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[j.hall]

i was thinking last night after to hanging up the phone with Ross Hogarth about something we taled about a both agreed on.

we were complaing about records that are cut to a grid, and just edited to the point of tempo perfection, and how that just completely destroys the human element to making music, which of course is art.  

and IMO, art requires imperfections in order to be expressive.  that might be an extreme view, but i'll stick with it.

so we hung up and i thought about the inverse of that conversation.

chopping drums without even listening to the take is the extreme on one side.  but what about being so determined to create a monumental piece of art that you go completely off the deep end, the other way.

can their be an extreme the other way?

if so, what is it?  what are some examples of it?

i believe there is an extreme on that side, but i can't name what it would be or an example of it.  so i'm curious..............

the only thing i could think of was mars volta.  as over indulgent as it is, i don't think it falls short of being reaching it's goal, and being a good record.

[Fibes]

Sometimes it's not easy to get the stuff in the artists head to translate to the outside world, whatever it takes to do that isn't going overboard IMO. The overboard part is when someone outside of the flow injects their idea of perfection into the formula. As the band CAN used to say "man is imperfect and therefore perfection can only happen by accident." Once you grab the blade, all bets are off...

BTW J. after you spoke to me last night not one ounce of AT was used on that vocalist. Once he warmed up the shit was kicking and he's only 17. If he keeps on the path he will be the next Paul Rodgers or that dude from Badfinger. I just can't beleive those teens are drawing from those particular influences. It was refreshing and the songs were damn good. Back to Screamo tonite.

[j.hall]

hahahaha

that's funny.....i just mentioned it in passing...

and i knew i forgot to talk to you about something.  this was the topic.

oh well, i was busy looking for baby oatmeal....stupid gorcery store.

i'm looking for an example of the opposite end of editing and chopping out of habit.

it's like all the rock records today have a dogma attached to their production.  no matter what the material is the engineer just instantly starts chopping to a grid.  there is no forethought, it's a blind impulse driven by what the think is the "rule" for production.

i think there is an opposite to that.  some one who intentionally makes records that push the line between happy accident and straight up bad playing because they feel so convicted by their own thoughts and ideas about what "art" is, they have been blinded to what is happening in the tracking rooms.

[el duderino]

i'd guess that it would be wildly wandering tempo. i mean tha would be the opposite of perfect timing to a grid right?

I hate grids. I hate click tracks. and I really hate the fact that the people in charge feel they are a necessity.

whats that michael wagner quote? we're selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid.

[xonlocust]

j.hall wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 09:40

chopping drums without even listening to the take is the extreme on one side.  but what about being so determined to create a monumental piece of art that you go completely off the deep end, the other way. can their be an extreme the other way? if so, what is it?  what are some examples of it? i believe there is an extreme on that side, but i can't name what it would be or an example of it.  so i'm curious..............

my mind was fucking floored the first time i heard the drums on u.s. maple, long hair in three stages...  i still think it's thier best record. it was the first "band" jim o'rourke recorded.  everything about that record turned what i throught a band or record was sposed to be upside down.

http://www.mp3.com/albums/179124/summary.html

skin graft put out some amazing shit back then.

same thing with brise-glace - the first time i heard super trashy mono mic compressed room drum sounds double tracked against another part simultaneously... some fucking insane textures...

http://www.mp3.com/brise-glace/artists/35788/summary.html

the camp skin graft comp would be a great place for anyone trying to get a good cross section of the wierdo shit going on around then in chicago.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000019FZ/qid%3D1116 437972/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-4586575-7572729

but that whole skin graft/no wave scene is the best example i know of recent times that was super indulgent for arts sake and clearly never had any intention of "moving units". highly recommended stuff - you can even get one used for 4$!  a lot of that stuff is what originally brought me to chicago.

[Fig]

j.hall wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 10:40

i'm looking for an example of the opposite end of editing and chopping out of habit.

I do not exhibit this habit, personally.

Regarding opposites of grids and auto tuners, check out "Just a Little Tuna" from The Paul Wertico Trio on the _Don't Be Scared Anymore_ CD, released by Premonition Records:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004W55X/qid =1116438686/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl15/103-1911520-53582 61?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

The bass player played trumpet (poorly - though Eric is an accomplished trumpeter), Paul dropped sticks and made mis-hits on the kit, tuning issues, timing.  Its a gas!

That record was done on three ailing ADATS, no cut/copy/paste, I assure you.  The rest of the album was done to a click (perhaps locate _Modern Drummer_ October 2000 for the skinny on the making of the album - its got Jon Fishman on the cover).

Now I hear he uses Sonar, there goes the neighborhood - he lives down the street from my studio.

I'm currently in the middle of a "free-jazz" project involving a guitar synthesizer and a twisted mind.  Slow going but surely not on any kind of grid - true "expessionism" through synthesis with zero musical phrases or rhythms.  Challenging.

Takes all kinds, I suppose.

Fig

[Fibes]

Just pick up a Jandek record... Hahahahaha!

I've recorded bands that purposely told me things like : "I'm a singer, i can't sing but i want as much energy as possible on these tracks so let's record three takes with breaks in between and choose the best one with leanings on the first."

CAN only improvised, hence a chance at perfection.

Jad Fair, Eugene Chadborne and some of that Chicago no-wave stuff comes to mind. In a way Sebadoh did the same thing.

What was that Royal Trucks record that had "Stawberry soda pop" on it? It was on Drag City and IMO perfectly walked the slop line right down to the song titles being in the wrong order on the packaging. It's a tricky listen but the gems are in there.

I still wanna edit the drum breakdown where the KIK stutters in the "song thingy" because it kills the theta wave aspects of it for me. But i won't.

[pg666]

Quote:

my mind was fucking floored the first time i heard the drums on u.s. maple, long hair in three stages... i still think it's thier best record. it was the first "band" jim o'rourke recorded. everything about that record turned what i throught a band or record was sposed to be upside down.

i immediately thought of Stormandstress when reading this thread, who have done 1 record with jim o'rourke and 1 with steve albini. besides having no real rhythms or song structure (there are subtle melodies), the dynamics range from quiet enough to hear the amps buzzing to 'explosion'; sometimes within seconds of each other. i think that is about as "anti-modern music" as you get (and a little extreme for my taste quite frankly.)

i think trying to create mistakes for some type of humanity factor or whatever is lame. 'Good mistakes' are the type of things that happen when you play live or practice a lot and realize that certain things, although technically 'wrong', add excitement to the moment.

[Fibes]

After playing a few shows with Storm and Stress i became bored to tears, only after realizing how many unstructured songs had this thing called structure. That and the fact he wore his SG up so high it gave everyone a nosebleed.

[j.hall]

seems like we have a lot of examples about art for the sake of art and not some stricht dogma type approach to "hands off" i'll take whatever you give me intentionally.

i think the copy/paste/chop shop guys are doing this by habit now.   or more so....it's like a dogma they just adhere to because to them, this is the way it's always been and will always be.

so, on that note, i'm looking for their polar opposite.  some one who absolutely refuses to fix mistakes or do much of anything to personalize a recording, becuase they are so set into some self made up mindset that they can not approach a band uniquely.

this is all coming from the the classic idea of, "if this exists, it's opposite must exist as well....to balance it out."

[rdwilkins]

A shameless plug but the band I manage, formerly "DQE" and now going by their leader's name, Grace Braun, walk that line.  In fact they did an album with Jad Fair and their 2nd album was produced by Albini.  Although I have to admit they've gotten relatively "smoothed out" in the last few years but certainly not "slick".  The bottom line for Grace is to get her songs out there and move on and this seems to give her albums a sense of urgency and honesty that's pretty rare.  It was also cool that the last time we played SXSW we had Jad, Daniel Johnston (an old friend/fan of Grace's) and other like-minded people in the crowd.
Alright I'm done with the plug.

[Fibes]

Anyone that focuses on live remote recording will lean further that way. i suppose Albini leans that way. I'd still like to think that there are more of us "clerks" than powermad fixers with an agenda.

The bluegrass, clasical and jazz worlds are where most of the hands off cats can survive, where soundstaging and reality havn't been consumed by hyper-reality.



RD,
I vaguely remember a strange incident with Dairy Queen Empire's front person and Andy Pierce of Size 10 Jaw. Ahhh those were the days, the days when i didn't remember much of anything.

[rdwilkins]

yeah that incident was pretty insane.  I didn't know about it until Grace's current husband Dugan (also drummer in the band) told me the details...

[j.hall]

rdwilkins wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 13:12

.....and their 2nd album was produced by Albini.

i wonder what steve would say about taking a "producer" credit.

he seems so diametrically opposed to that title and all that it stands for.

maybe he is the opposite of the chop shop.

[rdwilkins]

Yeah, I actually mis-spoke there.  Album was actually produced by the band "with" Albini, among others.