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Author Topic: when is too much?  (Read 9374 times)

Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2005, 04:02:49 PM »

I'm sure Steve (as his previous posts imply) is just as "feeling" about it as i am that just because someone hires him and his room to record them it's somehow produced by him and some sort of badge of honor that Steve worked with them. In no way do I imply any sort of negativity toward Steve's work, merely the fact that he is for hire and unfortunately some people want to hire a brand name to apply to the package rather than a smart, dedicated, philosophically steadfast, qualified person who will document their art.

It sickens me when bands say: We're recording with Engineer X this summer for our new EP;we're so proud he wants to work with us." I then ask if they are paying full rate and when they say yes i quickly try to get them to tell me why they are going 1,500 miles away to do an independent EP. Usually the brand comes up before the REAL reason they should be going through the effort.which is to work with someone who can realize their vision for them. I guess A&R mooks are the same way with "name" mixers.

It's the difference between a hot blonde offering you a hummer on the subway out of the blue or hiring a hooker to make it look that way. Either way the results will be relatively the same, just don't brag about how you got one and leave out the part that you paid for the privelidge. I digress.

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Fibes
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"You can like it, or not like it."
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TheViking

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2005, 06:00:18 PM »

I'm a grid guy so by admitting that, I've just lost all scene respect from most of you, I'm sure.   LOL!

I think of guys back in the day who were rock solid players.   You used to make great sounding records without these tools because the level of playing was so much more serious.   These were musicians by the finest stretch - they knew if they were off time and they didn't need a click track to tell them either!   I think it's a testiment to where we are as musicians nowadays.   Excellence isn't strived for...   we settle for 'good enough' - not just in the studio, but in general!

Grid is not evil...   it's an 'in-case' tool for me.   Some bands feel great playing together.   Some bands don't.   I don't have the luxury of turning away work because of this or that...   I have to make it work.   I feel that the hardest thing I have to do as a producer is discern between good feel and poor execution.   The grid aids me in these kinds of decisions - not because I am slave to it - but because it gives me a point of reference in those cases where I'm having a hard time deciding between feel and suck.

I'm gonna go kiss my wife and pet my cats before you guys come to drag me out of my home and burn me at the stake...   later.

The Vike
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2005, 10:48:35 PM »

you're tossing yourself into the fire for something that we aren't hunting for.

you admittedly cut to the grid.  but based on my conversation with ross, he mentioned, and i've seen it to, guys that cut to the grid before they even listen to the take.

they haven't a cluw if it feels good or not, or if it needs 10 more takes and the drummer would have nailed it....they just hit stop and start cutting.

that's when your preception of "how things are done" interferes with your ability to make a great record.

i'm looking for the polar oppostie of that person.

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NelsonL

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2005, 11:03:36 AM »

First off, any choices that are made without actually listening are questionable at best.

If I can veer slightly off topic-- the grid is a tool and can be used creatively or destructively.

I find it useful for any number of things-- but in particular comping vocals and solos etc.

For me, punch-ins don't really fit my work flow anymore, I just record a track hoping for a perfect take and then comp something together if we can't get it in a single pass. The grid makes it really easy to drag and drop a composite together.

So in this instance, I'm actually using the grid to insure that the timing stays true to the original performance. That way nothing gets nudged by accident as can easily happen in slip mode.

I know we're not really picking on the gird here in particular, I think most of us would agree that once you decide to use a click track the grid isn't far behind.

So, uh, don't blame the grid blame the engineer abusing the grid.

Anyway, I actually use it the least on drums.
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2005, 11:25:36 AM »

brad and i got into a huge conversation (we weren't arguing) about autotune being the downfall of talented singers and thus promoting the labels to look less for talent and more for looks.

brad's point was that autotune is merely a tool that is being abused.  my point (and an admittedly extreme view to keep conversation going) was that the existence of autotune itself actually promotes abuse.

personally, i think brad is totally right.  we have tools that we use to make records sound a certain way as filtered through our own ears and brain.

the grid is not bad......neither is beat detective, or sound replacer/app trigga

it's the abuse, or mis-use of these things that have led to where we are now.

rattleyour, why are you comping in PT like that.

there is a much easier way to do it.

in the edit window next to each track name is an arrow.  click and hold on that, and select "new track", name the new track the same title and the take number.  keep doing that for each new pass you do.

when you are ready to comp.  make a new track called "guitar solo comp"

when you go to say take 1 you can grab what you want, when you move back to the comp track your selection (highlighted area) stays identical, you just hit apple v and it's exactly in the same place you had it before.

comp away, it's a brilliant and easy way to keep the edit window less jumbled, and fast for comping.
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NelsonL

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2005, 11:53:17 AM »

I shouldn't have said drag and drop, I am mostly using cut and paste. I don't copy because I like to see the gaps where I've taken audio from a track, it provides a visual record of what I've done.

Key commands are fine, but I do wish PT supported right clicking now that it works on OS X with an after market mouse.

The grid means I never have to worry about where to put the cursor. It is pretty quick and easy, but I don't doubt there's a better way.

I'll have to try your way to really understand how it works, sounds good though.

Does the "create new track" function copy the I/O settings from the track you select and create a new track in the session? You just need to name it and it's ready to go? Or is this some way to toggle between different takes that reside on the same track? Not sure I understand, which isn't a big surprise, I'm pretty low tech in my approach to PT.

I usually have a bunch of tracks ready at the start of the session, Vox 1, Vox 2, etc. Then I record 3-4 takes and comp them later on. I just pick the best full take and replace parts of it by comping as necessay.

All the leftover stuff after the comp gets made inactive.

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Invisible Member

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2005, 01:12:03 PM »



If your looking for a person who is a polar opposite of the OCD Editor it would be me. I have gotten into a few heated arguments about my dogmatic methodologies of edit free recordings. I despise editing for several reasons. IMO the groove and chemistry of the song you expect to hear in live setting must have a relationship to the band. Songs have a life and editing is like trying to make a picture from small remotely related photographs or paint by numbers. I believe it is in the musicians best "long term" interest to actually learn to keep time at least in 3 to 4 minute increments. I beleive it is in the musicians best interest to actually know how to play thier instrument. Bean counter's and lawyers are like a disease infesting music, and they are removing the art aspect with their evil tactics to maximize shareholder value.  Being a lefthanded, ADHD, musician and engineer I tend to be outside of normal guidlines anyhow when it comes to opinions and fitting in.  

Yes I hate sitting still in a chair moving clips nearly infinitesimal amounts when my definition of perfect is the result of rare chemical and energy reactions            
spontaneously uniting but for a moment.


I recently after a 20+ year hiatus from the drums started playing again. As painful as it is I record myself practicing and critique the groove and the timing. I was asked to join a band and the guitarist is a Cut-N-Paster, tremendously talented editor, musician etc...

Even my poor drumming skills on 16 track 1 inch wipes his sample-ized creations. IMO of coarse Smile

Peace,
Dennis
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2005, 01:32:47 PM »

rattleyour wrote on Thu, 19 May 2005 10:53


Or is this some way to toggle between different takes that reside on the same track?



yes!

it happens within the actually track you select "new track" to happen on.

all the audio that pertains to each "take" will only play if you have selected that "take" to be in the edit window.

to view all the takes you have made, you simply click on that arrow button to "make new track" and all the "takes" you have are selectable for you to bring back up and hear/look at.

even in grid mode (which is a good idea if you cut to a click) you can comp so much faster this way.  and you can blow that track up to jumbo (easy on the eyes) and not have to scroll all over the place to find the other takes you want.  it's all right there in front of you.

also, if you highlight a section you are looking for a part to put in, as you bring up the different "takes" the highlighted area stays the same so you can instantly audition the takes you have as they pertain to that particular section, once you find it, you already have it highlighted so you just hit apple x, move back to your comp take and hit apple v.....

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NelsonL

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2005, 01:44:38 PM »

J.--

Good stuff, thanks!  

Oddly enough, I've had clients tell me I'm fast at this stuff.

Compared to who?!
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recorderman

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2005, 02:34:54 PM »

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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2005, 03:13:30 PM »

cool, but were those decisions made by the recordist with out any thought or care about what the band is about, what they are playing, or how they are playing?
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recorderman

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2005, 03:31:35 PM »

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jimmyjazz

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2005, 03:53:59 PM »

When is that record coming out?  Are they signed?  I'd like to hear it.  The website is mighty vague.
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eligit

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2005, 10:19:15 AM »

just an outside opinion here.

it depends.  different bands just have different goals and aesthetics.

that being said there is NOTHING like a great band playing at the same time with the constant live energy and flux that occurs.  this includes inconsistancies in time and tone that i guess are just not considered "professional" anymore.  on the other hand if the drummer is not a great musician then his (or her) inconsistancies may add nothing to the proceedings (except maybe that sometimes endearing "flawed" thing which can add humanity).

there is also nothing like a complete vocal take.  as soon as comping happens i think we gain "perfection" but loose the emotional continuity.  i always respond more to live emotional continuity over "perfection" which can end up being boring.  when the drummer is as tight and "perfect" as a drum machine i think something is lost. and yet this seems to be the goal of "the grid". the drums are not right until they "groove" as regularly as the click/drum machine.

for any of this to mean anything it would require many more kick ass bands that are used to playing together a LOT and a change in what is the goal of a recording. in other words the whole industry would have to change.

not likely.

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Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2005, 03:24:46 PM »

Watch the Tom Dowd film and pay a lot of attention to the Allman bros.  and Booker T segments.
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Fibes
-------------------------------------------------
"You can like it, or not like it."
The Studio

  http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewArtist ?id=155759887
http://cdbaby.com/cd/superhorse
http://cdbaby.com/cd/superhorse2

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