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[WallyWest]

You could always get some Roland electronic cymbal pads or even just circles cut from cardboard for the drummer to hit while recording the drums and then overdub the real cymbals.

I've not tried it, but after doing an assignment on heavier music i came across a few big bands doing this. Funeral for a Friend for example, who are hardly death metal but i guess it works. Heres a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wK5EZ9rleY

[Drambudi]

WallyWest wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 17:03

You could always get some Roland electronic cymbal pads or even just circles cut from cardboard for the drummer to hit while recording the drums and then overdub the real cymbals.

Yeah, that's a possible solution, I heard that Queens Of The Stone Age did something like this for an album, and also "Reign In Blood" by Slayer is done like this. Much easier to mix when you don't have to compromise tom and snare EQ 'cause you've got cymbals ringing on all channels.

Though, I'm not into this approach.
Since I'm the drummer, I want to capture the real instrument in real time, making a exception for the bass-drums, which I gave up trying to get a decent acoustic sound from when doing 16th's up to 250 BPM.

/A.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

have you checked these out?  They might be a little too expensive for you but who knows!

http://www.rodemic.com/?pagename=Products&product=NT6

It looks like you'd be able to clip them right under each cymbal.

And then Audix has some mini mics, do a search for the M1244 and M1245.  Not sure if you've checked those out either but they might do the trick too.

[hargerst]

Drambudi wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 06:18

To Hargerst: These mic's are really good priced, and if you recommend them I trust they are good, BUT, I think I have to go with something that has cardioid pattern... I put it about one inch away. Compared to the O H there is very little difference in sound of the cymbals themselves, but a BIG difference in isolation from the drums. I use severe lo-cut though, at around 3K. /A.

If you're only gonna be 1" away and using that kind of eq, I would strongly recommend you at least try one of the little omni's before you go spending a lot of money on other mics.  In fact, buy one of these mics, and if you don't like it, I'll buy it from you for exactly what you paid for it.

[mshilarious]

I am grateful to Harvey for the referral, but if anyone contemplates using my products for such an application, please be aware of the maximum SPL ratings of the mics . . . at 1" from the bell, I measured a crash at least 132dBSPL, and I am not a drummer, and certainly not a cymbal basher.

In any event, the response is rather unnatural as the phasing is quite apparent as the cymbal moves up and down in response to the hit.  In fact you can even hear wind noise from the movement of the cymbal.

[hargerst]

mshilarious wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 16:47

I am grateful to Harvey for the referral, but if anyone contemplates using my products for such an application, please be aware of the maximum SPL ratings of the mics . . . at 1" from the bell, I measured a crash at least 132dBSPL, and I am not a drummer, and certainly not a cymbal basher. In any event, the response is rather unnatural as the phasing is quite apparent as the cymbal moves up and down in response to the hit.  In fact you can even hear wind noise from the movement of the cymbal.

even at the bell, rather than at the outer edge?  I'm gonna hafta try it, but my offer to buy the mic still holds (if you don't like it).

[mshilarious]

Yeah, right at the bell.  It's a weird sound, to be sure.  I didn't try it 1" from the edge, it would have been knocked over!

[Etch-A-Sketch]

mshilarious wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 17:58

Yeah, right at the bell.  It's a weird sound, to be sure.

Yeah, that's what I was saying... But Drambudi said he puts a HPF at around 3KHz, so maybe that helps with the weirdness?

[Etch-A-Sketch]

mshilarious wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 14:47

please be aware of the maximum SPL ratings of the mics . . . at 1" from the bell, I measured a crash at least 132dBSPL

That is a very good point.  Drambudi, regardless of what mic you eventually purchase, definitely keep this in mind.  You might have a great mic, but it just can't handle the SPL from being so close to the cymbal.  You could permanently damage the mic this way, so make sure to check the Max SPL ratings!!!!

[mshilarious]

Yeah, maybe a HPF.  My taste in cymbals runs toward Zildjian K, so that would kill some fundamentals pretty bad.  I have this Zildjian Breakbeat Ride, I think that's actually an A series, but it's the driest cymbal I've ever heard.  That thing is delicious, man.

Anyway, the issue seems to be as the cymbal moves up and down, it's like there is a doppler shift in and out, and that affects all frequencies.  It's like a Leslie, but not in a good way.

If you play like a ride cymbal gently, it's actually not a bad sound, but on a crash, it wouldn't work for me.

[Drambudi]

"at 1" from the bell, I measured a crash at least 132dBSPL"
-Oh, is it THAT loud... I was about to mail you and ask about these things actually, since I planned on following the recommendations from mr Gerst...

The one I tried for this (Line Audio CM2) handles 130 dB according to the specs, and seemed to be handling the SPL well. (I'm using Zildjian A Custom crashes)

The Audio Technica PRO37 handles 141 dB.

The NAIANT MSH-1 can only take 108 dB and will maybe crap out...
The MSH-2 handles 120 dB, probably problematic too?
The MSH-1K Cardioid could be perfect for this if it wasn't for the roll-off at the top...

To avoid the "phasing" effect you have put the mic on the "side" of the cymbal as viewed from the drummers seat, so when it is played and thus swings towards the drummer and then back again, the mic is at all times at the same distance from the bell.
(If you don't do this, you have to screw the cymbals down really tight, which sucks for the sound and the cymbal's survival odds!)

This works at least when I play, but a less controlled drummer may make the cymbals sway in all directions...

I have a question: I did put my HPF after recording (in the DAW), would the mic behave any different if I put this kind of EQ on the pre-amp itself?

Thanks for all the interest,

/A.

[mshilarious]

Well a couple of things about mics and specs:  first, the quoted spec is normally at 1% THD (some manufacturers spec 0.5% instead).  That's a noticeable amount of distortion on a smooth, consistent source, but if the source has very fast transients or a lot of harmonic content, you won't be able to hear 1%.

So if you were using a mic that did 130dBSPL, that was just the 1% level, it wouldn't heavily clip until maybe 9, 12dB more than that.  So that mic probably had enough SPL handling for your application.

[marcel]

Drambudi wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 10:55

...bass-drums, which I gave up trying to get a decent acoustic sound from when doing 16th's up to 250 BPM.

Wow.  That's a hit rate of about 17Hz, getting close to an audible sound in itself.  Can the human ear really distinguish individual hits at that speed?

Crazy.

Best, Marcel

[compasspnt]

Say that again, Marcel...I couldn't hear you because of that constant tone going on...

[hargerst]

While I'm not crazy about this whole concept of recording cymbals this close, you can also find a lot of inexpensive MXL 603's on eBay and they'll handle 137dB @ 0.5% THD.  They would meet all your requirements.