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[zakco]

Hello all,

I was wondering if there is a need to listen to a CD-R master on a standalone consumer style CD player or if listening on my office PC with windows media player is OK? Could a CD-R play fine on WMP but still be unsuitable as a production master?

Btw, I'm using TY silvers on a plextor premium at 8x and doing quality checking AFTER running a plextools C1/C2/CU error test, so I already know that the error rate is acceptably low. (I'm getting C1 rates of .4 avg per second which I understand to be good.)

Thanks,

Zak Cohen - The Woodshop Studio

[bobkatz]

zakco wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 10:54

Hello all, I was wondering if there is a need to listen to a CD-R master on a standalone consumer style CD player or if listening on my office PC with windows media player is OK? Could a CD-R play fine on WMP but still be unsuitable as a production master? Btw, I'm using TY silvers on a plextor premium at 8x and doing quality checking AFTER running a plextools C1/C2/CU error test, so I already know that the error rate is acceptably low. (I'm getting C1 rates of .4 avg per second which I understand to be good.) Thanks, Zak Cohen - The Woodshop Studio

That's an excellent question. We don't do it. I guess because we've never had a reject on our Taiyos (also tested for low error rate) yet from plants. There is another factor that the error rate does not test, the RF level from the disc, and I think this affects the discs' readability in marginal players and older players that came out before CDRs. The RF level from a CDR is different than from a pressing. The plant is obviously going to use a good reader so they have an advantage.

[TotalSonic]

I just use a Denon "prosumer" player as it allows me to verify that any CD Text is correct at the same time also.  

I can't think of an issue where a disc properly burned correct to the book specs and verified to have low BLER and then listened through to confirm tha the audio was correct would have a problem in replication.  

If the master is good any issues that would make the replicated product unplayable in cheap players would most likely occur in plating of the glass or in the molding of the discs.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[zakco]

bobkatz wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 08:59

That's an excellent question. We don't do it. I guess because we've never had a reject on our Taiyos (also tested for low error rate) yet from plants. There is another factor that the error rate does not test, the RF level from the disc, and I think this affects the discs' readability in marginal players and older players that came out before CDRs. The RF level from a CDR is different than from a pressing. The plant is obviously going to use a good reader so they have an advantage.

Hi Bob,

After you've had a ref disc approved, do you send masters directly to the pressing plant or do they always go to the artist/producer/label for a listen first?

I'm also selling replication packages to some of my clients and there's something unsettling to me about sending the disc straight to the plant without the client hearing the actual production master and signing off...that's why I'm uptight about giving it a real world listen first.

By the way, I recently purchased your book, and I'm looking forward to digging into it this weekend.  

-Zak

[zakco]

TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 09:24

I just use a Denon "prosumer" player as it allows me to verify that any CD Text is correct at the same time also.

Good point.

Quote:

I can't think of an issue where a disc properly burned correct to the book specs and verified to have low BLER and then listened through to confirm tha the audio was correct would have a problem in replication.   If the master is good any issues that would make the replicated product unplayable in cheap players would most likely occur in plating of the glass or in the molding of the discs.

That's what I thought, but still I get a little anal about these things sometimes....

-Zak

[bobkatz]

zakco wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 15:56

bobkatz wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 08:59 That's an excellent question. We don't do it. I guess because we've never had a reject on our Taiyos (also tested for low error rate) yet from plants. There is another factor that the error rate does not test, the RF level from the disc, and I think this affects the discs' readability in marginal players and older players that came out before CDRs. The RF level from a CDR is different than from a pressing. The plant is obviously going to use a good reader so they have an advantage. Hi Bob, After you've had a ref disc approved, do you send masters directly to the pressing plant or do they always go to the artist/producer/label for a listen first?

The physical master is sealed in a plastic bag with a "do not open except at factory" sticker. A COPY of this master is what the artist/producer/label approve.

Quote:

I'm also selling replication packages to some of my clients and there's something unsettling to me about sending the disc straight to the plant without the client hearing the actual production master and signing off...that's why I'm uptight about giving it a real world listen first.

I go by the principle that if a copy of the master sounds good, then the master must be good! But if a client wants to listen to a master, I tell them that my guarantee against errors is void if there are any fingerprints on the CD but they can play it, handle it with care and put it back in the box if that's what they'd like.

Quote:

By the way, I recently purchased your book, and I'm looking forward to digging into it this weekend.

Wow, thank you very much!

BK

[dcollins]

bobkatz wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 14:57

The physical master is sealed in a plastic bag with a "do not open except at factory" sticker.

No briefcase with a handcuff, like 007?

Quote:

I go by the principle that if a copy of the master sounds good, then the master must be good!

Bzzzzzzzt!  

Someone, if not you, must listen to the master before it goes out!

Simple as that.

Quote:

But if a client wants to listen to a master, I tell them that my guarantee against errors is void if there are any fingerprints on the CD but they can play it, handle it with care and put it back in the box if that's what they'd like.

And I always thought the designers of CD made allowances for fingerprints.  

What a bunch of hacks!  

They laugh at your quarter-wave plate.

The customer will ultimately send a CD to the plant, and there is a pretty good chance it will work, even if the guy has to wipe it on his black t-shirt a couple times before putting it in the Plextor drive.........


DC

[Ronny]

If the master can't be loaded in due to abuse by the client. I'll send them another one. It's not like it's the end of the world. I used to send an open copy to client to dupe from and a sealed one directed for plant for the pressings, but I've come to the conclusion that the potential for abuse by the client mishandling is minimal, compared to the benefit of the client to audibly QC the same master that is going to the plant. It also eliminates the ME out of the equation, if the plant screws up.

[Jerry Tubb]

dcollins wrote on Fri, 09 September 2005 01:15

No briefcase with a handcuff, like 007?

Wasn't that in the movie "For Your Ears Only" ?

dcollins wrote on Fri, 09 September 2005 01:15

Bzzzzzzzt!   Someone, if not you, must listen to the master before it goes out! Simple as that.

Absolutely !

Ronny wrote on Fri, 09 September 2005 09:02

I've come to the conclusion that the potential for abuse by the client mishandling is minimal, compared to the benefit of the client to audibly QC the same master that is going to the plant. It also eliminates the ME out of the equation, if the plant screws up.

We simply don't have time to listen through to every master that goes out the door.

If you finish a disc at 3 a.m. and it has be somewhere at 9 a.m. ...no time.

So we spot check the ins & outs and do a Plextools test instead.

We include an alert message with the disc that it must be proofed before pressing.

We insist that the client, producer, artist, label, someone in-the-loop listen.

If it's a really important project, with a large pressing, of course we'll make time to proof it, even if it requires day late delivery.

But for every tight budget 1,000 disc pressing, there's not enough time.

That's the ugly truth, not utopian ideal, but honest reality,

I'll bet a lot of MEs handle it the same way.

[bobkatz]

dcollins wrote on Fri, 09 September 2005 02:15

bobkatz wrote on Thu, 08 September 2005 14:57 The physical master is sealed in a plastic bag with a "do not open except at factory" sticker. No briefcase with a handcuff, like 007?

No, just protection from DC's XRay vision.

Quote:

Quote: I go by the principle that if a copy of the master sounds good, then the master must be good! Bzzzzzzzt!   Someone, if not you, must listen to the master before it goes out! Simple as that.

I'm glad that you know you're right and I know I'm right. It's a very subtle distinction so watch the semantics fly:

The principle is that you have to make a copy at some time, so the time to do the audition is while you are cutting the copy. In the old days of PCM-1630 DMR with RAW heads you could listen to what was coming off of the read heads of the dub machine. What are you listening to then? The master or the copy? Does it matter?

In more detail:

Step one: During the mastering process there will be a 1X listen from start to finish. This will either be during a 1X cut of the physical master or to the file that will be transferred to the physical master.

Step one A: PQ code and cut the master if step one was to a capture file.

Step two: Test the master CDR for errors and load it back into an EDL onto hard disk using SADiE's import which copies the PQ codes from the master to a new EDL exactly. Test each of those Index marks, verify that the ISRC and CD text read correctly from that source.

Step three: Make a QC copy at 1X speed of the master from this EDL, while auditioning in headphones for noises, clicks, other problems. Since this is an  EXACT copy of the master and if it is approved, then the master must be good.  If there is a problem on the copy, the reverse is of course not necessarily true. If the client hears a problem on his copy we can go back to the copy image from the original master on our hard drive to listen to.

Step four: Pass the QC copy to the client for their approval. No one plays the master again until it reaches the plant.

Name one example of how there can be a problem or error in the master that will not appear on the copy? Give one example of how a 1X playback of the master for auditioning would be superior in any way to the above technique.

We've cut hundreds of masters in 3 years this way with no problems.

BK

[dcollins]

bobkatz wrote on Fri, 09 September 2005 14:41

I'm glad that you know you're right and I know I'm right. It's a very subtle distinction so watch the semantics fly:

Confidence is very important to mastering engineers.

I guess to summarize, the client is buying a master from me, not a copy, and I want that master to have undergone every test from errors to indexes to a real time listen of the actual production CDR......

Quote:

The principle is that you have to make a copy at some time, so the time to do the audition is while you are cutting the copy. In the old days of PCM-1630 DMR with RAW heads you could listen to what was coming off of the read heads of the dub machine. What are you listening to then?

Boy, two 1630 posts in one day...if this was a topic on Jeopardy I'd be in!

In the olden days of digital tape, uncorrected errors were not uncommon, and the read-after-write function was to allow real time error checking -- off tape listening actually came later and was far less important.

Today with good CDR technology I have literally never seen an uncorrected error on a master........

DC

[zakco]

bobkatz wrote on Fri, 09 September 2005 14:41

Step three: Make a QC copy at 1X speed of the master from this EDL, while auditioning in headphones for noises, clicks, other problems.

Does Sadie allow you to listen while burning a disc or are you using another method for that?

I'm using wavelab 5 and as far as I know there is no way to audition while burning in WL.

[TotalSonic]

dcollins wrote on Sat, 10 September 2005 03:24

Today with good CDR technology I have literally never seen an uncorrected error on a master........

At Europadisk we used to see CU's in masters from "amateur" productions all the time.  End result: a delay of days on their order as we sorted out either getting a new master in from the client - or just doing DAE for the entire image (using EAC in "secure" mode and then qc'ing at the timings E32's were listed on the pretest cue sheet) and burning a new master in the studio.

Usually the CD-R was branded something like "Staples" and if you put it up to the light you could see right through it.  Guess that doesn't count as "good" CD-R technology though!


Best regards,
Steve Berson

[dcollins]

TotalSonic wrote on Fri, 09 September 2005 21:05

Usually the CD-R was branded something like "Staples" and if you put it up to the light you could see right through it.  Guess that doesn't count as "good" CD-R technology though!

Infrared doesn't care if you have to wiggle it at an angle and squint to see the recording.

Folks should go for the big money in CDR's which may be as high as fourty cents American...

DC

[jackthebear]

Jerry Tubb wrote on Sat, 10 September 2005 02:20

If it's a really important project, with a large pressing, of course we'll make time to proof it, even if it requires day late delivery.

I thought every project was "really important" irrespective of whether it's 1 or 1,000,000 pressings. Sorry but I can't see how you can "make" time for some jobs and let some slide.