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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => R/E/P Saloon => Topic started by: 3D Audio on November 07, 2004, 09:44:28 pm

Title: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: 3D Audio on November 07, 2004, 09:44:28 pm
I just read an article in the latest Smithsonian about the election of 1800 and the parallels between then and now are uncanny. I'll see if I can find it online.

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: 3D Audio on November 07, 2004, 09:57:58 pm
Here's a quote from the beginning of the article.

Jefferson was not alone in believing that the election of 1800 was crucial. On the other side, Federalist Alexander Hamilton, who had been George Washington?s secretary of treasury, believed that it was a contest to save the new nation from "the fangs of Jefferson." Hamilton agreed with a Federalist newspaper essay that argued defeat meant "happiness, constitution and laws [faced] endless and irretrievable ruin." Federalists and Republicans appeared to agree on one thing only: that the victor in 1800 would set America's course for generations to come, perhaps forever.

Only a quarter of a century after the signing of the Declaration of Independence, the first election of the new 19th century was carried out in an era of intensely emotional partisanship among a people deeply divided over the scope of the government's authority. But it was the French Revolution that had imposed a truly hyperbolic quality upon the partisan strife. That revolution, which had begun in 1789 and did not run its course until 1815, deeply divided Americans. Conservatives, horrified by its violence and social leveling, applauded Great Britain's efforts to stop it. The most conservative Americans, largely Federalists, appeared bent on an alliance with London that would restore the ties between America and Britain that had been severed in 1776. Jeffersonian Republicans, on the other hand, insisted that these radical conservatives wanted to turn back the clock to reinstitute much of the British colonial template. (Today's Republican Party traces its origins not to Jefferson and his allies but to the party formed in 1854-1855, which carried Lincoln to the presidency in 1860.)  Afew weeks before Adams' inauguration in 1796, France, engaged in an all-consuming struggle with England for world domination,had decreed that it would not permit America to trade with Great Britain. The French Navy soon swept American ships from the seas, idling port-city workers and plunging the economy toward depression. When Adams sought to negotiate a settlement, Paris spurned his envoys.


The full story is at   http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues04/nov04/ election_1800.html and is a worthy historical perspective.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: punkest on November 08, 2004, 10:31:40 am

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


[...]
Hitler also said it best: "It is good fortune that people do not think."
[...]
Barry




Add to that a people who seem to be giving up on reading. (Newspapers, at least)

George





So we're supposed to have a more collaborative spirit, and be less resentful, and keep in mind that approximately half the country disagrees with us.

In addition, we need to keep all these things in mind, and be all cooperative and everything while we also keep in mind that most of you feel that Bush was elected by "a people" that:

1. are stupid non-intellectuals
2. are un-read
3. are neo-nazi candidates
4. are sheep willing to be led by a neo-nazi
5. all the above
6. all that and worse.

If anybody has resentment, it sounds like you guys are full of it because Kerry lost. Why is it then so hard for you to understand our resentment for all the negative generalized comments here about anyone who does not adhere to your ideas and opinions? I understand the concept of lively disagreement, and think that is one of the greatest things about America. But most of these posts seem like intolerance, and that smacks of other countries in years past.

It seems like I'm hearing quite clearly that there is no way that a person can be a good person, a caring parent, a thinking individual and be a conservative (or more specifically, vote for Bush).



Paul Mills




I think the people that voted for Bush are very, very afraid. Afraid of alien attacks, terrorism, AND change. Afraid that some of the hatred that foreign policy has been sewing could be harvested while being in low guard.  Also not very informed -if you call that un-read- that this crook does all this for himself and his base, as he calls it, meaning his friends at the elite. Unfortunately, all this does not only affect your country, but also the rest of the world. I, as an outsider, am amazed that he won after all he just did.

  Even so, young voters broke records and that is good news.

  You as North-Americans have now a responsibility, and you have to keep close to this government and continue to express the way you feel, by no means now that this megalomaniac is in power again, let it alone to do as he pleases.

May god be with us all...

Hans Mues
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: 3D Audio on November 08, 2004, 10:48:46 am
Quote:

I think the people that voted for bush are very, very afraid. Afraid of alien attacks, terrorism, AND change. Afraid that some of the hatred that foreign policy has been sewing could be harvested while being in low guard...

Hans Mues


I'm not afraid. I have peace in the midst of the world's turmoil.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Johnny B on November 08, 2004, 11:09:46 am
Lynn, you may not say that when Bush sews the seeds of the next big crime wave by making people so broke that they feel compelled to take drastic action, and Bush will accomplish this state of affairs thru a series of measures such as cutting back on social programs and increasing his offical policy of exporting as many American jobs overseas as possible.

When I think of Jefferson, I think of someone who had some semblance of patriotism, when I think of Bush, I see nothing but an immoral man, an unethical traitor whose failed policies will only continue to harm the entire world and all of the American middle class.  


YMMV.


 
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: JamSync on November 08, 2004, 11:39:59 am
3D Audio wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 15:48

Quote:

I think the people that voted for bush are very, very afraid. Afraid of alien attacks, terrorism, AND change. Afraid that some of the hatred that foreign policy has been sewing could be harvested while being in low guard...

Hans Mues


I'm not afraid. I have peace in the midst of the world's turmoil.



I agree.

"Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come."

Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar"



Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Nika Aldrich on November 08, 2004, 11:41:00 am
In Poly Sci classes we studied the election of 1800.  It was pretty brutal.  There were others as well - The Lincoln/Douglas debates showed how nasty the election of 1860 was, and there were others in the late 1800s that were pretty bad.

Nika.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: JamSync on November 08, 2004, 12:26:54 pm
Nika Aldrich wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 16:41

In Poly Sci classes we studied the election of 1800.  It was pretty brutal.  There were others as well - The Lincoln/Douglas debates showed how nasty the election of 1860 was, and there were others in the late 1800s that were pretty bad.

Nika.



And the format for the Lincoln/Douglas debates still exists today as a method of teaching young people how to conduct logical discourse in public speaking. Unfortunately, only a small segment of school-age kids participate in the program.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Rader Ranch on November 08, 2004, 12:44:28 pm
the youth vote wasn't what some seem to think, in terms of overall percentage of the population....IOW it's been higher in the past.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Nika Aldrich on November 08, 2004, 01:00:45 pm
It was the same this year as in 2000 - 17%.  So it was up overall, but not by more than the rest of the population was up overall.

Nika.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Fletcher on November 08, 2004, 01:25:54 pm
3D Audio wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 10:48

Quote:

I think the people that voted for bush are very, very afraid. Afraid of alien attacks, terrorism, AND change. Afraid that some of the hatred that foreign policy has been sewing could be harvested while being in low guard...

Hans Mues


I'm not afraid. I have peace in the midst of the world's turmoil.



index.php/fa/363/0/
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: PookyNMR on November 08, 2004, 02:08:49 pm
Fletcher wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 11:25

index.php/fa/363/0/


Despite popular belief, Canada is VERY different from the US - even the more 'liberal' states.

Nathan
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: plughead on November 08, 2004, 02:37:36 pm
Fletcher wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 10:25

3D Audio wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 10:48

Quote:

I think the people that voted for bush are very, very afraid. Afraid of alien attacks, terrorism, AND change. Afraid that some of the hatred that foreign policy has been sewing could be harvested while being in low guard...

Hans Mues


I'm not afraid. I have peace in the midst of the world's turmoil.



index.php/fa/363/0/


We (as Canadians) are going to see some long term suffering from not only the "chimp" in the Whitehouse, but also from our haphazard, and poorly planned agreements within "free-trade". I don't trust GWB's interests, they don't reflect mine, (or IMO, my country at all) nor do I think he represents the general public's agenda either. He is all for money, at whatever cost, and it'll surely take till another catastrophy to then realize the hole we've dug ourselves into. History repeats itself - it seems the US is willing to stand behind GWB - I at least find it humourous that our nation's leader (at the time, Chretien) wouldn't stand behind him, cos I don't think he, or the Canadian public trusted GWB in the least...

PS: Speaking for myself, I take offence to being lumped in with "America" - we are not a US state, and hopefully never will be...

Peace (and I mean peace...)
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Brent Handy on November 08, 2004, 02:38:36 pm
It blows me away that the same people that claim to be enlightened have not bothered to read the first and only text book used in the very first schools here in the US.

I am a republican, I did vote for Bush, but only because of the stance on abortion.  Kerry talks out of his crack.  He says that he has morals, is a Catholic, believes that birth starts at conception, but murder is ok?

If any of you doubt that abortion is "a mother's choice" and not murder, I will be happy to get you into see one in person the next time that you are out in CA.  My brother is a doctor.  We treat animals with better care.  Also, ask yourself why that stupid bastard in CA is being charged for dumping his wife and unborn child into the lake?  Is it only a child and murder if someone else does it?

I am not a freako republican that is afraid of things.  That statement was most uneducated.  That talk is what makes the democrats look like morons, which they all are not.  I am for all of the government that was originally intended...protection from foriegn aggression, promotion of longevity/well being.  Let the people take care of the hurting, not the government.  Look at 911.  We all stepped up and helped regardless of government.  Look at Oklahoma City.  The nation stepped up.  This country is one of opportunity, not guarranteed handouts.   The government has too much control, and too many hands in our pockets, doing too much.  That's what makes me vote republican until wa adopt a three or four party system.

Respectfully
Brent
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Rader Ranch on November 08, 2004, 03:41:36 pm
...that came across pretty freako to me. this was not an abortion thread. better start another one in a better forum for that, unless this is to become the defacto political forum, like Craig Anderton's was before a seperate place was created over at the MP forums...
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: MedicineDog on November 08, 2004, 04:09:39 pm
Brent wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 11:38

...believes that birth starts at conception, but murder is ok?


Oh, you mean like Bush and the death penalty in Texas?

"Respectfully,"
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Gideon on November 08, 2004, 05:21:29 pm
JamSync wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 11:39

3D Audio wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 15:48

Quote:

I think the people that voted for bush are very, very afraid. Afraid of alien attacks, terrorism, AND change. Afraid that some of the hatred that foreign policy has been sewing could be harvested while being in low guard...

Hans Mues


I'm not afraid. I have peace in the midst of the world's turmoil.



I agree.

"Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come."

Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar"







"All men pay attention to me."  Yes, and I pay attention to my little plate and wash it and wipe it out...Again, do I not pay attention to my donkey? Do I not wash his feet? Do I not curry him? ...
"But I will cut off your head." Well said! I had forgotten that I ought to pay attention to you, as to fever or cholera, and set up an alter to you, just as in Rome there is an alter to the God Fever...
For when the tyrant says to a man, "I will chain your leg," the man who has set a high value on his leg replies, "Nay, have mercy upon me," while the man who has set a high value on his moral purpose replies, "If it seems more profitable to you to do so, chain it."
"Do you not care?"
"No I do not."
"I will show you that I am master."
"How can you be my master when Zeus has set me free. Or do you really think that he was likely to let his own son be made a slave? You are, however, master of my dead body, take it."

 Epictetus on Tyranny (from the Discourses translated by W.A. Oldfather, Loeb Classic Library)




No fear here either (and I live in Manhattan).



http://massgraves.info/
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Fletcher on November 08, 2004, 06:43:46 pm
Brent wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 14:38

If any of you doubt that abortion is "a mother's choice" and not murder, I will be happy to get you into see one in person the next time that you are out in CA.  


Well now that this crap is down in the Saloon where it belongs I'll comment.

First let me mention two things; first, that I'm a registered republican; second, the only reason I oppose 'term limits' is because of the congressman from my district.  His name is Barney Frank, and for the few that are unfamiliar with Barney, he is openly gay, he is also, IMNTLBFHO, the best fucking Congressman in the whole damn House of Representatives.

One of my favorite Barney Frank quotes [and there are many favorite quotes!!] is: "Obviously, life begins at conception and ends at birth".

I have seen abortions, I have watched them, held a hand and offered moral support.  We're going to have to purely agree to disagree on this subject.  

Being a father of two wonderful daughters I could not imagine bringing a child into this world without the complete love and support that is necessary to raise a child.  I would be a whole lot more convinced by the "abortion is murder" thing if the people espousing that doctrine took those soon to be unwanted and neglected children into their lives and cared for them... but this is not the case.

Just as I don't care if a man has sex with another man, nor do I care if a woman has sex with another woman [though I'd wish they'd invite me to watch but that's another story], I'm just tired of seeing kids with no guidance or love in their lives being cast aside by society.

This is my belief, this is not debatable.  I respect your right to your opinion, please respect my right to mine.  If you feel it's "murder" then you feel it's "murder"... if you happen to feel that "gay marriage" is also wrong, I happen to feel that it's none of my damn business what anyone does as long as it doesn't adversely affect my life, my family's life, or a friend's life... unfortunately, as the "right to life" movement has tried to affect some friend's lives, the "anti-gay marriage" thing has also affected some friend's lives.

What can I say... I'm from Massachusetts and in the music buisiness.  I know loose women and gay guys... go figure.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: i dig music on November 08, 2004, 09:29:37 pm
Fletcher,

Let's pretend that you have two sons instead of daughters. Let's also say they are ages 1 and 3.

There you are mowing the front lawn one day when a moving van pulls up to the house next door to yours, and after that, a white Audi TT convertible.

Two men with matching scarves and matching shades get out and introduce themselves to you,

"Hi I'm Lance and this is my boyfriend Steve."

You say "hello and welcome to the hood".

Later you go inside and your wife asks, "who are they". You respond,

" oh our new gay neighbors lance and Steve. and I happen to feel that it's none of my damn business what anyone does as long as it doesn't adversely affect my life, my family's life, or a friend's life...


A few years go by and same sex marriage is now legal and lance and Steve announce to you that they are getting hitched. you think "still none of my biz" and wish them good luck.

A few weeks later, they pull up in a decked out ford wind-star minivan.You thought they were on their honeymoon when really they went to get their adopted 4 year old boy they renamed "little lance" just about the same age as your boys. It raises an eyeball or two in the hood but,

"it's none of my damn business what anyone does as long as it doesn't adversely affect my life, my family's life, or a friend's life...


Well, eventually Lance and Steve ask if they can arrange a play-date with your boys as well as others in the hood. Then they want to do sleep overs and away trips. it seems Lance and Steve just love having all the boys around.

Fletcher, what will you say then?
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: PRobb on November 08, 2004, 10:23:06 pm
Same as I would say to a straight couple. If they are nice people and good parents, no problem.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: PRobb on November 08, 2004, 10:55:09 pm
What if Steve and Lance were model parents? What if they were Steve and Jane? And they drank, and fought and cheated on each other. Would they be better neighbors because they were straight? What matters is who they are not what they are.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 12:02:19 am
C'mon Fletcher, of course it's debatable....lol

Notice to Fetus...

While I was out being a model citizen and trying to scatch that itch I got knocked up by this guy I met and well now you're here.....I mean fukk, I really can't believe this happened again.  You are already developing with your little arms and legs the doctor said.  But if I let you get any bigger it will get to a point where most people agree that snuffing you would be too close to backing over a two year old with a Buick....

So I am very sorry, I mean really sorry and regretful, yeah, regretful about tomorrow at three o'clock.  Yeah little one you see I just don't have time for you.  And you won't be loved.  It's just that well you will be inconvenient and under the circumstances you will be fukken miserable and probably listen to Death Metal and not do very well in school and wind up a member of the REP forum so.....I'm going in to the Doctors office....and well....I'm gonna have you snuffed.....no hard feelings.....and you'll be happy to know that with the time I will have on my hands I can continue my political activism here in the Northeast.....try not to wince when you see the vacuum nozzle you hideous non-human thing.....in my womb....it's all legal! I'm not doing anything wrong and I don't want to talk about it!  It's my right!  You have no say in the matter so bite down you little mother fukker...IT'S NOT MURDER!!!!!            

I mean mind you this is pure conjecture, I am sure most of the abortions are because of incest and rape.....

And as far as citing literature as examples of courage....we're only talking hypothetical right?   I mean we don't have to do anything do we?


love ya's

TIK


Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 09, 2004, 12:50:43 am
i dig music wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 21:29



Well, eventually Lance and Steve ask if they can arrange a play-date with your boys as well as others in the hood. Then they want to do sleep overs and away trips. it seems Lance and Steve just love having all the boys around.

Fletcher, what will you say then?


I'm not Fletcher but I'll say this ... You're an evil friggin bigot and I hope you rot in a hell that drives you insane.  You're also a coward, homophobic and un American.

Freedom is hard asshole .. you will have to TEACH your kids tolerance and acceptance.  And teach then that gay humans have existed since the dawn of time.  Get over it.


As for their parenting and influence on your community:  A gay couple is not going to make your or my boys gay, nor are they going to molest them.  They are going to set a frigggin example for love and parenting!  Why? Because EVERYONE is watching them and to adopt they had to jump through hoops your lazy ass would never succeed to do.

Look at spousal abuse, and child abuse, and divorce!  Straight people are messed up PLENTY!  Like TAKE A NUMBER!  

Want to fix marriage? ... get the world's men neutered or make divorce illegal.



Your ignorance and fear is ruining this country.  Damn!




As for the church ... START PAYING TAXES!  Larry Flint was right 30 years ago when he wrote of this in Hustler.  A visionary ... he knew men wanted to look at pussy long before the internets figgured it out.

And if you so-called Christians "respect life" then stop killing prisoners in Texas (like 153 of them ... especially when the Pope calls) and stop killing Iraqi civilians by the 10s of thousands.  

Jesus H Christ, save us from your zealous followers.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: PRobb on November 09, 2004, 12:58:17 am
lucey wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 00:50

i dig music wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 21:29



Well, eventually Lance and Steve ask if they can arrange a play-date with your boys as well as others in the hood. Then they want to do sleep overs and away trips. it seems Lance and Steve just love having all the boys around.

Fletcher, what will you say then?


I'm not Fletcher but I'll say this ... You're an evil friggin bigot and I hope you rot in a hell that drives you insane.  You're also a coward, homophobic and un American.

Freedom is hard asshole .. you will have to TEACH your kids tolerance and acceptance.  And teach then that gay humans have existed since the dawn of time.  Get over it.


As for their parenting and influence on your community:  A gay couple is not going to make your or my boys gay, nor are they going to molest them.  They are going to set a frigggin example for love and parenting!  Why? Because EVERYONE is watching them and to adopt they had to jump through hoops your lazy ass would never succeed to do.

Look at spousal abuse, and child abuse, and divorce!  Straight people are messed up PLENTY!  Like TAKE A NUMBER!  

Want to fix marriage? ... get the world's men neutered or make divorce illegal.



Your ignorance and fear is ruining this country.  Damn!




As for the church ... START PAYING TAXES!  Larry Flint was right 30 years ago when he wrote of this in Hustler.  A visionary ... he knew men want to look at pussy long before the internets figgured it out.

And if you so-called Christians "respect life" then stop killing prisoners in Texas (like 153 of them, especially when the Pope calls) and Iraqi civilians by the 10s of thousands.  Jesus H Christ.



Tell it like it is, Brian!
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 07:21:25 am
I hope you rot in hell?

LMAO

Feel the love....

Don't hate IDIGMUSIC because he can't put it all together man...he is not after all perfect like you and I...

"Freedom is hard asshole"  or speaking of homosexuality you could also say freedom makes me hard for assholes....

Anyway that is probably bigotry and we shouldn't even connect the dots between the members of any given parade and what happens when...boom boom out go the lights!!!!

What the hell are all the translators doing in Iraq....what does Sean Penn think?  I'm so confused, I wish I had Lance's courage to face the truth...

OK just reacting to the frothing condemnation of my fellow REP members...

Affectionately, your perfect friend in the land of Oden.....Odin?

TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Fletcher on November 09, 2004, 08:14:52 am
Wow... that was a drag... wrote a really cool piece on a couple of topics only to discover that I wasn't logged in and lost it... uhhh, the computer ate my homework.

Lemme try and run off where the other [much better written] post kinda went.

Lance and Steve don't bother me in the slightest.  A sexual predator is a sexual predator no matter if it's some Gay guy down the street, some nice suburban "married with children/Johnny Corporate, Audi driving mook", or a priest.  

From what I've seen on the news, there is far more danger of predatory activity by the clergy than from an openly Gay couple... but ya know what, I'm open to giving everyone the benefit of the doubt until they give me reason to think otherwise [not necessarily respect, but at very least the benefit of the doubt].

In my life, I've had more contact with guys like Lance and Steve so they don't scare me anywhere near as much as say a priest.  My kids have had way more contact with Gay people than religious people, but that's just the way it goes when your dad works in the music business in the Northeast.  For that matter, my kids have seen more junkies than religious people and you can believe that I sure as hell ain't gonna advocate that they get fucked up on drugs... but yeah, they've seen it.

The whole abortion thing... whew, that's been debated by so many people for so long that we're just not going to settle anything here.  All I can say is that I firmly support a woman's right to choose what happens to her life and her body.  I don't think abortion is right, I would never encourage it, I have had friends who've gone through it and have regretted the decision for the rest of their life... but who's to say that their life, or the kid's life would have been "better" had they gone through with the pregnancy.

Obviously, the best position is not be put in that postion, which is what I try to teach my daughters... but ya know what, the final decision, should it happen to arise, will be their decision.  I sincerely hope upon hope that the situation never arises in my family.  I sincerely hope upon hope that if it should arise in my family that my kid's feel the sense of love and support to come and try to work it out with me rather than hiding it from their parents.

All I can try to do is teach them how to be safe [and break their balls to do their homework... and other "responsibility" kind of shit]... but it's not my life, it's theirs.  Should they turn out to be Gay, pregnant, or dopers, they're gonna get all the love and support I can possibly put together... what happens outside of my immediate family, in my opinion, is none of my fucking business.

To that matter, obviously some disagree, which is certainly their right.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 08:57:51 am
Well said, couldn't agree more....

Personal responsiblility, acceptance, freedom and concern.....

And all done with humor and no bullshit....

what a concept....

I think we can agree to disagree, I really don't think if we were all in one room we would be so eager to call each other assholes....on the other hand....(grin)

That whole choice of leaving a three year old with a priest or an open bugerer.....man....of course they are both capable of being noble....but I'll go with a elderly woman every time.....maybe I'm just fukked up.....

I live in a world where just about everyone I meet, I mean in the flesh, cites Michael Moore and then is willing to agree that well maybe 50 percent of what he says is true....most of these Euro types don't grow up under the stigma of being "saved" or living under a system where the spiritual leader saw "a sign" or talked to salamanders....

Most of them don't face the fear of having their asses kicked like ....ever....it's pretty cool yet they have their view of the  world and what I find suprising is how readily the are willing to meet me halfway on this whole George Bush thing....you really can't see it in their press however, or well....on this forum much either....



Your perfect idiot buddy in the hills of supremacy, Odenwald....

TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: i dig music on November 09, 2004, 10:41:22 am
There is more to this then meets the eye.

Even though I agree that what people do behind close doors is their own business and no one else's, it has nothing to do with marriage and everything to do with redefining the family unit and family laws for a group that has a different sexual preference then the vast majority.











Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: zmix on November 09, 2004, 11:05:37 am
Abortion rates increased dramatically under Bush:



http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/2 851283


Please do not confuse the spin with reality.

John Kerry does not support abortion. His own religion forbids it.

Kerry understands that the United States was founded by those who believe in freedom. This includes freedom of religion. Because each of us may choose our own religion, we must be tolerant of others who choose to believe as they do.

He supports choice.

Do please bear in mind that just because something is legal, doesn't mean that it's OK.

Alcohol is a legal substance throughout the US, many religions forbid the consumption of it.
45,000 pedestrians are struck dead by drunk drivers each year.
Laura Bush killed her boyfriend while driving drunk.

We need strong communities to help make the tough moral choices, not the government.



http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/2 851283

" When President Bush took office, the nation's abortion rates were at a 24-year low, after a 17.4 percent decline during the 1990s. This was a steady decrease averaging 1.7 percent per year. (The data come from Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life using the Guttmacher Institute's studies.)

Enter George W. Bush in 2001. One would expect the abortion rate to continue its consistent course downward, if not plunge. Instead, the opposite happened."
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: maarvold on November 09, 2004, 11:12:46 am
My personal bottom line(s) for Democrats & Liberals:

1. "You will catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar".  If your agenda is anything more constructive than venting, you will be more persuasive to many if you abandon your doctrine of hate.  

2. Get over it: your candidate didn't "meet his burden".  Based on a lot of what I've read and heard, it is assumed that anyone who didn't vote for Kerry is in love with GWB.  Totally not true.  There were times (a few) where Kerry appeared 'presidential', but he never convinced me that he had a rudder; he was all over the place.  This was a problem I could not get past.  And--about 2 days before the election--I really wanted to.  But it's about hearts AND minds and he didn't meet his burden.  

3. While we're at it, doesn't 380 tons of EXTREMELY highly explosive material qualify as a "weapon of mass destruction?"  Or am I being too unreasonable?  
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 09, 2004, 11:37:09 am
maarvold wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 11:12


3. While we're at it, doesn't 380 tons of EXTREMELY highly explosive material qualify as a "weapon of mass destruction?"  Or am I being too unreasonable?  


You're being unreasonable .. looking for anything to justify the man ... and while you're at it don't misinterpret passion for hate.

Flies and honey is a cowards credo .. i know lots of people who say that .. and in every case it's  popularity motivation, not a truth motivation.

Care about truth and the furure of the world we leave our kids more than your own ass ?... step right up and be a free American.  Land of the free and home of the brave .. not land of the manipulated, the zealots, the bigots, and home of the ass kissers and bullies.



Now if there WERE 380 tons (which there were) then Bush LOST THEM and has LIED about it ever since. Period.

Even if they were there and guarded by the military (which they were), that does not equal the spin of fear he made about WMDs.  Those are not WMDs ... just Ws.

maarvold wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 11:12


2. Get over it: your candidate didn't "meet his burden".  Based on a lot of what I've read and heard, it is assumed that anyone who didn't vote for Kerry is in love with GWB.  Totally not true.  There were times (a few) where Kerry appeared 'presidential', but he never convinced me that he had a rudder; he was all over the place.  This was a problem I could not get past.  


Yea, having a brain is tough.  Life is so simple after all, it just confuses things to make it seem all complicated with anything less than a soundbyte.

The supposed rudder problem was manufactured and if you missed that the burden is on you.


Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 11:48:21 am
What I like about the direction of this thread now is the focus on the issues and not the "venting"....

In reality it is up to us as Americans to grab the stick....with the bitterness of the left and the disappointment of the center, maybe we could actually be involved enough to get some decent candidates next time.....like someone who can speak english or is not an airbag.....three fukken purple hearts....and windsurfing at his age.....hmmm maybe that's realistic.....but um not likely, then you listen to him run his yap.....yikes....

The point made about the right vs. legal....very good...man it's almost approaching the level of the other forums now....

C'mon gang we can do better than Hillary vs. god only knows what ding dong the Republicans will put up there........

Fukk man, why not a fukken real mother fukker....270+ million and we can't get someone with their shit together....

lemme nough bros...

TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: 3D Audio on November 09, 2004, 12:20:52 pm
Gideon wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 22:21

JamSync wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 11:39

3D Audio wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 15:48

Quote:

I think the people that voted for bush are very, very afraid. Afraid of alien attacks, terrorism, AND change. Afraid that some of the hatred that foreign policy has been sewing could be harvested while being in low guard...

Hans Mues


I'm not afraid. I have peace in the midst of the world's turmoil.



I agree.

"Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come."

Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar"







"You are, however, master of my dead body, take it."

 Epictetus on Tyranny (from the Discourses translated by W.A. Oldfather, Loeb Classic Library)



What a great quote. I'll remember that one.

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 09, 2004, 01:00:52 pm
i dig music wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 10:41

There is more to this then meets the eye.


One might say the same for your anti-gay family argument.

Quote:


Even though I agree that what people do behind close doors is their own business and no one else's, it has nothing to do with marriage and everything to do with redefining the family unit and family laws for a group that has a different sexual preference then the vast majority.


Define marriage?  Is it any old man and woman in front of God and State?

OR is it a loving basis to raise adults to be contributors to the world?

You think gays are inept at this?  Bases on what evidence?  We have no evidence as we have too few examples.

I know the evidence for straight people is not so good.  ANd it's PLENTIFUL.

Kids on drugs, and most of them prescribed by the parents shrink.  Abuse, abuse, and more abuse.  Divorce in the 50% range causing children more pain then needs to be explained here.  Need I go on?

Traditional families are not all they are cracked up to be.  Christian values are the main cause in many cases, with repression and reactions to same as the cause.

What the hell makes you think that two rug munchers and their kid are going to hurt YOU and YOUR family?  Maybe they will teach you something?




If you are able to learn, that is ...
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 01:25:53 pm
They could at a minimum brush up our technique....pun intended....
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: i dig music on November 09, 2004, 02:26:31 pm
Brian,

I really don't appreciate your hi strung verb-age,

so,

let's just agree to respectively disagree.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Gideon on November 09, 2004, 02:56:38 pm
3D Audio wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 12:20

Gideon wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 22:21

JamSync wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 11:39

3D Audio wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 15:48

Quote:

I think the people that voted for bush are very, very afraid. Afraid of alien attacks, terrorism, AND change. Afraid that some of the hatred that foreign policy has been sewing could be harvested while being in low guard...

Hans Mues


I'm not afraid. I have peace in the midst of the world's turmoil.



I agree.

"Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come."

Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar"







"You are, however, master of my dead body, take it."

 Epictetus on Tyranny (from the Discourses translated by W.A. Oldfather, Loeb Classic Library)



What a great quote. I'll remember that one.





And not just empty words; before he became a great Stoic philosopher, Epictetus had been a slave.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: MedicineDog on November 09, 2004, 02:57:48 pm
i dig music wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 11:26


I really don't appreciate your hi strung verb-age,

so,

let's just agree to respectively disagree.


Ah, yes...  When the going gets tough, the "tough" cop-out.

Jeez, you post the most flamboyant message in this mess and your reaction to an opposing view is to take your ball and go home?  Nice.

The conclusions that I draw from your retort is that a) You have no reasonable, thoughtful argument in favor of your position and b) You probably didn't understand the "hi strung verb-age" in the first place.

What I will add to this is that your belief tells me that you are one scary, intolerant individual.  You do your ilk well, sir.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 09, 2004, 04:20:21 pm
i dig music wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 14:26

Brian,

I really don't appreciate your hi strung verb-age,

so,

let's just agree to respectively disagree.


I agree that you espouse fear and bigotry.

And I respectfully disagree to do so, or to doubt the benefits of gay/lesbian parenting on a society that needs lessons on tolerance more than just about anything else right now.


God Bless You,


(that's God the Divine, the Creator with no name and no religious affiliation.

God the all knowing and benevolent ... the Great Intelligence behind all lesser intelligence.  The Source and Destination, the Endless as the All Ending.

God the Universal Light ... bless you and bring Wisdom and Truth to your attachment with small minded fear and control issues in our wounded and changing times.)

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Brian Middleton on November 09, 2004, 04:23:29 pm
Quote:

Well, eventually Lance and Steve ask if they can arrange a play-date with your boys as well as others in the hood. Then they want to do sleep overs and away trips. it seems Lance and Steve just love having all the boys around.



This may be news to you, but gay parents are probably just as concerned about their kids being targeted by sexual predators as you are. Why wouldn't they be? If this idea is foreign to you, it's probably because you think of gay people in one-dimensionally sexual terms. Wake up and smell the banality: Gay people have lives, too, and they're not all about sex. They're about going to work, paying bills, keeping the house clean, hanging out with friends, being involved in the community, and--sometimes--keeping Junior fed and clothed and helping him with his homework. They are not about molesting Junior, except in a few pathological cases...just like with straight people.

I know several gay couples with kids, and they LOVE their children. That's "love," as in "care about, take pride and joy in, give guidance & protection to"...also occasionally as in "get driven totally screaming crazy by"...but not as in "want to do the nasty with." Can you get your mind around that?
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 04:54:06 pm
Wow

Uhh

Uhhh

Mind Opening...

uhh

uhhh

whew

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 05:00:25 pm
Hey Brian,

That's not the god who calls people asshole as well is it bro....

lol

that's lol with you I hope, not at you....

bastard....


joking


love ya

TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Barry Threw on November 10, 2004, 08:18:15 pm
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
-H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: barefoot on November 11, 2004, 01:57:52 am
Brent wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 11:38


I am a republican, I did vote for Bush, but only because of the stance on abortion.  Kerry talks out of his crack.  He says that he has morals, is a Catholic, believes that birth starts at conception, but murder is ok?

Brent, I hear yah, but you know this abortion thing is small potatoes!  Did you know that every fertility clinic in the country is murdering thousands of babies a year!!!?  In vitro fertilization, it's genocide man!  Maybe we should form a protest group?  Then we can picket outside those evil clinics and expose them for the death camps they are.   And when we see  the legions hypocritical church going couples walking into the clinics, we can yell "baby killers!"  
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 11, 2004, 08:50:35 am
barefoot wrote on Thu, 11 November 2004 00:57

Brent wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 11:38


I am a republican, I did vote for Bush, but only because of the stance on abortion.  Kerry talks out of his crack.  He says that he has morals, is a Catholic, believes that birth starts at conception, but murder is ok?

Brent, I hear yah, but you know this abortion thing is small potatoes!  Did you know that every fertility clinic in the country is murdering thousands of babies a year!!!?  In vitro fertilization, it's genocide man!  Maybe we should form a protest group?  Then we can picket outside those evil clinics and expose them for the death camps they are.   And when we see  the legions hypocritical church going couples walking into the clinics, we can yell "baby killers!"  


You're exactly correct.  Which is why the Vatican is opposed to both proceedures.  While you may think you validated abortion by equating it with IVF, you actually have shown both to be what they are.  At least IVF is an attempt to create life and give couples children who cannot otherwise have them.  Personally, I'd prefer to see them adopt, but I must admit, I've not walked in their shoes.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 11, 2004, 10:39:20 am
Brent wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 14:38

It blows me away that the same people that claim to be enlightened have not bothered to read the first and only text book used in the very first schools here in the US.

I am a republican, I did vote for Bush, but only because of the stance on abortion.  Kerry talks out of his crack.  He says that he has morals, is a Catholic, believes that birth starts at conception, but murder is ok?

If any of you doubt that abortion is "a mother's choice" and not murder, I will be happy to get you into see one in person the next time that you are out in CA.  My brother is a doctor.  We treat animals with better care.  Also, ask yourself why that stupid bastard in CA is being charged for dumping his wife and unborn child into the lake?  Is it only a child and murder if someone else does it?

I am not a freako republican that is afraid of things.  That statement was most uneducated.  That talk is what makes the democrats look like morons, which they all are not.  I am for all of the government that was originally intended...protection from foriegn aggression, promotion of longevity/well being.  


I've read that book, and I disagree with your interpretation.

As far as murder ... Bush killed over 150 death row inmates in Texas, the most by a Governor ever in American history i believe.

And the War in Iraq is killing Innocent people all the time.

So how do you justify that to yourself?




I'll help you out ... ALL of Gods creation is a miracle, the birds, the bees, the Terrorists, the dead murderers and the babies:  sexually abused as kids, emotionally abused by drunk fathers, Munchhausen by Proxy mothers and starving kids in Africa and in Ohio.

All of Gods creation is a miracle and YET there is death.  There are all kinds of deaths that God brings on his own creation.   Hurricanes, Tornadoes, starvation, traffic accidents.  Any death man chooses is also Gods choice as he created everything and he forsaw the possibilities.  Divination is all knowing and ALL ACCEPTING.

Then there are the deaths of the trees to make money for Republicans.  The deforestation of 1/4 of the forests.  And the death of the flowers defined by MAN as weeds in Suburban gardens, and the death of Cows for a steak dinner and the death of lettuce and corn for my table.

So it seems that not only does God allow death, he insists on it.  And as we are created in Gods image we are put in the challenging position of having to choose as God chooses with each tornado ... which prisoners of horrible crimes die, and which ones live at our tax expense ... while we also choose which children live and which ones die.

So what does this mean?  That man is evil because he chooses death in some instances?

My interpretation of the Bible says that man is challenged by God to be moral, he is not asked to be a dogmatic zombie.

So when I kill to eat I say thanks.

And when a Government kills a prisoner it does so at great lengths and it never laughs at the levity of it.

And when I accompany a woman to an abortion clinic, knowing she will have a lifetime of hardship if she goes, or keeps the baby, or gives it away ... I know that this is one of the decisions that is MOST like Gods decision to bring the tornado, or the famine, or the flood. Suffering brings us closer to God, and big moral decisions do too.  This is Gods will, that we shold learn through challenges and suffering.

Making a decision about life and death is as close to God as we humans get, and as we are made in his image, it's certainly our place to do so.  Although you're right, it would be easier to not have to think about it and just choose easy things like black or grey socks, public or private school for junior.

Catholics and many Christians do not have the character to make this decision, or the understanding of God to see it as properly theirs to make and learn from.  At least Bush can make it in Texas with one human after another on death row, but he won't let women make it with their own eggs and fertilized eggs.  Hypocrisy.

God wants us to take on the big things, and to respect life at ALL levels.  You want to de-prioritize much of the life and elevate the sperm and egg beyond the rest of Nature.

This is human arrogance and moral cowardice ... not moral superiority.


Only if the decision for death is not respected and taken with the greatest care by the individual responsible is there an immoral act in play in the eyes of God.





One might argue that the choice to invade secular Iraq and remove it's dictator and invoke 10s of thousands of innocent deaths was not necessary in the war against Islamofascists.

Gov. Bush laughing at the plea for her life from that psycho woman in Texas is one of those immoral moments for SURE.


Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: maarvold on November 11, 2004, 10:59:06 am
This is to Brian Lucey:

Brian--in your response to me (on page 2) you accuse me of something that is completely untrue.  You just didn't pay attention to what I spent more time than you might imagine writing.  You are too reactive... too much 3k... partially blind to the needs and desires of others (why do I think I'm not the first one to tell you this?).      There are more kinds of passion than your 'hair on fire' kind.  
BTW, in "The Passion Of The Christ"  ("Oh, here we go," thinks Brian to himself), the Roman soldiers that were ripping the skin from Christ's back, bit by bit, with their metal-tipped cat-o-nine-tails whips also didn't seem hateful, but were definitely passionate.  Your kind of people?  
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: barefoot on November 11, 2004, 11:07:25 am
David Schober wrote on Thu, 11 November 2004 05:50


You're exactly correct.  Which is why the Vatican is opposed to both proceedures.  While you may think you validated abortion by equating it with IVF, you actually have shown both to be what they are.  At least IVF is an attempt to create life and give couples children who cannot otherwise have them.  Personally, I'd prefer to see them adopt, but I must admit, I've not walked in their shoes.

Hey, I’m perfectly happy to point out the parallels between common fertility methods and abortion.  And I hope everyone becomes aware of it.   Some might choose to oppose these practices, as they do abortion.   However, I think many more will realize that it’s easy to try and impose your ideological values on others, when it concerns something that you think you would never be involved with; but it’s a lot more difficult when you can relate to the issue, realizing the world isn’t so black and white.  

Of course, there will also always be a fair number of hypocrites who are quick to condemn other’s behavior while rationalizing their own.  

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 11, 2004, 11:10:11 am
If something is REALLY just to me ... PM is the way to go.

As far as your page 2 entry ...


maarvold wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 11:12

My personal bottom line(s) for Democrats & Liberals:

1. "You will catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar".  If your agenda is anything more constructive than venting, you will be more persuasive to many if you abandon your doctrine of hate.  

2. Get over it: your candidate didn't "meet his burden".  Based on a lot of what I've read and heard, it is assumed that anyone who didn't vote for Kerry is in love with GWB.  Totally not true.  There were times (a few) where Kerry appeared 'presidential', but he never convinced me that he had a rudder; he was all over the place.  This was a problem I could not get past.  And--about 2 days before the election--I really wanted to.  But it's about hearts AND minds and he didn't meet his burden.  

3. While we're at it, doesn't 380 tons of EXTREMELY highly explosive material qualify as a "weapon of mass destruction?"  Or am I being too unreasonable?  



Your points seem clear.   How did I "disrespect" ?

1 I'm not "venting".  Anyway Flies and Honey is manipulative and a cowards credo, based on insecurity or commercial interest.  Standing up for what we see and being open to intelligent criticism without any interest in personal image is the honrorable way. Even Bush gets the last part of that.

2 Kerry was Bushwacked by a smear campaign with 40 years of steam that takes out even Republicans who jump ship.  His appearance of waffling was simply the application of intelligence to complex issues.

3 In fact, 380 Tons of CONVENTIONAL explosives is not WMD by the standard definition.  Nor was this the thread Bush evoked.  Anyway, Bush had them then lost them, so he's incompetent, again.


What's your other point?
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: maarvold on November 11, 2004, 12:28:11 pm
Brian,

Regarding Private Messaging, you really are, at least somewhat, clueless.  You didn't really fully comprehend what I wrote, but responded to it anyway.  

You accused me of: "looking for anything to justify the man"; yet 4 inches above your accusation, I say that (paraphrasing) I had very serious misgivings about voting for GWB and was looking to Kerry as a better alternative, but ultimately could not get past Kerry's lack of a clear, consistent course of action.  

Next, you--some of it by implication--call me:
unreasonable
a coward
a popularity seeker (btw, the election is absolutely a popularity contest... duh)

Then there is subtle insinuation that 'me and my kind' want to insure that America is "[the] land of the manipulated, the zealots, the bigots, and home of the ass kissers and bullies".  It seems, as long as their behavior doesn't get out of hand, that all of the above are constitutionally-protected groups.  I think the point of the USA is that you can belong to any (or all) of the above groups or not: the choice is yours.  

I could go on, but why bother?  

Why would I want to Private Message you when you launched your half-baked scud missiles at me in a public forum?  Don't think that your actions won't have consequences.  

On the positive side, there was less 3k in your most recent post.  I also find it noteworthy, but a bit eyebrow-raising that this was your response.  If somebody leveled accusations at me in a forum that I felt were false, I wouldn't calm down... I'd go after them.  But maybe the accusations are true... and maybe, like many of us, you're just trying to figure out what better place we can go to from here.  I know I am.  
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 11, 2004, 01:18:53 pm
maarvold wrote on Thu, 11 November 2004 12:28


Why would I want to Private Message you when you launched your half-baked scud missiles at me in a public forum?  Don't think that your actions won't have consequences.


Wow ... I never attacked you personally. Can we criticize a persons ideas and not get so personal about it?  

I guess not.  But that's what Liberals can do .. is that so bad?



Here's the thing to all the Bush voters out there.  There are a few reasons to vote FOR Bush

#1 You believe his hype machine about making America safer
#2 You want his Christian values enforced nationally
#3 You fear change
#4 You make over $180,000/yr and you want your money


So stop telling us Kerry failed to do anything to win you over or the Liberals are arrogant.  Talk about sore winners.

Bush and Co. have had the reigns for 4 years and act like they have been shackled by Democrats?   Repressed victims of "liberalism"?    Get over it.  The New Right is not the American Negro circa 1965.


The policies of GWB are the main issue of any criticism, and his personality is linked to those policy decisions, as is the brainpower and understanding of what America IS within the electorate.

Why did this happen you ask?  Why did most metropolitan areas go for Kerry by a smidge, and most rural areas go for Bush by a landslide?

On the one hand Kerry could have done better. Any loser "could do better". But would it be enough when we had a strong smear machine for the incumbent in war times (a move to centralize power by Bush and Co.) and an ignorant electorate (Ignorant as to essence of tolerance and American Values, the proper place of Religion in a healthy Democracy, the larger History of violence and Imperialism in Iraq, and the Nature of these Terrorists).


In the final count, Soccer moms (or Security Moms as they are being called now) and the Religious Right (plus citizens and corporations looking to save money) voting against Gays in State initiatives turned this election.



The irony is that people voted AGAINST their beliefs on this marriage issue, as they were Bushwacked by misinformation.  Only 27% of the people believe in something 64% of them voted for!  



And speaking of 'final count' it's no shock that Diebold, a Bush supporter and maker of Voting Machines, who was "unable" to get a paper reciept out of their machines ... has some major descrepencies here in Ohio.  In Gahanna (pronounced: Ga Han Na) there were around 650 votes cast and around 4000 for Bush.

Every day Billions of dollars changes hands at retail stores and reciepts are exchanged, and a voting machine cannot get a paper trail?    Now I'm not saying Diebold and the Republicans in their company are stupid, but it's either incompetence or unEthical and unAmerican and unPatriotic.  Your call.

I guess the theory today on the right is that if the person is inept and we share their "values" ... everything is forgivable.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 12, 2004, 10:18:42 am
lucey wrote on Thu, 11 November 2004 12:18


And speaking of 'final count' it's no shock that Diebold, a Bush supporter and maker of Voting Machines, who was "unable" to get a paper reciept out of their machines ... has some major descrepencies here in Ohio.  In Gahanna (pronounced: Ga Han Na) there were around 650 votes cast and around 4000 for Bush.



Old news-and no news.  That was a misreported event where some provisional ballots that were supposed to be allocated statewide got put one county.  Besides, and don't you think that if there were any validity to this that you'd at least hear Al Gore and Terry McAuliffee screaming, much less the Kerry camp?
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 12, 2004, 02:04:40 pm
David Schober wrote on Fri, 12 November 2004 10:18


Old news-and no news.  That was a misreported event where some provisional ballots that were supposed to be allocated statewide got put one county.  Besides, and don't you think that if there were any validity to this that you'd at least hear Al Gore and Terry McAuliffee screaming, much less the Kerry camp?


Democrats have more tact than to scream nationally about a moot point in this election.  Locally however, there have been remedies made after an investigation ... and in fact there WAS a mistake with the initial counts.  

Do you have something new in the last 2 days with this story?


    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap /

http://www.snponline.com/NEWS11-10/11-10_ghvote%2011-10.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6418513/

Google - Ohio Ballots Gahanna




Either way on this one incident, I'm certian that nothing has changed with the fact that the Republican Congress stopped the paper trail from happening in the first place, claiming it was technically too dificult, too expensive or unnecessay because of their high standards of professionalism.

Do you want to argue that point as well?

Do you have proof that in the year or two after Election 2000 this was not discusses and not atempted in Congress by justice loving liberals? So you have proof that it was not blocked from getting to a vote by Hastert and Delay?

Do I need to get national personalities or perhaps God to call your house and tell you how it went down in DC?

Do Republicans or Democrats, with control of all 3 houses of our government, EVER abuse their power in your wildest imagination?


From the Philly Inquirer "Rep. Rush Holt (D., N.J.) has sponsored a bill to mandate voter-verified paper trails. It has 150 co-sponsors, but Holt concedes it won't move this year because it lacks the support of the Republican leadership."
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Wyn Davis on November 12, 2004, 02:32:13 pm
Brian,

I admire your determination. Your energy and passion for your position is uncommon. You DO realize though, you will never get anyone to admit they were duped or Bushwacked into voting for the wrong person, right? That simply does not happen in public discussion. In a close and honest relationship with a friend or family member, where there is total trust, respect and intellectual honesty, SOMETIMES a person will admit they are wrong. But here, on an issue like this, there will not be one single person who voted for Bush who will ever admit they made the wrong decision. I mean seriously, if those folks were not convinced by what happened during the first four years, what makes you think they will EVER be influenced by anything you say? I am not faulting you, I am not telling you to go away. I do, however, find myself frustrated for you. As I watch these threads develop, I do not see the slightest inkling of a position change by you or your opponents. As far as I'm concerned you are fighting the good fight, but I fear you will find yourself in the same position as Sisyphus.

I think a large segment of Bush supporters are now or shortly will be experiencing cognitive dissonance. In the most classic sense, when the expectations of those who supported him and the reality of who he is as a leader does not jive, cognitive dissonance begins. That dissonance causes his supporters to redefine their expectations to match reality. This is why it is pointless to attempt to show how Bush's words and actions did and do not add up. Successful compensation for cognitive dissonance does not allow the sufferer to acknowledge the disconnect. Remember, only about one quarter of voting age Americans chose Bush as their president. If you break that 25 percent down into sub groups, I don't think it is hard to imagine some significant number of those people are literally cognitively dissonant.

Don't let anything I say stop you, just don't let it get you down. Remember to keep your arguments rational and to look after your own spirit.

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 12, 2004, 07:42:56 pm
Hey Brian,

Wyn is absolutely right, it's all about subgroups bro....

In fact cognitive dissonance could even be considered grunge voting....but with even more distortion....

Let's say you divided the Bush camp down the middle....

And everyone on the left side has to yell "AH"

And everyone on the right has to yell "ZIE"

AH

ZIE


AH


ZIE


And then Zack comes out and starts playing "Over the Mountain"

That would be one fukken great Republican Rally!

Right Bro?


Let's Start a Fukken Riot!!!!



Love yas


TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 13, 2004, 11:52:44 am
Hi Brian,

I found it funny that in the stories you linked, if you bothered to read them, you'd see that the errors were corrected.  Furthermore, the errors had no change in the outcome because of the margin of victory.  It seems you just did a quick search and found headlines, and not bothering to read the substance of the story.

No one that I'm aware of has ever claimed that the election process is now, or has ever been foolproof.  2000 was an issue because of the small margin.  This election thankfully didn't suffer the same fate.  Again, if what you say is true, where's the NYT, CBS, CNN etc making the claims you are?  Note the significant difference in what the articles you listed say, vs. what you're saying.  It's not a matter of a perfect election.  As in all of history, the question is, does the margin of victory significant enough to not call for recounts.  The Kerry camp said this was exactly the case in OH, and therefore showed class in a quick concession.

You said the "Republican Congress stopped the paper trail from happening in the first place"  Care to back up that one?  If you're making the charge, then show the goods.  

I have no idea what that next bit of yours meant.  Sounds like you're again making a charge, but requiring me to prove it false.  If you have point, please make it.  Otherwise it sounds like a nonsensical rhetorical statement.

As for the 3 houses of govt being in control by one party....are you putting forward the idea that there should be a Constitutional amdenment forbidding such a thing?  If the citizens vote that way, who are you to tell them it can't or shouldn't happen?  After all, maybe you've forgotten, but until 1994 the Democrats had majority of both houses.  The fifty-plus years before that they had complete control of both houses and during most of that time there were Democrat presidents.  In your way of thinking, am I to presume should that have not been allowed?
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: analog Tom on November 13, 2004, 09:27:22 pm
Quote
"The fifty-plus years before that they had complete control of both houses and during most of that time there were Democrat presidents."  

Ah, yes, more Republican math:  

Eisenhower: 8 years;  
Nixon/Ford: 8 years;  
Reagan:     8 years;  
Bush #1:    4 years.  

Total:     28 years.  It certainly looks like Republican math to make 28 less than "most of that" fifty years.  

Of course, a different way to look at it would be to consider the Republican mantra of fiscal responsibility:  

Nixon/Ford:  Rising deficits;  
Reagan:      Skyrocketing deficits;  
Bush #1:     Rising deficits;  
Bush #2:     Skyrocketing deficits.  

Cordially,  
Tom
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 14, 2004, 08:54:11 am
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the math lesson.  Maybe a little history would do well for you.  The modern Democrat model was....FDR.  I guess you forgot about him.

So let's add again...

FDR 1933-1945
Truman 1945-1953
JFK 1961-1963
Johnson 1963-1969
Carter 1977-1981
Clinton 1993-2001

That brings us to 40 years that the Democrats held all powers of govt.

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 14, 2004, 10:24:32 am
1994-50= 1944

You did say 50 plus years however, so we could include the bronze age technically because it is 50 plus years ago....

Not that I agree with these godless communists sympathizers....

Love Yas

TIK

Incidentally, the fact that the argument is now focused on arithmetic makes it much more thought provoking.  I find it stimulating and intellectually vibrant and intoxicating.  I count myself lucky to be here to take part.  Some feel existence of all matter is circular, others contend that the omnipresence is closer to a lumpy sack shape however this thread has now returned to the intellectual level of it's premise....

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: analog Tom on November 14, 2004, 11:36:17 am
Thank you for pointing out another feature of Republican argument strategies.  

You set the 50 year model, presumably because you wanted to focus on the Republican presidents' record.  Then, as soon as someone points out the FACTS in the time period YOU set, you simply shift the time period, shift the issue focus, and evade dealing with the FACTS you originally put into focus.  

Sort of like creating a war based on intentionally fabricated claims about WMDs, and then completely shifting the excuse, and denying the original reason, when the truth came out.  All the while, standing by the policy of shovelling billions of tax dollars to businesses in no-bid contracts, for services they don't provide.  

FACTs are completely irrelevant, so long as the money pipeline stays open, right?  

Cordially,
Tom
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 14, 2004, 12:03:17 pm
David,

You are being defensive ant not reading my posts.

Yes the flaws were fixed.  Yes Ohio was not in play after Nov 2.

Yet The Republican congress blocked the paper trail.  If I have time to care further about your denial of irresponsibiity in the Government, I'll find you some things, but this is commmon knowledge.



And about 3 houses all I mean is that we should have extra dillegence when the checks and balances intended by the founders CANNOT be relied upon.

If it were a Supreme Court, President and Congress of Democrats I'd be voting for a Republican.  


The problem with looking at Bush in a historical context is that he is a (R) in name only.  As Clinton was a (D) in name only.   These monikers are blurring the realities behind walls of conflict.

New Con zealotry is at work here, and any real Conservative will tell you that.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 14, 2004, 12:59:05 pm
Analog Tom,

You have some really good points on this issue....

I would now like the pleasure of helping you get past them (grin)

Firstly, I really respect the anti-war guys, I just don't understand them...

Ding Dong Bush did not create the war...

I wanna keep it short so as not to insult or lecture you...

I don't have any idea what your take is because of the limitations of this medium...but it is clear that Bush has some real problems.  In your posts on this or other threads, at least I think it was you, it doesn't matter though 'cause all you liberals are the same....(joking) Um, you seem to make  very lucid arguments against the administration, fair enough, this however does not erase the fact that we have been dealing very fairly with the pan-arab types for the last hundred years and they have benefitted tremendously.  Due to the limitations of our system and their current religious induced fog things are a bit complicated.

I guess what my current opinion aided by many really good posts from the anti-bush crowd is...

OK

Um

Here goes...

The anti-Bush crowd are the owners of a very simplistic argument.  I believe the actual problems are people like you and people like me.  It is not a question of intellect but a question of action.   I am sure I don't know the whole story but from what I have read Sean Penn may be one example of ultra-citizenship worthy of note. He took out a full page add to denounce what he thought was wrong and then flew to Iraq twice to make a difference.

To make Bush the target is absurd.  He was elected by America.  He is somewhat limited as a statesman.  It is quite possible ding dongs like he and Clinton get elected because the general public can't be bothered.  

Our boys were stuck in fukken Kuwait since the Gulf War, and had to do the heavy lifting while pretty much ignored by activist types.  After 9-11 it was a matter of contention whether or not the fukkbags in Bagdad were plotting against us, Bush acted....I guess shooting at our pilots enforcing a UN mandate isn't good enough for most ding dongs in NYC or LA...

So we could still be there in Kuwait hoping that our intelligence was wrong...

I believe blaming Bush is the easy way out...because you and I are innocent and so are those poor Arab gentlemen who just want to gas some Kurds....

Like Republicans who repeat their mantra and wave their gay flags the left ignores the complexity of the situation and throws reason and accountability out the window by blaming Bush for doing the right thing on foreign policy

Please lemme havit between the eyes bro, as I am interested in improving my conception of this whole tragedy....

This forum is really the best exchange of ideas I have seen....I have right wing friends that send me posts off of forums where everyone sits around and tells each other how great they are because they all agree... and I have many more left-wing friends (I live in Europe and cavort with musciians) who well....they mostly mumble and shit themselves.....a lot...but I'm lucky that anyone talks to me at all...



with respect and love


TIK

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 14, 2004, 01:21:44 pm
Hey Tom,

You have to get over this Haliburton thing....

They do their job well...

really well, especially with troop support.

The defense contracting thing is less than perfect.  Repeating propaganda is like bouncing a ball against the garage....it really has a limited effect...

If they fukked up they will have to answer for it, what is the problem.....Kenneth Lay is a perfect example or don't you think 175 years in the slam is justice and the American way....

Man dude you are getting it both barrels now....(goofy grin on my face)


Candidates bro....maybe we can finally get enough people interested so we don't have to keep voting against someone we can't stand to even look at.....



Kiss kiss


TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 14, 2004, 02:57:35 pm
Hi Brian,

Thanks for your response.  I didn't mean to come off as defensive. I've been hearing such hysteria around here it hit me in that manner.

I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about in regard to the paper trail.  If you wish to elaborate I'll be waiting to hear about it.  The only thing I think you mean is regarding electronic voting machines.  Which of course have no paper trail.  However, there were plenty of Democrats that pushed for those after the 2000 election.  Is this what you're referring to?

As for the three houses being controlled by one party, I do understand and agree.  These things must be watched.  I'm still confident in the way the Constitution was written and that if needed, the people will "turn the bastards out" if they deserve it.  At best a run of one party can only go two years unfettered.

My only point was that this went on for most of the back half of the 20th century.  You sound more intellectually honest than most, but some appear, now that their party isn't in power, they seek to change the rules.  
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 14, 2004, 03:14:05 pm
Okay Tom and TIK....

Please forgive me.  I did say "fifty+" thinking that would cover FDR and you'd get it.  My mistake.

I never imagined the phrase "fifty+ years" would end up being the issue your argument hangs upon.

Now that you've pointed out and corrected my generality, making it more specific, you actually helped make my point.  It's not just over the last fifty or so years that the Dems have had control of all three branches most of the time...it's over the last 71 years!

Are those facts you consider irrelevant?  Argue this point if you wish, but I'm afraid you can't get around historical facts.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 14, 2004, 03:44:19 pm
I forgive you David...

You need to stay away from the Sour Mash there in TN....

Your friend (not 1938 type) in Germany...

TIK

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 14, 2004, 05:30:40 pm
Ja mien freud,

(did I spell that right?)  You may have noticed my last name....Austrian heritage here...

Actually, I'm more of a single malt scotch man.  Tho at this time I'm sipping a bit if B&B.  After all, the French do have their finer points.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 14, 2004, 06:47:40 pm
I think I met her....
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 16, 2004, 07:32:16 pm
David Schober wrote on Sun, 14 November 2004 15:14

 It's not just over the last fifty or so years that the Dems have had control of all three branches most of the time...it's over the last 71 years!


And the DOW goes up more when Democrats are President too ... so what's your point?

Are you saying that the Democrats have had the Presidency, the Congress AND the Supreme Court for 71 years????

Are you saying the last 71 years have sucked?  Liberal women fought to get the vote.   Liberal blacks fought to get equal rights (at least in law, sorta).  Democrats like Clinton/Gore and a Republican Congress balanced the budget.

Liberals have just been ruining America, eh?




I'm saying that beyond any doubtm the Neo Cons have all three branches of Government for 4, now 8 years?  And how is that going?



Skipping opinions we can look at some polling.  How is the approval rating for Bush? Lowest in his 4 years?

What about the "Country in the Right Direction?" number? Under 40% at last count.

How about "Do you approve of Iraq" ? Under 50% and falling.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 16, 2004, 08:22:16 pm
Brian,

you need to pay better attention to the threads.  You've totally missed the point that I made and raised a bunch of red herring thinking you're proving something.  ( I hope you like seafood)

It's time my friend for you and the lefites to get a life, move on, etc.  

The election is over.  You're like the Japanese soldiers still fighting the war after the peace treaty was signed.  

In the words of Don Henley, "Get over it!"
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Gideon on November 17, 2004, 12:23:15 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onada
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 17, 2004, 04:18:43 pm
David Schober wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 20:22


The election is over.  You're like the Japanese soldiers still fighting the war after the peace treaty was signed.  



So instead of clarifying a vague point you go and get all glib about the election.  Way to go.

The government is still running Mr. Schober ... and being a responsible citizen in a Democracy is not about winning  or losing elections, it's about due dilligence 365 days a year.

You must be a fair weather Citizen?  

Had Kerry won I'd be on him right now to live up to his word and to have integrity in his actions as my President.   Same things go for W, he's my President too, and the Liberals are not going away.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 20, 2004, 06:53:46 pm
Brian,

Your post:

"So instead of clarifying a vague point you go and get all glib about the election. Way to go."  

I'm frankly getting tired of arguing something that everyone else, including Dems, know is a done deal.  The election is over.  Your guy lost.  Get over it.  

But so you know that I can deal with your post, here ya go....

After losing a math test about which party has held Congress and the Exec. branch longer, you switch your argument to saying it was okay...because, in essense, "look at all this good that happened."  Remeber it was you who first proposed the danger of as you put it, "all 3 brances of govt" being under one party.  My response was clear.  During the modern political era, the Dems have held the majority more than Republicans.   A more honest liberal would complain, not that one party had so much control, but they wanted their party to have that control.


Oddly enough it would appear that again you have a math/history problem.  

You said "Are you saying the last 71 years have sucked? Liberal women fought to get the vote."  

The 19th Amendment (women's right to vote) was passed in 1920...13 years before FDR took office in 1933.  That would make your now revised number 84 years ago.  After chastising me over the "fifty+" comment, you have the obligation to get your facts straight.

Of course the Civil Rights mvt. was a good thing, yet there were some colossal failures as well.  But that's not the point I made, nor was it your original response.  I was addressing the hysteria I hear about the conservatives having control of the Legislative and Exec. branch.  It was only a reminder this is nothing new.

"Liberals have just been ruining America, eh?"
Yes...absolutely.  

The idea that a anyone would allow partial-birth abortion is unconscionable.  Just imagine getting a liberal to consider banning all PBA, unless the mother's life is in danger. (this point was well argued by KK Proffitt....reality is, C-Section will be done in those cases, not PBA)  Surely that would be a resonable compromise.  But even at this, liberals won't concede.  This is truly an inhuman practice that ranks with anything done by the Third Reich.

Liberals have given power to the teacher's unions so an incompetent teacher can keep their job at the expense of the student.  (And don't go carping about No Child Left Behind.  I have a family of educators in TX that, to their frustration, are dealing with massive improvements to the education system thanks to NCLB.  I'll be happy to discuss that in another post if anyone wants.)   I remember years ago when I lived in LA, the LA Times did a story on the fact that the LA Unified School district had too many failing students.  Their plan to fix this problem?  Stop giving failing grades! From then on, nobody got a grade below a "C."  You may think I'm joking, but this was no joke.  Liberal education beliefs have said we can't tell a student they got an answer wrong.  Because it might hurt their self-esteem.  Thus, in some classes 2+2 can equal 5.  If the student tried, they considered that to be as good as a correct answer.  Similarly, just two nights ago I saw a report on TV the other night where a black college was giving freshmen students passing grades just for attending class...even if they didn't do any assignments and failed their exams.  The story centered around a black professor who was fired for refusing to go along with the program.  Imagine!  You can't be fired for being an incompetent teacher, where kids aren't learning...but you can be fired for requiring students to actually do the work!  

Don't  even get me going about forced busing.

Liberal unions have made it illegal for fire fighters to give the same physical requirements to women as men.  This idiotic idea risks the lives of those of us who need help.  If you're ever in a burning building and need to be carried out, you'll be praying for a man to be the one to rescue you instead of a woman who couldn't do the strength requirements.  

The welfare state has proven to be a pit of quicksand trapping generations of young minorities to repeat the cycle they were raised in.  Despite the billiions spent, these kids are worse then when welfare started.  To his credit, Clinton jumped on the conservative band wagon and made it his own.  Over the objections of his own party.

Liberal lawyers like John Edwards have made OB doctors opt for a C-section in record numbers due to the massive chance of a lawsuit....driving up medical costs for everyone.

Shall I go on?

How about music and art?  Here's an interesting thing you can look at.  Go to the iTunes music store and click on the Billboard Hot 100 Charts for the year.  Start anywhere you want prior to 1990 or so and start clicking the year.  If your screen is like mine, you'll see the top 28 or so songs for the year.  Now start moving forward in time to 2003.  Notce anything? The number of explicit notices from 2000 goes up dramatically.  From none, to 2003, which had either a "clean" (as if you don't know what's being said) or an "Explicit" label.  In 2003 there were 11 out of the top 28 with this "status."  Young Buck is now being sought for stabbing somone at an awards show.  Rappers kill each other.  An art exhibit with elephant dung on an image of the Virgin Mary.  "Piss Christ"  a bottle containing a Crucifix in urine.  I'm aware enough to know that some music doesn't speak to me.  And that some art is a tough thing to understand.  But sometimes, like the art exhitibit with the elephant dung, it's just shit.

I'm not for censorship and I've been known to use a good word or two.  But what's bothersome is the modern liberal culture that ses this stuff and says, "Yeah!  That's art!"  But in 300 years that society will look back on us and see this crap is representative of the best we could offer??


Now I don't believe that liberals are evil bent on ruining society. (not all of them anyway)  And I also don't believe that conservatives are all good in every case.  I'm not a fan of everything Bush as done, but I'll be happy to take the current balance over what has been going on for most of my lifetime.

And a small correction....you keep referring to the Republicans having control over all 3 branches of govt.  It's really only 2.  #3, the Judicial, is more or less independent, and generally balanced.  If you think they Supreme Court is conservative, you didn't read the decision on the Univ of Michigan Law School case on affirmative action....another poorly conceived liberal idea that the Supreme Court strongly sided with!
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 21, 2004, 10:12:04 am
David Schober wrote on Sat, 20 November 2004 18:53


And a small correction....you keep referring to the Republicans having control over all 3 branches of govt.  It's really only 2.  #3, the Judicial, is more or less independent, and generally balanced.  If you think they Supreme Court is conservative, you didn't read the decision on the Univ of Michigan Law School case on affirmative action....another poorly conceived liberal idea that the Supreme Court strongly sided with!


I guess this is where we disagree 100%

The Supreme Court is Conservative, and under Bush will be more so for the next 20-30 years.



On the whole, including with the 2000 election - they are Republicans.  If they had integrity I would be less conscerned about the Executive and Congress being Republican.

And if the MANY regulatory agencies like the NRC and FDA etc were not  in the pocket of big money I would be less concerned.




If the 2000 election is in any doubt to you, as being a political decision, you are in total denial.  The Judges LED THE GOVERMNENT LAWYER in his arguments!  Just read the transcripts.

He was headed in one direction and they kept taking him back to a winable point.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: analog Tom on November 21, 2004, 01:54:34 pm
Quote:

"Similarly, just two nights ago I saw a report on TV the other night where a black college was giving freshmen students passing grades just for attending class...even if they didn't do any assignments and failed their exams. The story centered around a black professor who was fired for refusing to go along with the program. Imagine! You can't be fired for being an incompetent teacher, where kids aren't learning...but you can be fired for requiring students to actually do the work!"
 

This sounds truly terrible.  No school should remain anonymous after doing such a thing.  Please identify the school and the professor for us.  

Quote:

"Don't even get me going about forced busing."
 

Oh, Please do!  Tell us how upset you were, and how often you spoke out, back in the 1950s, when black children were bussed past 'white-only' schools to protect the white chldren from integration.  WHY is it that you and other racists only object to "forced busing" when it's used to integrate, and NEVER when it was used to segregate? As you said:  
Quote:

"After chastising,...you have the obligation to get your facts straight."


Quote:

"Liberal unions have made it illegal for fire fighters to give the same physical requirements to women as men. This idiotic idea risks the lives of those of us who need help."
 

Still in the category of 'getting your facts straight', why not explain how you got to this conclusion after all the years of fighting and LAWSUITS by conservative, male dominated firefighters' unions to PREVENT sexual integration of the force?  Why do you LIE about that history just to justify a slam against unions?  

Now that you've explained that LIE away, please move on to citing us to the verifiable statistics that support your pretense that there have been more injuries and deaths as a result of sexually integrating the firefighters.  

Maybe you'd also be willing to go back in time, since rewriting history appears to be one of your hobbies, and explain why you conservatives opposed racial integration of firefighter and police forces before you opposed sexual integration?  Remember, back when you didn't want any n****rs fighting fires or carrying a badge and gun, you argued that such integration would disrupt the force cohesiveness.  

Now, of course, that racial and sexual integration is a fact, you conservatives are looking for new scapegoats against whom to practice your beloved bigotry.  So you argue that public safety will be harmed if we let 'fags' into the police, the firefighters, the teachers corp., etc.  

Quote:

"The welfare state has proven to be a pit of quicksand trapping generations of young minorities to repeat the cycle they were raised in. Despite the billiions spent, these kids are worse then when welfare started."
 

Sure, just as established by census and other data.  NOT!  I guess this explains your support for Bush's opposition to Head Start and other programs with proven track records?  

Just a clarification, since you PRETEND to be opposed to the "welfare state", why not explain to us why there is NOT ONE bit of corporate welfare we have heard you criticise?  

Quote:

"Here's an interesting thing you can look at. Go to the iTunes music store and click on the Billboard Hot 100 Charts for the year. Start anywhere you want prior to 1990 or so and start clicking the year...Now start moving forward in time to 2003. Notce anything? The number of explicit notices from 2000 goes up dramatically. From none, to 2003, which had either a "clean" (as if you don't know what's being said) or an "Explicit" label. In 2003 there were 11 out of the top 28 with this "status." Young Buck is now being sought for stabbing somone at an awards show. Rappers kill each other. An art exhibit with elephant dung on an image of the Virgin Mary. "Piss Christ" a bottle containing a Crucifix in urine. I'm aware enough to know that some music doesn't speak to me."
 

I guess I'm having a senior moment here.  Please remind me, just which Rapper was it who made "An art exhibit with elephant dung on an image of the Virgin Mary."?  And which Rapper was it who made "Piss Christ"?  

I do appreciate you pointing out that these changes you find so horrifying happened from 2000 to 2003, the years when your beloved Saint George was overseeing the furter consolidation of media under huge WALL ST. CONSERVATIVE corporations.  I guess your point is that this kind of "explicit" music and art which conservatives want to increase?  

Quote:

"I'm not a fan of everything Bush as done,"
 

Why then do you lavish praise on everything he has done, and make up false claims about those who oppose him or who have opposed his parties policies in the past?  

Quote:

"the Judicial, is more or less independent, and generally balanced. "
 

OK, I see, I take back all my questions.  After reading this, I can see that your entire post is meant as sarcasm or a satire of "conservative" thought.  

Cordially,  
Tom

ps: If too challenged by any of the above, feel free to join IO, JO Mark and Philbeck in dismissing the questions and facts with slanders about my sexuality, as an attempt to change the subject.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 21, 2004, 03:43:25 pm
Hey Tom,

Do you really think David is a racist?

I did not get that impression....

It looked like he was citing the erosion of standards real or perceived in America...

I don't know how many babes are actually throwing around fire hoses yet because of lowered physical standards but I thought a racist was someone who denies another person something because of ethnicity....

Maybe you meant to say bigot....

Or hell, maybe you meant to say racist...

Fukk I think he's the anti-christ....

I think the people against the sobered up cowboy are detaching from the mooring of reality....

maybe I just don't understand....

With lustful affection....

TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 21, 2004, 04:31:56 pm
Tom,

Calm down...take a breath.  If you do you'll find that some of the very things you're demanding an answer about are actually in the previous post.

As for that college...I'm trying to remember where I saw it.  It was either on CNN, MSNBC, or Fox...I can't remember which.  I'm racking my brain as to the name of the school, but I seem to remember it was in the mid-southeast.  Maybe VA or NC.  I don't recall the professor's name.  He was a 30-something teaching a core subject like English or history. If I can find the story or remember, I'll post it.

Now to the other points.  Your argument structure needs some help.  Instead of addressing the substance of my comment,  you try to invalidate my argument by saying I should have argued another point.  Doesn't work that way my man.  If you care to respond to what I've said, then we have a dialog.  Raising another issue as you did, is merely  changing the subject.

Example, the busing issue.  Because I am against forced busing for integration doesn't make me a segregationist.  As for me complaining in the 50s??  Well, I was born too late I'm afraid to have done that.  But what I do remember was exactly opposite of what you claimed happened.  Maybe the rewriting of history is what you're doing.   Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but the issue of busing was never that black kids were bussed out of their neighborhoods to another, poorer school.  Back in the 50s kids went to their own, neighborhood schools.  That was the problem.  The white kids had better schools, the black kids had poorer ones.  Busing was created to take white kids into the black areas and vice versa.  I'm afraid Tom your understanding of the whole issue is wrong.  However, you and I are in agreement that it was a sin to have unequal, or even "separate, but equal" policies to hinder integration.  Integration was one of the Democrats greatest achievements, and greatest shame to conservatives.  Can we agree on that?

You did the same on the firefighter issue.  You must have some issue yourself because you started accusing me of lying about that.  Sorry....no lie uttered.  I only stated fact.  Firefighters all across the county have had to give separate strength requirements for females in order to reach quotas, hiring goals, whatever you care to call it.  You then tried to erect a straw man argument, saying "you conservatives..." and then a litany of racist accusations that have nothing to do with me, nor anything I said.  You really got to stop that kind of silliness.  It's easy to see that I never said that.  I don't care if the firefighter is white, black, female male....whatever.  AS LONG AS THEY PASS THE EXAM!!  I don't want anyone to die because some wimpy female, OR MALE, who couldn't carry me or anyone else out of a burning building due to being shuffled along in the acceptence process for social engineering.  

As for statistics...I have no obligation to provide them.  I wasn't quoting them so I don't have to provide them.

Your quote:
"I guess I'm having a senior moment here. Please remind me, just which Rapper was it who made "An art exhibit with elephant dung on an image of the Virgin Mary."? And which Rapper was it who made "Piss Christ"?"

Like I said Tom, you need to read more carefully.  The first line of the paragraph was "How about music and art?"  I guessed you missed that.  And amazingly despite the fact that you did quote me, you missed "AN ART EXHIBIT."

No I didn't say rappers made art.  In case you need everything spelled out, "The Holy Virgin Mary" a modern somewhat abstract of Mary was made with elephant dung and clips from porno magazines, was made by Chris Ofilli.  His stuff wasn't quite so well known, until the exhibit in NY.  
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/459846.stm

"Piss Christ" you should have know about.  The artist, if you can call him that, was Andres Serrano.
A photo and story:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~twt/serrano.html

There.  Does that solve your problem?  If that was your only point, I guess it's resolved.

Now this quote of yours:

"Why then do you lavish praise on everything he has done, and make up false claims about those who oppose him or who have opposed his parties policies in the past? "

Tom, now really.  You gotta do better than that.  You've made so many straw man arguments if anyone tossed you a match you'd disappear into a big fireball.

Now as for your sexuality...I have no idea what the heck you're talking about.  You raised this.  Seems like you're baiting the discussion, but unless you have an idea or issue to discuss, I'm not biting.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 21, 2004, 06:18:38 pm
Thank you for not posting the pics and just giving the links....which I have the good fortune of abstaining from....

I mean, I don't have a TV and I don't listen to radio...except goofy talk radio....

Then there's this forum....imagine if I saw the elephant dung art.....sheesh....that would be worse than Britney Spears at the hardware store.....

FUKK, speaking of which....I have gone to inordinate lengths to escape...because I am fukked up....I live in Europe...no radio, no TV, only goofy feriners for friends and the REP and my music store is the best in the world, you can smoke a cigar while trying out the Les Pauls or Adam monitors and they serve Jack Daniels and Hefe Weizen...Erdinger as a matter of fact....yeah I know...great huh? but wait there's more they are super fukken cool and they even talk to people like me....and I can leave the store with like two grand worth of shit...but alas at the bistro (that's where the booze is) the play fukken Euro radio.....if you have never been here (Europe that is) they have like fukken 1500 years of bier culture and great food and no police beating the fukk out of you for parking your Harley on the sidewalk but get this.....THEY ONLY HAVE FUKKEN POP MUSIC ON THE RADIO.....FUKK ME...so well....yeah hope you didn't read this entire post....but if you did you are all welcome to come over and just chill and listen to some Ray Charles and Tool and Deicide and Buddy Guy....Even you fukken commies...

With Love and gratitude with major racist homophobia....

Your idiot friend in the Fatherland....(less gay that fago France)

TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: analog Tom on November 22, 2004, 02:00:06 pm
Quote:

"Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but the issue of busing was never that black kids were bussed out of their neighborhoods to another, poorer school. Back in the 50s kids went to their own, neighborhood schools. "
 

Feel free to stand corrected.  Busing was originally a southern device to get black kids away from their neighborhood white schools.  

What made busing for integration so terribly offensive to many 'conservative' segregationists was that it took their own idea and stood it on its head.  This was also what made Clinton so offensive to many conservatives - he took conservative positions and wrapped them in democrat rhetoric.  

Quote:

"You did the same on the firefighter issue. You must have some issue yourself because you started accusing me of lying about that. Sorry....no lie uttered."
 

What you said was that unions forced unsafe personnel rules onto an unsuspecting public.  That was untrue and a fabrication made solely to support a libel against unions and sexual integration of public services.  

Quote:

"As for statistics...I have no obligation to provide them."
 

You pretended that there was a public safety issue.  Your admission now is that you can't provide any support for that lie. Obligation grows from your false claim that there is a safety issue.  The problem is that despite any obligation, you have no ABILITY to provide such statistics, because the claim was knowingly false.  

Quote:

"Tom, now really. You gotta do better than that. You've made so many straw man arguments if anyone tossed you a match you'd disappear into a big fireball."
 

You mean straw-man arguments like lying about unions forcing safety problems onto the public?  Or like busing not being used to enforce segregation?  Or like the fact that you were an ardent Bush campaigner, indicating that you support his sociopathic policies?  

Its typical conservatism to simply deny history when it isn't convenient (yes, we did fund and train the taliban; yes, we did provide Saddam with the poison gas he used; yes, Israel did create, train and fund Hamas; yes, Colon did knowingly lie to the U.N.,etc. etc.).  

It is also fundamentalist conservative policy to evade fact based discussions by launching ad hominem attacks on the sexuality of their opponents. Thus my comment. Your response:  
Quote:

"Now as for your sexuality...I have no idea what the heck you're talking about. You raised this. Seems like you're baiting the discussion,"
may be accurate.  If you have not adopted the IO, JO, Mark, Philbeck style, then my comment was "baiting".  And it put you in a category in which you may not belong.  If so, I retract the bait.  

But the complete context, which points out that your post repeats false claims which have been made over and over, in a pattern of defending racial and sexual segregation, remains.  If you do not support such segregation, you should be more aware of the history, and less inclined to toss out anti-union, anti-women and anti-integration argument lines.  

Cordially,  
Tom  

Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 22, 2004, 02:36:02 pm
David Schober wrote on Sat, 20 November 2004 18:53


"Liberals have just been ruining America, eh?"
Yes...absolutely.  

The idea that anyone would allow partial-birth abortion is unconscionable.


"Partial Birth" is a lie and a manipulative term.

I have no problem with allowing Abortion ... why?  Because I value freedom and choice over governement administration of a religious value system.  And so should you.  It's a persons right, under the Christian God even, to have free will.

Neither do I have a problem with the Death Penalty ... in the cases where the offender is clearly guilty of multiple murders.

Yet most murder is a one off crime of passion, and in those cases I do not favor it.  And there are MANY cases of innocents being executed, or jailed for that matter, because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong 'look' to their skin or dress code.


Quote:


Liberals have given power to the teacher's unions so an incompetent teacher can keep their job at the expense of the student.  (And don't go carping about No Child Left Behind.  I have a family of educators in TX that, to their frustration, are dealing with massive improvements to the education system thanks to NCLB.  I'll be happy to discuss that in another post if anyone wants.)   I remember years ago when I lived in LA, the LA Times did a story on the fact that the LA Unified School district had too many failing students.  Their plan to fix this problem?  Stop giving failing grades! From then on, nobody got a grade below a "C."  You may think I'm joking, but this was no joke.  Liberal education beliefs have said we can't tell a student they got an answer wrong.  Because it might hurt their self-esteem.  Thus, in some classes 2+2 can equal 5.  


The teachers Union and ALL unions were not GIVEN their power, they earned it through suffering and negotiating with power ... the American Way.

2+2 = 4. In any school.  Exaggerating is no help to your cause.

My cousin is a career teacher and NCLB is not helping in Ohio.  Maybe in Texas and California your schools suck, and in that case you do need reform.  But in Ohio the teachers are good, and the NCLB rules are VERY counterproductive to real education and the welfare of the kids OR the teachers.

Bush ran in 2000 on states rights ... then he began to Federalize like no Rebuplican ever.  The first month he got rid of the Statewide elected Medical Pot laws in the West.  What a crock ..
states rights are good only if it draws out fundamentalists to vote against gays and for Bush in 2004, eh?

As for NCLB and the teacher rating system, if a school with the best teachers and the worst students can get B- averages, the teachers are punished.  Where a school with brighter kids and average teachers get an A-.

And as for as 'judging' children .. here's the FACTS:

Children learn DIFFERENTLY. Some will excell in certian systems and some will be crushed by those same systems.  Good education is not a strict system .. and NCLB is total bullshit in that regard.

In Texas, the NCLB thing was a big lie anyway, with kids that did poorly just kicked out to keep the numbers up.


Quote:


Liberal unions have made it illegal for fire fighters to give the same physical requirements to women as men.  This idiotic idea risks the lives of those of us who need help.  If you're ever in a burning building and need to be carried out, you'll be praying for a man to be the one to rescue you instead of a woman who couldn't do the strength requirements.


Unless you are a real fat ass, any woman firefighter is capable of pulling you out.  A different standard does not mean that public safety is at risk .. it's just a biological fact that women are not as strong.


Although I now see your pro male bias in everything you say.  Fuck compassion and sensitivity ... test, penalise and destroy for a better world!

Quote:


The welfare state has proven to be a pit of quicksand trapping generations of young minorities to repeat the cycle they were raised in.  Despite the billiions spent, these kids are worse then when welfare started.  To his credit, Clinton jumped on the conservative band wagon and made it his own.  Over the objections of his own party.


There is no welfare state. That's a lie.

There is a sense of victimization and thus entitlement in some people that comes form ... oh, maybe SLAVERY and not having the VOTE for 200 years?   I feel their pain, and although I do not believe in unfair entitlement - a fair playing field would be nice.  Like Chris Rock said "I dont want to win if I'm worse than a white guy, but if it's equal ... hell yes!   He's got a 400 year head start."

Thank God for the Chris Rocks' of the world who are intelligent and still true to their roots, while working to elevate the whole culture, black and white.



Racist as well as sexist, eh?  Are you from the south?  Still pissed about having to go a few extra steps for the less priveledged?



Quote:


Liberal lawyers like John Edwards have made OB doctors opt for a C-section in record numbers due to the massive chance of a lawsuit....driving up medical costs for everyone.

Shall I go on?


This is total spin and completely untrue.  The Federal Govnt has proven in non partisan studies even recently that lawsuits account for less than 2% of all healthcare cost increases.

Insurance costs, and drug costs ... the Conservative money machine ... are to blame for health care costs.  Are the pharmeceuticals and insurance companies contributing to Democrats?

Republicans are so far up the ass of the pharmeceuticals and insurers I really cant understand how any intelligent person would blame a lawyer who gets a few million for going before a JURY OF OUR PEERS to prosecute the MANY medical mistakes that a system that RUSHES people through at a very HIGH FEE is bound to cause.

What would you want for compensation if they cut off your dick instead of your gall bladder? What is the PERMANENT INFECTION in my friends breast worth from her botched surgery?  I say a jury of our peers is to blame, IF ANYONE is to blame ... certainly not a trial lawyer.  A lawyer is a necessary evil in a system that is about fairness and deliberation before the public.  If you hate lawyers, I understand ... but they are just doing their job.


So no judicial recourse for the common man ... no consumer protection .... screw blacks and women.  I see your points now.


Quote:


How about music and art?  Here's an interesting thing you can look at.  Go to the iTunes music store and click on the Billboard Hot 100 Charts for the year.  Start anywhere you want prior to 1990 or so and start clicking the year.  If your screen is like mine, you'll see the top 28 or so songs for the year.  Now start moving forward in time to 2003.  Notce anything? The number of explicit notices from 2000 goes up dramatically.  From none, to 2003, which had either a "clean" (as if you don't know what's being said) or an "Explicit" label.  In 2003 there were 11 out of the top 28 with this "status."  Young Buck is now being sought for stabbing somone at an awards show.  Rappers kill each other.  An art exhibit with elephant dung on an image of the Virgin Mary.  "Piss Christ"  a bottle containing a Crucifix in urine.  I'm aware enough to know that some music doesn't speak to me.  And that some art is a tough thing to understand.  But sometimes, like the art exhitibit with the elephant dung, it's just shit.

I'm not for censorship and I've been known to use a good word or two.  But what's bothersome is the modern liberal culture that ses this stuff and says, "Yeah!  That's art!"  But in 300 years that society will look back on us and see this crap is representative of the best we could offer??


Art mirrors life ... and this society is a fucked up mess.  The fact that an artist is the only one who can 'piss on christ' makes sense with the Religious Right in charge of governmemnt.

All the Religion in the world is not going to help this world, especially when it's forced by a government built on religious freedom from federal power, and when the enemy has opposing views and is more willing to suffer and die for them.  

Too bad you dont see that .. I guess you're white and male.









Capitalism and freedom get HARDER every day.

We can be PROGRESSIVE in the unfolding future or CONSERVATIVE and REGRESSIVE in response.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 22, 2004, 06:44:09 pm
Brian...

All I can say bro...is

Fringe.

Chris Rock...intelligent?

200 years?

400 years?

Were you drunk when you posted?

Dude what the fukk does being a white male have to do with your political views?

What are Mr. Powell's views?

Condi?

Bill Cosby?

Most brothers I have ever met or lived with...

Dude if you think anyone owes anyone else anything besides common decency....dude....

United states 228 - 200 = 28? WTF?

Slavery?

What the fukk are you talking about....what the fukk does slavery have to do with anything...

Fringe....

Partial Birth...manipulation...

Most murder is crime of passion....for drugs?....

Dude I thought you were maybe just opinionated...but now I see you're French...


News Flash....capitalism is a direct result of freedom....uh hello....


I think when you said this society is a fukked up mess it became clear that you're just not a happy camper....

Won't you be my happy camping buddy?  

Pitching a tent and waiting in Germany....

TIK





Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 22, 2004, 06:52:30 pm
Tom,

Could you please provide any proof about the US selling poison gas to Saddam....Malice hasn't turned up anything.....

I would love to see something besides bullshit so I can join the anti-US crowd....

Still waiting for substance beyond that of a Britney Spears song.....

Love and condescension....

TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 23, 2004, 03:36:17 pm
sixtiksix wrote on Mon, 22 November 2004 18:44


Chris Rock...intelligent?


highly

Quote:


Dude what the fukk does being a white male have to do with your political views?


for most white males ... quite a bit.  ruling class fears, and all that comes with an ever diminishing position in a changing society.

Quote:


What are Mr. Powell's views?



before or after the white males got to him?

Quote:


Condi?



white male in disguise




Quote:


What the fukk are you talking about....what the fukk does slavery have to do with anything...



that's a white male angle you're comfortable with  i suppose.


Quote:


Partial Birth...manipulation...



the term was invented to persuade.  there is no birth in these procedures ... but it sure sounds horrible!

the Right hires a maketing guy to define all of it's policies, "clear skies initiative" "healthy forests act" ... it's all about FEELINGS and not facts.

Quote:


Most murder is crime of passion....for drugs?....



it's in the moment, not premeditated ... although yes, the drug war is now causing more murders by demonizing one way to get rich in poor communnities.

why are tobacco and alcohol companies owned by rich white men (in some cases near nazi's like Coors), but crack is illegal?

legalize the illegal drugs (in a pharmeceutically driven world) and prostitution and gambling in 50 states ... and watch the deficit go down, and the culture get more healthy as it accpet itself and gets REAL with what it is.

Include the weakest people and educate them .. do not prosecute their capitalism and demonize and marginalize and disenfranchise.

Quote:


Dude I thought you were maybe just opinionated...but now I see you're French...



aah, Paris!

so beautiful ...


Quote:


News Flash....capitalism is a direct result of freedom....uh hello....



News to you, there is no pure Capitalism.  It's regulated and rightly so.  Freedom is not unlimited, never has been.

And our economy is not the AIM of our country. America is not for the economy, the economy results from the society.


Quote:


I think when you said this society is a fukked up mess it became clear that you're just not a happy camper....



Blessed and happy with my life, sad to see this country in such bad shape, and the global economy with few constraints taking the US and the global environment down.
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: Gideon on November 23, 2004, 05:14:10 pm
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 23, 2004, 10:43:52 pm
Hello again Brian,

re: partial birth abortion:

you said:

"the term was invented to persuade. there is no birth in these procedures"

You're of course correct.  There is no birth per se.  But I'm not sure you totally understand what PBA is.  If you'd care to invent another term, I'll go with it and we can discuss it with this new name.  However, changing the name doesn't sanitize the proceedure to make it somehow morally right.

Care to argue the morality of the issue instead of terms?
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: t(h)ik on November 24, 2004, 09:00:19 am
Brian,

As my counterpoint I would just like to submit your last post as my argument....

Chris Rock: highly intelligent counter to our government...

Prostitution, Drugs, Gambling, Abortion the honored values...

Condi and Colin have no value as professionals or role models they aren't "keeping it real"

I think you have finally won me over.  I can finally totally detach from reality....and start worshiping people for what they say and not what they do...

Stop demonizing crack dealers.....classic

Free at last!

Love and bewilderment....

TIK
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 24, 2004, 03:56:01 pm
David Schober wrote on Tue, 23 November 2004 22:43


You're of course correct.  There is no birth per se.  But I'm not sure you totally understand what PBA is.  If you'd care to invent another term, I'll go with it and we can discuss it with this new name.  However, changing the name doesn't sanitize the proceedure to make it somehow morally right.

Care to argue the morality of the issue instead of terms?


The morality is up to the people involved ... I leave that discussion for them.  Free will in the Bible is good enough for me, and there is no "thou shalt no stop a pregnancy through science" in there.

Everything is a miracle .. human birth is only one of many.

There IS a commandment .. what is it? ... Thou Shalt Not Kill ... so if we are going to say that there is no room for humans to interpret morality, and if you are to say that Free Will does not apply to pregnant women ...

Then what's up with this elective war in Iraq that has little to do with 9/11 except making Bin Laden look the genius and recruiting hundreds or thousands to Al qaeda ???  Seems like killing is the mandate in war... and yet Thou Shall Not Kill.  A moral dilemma indeed.

What about the Death Penalty in Texas that Gov. Bush liked to do so often? ... how is that "moral" if there is no room for human judgment in the Bible?






Oh ... the term is "abortion"


Main Entry: abor
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 24, 2004, 04:20:55 pm
sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 24 November 2004 09:00


As my counterpoint I would just like to submit your last post as my argument....



Yea .. but can you do it without misquoting or embellishing my ideas???


Quote:


Chris Rock: highly intelligent counter to our government...


Highly intelligent person.

Quote:


Prostitution, Drugs, Gambling, Abortion the honored values...


Not honored values, but good Capitalism and honorable Science in some arenas.

Quote:


Condi and Colin have no value as professionals or role models they aren't "keeping it real"



Colin sold his soul when he began lying to the UN and the American People

Condi is a mimic and a failure at her position.  Richard Clarkes documents, declassified this week, prove this beyond any doubt.

She is myopic on state-sponsored enemies and was undervaluing terror pre 9/11 and still today to some extent.  Her focus is the Cold War focus of rich white men for the last 50 years.


Quote:


I think you have finally won me over.  I can finally totally detach from reality....and start worshiping people for what they say and not what they do...



Reality is never easy ... but what they do is EXACTLY where I'm coming from.  What they say is bull, especially Condi and Colin.

Quote:


Stop demonizing crack dealers.....classic



It's not something I condone, drug use or crack sales, but it's the Free Market and an expression of Freedom  ... and that is the point of everything for the Right isn't it  ... the Free Market and Freedom?

Drug Dealers are the quintessential Republican Free Marketeers .. their taxes are so low, they pay nothing!!!  How cool is that fellow Republicans?

Seriously, the legal pharmeceutical reps are a little better then crack dealers as they do help in many cases, yet they are hardly moral.  Seen any ads lately?  Or are you aware of the price fixing against the wolrd AIDS market?  Or the fact that the Pill costs .25 to make and $25 to buy LONG after it has recoperated it's R+D costs by 1000 fold???

How about Americas dependency on pills instead of personal responsibility?  Seen any 5 year olds on pills prescribed by a Doctor and approved by a mom that's not a crackhead?  I have.



As for my defense of black Americans, their conditions are still in an infancy ... only 40 years young ... rich white men saw to that for as long as possible until brave black and white Liberals stood up to them.

In those 40 years, some blacks still feel victimized, some now act like rich white men, and a few have found real individuality and true freedom.

White people are doing, on percentage, about as well at growing beyond their family systems and the habits of their upbringing ... have a little compassion for the unhappy banker and the crackhead, both are suffering, we're all looking for Freedom and light.

The Bible says the light is through Christ, and only through Christ.  Many of us say and know that the light is in everyone, and this is threatening to power.

Ironically the Gospel according to Thomas, which was banished from Christianity in 300 AD ... said the same thing!  Scared the shit out of the church ... if the light is in everyone, how will we survive?

What is everyone had real freedom and took real responsibility???



No church!


Crap!
Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: David Schober on November 24, 2004, 06:19:37 pm
Hi Brian,

You've raised an entire school of redherrings and I'm not fishing.  I've asked for your view on only one thing...partial birth abortion.  Not abortion in general...not war, the death penalty, who shot JFK.

Your quote
"are we allowed to use the science that God gave us the intelligence to create or not?"  

In the context of this discussion this quote is so bizzare I don't know how to reply.  Are you really saying abortion is somehow a creative process?  I'm certain you didn't mean to say that, but I'm not sure what that means.  If you're meaning that advances in science which allow us to kill each other is good, merely because we created the process, then I'll have to totally disagree with you on that.

But to the question I asked.  I'm looking for a liberal, progressive, whatever they want to call themselves that will at least acknowledge that PBA is an inhuman proceedure and shoud be banned.  So far I've yet to find one.  



Title: Re: Speaking of Jefferson
Post by: lucey on November 25, 2004, 10:20:16 am
David Schober wrote on Wed, 24 November 2004 18:19

  If you're meaning that advances in science which allow us to kill each other is good, merely because we created the process, then I'll have to totally disagree with you on that.

But to the question I asked.  I'm looking for a liberal, progressive, whatever they want to call themselves that will at least acknowledge that PBA is an inhuman proceedure and shoud be banned.  So far I've yet to find one.



I refuse to discuss PBA on the basis that the definition is misleading and manipulative and funded by an AD agency.

I say that science is all fair grounds for moral choice, not dogmatic limitations.

Military weapons are science, and they kill people .. and that's all part of the human decision making process.

Made in Gods image rigtht?  So we all SHOULD be allowed to decide the tough questions ... not one religion.