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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Brad Blackwood => Topic started by: genericperson on June 19, 2005, 04:07:25 pm

Title: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: genericperson on June 19, 2005, 04:07:25 pm
I would be psyched if Weiss decided to put their hardware eq/comps onto dedicated PCI slot cards.

That way D.W. can control the dsp architecture and copy-protection scheme, but we won't have to pay for the extra expense of a rackmount box with i/o, knobs, displays, psu's, etc.

Anybody else like this idea? Very Happy

Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: TotalSonic on June 19, 2005, 04:25:15 pm
genericperson wrote on Sun, 19 June 2005 21:07

I would be psyched if Weiss decided to put their hardware eq/comps onto dedicated PCI slot cards.

That way D.W. can control the dsp architecture and copy-protection scheme, but we won't have to pay for the extra expense of a rackmount box with i/o, knobs, displays, psu's, etc.

Anybody else like this idea? Very Happy




Based on his post from an earlier thread on this forum I think Daniel Weiss actually like this idea too.  I certainly would jump on board if the EQ and DS were ported to PCI card with access to the plugs in a native format such as DX or VST that could be loaded into the host app of your choice if it was priced at around 1 to 2 g's.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Arf! Mastering on June 19, 2005, 05:16:04 pm
He is working on a multi-channel DSP platform in an external case which will link to the host via firewire and use a plug-in architecture in the host app.
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: MASSIVE Mastering on June 19, 2005, 06:07:28 pm
I just drooled all over my shirt...   Shocked
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Bob Boyd on June 19, 2005, 09:55:56 pm
The idea definitely has it's advantages... save and recall easily, etc...

You could brag to all the IT guys that you have SHARCs in your computer...

If the PCI slot format still has a bright future, I would imagine you'd get greater throughput using the slot rather than a firewire port.

I just don't want to relive the Mac NuBus to Mac PCI transition again.
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Jerry Tubb on June 20, 2005, 01:45:08 am
Bob Boyd wrote on Sun, 19 June 2005 20:55

I just don't want to relive the Mac NuBus to Mac PCI transition again.


Ouch !!! ...that really hurts... did you have to bring that one up Bob ?  Very Happy

Seriously though, Weiss EQ in a firewire box, or a PCI card...
I'd go for that in a Swiss pico-second !  Cool

p.s. whassup with the new PCI-X cards ?
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Luke Fellingham on June 20, 2005, 03:00:47 am
Bob Boyd wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 02:55



If the PCI slot format still has a bright future, I would imagine you'd get greater throughput using the slot rather than a firewire port.


I guess PCI does have higher potential throughput, but if TC's firewire Powercore platform is anything to go by then firewire should still be able to provide all the throughput that is likely to be needed!
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: TotalSonic on June 20, 2005, 10:11:52 am
JayTea wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 06:45


p.s. whassup with the new PCI-X cards ?




From my understanding (which as a disclaimer might not be perfect) they should have nearly double the through put of the standard PCI buss.  I believe you'll need a new motherboard with PCI-X slots to use the cards but apparently the slots will be backwards compatible with standard PCI cards.

If this is inaccurate someone please post a correction!

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Bob Boyd on June 20, 2005, 02:53:54 pm
Well, here it is from the man himself...

I emailed Daniel about the possibility of a PCI card and he replied:

"A PCI card is too small for our requirements.

Regards,
Daniel"
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: genericperson on June 20, 2005, 07:18:13 pm
That's good 411, Bob.

I would have thought that most of the 19" rackmount was pretty open inside, kind of like an Akai sampler!

If Protools can fit all of their processor stuff on their super-mix Accel card (or whatever the latest is), I would have thought Weiss could have crammed a bunch of Sharcs on a full-length card and be done with it.

I would buy one card for one function.  Like a card just for the DS1mkII, and another one for something else like the eq-dyn.

My computer has 5 pci slots.  I'd let Weiss hog the remaining slots no problem.

This external firewire box sounds great.  I just hope it doesn't get too fancy and be up at the $7000 price point.  I'd simply like a stereo DS-1 MK II card for $2000.  I'd pair that up with the Algorhythmix Orange and Red, plus a few other dsp things and be ready to party.

The DS-1 MKII is wicked, but at $7000 it's killing me.  I'm still saving up for my playback system!  Embarassed
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: dcollins on June 20, 2005, 11:59:54 pm
Bob Boyd wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 11:53

Well, here it is from the man himself...

I emailed Daniel about the possibility of a PCI card and he replied:

"A PCI card is too small for our requirements.

Regards,
Daniel"

I'm not qualified to get Daniel's lunch, but I wonder.  Today's fancy video card has more horsepower than a lowly stereo eq, doesn't it? And a wire straight to the PSU.

A Watt or two per part shouldn't be a problem, even if you have four or five big ones.

Even Sonic was able to get five 56k's in there!

DC
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: TotalSonic on June 21, 2005, 12:22:33 am
dcollins wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 04:59

Bob Boyd wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 11:53

Well, here it is from the man himself...

I emailed Daniel about the possibility of a PCI card and he replied:

"A PCI card is too small for our requirements.

Regards,
Daniel"

I'm not qualified to get Daniel's lunch, but I wonder.  Today's fancy video card has more horsepower than a lowly stereo eq, doesn't it? And a wire straight to the PSU.

A Watt or two per part shouldn't be a problem, even if you have four or five big ones.

Even Sonic was able to get five 56k's in there!

DC



Yeah - it doesn't make sense to me either.  The recent Sydec Mixpander PCI card, for example, has _9_ Motorola DSP chips on it - nothing to sneeze at considering this card is capable of 64 independent audio streams routed through 32busses while powering power hungry plugs like the CEDAR & TC stuff at the same time.  Why couldn't that kind of power be concentrated to just run 6 channels of the EQ & DS??

also - It doubly doesn't make sense to me considering that in most cases external Firewire devices end up routed through the PCI buss anyway!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Daniel Weiss on June 21, 2005, 12:32:38 am
dcollins wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 05:59

Bob Boyd wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 11:53

Well, here it is from the man himself...

I emailed Daniel about the possibility of a PCI card and he replied:

"A PCI card is too small for our requirements.

Regards,
Daniel"

I'm not qualified to get Daniel's lunch, but I wonder.  Today's fancy video card has more horsepower than a lowly stereo eq, doesn't it? And a wire straight to the PSU.

A Watt or two per part shouldn't be a problem, even if you have four or five big ones.

Even Sonic was able to get five 56k's in there!

DC




Well, the raw horsepower would fit on a PCI, agreed, but we had some other design constraints, like:
- platform independence, i.e. not only PC or MAC but also hardware type remote control w/o computer (e.g. for products we plan in our highend-hifi department or for specific one of a kind applications or for OEMs).

- versatile, modular audio interfacing, including analog for certain applications, which would mean a breakout box if we used a PCI card.

- Modularity of DSP power which allows for upgrading in terms of number of DSPs as well as type of DSPs (new generations of DSPs).

- protection of intellectual property, which is simpler in an external box.

- physical presence of a Weiss box - which looks good in any studio  Smile

The Powerhouse (as we call the box) has the following features:
- Up to 10 Sharc DSPs (5 modules at 2 sharcs each) with a total of up to 80 MWords of fast RAM
- 4 slots for audio interfaces, the first interface we designed is an 8 channel AES/EBU I/O in one slot
- versatile syncing, (almost) no restrictions to sampling rates, e.g. DXD is possible
- Ethernet / firewire connection to the host computer
- MIDI / RS232 ports for special applications

Daniel
www.weiss.ch
(there isn't anything about the Powerhouse on our site yet)

Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: TotalSonic on June 21, 2005, 12:36:07 am
Daniel Weiss wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 05:32



Well, the raw horsepower would fit on a PCI, agreed, but we had some other design constraints, like:
- platform independence, i.e. not only PC or MAC but also hardware type remote control w/o computer (e.g. for products we plan in our highend-hifi department or for specific one of a kind applications or for OEMs).

- versatile, modular audio interfacing, including analog for certain applications, which would mean a breakout box if we used a PCI card.

- Modularity of DSP power which allows for upgrading in terms of number of DSPs as well as type of DSPs (new generations of DSPs).

- protection of intellectual property, which is simpler in an external box.

- physical presence of a Weiss box - which looks good in any studio  Smile

The Powerhouse (as we call the box) has the following features:
- Up to 10 Sharc DSPs (5 modules at 2 sharcs each) with a total of up to 80 MWords of fast RAM
- 4 slots for audio interfaces, the first interface we designed is an 8 channel AES/EBU I/O in one slot
- versatile syncing, (almost) no restrictions to sampling rates, e.g. DXD is possible
- Ethernet / firewire connection to the host computer
- MIDI / RS232 ports for special applications

Daniel
www.weiss.ch
(there isn't anything about the Powerhouse on our site yet)




Cool stuff - thanks so much for filling us in on the details.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: genericperson on June 21, 2005, 12:50:08 am
It sounds awesome, and sounds like $7000.  Sad

I store my computers in a closet, so nothing to look at there!

I guess I'm wierd; I like PCI cards.

Phrased another way, it would be real nice to have a way to have the DS-1 MKII processing for $2000, but if it's always married to some sort of elaborate hardware, that price point will never arrive.

Even if it were native with a USB dongle, I'd be willing to scrap my motherboard and go get the latest 3.6gig pentium to run it.
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Daniel Weiss on June 21, 2005, 12:56:07 am
genericperson wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 06:50

It sounds awesome, and sounds like $7000.  Sad

I store my computers in a closet, so nothing to look at there!

I guess I'm wierd; I like PCI cards.

Phrased another way, it would be real nice to have a way to have the DS-1 MKII processing for $2000, but it seems it will always be married to some sort of elaborate hardware that drives the price up to $7000.


We try to keep the price of the Powerhouse hardware as low as possible.
(BTW, the DS1 and EQ1-MK2 models are now much lower in price than they used to be.)

Daniel
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Thomas W. Bethel on June 21, 2005, 06:35:21 am
Luke Fellingham wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 03:00

Bob Boyd wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 02:55



If the PCI slot format still has a bright future, I would imagine you'd get greater throughput using the slot rather than a firewire port.


I guess PCI does have higher potential throughput, but if TC's firewire Powercore platform is anything to go by then firewire should still be able to provide all the throughput that is likely to be needed!


We had a TC Powercore and had nothing but problems with the firewire interface. The computer would stutter and then give up completely and we would have to close down the host application (Wavelab) and start the whole process over again. We finally gave up and send the unit back to the dealer. We were told that we were not the only ones having this problem. Maybe the PCI would be a better solution...


Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: zetterstroem on June 21, 2005, 10:20:03 am
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 12:35

Luke Fellingham wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 03:00

Bob Boyd wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 02:55



If the PCI slot format still has a bright future, I would imagine you'd get greater throughput using the slot rather than a firewire port.


I guess PCI does have higher potential throughput, but if TC's firewire Powercore platform is anything to go by then firewire should still be able to provide all the throughput that is likely to be needed!


We had a TC Powercore and had nothing but problems with the firewire interface. The computer would stutter and then give up completely and we would have to close down the host application (Wavelab) and start the whole process over again. We finally gave up and send the unit back to the dealer. We were told that we were not the only ones having this problem. Maybe the PCI would be a better solution...





my pc-pals had exactly the same problem..... tried up/downgrading drivers and all that..... then we tried it on my powerbook.... not a glitch  Shocked

but personally i don't trust firewire at all..... better than usb..... but that doesn't say alot....
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: TotalSonic on June 21, 2005, 10:37:28 am
zetterstroem wrote on Tue, 21

but personally i don't trust firewire at all..... better than usb..... but that doesn't say alot....


Except USB2.0 has a 60mb/s transfer rate vs. IEEE 1394's 50mb/s transfer rate (with USB1.1 at a turtle like 1.5mb/s).  Its probably clunky driver implementations in some USB2.0 devices that makes some Firewire devices faster in actual performance.

I still also prefer PCI cards for audio devices - but one thing an external Firewire device would give you would be portability so that you could bring it from studio to studio or room to room if you wanted to.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Jerry Tubb on June 21, 2005, 11:08:35 am
TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 09:37

IEEE 1394's 50mb/s transfer rate


Firewire 800's 100mb/s transfer rate... might be good for Mac G5 owners.

Aren't FW800 cards available for PC ?

...is the FW800 (1394b) reliable ?  Cool
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: lucidwaves on June 21, 2005, 11:27:07 am
TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 15:37

zetterstroem wrote on Tue, 21

but personally i don't trust firewire at all..... better than usb..... but that doesn't say alot....


Except USB2.0 has a 60mb/s transfer rate vs. IEEE 1394's 50mb/s transfer rate (with USB1.1 at a turtle like 1.5mb/s).  Its probably clunky driver implementations in some USB2.0 devices that makes some Firewire devices faster in actual performance.

I still also prefer PCI cards for audio devices - but one thing an external Firewire device would give you would be portability so that you could bring it from studio to studio or room to room if you wanted to.

Best regards,
Steve Berson


Even with a higher theoretical xfer rate for USB 2, on actual data transfer tests that I have tried on 2 different laptops and on one desktop, firewire 400 is consistantly quicker than USB 2 by about 5%-10%.  Has anyone else tested this?
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Chris Cavell on June 21, 2005, 11:40:59 am
1394 vs. usb2 is the difference b/w isochronous and asynchronous data transfer methods in the protocol.  Firewire uses isochronous, which guarantees a fixed relatively large bandwidth, making it excellent for streaming or transferring large files.  USB2 on the other hand is typically better for smaller transfers: such as commands to/from peripherals, lots of itsy bitsy files, etc.
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: genericperson on June 22, 2005, 06:05:11 pm
I hope i'm not contributing to stuff that Brad would consider off-topic.  But the subject got on to USB vs. Firewire, just wanted to chime in with some "street wisdom" (that would be Geek Street, by the way  Very Happy )

USB 2.0 can put up comparable burst numbers to Firewire, even exceed it sometimes.  But for *sustained* transfer rates (which is what we typically rely on) Firewire is better.  Besides better speed, Firewire has more robust time-stamping of the parsed data.

And that's comparing "basic" Firewire.  The latest Firewire probably kills USB 2.0 in all areas.


"Geek Street, the King of the Beat, you seem 'em rockin' that beat from across the street."
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: TotalSonic on June 22, 2005, 08:31:00 pm
genericperson wrote on Wed, 22 June 2005 23:05

I hope i'm not contributing to stuff that Brad would consider off-topic.  But the subject got on to USB vs. Firewire, just wanted to chime in with some "street wisdom" (that would be Geek Street, by the way  Very Happy )

USB 2.0 can put up comparable burst numbers to Firewire, even exceed it sometimes.  But for *sustained* transfer rates (which is what we typically rely on) Firewire is better.  Besides better speed, Firewire has more robust time-stamping of the parsed data.

And that's comparing "basic" Firewire.  The latest Firewire probably kills USB 2.0 in all areas.


"Geek Street, the King of the Beat, you seem 'em rockin' that beat from across the street."



I appreciate yours and Chris's posts regarding this.  
It clarifies quite a bit in regard to specs vs. real world performance.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Title: Re: "Weiss on a card"
Post by: Jerry Tubb on June 22, 2005, 08:52:06 pm
genericperson wrote on Wed, 22 June 2005 17:05

I hope i'm not contributing to stuff that Brad would consider off-topic.


not speaking for Brad of course, but  I think that any topic whether gear, concepts, music, or daily life of  an ME is fair game... IMVHO.

Peace Cool