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Author Topic: mixing styles of the rich & famous  (Read 19077 times)

joeaudio

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mixing styles of the rich & famous
« on: July 14, 2006, 01:26:22 PM »

I cold email a record label here in New York.
I get a response saying "we usually use sterling
but we're always looking for a good mastering lab".
So he (a&r dude) gives me his next record to master.
It's a pop record, well produced and written in the vein of
Kelly Clarkson recorded and mixed (and produced I believe)
by a well known well established engineer.
As I was listening to the second track and I hear good
old fashioned over modulation clear as a bell. I'm sitting with said a&r guy and I point this out to him (I would go on
to find distortion on 5 out of 12 tracks).
Rich and famous engineer says to a&r guy "you see ? this
is why I only master at sterling"
Anyway famous engineer remixes distorted songs and
sends them back to me (same distortion as the first try)
This time I don't say anything. I stayed in the digital realm
for EQ. I could not change the level as they were all maxed out.
The biggest change I made was +1.5dB @ 14K Shelf on my Weiss EQ.
Make two refs (one for a&r one for famous guy)
Famous guy tells a&r that I fucked with the harmonics on the vocals. I said shit, I knew I shouldn't have used my vocal deharmonizer (VDH).
a&r guy says, wow your right the vocals are deharmonized.
Got a kidney stone attack and landed in the hospital. My
good friend and partner in crime remastered the project 1:1
at famous guys request (distortion and all)
It's tough to be at the mercy of fools, but that's the nature of the biz I guess. Can't win.

Joe
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rnicklaus

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Re: mixing styles of the rich &famous
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2006, 01:54:26 PM »

It's good that a cold email resulted in a label trying a new mastering room - that shows willingness to grow.  Of course you are a brand name house as well.

The other thing is that everyone is insecure, including mixers.  His "mistakes" pointed out to the A&R guy instead of the mixer, may have been a mistake.  It would have been "better" to call the mixer directly and discuss what you were hearing instead of pointing it out to a third party who may have hired him.

If I had mixed the record and the mastering person was pointing out "problems" to the A&R guy instead of me, I would take that as "see, this guy is not very good" and be super pissed.  

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joeaudio

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Re: mixing styles of the rich &famous
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2006, 02:01:34 PM »

I was sitting there with the A&R in the room.
I thought about ways to stop the session without
incriminating anyone but couldn't come up with anything.

Joe
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rnicklaus

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Re: mixing styles of the rich &famous
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2006, 02:05:15 PM »

joeaudio wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 11:01

I was sitting there with the A&R in the room.
I thought about ways to stop the session without
incriminating anyone but couldn't come up with anything.

Joe


I understand.  It was a tough situation, no doubt.  Everyone likes to be protected by their "team".  

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Jan Folkson

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2006, 02:12:56 PM »

Hey Joe,

Do you prefer tube deharmonizors or the ones made from wood?

It's a known fact that spending time with a&r guys results in kidney stones.  Hope you're feeling better.

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Noiseless pickups?  What's the point?

jazzius

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2006, 02:58:46 PM »

Making famous mixer look bad to A&R guy? - bad career move - would've thought that was obvious.......Daz

Andy Krehm

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Re: mixing styles of the rich &famous
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2006, 03:11:48 PM »

joeaudio wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 13:26

I cold email a record label here in New York.
I get a response saying "we usually use sterling
but we're always looking for a good mastering lab".
So he (a&r dude) gives me his next record to master.
It's a pop record, well produced and written in the vein of
Kelly Clarkson recorded and mixed (and produced I believe)
by a well known well established engineer.
As I was listening to the second track and I hear good
old fashioned over modulation clear as a bell. I'm sitting with said a&r guy and I point this out to him (I would go on
to find distortion on 5 out of 12 tracks).
Rich and famous engineer says to a&r guy "you see ? this
is why I only master at sterling"
Anyway famous engineer remixes distorted songs and
sends them back to me (same distortion as the first try)
This time I don't say anything. I stayed in the digital realm
for EQ. I could not change the level as they were all maxed out.
The biggest change I made was +1.5dB @ 14K Shelf on my Weiss EQ.
Make two refs (one for a&r one for famous guy)
Famous guy tells a&r that I fucked with the harmonics on the vocals. I said shit, I knew I shouldn't have used my vocal deharmonizer (VDH).
a&r guy says, wow your right the vocals are deharmonized.
Got a kidney stone attack and landed in the hospital. My
good friend and partner in crime remastered the project 1:1
at famous guys request (distortion and all)
It's tough to be at the mercy of fools, but that's the nature of the biz I guess. Can't win.

Joe

Hey Joe:

Interesting post, as always, and nice to see you back on the board.

So a couple of days ago I got a call from a producer who has mastered here several times over the last five years and he asks me to fit him in at the last minute for an A/C single. So I delay my departure time and agree to do this after already mastering an album that day.

Now coincidentally, in between my album master and the single, there is an hour and a half of down time so my tech guy decides to go in the studio and try out a different signal path/routing experiment that he thinks will work in order to allow us to do real time SRC with our new Lavry box.

Anyway, the client comes in with a mix that was done by a well-known Canadian mix engineer.

I listened for a moment and then flipped over to my analog loop. I couldn't believe how loud this sucker was! An A/C "mix", no less. I had to turn it down about 11 db just so it wouldn't distort my loop.

At this point, I would normally assume that the mix was overloaded or distorted in some way but since we had just done some  work in the studio, maybe that was causing the problem.

I called my tech guy in and we started trouble-shooting. I mean how could it be Mr. Well-Known Mixer and the producer, who is a very skilled musician and always seems to bring in decent to good material bring in such an overloaded mix.

Well, long story short, we finally determined that the mix was maxed (almost "mastered") and in fact, while it wasn't obviously distorted, it did have some grungyness that wasn't helping matters.

Normally, I would just do the best I could, but given that this was a regular client, I suggested that they ask the mix guy to lighten up a bit on the compression and that would make a better master in the end.

I got an email later in the evening where the producer guy says he stopped at another engineer's place, for a second opinion, and the guy dropped it in his Pro Tools session and mastered it. The producer's comments was that the mix was pristine and so was the master. His tone implied that there must be something wrong with my set-up!

Now the delicious irony is that the engineer who gave the 2nd opinion is a very good mix engineer who does also does some mastering work. In fact, another regular producer client of mine who used him on his last album told me that  he tried to talk him out of mastering...nothing against Andy but the mixes sounded really good and didn't need it!

Fortunately, they over-ruled him mastered the album with me and were very  happy that they did.

Imagine how that engineer must have enjoyed mastering the A/C mix after I criticized it sent it away to be remixed! Now after mastering for five years for the producer, he'll probably go somewhere else the next time!

My tech guys comment was that where they checked the mix and mastered it was a recording studio and the speakers are not optimized for a critical mastering-level evaluation. All I know is that my Lipinski's show up distortion and harshness immediately and make me work really hard by b/c you can really hear when the mixes are distorted and also when I am adding any distortion via my work.

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions

www.silverbirchprod.com




joeaudio

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2006, 03:51:37 PM »

Jan Folkson wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 19:12

Hey Joe,

Do you prefer tube deharmonizors or the ones made from wood?

It's a known fact that spending time with a&r guys results in kidney stones.  Hope you're feeling better.





Hey Jan,

Thanks. I am feeling better. For deharmonizing I use
the new plug-in.

Joe
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joeaudio

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2006, 04:08:24 PM »

jazzius wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 19:58

Making famous mixer look bad to A&R guy? - bad career move - would've thought that was obvious.......Daz


What would you do there Jazzius, fake a siezure ?

Joe
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TotalSonic

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2006, 04:35:49 PM »

joeaudio wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 21:08

jazzius wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 19:58

Making famous mixer look bad to A&R guy? - bad career move - would've thought that was obvious.......Daz


What would you do there Jazzius, fake a siezure ?

Joe


It's hard to say because we haven't heard how bad the tracks were and we weren't in the room at the time - but obviously this is one situation where extreme tact and diplomacy is about the only way a positive result might come about.  One way out is tell the A&R person that you want the contact info on the engineer to ask him a couple questions - and then excuse yourself out of the room, telling him you're stopping the clock for five minutes while you check a couple things, and make the call to the engineer without being in front of the A&R rep - as all engineers that I know HATE being made to look like the bad guy in front of anyone that provides them with work!  Once you get the engineer on the line you might want to "tart out" the news by not focusing on the fact that his mixes are distorted in places - but by instead stating thatt you think you'll get a lot better results in your own work if he can print the mixes with a bit less gain for the tracks.  It's always great to give a compliment to some area of the tracks as you're making these suggestions too so that they don't feel you're just calling with attacks.  Sometimes some schmoozing, and even subtle ass-kissing can help smooth over these kinds of moments.  

I've also been provided with enormously distorted mixes and find that sometimes the client is more than ready to send unlimited or backed off mixes once they are made aware of a problem, as long as the request is put as diplomatically as possible.  But there are indeed other times you just have to deal with "pre-distorted" already slammed mixes - and sometimes I've found that making these slightly more distorted and more overly slammed is exactly what the client is looking for!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

rnicklaus

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2006, 04:51:22 PM »

joeaudio wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 10:26


As I was listening to the second track and I hear good
old fashioned over modulation clear as a bell. I'm sitting with said a&r guy and I point this out to him (I would go on
to find distortion on 5 out of 12 tracks).
Rich and famous engineer says to a&r guy "you see ? this
is why I only master at sterling"
Joe


This is the part I don't "get".  You point it out to the A&R guy for whatever reason - it's not like he heard it and it seems as the A&R guy was able to get to the engineer pretty quick or maybe the timeline is not represented.

It does come off a bit like "listen, over modulation distortion - right at this spot, can you hear it?"

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ammitsboel

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2006, 07:06:12 PM »

There are three ways to deal with this:
1) think of it as a problem and get mad about it
2) think of it as something interesting and investigate it
3) Do a bit of both

What are you going to do Joe?
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Masterer

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2006, 07:48:54 PM »

That'll teach you to try and take a Sterling client!
We feed the A&R folks little pills that make them loyal to us. Mix engineers too.



Hahahahaha [how do you type an evil laugh?]
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Chris Athens

I believe your record has reached it's "loudness potential"

Ed Littman

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2006, 07:59:28 PM »

Masterer wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 19:48



Hahahahaha Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  


try that

why not ask the A&R guy to speek to the mixer just to confirm the distortion was intentional(even thow you know it wasn't)?
Ed
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bblackwood

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Re: mixing styles of the rich & famous
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2006, 08:49:25 PM »

Masterer wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 18:48

Hahahahaha [how do you type an evil laugh?]

FYI, the correct procedure is:
MUWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters
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