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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => j. hall => Topic started by: Bivouac on June 04, 2005, 12:43:03 pm

Title: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Bivouac on June 04, 2005, 12:43:03 pm
...I'm not even sure if I could do it.  

Granted, I'm not a professional recordist by any means (or even much of an amateur), but I just have no clue.  How do you get that super tight, seperated, and compressed drum sound like Lou Giordano, Jerry Finn, and Mark Trombino (well, their recent work anyway...)?

I'm not saying that's a sound I strive for or anything, I just think I should be able to get that sound if I wanted it...

Is it an equipment thing?  Are certain pieces allowing for this sound?  Are the drums themselves higher quality and/or tuned differently than for normal playing applications?

I'm thinking most of my trouble lies in my inability to compress drum sounds (indie or pop really).  I've tried digging up the old "compression" thread, but I can't for the life of me work the search function on this site...

Every time I try and "squash" a drum sounds like they do, it sounds like ass.  So what's the deal here...?

So, is it possible to turn J. Hall's drums from our little competition into the latest Alkaline Trio or Green Day record?  Do you other indie guys have the capability to get those sounds if you wanted to?

Again, I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but I thought it would be interesting anyway...
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Rivers on June 04, 2005, 05:34:56 pm
I think alot of those modern sounds you are describing involve at least some sound replacing/samples.
A lot of that sounds has to do with the setup,mics and knowing that's the sound you are going for in the end.
I don't it's real feasible to turn something like J. tracks into that sound not matter what gear you have...unless it involved soundreplacing and beat detective type stuff.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Fibes on June 04, 2005, 08:40:26 pm
Eliminate the concept of reality from your lexicon.

That's a start.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: brandondrury on June 05, 2005, 10:34:41 pm
I don't get any sounds.  I just stick mics in the air.  If the sound is money, it's because the musician sounded that way.  If the sound is crap, it's because the musician and their respective gear sounded that way.
If the sound is bad, it's time for the musician to do something different.


Brandon
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Bivouac on June 06, 2005, 12:43:41 am
I had to reread my post to make sure it said what I wanted it to say and I'm pretty sure it did...

I'm sorry, but if a drummer plays something, it can sound a million different ways when it finally reaches CD...

Let me just ask this:

If I wanted drums to sound like...the new Jimmy Eat World record, what's involved (I'm mainly asking about compression I think...)?  I know I could probably get a legitimate answer in "Recording 101" or Kenny Gioia's forum, but I think I'd be more interested in opinions from individuals who aren't typically after this sort of sound.

It's pretty much: what seperates a pop-rock sound from an indie-rock sound?
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Fibes on June 06, 2005, 07:51:43 am
Bivouac wrote on Sat, 04 June 2005 12:43

 Do you other indie guys have the capability to get those sounds if you wanted to?



Yes, the moment I abandon reality for hyper-reality. Once you decide to make that leap, nothing is sacred.

Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: j.hall on June 06, 2005, 08:13:58 am
there is no hard rule of how to get those sounds.

the first thing you need to consider is that the guys you listed have been doing this for years.....obviously you reference their more recent work, almost implying their older work isn't what you want.......their older work is representative of their skill set and mind set at that time.

experience can not be replaced or simply absorbed.....you have to live through and learn from it as you go, in real time.....

aside from that.  i'd agree with soundreplacer and beat detective.

i think a lot of them are porbably using the sounds they got from that given kit to replace that kit
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: TheViking on June 06, 2005, 08:44:16 am
j.hall wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 08:13



aside from that.  i'd agree with soundreplacer and beat detective.

i think a lot of them are porbably using the sounds they got from that given kit to replace that kit


Exactly...   the problem with sound replacer is that it sounds the worst when you use incredibly amazing sounding samples with it to cover up a not-so-good-to-begin-with original sound.   I've heard guys say 'oh yeah, i replaced all my drums with samples from the bob clearmountain drum sample collection - don't they sound bad-ass?'   That approach always sounds apparently replaced to me and not very good.   It's unrealistic.   You need to take into consideration the sound of the ambiant mics around the set.

If you sample the actual drum you are using for the take and then use that to replace the original, it jives a lot better with what else is going on in your overhead and room mics and overall just makes it easier for people to buy it that it's not really replaced.   It's an illusion of sorts.   The advantage this give the engineer is that the replaced drum tracks (usually kick, snare and tom tracks) are completely isolated from other sources - no hi hat or cymbal bleed.   You can add reverb galore and crush the snot out of them with compression - next thing you know you have that super slick, overproduced and polished drum track I think you're looking for.

The key is still to get killer sounds from a killer source.   If the drum sounds bad to begin with and you sample it and then replace the original with that sound, it's still going to sound bad.

There are probably a bunch of other ways you could go about this concept so I'm not saying this is the best way.   I just know I've approached it this way a lot in some of my past work.   Good luck, Bivouac!

The Viking
www.vikingrecording.com

Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: weihfool on June 06, 2005, 10:18:26 am
TheViking wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 08:44


The key is still to get killer sounds from a killer source.   If the drum sounds bad to begin with and you sample it and then replace the original with that sound, it's still going to sound bad.



I had this demonstrated without a shadow of a doubt over the weekend (not the sampling part, but the source quality part).  

A drummer I've never worked with before brought in a set of Yamaha Recording Customs.  It seemed that no matter where I placed the mic they still sounded GREAT, just different.  A pure joy to work with.  If the drums sound great in the room to begin with, you're already 50% of the way there.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: takeout on June 06, 2005, 10:33:18 am
Close mic everything.  Cymbals too (3:1 rule applies).

Gate everything.  Whether on the way in or during mixdown is a matter of taste.

Compress everything.

"Exploding reverb".
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Bivouac on June 06, 2005, 11:45:29 am
j.hall wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 06:13

their older work is representative of their skill set and mind set at that time.


First of all, I'm completely aware that these guys are probably in some of the highest demand in the business and their experience gets them work.  I just think that there had to be a philosophy change of sorts along the way...

It sounds like a lot of you guys think sound replacement is the reason...

Consider:

Trombino: Jimmy Eat World's "Static Prevails" to "Clarity" to "Bleed American".  Obviously he learned A Lot between "Static" and "Clarity", but "Bleed American" sounds COMPLETELY different.  All just sound replacement?

Giordano: Samiam's "Clumsy" to the Ataris' "So Long Astoria"

Finn: I guess I really can't think of a good example here.  He's always had that compressed, super powerful sound.  Smoking Popes, Jawbreaker, and Green Day to Alkaline Trio, Blink666, whatever...

Again, I'm not saying this is something I strive for when recording.  I just think I should be able to pull off some something close if necessary.  What would you guys do if you were asked to make the drums sound like that?  Is sound replacer the only answer?
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: j.hall on June 06, 2005, 12:16:09 pm
i don't think sound replacer existed when trombino did clarity.

i think that's recording a good solid hitting drummer in a great sounding room using a lot of compression
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Fibes on June 06, 2005, 12:38:47 pm
j.hall wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 12:16

i don't think sound replacer existed when trombino did clarity.

i think that's recording a good solid hitting drummer in a great sounding room using a lot of compression



J. Not the brand name but it was done plenty in the the eighties and maybe even before then.

Can you say Forat?

Can you say triggers?

One of my first rock gigs was printing kik and snr samples by triggering off the 2" tracking the samples to a locked adat and flying them back to the 2" onto other tracks after offsetting the adat. Yep a royal PITA.

The Forat was a cool piece too, for the time. I think Forats are still getting used on hit records, especially in the UK.


Getting good clean samples (of the kit) that are time aligned can allow you to kick the shit out of them without worrying about bleed, noise or inconsistent velocity; ya' know the stuff reality is made up of.


Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: j.hall on June 06, 2005, 02:51:55 pm
yeah, i spaced on the trigger thing.....

i just don't think trombino used triggers on clarity, maybe he successfully fooled me, but it just sounds super organic, and with a ton of room in the drum sounds.....but hey, it won't be the first time i've been fooled, and it won't be the last.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: lord on June 06, 2005, 04:17:25 pm
Fibes wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 12:38

Can you say Forat?
Can you say triggers?

One of my first rock gigs was printing kik and snr samples by triggering off the 2" tracking the samples to a locked adat and flying them back to the 2" onto other tracks after offsetting the adat. Yep a royal PITA.

The Forat was a cool piece too, for the time. I think Forats are still getting used on hit records, especially in the UK.



Yea. Forat is some cool old school shit.

That sounds like a nasty job, Fibes. You could also take the drum hits off the sync head, and use a delay before going into the trigger unit. You could then tweak the delay time to line the hits up right. If you didn't have a million DDLs lying around, then you had to bounce the samples back to tape anyway...

At least the stuff getting replaced kind of sounds like drums these days, and not an embarrassing Alesis sample.

Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: pg666 on June 06, 2005, 05:36:49 pm
i think 'takeout' is pretty dead on, but i'll add 'lots of subtractive EQ' to that equation.

i think if you can't take that sound seriously in the first place, it's gonna be impossible to get those results. i'll drop by my friends' studio occasionally, and they go for that ryan greene/fat wreck chords drum sound most of the time, and hearing those things solo'd makes me laugh every time (and it doesn't sound too much better in context for that matter). i can't imagine actually trying to get a sound like that myself; it's like saying to yourself one day "i think i'm gonna go for that 'Pyromania' sound! yeah!"

Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Bivouac on June 06, 2005, 08:50:56 pm
pg666 wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 15:36

i think 'takeout' is pretty dead on, but i'll add 'lots of subtractive EQ' to that equation.

i think if you can't take that sound seriously in the first place, it's gonna be impossible to get those results. i'll drop by my friends' studio occasionally, and they go for that ryan greene/fat wreck chords drum sound most of the time, and hearing those things solo'd makes me laugh every time (and it doesn't sound too much better in context for that matter). i can't imagine actually trying to get a sound like that myself; it's like saying to yourself one day "i think i'm gonna go for that 'Pyromania' sound! yeah!"




I bet that sounded really funny, but I also think that sound is COMPLETELY necessary for a lot of music that came out on that label during the mid to late 90's.  The clicky kick drum just MADE all of those No Use, Lagwagon, Good Riddance, and NOFX records...

All of that stuff meant a lot to me back then, so I guess it just has some sentimental value...
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Fibes on June 06, 2005, 10:34:50 pm
Quote:

Yea. Forat is some cool old school shit.

That sounds like a nasty job, Fibes. You could also take the drum hits off the sync head, and use a delay before going into the trigger unit. You could then tweak the delay time to line the hits up right. If you didn't have a million DDLs lying around, then you had to bounce the samples back to tape anyway...


Yes it was...

It was easier to do it my fucked up way since the samples had to be retouched via punches from time to time since sometimes the triggering would drift from itself.

At least i was using real samples instead of the ones in the DM whatever.

I always wondered how he got those sounds, much like the original post, I learned by sitting backstage at the magician school.

I also vaguely remember riding an output on a compressor to get velocities right. Ah those were the days before laziness uh, i mean the natural aesthetic took hold of me.

apptrigga really works for me now given the way you can trigger at several more velocities than SR and use different samples for each tier. I wish i had some samples of just the snares for when i need a little more of them and no actual drum, the whole white noise thing is so 1981.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: spankenstein on June 06, 2005, 10:44:14 pm
Bivouac wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 19:50


I bet that sounded really funny, but I also think that sound is COMPLETELY necessary for a lot of music that came out on that label during the mid to late 90's.  The clicky kick drum just MADE all of those No Use, Lagwagon, Good Riddance, and NOFX records...

All of that stuff meant a lot to me back then, so I guess it just has some sentimental value...



I couldn't imagine that stuff sounding any different. Seeing any of those bands live never sounded too far off either.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: takeout on June 08, 2005, 09:00:10 am
Bivouac wrote on Tue, 07 June 2005 01:50

I bet that sounded really funny, but I also think that sound is COMPLETELY necessary for a lot of music that came out on that label during the mid to late 90's.  The clicky kick drum just MADE all of those No Use, Lagwagon, Good Riddance, and NOFX records...

All of that stuff meant a lot to me back then, so I guess it just has some sentimental value...


The kick has to sound like that on those records.  Those bands are all about the guitar sounds.  Everything else is a distant second.

Unless they had a piccolo snare; for some reason that gets turned up as loud as the guitars.

I will henceforth go on record: any drummer caught in possession of a piccolo snare should be shot on sight.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: j.hall on June 08, 2005, 10:30:47 am
takeout wrote on Wed, 08 June 2005 08:00


I will henceforth go on record: any drummer caught in possession of a piccolo snare should be shot on sight.


i second the motion!!!
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: Fibes on June 08, 2005, 11:58:01 am
j.hall wrote on Wed, 08 June 2005 10:30

takeout wrote on Wed, 08 June 2005 08:00


I will henceforth go on record: any drummer caught in possession of a piccolo snare should be shot on sight.


i second the motion!!!


Our drummer showed up at our cd release show with one and asked if i could help tune it up. I put down the guitar, picked the snare off the stand, walked across the room, dropped the piccolo into a trash can picked up the old snare and began tuning it.

Piccolos are second in hell to those little 10x5 jobbers that are so popular with the kids.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: takeout on June 08, 2005, 02:29:40 pm
Well played, sir.  Well played.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: NelsonL on June 08, 2005, 03:11:13 pm
Why pick on the trash can? It sounds pretty good compared to the piccolo.
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: wwittman on June 09, 2005, 01:13:16 am
takeout wrote on Wed, 08 June 2005 09:00

I will henceforth go on record: any drummer caught in possession of a piccolo snare should be shot on sight.


I don't believe in penalties for possession.

but actual USE is another story...
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: forgetmeknots on June 10, 2005, 10:28:45 pm
Okay, i'm gonna put myself up on the stake here with this one....but why the hate for the piccolo??  My guess is the lack of depth to the sound, the ringy high end, but if you use a Remo Falam head on all your snares (like real drummers do: like i said I'm on the stake, so fire at will) you should be able to achieve some sort of decency, no??  Don't goldfinger use a piccolo??
Title: Re: Let's say I wanted a generic sounding, modern pop drum sound...
Post by: j.hall on June 13, 2005, 09:45:57 am
why don't you just buy a marching snare drum from premier and be done with it.

at least that way you'll have a drum that can take the high torque of a falam head without ripping all the lugs off when keep wrenching down on that kevlar head.