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Author Topic: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals  (Read 13992 times)

Drambudi

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Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« on: July 26, 2007, 05:55:30 PM »

Hey guys.
I'm going to buy a bunch of small condenser's for mic'ing my cymbals individually, and since I have ten of them plus hi-hats I don't want to pay for a more expensive model than needed.

I will cut out ALL lows,  so deep (or even decent) low-end is not something I need from them.
Below is a list of some lower priced models I'm considering:

JJlabs OHX2 - REALLY cheap this one, I'm guessing it sounds horrible...
JJlabs SMC1
FOSTEX MC10 ST
Beyerdynamic MCE 530
Line Audio CM3 - I have two CM2, that's the previous version, and I like these...
A-T PRO 37
AKG Perception 150

I'm asking to hear opinions from someone who tried any of these in a studio recording and how they measured up.

Oh, and these are gonna be up the bell of my cymbals all the time, and will NOT be used for anything else.

Thanks.

A.
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compasspnt

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 07:14:16 PM »

Wow,

Is this for live?
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garret

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 08:34:27 PM »

10 cymbals + hh?
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Dave Martin

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 10:53:56 PM »

Drambudi wrote on Thu, 26 July 2007 16:55

Hey guys.
I'm going to buy a bunch of small condenser's for mic'ing my cymbals individually, and since I have ten of them plus hi-hats I don't want to pay for a more expensive model than needed.

I will cut out ALL lows,  so deep (or even decent) low-end is not something I need from them.



I'm sorry - why in the hell would you want to do such a thing? To start with, have you considered the phase cancellation that you'll experience? with 10 mics in such close proximity?
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compasspnt

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2007, 12:18:29 AM »

This is either for stage use (still questionable), or it's a joke.
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Fibes

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2007, 12:48:22 AM »

Yeah, why?

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

In the rare occasion i mic a cymbal it's going to be a ribbon and usually it's only one that is somehow hidden from the overheads.

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Fibes
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Drambudi

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2007, 06:54:50 AM »

I'm a death metal drummer, and I'm going for total isolation when I record. I put the mic from below one inch from the bell as close to the center as possible.

Phase isn't a problem since I get pretty darn good isolation when I do like this. It gives you a clear sound and great control of individual levels and stereo position.

I'm going to do this instead of the X/Y overheads I've been using.

Has anyone tried any of the mic's I mentioned?
Thanks,

/A.
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hargerst

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2007, 10:42:21 AM »

Try these:

http://naiant.com/studiostore.html

Good sound, and they won't break your piggy bank.
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Harvey "Is that the right note?" Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio

redfro

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2007, 11:00:26 AM »

Harvey, as usual, answers the question without the "your doing it wrong" stuff.

That's why you're the man, Harvey.

Now, the "stuff".

I don't know of ANY death-metal recordings that do this. I'd venture a guess that none of the albums you listen to do this. Could be wrong, but worth a bet. Most that I've worked on use standard OH and a HH mic.

But, if it works for you...
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Wes Pitzer
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hargerst

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2007, 12:16:43 PM »

redfro,

Absolutely agree, but as you pointed out, I simply answered his question.  A couple of overheads (and rarely a hihat mic), and I'm good to go on any death metal stuff.  Most of the time, the drumming focus is on the double-pedal kick stuff in death metal.
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Harvey "Is that the right note?" Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio

Drambudi

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2007, 12:39:02 PM »

"I don't know of ANY death-metal recordings that do this"

-Eh, I know dozens of death metal albums that are recorded like this... In example Sweden's "Abyss Studios" has been using this technigue as a standard for years, and I know others as well.

But what matters is: After years of try-outs in my own studio I know how to get what I'm looking for, just need to choose the right mic...

Thanks for the link Harv, but all these are "omni" exept for
"MSH-1K", which has a roll-off at the top...

I do realize this kind of miking isn't a common thing to do, but just doing the test of listening to a mix, and then muting the overheads, you can hear how clean the stereo picture appears.

I'm not looking for a natural sound, but a produced sound:
Gated toms, triggered bass drums and so on for the ultimate definition of the whole drumkit even at REALLy high tempo's.


A.
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hargerst

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 12:59:34 PM »

Yes, they're omni's, but if you're miking *that* close, you're still gonna get good isolation with them.  You should buy at least one and actually try it.
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Harvey "Is that the right note?" Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio

Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2007, 06:20:29 PM »

You know, Zildjian used to make cymbal mics that would attach to the stand right under the bell.  Not sure if they make them anymore but you could try lookign for them...maybe someone's selling them on ebay..

Usually the sound right under the bell doesn't sound like the cymbal when you are a foot or two away.  It has much more of a round, nasal tone to it.  The Zildjian mics, if memory serves me, were designed to compensate for that automatically.  I remember they looked funny too...they were tiny little boxes that you clip on under the cymbal.  They didn't even look like mics! lol  But some people liked them, especially for live shows since they were very low profile...

Might be worth you checking out... and sorry, unfortunately I haven't had any experiences with the microphones you are currently looking at.
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Derek Jones
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CHANCE

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2007, 12:06:17 AM »

I am confused. If you gate and trigger your drums, wouldn't that isolate them from your L & R overheads ? Are you going for "surround" or just L & R "stereo" ?
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Drambudi

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2007, 07:18:04 AM »

To Hargerst: These mic's are really good priced, and if you recommend them I trust they are good, BUT, I think I have to go with something that has cardioid pattern...

I know about the Zildjian mic'ing system from the 80's, problem is they don't have separate out's...

"Usually the sound right under the bell doesn't sound like the cymbal when you are a foot or two away"
 -I put it about one inch away. Compared to the O H there is very little difference in sound of the cymbals themselves, but a BIG difference in isolation from the drums. I use severe lo-cut though, at around 3K.
And you can create a REALLY wide stereo panorama.

"If you gate and trigger your drums, wouldn't that isolate them from your L & R overheads? Are you going for "surround" or just L & R "stereo" ? "

 -How would gating the tom mic's silence the toms in the overheads...? I'm mixing in stereo.


Thanks for the replies,

/A.
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WallyWest

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2007, 11:03:16 AM »

You could always get some Roland electronic cymbal pads or even just circles cut from cardboard for the drummer to hit while recording the drums and then overdub the real cymbals.

I've not tried it, but after doing an assignment on heavier music i came across a few big bands doing this. Funeral for a Friend for example, who are hardly death metal but i guess it works. Heres a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wK5EZ9rleY
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Andy Gilson

Drambudi

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2007, 01:55:40 PM »

WallyWest wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 17:03

You could always get some Roland electronic cymbal pads or even just circles cut from cardboard for the drummer to hit while recording the drums and then overdub the real cymbals.


Yeah, that's a possible solution, I heard that Queens Of The Stone Age did something like this for an album, and also "Reign In Blood" by Slayer is done like this. Much easier to mix when you don't have to compromise tom and snare EQ 'cause you've got cymbals ringing on all channels.

Though, I'm not into this approach.
Since I'm the drummer, I want to capture the real instrument in real time, making a exception for the bass-drums, which I gave up trying to get a decent acoustic sound from when doing 16th's up to 250 BPM.

/A.
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2007, 02:20:00 PM »

have you checked these out?  They might be a little too expensive for you but who knows!

http://www.rodemic.com/?pagename=Products&product=NT6

It looks like you'd be able to clip them right under each cymbal.

And then Audix has some mini mics, do a search for the M1244 and M1245.  Not sure if you've checked those out either but they might do the trick too.
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Derek Jones
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hargerst

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2007, 03:15:40 PM »

Drambudi wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 06:18

To Hargerst: These mic's are really good priced, and if you recommend them I trust they are good, BUT, I think I have to go with something that has cardioid pattern...

I put it about one inch away. Compared to the O H there is very little difference in sound of the cymbals themselves, but a BIG difference in isolation from the drums. I use severe lo-cut though, at around 3K.

/A.

If you're only gonna be 1" away and using that kind of eq, I would strongly recommend you at least try one of the little omni's before you go spending a lot of money on other mics.  In fact, buy one of these mics, and if you don't like it, I'll buy it from you for exactly what you paid for it.
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Harvey "Is that the right note?" Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio

mshilarious

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2007, 05:47:11 PM »

I am grateful to Harvey for the referral, but if anyone contemplates using my products for such an application, please be aware of the maximum SPL ratings of the mics . . . at 1" from the bell, I measured a crash at least 132dBSPL, and I am not a drummer, and certainly not a cymbal basher.

In any event, the response is rather unnatural as the phasing is quite apparent as the cymbal moves up and down in response to the hit.  In fact you can even hear wind noise from the movement of the cymbal.
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hargerst

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2007, 08:44:52 PM »

mshilarious wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 16:47

I am grateful to Harvey for the referral, but if anyone contemplates using my products for such an application, please be aware of the maximum SPL ratings of the mics . . . at 1" from the bell, I measured a crash at least 132dBSPL, and I am not a drummer, and certainly not a cymbal basher.

In any event, the response is rather unnatural as the phasing is quite apparent as the cymbal moves up and down in response to the hit.  In fact you can even hear wind noise from the movement of the cymbal.

even at the bell, rather than at the outer edge?  I'm gonna hafta try it, but my offer to buy the mic still holds (if you don't like it).
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Harvey "Is that the right note?" Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio

mshilarious

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2007, 08:58:07 PM »

Yeah, right at the bell.  It's a weird sound, to be sure.  I didn't try it 1" from the edge, it would have been knocked over!
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2007, 06:02:26 PM »

mshilarious wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 17:58

Yeah, right at the bell.  It's a weird sound, to be sure.


Yeah, that's what I was saying... But Drambudi said he puts a HPF at around 3KHz, so maybe that helps with the weirdness?

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Derek Jones
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2007, 06:08:57 PM »

mshilarious wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 14:47

 please be aware of the maximum SPL ratings of the mics . . . at 1" from the bell, I measured a crash at least 132dBSPL


That is a very good point.  Drambudi, regardless of what mic you eventually purchase, definitely keep this in mind.  You might have a great mic, but it just can't handle the SPL from being so close to the cymbal.  You could permanently damage the mic this way, so make sure to check the Max SPL ratings!!!!


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Derek Jones
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mshilarious

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2007, 08:07:53 PM »

Yeah, maybe a HPF.  My taste in cymbals runs toward Zildjian K, so that would kill some fundamentals pretty bad.  I have this Zildjian Breakbeat Ride, I think that's actually an A series, but it's the driest cymbal I've ever heard.  That thing is delicious, man.

Anyway, the issue seems to be as the cymbal moves up and down, it's like there is a doppler shift in and out, and that affects all frequencies.  It's like a Leslie, but not in a good way.

If you play like a ride cymbal gently, it's actually not a bad sound, but on a crash, it wouldn't work for me.
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Drambudi

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2007, 03:54:07 PM »

"at 1" from the bell, I measured a crash at least 132dBSPL"
-Oh, is it THAT loud... I was about to mail you and ask about these things actually, since I planned on following the recommendations from mr Gerst...

The one I tried for this (Line Audio CM2) handles 130 dB according to the specs, and seemed to be handling the SPL well. (I'm using Zildjian A Custom crashes)

The Audio Technica PRO37 handles 141 dB.

The NAIANT MSH-1 can only take 108 dB and will maybe crap out...
The MSH-2 handles 120 dB, probably problematic too?
The MSH-1K Cardioid could be perfect for this if it wasn't for the roll-off at the top...

To avoid the "phasing" effect you have put the mic on the "side" of the cymbal as viewed from the drummers seat, so when it is played and thus swings towards the drummer and then back again, the mic is at all times at the same distance from the bell.
(If you don't do this, you have to screw the cymbals down really tight, which sucks for the sound and the cymbal's survival odds!)

This works at least when I play, but a less controlled drummer may make the cymbals sway in all directions...

I have a question: I did put my HPF after recording (in the DAW), would the mic behave any different if I put this kind of EQ on the pre-amp itself?

Thanks for all the interest,

/A.


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mshilarious

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2007, 06:12:44 PM »

Well a couple of things about mics and specs:  first, the quoted spec is normally at 1% THD (some manufacturers spec 0.5% instead).  That's a noticeable amount of distortion on a smooth, consistent source, but if the source has very fast transients or a lot of harmonic content, you won't be able to hear 1%.

So if you were using a mic that did 130dBSPL, that was just the 1% level, it wouldn't heavily clip until maybe 9, 12dB more than that.  So that mic probably had enough SPL handling for your application.
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marcel

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2007, 10:58:42 PM »

Drambudi wrote on Sat, 28 July 2007 10:55

...bass-drums, which I gave up trying to get a decent acoustic sound from when doing 16th's up to 250 BPM.



Wow.  That's a hit rate of about 17Hz, getting close to an audible sound in itself.  Can the human ear really distinguish individual hits at that speed?

Crazy.

Best, Marcel
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Best, Marcel

compasspnt

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2007, 11:19:47 PM »

Say that again, Marcel...I couldn't hear you because of that constant tone going on...
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hargerst

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2007, 11:28:22 PM »

While I'm not crazy about this whole concept of recording cymbals this close, you can also find a lot of inexpensive MXL 603's on eBay and they'll handle 137dB @ 0.5% THD.  They would meet all your requirements.
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Harvey "Is that the right note?" Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio

marcel

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2007, 11:57:21 PM »

What about those shotgun mic's (lobar, I think they're called?), like this:

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/5820fd64ff47751 9/index.html

May allow you to close mic without getting so...  Close.

Would probably still be a phase alignment nightmare, tho.

Best, Marcel
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Best, Marcel

Kentro

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2007, 12:08:25 PM »

Sounds like a major pain in the ass. I have no idea why you'd want to put yourself through the hell of trying to make this work.
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Dave Martin

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2007, 04:53:26 PM »

Will the original poster give us some links where we can hear how this technique actually sounds?
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Harland

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Re: Small condenser for close-mic'ing cymbals
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2007, 07:15:54 PM »

CAD makes a couple of drum mic'ing packages for cheap - Chinese of course, but the SDC's included in those kits are short and are likely up to handling the SPL required. Maybe they sell those individually. I wish I could tell you what the top end of these sounded like but I've spent too much time standing on stages next to crash cymbals Laughing
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