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[Keith Smith]

I just turned 54 last month. I've been a gigging musician much of the time since I was 13 and I'm full time at it these days (although the vast bulk of my time is now spent with Cubase).

I've been a half decent photographer, owned/operated a machine shop for ten years, been a draftsman for part of it too, but all that said, learning to get a decent audio mix is the hardest thing I've ever tried to do, and I'm dead serious about learning to do it well. As they say, "Life is too short to suck!"

So I'm wondering if I could get a little guidance here:

I imagine all of you who have acheived anything in this business have spent your share of time turd-polishing as a way of learning your craft. I spend so many hours at it that I am beginning to wonder if there's a  recognizable point where it makes sense to say "This is done", and move on to the next project.

I'm doing a bit of commercial work, and have some happy clients, so I guess I'm getting the occasional thing right but I am obsessive enough that a job is never done until someone comes and takes it away. -just wondering if one learns more from grinding some bad tracks to powder, trying to get something out of them, or if it's better to move quicker from project to project, doing the best you can.

Maybe it's kind of a stupid question, but I'd be very appreciative of the benefit of some 'real' experience.

Thanks,
Keith

[weihfool]

Hey Keith,  

    I'm with you, man.  It ain't easy working with the cards that are sometimes dealt our way. However, there's always a way around the problem, and rather than try to impart some magical trick or formula, because we all know there's hardly anything formulaic about getting a great sound to tape/disc, I'd rather give you a link to one of our great philosophical brethren here with us.  

He's actually on the MARSH forum more often than not and he pays for his food by making records, so he would qualify as a pro.  Listen to the soundbites and take it all in.  It's VEEERRRRYYYYY informative and it's not just about recording distorted guitars.  It's all about making the whole damn thing work. Check it out here:  http://marsh.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/287/0/96/

Download all of the soundclips and listen to what the man has to say.  It's a hell of a listen and damn entertaining.  However, beyond all of the jokes, it will teach you something!  Enjoy and Happy Holidays to all here and their loved ones!!!

[Level]

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!


Can't wait to read this one and respond.....

[Level]

Ok...I read the post.

Second guessing something that is "already there" can get you in deep trouble. How do YOU know it is ready to go? Well, you can polish a car until you wear the paint off and then you are left with a eventual rust bucket.

One of the hardest things to learn in this business is that you can't beat anyone. All you can hope to do is provide a level of quality that at least is very acceptable and try to push the envelope some..but if you push it too much, you will find yourself "outside of the calibration of averages" and when you are dealing with the audio arts, you must find a place to be and stick to it, with incremental precision along the way.

This creation we work with called "audio engineering" DICTATES you stay within the norms of your finest peers because you must be able to spread the word through Millions of ears and millions of systems to relay the same emotional vibe as the artist intended. It is not impossible but highly probable because their is not One standard.

Once you start 2nd guessing too much, this is the time to come back to the project another day. Like machine design and drafting, a different day make for a whole different experience and it allows you to move forward and see things in a way, yesterday they were hidden.

You just have to "keep on keeping on"

Damn the torpedoes.

[J.J. Blair]

Keith, when you say 'commercial work', do you mean advertising or stuff intended for commercial release?

[Curve Dominant]

Quote:

posted by Keith Smith: ...on the polishing of turds I am obsessive enough that a job is never done until someone comes and takes it away. -just wondering if one learns more from grinding some bad tracks to powder, trying to get something out of them, or if it's better to move quicker from project to project, doing the best you can.

Whenever you find yourself in "turd-polishing" mode, that means there was a failure in the pre-production stage.

If you use your obsessive nature to make sure every single aspect is covered in pre-production, the rest should be a breeze, a pleasure.

Otherwise, the turd you find yourself polishing will be your own. You cannot blame the talent. They only did what you allowed yourself to record.

Right?

[Phil]

[J.J. Blair]

Since Phil went there, I'll chime in about commercials.  I've found that when working on commercials, the only thing that counts is speed and efficiency.  It's amazing too, because commercials are where the real money is is music, yet quality standards are so far below what most of us are used to while making albums.  I'm not saying that you can do something that sounds like shit, but I've found for commercials that as long as it sounds professional, nobody gives a shit about it being the best drum sound ever or the most original piece of music on the face of the Earth.  Throw up a couple of mics, get it sounding tight, don't waste the clients time.  They're happy with how it sounds? Good.  Take that big fat paycheck and buy another piece of gear from Fletcher with it.    

As far as the "When is it done?" question goes, I always ask myself this: Am I willing to put my name on this?  For somebody as obsessive/compulsive as I am, you don't have to convince me to not overproduce stuff or to not overmix.  It's like how you can get children to do great works of art, if you know when to take away their paint brush.  Nick Launay told me that when he did Semi Sonic, they did all kinds of production, and then when they brought the tracks to Bob Clearmountain, he decided the record would sound better with just guitar, bass and drums, and that's basically how he mixed it.  Exploring every possibilty, on the other hand, can get you in trouble.  One of the complaints that I've heard about somebody, whose name starts with "Jon Brion", is that he can't stop deciding to try different things, which always brings his projects in past the deadline and over budget.  I for one feel you serve the artist better by making sure the material is as strong as possible in its simplest form, rather than trying to make every track sound like an outtake from Sgt. Pepper.  Who cares if the new Fiona Apple record has the greatest bass tone you've ever heard and the coolest string arrangements ever recorded at Abbey Road?  The thing is never getting released.  

I also find that one has to have different standards for different projects, too.  Otherwise, you can drive yourself insane.  I mentioned that Iranian princess with the reality show, in another forum.  This girl could not sing her way out of a parking ticket, and I did three vocal sessions with her just to get a decent comp on one song.  In the end, it sounded a million times better than she does in real life, yet I would still have worked more on it were this going to be a commercially released album.  However, since it was a "demo" (even if it is being played on national TV and maybe the radio) and since I was being paid demo rate, I made sure that the music was absolutely excellent and that the vocal was listenable.  If I had to make sure that people would want to choose to buy it over some Shania record or something, I'd probably still be working on on the vocals tracks with her to this day.  

My basic rule for non-advertising music is this: Do the mix and the production serve the song appropriately?   Is there a sufficient pay-off?  (Meaning, will adding the Jimmy Miller kind of 12 string string in the chorus actually take it to another place that it isn't quite at yet, or is it there already without it?)  Is the artist satisfied that it reasonably represents their artistic vision?  Can you put your name on it and not feel like nobody will ever hire you if they hear this piece of shit?  If I can answer all of these satisfactorily, then I'm done.  Move on to the next piece of shit and get that over with, so that when somebody brings you something that is really great, you are free to work with them, and not still busy trying to get blood from a stone.

[Fletcher]

Keith Smith wrote on Wed, 22 December 2004 19:23

I am beginning to wonder if there's a  recognizable point where it makes sense to say "This is done", and move on to the next project.

Absolutely.

That point is either: A) When the client runs out of money, or B)when the record is in the stores.

Turd polishing... well if you're in turd polishing mode that means your creative energy is focused on clearing up bad arranging, poor performance, shitty recording and not on being creative [or as creative as you might have been able to be had those other aspects not sucked] with the tonal/textural relationships that can comprise a great mix... then again, there are few to no "great mixes" on the radio anymore, so who the fuck cares.

If this is any comfort... it generally takes a good 5 years before I can listen to something I've worked on and not stress about something I wish I had done either in production or mixing.

[Eric Rudd]

I liked Fletcher's post. I too have difficulty listening to past work.

One thing to bear in mind is to disconnect the ego from the work. This assumes that you were hired strictly as the engineer with little or no production input. We all love it when the musicianship is awesome, the sounds are great, the vibe is fun, and we're all sitting around thinking how great we all are. But that's not always the case. When you're working on those turds as an engineer, try to remember that you weren't the sucky guitar player, you weren't the sucky songwriter, you weren't the sucky vocalist. No need to apologize for things you have no control over.

Do the best you can and move on. There are a few "by the numbers" decisions you can make as the engineer....is the vocal loud enough/in the correct perspective....have you done your best with bass/low end management....have you developed the feel of the song (if there is any) as best you can?

They can't all be home-runs. I wish they were. Life has a funny way of throwing stuff our way that humbles us when we've become full of ourselves.

If it makes you feel any better...your perfectionist attitude is what will help you strive to be a better engineer, parent, photographer, co-worker, and human. It unfortunately goes hand in hand with creativity.

Eric

[Level]

This all reminds me of 'many a session'. A good analogy is the barber, that is so maticulous with a haircut that the client ends up bald.

[Phil]

[Johnny B]

Much of what was said above is right on, however, there is something to be said for taking all the time necessary to produce a great, and lasting, piece of art. Sometimes you just can't move on, and by some accounts, I'm glad the people involved in some things taking up an entire year, stuck it out until it was right.

Brian Wilson and Jimi Hendrix are but a few exmples of things taking up to year to get out the door...sometimes you move on, and sometimes you just keep doing it until it's right....setting aside all considerations of time, money, schedules and whatnot...

And would not the world benefit if the "art" part were the most important factor in all the decisions, too bad we have to live in the real world sometimes...a world of compromises and so-so product....

If I had a vote, which I don't, because I lack any form of talent, I'd vote for making "good art."  

YMMV

[J.J. Blair]

Quick anecdote about when shit becomes shinola:

One of my favorite things I've ever done was a hip-hop type project that was brought in, and they thought it just needed to be mixed.  Well, when I was transferring this one tune in particular from DA88 to PT, I called my best friend to let him hear this cacaphony over the phone.  He couldn't believe what he was hearing and started expressing his condolences.   I could not fathom what an unlistenable piece of shit this thing was.  Out of tune acoustic, lame ass violin with bad intonation, really poor choice of drum loops that stepped all over everything and a out of tune bass (my personal favorite).  The  only thing that I kept was the Rhodes.  I made the guitarist and bass redo their tracks.  I tweaked the vocal heavily.  I made the artist totally reprogram the drums, and even tweaked them a little more in PT to make the setup fills and turn arounds sound like what  drummer would really play, threw out the violin and put Mellotron and Mini Moog on it, complete with a full on Keith Emerson solo.  When it was done, it sounded like one of the lost Innervisions tracks, it was so cool.  

The artist's manager stole the money that I was supposed to get paid, so I only mixed half the tunes, shut down production and I've simply held on to the masters to this day.  The label folded before it all got sorted out, so nothing ever happened with it.  It's a shame, because it's one of the first things that I play people and I still put it on my reel.  Everybody always flips out about it.  I've always considered following it on my reel with a mix of what it sounded like before I transformed that piece of shit into the final product.  Maybe when VH1 does "Extreme Make Over: The Hip Hop Edition".

[Keith Smith]

Wow! Thanks for all the responses.

Sean: I've started downdloading this stuff and had a listen to some of it. Damn, I wish I wasn't heading out to the mountains for Christmas gigs! I want to spend a day or two working this stuff through. Hell, with 19 pages it'll probably take a month. Thanks, man. It sounds like it might be a full up audio course. And back at'cha on the Christmas greetings!

Bill, thanks for the sage words. Second guessing is surely the name of my game at this point, and that seems especially true when mixing my own guitar tracks. Maybe it's part and parcel of being a 'jobbing guitar player'. I can't figure out who I am half the time or what I want to sound like.

Quote:

One of the hardest things to learn in this business is that you can't beat anyone. All you can hope to do is provide a level of quality that at least is very acceptable and try to push the envelope some..but if you push it too much, you will find yourself "outside of the calibration of averages" and when you are dealing with the audio arts, you must find a place to be and stick to it, with incremental precision along the way.

 

I think I'll get this tattooed on my forhead!

Quote:

Once you start 2nd guessing too much, this is the time to come back to the project another day. Like machine design and drafting, a different day make for a whole different experience and it allows you to move forward and see things in a way, yesterday they were hidden.

Hmm. Can I count the times I've said "I should put this away and read a few more pages of Bob Katz"?;  but instead, I climb back on and continue to beat the thing to death, chasing myself down the rabbit hole until I can't stay awake anymore. The next day, as you say, brings a whole new, but very familiar experience -like WTF was I hearing last night! It's crazy. I learned very early in this game not to play with reverb (especially)  late at night, but I can't resist it sometimes -and I always regret it.

J.J.: I really just mean stuff I can write a bill for. I am the lowest of the low. Been at this just over couple of years( probably about 4000 hours of knob twiddling and second guessing) ; spent the first six or seven months reading and knob twiddling and a couple of billed projects after about 15 months. I tripled that that this year with a few meditation CD's for several clients, and a locally released vocal Christmas CD which has had some airplay, and have a half a dozen projects lined up for early next year.

I'm trying to be really cautious and stay away from stuff that I can't do to some kind of professional standard. I want to do this full time as my playing career slowly falls off, and I'm in a position where I need to finance the studio with paid work (no rich relations in my family!). This is a small pond I'm in, so I know I can't afford to do a dis-service to any client, or to the industry.

Eric: All the turds are mine. I can assure you! Either I let the artist get away with something (listening with my eyes!), or I was trying to be efficient (too fast) and hit the red button without taking the pains to get the right mic in the right place and into the right signal chain (or else it's plain ignorance!). Right!


Phil: No sweat re OT. Actually for me that was very OnT. The Xmas CD was tracked in about 6 hours and gone for reproduction a week later (why can't people plan ahead?), so I did get one out without a lot of polishing -but it sure could have used a little more! Having met the deadline, I know this lady will supply me with turds again.


J.J.: With your permission, I'm going to print and frame the last three paragraphs for the studio wall! In truth, though, most of my studio projects are quite small (one voice and one or two intruments) and this seems to be where I run into the most trouble. I work with a local keyboard wizard, and we're starting to play with Garritan and Reason a bit, so I know some of the temptations you mention are going to rear their heads in the next few months, but for the present most of my polishing (with some 17 piece swing band exceptions) is just sweating to get good vocal and instrumental sounds from tracks I should have recorded better.


Fetcher: I guess I'm inhabiting the lower, and steeper part of the learning curve right now. What I mixed yesterday sounds, well, OK, and the stuff I did a month or two ago is unbearable. I guess that's good -shows I'm improving quickly. But it is a comfort to hear those words from someone like you.

Eric Rudd: My significant other is a singer who just can't believe the lengths I will go to to make a track the best I can. She accuses me of perfectionism, which I deny, though I am constantly aspiring to earn the title honestly. I tell her "This is a business of and for perfectionists; If you can't stand that, get out of the way before you get run over!"


Bill: Maybe I should switch to barbering? I hear you meet the nicest people...

Phil: Done by 3:30. (my fav)  LOL


Johhny B: Well said. I guess my problem is finding something (a track) which I believe in enough to deserve that kind of attention. Perhaps I've skewed the definition of turd polishing a bit too. Much of what I do in this is aimed at learning everything I can from each project. Sometimes I'm still working on it long after the gig is done, trying to figure out what I SHOULD have done. Good thing I'm not on somebody elses payroll!!!

JJ: Hmm. We could swap a few machine shop stories...


Thanks all for these responses. It makes me feel I'm on the right track. I'm still at the point where I see every project as a chance to learn another few lessons, hopefully at no great expense to the client. And I'm constantly in fear that my shingle went up too soon; that my product is not a credit to 'the business'. Although I know there really are some bad actors out there, theirs is not the standard I wish to be judged by. Time will tell. It always does.


I do find that the short in, out, and done projects seem to be the most productive from a learning point of view. I guess the decisions and the results stand closer together in time and therefore yield the most clarity as lessons. I just wish there were 48 hours in a day, and my ears were useful for more than the first 20 minutes!

I've been trying to implement as much of Bob Katz' K-system as I can with the gear available, and I think it's really making a difference in the shine of my turds! I'll have a few questions about that to post soon if I may.


Thanks again, and a very wonderful holiday season to everyone here. I am very humbled to use this forum along with some very big fish. It's the finest resource I've seen and gets my first attention -even before my email!
Keith Smith