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Author Topic: when is too much?  (Read 9299 times)

j.hall

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when is too much?
« on: May 18, 2005, 10:40:06 AM »

i was thinking last night after to hanging up the phone with Ross Hogarth about something we taled about a both agreed on.

we were complaing about records that are cut to a grid, and just edited to the point of tempo perfection, and how that just completely destroys the human element to making music, which of course is art.  

and IMO, art requires imperfections in order to be expressive.  that might be an extreme view, but i'll stick with it.

so we hung up and i thought about the inverse of that conversation.

chopping drums without even listening to the take is the extreme on one side.  but what about being so determined to create a monumental piece of art that you go completely off the deep end, the other way.

can their be an extreme the other way?

if so, what is it?  what are some examples of it?

i believe there is an extreme on that side, but i can't name what it would be or an example of it.  so i'm curious..............

the only thing i could think of was mars volta.  as over indulgent as it is, i don't think it falls short of being reaching it's goal, and being a good record.
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Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2005, 11:34:19 AM »

Sometimes it's not easy to get the stuff in the artists head to translate to the outside world, whatever it takes to do that isn't going overboard IMO. The overboard part is when someone outside of the flow injects their idea of perfection into the formula. As the band CAN used to say "man is imperfect and therefore perfection can only happen by accident." Once you grab the blade, all bets are off...

BTW J. after you spoke to me last night not one ounce of AT was used on that vocalist. Once he warmed up the shit was kicking and he's only 17. If he keeps on the path he will be the next Paul Rodgers or that dude from Badfinger. I just can't beleive those teens are drawing from those particular influences. It was refreshing and the songs were damn good. Back to Screamo tonite.
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2005, 11:40:41 AM »

hahahaha

that's funny.....i just mentioned it in passing...

and i knew i forgot to talk to you about something.  this was the topic.

oh well, i was busy looking for baby oatmeal....stupid gorcery store.

i'm looking for an example of the opposite end of editing and chopping out of habit.

it's like all the rock records today have a dogma attached to their production.  no matter what the material is the engineer just instantly starts chopping to a grid.  there is no forethought, it's a blind impulse driven by what the think is the "rule" for production.

i think there is an opposite to that.  some one who intentionally makes records that push the line between happy accident and straight up bad playing because they feel so convicted by their own thoughts and ideas about what "art" is, they have been blinded to what is happening in the tracking rooms.

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el duderino

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2005, 11:42:30 AM »

i'd guess that it would be wildly wandering tempo. i mean tha would be the opposite of perfect timing to a grid right?

I hate grids. I hate click tracks. and I really hate the fact that the people in charge feel they are a necessity.

whats that michael wagner quote? we're selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid.
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xonlocust

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2005, 11:54:09 AM »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 09:40

chopping drums without even listening to the take is the extreme on one side.  but what about being so determined to create a monumental piece of art that you go completely off the deep end, the other way.

can their be an extreme the other way?

if so, what is it?  what are some examples of it?

i believe there is an extreme on that side, but i can't name what it would be or an example of it.  so i'm curious..............



my mind was fucking floored the first time i heard the drums on u.s. maple, long hair in three stages...  i still think it's thier best record. it was the first "band" jim o'rourke recorded.  everything about that record turned what i throught a band or record was sposed to be upside down.

http://www.mp3.com/albums/179124/summary.html

skin graft put out some amazing shit back then.

same thing with brise-glace - the first time i heard super trashy mono mic compressed room drum sounds double tracked against another part simultaneously... some fucking insane textures...

http://www.mp3.com/brise-glace/artists/35788/summary.html

the camp skin graft comp would be a great place for anyone trying to get a good cross section of the wierdo shit going on around then in chicago.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000019FZ/qid%3D1116 437972/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-4586575-7572729

but that whole skin graft/no wave scene is the best example i know of recent times that was super indulgent for arts sake and clearly never had any intention of "moving units". highly recommended stuff - you can even get one used for 4$!  a lot of that stuff is what originally brought me to chicago.

Fig

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2005, 12:15:39 PM »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 10:40



i'm looking for an example of the opposite end of editing and chopping out of habit.





I do not exhibit this habit, personally. Twisted Evil

Regarding opposites of grids and auto tuners, check out "Just a Little Tuna" from The Paul Wertico Trio on the _Don't Be Scared Anymore_ CD, released by Premonition Records:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004W55X/qid =1116438686/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl15/103-1911520-53582 61?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

The bass player played trumpet (poorly - though Eric is an accomplished trumpeter), Paul dropped sticks and made mis-hits on the kit, tuning issues, timing.  Its a gas!

That record was done on three ailing ADATS, no cut/copy/paste, I assure you.  The rest of the album was done to a click (perhaps locate _Modern Drummer_ October 2000 for the skinny on the making of the album - its got Jon Fishman on the cover).

Now I hear he uses Sonar, there goes the neighborhood - he lives down the street from my studio. Razz

I'm currently in the middle of a "free-jazz" project involving a guitar synthesizer and a twisted mind.  Slow going but surely not on any kind of grid - true "expessionism" through synthesis with zero musical phrases or rhythms.  Challenging.

Takes all kinds, I suppose.

Fig
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Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2005, 01:10:45 PM »

Just pick up a Jandek record... Hahahahaha!

I've recorded bands that purposely told me things like : "I'm a singer, i can't sing but i want as much energy as possible on these tracks so let's record three takes with breaks in between and choose the best one with leanings on the first."

CAN only improvised, hence a chance at perfection.

Jad Fair, Eugene Chadborne and some of that Chicago no-wave stuff comes to mind. In a way Sebadoh did the same thing.

What was that Royal Trucks record that had "Stawberry soda pop" on it? It was on Drag City and IMO perfectly walked the slop line right down to the song titles being in the wrong order on the packaging. It's a tricky listen but the gems are in there.

I still wanna edit the drum breakdown where the KIK stutters in the "song thingy" because it kills the theta wave aspects of it for me. But i won't.

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pg666

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2005, 01:52:18 PM »

Quote:

my mind was fucking floored the first time i heard the drums on u.s. maple, long hair in three stages... i still think it's thier best record. it was the first "band" jim o'rourke recorded. everything about that record turned what i throught a band or record was sposed to be upside down.



i immediately thought of Stormandstress when reading this thread, who have done 1 record with jim o'rourke and 1 with steve albini. besides having no real rhythms or song structure (there are subtle melodies), the dynamics range from quiet enough to hear the amps buzzing to 'explosion'; sometimes within seconds of each other. i think that is about as "anti-modern music" as you get (and a little extreme for my taste quite frankly.)

i think trying to create mistakes for some type of humanity factor or whatever is lame. 'Good mistakes' are the type of things that happen when you play live or practice a lot and realize that certain things, although technically 'wrong', add excitement to the moment.




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Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2005, 02:05:31 PM »

After playing a few shows with Storm and Stress i became bored to tears, only after realizing how many unstructured songs had this thing called structure. That and the fact he wore his SG up so high it gave everyone a nosebleed.
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2005, 02:07:14 PM »

seems like we have a lot of examples about art for the sake of art and not some stricht dogma type approach to "hands off" i'll take whatever you give me intentionally.

i think the copy/paste/chop shop guys are doing this by habit now.   or more so....it's like a dogma they just adhere to because to them, this is the way it's always been and will always be.

so, on that note, i'm looking for their polar opposite.  some one who absolutely refuses to fix mistakes or do much of anything to personalize a recording, becuase they are so set into some self made up mindset that they can not approach a band uniquely.

this is all coming from the the classic idea of, "if this exists, it's opposite must exist as well....to balance it out."

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rdwilkins

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2005, 02:12:56 PM »

A shameless plug but the band I manage, formerly "DQE" and now going by their leader's name, Grace Braun, walk that line.  In fact they did an album with Jad Fair and their 2nd album was produced by Albini.  Although I have to admit they've gotten relatively "smoothed out" in the last few years but certainly not "slick".  The bottom line for Grace is to get her songs out there and move on and this seems to give her albums a sense of urgency and honesty that's pretty rare.  It was also cool that the last time we played SXSW we had Jad, Daniel Johnston (an old friend/fan of Grace's) and other like-minded people in the crowd.
Alright I'm done with the plug.
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Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2005, 02:39:59 PM »

Anyone that focuses on live remote recording will lean further that way. i suppose Albini leans that way. I'd still like to think that there are more of us "clerks" than powermad fixers with an agenda.

The bluegrass, clasical and jazz worlds are where most of the hands off cats can survive, where soundstaging and reality havn't been consumed by hyper-reality.



RD,
I vaguely remember a strange incident with Dairy Queen Empire's front person and Andy Pierce of Size 10 Jaw. Ahhh those were the days, the days when i didn't remember much of anything.
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rdwilkins

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2005, 02:57:59 PM »

yeah that incident was pretty insane.  I didn't know about it until Grace's current husband Dugan (also drummer in the band) told me the details...
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2005, 03:16:58 PM »

rdwilkins wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 13:12

.....and their 2nd album was produced by Albini.  


i wonder what steve would say about taking a "producer" credit.

he seems so diametrically opposed to that title and all that it stands for.

maybe he is the opposite of the chop shop.
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rdwilkins

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2005, 03:54:37 PM »

Yeah, I actually mis-spoke there.  Album was actually produced by the band "with" Albini, among others.
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Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2005, 04:02:49 PM »

I'm sure Steve (as his previous posts imply) is just as "feeling" about it as i am that just because someone hires him and his room to record them it's somehow produced by him and some sort of badge of honor that Steve worked with them. In no way do I imply any sort of negativity toward Steve's work, merely the fact that he is for hire and unfortunately some people want to hire a brand name to apply to the package rather than a smart, dedicated, philosophically steadfast, qualified person who will document their art.

It sickens me when bands say: We're recording with Engineer X this summer for our new EP;we're so proud he wants to work with us." I then ask if they are paying full rate and when they say yes i quickly try to get them to tell me why they are going 1,500 miles away to do an independent EP. Usually the brand comes up before the REAL reason they should be going through the effort.which is to work with someone who can realize their vision for them. I guess A&R mooks are the same way with "name" mixers.

It's the difference between a hot blonde offering you a hummer on the subway out of the blue or hiring a hooker to make it look that way. Either way the results will be relatively the same, just don't brag about how you got one and leave out the part that you paid for the privelidge. I digress.

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TheViking

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2005, 06:00:18 PM »

I'm a grid guy so by admitting that, I've just lost all scene respect from most of you, I'm sure.   LOL!

I think of guys back in the day who were rock solid players.   You used to make great sounding records without these tools because the level of playing was so much more serious.   These were musicians by the finest stretch - they knew if they were off time and they didn't need a click track to tell them either!   I think it's a testiment to where we are as musicians nowadays.   Excellence isn't strived for...   we settle for 'good enough' - not just in the studio, but in general!

Grid is not evil...   it's an 'in-case' tool for me.   Some bands feel great playing together.   Some bands don't.   I don't have the luxury of turning away work because of this or that...   I have to make it work.   I feel that the hardest thing I have to do as a producer is discern between good feel and poor execution.   The grid aids me in these kinds of decisions - not because I am slave to it - but because it gives me a point of reference in those cases where I'm having a hard time deciding between feel and suck.

I'm gonna go kiss my wife and pet my cats before you guys come to drag me out of my home and burn me at the stake...   later.

The Vike
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2005, 10:48:35 PM »

you're tossing yourself into the fire for something that we aren't hunting for.

you admittedly cut to the grid.  but based on my conversation with ross, he mentioned, and i've seen it to, guys that cut to the grid before they even listen to the take.

they haven't a cluw if it feels good or not, or if it needs 10 more takes and the drummer would have nailed it....they just hit stop and start cutting.

that's when your preception of "how things are done" interferes with your ability to make a great record.

i'm looking for the polar oppostie of that person.

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NelsonL

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2005, 11:03:36 AM »

First off, any choices that are made without actually listening are questionable at best.

If I can veer slightly off topic-- the grid is a tool and can be used creatively or destructively.

I find it useful for any number of things-- but in particular comping vocals and solos etc.

For me, punch-ins don't really fit my work flow anymore, I just record a track hoping for a perfect take and then comp something together if we can't get it in a single pass. The grid makes it really easy to drag and drop a composite together.

So in this instance, I'm actually using the grid to insure that the timing stays true to the original performance. That way nothing gets nudged by accident as can easily happen in slip mode.

I know we're not really picking on the gird here in particular, I think most of us would agree that once you decide to use a click track the grid isn't far behind.

So, uh, don't blame the grid blame the engineer abusing the grid.

Anyway, I actually use it the least on drums.
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2005, 11:25:36 AM »

brad and i got into a huge conversation (we weren't arguing) about autotune being the downfall of talented singers and thus promoting the labels to look less for talent and more for looks.

brad's point was that autotune is merely a tool that is being abused.  my point (and an admittedly extreme view to keep conversation going) was that the existence of autotune itself actually promotes abuse.

personally, i think brad is totally right.  we have tools that we use to make records sound a certain way as filtered through our own ears and brain.

the grid is not bad......neither is beat detective, or sound replacer/app trigga

it's the abuse, or mis-use of these things that have led to where we are now.

rattleyour, why are you comping in PT like that.

there is a much easier way to do it.

in the edit window next to each track name is an arrow.  click and hold on that, and select "new track", name the new track the same title and the take number.  keep doing that for each new pass you do.

when you are ready to comp.  make a new track called "guitar solo comp"

when you go to say take 1 you can grab what you want, when you move back to the comp track your selection (highlighted area) stays identical, you just hit apple v and it's exactly in the same place you had it before.

comp away, it's a brilliant and easy way to keep the edit window less jumbled, and fast for comping.
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NelsonL

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2005, 11:53:17 AM »

I shouldn't have said drag and drop, I am mostly using cut and paste. I don't copy because I like to see the gaps where I've taken audio from a track, it provides a visual record of what I've done.

Key commands are fine, but I do wish PT supported right clicking now that it works on OS X with an after market mouse.

The grid means I never have to worry about where to put the cursor. It is pretty quick and easy, but I don't doubt there's a better way.

I'll have to try your way to really understand how it works, sounds good though.

Does the "create new track" function copy the I/O settings from the track you select and create a new track in the session? You just need to name it and it's ready to go? Or is this some way to toggle between different takes that reside on the same track? Not sure I understand, which isn't a big surprise, I'm pretty low tech in my approach to PT.

I usually have a bunch of tracks ready at the start of the session, Vox 1, Vox 2, etc. Then I record 3-4 takes and comp them later on. I just pick the best full take and replace parts of it by comping as necessay.

All the leftover stuff after the comp gets made inactive.

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Invisible Member

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2005, 01:12:03 PM »



If your looking for a person who is a polar opposite of the OCD Editor it would be me. I have gotten into a few heated arguments about my dogmatic methodologies of edit free recordings. I despise editing for several reasons. IMO the groove and chemistry of the song you expect to hear in live setting must have a relationship to the band. Songs have a life and editing is like trying to make a picture from small remotely related photographs or paint by numbers. I believe it is in the musicians best "long term" interest to actually learn to keep time at least in 3 to 4 minute increments. I beleive it is in the musicians best interest to actually know how to play thier instrument. Bean counter's and lawyers are like a disease infesting music, and they are removing the art aspect with their evil tactics to maximize shareholder value.  Being a lefthanded, ADHD, musician and engineer I tend to be outside of normal guidlines anyhow when it comes to opinions and fitting in.  

Yes I hate sitting still in a chair moving clips nearly infinitesimal amounts when my definition of perfect is the result of rare chemical and energy reactions            
spontaneously uniting but for a moment.


I recently after a 20+ year hiatus from the drums started playing again. As painful as it is I record myself practicing and critique the groove and the timing. I was asked to join a band and the guitarist is a Cut-N-Paster, tremendously talented editor, musician etc...

Even my poor drumming skills on 16 track 1 inch wipes his sample-ized creations. IMO of coarse Smile

Peace,
Dennis
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2005, 01:32:47 PM »

rattleyour wrote on Thu, 19 May 2005 10:53


Or is this some way to toggle between different takes that reside on the same track?



yes!

it happens within the actually track you select "new track" to happen on.

all the audio that pertains to each "take" will only play if you have selected that "take" to be in the edit window.

to view all the takes you have made, you simply click on that arrow button to "make new track" and all the "takes" you have are selectable for you to bring back up and hear/look at.

even in grid mode (which is a good idea if you cut to a click) you can comp so much faster this way.  and you can blow that track up to jumbo (easy on the eyes) and not have to scroll all over the place to find the other takes you want.  it's all right there in front of you.

also, if you highlight a section you are looking for a part to put in, as you bring up the different "takes" the highlighted area stays the same so you can instantly audition the takes you have as they pertain to that particular section, once you find it, you already have it highlighted so you just hit apple x, move back to your comp take and hit apple v.....

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NelsonL

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2005, 01:44:38 PM »

J.--

Good stuff, thanks!  

Oddly enough, I've had clients tell me I'm fast at this stuff.

Compared to who?!
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recorderman

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2005, 02:34:54 PM »

 Shocked
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2005, 03:13:30 PM »

cool, but were those decisions made by the recordist with out any thought or care about what the band is about, what they are playing, or how they are playing?
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recorderman

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2005, 03:31:35 PM »

 Shocked
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jimmyjazz

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2005, 03:53:59 PM »

When is that record coming out?  Are they signed?  I'd like to hear it.  The website is mighty vague.
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eligit

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2005, 10:19:15 AM »

just an outside opinion here.

it depends.  different bands just have different goals and aesthetics.

that being said there is NOTHING like a great band playing at the same time with the constant live energy and flux that occurs.  this includes inconsistancies in time and tone that i guess are just not considered "professional" anymore.  on the other hand if the drummer is not a great musician then his (or her) inconsistancies may add nothing to the proceedings (except maybe that sometimes endearing "flawed" thing which can add humanity).

there is also nothing like a complete vocal take.  as soon as comping happens i think we gain "perfection" but loose the emotional continuity.  i always respond more to live emotional continuity over "perfection" which can end up being boring.  when the drummer is as tight and "perfect" as a drum machine i think something is lost. and yet this seems to be the goal of "the grid". the drums are not right until they "groove" as regularly as the click/drum machine.

for any of this to mean anything it would require many more kick ass bands that are used to playing together a LOT and a change in what is the goal of a recording. in other words the whole industry would have to change.

not likely.

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Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2005, 03:24:46 PM »

Watch the Tom Dowd film and pay a lot of attention to the Allman bros.  and Booker T segments.
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j.hall

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2005, 08:05:47 AM »

i think the answer is that there really isn't an extreme opposite to editing without listening.
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craig boychuk

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2005, 09:55:01 AM »

Dennis the menace wrote on Thu, 19 May 2005 12:12

 I beleive it is in the musicians best interest to actually know how to play thier instrument.



Shit yeah.


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lord

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2005, 11:31:46 AM »

This is not an answer to the original question, but a reaction to a lot of the comments so far. It is sure is fun to constantly blame musicians who can't play or seem to be hapless in a recording situation.

I believe that most rock musicians are hapless these days because of the enormously complex filter between what they play and what they played sounds like on a record.

Really, there is next to no resemblance between what someone hears out of their amplifier and the wall of 8x double-tracked processed-to-hell shit that some goon like slipperman will cook up. How is a guitarist supposed to know what the fuck he should even be doing?

It is even worse for drummers, as not only will the final sounds be radically different from what is hitting his ears, but the actual placement of the hits will be moved too.  This is an even bigger filter.

And you wonder why some are lost, or seem not to feel responsible for what they play anymore? Unless you have a LOT of experience at it, the whole thing is an abstraction.

Never forget that this is ultimately the fault of ENGINEERS, not musicians, that things get done this way.

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Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2005, 12:19:59 PM »

I agree and the prob is hyper-reality is the new reality, fuck that. back to a recent project... Although they are young (16-18)with the inherent problems of inexperienced youth, i'm digging the rawness/reality of this band that tracked everything live (they asked for it that way)and refused to do any overdubs. sure, they sound like badfinger mixed with Bad Company but so what, it's real. Mixing it is a breeze because it's an actual performance (albeit flawed)and there isn't any trickery involved.

"If you close your eyes and can imagine the band playing on top of the console in front of you, congtatulations, you've made a recording."---Stephen Paul

Things just aren't that way anymore.
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Fibes
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lord

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2005, 01:07:45 PM »

Fibes wrote on Tue, 24 May 2005 12:19

Things just aren't that way anymore.


Not in rock.

Think the level of interest in electronic music these days might have something to do with the fact that musicians are in direct control of the sound production?

Think new genres are on the way where people can regain some semblance of musicianship, without regressive nostalgia. (Bluegrass. Southern rock. Whatever!)

I am not hung up on "reality" nor the "old way", so much as what it means to return the actual means of sound production to the musician.
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wwittman

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2005, 01:50:48 PM »

I tend to believe that the reason many musicians "can't play" today (or at least cannot play TOGETHER like a band) is that they way too soon get caught up in RECORDING.
They buy an MBox and start worrying about buying mics and effects and plug-ins and worrying about how so-and-so got this-or-that sound and which mic pres they "need" for metal and so on...
instead of being a MUSICIAN for a good long while and getting good at it.

But the basic question isn't answerable.
How much is too much overdubbing? Shouldn't the band play live?
How much is too much arranging? Shouldn't they play intuitively?
Too much of anything is possible... but it's really only taste as to how much is too much and how much is helpful.

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Fibes

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2005, 01:53:38 PM »

I agree.


The bottom line for me is the performance which has been turned into an afterthought. You can make bad good but you can't make it scream. being patient and waiting for that moment is a hell of a lot more fun than the lonely game of digital editing. I guess that's why i like fishing, it's the thrill of the unknown. Y'all can have your processed fish, i take mine raw with soy sauce...

I've been recording and mixing a lot of bluegrass lately, some trad and some with the jazz aesthetic and i'll be damned if everyone of those mofos isn't burning down the house without batting an eyelash.

Hearing Sam bush, Dave Grisman, tony Williamson, Don steirnberg, tony trishka, David greer and a host of others playing the Russian Rag was mindnumbing. 6 mandolins, a mandocello, guitar , bass and fiddle all playing that tune killed me. Metal dudes couldn't hang.

 
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NelsonL

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2005, 03:24:08 PM »

Bluegrass is certainly alive and well. I've also had the privelage of hearing Grisman up close lately and its an absolutely amazing experience.

Isn't electronic music just nostalgia for the future instead of the past. I almost think its a false distinction.

Honestly though, originality is only one part of the equation. The world is full of highly original art work that doesn't speak to me at all. If it's not engaging then I have no use for it.

Don't mean to sound close-minded, I just don't think genre should define taste, that's the cart leading the horse to me.
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lord

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2005, 04:15:04 PM »

Rattles, I think you read me wrong. I did not mean to denigrate bluegrass (I did mean to denigrate southern rock).

But I would love to see more 10-piece bands with mandolins and banjos not doing 80 year old tunes about trains.

There is trouble with anything is that it is so steeped in the tradition that it is hard to escape the "old ways."  I would argue that bluegrass is sometimes recorded with one mic for the same reason that rock drums are edited now. (HA! I did it) Because, that's the way it was done. And we all have a pretty good idea in our heads of what that should sound like.

For me, originality is about escaping that limitation of conforming to the tradition. It's about what you can accomplish if you don't -- not just being different for its own sake.

In this case, I'm talking about escaping the tradition where the engineer is more responsible for the drum part than the drummer. Because we've fucked up rock so badly, it might take a whole new commercial genre for that to become acceptable again.
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NelsonL

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2005, 05:31:03 PM »

I think I know where you're coming from-- I don't mean to contradict you.

I just chimed in because Bluegrass is so refreshing compared to the trappings of rock these days. I certainly won't be defending southern rock here any time soon.

I'm realizing more and more that not every musician is meant to be a song writer. So I guess when you get 6 of those guys in a room you pretty much have to lean on genre convention.

I mean, although we've (us as a group at J's joint) never all been able to agree what Indie Rock means-- I think we all end up at this forum in particular because of our mistrust of any "that's just the way it's done" type solutions.

Rock is a mess. A friend of mine, who makes his living playing in a rock band, predicted a few years ago that Rock will eventually descend to the level of Jazz in popularity. I think he has a point, I also think that might be good for the genre in the long run. In fact sometimes I think that's what Indie Rock really is, the decay of "Big Rock" into something on a more appropriate scale. Although, it does need a name less evocative of ringer tees IMHO.

I think a lot of people like music, but I'm less and less convinced that that many people really love it. I guess that's ok, there are too many horrible bands as it is. I can't imagine feeling this way about music and not wanting to play, that's beyond me.

I think Originality is really only a horizon, you can't really ever get there without moving the line. And I don't think history always remembers the people who do things first, more likely it favors those who do things around the same time and move the most units or have the best publicist.

Oh man, I'm rambling here. Sorry folks.
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lord

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2005, 08:25:06 PM »

rattleyour wrote on Tue, 24 May 2005 17:31

I think Originality is really only a horizon, you can't really ever get there without moving the line. And I don't think history always remembers the people who do things first, more likely it favors those who do things around the same time and move the most units or have the best publicist.



No, that's fantastic. You are right. Original music with a big 'O' is obviously an apparition at best, a delusion at worst. I have wondered where it comes from.

I can only conclude that it is hard-wired into some musicians the same way that the compulsion to perform is. The need to evolve or push things forward is a basic instinct. It's got to come from somewhere, cause in this day and age, it certainly doesn't seem to correlate with sales.
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rdwilkins

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2005, 08:47:39 AM »

Also good to remember that while originality "resides" in many folks there are dramatic differences in those who exploit this to the fullest and those that are just able to harness it once in a while.  Witness a prolific artist like Dylan who's been able to write 100s of songs versus (many) people we all know who have maybe one or two good albums in them and spend the rest of their career trying in vain to capture the feeling of said albums again.
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maxdimario

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2005, 10:36:12 AM »

Originality is not as important as being able to make a sound that will entertain and hook the listener.

the quest for originality at all costs is just a result of the onset of mass marketing and a flooded marketplace.

What we need is more general-purpose 'desert island' type bands.

changing fashions are meant to create demand for new product, but music is not clothing, or automobiles.

Innovation in itself is harmful to music, if it means throwing out the baby with the bathwater.





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bloodstone

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2005, 05:09:55 AM »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 16:40

hahahaha

that's funny.....i just mentioned it in passing...

and i knew i forgot to talk to you about something.  this was the topic.

oh well, i was busy looking for baby oatmeal....stupid gorcery store.

i'm looking for an example of the opposite end of editing and chopping out of habit.

it's like all the rock records today have a dogma attached to their production.  no matter what the material is the engineer just instantly starts chopping to a grid.  there is no forethought, it's a blind impulse driven by what the think is the "rule" for production.

i think there is an opposite to that.  some one who intentionally makes records that push the line between happy accident and straight up bad playing because they feel so convicted by their own thoughts and ideas about what "art" is, they have been blinded to what is happening in the tracking rooms.




Toward the happy accident end of the spectrum, Exile on Main Street by the Rolling Stones comes to mind.  To a lesser degree, Let It Be by The Beatles.  Most of Pavement's recordings might fall in that category, but probably more from a lack of proficiency than intention.
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Guasp

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2005, 02:52:13 PM »

You should definitely check out GIANT SAND or anyhting Howe gelb related. Definitley exemplifies the "otherside" of the spectrum....the albums are mostly built on these happy accidents. I believe John Parish produced and played on the last one.
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rdwilkins

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Re: when is too much?
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2005, 04:35:45 PM »

Richard Buckner's albums done with related folks and produced by J.D. Foster also lean in that direction.
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