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Author Topic: Sontecs...  (Read 272301 times)

Jerry Tubb

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #90 on: February 10, 2006, 12:38:35 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 22:25

Yah, to me the 3-4k area on the 9500 was a touch harsh. Not bad, but obvious...


Isn't 3-4kHz a bit harsh by nature, when boosted on any EQ?

After all that's the range that the (human) ear is most sensitive.

What makes the Sontec different in this range, less harmonic distortion?

Curious


p.s. noticed there's an ITI (230) on eBay at the moment.

p.s.s. anyone know of a website that discusses the history and evolution of the Sontec, ITI, and Massenburg EQs, or am I lookin' at it?
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Bob Boyd

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #91 on: February 10, 2006, 01:18:48 PM »

Jerry Tubb wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 11:38

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 22:25

Yah, to me the 3-4k area on the 9500 was a touch harsh. Not bad, but obvious...


Isn't 3-4kHz a bit harsh by nature, when boosted on any EQ?

After all that's the range that the (human) ear is most sensitive.

What makes the Sontec different in this range, less harmonic distortion?

Curious


p.s. noticed there's an ITI (230) on eBay at the moment.

p.s.s. anyone know of a website that discusses the history and evolution of the Sontec, ITI, and Massenburg EQs, or am I lookin' at it?

Yeah, but I know exactly what Brad is talking about and even though there a lot of things I like about the 9500, I hardly ever add gain with mine in that range.  That area on the Maselec, by contrast, is completely different.  Much more smooth.
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Bob Boyd
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Bob Boyd

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #92 on: February 10, 2006, 01:20:35 PM »

jfrigo wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 10:55

Bob Boyd wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 07:29

Can anyone here draw any comparisons between the EAR and the Massive Passive?


The EAR is not as colored and adjusting one band doesn't change the one next to it.


Interesting.  Thanks for the info Jay.

Worth a listen you think?
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Bob Boyd
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jrussell

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Jonathan Russell
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #94 on: February 10, 2006, 01:37:41 PM »

jrussell wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 12:31

 http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2004/december/content/content4 .html


Gracias.

a short, but informative page.
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bblackwood

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #95 on: February 10, 2006, 01:41:04 PM »

Jerry Tubb wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 11:38

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 22:25

Yah, to me the 3-4k area on the 9500 was a touch harsh. Not bad, but obvious...


Isn't 3-4kHz a bit harsh by nature, when boosted on any EQ?

I mean with no boost or cut applied - just the sound of the box at unity...
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

Bob Boyd

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #96 on: February 10, 2006, 02:03:11 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 12:41

Jerry Tubb wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 11:38

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 22:25

Yah, to me the 3-4k area on the 9500 was a touch harsh. Not bad, but obvious...


Isn't 3-4kHz a bit harsh by nature, when boosted on any EQ?

I mean with no boost or cut applied - just the sound of the box at unity...

That's the part that really seems strange to me.  Mine is transparent.  I've also ready stories when BL had dared people to tell if it's in line on not.  I'm guessing something was wrong with that unit.
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Bob Boyd
ambientdigital, Houston

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bblackwood

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #97 on: February 10, 2006, 02:07:30 PM »

Bob Boyd wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 13:03

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 12:41

Jerry Tubb wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 11:38

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 22:25

Yah, to me the 3-4k area on the 9500 was a touch harsh. Not bad, but obvious...


Isn't 3-4kHz a bit harsh by nature, when boosted on any EQ?

I mean with no boost or cut applied - just the sound of the box at unity...

That's the part that really seems strange to me.  Mine is transparent.  I've also ready stories when BL had dared people to tell if it's in line on not.  I'm guessing something was wrong with that unit.

Considering others have heard the same thing, I'm thinking some people just dig it, some don't...
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

mikepecchio

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #98 on: February 10, 2006, 02:07:55 PM »

Bob Boyd wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 13:18


Yeah, but I know exactly what Brad is talking about and even though there a lot of things I like about the 9500, I hardly ever add gain with mine in that range.  That area on the Maselec, by contrast, is completely different.  Much more smooth.



I never tried the 9500 but Ive used an 8200 alot.  I am familiar with the subtle GML "zippyness" in the upper mids.  But for the most part I am fond of it. It can help "wake up" a stale, lo-fi mix without sounding like an exciter.  I can see why someone working on acoustic music or consistantly very well recorded material would see this as a fault but for me it has usually been a benefit.

By the way, I think it is also present to some extent in the mic pre and mixers that use the 9202 opamp (I think that is the model#) sony music in NYC recently built a 36 input custom console based on the GML mini-mixer modules. they were well aware of the "sheen" these circuits produce. word is the hip hop guys love it.

mike p
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ammitsboel

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #99 on: February 10, 2006, 03:59:47 PM »

Bob Boyd wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 20:03

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 12:41

Jerry Tubb wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 11:38

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 22:25

Yah, to me the 3-4k area on the 9500 was a touch harsh. Not bad, but obvious...


Isn't 3-4kHz a bit harsh by nature, when boosted on any EQ?

I mean with no boost or cut applied - just the sound of the box at unity...

That's the part that really seems strange to me.  Mine is transparent.  I've also ready stories when BL had dared people to tell if it's in line on not.  I'm guessing something was wrong with that unit.
It could be anything... really! what you chose to hear defines your sound. What you chose to hear is also defined by what you chose as monitor.

mikepecchio wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 20:07

I am familiar with the subtle GML "zippyness" in the upper mids.
Sounds like higher order distortion. I have enough of that in my digital equipment... might be a different distortion though.

Best Regards
Henrik
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bblackwood

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #100 on: February 10, 2006, 08:22:12 PM »

Jerry Tubb wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 11:38

p.s. noticed there's an ITI (230) on eBay at the moment.

And some think Sontecs are hard to get parts for...

Quote:

p.s.s. anyone know of a website that discusses the history and evolution of the Sontec, ITI, and Massenburg EQs, or am I lookin' at it?

Well, there are a few guys like myself who have learned tons over the years, partly by necessity and partly by curiosity. And aside from the post above with some info from various sources there's this from GM:
Quote:

Thanks for the opportunity to document the early days of the Parametric EQ. In fact, the question of "...how much of the modern-day 4 op-amp state-variable-filter-based parametric EQ..." I designed is answerable: little...sort-of. Our topologies were and are invariably based on single-opamp designs based on "T" filters. I did in fact coin the term "parametric" and published the first description of the device in a 1972 AES preprint, which is still available. Burgess Macneal might wish to be heard on this as well, but I think the following is pretty accurate.

In my informed opinion only four people could possibly lay claim to the modern concept: Bob Meushaw, Burgess Macneal, Daniel Flickinger, and myself; I don't know Dan, and I understand that he's (wisely, perhaps) been out of audio since somewhere around the time of the Ike Turner/Bolic Sound debacle.

Our (Bob's, Burgess' and my) sweep-tunable EQ was borne, more or less, out of a idea that Burgess and I had around 1966 or 1967 for an EQ that would avoid inductors and switches, both expensive and seemingly-flawed items in that day. In 1964 or 65 we had built a console for Recordings Incorporated of Baltimore that utilized the first Fairchild monolythic IC's, both 709's and 716's. The performance was woefully inadequate, and our later designs were built around discrete-transistor op-amps.

Somewhere around 1967, Bob Meushaw (an old friend of mine from Poly, who went on to Princton and has since disappeared into the anonimity of the National Security Administration) built a three-band, frequency-adjustable, fixed-Q, IC op-amp-based EQ based on passive 2 resistor/2 capacitor or 3 resistor/3 capacitor "T" filters - a design basically taken out of a 1940's Bell Labs filter handbook. The user interface was embryonic - boosts and cuts were done by independent controls - and the high-end EQ was a wierd, three-pole "T filter". The performance was flawed - the op-amps were really noisy and the three-pole HF section had a overly-sharp, asymetrical bell-curve. But in 1968 I started doing recordings using this prototype, and started discovering advantages of using it rather than the available EQ's of the day: Fairchild console modules, Altec graphic EQ's, and Lang or Cinema Engineering program EQ's.

By 1969 I was spending all of my time designing circuitry sufficient to get to an elegant user interface: we perceived this as three controls adjusting, independently, the parameters for each of three bands for a recording console. This console was for ITI, which had absorbed Recordings Incorporated, and the device was by no means the raison d'etre for ITI. It's pathetically intelligence-challenged chief exec, Jack Best, imagined himself to be a visionary captain of industry (Jack had slipped some cash to Spiro Agnew - remember him? - in trade for a position on the CAB), and was producing and distributing business programs on cassette. He needed studios with consoles, and I had an opportunity. I remember agonizing over the topology for the EQ for months, and asking everyone I knew for help. One person comes to mind: there was a well-known engineer working next door at Aircraft Armaments who looked at the goals and stated that he felt that the circuit solution was impossible or impractical. His hame was Walt Jung and he went on to write the "IC OpAmp Cookbook" a few years later.

Incidentally, during that time I was taking Electrical Engineering at Johns Hopkins University, a school that was as medieval, apathetic and oppressive as schooling in the 60's could get. I got into a row with a 'professor', who looked at a schematic for a gyrator that we had built and declared it "of theoretical interest only", and "impractical" to implement. Seeing this as a sign, I dropped out of college.

The first and only ITI console (which later sank into the cold depths of the Baltimore harbor, but that's another story), and then the ME-230 Parametric EQ, used a discrete op-amp, which was designed by Chick Sauter, a video electronics design engineer, from whom I learn much. This discrete op-amp had 2N4250A PNP inputs and MPSU06/56 outputs, and at least two *more* gain stages inbetween, and was not particularly stable. But was magnitudes quieter than the available IC's of the day, and had at least 6 or 8dB more headroom due to the higher (+/- 28v) rails. Certain Los Angeles engineers (Rik Pekonnen / Allen Sides) still think that this was the cleanest EQ I've ever built. I think they've been smoking something.

I remember the ITI console being finished sometime in 1969 (although I may be off a year), and I did alot of recording on it, although I don't remember anything we did finding a large market. Also, our choice of a Beyer input transformer limited the low-end performance, so it wasn't particularly a "hi-fi" console. But I was certainly doing recording with it long before I saw my first Flickinger console at the New York AES in 1971, the show at which we introduced the ME-230. I remember little from that show save comments such as, "where are the click-stops?" Deane Jensen (my childhood neighbor and friend) took pictures of the console around this time, but God knows what happened to them.

I wrote and delivered the AES paper on Parametrics at the Los Angeles show in 1972 (I'd be delighted to forward a PDF of it to anyone who's interested). Two things of note. First, it's the first mention of "Parametric" associated with sweep-tunable EQ. Second, we missed the submission deadline and Burgess and I type-set (on an early IBM typesetter) and printed the pre-prints ourselves (we had a process darkroom and printing plant for record labels and jackets), under the guidelines of the AES; there's a Chemco exposure control strip on the final paper. We never thought of patenting or copyrighting anything; Jack Best couldn't claim the slightest use to anything I was doing.

Several things come to mind from that period:

I met a brilliant engineer, David Blackmer, at the session at which I delivered the first paper; he was delivering one of his early papers on either his VCA (which changed the industry) or noise-reduction (which was somewhat flawed compared to Ray Dolby's). I came away from the chance encounter and spent the next four or five years digging to dynamics controllers, inspired by Blackmer's work, mostly for API at that time.

The first commercial parametric sold was to Gerhard Lehner of Barclay Studios in Paris (where I would later work after moving there in 1973).

Some years later I came to the aid of...was it Bill Thompson of Ashley Audio? Ray Dolby's attorneys were trying to "mine" the Dolby circuit patents and levy a fee of...geez what was it? 5c per band for a 1/3rd octave EQ's? I had previously implemented the circuit that Dolby engineers had patented in 1976; it is fundamental in the implementation of "reciprocal" curves. Luckily, it was described in an ITI manual which predated Dolby's patent, thus establishing "prior art".

After I moved to Los Angeles in 1975 I redesigned the basic discrete op-amp. For all of the GML and Sontec designs (Burgess and I, among others, own the company jointly, though you'd never know it) I designed two significant revisions. The first had truly stupendous HF response; it featured a 2N5566 dual J-FET running at an ungodly high current, and a highly-linear second stage which featured the dominant pole. It was ridiculously fast (150mHz gain-bandwidth, 600v/us slew rate) and stable (no instability over a 60dB gain-variation range) as it was unreliable (from smoking to out-and-out explosions). We've long since gone to a fast, very-high-gain NPN input stage, keeping the high-voltage gain 2nd stage for GML designs, although the design evolves as semiconductor manufacturers obsolete discrete parts.

Finally, what I'm proudest of is less in designing devices alone, and more in exploring the ever-expanding applications and uses of gear, and then applying that knowledge to designs.

George Massenburg

George has been pretty tight-lipped over the years about the HS1000 - the only part difficult to find for the Sontec EQs. While I understand his opinion that his current products are superior, I don't buy his claim that the only reason people still like Sontecs is because "they are cheaper". The aren't, and they can be a pain to keep repaired, but those who use them know they are worth it. I'm also of the opinion that he should be more forthcoming with information concerning the Sontec line as it remains popular and he is the gatekeeper...
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Brad Blackwood
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #101 on: February 11, 2006, 12:28:10 AM »

Holy Flying Geronimo Brad!

Thanks for sharing... great info.

Maybe one day, someone (namely GM) will publish a full history, complete with photos, specs, etc. of the ITI, Sontec, GML lineage... but probably only us geeky MEs & AEs would care.

Although I'm a happy NSEQ-2, GML 8200 & Avalon 2055 owner, I still miss the smooth sound of that old Sontec (250?) we had back in the early 90s. IIRC it was one of the very first, very low serial #, if not the very first one. The newer ones don't sound the same.

Cheers
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Andy Krehm

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #102 on: February 11, 2006, 09:36:18 PM »

Has anyone tried SPL's PQ Mastering Equalizer? Even better, how does it compare the the Sontec, Masalec and GML?

Second question: Has anyone had the opportunity to A/B the MDW Parametric EQ plug-in as a TDM plug-in vs the MDW EQ in the TC6000?

Thanks,

Andy
Silverbirch Productions

Bob Boyd

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #103 on: February 11, 2006, 10:05:11 PM »

Andy Krehm wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 20:36

Second question: Has anyone had the opportunity to A/B the MDW Parametric EQ plug-in as a TDM plug-in vs the MDW EQ in the TC6000?

Thanks,

Andy
Silverbirch Productions

George confirmed to me that the MDW Hi-Res EQ in the 6000 and for TDM are coded the same.
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Bob Boyd
ambientdigital, Houston

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Andy Krehm

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Re: Where are those Sontecs?
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2006, 01:34:07 PM »

Bob Boyd wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 22:05

Andy Krehm wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 20:36

Second question: Has anyone had the opportunity to A/B the MDW Parametric EQ plug-in as a TDM plug-in vs the MDW EQ in the TC6000?

Thanks,

Andy
Silverbirch Productions

George confirmed to me that the MDW Hi-Res EQ in the 6000 and for TDM are coded the same.


Thanks for info, Bob.

I looked on your site (nicely done, except would have liked to see pics of your studio!) and see that you use Pro Tools. I'm assuming that you don't have the MDW plug-in for PTs or you would have offered your observations on the difference between the two, if any.

The reason I am asking these questions is because I have one seemingly missing piece of gear in my otherwise reasonably complete gear list and that is a precision analog eq, which is why I am following this link.

I'm trying to decide if my Weiss EQ1-MKll-DYN-LP, MDW Parametric (now in PTs or TC, if I decide to buy it), TC EQ (in TC 6000) is enough for precision work or whether the addition of  one of the following, SPL's PQ Mastering Equalizer, Masalec or GML (and I suppose one could add the STC-8 to the list) would make my work better/easier.

I also have the Manley MP and the rare but unique sounding  NightPro EQ1-D so I'm not wanting for "colour".

I must admit, without bringing another eq unit here, I'm happy with the sound of what I'm doing and don't really feel like I'm lacking any equalization options but since so many of you have a precision outboard analog unit(s), I'm wondering what I'm missing!

Opinions welcomed!

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions
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