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[bigaudioblowhard]

Okay, bring on the jokes.

But seriously folks, just recieved some METAL MOTHERS that had big red
stamped lettering that reads

DEHORNED

What is this?

bab

[Darth Fader]

Are you sure that's just not the name of the band and the album??

Husky

[bblackwood]

From an interview with Stan Ricker:

Quote:

Q: What's your opinion of the dehorning of masters? A: Well, I don't know of anybody who does that anymore. It seems to have been fairly popular in the sixties or seventies or whenever. A cutter stylus cuts and it also plows. With a snow plow you go down the road and you pile up all this humongous crap along the curbs and sidewalks. Well, you hope you don't get much of that when you cut. Cutter styluses are manufactured much better nowadays than, shall we say, thirty years ago. The burnishing facets weren't so accurate then. Sometimes you got a nice cut in the groove but then sometimes you didn?t, and there might be a bunch of stuff stacked up at the edge of the groove. That stuff was rough-textured and made separation of the lacquer master from the first metal plating very difficult, because the stuff that's thrown off, when viewed under a microscope, looks like a string of cinders. It's porous, like a sponge, you see. So when you're electroplating that stuff, well, the metal molecules get inside and you can imagine metallic nickel getting inside a sponge and then how do you peel a sponge off that electroplating? You're left with little bits of stuff stuck to the metal (NOISY!). So the idea was to knock off those. It affects the sound. I don't know anybody who does dehorning anymore. At least I don't know anybody that's involved in high quality work who does it, mostly because there?s no need for it with today?s better styli."

[TotalSonic]

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Thu, 05 April 2007 16:08

Okay, bring on the jokes. But seriously folks, just recieved some METAL MOTHERS that had big red stamped lettering that reads DEHORNED What is this? bab

When you pull off a nickel father off of the original silvered lacquer master it sometimes can have the impression of the "horns" - the material pushed to the sides during the cutting of the lacquers - which are tiny bits of material on the surface (on the uncut land that goes along the top of the grooves) that extend out like horns when you look at them under the microscope.  These are often removed  in a process called "dehorning" in order to create a stamper that won't press these defects into the vinyl record itself.  

As Stan Ricker noted dehorning came into disfavor with many plating facilities as cutting and plating techniques improved and minimized the occurance of the problem - and also because the process of dehorning can sometimes lead to decreased definition of the program material if it is not done carefully.

fwiw - at Europadisk we wouldn't dehorn the stampers that we pulled off of the Direct Metal Masters.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[minister]

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Thu, 05 April 2007 15:08

Okay, bring on the jokes.

Un-Cuckolded.

[Gold]

Only necessary for Jewish fathers.

[MASSIVE Mastering]

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Thu, 05 April 2007 15:08

Okay, bring on the jokes.

It's what happened to Satan at the end of that Tenacious D movie.  

[bigaudioblowhard]

Thanks everyone, great to know, good to go.

bab

[bigaudioblowhard]

TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 05 April 2007 17:44

When you pull off a nickel father off of the original silvered lacquer master it sometimes can have the impression of the "horns" - the material pushed to the sides during the cutting of the lacquers - which are tiny bits of material on the surface (on the uncut land that goes along the top of the grooves) that extend out like horns when you look at them under the microscope.  These are often removed  in a process called "dehorning" in order to create a stamper that won't press these defects into the vinyl record itself.   As Stan Ricker noted dehorning came into disfavor with many plating facilities as cutting and plating techniques improved and minimized the occurance of the problem - and also because the process of dehorning can sometimes lead to decreased definition of the program material if it is not done carefully. fwiw - at Europadisk we wouldn't dehorn the stampers that we pulled off of the Direct Metal Masters. Best regards, Steve Berson

Steve, I'm assuming one DEHORNED the lacquer BEFORE  the first plating, no?

As I understand it, the horns would be negative on the FATHER, or like little holes in the uncut land between grooves.

bab

[TotalSonic]

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Sun, 08 April 2007 15:49

TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 05 April 2007 17:44 When you pull off a nickel father off of the original silvered lacquer master it sometimes can have the impression of the "horns" - the material pushed to the sides during the cutting of the lacquers - which are tiny bits of material on the surface (on the uncut land that goes along the top of the grooves) that extend out like horns when you look at them under the microscope.  These are often removed  in a process called "dehorning" in order to create a stamper that won't press these defects into the vinyl record itself.   As Stan Ricker noted dehorning came into disfavor with many plating facilities as cutting and plating techniques improved and minimized the occurance of the problem - and also because the process of dehorning can sometimes lead to decreased definition of the program material if it is not done carefully. fwiw - at Europadisk we wouldn't dehorn the stampers that we pulled off of the Direct Metal Masters. Best regards, Steve Berson Steve, I'm assuming one DEHORNED the lacquer BEFORE  the first plating, no?

I'm not positive about this, as I was never hands on with plating lacquers, but I believe it's also possible to dehorn the nickel mothers.  

lacquer master (negative) > nickel father (positive) > nickel mother (negative) > nickel stamper (positive) > vinyl record (negative)

Maybe someone who has more experience in this regard can chime in here and further clarify.

Quote:

As I understand it, the horns would be negative on the FATHER, or like little holes in the uncut land between grooves.

exactly.  

My second post is confusing as I should have stated that fwiw Europadisk never dehorned the mothers (not stampers as originally posted) even when we received nickel mothers made off of lacquer masters.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Gold]

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't mess with the lacquer. It's too soft and prone to damage. You probably dehorn each mother pulled off the father. I can ask, to be sure I'm not spouting BS.

I think that to dehorn you use an abrasive metal polish.  I'll check that too.

[TotalSonic]

I'm not positive but I think it might be possible to dehorn the lacquer after it has been silvered.  I'm pretty sure that it would most often be done to the mothers though.  Too bad someone like Desmond from Mastercraft doesn't post here as he could clear this up in a second.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[ak]

Hi,

it is necessary to "dehorn" mothers when the master was
a lacquer disk. Thats what all good plants do.

but it has to be done right. otherwise a looot problems can occur. (Don´t want to write a book now..)

This information on your mothers is important that it will not done twice.

afaik all good german pressing plants dehorn (in german : polieren = polish or schwabbeln) their mothers to get
proper quality pressed.

Good ones listen to the entire mother if it´s ok (1st audible quality check). One plant i know is able to cut out crackles which caused by dust when it was on the lacquer while silvering.
This can happen when dust sticks to the disk and could not be removed completely after washing the lacquers.
This is mostly interesting for laquers which get shipped in
dusty boxes or for audiophile stuff.
They can also repair overcuts sometimes, then they are nearly unhearable.


When i make cuts for overseas pressingplants to make sure the
quality of the record will be good i often sending them mothers from my favourite plant (dehorned, and tested) so the other plant
just have to do the stampers and can press. Makes more sense then to send out lacquers on a long journey, especcially not if its summer. And if you know that a plant has a bad Galvanik quality.

A lot of myths are going around if a mother is polished (dehorned) to long or to hard the highs can get lost.
Anyone made some experiments ?


greetings

Andreas

Schnittstelle

Mastering & Vinylschnitt
Frankfurt - Germany

[Gold]

ak wrote on Sun, 15 April 2007 16:09

it is necessary to "dehorn" mothers when the master was a lacquer disk. Thats what all good plants do. but it has to be done right. otherwise a looot problems can occur. (Don?t want to write a book now..)

The place I use most often doesn't  dehorn on a regular basis. He will do it on request if the side is noisy. He thinks that 'if it ain't broke don't fix it.' I've cut many very quiet sides without incident.

Quote:

They can also repair overcuts sometimes, then they are nearly unhearable.

Are you talking about the 'zzzpht' sound you can get when grooves kiss? If so that's very nice.

Quote:

When i make cuts for overseas pressingplants to make sure the quality of the record will be good i often sending them mothers from my favourite plant (dehorned, and tested) so the other plant just have to do the stampers and can press.

I prefer to ship metal parts too.

Quote:

A lot of myths are going around if a mother is polished (dehorned) to long or to hard the highs can get lost. Anyone made some experiments ?

No. It seems plausible but if the test pressings sound good, why argue?

[Bob Olhsson]

My understanding is that dehorning became a lot less common after the introduction of modern heated cutting styli in the 1960s.