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Author Topic: 80-200Hz fatness?  (Read 11407 times)

lagerfeldt

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80-200Hz fatness?
« on: December 06, 2005, 06:28:06 pm »

I'm looking for some way of warming up the low end. Gaining a lot on my Gyratec X (Vari Mu) goes a long way and also increases the stereo perception a lot (I call it Daddy's Little Helper).

However, I'm trying to add "fatness" mainly to the 80-200Hz region. I have this special sound in mind, like tape saturating almost on the point of distortion (nice analog sounding distortion of course).

Some of the mixes I get are very clinical dance mixes which I warm up with the Gyratec and also do the best EQ to enhance the frequencies. Some additional low level compression brings up some low end details and lots of high end details. I also use the SSL Type 4000 clone which provides a nice glue compression.

I even tried a bit of the Waves S1 Shuffle since it primarily targets the low end, but that's just spreading and doesn't do what I want at all. Bah.

It's something else I'm looking for.. I wonder if the Portico Tape thingy will do it, but I'd like to target the low frequencies only if possible.

Ged Leitch

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2005, 06:36:18 pm »

Your probably looking for outboard but if not then you could try PSP's mix saturator, it has seperate processing for bass and treble bands, and had 3 valve modes, 3 tape modes.
Hope that helps mate.
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danickstr

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2005, 06:42:24 pm »

Is this mainly for club mixes?  What may help for stereophonic listening is separating the lows and running them through a hig-quality tube compressor, not for compressions sake, but for the harmonic distortion that occurs.  It adds harmonics that can beef up that area without smudging it around, mainly because it cuts out some frequencies while harmonically building on others.  
this way there is more focus on the important areas.
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lagerfeldt

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2005, 06:43:34 pm »

Gerald,
Thanks, I'll try the PSP.

Danickstr,
Originally at some point I was getting a Tube Tech multiband comp but chickened out because it got a bad rep, so I though it would be a waste of time to go thru the hassle of getting one on trial.

However, how would I go about the procedure you describe? If I try anything like that I can't get things back together without it falling apart..? Just remember the low end is already getting a fair bit of tube gain stage in the Gyratec,

TotalSonic

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2005, 07:08:59 pm »

I'd probably look towards an analog eq with some character to do what you're asking.   i.e. the Amek/Neve Medici's low band with the "warm" button engaged can do what you're asking pretty well.  From what I saw at the AES demonstration the Legendary Masterpiece, with it's ability to add a couple different saturation types to only one part of the spectrum, and also eq's with similar tweakable character (with "warm" now called "glow"), would be just the ticket for what you are asking.  

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Dave Davis

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2005, 07:12:56 pm »

In addition to many of the good suggestions above, I'd consider something non-obvious: A good high pass filter below the lowest musically useful information you have.  Undesireable low harmonics eat a lot of power, and really do nasty things to the audible portions you care about.  Also, don't automatically assume you have anything worthwhile at 20Hz, simply because that's the lowest number you see... you may find that a setting considerably higher (>30 Hz) tightens up your bass in every environment.

-d-

Dave Davis
QCA Mastering/UltraInteractive
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lagerfeldt

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2005, 07:21:01 pm »

TotalSonic, thanks for the suggestion. I'm actually missing good analog EQ with those functions. I wonder if that'll do it though, as I'm really after quite a drastic effect? Hm, perhaps.

Dave, indeed. I usually do a 20Hz cut or even a bit higher, but usually I prefer to do a 20Hz cut and then roll off a bit via a shelf from e.g. around 50 Hz. That tightens things up, especially as the tube gain lifts the low end again.

danickstr

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2005, 07:34:56 pm »

To do that type of thing, you would have to figure out the delay that would occur during separation and the best tool for that would be protools, which I am assuming you are using.  Any DAW could do it, and the delay would be in the range of a few milliseconds at most.

As a point of reference, the delay in a club from the bass in the subs and the mains overhead is more than what would occur if you did nothing, but it always is a good idea to try your best to "keep it together".  In terms of samples, the delay from a mic x feet away can be calculated by taking the 44.1 k, dividing it into 1100 FPS for 44 samples per foot, and you find out that drums overhead mics 5 feet away are like 200 samples off of the close-miced kick and snare, for another FYI thing.
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TotalSonic

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2005, 07:40:35 pm »

lagerfeldt wrote on Wed, 07 December 2005 00:21

TotalSonic, thanks for the suggestion. I'm actually missing good analog EQ with those functions. I wonder if that'll do it though, as I'm really after quite a drastic effect? Hm, perhaps.


hmmm... Depending on how big of a change you mean by "drastic" -  it might not do it - although maybe if you combined it with a multiband comp only set for a single low to low-mid band it would do it for you.  I've used an SPL Vitalizer and analog eq's to achieve some semi-drastic changes on the bottom end also.

It can get ugly real fast - but Wave's Maxx Bass might do what you asking  also.  

But If the client really wants mastering changes to be "drastic" from their original mix - but only want to change a specific freq band or sound of one instrument I usually direct them to try and bring these kinds of things out in their mix first.  I usually think of mastering as trying to just enhance the integrity of the mix instead of drastically changing it.  Then again - if they are in a time bind or simply do not have access to the unmixed tracks then you have to make do.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bblackwood

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2005, 07:50:35 pm »

Welcome Dave Davis - glad to see you here!
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lagerfeldt

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2005, 08:15:57 pm »

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 07 December 2005 01:40

hmmm... Depending on how big of a change you mean by "drastic" -  it might not do it - although maybe if you combined it with a multiband comp only set for a single low to low-mid band it would do it for you.  I've used an SPL Vitalizer and analog eq's to achieve some semi-drastic changes on the bottom end also.

It can get ugly real fast - but Wave's Maxx Bass might do what you asking  also.  

But If the client really wants mastering changes to be "drastic" from their original mix - but only want to change a specific freq band or sound of one instrument I usually direct them to try and bring these kinds of things out in their mix first.  I usually think of mastering as trying to just enhance the integrity of the mix instead of drastically changing it.  Then again - if they are in a time bind or simply do not have access to the unmixed tracks then you have to make do.

Best regards,
Steve Berson


It's actually not the client as such, it's me.. A lot of these mixes are pure digitally created i.e. from soft synths and soft samplers and mixed ITB.

Of course words are relative, I would say 3dB is drastic in mastering, e.g. adding 3dB at 200Hz can really make a difference good or bad. So when I say drastic I actually mean "saturation", "fatness", "analog distortion", not just a "clean nice bass boost" Smile

MaxxBass is something I need to play around with more, but it doesn't distort harmonics like I want, it seems.

My frustration stems from a mastering I did a couple of days ago. The first mix I got had a kick with decent low end but no punch, and the bass synth was incredibly low in volume. Some multiband and EQ rectified it quite a bit. The client was satisfied with the mastering but realized his mix - or actually his choice of sounds - was poor.

So he re-did the mix and I mastered it again, but from scratch. The kick now had punch and some deep low end but the bass synth was still low in volume. The client was very happy and loved everything this time. Of course it cost him 2x fee but next time he'll probably pay even more attention to the sounds and mix, and follow the pointers I gave him.

However, my frustration is that I wasn't completely satisfied with the mastering myself. I felt it just needed a bit of this saturation in the area around the fullness of the kick (it had punch and sub but lacked some fatness), it was too clean and digital - even after some excellent tube saturation on the whole mix.

EP

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2005, 08:50:27 pm »

lagerfeldt wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 23:28

I have this special sound in mind, like tape saturating almost on the point of distortion (nice analog sounding distortion of course)


Try tape yet? For less then the cost of many of the tools mentioned you could set up a 1/4" two-track deck and give it a whirl. Or use a friends.

I do think this sort of sound is best derived in the mixing-not an easy thing to get that 'burial mix' bass in the mastering alone- Razz but I try too!



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robot gigante

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2005, 09:52:30 pm »

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 19:08

I'd probably look towards an analog eq with some character to do what you're asking.   i.e. the Amek/Neve Medici's low band with the "warm" button engaged can do what you're asking pretty well.  From what I saw at the AES demonstration the Legendary Masterpiece, with it's ability to add a couple different saturation types to only one part of the spectrum, and also eq's with similar tweakable character (with "warm" now called "glow"), would be just the ticket for what you are asking.  

Best regards,
Steve Berson


I own a Medici as well, and the 'warm' function is fantastic for what you're talking about... but too much for mastering imho, it can make the whole mix distort too quickly even at low settings- I think I've only been able to use the 'warm' function once or twice successfully when mastering.

However, for mixing it can be great since you can run just the bass through it and not worry about distorting the other stuff.  In fact it's one of those things where I haven't been able to find anything similar that does what it does...

Just my 2
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nmw

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2005, 10:47:44 pm »

how are you EQ'ing too?

i often find, especialy for alot of dance material i work on that if i use a shelf on the bottom end to boost, set at around the 160Hz ish area works infinitely better than using a regular bell.

it seems that often people dont take it high enough up, stopping at 80 or 100 Hz as they think they are getting out of bass area and you miss out on getting some real richness in the bottom end.

you could also have a look at a HEDD unit. may prove just the ticket though it sounds perhaps like the effect you are after may be more than this can give....

as for getting a rhythm and sound type bottom end and sound. thats something you really need to get working on at mixing. just like all the old keith hudson stuff. amazing bottom end and a real crunchyness all over that you cant stick on at the end Smile
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Ed Littman

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Re: 80-200Hz fatness?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2005, 10:50:02 pm »

lagerfeldt wrote on Tue, 06 December 2005 18:28

I'm looking for some way of warming up the low end. However, I'm trying to add "fatness" mainly to the 80-200Hz region.
I have this special sound in mind, like tape saturating almost on the point of distortion (nice analog sounding distortion of course).



Either the Chandler LTD-2 or the crane song Hedd 192, or both would be your ticket!
Ed
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