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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Brad Blackwood => Topic started by: bblackwood on July 26, 2004, 12:31:05 pm

Title: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on July 26, 2004, 12:31:05 pm
A bargain at only $800...

http://www.euphonicmasters.com/misc/Transparent_1.jpg

http://www.euphonicmasters.com/misc/Transparent_2.jpg

http://www.euphonicmasters.com/misc/Transparent_3.jpg

http://www.euphonicmasters.com/misc/Transparent_4.jpg
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on July 26, 2004, 01:08:53 pm
and the point is what?  that the price is too high?

i'd agree to that


Yet Transparent's little trick on this one cable does not defeat the lifetime of work by manufacturers like Robert Lee at Acoustic Zen

nor does it say anything about the tone of even this one cable ...
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: D Harris on July 26, 2004, 01:45:20 pm
That a riot!  You'd think that for that kind of cash they could atleast use some high quality epoxy that's not so easily removed.  Too funny.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: j.hall on July 26, 2004, 03:35:02 pm
hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha

hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaaahahahahahaha
ahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa
ahaahahahahahahahahahaha
ahahahahaha
ahahahahahahahahahahahaha
aahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

my gut hurts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Level on July 26, 2004, 03:53:47 pm
LOL Brad!!!



What is so bad about all of this...it is fraud. PT Barnum style.


Notice, the wire is >>directional>> LOL

Look up Bybee quantium purifyier. Expensive and certain audiophiles swear by this 1 dollar resistor, thing,...or whatever it is. Some of them are upper echelon in the 'credibility' department (rolls eyes)

Quantium physics? Not hardly.


I remember a blind folded test which incorporated the cheapo red and white plastic RCA interconnections, some monsters and some that were 5000.00 USD per meter (no shit).

The plastic freebees won out.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on July 26, 2004, 04:57:04 pm
Level wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 14:53

LOL Brad!!!
What is so bad about all of this...it is fraud. PT Barnum style.



Fraud?  Hardly ... just an overpriced cable.  Yet overpriced merchandise is the American Way last I knew ... the more it costs the better it must be!





There is still nothing in this example that explains why Canare Star Quad and Mogami, two common +4 cables, sound different.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: j.hall on July 26, 2004, 05:23:58 pm
lucey wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 15:57


There is still nothing in this example that explains why Canare Star Quad and Mogami, two common +4 cables, sound different.




how many times do we have to do this

where did anyone say it sounded different than another cable? why is this cable thing always about your agenda?

B-rad was simply going for a little comedy....and here we are at the beginning of the THIRD cable debate i've seen on B-rad's forum that has started with you.

i'm not trying to fire you up.....i'm just pointing out hard facts

Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Level on July 26, 2004, 05:32:42 pm
Right on j.hall. You worded that perfectly. Bravo.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on July 26, 2004, 08:49:53 pm
Just seems like a humorous example audiophoolery to me...
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Level on July 26, 2004, 08:51:41 pm
Brad, those were across the positive and negative like a loudspeaker zobel or where they simply in series with one conductor?

Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on July 26, 2004, 09:43:43 pm
Across both leads (Zobel)...
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Level on July 26, 2004, 09:48:08 pm
(Shakes head..)

Before the crossover, that could do some ugly things.....
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: dcollins on July 26, 2004, 10:12:35 pm
lucey wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 10:08

Quote:


Yet Transparent's little trick on this one cable does not defeat the lifetime of work by manufacturers like Robert Lee at Acoustic Zen



Yeah, we looked at this before.  The guy is completely full of it!

Wasn't he the fellow where all his college chums went on to be big-deal scientists and he's stuck being a "cable designer?"

Ask him how a crystal in the cable contributes to "smooth sound?"

If you could die from a bad cable, the FDA would shut these guys down in a minute, but there is no law about wasting your time and money...

Now, the Zobel (Also called Boucherot (sp?)) actually does something, by presenting a more resistive load to the amp.  No magick, actual Science.  No real effect on system damping, but I do see that claim sometimes.

Leach, as always, has a good paper on it:

 http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/ece4445/downloads/zobel. pdf

DC
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on July 27, 2004, 01:47:57 pm
dcollins wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 21:12

lucey wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 10:08

Quote:


Yet Transparent's little trick on this one cable does not defeat the lifetime of work by manufacturers like Robert Lee at Acoustic Zen



Yeah, we looked at this before.  The guy is completely full of it!

Wasn't he the fellow where all his college chums went on to be big-deal scientists and he's stuck being a "cable designer?"

Ask him how a crystal in the cable contributes to "smooth sound?"
DC



Who 'looked into it'?  And how exactly did you do that?

Lee is a cellist for your smart ass information, and he chose his profession, and enjoys it.  Get your facts straight, Mr. Facts and Figures.



His cables are also not that expensive.  Not at cost.


Nor are some of the cables form Cardas.




And still ... in spite of your attitude ... even Star Quad and Mogami ez-id sound different to casual observers.





j.hall wrote on Mon, 26 July 2004 16:23


i'm not trying to fire you up.....i'm just pointing out hard facts



Fact is that cynical humor is not that funny to me.

This example by Brad was another attempt to win the debate that can't be won or lost.  On some level, it makes his point.  So your "facts" are wrong .. I did not "start" anything.


Humor is a good way to make a point ... reminds me of Fletcher a bit.

I just wish it was clean humor ...

Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on July 27, 2004, 01:50:29 pm




oh sorry ....



HAHAHA!  What a bunch of losers those cables guys are!

what a fraud, whata sham



oh how superior am I!


HAHAAHAAHHA!
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on July 27, 2004, 02:03:51 pm
Lucey, though it may come as a surprise to you, not everything is about confrontation. I thought it was funny, as I've been curious for some time about what's in those boxes.

Let's limit the "this is what he's doing" to stuff you know, not stuff you are simply swinging blindly at.

Now back to your normal programming...
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Level on July 27, 2004, 02:20:28 pm
I guess this begs the question Brad. How are they comparing with your loudspeakers before and after the removal of the zobel? One would think that a zobel being an LCR network...absent the L (which is effectively blocked by the internal crossover in the loudpeakers) would reek havok with the flow in the AC circuit because of inappropriate placement of said zobel.

What do the ears tell you? This is the acid test..as how circuits interact audibly is more meaningful than said therory and conjecture.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on July 27, 2004, 03:04:56 pm
Level wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 13:20


What do the ears tell you? This is the acid test..as how ciruits interact audibly is more meaningful than said therory and conjecture.


Thank You


(the fact is brothers of fact seeking that at the root of every joke lies a seed of truth. there is no innocent humor, it always has meaning on some level, intentional or not, self-aware or not.  And since the moderator didn't see the implied message he was sending, he was unable to diffuse the message with some real content.)


Back to the real content ... how does it SOUND before and after the overpriced parts were removed?
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: j.hall on July 27, 2004, 03:14:50 pm
lucey wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 12:47



Fact is that cynical humor is not that funny to me.




i wasn't being humorous
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: j.hall on July 27, 2004, 03:38:18 pm
lucey wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 14:04


(the fact is brothers of fact seeking that at the root of every joke lies a seed of truth. there is no innocent humor, it always has meaning on some level, intentional or not, self-aware or not.  And since the moderator didn't see the implied message he was sending, he was unable to diffuse the message with some real content.)



can i please tell you about my mother now Mr. Freud

boy this couch is comfy............................
......................................
......................................
.......................................
...................................................
...............................
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on July 27, 2004, 04:27:30 pm
j.hall wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 14:38


can i please tell you about my mother now Mr. Freud



It's Dr. Freud to you


basically this thread started with a moderator being off key

and now another has joined in




please continue to blame me for pointing out all of this, until we can talk music again.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: j.hall on July 27, 2004, 04:32:10 pm
sorry Dr.

let's free base some cocaine and forget about it.

didn't mean to type off key......just aptch in that "AutoType" plug-in and get me back on key.....
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on July 27, 2004, 04:34:32 pm
Lucey, if you wish to discuss the cables, you are welcome to, but to continue to post things insinuating this whole thread is an elaborate attempt to undermine your argument for cable tone is ludicrous and more than a little arrogant...

I state again, I started this thread as I thought it more than a little humorous (if not sad) that people will spend that much dough for a simple $3 circuit that changes the speaker, from the amp's perspective. It has nothing to do with cable 'tone', just an interesting find.

For the last time - let's keep it on subject and off of conjecture.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on July 27, 2004, 04:37:09 pm
Level wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 13:20

What do the ears tell you? This is the acid test..

Not my cables, Bill, I've not heard them in my room, though I'd be stunned if adding an extra circuit into the monitor chain didn't alter the sound (pleasing or not)...

To explain - you're adding a circuit between the amplifier and speaker which is changing the signal. Whether one finds it pleasing (or even audible) or not is irrelevant, it is changing the signal...
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on July 27, 2004, 05:03:51 pm
[some content removed by moderator.]


bblackwood wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 15:34

Lucey, if you wish to discuss the cables, you are welcome to, but to continue to post things insinuating this whole thread is an elaborate attempt to undermine your argument for cable tone is ludicrous and more than a little arrogant...




not elaborate ... subtle

it's hardly 'my argument'  ... it's many people's experience.


heck i wish i was deaf to it, at this pont.

Quote:


I state again, I started this thread as I thought it more than a little humorous (if not sad) that people will spend that much dough for a simple $3 circuit that changes the speaker, from the amp's perspective. It has nothing to do with cable 'tone, just an interesting find.



fair enough, i'll take you at your word then.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Level on July 27, 2004, 05:33:52 pm
Piss and moan.

This is terribly simple:

A. Brad in humour, points out a few dollars worth of parts installed in a seemingly OEM type cable with a fancy plastic cover with what is considered a very very very high profit margin...so that folks can see first hand what they are *paying for*

B. I point out problems with zobels before the crossover, could be detrimental.

C. Some technical info ensues

D. None of us have heard the damn thing but the pictures speak for themselves.

E. I see no problem, no rebuttals or no more issues needed.

F. Pictures do not lie. Someone is making a lot of money...and the merits for single directional cable with an A/C circuit (or lack of) is icing on the cake.

G. It is a good post that opens ones eyes to some of the methods manufactures are using to reel in potential customers and gain superior profit margins.

H. LOL!!!!!!
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on July 27, 2004, 06:37:38 pm
Level wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 16:33


D. None of us have heard the damn thing but the pictures speak for themselves.


huh? a picture has a sound?


Although I agree it's overpriced and silly
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on July 27, 2004, 06:56:19 pm
FWIW, the capacitor is labeled "102J 630M" while the resistor is labeled "RN60D 26R7F", for those that are curious (I know it's difficult to see in the pics)...
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: dcollins on July 27, 2004, 08:20:59 pm
lucey wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 10:47


Who 'looked into it'?  And how exactly did you do that?





Uhh, I looked at his foolish, misleading claims?


Quote:


Lee is a cellist for your smart ass information, and he chose his profession, and enjoys it.  



Sounds like Lee and I have a lot in common, i'm a geetar player that also chose his profession.

Quote:


Get your facts straight, Mr. Facts and Figures.



Apologies if I'm confusing him with some other "cable designer"

And that's Mr. Listens Critically for a Living, to you.

Quote:


His cables are also not that expensive.  Not at cost.



Yes, I'm sure his cost is like a buck per foot.

Quote:


Nor are some of the cables form Cardas.



Cardas has a patent, you know.


DC
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: OTR-jkl on July 27, 2004, 08:38:34 pm
Quote:

i'm a geetar player

Me too. Only around these parts, its called a guit-fiddle...
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: TotalSonic on July 28, 2004, 08:38:34 am
The reason you guys can't hear why the Transparent Audio cable is worth every penny of $800 for it's fairy dust sprinkled epoxy is because you haven't spent $150 for this 4.5' plastic baggie covered throw-the-fire-code-out-the-window power cable to run your amp with:

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/images/powercord_new.jpg

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powercord.php

Ya know - I really respect Pierre Sprey's eccentric ideas for the most part - but he's really lost me on this one!  At least he offers money back guarantees!

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on July 28, 2004, 10:29:05 am
Well, if we're going to go there...

Quote:

Triad cable lifts:

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/images/cable_lift.jpg

"Odd as it may seem, laying audio cables on an artificial fiber carpet will immediately dull the sound of your stereo. And that’s true for all cables, not just our Clearview wires. Unfortunately, the carpet is a huge mass of low quality insulation (dielectric). It absorbs and smears energy from the field around the wire. The effect is pretty grim, making music sound both dulled and harsh. A simple ear-tested solution is to raise the cables off the carpet by at least 8 inches."
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Gold on July 28, 2004, 11:21:29 am
Quote:

"RN60D 26R7F", for those that are curious


That's a Dale/Vishay resistor. For $800 he could at least use a Holco or Caddock.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on July 28, 2004, 11:39:07 am
dcollins wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 19:20



And that's Mr. Listens Critically for a Living, to you.


You are SO Superior!  Let me count the ways .... um ... one?

Quote:


Quote:


His cables are also not that expensive.  Not at cost.



Yes, I'm sure his cost is like a buck per foot.

Quote:


Nor are some of the cables form Cardas.



Cardas has a patent, you know.



A Patent means that the idea was unique, not the results - not necessarily.

A buck a foot is for Belden, as you know.   Cardas 'blue' mic cables are just 15% more than Mogami ... Acoustic Zen analog cables are a bit more, but only worth it from the console to the monitors.

Silver sounds different that Copper, can we agree to this much?

Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Bob Olhsson on July 28, 2004, 06:23:12 pm
Gold wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 10:21

 
For $800 he could at least use a Holco or Caddock.


But then what would he use in the $1200 version?
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: dcollins on July 28, 2004, 08:28:35 pm
Bob Olhsson wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 15:23

Gold wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 10:21

 
For $800 he could at least use a Holco or Caddock.


But then what would he use in the $1200 version?


A vintage Allen-Bradley carbon comp!

DC
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: grock5 on July 29, 2004, 02:11:16 am
bblackwood wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 10:29

Well, if we're going to go there...

Quote:

Triad cable lifts:

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/images/cable_lift.jpg





Great for keeping enemy forces from landing on your beaches!
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: davidc on July 29, 2004, 05:11:10 am
lucey wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 18:47



This example by Brad was another attempt to win the debate that can't be won or lost.  On some level, it makes his point.  So your "facts" are wrong .. I did not "start" anything.


Humor is a good way to make a point ... reminds me of Fletcher a bit.

I just wish it was clean humor ...



Lucey,

You are taking this way TOO Serious. This is just cable, it is not life and death. As you said it is an argument that cannot be won or lost, so why are you arguing. Can't you let people have their fun.

I missed this thread, but reading it now has given me a big chuckle. At least you can't argue with their branding - "Transparent". You open the box and there it's transparent all right Laughing .

I for one happen to be a user and abuser of audiophile cable in my studio. I hear it, others don't - so what. OK there are some like Brad who have a bit of an anti-religous fervor, but they aren't going to be able to change the fact that cables do make a difference for me.

Best Regards

David C

Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Bob Olhsson on August 01, 2004, 02:11:00 am
dcollins wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 19:28

 A vintage Allen-Bradley carbon comp!



NOS, of course!

Did I ever tell you about grinding the vintage Allen-Bradley carbon comp resistors up to spec for our first batch of 8 Motown equalizers? For that matter did I ever tell you about our shop's ultimate dual-motor slotcar?
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: dcollins on August 01, 2004, 03:59:48 am
Bob Olhsson wrote on Sat, 31 July 2004 23:11

dcollins wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 19:28

 A vintage Allen-Bradley carbon comp!



NOS, of course!

Did I ever tell you about grinding the vintage Allen-Bradley carbon comp resistors up to spec for our first batch of 8 Motown equalizers? For that matter did I ever tell you about our shop's ultimate dual-motor slotcar?


No, but I hope you will tell us!  As a yoof, I had a radio control car with a yaw-rate gyro, you could run full throttle all the time...or at least until the other racers run you out of town.

DC
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Level on August 03, 2004, 09:57:27 pm
I am sorry to rehash on this..but in the context of this post..I did come across this very intersting article.

I hope this sheds some light...as it is an earnest attempt to explain loudspeaker cable and testing thereof.

Cheers and enjoy.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/intercon nects/speakercable2p2.php
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: dcollins on August 04, 2004, 02:10:39 am
Level wrote on Tue, 03 August 2004 18:57



 http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/intercon nects/speakercable2p2.php


Proving at the same time that J.C Maxwell was right, and the implementation in the Transparent cable could have been better!  Gotta love that....


DC
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: David Glasser on August 04, 2004, 10:22:18 am
A mildly related question:

Could someone explain the rationalle behind bi-wiring? I just replaced my speaker cables (to make the installation neater, not to tweak anything). Decided to bi-wire, and I'll be damned  - it sounds better; tighter more defined low end. We're not talking audiofool cables - just Canare 4S11 which replaced some mid-line Cardas. What's going on here?
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on August 04, 2004, 11:06:10 am
I've tried it in the past and heard no diff, but who knows. In theory, it should be no different...

Any chance that the diff was simply a better, less-oxidized connection?
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: David Glasser on August 04, 2004, 11:44:28 am
bblackwood wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 09:06

I've tried it in the past and heard no diff, but who knows. In theory, it should be no different...


That's What I alsways thought too...

Quote:

Any chance that the diff was simply a better, less-oxidized connection?


Could be. Anything's possible I suppose.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Innominandum on August 04, 2004, 02:27:53 pm
That was a pretty cool site, I liked the cable reviews. AVCable cables, the cheapest cable reviewed, often beat-out cables many times its price. Especially in the 1 Hz to 20 kHz range. I also enjoyed the fact they were complaining about speaker cable phase performance at 8 MHz.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: davidc on August 07, 2004, 06:59:57 am
bblackwood wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 16:06

 In theory, it should be no different...




Well I would have thought the ground loop between the amp and the speakers could easily make a difference!

Best Regards

David C
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on August 07, 2004, 08:22:33 pm
davidc wrote on Sat, 07 August 2004 05:59

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 16:06

 In theory, it should be no different...


Well I would have thought the ground loop between the amp and the speakers could easily make a difference!

You wanna run that one by me again?
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: OatBran on August 07, 2004, 09:59:15 pm
hmm... I might be off a little here, but isn't putting something inline of the monitoring system that colors the sound be exactly what a mastering engineer DOESN'T want?  Regardless of whether or not it sounds 'better'?
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Bill Yacey on August 08, 2004, 01:40:28 am
A zobel network is meant to flatten out the impedance of the speaker over a wide range of frequencies. Better quality passive crossovers utilize these, but they have to be custom tailored for specific drivers. There isn't an off the shelf solution for all speakers.
Bill
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: mastermind on August 19, 2004, 11:03:44 am
dcollins wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 19:28



A vintage Allen-Bradley carbon comp!

DC


I live/work a few blocks away from Allen-Bradley... I mod all my gear with their components....  

I've been told that at one point the clock on the top of their building (one of the largest buildings in Milwaukee by sq. footage) was the largest four sided clock in the world.

Anyhew...

For the record I have some posh feu-feu cables between the amps and speakers (MIT's)... mostly just because I needed new speaker cables when I decided to bi-amp the Dunlavy's, and I got a good deal on them. They certainly didn't seem to hurt, and who knows, the sound may have improved.. I thought about doing up my own cables, but then I gotta mess around terminating them which is time I could be spending on the motorbike, and these weren't that expensive, plus they look damn cool.

I think when comparing cables one has to first decide if the "difference" is inside their head or outside.....

trev
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on April 12, 2005, 12:23:27 am


I freakin LOVE YOU GUYS!

You are so smart and so funny and, I could never compete on

your level. What makes it even FUNNIER is how knowlegeable most

of you are about electronics, physics, etc.

I always thought there was some kind of RC or LC, T or H thing

in those cables. I was reading about all that about the time

(10 years ago) they started coming out. For the legumes out there

like me Audio Encyclopedia is a great thing to have around when

you need to look up "sharp cutoff pentode".

Without appearing too stupid exactly what are those components

and do they comprise some kind of "passive circuit"?
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: PP on April 12, 2005, 08:13:20 am
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on April 12, 2005, 08:26:35 am
Poyser wrote on Tue, 12 April 2005 07:13

This is a German cable and feels different to every other cable you’ve seen used for the Electric Guitar. It’s quite thick and very very stiff indeed, and certainly does deliver an improved high end.

I'm unaware of anyone who doesn't agree that cables can and do make  a difference wrt very small signals at unusual impedances (gtr cables), but one must be careful to automatically assume that the same holds true at every level and impedance. I contend that at line level (and speaker) that two cables of similar measurements will not sound different, but agree that the smallest, most easily abused signal we deal with (gtr cables) can and do make a difference...
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: PP on April 12, 2005, 09:52:36 am
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: dcollins on April 12, 2005, 07:25:27 pm
Poyser wrote on Tue, 12 April 2005 06:52

Q: “I'm unaware of anyone who doesn't agree that cables can and do make a difference wrt very small signals at unusual impedances (gtr cables).”



This isn't surprising given that the guitar signal is the most fragile in all of recording!  It comes out at a high impedance, technically called "sans cajones", which means the capacitance of the cable is vitally important.  

I don't think there is a direct relationship between the physical stiffness of the cable and the capactiance, however....  Handling noise should be better with the stiff cable, as the dielectric will has less chance to move around and affect the charge.

If you had phantom on the guitar cable, you wouldn't even need a mic!

There was a Les Paul that had a balanced low-Z out, but it was not a hit....

Quote:


In fact, it has to be said, the guitarist’s themselves are often the most unusual element of all in the whole equation….

Ask Dave Collins….



Hello?


DC
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: lucey on April 17, 2005, 03:39:10 pm
bblackwood wrote on Tue, 12 April 2005 07:26

 I contend that at line level (and speaker) that two cables of similar measurements will not sound different, but agree that the smallest, most easily abused signal we deal with (gtr cables) can and do make a difference...



I spent 2 hours yesterday with Requisites newest solid core cable, my beloved Cardas cheapy cable called 2/23.5M, Zaolla silver and the Mogami patchbay cabling.

Anyone can and should do this test for themselves with their DA and AD to see how cables work in your chain.


The test was AC/DC out the DAC1 and right back in the Pacific HDCD with 3' of balanced cable converted to 24/44.1.

Clearly there are audible differences, but subtle ones.  Yet again, it's a matter of how much you care.  I chose to return the new Requisite as it was lean on the low end, a bit mid-forward, and lacking in depth.  The Cardas is a bit distorted but more euphonic in the lows and mids with more air and depth.  The Zaolla is the more neutral of the 4.  The Mogami is average in every category... but not terrible.

It's easy to test this for yourself...

I use the Cardas or the Zaolla as the last cable in the chain, post L2M and b4 the converter ... just depending on what sounds best.





The Requisite solid core exhibited the same response as compared to the Cardas in a mic test that I also did, using my voice, a Korby mic, the 2 cables, a mogami snake, and the HDCD at 24/44.1 again.  This was recorded and played back and again, subtle but real.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: bblackwood on April 17, 2005, 03:43:35 pm
lucey wrote on Sun, 17 April 2005 14:39

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 12 April 2005 07:26

 I contend that at line level (and speaker) that two cables of similar measurements will not sound different, but agree that the smallest, most easily abused signal we deal with (gtr cables) can and do make a difference...

I spent 2 hours yesterday with Requisites newest solid core cable, my beloved Cardas cheapy cable called 2/23.5M, Zaolla silver and the Mogami patchbay cabling.

Since you quoted what I wrote above I have to ask - do you know what the measurements of the cables tested were?

For example, IIRC, the Mogami is fairly high capacitance...
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Arf! Mastering on April 17, 2005, 03:50:58 pm
Brian,

Have you tried blind-testing the files with a DAW or something like  PC ABX?  

Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: dcollins on April 17, 2005, 05:20:50 pm
AlanS wrote on Sun, 17 April 2005 12:50

Brian,
Have you tried blind-testing the files with a DAW or something like  PC ABX?  



I heard someone refer to wire tests as "faith-based" the other day...

DC
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Ronny on April 17, 2005, 05:55:27 pm
dcollins wrote on Sun, 17 April 2005 17:20

AlanS wrote on Sun, 17 April 2005 12:50

Brian,
Have you tried blind-testing the files with a DAW or something like  PC ABX?  



I heard someone refer to wire tests as "faith-based" the other day...

DC





Just wait until everything goes wireless and most of it will one day, people will argue over whether a 900 MHz transmission cuts out more of the air frequencies between 27k and 32k than a 950 MHz transmission.

I can't wait.
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Level on April 17, 2005, 07:37:03 pm
They Have Ronny, its called 2.2ghz...subjectively better for telephones.....

Of course...some, won't be happy unless it is 50ghz.

Rolling Eyes  
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: Ronny on April 18, 2005, 12:31:31 am
Level wrote on Sun, 17 April 2005 19:37

They Have Ronny, its called 2.2ghz...subjectively better for telephones.....

Of course...some, won't be happy unless it is 50ghz.

Rolling Eyes  



They'be had X-treme Wire out for a year or so now, maybe two, that is a digital wireless system for mics, guitars, basses etc. The digital encrypted send is said to be bleed free from other wireless devices that send freqs in that same range, so that if there are venues with several bands playing simutataneous at different ends of an arena and using the same transmission freq's or large hall, outdoor festival with multi stages or any sitation where artists are transmitting on the same bandwidths without being far distance from each other, the send and receive being encrypted digital eliminates the chance of bleed because each transmission will have it's own scrambler and descrambler at the reciever. It also claims absolutely no EMI or RFI issues. I dont't see too far off in the future that digital wireless encrypted will take the place of mic cables, speaker wires, you name it. It's just a mater of time before it gets cheap enough to trickle down to the consumer and cable debates will either become moot or the argument will segue to the transmission mediums. This is the future, no doubt about. One day, maybe not in my old lifetime, but with some of the youngsters on the forum, they will see cables only in special circumstances and running SR or configuring studio cables will be a matter of sending digital encrypted wireless.

You mentioned phones, Bill, the audio industry is always behind ATT or phone technology and we've based 90 percent of whats designed on the pioneers like Nyquist and others that worked at Bell lab for 30 year, but cell phones are about as popular as land lines these day. Wireless technology in any form, is the investment for the future when it will comes to archaic cables, one day.

Now that we are guitar chords and have a few expert ears that can figure out what the tunes that they are covering note for note. I'd like to bring up something that has been plaguing me for years. I've recorded at least 10 bands in the past 20 years where they covered Eric Claptons "Wonderful Tonight", this song is without a doubt one of the most controversial tunes that no one can agree on the exact chord progressoins, mainly the second chord. It starts out "its late in the evening" Evening being the second chord. Half the keyboards play a Bm on the second chord, half of them play a D add F#, most guitars play a stick D chord, some play the Bm. What I hear is not a chord but Eric Clapton picking single notes, he also overdubs a lead riff fill, on another guitar track, but I'm talking about the single note guitar track where he's play arpeggios. So what do you guys hear on that, a Bm or a D major, remember, just like Poyser was saying, it's typically easy for the guitarist to listen to the bass and get the root, but in the case of Wonderful Tonight, the bass is playing an F# on the second measure, which is not the root of either Bm or DaddF#, so what do some of you guitar folks like Poyser who can hear notes more clear than most people hear on this second chord in Wonderful Tonight where EC sings evening; G It's late in the D or Bm when he sings the word "evening". Poyser I'll like to hear your golden ear opinion on it. And andone else that can decypher the exact guitar arpeggion on the second note on guitar when the gass is playing the F#.  

Sorry brad I know it ain't a mastering topic, but I sure would like to hear what other say, is  D major, a D major add 3, or a Bm that is starting the arpeggio with an F#. All inputs from guitarist and keyboardist are quite welcome.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Transparent Audio, meet Dr. Zobel of Bell Labs...
Post by: jackthebear on April 18, 2005, 01:49:20 am
Ronny wrote on Mon, 18 April 2005 14:31



Sorry brad I know it ain't a mastering topic, but I sure would like to hear what other say, is  D major, a D major add 3, or a Bm that is starting the arpeggio with an F#. All inputs from guitarist and keyboardist are quite welcome.

Thanks,


Thank goodness for the Ibis.

Cheers,