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Author Topic: Multrack Masters  (Read 5417 times)

Samc

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 11:08:31 am »

Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 09 December 2010 18:02

I don't know if it's legal and I can't imagine the commercial impact, but from an educational standpoint it's a great teaching tool for both music and technology...

How so?  
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Sam Clayton

Barry Hufker

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2010, 11:25:13 pm »

It is like an autopsy or forensic anthropology.  My students and I can dissect a recording, analyze each part, hear what was sung/played and then see how it assembles back into the whole.

For instance, John Lennon's vocal on Revolution is full of half-finished/off-tempo phrases.  How much of that was on purpose I'll never know but subtle parts are revealed.  Also I was amazed to hear Paul McCartney's bass part laid out so clearly to hear every note and nuance.  On Beat It, Eddie Van Halen's guitar part is revealed to the point of hearing punch-ins.  Hearing this track revealed a new dimension of the song to me and is a great study in musical arrangement.

It is a bit like seeing the artist's brush stroke if it were a canvas or when scientists use x-rays to see what is below the paint.

Like all tools, having access to the multi-track masters isn't evil in and of itself, it is what is done with that access.  My goal is education.

Barry

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bblackwood

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2010, 09:05:17 am »

Barry Hufker wrote on Sun, 12 December 2010 22:25

Like all tools, having access to the multi-track masters isn't evil in and of itself, it is what is done with that access.  My goal is education.

I dunno, if you're not granted permission by the art's owner (license), I say it's no different than stealing music.

What you're doing with it is great - far better than most - but that doesn't make it right, imo.
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Brad Blackwood
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ssltech

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2010, 10:38:40 am »

Samc wrote

Barry Hufker wrote

I don't know if it's legal and I can't imagine the commercial impact, but from an educational standpoint it's a great teaching tool for both music and technology...

How so?


ssltech wrote

...it can be educational and instructive to examine the multitracks ALONG WITH THE COMPLETED MIX- as an insight to lots of things like balance methods, tricks, and all sorts of other stuff like control room leakage, and how the significant-versus-insignificant balance plays out.


Barry Hufker wrote

It is like an autopsy or forensic anthropology.  My students and I can dissect a recording, analyze each part, hear what was sung/played and then see how it assembles back into the whole.


This is the ONE use which I can see. -It's very helpful to use this sort of demonstration to show a student who obsesses over every slight 'unintended' sound which may creep into a microphone... or perhaps dozens of other common 'logical assumptions' (...if reducing bleed between drum mics to get some usable separation between mic channels is 'good', then surely using all manner of screens, mic shields and maybe recording the cymbals at a later time would logically be 'better', no?) and -WHEN USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE FINAL MIX- I frequently find it illuminating and instructive.

However...

My employer (an employer not unlike Barry's) has in place a policy of absolutely ZERO tolerance for pirated or copyright-infringing software on ANY work computer, network or system. With this in mind, I have advised anyone who's been brought to my attention as considering teaching using these multitracks that in the absence of permission to use these for teaching purposes, that anyone using multitracks which they don't OWN the rights to MIGHT be viewed (following a strict interpretation) be in technical breach of their contract... and at my employer this is automatic dismissal if ANY report is made.  (This is necessary because we work closely with several companies who are vulnerable to software and IP theft, and so we CANNOT be seen as tolerating or 'turning a blind eye/deaf ear'.)

Educational? -Absolutely. -I would recommend seeking permission however, to keep everything above board. -The old truism that "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" isn't good enough for my conscience.

I'm not really trying to preach here, just share how I myself view it.

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Barry Hufker

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2010, 11:34:47 am »

First, let me quickly say I am not offended that someone says it's stealing.  Standing up to say the moral thing is important and I support that.

Second, let me quickly say I am not sure using these samples is either immoral or unethical.  How can I say this?  Well it may be rationalizing but I'm going to let the copyright holder and youtube deal with that issue.  As they are videos on youtube's site, they are published for viewing and use by the public.  This is youtube's view.  And their view goes on to be, the videos will be removed when they are asked by the copyright holder.  When this happens the issue is resolved, as is any moral, ethical, legal question about them.

I have not copied the videos, nor have I used them in class (as of yet -- and wouldn't until next semester at the earliest).  I will continue to ponder the questions/points which you guys have raised.  I don't consider myself to have stolen anything because I have not copied anything.  In class, we could just view the videos online.  As an analogy, I don't have to own the Mona Lisa to enjoy it or to use it for teaching art.

I'm not looking to profit financially from the videos, although one could say that I am because I'm being paid to teach and the videos would be part of that, but I don't think that argument holds much weight. In a sense - and maybe too broad a sense - I think the videos fall into "fair use" for education.

As I've said, I have a while to ponder this.  I am a strong opponent to illegal copying of software/music.  Why I think this is somehow different is something I'll have to work out in my mind.  It may be the issue is resolved by others before then.

Barry
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ssltech

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2010, 03:49:37 pm »

That's a perfectly equable and even-keeled way to look at it, I feel.

In fact 'Fair Use' under US copyright law has exceptions for teaching... but I'm not sure of the details or ins & outs, so I can neither advise nor rely upon any aspect of that approach.

As I mentioned, I'm not trying to 'preach' in particular; -rather I'm concerned that all concerned should give it the sort of thought and consideration which I feel that I can trust Barry to do.

Sadly however, most students merely 'seize' upon these downloads, pull out a plum, and say "what a good boy am I"

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

arconaut

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2010, 04:44:54 pm »

ssltech wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 15:49


Sadly however, most students merely 'seize' upon these downloads, pull out a plum, and say "what a good boy am I"




That's not happening here. Our students are too busy jumping over candlesticks.
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el duderino

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2010, 05:15:21 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Sun, 12 December 2010 23:25

It is like an autopsy or forensic anthropology.  My students and I can dissect a recording, analyze each part, hear what was sung/played and then see how it assembles back into the whole.



Like all tools, having access to the multi-track masters isn't evil in and of itself, it is what is done with that access.  My goal is education.

Barry




Absolutely. This really isn't much different than when I was an intern at a studio and found 2" tapes from an album I really liked in the tape library. I asked the GA about possibly listening to it one day, eventually we did. Around the same time I was reading an interview with Tchad Blake and he discussed how he likes to record drums, which was especially intriguing to me as I knew very little.

Being able to put up that multitrack and hear Tchad Blake's drums broken down was eye opening to say the least. What was  also just as useful was the track sheet and notes with it!

Plenty of people hate this, but as a purely educational tool it can be a very useful supplement. Considering kids starting out generally don't have the opportunity to work in a large facility and work with a wide range of engineers these days, i'd imagine it to be even more useful now.
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Berolzheimer

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2010, 05:43:38 pm »

Is it possible that some of these things got out because someone at the labels was trying to peddle the tracks for hip-hop usage?
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Tidewater

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2010, 07:02:00 am »

bblackwood wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 09:05


What you're doing with it is great - far better than most



You ALWAYS liked Barry's mixes better.

Rolling Eyes
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ssltech

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2010, 11:55:52 am »

Barry mixes batter?

No wonder it's a piece of cake for him!
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

ScotcH

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2010, 12:44:45 pm »

To me most of these sounds like crap ... just ripepd from guitar here/rock band.  They're just sub mixes anyway, with the effects already printed, right?  I suppose it's kinda fun to listen to, but it's not like these are the oringinal recorded tracks that one can "remix" for fun, practice, or sale, or whatever.  I suppose it is interresting to hear that many of the tracks are far from perfect in the performance, noises, and glitches way ... I guess that IS eductational to students of the art (ie, don't sweat the small stuff if the take is great!).
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DarinK

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Re: Multrack Masters
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2010, 01:55:22 pm »

ScotcH wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 09:44

To me most of these sounds like crap ... just ripepd from guitar here/rock band.  They're just sub mixes anyway, with the effects already printed, right?  I suppose it's kinda fun to listen to, but it's not like these are the oringinal recorded tracks that one can "remix" for fun, practice, or sale, or whatever.  I suppose it is interresting to hear that many of the tracks are far from perfect in the performance, noises, and glitches way ... I guess that IS eductational to students of the art (ie, don't sweat the small stuff if the take is great!).



A lot of them are not submixes, they're what's on the multitrack.  Much of this stuff was recorded on 4, 8 or 16 track, so the "submixing with effects printed" took place during the recording process.  They are the original recorded tracks that were used in the final mix.
In other cases, they are indeed "rock band" submixes, and not as informative.
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