R/E/P Community

R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => R/E/P Saloon => Topic started by: Fletcher on January 20, 2011, 02:24:22 pm

Title: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Fletcher on January 20, 2011, 02:24:22 pm
My personal plan if I find I have a terminal disease is to go out on my terms - coupla bags of dope sharp syringe - and a really [REALLY] nice dinner with a few close friends before my health care exit strategy.

I know there are some who want to do the hospital / hospice exit plan... and that can get brutally expensive.  Forcing families to sell homes [etc.] to meet the medical bills from hell.  

I've heard of insurance plans with "spending caps" - and other evil shit like that.  At the moment, I'm unemployed and have zero health care.  Before I moved back to the US in December and was living in the EU - I actually had no health insurance there either [subsequent to the termination of my employment] - but was under the understanding [or maybe I just wanted to believe it] that health care was considered a right - and while the care would have been bottom of the barrel - at least some would have been available.

There is a thread in Whatever Works that has turned into - or begun to turn into a discussion of healthcare in the US.  This was not the primary thrust and focus of what the thread should have been - hence I started this thread so some of our membership who feel strongly on this subject can discuss this topic without derailing the Roger Nichols thread.

Please feel free to discuss - vent - suggest to your hearts content here.

Peace.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 20, 2011, 03:02:42 pm
Thanks buddy. I hear you, and 'me too'.

Before I even go up to WW, let me throw a bit of brevity on the pile before I lose my thought.

All the profits from the top 10 last week couldn't pay for one person's cancer treatments.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: bjornson on January 20, 2011, 04:11:11 pm
My personal suggestion?
As a parent with four kids, health care decisions/expenses are the highest priority.
Before the new car, house, gear, vacation etc.
If you're self employed, research your options carefully and buy into a quality health insurance plan with a great history before you get sick.
There are good plans out there. Be prepared to pay!
Make use of the COBRA system between jobs.
Ditto on a very large QUALITY life insurance policy.
While that doesn't guarantee anything, it helps me sleep at night knowing I tried to minimize my family's risk through smart decision making and  healthy living habits.
I consider these two (large) monthly payments a critical part of my financial plan.
The system is broken no doubt. But I've got to cover my ass now to the best of my ability.
I also try not to forget that the first group health insurance plan is only 150 or so years old.




Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jay Kadis on January 20, 2011, 04:24:35 pm
I've had Kaiser Permanante health care since I was born.  It's non-profit and, while far from perfect, has continued to provide what I need at an affordable price.  We can argue about personal responsibility for our health maintenance, but accidents and unavoidable diseases strike often enough to make a comprehensive system that addresses everyone's needs a necessity.  Removing the profit motive from health care seems to me to be the first step towards a maximally functional while still affordable system.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Les Ismore on January 20, 2011, 04:34:31 pm
I'm from Canada so I find it amazing that the US has such a backward health care system.  I had a very bad disc problem a few years ago. I went to emergency (because I was told if I stayed out and waited for tests it would take a long time) and got an mri that night. I had to stay in the hospital for 2 weeks to wait for a surgery slot because it wasn't life threatening (if I went home to wait I would lose my spot in line and it would take a long time). 2 weeks later I had spinal surgery, 2 days after that I was home.
total cost...........
$0.00

put that in your pipe and smoke it.

My dad died of lukemia a couple of years ago. And it did not bankrupt the family. He spent his final days in hospital with proper care, and then in hospice. It was still tough. It always is. But it didn't cost anything. And his life's savings weren't given to some awful corporation just to give him basic hospital care when he needed it.

I think that the way these corporations have the americans by the balls is disgusting and evil. It's time for you yanks to get angry and take control back from the corporations. Quit being a bunch of pussies. Really.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 20, 2011, 04:37:51 pm
Of course in the U.S. people should if at all possible purchase the best health insurance that they can, but no one should fool themselves into thinking that's enough.  Most bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to health costs, and most of those are for people who do have insurance.  Every plan requires some sort of payment at some point, and even if that payment isn't necessary until costs reach a certain point, and even if it is only a relatively small percentage, it still can be enough to wipe out all of a family's assets.  Short of overhauling the system, I'd recommend that anyone in such a position declare bankruptcy as soon as possible.  Do not sell your home, do not take out additional loans, do not sell anything at all unless it is absolutely necessary to meet the standards for bankruptcy.  To the best of my knowledge, once bankruptcy is declared you can't lose your primary residence or possessions.  There is currently no good solution.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: ssltech on January 20, 2011, 04:59:27 pm
I suppose that I'm fortunate among US residents in that I can fall back upon the UK's health system, if something awful were to crop up.

But -since this thread seems to be 'sanctioned' for the political aspects, it annoys me that the shrieking heads of AM radio constantly refer to the US medical system as "the best on the world".

There are some fabulous doctors and healthcare professionals in the United States. -But the rest of the world shares the cost collectively within their borders... the US doesn't, and I've been told -correctly or otherwise, I have no means to test- that the US may be the ONLY civilized western society which doesn't do that.

This I find to be shocking, and I'm glad that I have an option, in case my US insurance bales on me.

Keith
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Les Ismore on January 20, 2011, 05:09:25 pm
DarinK wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 13:37


Short of overhauling the system


Exactly.
Time to overhaul. Interesting that the people who profess to be angry (tea baggers) are actually trying to re-enforce the corporate agenda. I was watching a show on CBC last month (Canada's public national network that does excellent investigative reporting) that was showing that your old buddy Karl Rove was the man behind this "grass roots" organization. They go to great effort to make it appear "grass roots" when in fact it's actually corporate roots.
They're not stupid..... they're evil.

EDIT: My memory is not as good as it used to be. Perhaps it was another senior Republican power broker instead of Rove. But I believe it was Rove. The real people behind the tea baggers go to great lengths to stay hidden.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 20, 2011, 05:14:51 pm
There is so much to say about the evils of the American Healthcare System.  Limiting my comments, I will say I find it odd that when discussing a person's illness, it can be freely said we should donate money to find a cure, but it is discouraged as "irrelevant" and "political" that we can't encourage people to fight against the diseased system driving the sick person to bankruptcy.

Barry

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Eric H. on January 20, 2011, 05:24:06 pm
Tidewater wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 20:02


All the profits from the top 10 last week couldn't pay for one person's cancer treatments.

Who is making the prices?
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Les Ismore on January 20, 2011, 05:29:02 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 14:14

There is so much to say about the evils of the American Healthcare System.  Limiting my comments, I will say I find it odd that when discussing a person's illness, it can be freely said we should donate money to find a cure, but it is discouraged as "irrelevant" and "political" that we can't encourage people to fight against the diseased system driving the sick person to bankruptcy.

Barry




But there is no "cure" for cancer. And if they did discover one (I personally believe it is almost everything in our lifestyle that contributes) they would bury it because cancer "treatment" is such a huge business. This is great! An perpetual un-winable war against an invisible enemy. Lot's of money in there....

Meanwhile corporations are still putting chemicals into your food, clothing, furniture, bedding, cars, and everything else you can think of, that are known to cause cancer.

The "cure" for cancer is to go to some island somewhere and live completely separate from society. But wait, you'll have to get to the island by boat. And most older boats are contaminated with asbestos....  (that's what killed my Aunt and another close family friend)

Arghhh.....
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 20, 2011, 05:51:51 pm
Les Ismore wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 14:09

DarinK wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 13:37


Short of overhauling the system


Exactly.
Time to overhaul. Interesting that the people who profess to be angry (tea baggers) are actually trying to re-enforce the corporate agenda. I was watching a show on CBC last month (Canada's public national network that does excellent investigative reporting) that was showing that your old buddy Karl Rove was the man behind this "grass roots" organization. They go to great effort to make it appear "grass roots" when in fact it's actually corporate roots.
They're not stupid..... they're evil.

EDIT: My memory is not as good as it used to be. Perhaps it was another senior Republican power broker instead of Rove. But I believe it was Rove. The real people behind the tea baggers go to great lengths to stay hidden.


Most Americans actually do want to overhaul the system.  Polls have indicated that 60% want some sort of public option or single payer system.  Even with that much support, there was never even a serious attempt to put such a thing in the last big health care "overhaul" (corporate giveaway with a few decent bits & pieces for the rest of us).  So it's tough to know what to do when third parties (my choice) have no real say in the system and neither major party shows any real interest in change.  Some Dem pols may talk a good game, but even Kucinich signed off on the last package after private meetings with the president.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 20, 2011, 07:31:35 pm
Eric H. wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 17:24

Tidewater wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 20:02


All the profits from the top 10 last week couldn't pay for one person's cancer treatments.

Who is making the prices?



The elves that live in the magic place that cures come from?

A shiny jewel that is polished by a unicorn princess crossing a golden rainbow of happiness?

An evil guy who only invested money in a cure to make a profit?

My mother belongs to the tea party. I take HUGE offense to anyone who calls my mother a tea bagger. Watch your mouths. Thanks. I don't call you all pillow biting commies.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND that I just lost a great friend to colon cancer, and he was on $60k worth of meds a month. and one experimental drug to the next. Was a miracle. It was free.

You know how he got that stuff? He searched for it. Helping hisself.. with help from others.

2 in a year, same circumstances. Over 1m dollars worth of meds between 2 people, not including the treatments, and visits. I have seen our system working.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 20, 2011, 08:00:32 pm
Tidewater wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 16:31

Eric H. wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 17:24

Tidewater wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 20:02


All the profits from the top 10 last week couldn't pay for one person's cancer treatments.

Who is making the prices?



The elves that live in the magic place that cures come from?

A shiny jewel that is polished by a unicorn princess crossing a golden rainbow of happiness?

An evil guy who only invested money in a cure to make a profit?

My mother belongs to the tea party. I take HUGE offense to anyone who calls my mother a tea bagger. Watch your mouths. Thanks. I don't call you all pillow biting commies.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND that I just lost a great friend to colon cancer, and he was on $60k worth of meds a month. and one experimental drug to the next. Was a miracle. It was free.

You know how he got that stuff? He searched for it. Helping hisself.. with help from others.

2 in a year, same circumstances. Over 1m dollars worth of meds between 2 people, not including the treatments, and visits. I have seen our system working.




You may not mean it this way, but please understand that what you are saying is translated in some of our minds to be, "If you go bankrupt due to illness it's your own damn fault and I don't care about you or your family's suffering, I don't care about all the Americans without healthcare, I don't care about the children who suffer & die in the current system, because it's all somebody else's fault, and if that somebody else would just try harder then all the problems would disappear."
Again, I doubt you mean it that way, but that's the way it can be interpreted.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: maxim on January 20, 2011, 08:05:53 pm
australian medicare is funded by 1.5-2.5 % tax:

  http://www.ato.gov.au/youth/content.asp?doc=/content/39655.h tm

when my father was dying from prostate cancer, he wanted to die at home, rather than a respite centre

the government provided (FREE OF CHARGE) an adjustable bed, all the necessary pain relief, including intravenous access units and twice daily respite nurse visits

it was a dignified way to go...
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Gio on January 20, 2011, 09:35:02 pm
There are definite gaps in the system. My wife and I are both self employed. We earn too much to qualify for Gov funded health programs, but not enough to afford insurance on our own. Our kids are covered by a state plan with minimal premiums, but our income is right on the cut off line to qualify the whole family. Even through the Chamber of Commerce group plan, it would cost upwards of $1,400/month for the family. Add mortgage/rent and normal expenses..... it sucks.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: jonathan jetter on January 20, 2011, 10:04:34 pm
DarinK wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 16:37

Short of overhauling the system


it is long past time to overhaul the system.

it boggles my mind that millions are not protesting daily in the streets.

a large-scale, nationwide, collective refusal to file taxes might be an effective first step.  but i think there's a good chance that we as a nation are just too far gone.

the problem is that everything is intertwined, and that many rich and powerful people have a vested interest in keeping everyone else right on the edge of poverty.  when your concern is about short-term survival there is no way for you to organize and force long-term change.

and to be fair, the average person shares some blame too.  as a culture we have become impossibly materialistic and apathetic.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 21, 2011, 03:03:45 am
DarinK wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 20:00


Again, I doubt you mean it that way, but that's the way it can be interpreted.



It's no longer safe to speak here then.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 21, 2011, 03:40:56 am
Tidewater wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 22:31


PLEASE UNDERSTAND that I just lost a great friend to colon cancer, and he was on $60k worth of meds a month. and one experimental drug to the next. Was a miracle. It was free.

You know how he got that stuff? He searched for it. Helping hisself.. with help from others.

2 in a year, same circumstances. Over 1m dollars worth of meds between 2 people, not including the treatments, and visits. I have seen our system working.



That's not a public health system, that's private pharma getting desperate people as guinea pigs for free. The worst exploitation possible. They should have PAID, and handsomely, the family of your friend for using him as a lab rat for testing not-yet-FDA-approved drugs that if approved with help from the sacrifice of your friend would give the lab billions in profits.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 21, 2011, 06:06:41 am
The sad irony of the situation is that as a result of an ideological obsession with not paying for other people's healthcare, the average American ends up paying more for his own.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Bill_Urick on January 21, 2011, 07:05:09 am
jonathan jetter wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 22:04


it is long past time to overhaul the system.



I'm sorry. Didn't this just happen? Or did I dream it?

I thought the problem was solved.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: MagnetoSound on January 21, 2011, 08:20:08 am
Tidewater wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 00:31

Eric H. wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 17:24

Who is making the prices?




The elves that live in the magic place that cures come from?

A shiny jewel that is polished by a unicorn princess crossing a golden rainbow of happiness?

An evil guy who only invested money in a cure to make a profit?

...

I just lost a great friend to colon cancer, and he was on $60k worth of meds a month.

...

2 in a year, same circumstances. Over 1m dollars worth of meds between 2 people, not including the treatments, and visits. I have seen our system working.




At those prices, YES, he is an evil guy. Or, put another way, it is an evil profit. That is perfectly clear to most people.


Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: jonathan jetter on January 21, 2011, 09:15:59 am
Bill_Urick wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 07:05

jonathan jetter wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 22:04


it is long past time to overhaul the system.



I'm sorry. Didn't this just happen? Or did I dream it?

I thought the problem was solved.



i'm sorry- i should have been more clear.  i was referring to an overhaul of this whole damn system.  not just health care.  but government.

to get back on topic- my problems with this health care reform:

1.  i do think it's unconstitutional to *require* someone to buy insurance.  i don't know what the solution is, and it's clearly a complicated issue, but i am not onboard with forcing someone to pay for a service.  it should be my right to decline that coverage, spend my own money how i please, and suffer any consequences that emerge later on.

2.  they say it will save money.  we all know how government runs things.  it will not save money.  it will not reduce the deficit.

3.  they snuck in that stupid amendment about how small businesses now have to 1099 any vendor from whom they purchase more than $600 of goods.  not just contractor payments for services, but like, even if i buy $600 from mercenary.

having said that, it's clear that the system is really broken, and so, leaving aside my belief that our government is fundamentally illegitimate, i'm actually rather in favor of trying something rather than nothing, even if i don't think it will be entirely successful.  i am somewhat impressed that my government did anything besides passing the buck to the next congress.

jon
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 21, 2011, 09:46:36 am
Tidewater wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 02:03

DarinK wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 20:00


Again, I doubt you mean it that way, but that's the way it can be interpreted.



It's no longer safe to speak here then.


It is "safe" to speak here.  But it is not guaranteed everyone (or anyone) is going to agree with you.  This process is called a "discussion".  Adults have them all the time.  It seems to me you received the most polite reply possible.  Much more so than mine...

Barry
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 21, 2011, 10:00:54 am
jonathan jetter wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 14:15

1.  i do think it's unconstitutional to *require* someone to buy insurance.  i don't know what the solution is, and it's clearly a complicated issue, but i am not onboard with forcing someone to pay for a service.  it should be my right to decline that coverage, spend my own money how i please, and suffer any consequences that emerge later on.


But that isn't what would happen.

What would happen is that you would be drained of all your money by an overly expensive healthservice,

and then, because the callousness of the American public only goes so far, and you don't actually just let people die, you would be kept alive by their taxes paying for overly expensive healthcare.

(or if it's someone else who gets ill, you'll be the one paying over the odds).

As for being "unconstitutional", well I don't know that it is, but anyway much as I admire the US written constitution as a whole, I also recognize that it was written three hundred years ago by people in very different circumstances and times change and so has the constitution. If it is the reason you shackle yourselves with a healthcare system which is both cruel to those who are unfortunate and overpriced to those who are fortunate, then change it.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 21, 2011, 10:51:01 am
It is not unconstitutional to require someone to buy insurance.  You are legally required to have car insurance when you drive.  It may be unpleasant.  It may not be what you want.  But just as you are required to pay taxes, being required to purchase health insurance is just a "health tax" or a legal way to make sure all people participate in the nation's health plan -- by that I mean the plan by which we will keep costs reasonable.

Barry
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 21, 2011, 11:25:16 am
Actually, it IS unconstitutional to require health care at the Federal level...auto insurance is always at the state level, which explains why insurance company A sometimes cannot sell in some states.

One thing that is not being addressed is reality - assuming that some sort of equal and acceptable plan is devised (doubtful), then how does the Federal gobmint ensure that people living in West Texas, rural Arkansas, Appalachia, or any tribal lands, get the exact same level of care, hospitalization, MRI, etc, as the guy living in major metro areas?

Simple answer - you can't:  these areas are already suffering from extreme doctor and facility shortages.  To mandate and force them pay for something we/they will NEVER see is beyond absurd.

Make it equal access, make it a workable plan, then lets seriously look at it...until then, it is a great thing if one lives in a metropolitan area - live outside the big cities, and you are hung out to dry
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 21, 2011, 11:41:45 am
Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:25

Make it equal access, make it a workable plan, then lets seriously look at it...


How about seriously looking at how to make it equal access and workable?

If your car was as broken as your health system was, the only discussion and argument you'd have with your partner was over which car was best to buy to replace it, not whether or not it needed replacing.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 21, 2011, 11:47:26 am
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 10:41

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:25

Make it equal access, make it a workable plan, then lets seriously look at it...


How about seriously looking at how to make it equal access and workable?

If your car was as broken as your health system was, the only discussion and argument you'd have with your partner was over which car was best to buy to replace it, not whether or not it needed replacing.


Which is what repealing this current 'system' and starting over is all about...any program that the population was advised to pass it to find out what was in it is wrong in its very nature.

How many waivers have been already granted?  This in and of itself shows the new system to be as busted as the old system, just busted for a whole new class of people.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 21, 2011, 12:33:34 pm
I'm sorry, but requiring health care coverage is NOT unconstitutional.  And as I'm not a legal expert, here is the news from someone who is:
http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/08/25/is-it-unconstitu tional-to-mandate-health-insurance/

Despite one ruling that is it unconstitutional, there have been many which have affirmed that it is.

Barry
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 21, 2011, 01:03:46 pm
And everyone has a legal opinion:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2009/06/The-Enumera ted-Powers-Act-A-First-Step-Toward-Constitutional-Government

To save you the trouble, this deals with the repeated commerce clause and the consistent manner that the government steps outside of acting within enumerated powers - of which mandated health care does not fall.

Look - I'm in favor of some sort of national health care; just not this atrocious pile of horse droppings as it stands now.  The way it sets now, it will control us, not the other way around.  Where are doctors supposed to come from?  Nurses?  Hospitals?  The every increasing specialists?  Long term care people?  

Who is going to pay them?  Who determines if they are doing a good job?  Where is the accountability?  Who decides what meds are approved and which aren't (even when they work but are deemed too expensive to the system)

See, what I am describing is very real right now - its called the VA, and I am an outpatient therein.  I see these matters ever time I go there; I don't have access to the same meds indigents in Midland County have, because the feds decided they were too expensive, whereas the County decided illegals and homeless were in fact worth the money.  I have to wait 5-10 YEARS for a knee replacement...

This is the picture of government health care as it stands right now - if this is what you want for the entire nation, be my guest, as this is what it will come to once the Federales grab power of the entire mess
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 21, 2011, 01:04:24 pm
Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:47


Which is what repealing this current 'system' and starting over is all about...any program that the population was advised to pass it to find out what was in it is wrong in its very nature.



Which if that was the attitude I'd heard from most of the naysayers when it was proposed, I would agree with you.

But I didn't see "ok, the current system is broken, it's unfair and expensive, but this proposal had problems, this xxxx would be better"

What I saw was people defending the system you had, making claims about other countries that were generally innacurate, saying they didn't want to pay for other people, spouting ideological stuff about small government, etc.

You had the chance to start over, and you botched it, because what you chould probably have done was fight to take the changes FURTHER.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Bubba#$%Kron on January 21, 2011, 01:05:32 pm
Oh yeah, Boehner and these brilliant republicans people in congress REALLY have a good plan and are just trying implement it, sure!!!   None of this horse shit is just political posturing all based on broad idealogical Bullshit that is just trying to screw people and make them suffer more!!!  How noble?!?!!?

This health care Bill now is the same as the Bob Dole plan from the 90's.   You want to re-instate pre-existing conditions? why?

cheers

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 08:47

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 10:41

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:25

Make it equal access, make it a workable plan, then lets seriously look at it...


How about seriously looking at how to make it equal access and workable?

If your car was as broken as your health system was, the only discussion and argument you'd have with your partner was over which car was best to buy to replace it, not whether or not it needed replacing.


Which is what repealing this current 'system' and starting over is all about...any program that the population was advised to pass it to find out what was in it is wrong in its very nature.

How many waivers have been already granted?  This in and of itself shows the new system to be as busted as the old system, just busted for a whole new class of people.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 21, 2011, 01:33:37 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 12:04

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:47


Which is what repealing this current 'system' and starting over is all about...any program that the population was advised to pass it to find out what was in it is wrong in its very nature.



Which if that was the attitude I'd heard from most of the naysayers when it was proposed, I would agree with you.

But I didn't see "ok, the current system is broken, it's unfair and expensive, but this proposal had problems, this xxxx would be better"

What I saw was people defending the system you had, making claims about other countries that were generally innacurate, saying they didn't want to pay for other people, spouting ideological stuff about small government, etc.

You had the chance to start over, and you botched it, because what you chould probably have done was fight to take the changes FURTHER.



I?  This is not a political matter, nor is it a personal matter...(you seem to assume I am a republican - I most certainly am not)

Here's the story:  If this thing was so good, or even if it was close to acceptable, then why would over 50% of the states of this nation in the process of suing the US as to the legality of mandated health care?  26 states' have filed suit. This should tell you something about how good this program is.

I didn't do anything...please don't make assumptions of which you know nothing about.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 21, 2011, 01:52:35 pm
Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 18:33

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 12:04

Wireline wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 16:47


Which is what repealing this current 'system' and starting over is all about...any program that the population was advised to pass it to find out what was in it is wrong in its very nature.



Which if that was the attitude I'd heard from most of the naysayers when it was proposed, I would agree with you.

But I didn't see "ok, the current system is broken, it's unfair and expensive, but this proposal had problems, this xxxx would be better"

What I saw was people defending the system you had, making claims about other countries that were generally innacurate, saying they didn't want to pay for other people, spouting ideological stuff about small government, etc.

You had the chance to start over, and you botched it, because what you chould probably have done was fight to take the changes FURTHER.



I?  This is not a political matter, nor is it a personal matter...(you seem to assume I am a republican - I most certainly am not)

Here's the story:  If this thing was so good, or even if it was close to acceptable, then why would over 50% of the states of this nation in the process of suing the US as to the legality of mandated health care?  26 states' have filed suit. This should tell you something about how good this program is.

I didn't do anything...please don't make assumptions of which you know nothing about.


I should have clarified that in that case I meant you as a nation, not an individual, nor even as a member of any political group, in case you didn't pick it up from my previous posts I'm not a US citizen.

And I've never argued that the proposed system was a good one, I've never learned enough about it to make that judgement, my position is that what you had was so messed up (whether your position is that of the selfish or the selfless, the average American was losing out compared to citizens of other developed countries) that the discussion and argument should have been about how best to replace it, how to take all the lessons learned from the rest of the world's systems (and your own) and use them to produce a new system from a clean state, not the near paranoia about paying for someone else and phobic reaction to anything which even hinted at the word socialism that I seemed to be seeing.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 21, 2011, 02:04:01 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 10:52


I should have clarified that in that case I meant you as a nation, not an individual, nor even as a member of any political group, in case you didn't pick it up from my previous posts I'm not a US citizen.

And I've never argued that the proposed system was a good one, I've never learned enough about it to make that judgement, my position is that what you had was so messed up (whether your position is that of the selfish or the selfless, the average American was losing out compared to citizens of other developed countries) that the discussion and argument should have been about how best to replace it, how to take all the lessons learned from the rest of the world's systems (and your own) and use them to produce a new system from a clean state, not the near paranoia about paying for someone else and phobic reaction to anything which even hinted at the word socialism that I seemed to be seeing.


Don't mistake the sensational stuff on the news for the reality of how Americans feel about health care.  There are many of us who did not support the new overhaul because it did not go far enough.  At least 60% of us support some sort of single-payer or public option, even though that sort of thing was never allowed to truly enter the discussion, either at the political or mass media levels.  If a true, rational, in-depth public discussion about the situation were to happen, I bet that number could approach 80% easily.  Unfortunately in the U.S. the will of the majority of people is sometimes ignored by those elected to represent the people, and often there is no viable alternative for which to vote.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Les Ismore on January 21, 2011, 02:36:31 pm
All these things keep taking me back to the movie "Idiocracy". I won't get into the whole plot here but the guy wakes up several hundred years in the future and civilization has de-evolved into a huge mess (that looks a little too much like today)
So at this point in the future they have substituted water everywhere in the world with Gatoraid. They are wondering why all the crops are dying and there's no food, so the hero (who is now the smartest guy in the world) says "Stop using Gatoraid instead of water!"  But they don't want to because a whole lot of people make their living from Gatoraid, and they no longer even remember a time when people used water anymore and it's too dramatic an idea when they've all become so used to Gatoraid.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: jonathan jetter on January 21, 2011, 02:45:15 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 12:33

I'm sorry, but requiring health care coverage is NOT unconstitutional.  And as I'm not a legal expert, here is the news from someone who is:
 http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/08/25/is-it-unconstitu tional-to-mandate-health-insurance/

Despite one ruling that is it unconstitutional, there have been many which have affirmed that it is.

Barry



hi barry,

with respect, there are many instances where some legal expert has declared something constitutional and i still don't think it is.

even the supreme court manages to fuck it up on occasion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

who knows.  maybe i'm the crazy one.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 21, 2011, 03:27:55 pm
I'm sorry but I don't understand the connection of that case to the one about health care.  I'm sorry.  I don't mean to be obtuse.  Maybe you can make it clearer for me.

With regard to 26 states suing the government over health care, it is not necessarily the states who are doing it.  By that I mean not the state government but someone working in state government.  For instance here in Missouri.  It is said "Missouri is suing over health care".  And that is wrong.  The state is fine with the health care law.  The Lieutenant Gov. isn't happy so he personally is suing.  AND IN ALL CASES, THE SUITS ARE BY REPUBLICANS.  

You have to remember that the Republicans' mission is one thing and one thing only.  It is as Mitch McConnell is on record saying -- to keep Obama from being re-elected in 2012 and to undo all he has accomplished.  A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.  So any form of health care that doesn't benefit big business is anathema to them.  

A good rule of thumb when something is being attacked is to look at who's attacking it and why.  The Republicans aren't shy about attacking or shy about stating their self-serving motives.

No health care system is perfect.  In fact, the one passed recently ("Obamacare") isn't even as good as the Republicans(!) proposed under Jimmy Carter, which was shot down by Ted Kennedy.

Face it.  This new system is as good as it's going to get for a while.  I'd like it to be even better.  Dennis Kucinich would like it to be better (and I tend to admire his stance on issues).  But unless it can somehow get down to "single payer" form, this is it.



Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: jonathan jetter on January 21, 2011, 03:49:54 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

I'm sorry but I don't understand the connection of that case to the one about health care.  I'm sorry.  I don't mean to be obtuse.  Maybe you can make it clearer for me.




hi barry,

my point is only in response to your linked article where requiring health care is declared constitutional.

my point is that i think the government has on numerous occasions wrongly declared something to be constitutional, even when i think it clearly isn't.

it's possible that i'm wrong but i think perhaps equally likely (if not moreso) that they just decide what they want to do and then create some sort of ex post facto justification.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 21, 2011, 06:08:13 pm
Thanks for the clarification.  I'm sorry I missed it the first time.

I am confident the government can be wrong.  Limitless examples.  And I'm sure The Constitution has been abused.  But if the government doesn't say what is "constitutional" then I don't think anyone else has the authority.  And as we all know, laws and morals seldom share the same bed.

Barry


Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Bill_Urick on January 21, 2011, 09:50:37 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.


Thank you for a perfect example of left-wing tactics to attempt to shut down issue based discussion by name calling and character assassination.

Way to set a Christian example, my brother.

Not.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Dominick on January 21, 2011, 09:53:51 pm
 
Bill_Urick wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 21:50

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.


Thank you for a perfect example of left-wing tactics to attempt to shut down issue based discussion by name calling and character assassination.

Way to set a Christian example, my brother.

Not.


Nothing to do with shutting down the discussion or setting a Christian example.
Just pointing out the obvious. And yes, it's pertinent to the discussion
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 21, 2011, 10:08:10 pm
Bill_Urick wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 20:50

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.


Thank you for a perfect example of left-wing tactics to attempt to shut down issue based discussion by name calling and character assassination.

Way to set a Christian example, my brother.

Not.


I'm sorry Bill but I call it as I see it.  One can be a Republican without being racist.  I've even voted Republican (in a more conciliatory time).  If you are personally offended I apologize to you.  But what else explains the attitude of the current Republican party?  It is certainly not a "socialist, marxist, national socialist" agenda.  Obama is about as centered as a President can be.  And Republicans of 20 years ago would have seen that.  The Republican Party is so far right it wouldn't know center if it bit them.  Why do you think Michael Steele was voted (last time) the head of the Party?  It wasn't his qualifications (except the one about being black).  Republicans had to show there were black people in the party.

And as far as being a Christian.  Christians are no better than anyone else -- and I'm living proof.

Barry

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 22, 2011, 12:19:05 am
Bill_Urick wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 00:50

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.


Thank you for a perfect example of left-wing tactics to attempt to shut down issue based discussion by name calling and character assassination.

Way to set a Christian example, my brother.

Not.


Hmmm...  like saying that Obama:

- Is not an US Citizen;
- Is a Terrorist;
- Is Muslim (therefore not Christian? or the intention was to reinforce the 'terrorist' libel?);
- Is a Communist;
- All other stuff that was said about him by Republicans during the campaign and is still said today by republicans and tea-somethings?

NOT name calling? NOT character assassination? 'Christian' examples? Did the party raised any opposition to those outlandish accusations?

gimme a break.

and now for a little humor:

http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac195/auto656454/obama-the-gods-must-be-crazy.jpg
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Berolzheimer on January 22, 2011, 12:31:26 am
Les Ismore wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 11:36

All these things keep taking me back to the movie "Idiocracy". I won't get into the whole plot here but the guy wakes up several hundred years in the future and civilization has de-evolved into a huge mess (that looks a little too much like today)
So at this point in the future they have substituted water everywhere in the world with Gatoraid. They are wondering why all the crops are dying and there's no food, so the hero (who is now the smartest guy in the world) says "Stop using Gatoraid instead of water!"  But they don't want to because a whole lot of people make their living from Gatoraid, and they no longer even remember a time when people used water anymore and it's too dramatic an idea when they've all become so used to Gatoraid.




But it gots electrolytes!!
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Fenris Wulf on January 22, 2011, 07:58:39 am
Les Ismore wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 19:36

All these things keep taking me back to the movie "Idiocracy".


Love that movie. The problem is that everyone who sees it thinks it's about someone else. It's not. It's about ALL of us.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 22, 2011, 10:34:19 am
Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 09:46



It is "safe" to speak here.  But it is not guaranteed everyone (or anyone) is going to agree with you.  This process is called a "discussion".  Adults have them all the time.  It seems to me you received the most polite reply possible.  Much more so than mine...

Barry



If you go bankrupt due to illness it's your own damn fault and I don't care about you or your family's suffering, I don't care about all the Americans without healthcare, I don't care about the children who suffer & die in the current system, because it's all somebody else's fault, and if that somebody else would just try harder then all the problems would disappear.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 22, 2011, 11:22:39 am
Razz

nice attempt at derailing this thread...
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 22, 2011, 11:31:31 am
If you go bankrupt due to illness it's your own damn fault and I don't care about you or your family's suffering, I don't care about all the Americans without healthcare, I don't care about the children who suffer & die in the current system, because it's all somebody else's fault, and if that somebody else would just try harder then all the problems would disappear.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Gio on January 22, 2011, 11:40:32 am
Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 11:31

If you go bankrupt due to illness it's your own damn fault and I don't care about you or your family's suffering, I don't care about all the Americans without healthcare, I don't care about the children who suffer & die in the current system, because it's all somebody else's fault, and if that somebody else would just try harder then all the problems would disappear.


Huh? I'm missing something somewhere, I just know it.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 22, 2011, 11:47:01 am
It appears that Miles wants to derail the thread by trolling.

If it is so, then it is quite sad.

I hope his next post shows us that I'm wrong.

I'd like very much to be wrong in this case.

From discussion comes enlightenment.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 22, 2011, 12:11:53 pm
That is my statement prepared by DK. Verbatim.

When I say 'nobody owes me nothing', he sees the truth of my statement as I want children to suffer and die.

It's really as crappy an argument as one can make. It's not even a logical fallacy. It's just crap, but Barry calls it discussion, and in the future the thoughts that DK bestowed upon me might be considered crimes against humanity.

I can't tell where crazy idiots will take what's left of civilization, so I am just covering my ass... and personally losing friends to colon cancer. My experiences mean nothing. It's all about agendas, and if I can't help forward those, what good am I?
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 22, 2011, 12:13:07 pm
YZ wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 00:19

Bill_Urick wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 00:50

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:27

A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane.


Thank you for a perfect example of left-wing tactics to attempt to shut down issue based discussion by name calling and character assassination.

Way to set a Christian example, my brother.

Not.


Hmmm...  like saying that Obama:

- Is not an US Citizen;
- Is a Terrorist;
- Is Muslim (therefore not Christian? or the intention was to reinforce the 'terrorist' libel?);
- Is a Communist;
- All other stuff that was said about him by Republicans during the campaign and is still said today by republicans and tea-somethings?

NOT name calling? NOT character assassination? 'Christian' examples? Did the party raised any opposition to those outlandish accusations?

gimme a break.

and now for a little humor:

http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac195/auto656454/obama-the-gods-must-be-crazy.jpg



ME TROLLING?
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 22, 2011, 12:18:24 pm
Hey Miles, where is the trolling part of my quoted post above?

If it is the humor part where I placed the picture, I can remove it if it's offensive.

But the rest of the text is a direct reply to Bill's statements that only the 'left' does character assassination, etc. and it would be up to him to rebate what I wrote, if he so wishes.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 22, 2011, 12:28:08 pm
The topic was one thing, and then blammo.

Bill is right. I got the shutdown notice here.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 22, 2011, 01:21:29 pm
Barry, when you said:

Quote:

You have to remember that the Republicans' mission is one thing and one thing only. It is as Mitch McConnell is on record saying -- to keep Obama from being re-elected in 2012 and to undo all he has accomplished. A black guy got to be president and the racists went (even more) insane. So any form of health care that doesn't benefit big business is anathema to them.


Is this a true reflection of how you feel about Republicans, and about why they are attempting to reverse the so called Obamacare?

If this is the case, then I'm afraid my friend you are misunderstanding the entire situation.  It goes much MUCH deeper than the superficialities you mentioned (which are simply false, based on what I know of Republicans in my part of the world)

C'mon man...if you are not willing to at least consider they may be doing these things because they honesty and truly believe they are doing what is best as they see it based on Constitutional interpretation and the voices of their constituents, then there really is no hope for any of us, is there?  This matter will be just one of the thousands of others that will eventually rip the nation into no more than warring factions...

As much as all parties make me want to vomit, I still have some degree, however slight, that perhaps some actions in congress are being done as a result of the voice of the people who put them there, and most polling data I've seen from all angles suggests most people want HRC repealed and reworked.

Jes saying man....
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 22, 2011, 01:58:11 pm
I love your optimism.  I am 57.  I've seen enough of politics to know who has your interest at heart and who doesn't.  If you don't think racism is part of the Right-Wing agenda then look at Arizona as evidence.

I want to keep this thread on track but here is McConnell saying the most important thing is to get rid of Obama.
 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40007802/ns/politics-decision_20 10/

Now back to health care:
1. Americans are already rationing health care based on the current system
 http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/americans-self-rationing- health-care

2. "Red" states have the worst health care:
 http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/red-states-unhealthiest-r esidents-worst-health-care

3. Here, then, is the Republican 10-Point Plan for Health Care (which is not to change anything).
   1.   50 Million Uninsured in America
   2.   Another 25 Million Underinsured
   3.   Employer-Based Coverage Plummets Below 60%
   4.   Employer Health Costs to Jump by 9% in 2010
   5.   One in Five Americans Forced to Postpone Care
   6.   62% of U.S. Bankruptcies Involve Medical Bills
   7.   Current Health Care Costs Already Fueling Job Losses
   8.   94% of Health Insurance Markets in U.S Now "Highly Concentrated" -- in other words, in the hands a limited number of companies.
   9.   Dramatic Decline in Emergency Room Capacity
   10.   Perpetuating Red State Health Care Failure

Notice how there are no conservative voices in the thread anymore.  They complain they have been "shutdown" here.  Once confronted with facts they have no rebuttal...  
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 22, 2011, 02:06:05 pm
Jay Kadis wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 13:24

 Removing the profit motive from health care seems to me to be the first step towards a maximally functional while still affordable system.

Removing the profit motive from health care is the first step toward being a semblance of a civilized nation. There is not a philosophical or spiritual tradition at any point in Western OR Eastern history that sanctions benefiting from another's misfortune. Not even Ayn Rand. We certainly can't declare ourselves to be a Judeo-Christian nation and still permit it.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jay Kadis on January 22, 2011, 02:35:51 pm
Wireline wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 10:21


C'mon man...if you are not willing to at least consider they may be doing these things because they honesty and truly believe they are doing what is best as they see it based on Constitutional interpretation and the voices of their constituents, then there really is no hope for any of us, is there?  This matter will be just one of the thousands of others that will eventually rip the nation into no more than warring factions...
What they are doing is what is best to preserve the "free market" idea that everything should be profitable for those who have cornered the market.  They use the constitution as a bludgeon when it suits their goal and ignore it when it does not.  This kind of politics is not new, but I hope at some point we will grow as a nation and realize we are being taken advantage of by manipulative wealthy interests that are NOT the interests of the majority of citizens.  They're just putting words in our mouths.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 22, 2011, 02:54:07 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 13:58

I love your optimism.  I am 57.  I've seen enough of politics to know who has your interest at heart and who doesn't.  If you don't think racism is part of the Right-Wing agenda then look at Arizona as evidence.

Notice how there are no conservative voices in the thread anymore.  They complain they have been "shutdown" here.  Once confronted with facts they have no rebuttal...  



You just called me a racist because the healthcare system isn't your's.

Would you like to take another run at that before I respond in thes forum for the final time? My response will surely have me banned, and I just want to make sure I am not wasting my words.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 22, 2011, 05:15:05 pm
Miles,

I didn't call you a racist.  Show me where I said that.  I said people can be Republicans and not be racist but racism is indeed part of the Republican agenda.  That doesn't mean every Republican supports every aspect of that agenda.  I don't support every aspect of the liberal agenda.

I would be very unhappy if you and I had a personal falling-out.  I would be very unhappy if you were banned.

Barry
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: zakco on January 22, 2011, 05:23:53 pm
Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 11:35

 I hope at some point we will grow as a nation and realize we are being taken advantage of by manipulative wealthy interests that are NOT the interests of the majority of citizens.  They're just putting words in our mouths.



Well said Jay
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 22, 2011, 05:49:14 pm
Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 11:35

This kind of politics is not new, but I hope at some point we will grow as a nation and realize we are being taken advantage of by manipulative wealthy interests that are NOT the interests of the majority of citizens.

I think its a little more complex than that. The Wall St. system of shareholding is partially to blame here, and that means more than just wealthy interests, although it always means self-interest. The vast majority of the profits go to Execs and the largest shareholders - but if any one of us is a shareholder in a mutual fund that invests in  health-prevention company, then we are also to blame.

This system allows us to profit when our fellow citizens do well, but it also allows us to profit when they don't.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Rader Ranch on January 22, 2011, 06:06:11 pm
Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 14:35

 This kind of politics is not new, but I hope at some point we will grow as a nation and realize we are being taken advantage of by manipulative wealthy interests that are NOT the interests of the majority of citizens.


It's been like that from the very beginning. It's what Theodore Roosevelt and other "Trust Busters" struggled to begin to regulate back at the height of the early industrial age. Has as much to do with human nature as anything. There have been some improvements. A global consciousness due to all the instantaneous communication possible in all corners of the world now will eventually help, I hope. In my lifetime? I dunno...
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jay Kadis on January 22, 2011, 06:36:23 pm
mgod wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 14:49

Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 11:35

This kind of politics is not new, but I hope at some point we will grow as a nation and realize we are being taken advantage of by manipulative wealthy interests that are NOT the interests of the majority of citizens.

I think its a little more complex than that. The Wall St. system of shareholding is partially to blame here, and that means more than just wealthy interests, although it always means self-interest. The vast majority of the profits go to Execs and the largest shareholders - but if any one of us is a shareholder in a mutual fund that invests in  health-prevention company, then we are also to blame.

This system allows us to profit when our fellow citizens do well, but it also allows us to profit when they don't.
Wall Street is simply legalized gambling, but with less regulation.  It should be at least as heavily taxed as Indian casinos.  Individual investments are minimal compared to the institutional ones, some of which admittedly do benefit workers and small investors, but overall it's just enough crumbs to allow the argument that they are "helping the little guy" while they're actually helping themselves.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 22, 2011, 06:36:41 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 09:11

That is my statement prepared by DK. Verbatim.

When I say 'nobody owes me nothing', he sees the truth of my statement as I want children to suffer and die.

It's really as crappy an argument as one can make. It's not even a logical fallacy. It's just crap, but Barry calls it discussion, and in the future the thoughts that DK bestowed upon me might be considered crimes against humanity.

I can't tell where crazy idiots will take what's left of civilization, so I am just covering my ass... and personally losing friends to colon cancer. My experiences mean nothing. It's all about agendas, and if I can't help forward those, what good am I?



If you're going to quote me, quote the whole thing, please.  This is what I said, 'You may not mean it this way, but please understand that what you are saying is translated in some of our minds to be, "If you go bankrupt due to illness it's your own damn fault and I don't care about you or your family's suffering, I don't care about all the Americans without healthcare, I don't care about the children who suffer & die in the current system, because it's all somebody else's fault, and if that somebody else would just try harder then all the problems would disappear." Again, I doubt you mean it that way, but that's the way it can be interpreted.'
This was not in reference to the "nobody owes me nothing" statement, but to your description of an example of the current system working well for some friends of yours due to their efforts.

I think it's helpful for people with different opinions to really understand how the 'other side' hears what they are saying.  Somehow I'm sure my posts read differently depending on whether the reader agrees with me.

Years ago I heard of a dispute resolution technique where only one side could talk at a time, and the second side had to re-state the first side's points to the satisfaction of the first side before the second side could then respond to those points.  Basically one can't respond until the other side is certain you truly understand their point.  This method really appeals to me, maybe because being misunderstood really frustrates me & I hope to avoid doing that to others.  I apologize for failing in this case.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 22, 2011, 07:30:54 pm
I write poorly.

The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.

We have been taught to expect too much. It was bad teaching. I thought anything was possible at one time. It is not.

I am not against changing how people do healthcare.

I do know the government isn't very good at anything. It's made of people who were elected because they look nice in a suit. They eat Kobe beef, regulate light bulbs, food as fuel, and print money.

The ideas bounced around so far are hardly any more thought out by the end user than the *regulations* that setup the real estate debacle. In the future, resources are going to shrink. It's going to be even less possible.

Wall of text, and hardly a point touched. It's overwhelming. Massive, lossful.

I miss Dan. He was a drinker. They didn't see anything until he was stage IV. He blamed chemicals in a river he swam in as a child. I don't know if I buy that, but I miss him. His doctor (oncologist) contracted colon cancer about 80% of the way through that journey.

I carry a hand written message. That message reads: DO NOT RESUSCITATE

My life is a lesson in humility, for me at least. I don't mind if I become an irony in the end. You guys can joke about how I asked for what I got all you like, because I did ask for what I got.. prolly.

Do ironies get titles? What will the jokes be? I want to laugh too. I wonder.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 22, 2011, 08:08:16 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 16:30

I do know the government isn't very good at anything. It's made of people who were elected because they look nice in a suit. They eat Kobe beef, regulate light bulbs, food as fuel, and print money.

Then our government must suck uniquely. Plenty of other people and their governments have figured this out.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 22, 2011, 08:44:07 pm
Uh...Barry,

I am very conservative.  What I am not is republican, racist, or tea anything.  You seem to have this misguided mindset that everyone who follows a set of conservative values (what we used to call Southern Democrat) is some sort of monster - seems you have bought into the rhetoric instead of thinking these things out for yourself, and that is fine with me.

In my 54 years on this earth, I've seen a lot of discourse, but never the group think focused hatred for one subset of voting citizens based on what another subset of voting citizens tries to dictate.  If Obamacare, or any other agenda is so critical that it causes you to abhor your neighbors, perhaps the issue really lies elsewhere?  I don't know, but I would look at myself before blindly accusing people of being racists just because they happen to be conservatives.  That, amigo, is racial profiling, and I thought you guys were dead set against that.

Long story short - McConnell does not speak for every American, nor does he speak for every conservative.  Chances are better than not he doesn't speak for the majority of Americans any more than Alan Grayson did when he ranked like an insane man who had not taken his anti-psychotic drugs in quite a while.  

So I'll ask you, since we are supposed to all be civil adults here engaged in conversation - we can all talk these things out without you calling me or any other conservative a racist.  Frankly, that's the kind of talk that has gotten us where we are today.  As for you tube examples, screw that - tell me YOU think, not what those guys think...It might be beneficial to the dialog

Thanks man
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 22, 2011, 08:46:58 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 16:30



The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.




I think this is a fundamental difference between us.  I feel that we are not dealing with anything alone. Human beings are social animals.  We are not "lone wolves".  We cannot survive without each other's help.  We all provide for each other.  We are all interconnected.  Unless you live alone in the wilderness receiving absolutely nothing from anyone ever, and you were born there alone & never received anything from anyone (including knowledge & emotional support), then you have received from others, and have been receiving from others your entire life.  And you have been giving to others, too, your whole life.  It's the only way humans beings have ever existed or could ever exist.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 22, 2011, 08:59:18 pm
Just my opinion on the racist accusations:  I think that the conservative/Republican machine (the Republican party organization & leaders, the Tea Party organization & leaders, Fox news, Limbaugh, etc.)  are definitely using racism to further their own ends.  Whether or not they are actually racist doesn't change that, and whether or not specific conservative individuals are racist doesn't change that.  
I don't blame individual conservatives for the racism being thrown around.  I don't blame individual Muslims for the hatred of some radicals, either.
Somehow I think if Hillary had gotten elected we'd be seeing a whole lot of sexism from the conservative machine.  If an older man had been elected we'd see ageism.  And so on.  And the Democratic machine does the same sort of thing.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jay Kadis on January 22, 2011, 09:19:17 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 16:30

I write poorly.

The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.

We have been taught to expect too much. It was bad teaching. I thought anything was possible at one time. It is not.
Actually you write very well, like a songwriter.  

Even though you might not be able to provide for me, we should collectively be able to cover you if we have better fortune and you need it.  The "anything is possible" thing is correct on a technicality but shouldn't be taken too literally I'm afraid.  Music is a precarious way to make a living and always has been, save for the lucky few that made millions in the short time it was possible.  Much is still possible.  And we could do better.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 22, 2011, 09:24:36 pm
Ken,

I can clearly make a distinction between conservative and racist.  I haven't bought into anything other than what I have observed with my own eyes.

Not all conservatives are racists.  I don't know how often I can say it.  But there is racism being practiced by the Republicans and the Tea Party.  It is blatant.  I see it plainly in Arizona.  I see it plainly as practiced by the Republicans in the national Senate and House. If you're not a member of those groups then you shouldn't be offended.

You say you're not that kind of person.  I've no reason to doubt you.

Many a "Southern Democrat" became a Republican after Democrats supported Civil Rights.

An example of Republican racism recently was that whole "don't build a mosque at ground zero" bullshit.  There already was a mosque at that site which had been there for years but once racism in the voters had been stirred up and the election won, the Republicans didn't need to talk about it anymore.

You see it in Rush Limbaugh.  The most recent was his ridiculing of the Chinese President when Rush "spoke Chinese" with a racism one wouldn't accept from an 8 year old.

Finally, the conservative effort to segregate North Carolina schools.  It's a Republican effort to destroy a successful integration between races and economic classes.          http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggle/2011/01/21/weak-tea -party-connection-to-wake-county-n-c-school-board.html
Although not a Tea Party movement it is a conservative one.

It's there.  It's staring us all in the face.  The message is clear -- if you're not of white, European descent then you're not worthy of this country.  That's the whole "Obama wasn't born here, show us your birth certificate" thing.  None of that would be said if he were white.

DarinK is correct.  The Republicans will go for whatever they think achieves their end and racism is just today's tactic.

Alan Grayson is one of the few true-talking politicians.  I also cherish what Dennis Kucinich has to say.  But I'm smart enough to know they would never be able to compromise with conservatives so I know they could never be president.  But that also doesn't make them wrong.

But this thread is about health care.

Barry
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: zakco on January 22, 2011, 09:36:24 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 16:30


The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.


It saddens me to even read these words of isolation and acceptance of suffering.

I can't imagine what society would be like if everyone shared your viewpoint (though you have every right to feel the way you do).

Where does this (seemingly uniquely american) perspective come from? This fear of a society where each individual shares in the security of his neighbors...

It seems to be the same people who have no problem throwing as much cash as they can at the military industrial machine, because *gasp* their government says they need to...


Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 22, 2011, 10:09:26 pm


Quote:

Alan Grayson is one of the few true-talking politicians.


Was Grayson a true talker when (addressing health care) he spoke on the Congressional record that the only thing republicans wanted you to do when you got sick was to die quickly?

Where was the outrage when people were joking about raping Palin's daughter?  Is Thom Hartmann's claim that right wing radio is no more than a call to arms (literally)?  Was left wing radio talker John Sylvester's mocking Wisconson's Lt Gov Kleefisch and her battle with cancer, and making comments about her 'running a train' to bring business to her state a welcome addition to political dialog?

This is the kind of thing I am talking about Barry...We can exchange examples of 'spokespersons' on either side of the aisle, or we can acknowledge there are assholes on all sides of the fence, and work around these things to come up with an acceptable solution.

Naive - perhaps.  I prefer to think there are enough average Joe's left in this nation that still can tell BS from reality, regardless of which direction it comes from.  Once its all said and done, all we have is what we have - and what we have should not be under the control of any government.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 22, 2011, 11:30:50 pm
Ken, you're not refuting my charges of racism with any evidence.

Health Care:
I hate to be repetitious but here are the facts I posted a few pages back.

1. Americans are already rationing health care based on the current system
    http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/americans-self-rationing- health-care

2. "Red" states have the worst health care:
    http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/red-states-unhealthiest-r esidents-worst-health-care

3. Here, then, is the Republican 10-Point Plan for Health Care (which is not to change anything).
1. 50 Million Uninsured in America
2. Another 25 Million Under-insured
3. Employer-Based Coverage Plummets Below 60%
4. Employer Health Costs to Jump by 9% in 2010
5. One in Five Americans Forced to Postpone Care
6. 62% of U.S. Bankruptcies Involve Medical Bills
7. Current Health Care Costs Already Fueling Job Losses
8. 94% of Health Insurance Markets in U.S Now "Highly Concentrated" -- in other words, in the hands a limited number of companies.
9. Dramatic Decline in Emergency Room Capacity
10. Perpetuating Red State Health Care Failure

You tell me Ken how the Republicans are improving health care.

Barry

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 23, 2011, 12:51:57 am
It's nearly 4AM here and my mind may not be all that clear, but...

To the U.S. conservatives:

If I understood it right, the conservative position is that no citizen shall be forced to pay for another citizen's health care via the use of taxation or any other means to 'socialize' it; some have expressed they don't wish to be 'a burden' to other citizens, and the general conservative consensus is that one has to think, plan and act by himself in order to provide health care for his family without being a 'drain' on the whole society.

OK.

I won't discuss that. I just want to know if the above is 'the conservative point of view' and that it is the 'official' party line of the US Right.

If that is so, THEN:

It's time for the conservative political leaders to show they have guts and that they mean what they say by proposing the total abolition of health care benefits for the political class; politicians should not be a burden on society by receiving the luxury of first-class FREE medical attention while the common hardworking people have to WORK for it.

To the U.S. liberals:

If I understood it right, the liberal position is that no citizen shall be subject to inferior health care and risk bankruptcy from medical bills, via the use of taxation or any other means to provide some semblance of a more egalitarian and accessible public health care system; the general liberal consensus is that one shouldn't be left alone by society because of an illness, that society has a whole has a duty to extend a caring hand to all citizens in a dignified way; health care is a right of all citizens.

If that is so, THEN:

It's time for the liberal political leaders to show they have guts and that they mean what they say by proposing the total abolition of health care benefits for the political class; politicians should not receive the luxury of quality FREE medical attention paid by the whole society until the whole society can have it too.

Do I make sense?

Time to show the politicos who the **** is in charge.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 23, 2011, 01:52:22 am
Wireline wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 19:09

 
Quote:

Alan Grayson is one of the few true-talking politicians.

Was Grayson a true talker when (addressing health care) he spoke on the Congressional record that the only thing republicans wanted you to do when you got sick was to die quickly?

Completely. That's the fundamental premise of the insurance run system. What he omitted was that the Dems support it too.

And this name "Obamacare" - this is just a giveaway to insurance companies, as is everything in the US - some sort of giveaway to the largest contributor.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 23, 2011, 02:03:34 am
Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 21:19




Even though you might not be able to provide for me, we should collectively be able to cover you if we have better fortune and you need it.



Humbled again. Please don't do it with a mandate.

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity. I believe this, and it may be the core of my disagreeance.

I must be able to choose, no matter what the choices are.

Wow, it took you like 10 posts, but I think I got you figured out MG. You can ride on my back next time we get to deep water!
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: jonathan jetter on January 23, 2011, 02:04:30 am
mgod wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 20:08


Then our government must suck uniquely. Plenty of other people and their governments have figured this out.


this is essentially my view on the matter.

our government exists to serve a very small % of the super-wealthy, and generally remembers to pay just enough lip service to everyone else so that the masses don't take to the street with weapons.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 23, 2011, 02:33:51 am
Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 05:03


I must be able to choose, no matter what the choices are.


You'll still be able to choose NOT to use the public health system if you don't want to 'be a burden'.

A lot of well-to-do people (and not-so-well-to-do) in my country choose not to use our public health system...

I find that's a very altruistic attitude, leaving the public system to the most needy but never refraining from contributing to its maintenance.

The next paragraphs are _not_ directed at you personally:

What I feel is that a number of people don't want to contribute to someone else's well-being out of sheer greed and want to masquerade as altruistic 'christian' people who want to pick and choose whom to help...  which is in fact against all christian beliefs...  seek no reward or gratitude from your good actions, do it because it is the right thing to do; who is entitled to decide who's worthy and who isn't besides God?

So many people like to be able to say to themselves "I donated $50 to help that colleague I know and respect, so I did my duty, I'm at peace with my religious beliefs then" while so many deserving but unknown and distant individuals remain suffering...

I tell you what, every time I receive wages here, a percentage is discounted towards our state health care system, and I find it VERY comforting to know that somewhere, hundreds of miles away from where I am, someone in need is being helped by my contribution, someone I never knew and may never hear about; that there is less misery because I don't have to locate, pick and choose amongst the needy; that we do have a system that tries to care for everybody in need and while FAR from perfect, works better than individual-to-individual contributions.

NOTE: when I'm 'working solo', I pay from my own free will a monthly contribution to our state health system. I could choose not to do so, and that choice would have NO impact in my ability to use the system if I ever need it.

But I pay.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 23, 2011, 03:10:17 am
Does that mean I should stop requiring an email address from the homeless people I give food to?

I missed ethics, but marketing was a really fun class.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 23, 2011, 08:19:17 am
Barry, as it sets, the republicans aren't...Obama's forced HRC was a big ol wakeup call though.  Perhaps now that they tasted how European and US values differ in this matter, and how there is a national desire for something to get done, just not this current plan, maybe they will figure out that for continued employment, they best come up with something together, or they can join the soup lines...As it stands, on one has explained with any real validity how this thing (as is) will be paid for, as long as states, counties, cities, hospital districts, school districts, my brother's district, etc, can all add a tax to whatever you spend - oh yeah, everyone I know on a payroll took a big old hit on their 2011 monthly already, smack dab in the middle of high heating fuel costs, very expensive gasoline, raising food prices, and of course, skyrocketing prescription drugs.  All of these things cannot be separated - each and every penny that comes out of the families' monthly income must be taken into account...and yes, some families will benefit greatly from the current plan (if then can last until it becomes fully effective), while the new drain might be the end of others - so depending on your perspective, the current plan can be a lifesaver or a death sentence.

And this is the whole point of repeal, and start again.

I'll take my medicine.  Cram it down my throat and I'm likely to puke it back up on the doctor's pretty shirt, fire him, pinch the nurse's butt on the way out, and file suit on the whole lot of them.  This seems to be what is happening now.  Again, superficially it's a Rep/Dem argument, but in coffee shops, kitchens, county fairs, etc, any place where the average citizens are likely to be found, I believe its more of an American issue, not a partisan one.

And those who make it partisan for political gain should be recalled or removed from office at the earliest possible cycle.  

Not every issue confronting the nation MUST become an us vs. them, based solely on which letter appears on their voting card.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 23, 2011, 08:21:49 am
Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 00:30

The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.


Yes you can.

Because if you get together on this thing, you can all provide for each other, you can all have the healthiest lives that medical care can give you and the easiest most dignified death.

You can all do it without being bankrupt as you reach the end, adding the misery of the state you leave your family in.

And it can all be cheaper than every man for himself.

You as an individual MIGHT be lucky in health and so unlucky in payment, since you'll be paying for care you don't use yourself (but if you have insurance then you'd have been doing that anyway).

You might also be unlucky in health, and so lucky in payment.

And since a decent socialized system is cheaper than the what you had (don't know about what you now have), then statistically speaking, you'll probably be better off financially.

Nobody has yet achieved the utopia I describe, at least not the first bit, but socialized systems are a lot closer to it than what you seem to be clinging to.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 23, 2011, 08:28:54 am
Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 07:03

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity. I believe this, and it may be the core of my disagreeance.


Oh dear, so that means, I, YZ, any Canadians here, etc are all members of some group that is not "pure humanity"?

Because we all live in countries that have institutionalized the altruism you're talking about.

And much as we might gripe about the National Health Service, much as we might feel it could be improved, ask a Brit whether he wants the NHS replaced by the traditional US system, and I'd lay good odds you'll get a few choice words about "humanity".
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Les Ismore on January 23, 2011, 03:29:48 pm
There is nobody and I mean NOBODY in Canada who would like to go back to a US style system (except for some private insurance companies, for profit private medical companies and a few politicians they own).

If universal healthcare is really such a horrible idea to the US, then they should also make fire protection, police, schools, road maintenance, and all the other basic services a for profit user pay system as well. Otherwise you are lying.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 23, 2011, 03:31:48 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 23:03

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity.

Nonsense. Childish thinking. Sorry.

Unless you live in The Little Prince on a planet by yourself, you live in a town, in a state, in a country, in a world with others. Therefore, your security requires others to not need what you have. To protect yourself, the well-being of others is the essence of your own security. Call it "enlightened" self-interest if you like - in this case the enlightening realization that you breathe in what plants breathe out, unless your neighbor makes it un-breatheable.

Even the super-rich can't hire enough security to protect them from an ever-increasing number of poor and hungry forever. We are in this together. You are my burden, so start carrying.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 23, 2011, 04:15:28 pm
Ken,  it seems to me you are confused about the new Health Care laws.  So many think it is a government health care but it's not.  It is a reform of the private companies and what they are allowed to do and not do.  There is no government health insurance.  That was the single payer plan which never passed.  And there is still no requirement that you have health insurance.  There is no need to scrap anything and start over.  That's Republican speak for let's not do anything.  Why?  Because the Republicans don't have a health care plan, as I've previously pointed out.

Once again, THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT REQUIRED HEALTH CARE COVERAGE AND THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE (except Medicare/Medicaid).  So there is no need to scrap anything.

Please go here to understand the new law better.
http://www.healthcare.gov/law/introduction/index.html

Barry

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 23, 2011, 04:39:33 pm
Barry, what I ask is for you to look at 1 Jan 2014, and note that the Internal Revenue Service has been specifically tasked to make the determination of who can afford it, and how much fines to levy if they choose not to.

Does this sound voluntary to you?

The same reference makes all sorts of hoopla about Medicaid - you are aware (I hope) that in many parts of the nation, doctors of all sorts are refusing to accept new medicare and medicaid patients because of these government programs don't pay the going rates, are notorious slow to pay, and in many cases refuse claims?  Relying on these things is business suicide from the doctor's point of view now, much less in the future.

See, all these things are fine and dandy in theory - in reality, they cannot work for a couple of very real reasons.  First, if there is a critical doctor/nurse shortage now, with fewer and fewer entering the field, who is going to treat all these people?  Doctors can only work so many hours a day.  Most doctors here don't speak English as their primary language - this doesn't help the matter when patients needs translators.

Secondly, with the economy already tanking, forcing people to buy insurance under the control of government regulation and enforcement is, regardless of how you want to brand it, government health care.  When the IRS can fine you for NOT buying health care (punitive action) that is government health care.

Third, and most important IMO, the people who this affects the most never had one iota of sayso in whether we wanted this or not.  It was jammed down our throats.  An awful lot of us resent that fact, and even if it was sugar coated, its still suspiciously resembling a turd.  Give us, the voting bloc, at least the courtesy of asking us if we would like to eat the sugar coated turd...maybe we could come up with something a bit nicer.

That's what we are asking for...a little more control of what in essence is being dictated to us.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 23, 2011, 06:25:37 pm
mgod wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:31

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 23:03

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity.

Nonsense. Childish thinking. Sorry.

Unless you live in The Little Prince on a planet by yourself, you live in a town, in a state, in a country, in a world with others. Therefore, your security requires others to not need what you have. To protect yourself, the well-being of others is the essence of your own security. Call it "enlightened" self-interest if you like - in this case the enlightening realization that you breathe in what plants breathe out, unless your neighbor makes it un-breatheable.

Even the super-rich can't hire enough security to protect them from an ever-increasing number of poor and hungry forever. We are in this together. You are my burden, so start carrying.


Huh? hahaha NO EFFIN WAY! You are saying it's a damned ransom payment UP FRONT!

Hey, I have guns. I have been robbed, just 3 years ago.. in my own driveway. Took $3500 cash and prizes, at gun point. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..

I defend, I don't relenquish. New rules.

Now you screwed the whole thing up, I won't be paying ransom for ANYTHING. rofl... HOW CHILDISH.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 23, 2011, 07:54:04 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 21:25


Hey, I have guns. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..


Thou shall not kill.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 23, 2011, 08:05:48 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:25

Huh? hahaha NO EFFIN WAY! You are saying it's a damned ransom payment UP FRONT!

Hey, I have guns. I have been robbed, just 3 years ago.. in my own driveway. Took $3500 cash and prizes, at gun point. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..

I defend, I don't relenquish. New rules.

Now you screwed the whole thing up, I won't be paying ransom for ANYTHING. rofl... HOW CHILDISH.

Then you deserve to lose what you've accumulated to those who want it more.

There are two ways out - the one you prefer, with a bullet to the brain in your little cowboy game (the old rules), or through co-operation with your fellow human beings.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 23, 2011, 08:21:45 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:25



Huh? hahaha NO EFFIN WAY! You are saying it's a damned ransom payment UP FRONT!

Hey, I have guns. I have been robbed, just 3 years ago.. in my own driveway. Took $3500 cash and prizes, at gun point. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..

I defend, I don't relenquish. New rules.

Now you screwed the whole thing up, I won't be paying ransom for ANYTHING. rofl... HOW CHILDISH.


Why do you assume you'll be the only one with a gun, or the one who shoots first, or is a better shot?  
By your rules, whoever is the best at killing people gets whatever they want.
 By the rules some of us others are proposing, no one gets killed, everyone gets what they need, everyone makes some small sacrifices.  I prefer that scenario, but it does go against rugged American frontier individualism (which has always been a myth anyhow).

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jay Kadis on January 23, 2011, 08:26:11 pm
Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:25

mgod wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:31

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 23:03

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity.

Nonsense. Childish thinking. Sorry.

Unless you live in The Little Prince on a planet by yourself, you live in a town, in a state, in a country, in a world with others. Therefore, your security requires others to not need what you have. To protect yourself, the well-being of others is the essence of your own security. Call it "enlightened" self-interest if you like - in this case the enlightening realization that you breathe in what plants breathe out, unless your neighbor makes it un-breatheable.

Even the super-rich can't hire enough security to protect them from an ever-increasing number of poor and hungry forever. We are in this together. You are my burden, so start carrying.


Huh? hahaha NO EFFIN WAY! You are saying it's a damned ransom payment UP FRONT!

Hey, I have guns. I have been robbed, just 3 years ago.. in my own driveway. Took $3500 cash and prizes, at gun point. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..

I defend, I don't relenquish. New rules.

Now you screwed the whole thing up, I won't be paying ransom for ANYTHING. rofl... HOW CHILDISH.
The house I used to live in was burglarized 3 times, the last one I interrupted and to make a long story short, they went to jail. I was unarmed.  Lucky while not lucky.  Here's the thing - the level of crime is related to the overall well being of society.  The better the average person can do legitimately, the less they turn to crime.  A life of crime isn't something people generally seek out unless they feel they have no other options.  Not every criminal, some are just jerks or deranged, but the majority.  When the economic system is biased to concentrate the wealth at the top, the rest of us are pushed closer to the extremes.  What I fail to understand is why so many average people side with those who are working to  do just that?  You should WANT to help make sure that everyone does the best they can - the rising tide thing.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 23, 2011, 09:11:43 pm
Jay,

Now wait there.

Criminality is not a function of the 'well being of society' in a material sense, else India would be one of the places with the highest crime rate in the world - and in fact criminality there is quite low.

Criminality is related to GREED.
Criminality is related to the feeling of impunity.
(Also, Criminality is related to drug usage.)

If you live in a society where GREED is the main driving force, and where people feel that they can 'get away with it', you'll have a higher level of criminality than in a society with different values.

That's why Wall Street etc is full of corruption and as seen in recent years, high-level crime: _that_ society is purely fueled by greed and they feel they can get away with anything.

Criminality is also fueled by the feeling of "what have I got to lose", so in a society where material well-being is the main motivator, some people who know they won't get very far up the ladder by working honestly - because they hate work - will turn to crime; include there the lazy ones, the bullies and the ones who think they're smarter than the next guy.

Honest people only resort to crime (and petty ones) as an absolute last resort and not as a way of life...  look back at the Depression and see the number of impoverished people who committed petty crimes with the purpose of spending a couple of nights in jail so that they could get a few meals...

So, going back: a society where greed is the main theme will have greater crime rates than one that's based on less selfish views.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 24, 2011, 01:02:46 am
A commandment? Pointed at me? Wrong God.

Umm.. I have the guns for protection. I don't start a robbery. I end one.

Now, back to the threats about people without healthcare supplied for free... you must be joking. If not, then I have no idea where to go. I am not going to live in fear of people burning down my house because they didn't see a doctor.

That is bullshit.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 24, 2011, 01:40:26 am
Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 22:02

Umm.. I have the guns for protection. I don't start a robbery. I end one.

FAR more likely, you end.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 24, 2011, 02:06:52 am
Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 04:02

Wrong God.


Sorry. I'm monotheistic and I assumed you were too.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 24, 2011, 03:25:04 am
mgod wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 01:40

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 22:02

Umm.. I have the guns for protection. I don't start a robbery. I end one.

FAR more likely, you end.



Ahh, you want me to disarm?

No.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 24, 2011, 07:36:11 am
Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 06:25

mgod wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 01:40

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 22:02

Umm.. I have the guns for protection. I don't start a robbery. I end one.

FAR more likely, you end.



Ahh, you want me to disarm?

No.


Actually most of us would prefer if you stayed on-topic (health care) instead of veering into unproductive sidelines.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 24, 2011, 10:55:22 am
Ken,

2014 is far enough away that we can make adjustments.
First we need to work on curing Medicaid fraud.  That is huge.  Then just let the bill play out to see how the insurance companies react.  They are going to try to weasel out.  Instead of being outraged now why not see how things really go?

Barry
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 24, 2011, 11:28:43 am
One reason to not wait it out is waiting only makes things worse, for some of the reasons I mentioned.  Who is supposed to be treating all of us, where are they going to do it, and who is going to pay for it?

There will be a whole lot more of us come 2014 as well, as us (you and I) baby-boomers start retiring in droves.  As we both know, getting older ain't for wussies - we need a whole lot more personalized care than the 20-somethings do.

Another thing to consider is the pure economics of it.  More and more people are opting to forego social security (immediate government income) and taking personal tax deferred retirement accounts, that will not be available for taxation for 20-40 years from now.  Those are structured as actual pay reductions, so the taxable income of millions of people is lowered - yet further reducing the immediately available income that will be needed come 1 Jan 2014.  Doctors, nurses, et al are most likely not going to work for IOUs...

Another matter that must be resolved before then are the interstate differences between insurance policies.  Some states have policies that contradict the fed's plan.  If the doctors in some states obey state law, they are subject to losing whatever Medicaid/Medicare funds are still available, and possible punitive action from the feds - if they ignore the states and go along with the feds, they could get shut down, even jailed, by the states.  Its a lose-lose situation (abortion immediately comes to mind)

Granted, there are things in the current plan that are appealing - but given the fact that no one knew about them until after the fact is a slap in the face of everyone eligible to vote.

Shumer 'threatened' to force a senate vote on every element of the house bill if push comes to shove...if it comes down to this, I'm all for it; at least we'd know in detail what is what.  The link you provided (thanks, BTW) does not really talk about anything except the superficials - doesn't talk about the nitty-gritty of all this.

Sidebar - Barry, appreciate the conversational dialog, man.  Neither of us is likely to change either's mind, but at least some level of understanding is being exchanged.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 24, 2011, 11:51:02 am
Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 00:25

Ahh, you want me to disarm?

No.

No, mostly I don't care what you do. But if I had a say, first I'd rather you not kill or get killed (the latter is far more likely, the former will still put you in a world of shit), and second I'd like you to look around you and see you're not alone, and that the world is not your enemy.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 24, 2011, 03:35:55 pm
I hear ya buddy, I don't think the World is my enemy.

Back on the health wagon, I don't want to participate in things that I consider ill-conceived. I don't like other people making choices for me, and I should have some freedom to choose.

The coolest thing about that is I believe you should have that same thing.

I am not pissed off, just concerned, on some topics *very concerned*.

I still don't understand calling coverage of a pre-existing condition "insurance". That is impossible, and $1M worth should cost $1M, or I must be missing the trick that gets us there.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 24, 2011, 06:01:49 pm
Ken,

I agree.  We are probably both set in our minds, but the conversation has been good.  You bring up important points I'll have to look into as I have no additional information to offer.

I suppose I'll have to leave it at that.

Many thanks and all the best,

Barry
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 24, 2011, 06:11:25 pm
A couple of numbers jumped out at me from this page

  http://www.healthpaconline.net/health-care-statistics-in-the -united-states.htm

Now, they quote some numbers for 2005 from the National Center for Health Statistics.

Firstly they say

"In 2005, personal health care expenditures were paid by private health insurance 36%, federal government 35%, state and local governments 11% , and out-of-pocket payments 15%"

So that means that 46%, nearly half of the money came from government, and therefore I assume taxes?

Then they say

"The United States spends twice as much on health care per capita ($7,129) than any other country"

So, roughly speaking, it would seem you're already paying almost as much in taxes for healthcare as countries with a socialized system... which since they're about as healthy as you are (looking at the statistics), should be almost enough.

But then you're doubling it with private payments, and a load of you go bankrupt every year doing it.

Seems to me you're getting shafted, and the "I don't want to pay for anyone else" argument is not only selfish, it's misguided, you're already paying, you're just not getting value for money.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Bill_Urick on January 24, 2011, 07:14:48 pm
Been away for a bit. Busy weekend.
Apparently the name calling is in the past and the thread's back on topic.

Yea!

Looking forward to reading everyone's comments when time permits.

Carry on.

Razz
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 24, 2011, 08:34:31 pm
Bill,

I'd be happy to call you the names I didn't call you earlier.

Barry

Razz
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 24, 2011, 09:10:04 pm
Jon,

Your logic and analysis of the actual numbers just doesn't feel good. We are a very feely nation.

We're told day in and day out that we have the best health care system on the planet and that we are the envy of every other country. We would rather go to an early grave than find out that's not true. The deification of presidents who catastrophically increased the size of government and debt by small government crusaders is all you need to see.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: jonathan jetter on January 25, 2011, 12:22:03 am
Jon Hodgson wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 18:11



"The United States spends twice as much on health care per capita ($7,129) than any other country"

So, roughly speaking, it would seem you're already paying almost as much in taxes for healthcare as countries with a socialized system... which since they're about as healthy as you are (looking at the statistics), should be almost enough.

But then you're doubling it with private payments, and a load of you go bankrupt every year doing it.

Seems to me you're getting shafted, and the "I don't want to pay for anyone else" argument is not only selfish, it's misguided, you're already paying, you're just not getting value for money.


hi Jon-

i want to say that i agree almost entirely with your opinion on this, and with the source that you quoted.

i want though to reference our other discussion in the other thread where i mention not having any respect for the politician/CEO/billionaire-behind-the-scenes class.

would you not say that the machinations of the super-rich/super-powerful are most directly responsible for the health care mess you quoted above, and all in the name of enriching themselves to an even greater extent?  to me, at least, the two discussions are inextricably linked.....
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 25, 2011, 08:26:23 am
jonathan jetter wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 05:22

Jon Hodgson wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 18:11



"The United States spends twice as much on health care per capita ($7,129) than any other country"

So, roughly speaking, it would seem you're already paying almost as much in taxes for healthcare as countries with a socialized system... which since they're about as healthy as you are (looking at the statistics), should be almost enough.

But then you're doubling it with private payments, and a load of you go bankrupt every year doing it.

Seems to me you're getting shafted, and the "I don't want to pay for anyone else" argument is not only selfish, it's misguided, you're already paying, you're just not getting value for money.


hi Jon-

i want to say that i agree almost entirely with your opinion on this, and with the source that you quoted.

i want though to reference our other discussion in the other thread where i mention not having any respect for the politician/CEO/billionaire-behind-the-scenes class.

would you not say that the machinations of the super-rich/super-powerful are most directly responsible for the health care mess you quoted above, and all in the name of enriching themselves to an even greater extent?  to me, at least, the two discussions are inextricably linked.....


I think people give the ultra rich too much (dis)credit. It seems to me to be a deligation of responsibility more than anything, you just put the blame for all your ills on a few "super rich" people who aren't really human, because somehow they're all genetically programmed to want to extract the last cent out of everyone (and often it seems in ways that most economists would view as actually damaging to them, the logic of conspiracy is quite convoluted, but that's another discussion).

Your health system has thousands of people (if not millions) involved in it at one level or another who benefit from you being screwed, and you want to put all the blame on the guys at the very top of the income ladder?

One thing I always bear in mind when it comes to the subject of greed and the very rich was an interesting statement by Stelios, the founder of Easy Jet, and worth several hundred million. He said that once you passed a hundred million, unless you took to accumulating things like houses and yaghts, extra money made no real difference to your lifestyle.

You can already afford to do what you want, when you want, the best hotels, the best restaurants, the best of everything.

So, if you're that rich, getting extra money isn't really the aim, for some it's how they "keep score" in the business game, because they still take pleasure from the game, others will take up new ganes... Richard Branson likes trying to get records, Bill Gates set up a foundation.

Everyone is different, and everyone is the same, we're all people, with our own weaknesses and strengths. I've known a number of wealthy people, and they were different. For example two spring to mind, one seemed to achieve his success by being the ultimate shark, he could smell blood in the water from an ocean away, can't say I liked him much (but conversely having met his children I would say that not only was he a very good father, but they didn't share his predatory nature as far as I could see)... the other seemed to achieve his success by finding good people and rewarding them handsomely for what they did for him, so they stuck with him and he continued to profit (as did they).

So sure, there are people at the top who are a big part of the problem, but so are the people clinging to not wanting to pay for other people, or the people who will argue against it just because it's proposed by another party, or the insurance salesmen who'll sell you insurance that doesn't cover you properly because they make a better commission on that, or the doctors who prescribe medicins they get some sort of kickback from, etc etc.

It doesn't matter HOW rich or powerful you are, I challenge you to change British perception on whether healthcare should be available to all regardless of ability to pay. I think THAT is the important difference. Most of the world's healthcare systems are based on an ethos of shared care and shared responsibility. Yours is based on one of every man for himself, and then has a social part grafted on top of it because as a society you'd feel guilty if your selfishness meant people actually did get left to die on the street if they couldn't afford the ambulance fare.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 25, 2011, 09:15:23 am
Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 11:26


So sure, there are people at the top who are a big part of the problem, but so are the people clinging to not wanting to pay for other people, or the people who will argue against it just because it's proposed by another party, or the insurance salesmen who'll sell you insurance that doesn't cover you properly because they make a better commission on that, or the doctors who prescribe medicins they get some sort of kickback from, etc etc.(snip) Most of the world's healthcare systems are based on an ethos of shared care and shared responsibility. Yours is based on one of every man for himself, and then has a social part grafted on top of it because as a society you'd feel guilty if your selfishness meant people actually did get left to die on the street if they couldn't afford the ambulance fare.


QFE.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Gio on January 25, 2011, 09:16:32 am
+1, Jon.

I also disagree with the notion that the wealthy are by definition inherently evil.

(disclaimer: I'm not wealthy)
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 25, 2011, 09:20:20 am
Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 18:35


I still don't understand calling coverage of a pre-existing condition "insurance". That is impossible, and $1M worth should cost $1M, or I must be missing the trick that gets us there.


Semantics. Different interpretations. Nit-picking. Grasping at straws.

The only 'pre-existing condition' that should matter for a state health care system is: "were you born human?" if yes, you're covered, if not, tough luck.


And about health insurance (which is a completely different beast from state health care):

It's all about statistics, and we're talking science here, not politics; any self-respecting insurance company knows their risks and costs, and in the case of health insurance there's a wealth of information about average costs for each demographic and age group so it is not very difficult to assess how much one should pay for 'unlimited' coverage based on gender, occupation, location, ethnic factors and medical history.

It is not a shot in the dark.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 25, 2011, 09:25:26 am
Gio wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 12:16


I also disagree with the notion that the wealthy are by definition inherently evil.


Absolutely.

Many a wealthy person has gotten there by sheer effort and business acumen.

And those will never be hurt by better market regulation and other progressive and responsible policies.

And quite a few of them agree that there must be some degree of 'social consciousness' in a decent society.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 25, 2011, 09:46:45 am
YZ wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 08:20

Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 18:35


I still don't understand calling coverage of a pre-existing condition "insurance". That is impossible, and $1M worth should cost $1M, or I must be missing the trick that gets us there.


Semantics. Different interpretations. Nit-picking. Grasping at straws.

The only 'pre-existing condition' that should matter for a state health care system is: "were you born human?" if yes, you're covered, if not, tough luck.




Looking at it from the insurer's point of view: your company exists only as long as it can operate in the black.  Your company brings aboard 5 people (example only) that require such expensive treatments to keep them alive and with a quality of life reasonably expected by society that those costs essentially wipe out funds for 400 relatively healthy and routine patients.  

Enough of these types of cases, unfortunately, and insurance companies either must reduce coverage for the 'pre-existing' conditions, put a time limit before pre-existing pre-existing conditions are eligible for care, raise everyone's rates to offset the huge costs of caring for a statistically insignificant percentage of the pool, or go out of business (at which NO ONE has anything...)

It is a harsh and brutal reality, but a reality nonetheless.  Under a federal or state program, there are limited funds, generated only by taxes, fees, etc.  What percentage of those taxes are we as citizens willing to take from road maintenance, public safety, education, defense, food stamps/welfare, and the countless other programs to divert to health care?  

In many states, roads are close to impassable as is, without the additional expense of health care.  Law enforcement agencies and fire departments throughout the nation are closing/reducing forces to essentially become unable to complete their basic functions.  Etc...All because of money.

Again - I am fully supportive of some sort of health care system, but its gonna be tough to come up with one that doesn't come at the expense of everything else, especially our right to know what's in the any proposed package, a freedom to choose without IRS retaliation, and having a say so in whether it goes forward or not.  

Its not easy, but I truly believe it can be done.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 25, 2011, 10:11:25 am
First:

I have no idea of what 'Obamacare' is about and I'm not defending that particular policy;

Second: I'm talking about a State Health Care System, not a private insurance plan.

Being a State Health Care System implies that it is not-for-profit, so that part of your argument falls.

It also implies that preventive measures will be taken by the State, in the form of health campaigns, 'health ed' classes at public schools and so forth, in order to reduce the need for after-the-fact health care; 'an ounce of prevention...'

That would be a HUGE change to the current way of thinking in the USA regarding public health.

Simply 'patching up' what is already there - and not working - would not do.

The USA needs to do something it abhors doing: look at how other countries do it... then analyze the pros and cons of each system not in relation to what's in the USA now but in relation to the countries where each system is implemented, and have the guts to revamp the US health care status from the ground up.

As said before in this and the other 2 or 3 similar threads: other democratic countries have state health systems that work, there's no reason not to have something similar in the USA.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 25, 2011, 10:27:35 am
Fair enough...but keep in mind we are a federated republic, not a democracy, contrary to popular belief.

Prevention only goes so far, and cannot control genetics.

And, most American citizens are pretty well against nationalized anything.  If it works in other nations, cool...I just don't think a nationally mandated anything will work here.

Its not rocket science to know that eating an apple instead of a MickyD's fried apple pie is better for ya, but how many people opt for the latter.  You cannot force people to eat certain foods, and just about anyone with a pulse has already been educated as to proper diet and exercise - caring about it is a different matter.

Look at the war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war on illiteracy, and every other federally mandated program.  

Going back to funding - where would you like the extra money to come from?  Whether it is national or private, it still has to be paid for, and since we are already over $14 Trillion in debt, we can't just print more money, we can't borrow more, we can't issue IOUs, we can't ask people to work for free?  What is your solution to the funding, keeping in mind the very real debt burden we carry, to paying for national health care?

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 25, 2011, 10:49:16 am
Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 15:27

Going back to funding - where would you like the extra money to come from?  Whether it is national or private, it still has to be paid for, and since we are already over $14 Trillion in debt, we can't just print more money, we can't borrow more, we can't issue IOUs, we can't ask people to work for free?  What is your solution to the funding, keeping in mind the very real debt burden we carry, to paying for national health care?




You seem to be having a little trouble grasping this is seems...

You are already paying MORE than everybody else!!!

You don't need extra money to pay for national healthcare, you just need value for money.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 25, 2011, 10:52:41 am
Funding? Taxes. More specifically, a 'healthcare tax'.

And as with other individual taxes, the greater the net income of the taxed, the greater the tax.

Nothing new with that.

Employers would also pay this healthcare tax; healthier workers are more productive.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 25, 2011, 12:13:13 pm
Here is a graph based on data from the World Health Organization (2006-2007).  As Jon says, we don't appear to be getting the value for money we're spending.

And as for accepting people with "pre-existing conditions".  We all have them whether they have been diagnosed or not.  Insurance companies are in it for the money.  If there weren't money in this business (which by the way is another legalized form of gambling) they wouldn't do it.  Insurance companies just want the odds to remain fixed so "the house always wins".  Unfortunately, this is gambling with people's lives.  And profit should not be put ahead of people.


index.php/fa/16206/0/

Barry
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 25, 2011, 01:32:27 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 05:26

I think people give the ultra rich too much (dis)credit. It seems to me to be a deligation of responsibility more than anything, you just put the blame for all your ills on a few "super rich" people who aren't really human, because somehow they're all genetically programmed to want to extract the last cent out of everyone (and often it seems in ways that most economists would view as actually damaging to them, the logic of conspiracy is quite convoluted, but that's another discussion).

Your health system has thousands of people (if not millions) involved in it at one level or another who benefit from you being screwed, and you want to put all the blame on the guys at the very top of the income ladder?

One thing I always bear in mind when it comes to the subject of greed and the very rich was an interesting statement by Stelios, the founder of Easy Jet, and worth several hundred million. He said that once you passed a hundred million, unless you took to accumulating things like houses and yaghts, extra money made no real difference to your lifestyle.

You can already afford to do what you want, when you want, the best hotels, the best restaurants, the best of everything.

So, if you're that rich, getting extra money isn't really the aim, for some it's how they "keep score" in the business game, because they still take pleasure from the game, others will take up new ganes... Richard Branson likes trying to get records, Bill Gates set up a foundation.

Everyone is different, and everyone is the same, we're all people, with our own weaknesses and strengths. I've known a number of wealthy people, and they were different. For example two spring to mind, one seemed to achieve his success by being the ultimate shark, he could smell blood in the water from an ocean away, can't say I liked him much (but conversely having met his children I would say that not only was he a very good father, but they didn't share his predatory nature as far as I could see)... the other seemed to achieve his success by finding good people and rewarding them handsomely for what they did for him, so they stuck with him and he continued to profit (as did they).

So sure, there are people at the top who are a big part of the problem, but so are the people clinging to not wanting to pay for other people, or the people who will argue against it just because it's proposed by another party, or the insurance salesmen who'll sell you insurance that doesn't cover you properly because they make a better commission on that, or the doctors who prescribe medicins they get some sort of kickback from, etc etc.

It doesn't matter HOW rich or powerful you are, I challenge you to change British perception on whether healthcare should be available to all regardless of ability to pay. I think THAT is the important difference. Most of the world's healthcare systems are based on an ethos of shared care and shared responsibility. Yours is based on one of every man for himself, and then has a social part grafted on top of it because as a society you'd feel guilty if your selfishness meant people actually did get left to die on the street if they couldn't afford the ambulance fare.

Jon - this is one of the finest, clearest things I've ever read in this forum. Pleasure to know you.

DS
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: ScotcH on January 25, 2011, 04:47:46 pm
It's unfortunate, but it seems that discussing this topic with Americans is the same as trying to discuss gun rights and the constitution.  The fundamental mentalities are so deeply ingrained, that any change monumental enough to be effective, is simple inconceivable.

I have no idea what obamacare is about, but from what I've heard, it still deals with insurace, as a result is no change at all.  That is the #1 flaw right there, and I'd venture that it's the root of all that is wrong with US health care.  Insurance should be for additional coverage only, totally optional, and not for the basics of health care, and this change simply will never happen in the US.  The insurance corps will NOT allow it to happen.  Period.

Yes, I'm from Canada, and I shake my head often at these discussions.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 25, 2011, 04:53:26 pm
Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 07:27



And, most American citizens are pretty well against nationalized anything.  If it works in other nations, cool...I just don't think a nationally mandated anything will work here.





I disagree.  The vast majority of Americans are fine w/ Social Security and with Medicare.  Part of that may be that somehow they don't considered those nationalized. ("Keep your government hands off my Medicare!" signs come to mind.)
Polls have shown that over 60% of Americans support single-payer or the "public option" in health care.  When it is phrased as "government health care" the numbers go down, when it is phrased as "Medicare for all" the numbers go up.  The opposition to these systems pay a whole lot of money to determine the best phrasing to use to oppose any changes that could hurt their profits.  If there's one thing that successful businessmen know, it's marketing, which gives them a huge edge in framing the debate.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 25, 2011, 04:58:02 pm
We keep getting eaten in tiny little bites.

num-num
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 25, 2011, 05:15:24 pm
Yes we do - by industries that control the legislative process.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 25, 2011, 05:29:09 pm
Yeah, both ends, right?

Apple wants me to pay 30 cents more per track for 50 year old music than they asked just a few months ago.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Bubba#$%Kron on January 25, 2011, 05:58:16 pm
The sad truth is there has been more REAL debate here than congress did!!  Good thread though!!!!!
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 25, 2011, 06:47:56 pm
Tidewater wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 20:29

Yeah, both ends, right?

Apple wants me to pay 30 cents more per track for 50 year old music than they asked just a few months ago.


Well it's a free market, why are you complaining?
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 25, 2011, 06:55:49 pm
I also think Jon has spoken eloquently.

And it is true the U.S. has a huge case of "N.I.H" -- not National Institute of Health but rather "Not Invented Here".  There is an arrogance in this country and an entitlement I can't fathom (and yes I was born here and have lived my whole life here).

It's an odd blend of the "Pioneer Spirit" (I can do for myself and I want my nearest neighbor 15 miles away) and arrogance (what didn't we invent and what world war didn't we win and our economy is so huge you have to pay attention to us).  And "your rights are fine with me unless I decide they're not", because "that's my right".

The U.S. is not good with sharing -- yes we'll help you out with your natural disaster.  We like helping the underdog, but don't ask out of a sense of equality with us only out of a sense of need so we can feel good about ourselves helping you.

And we don't take criticism well -- "America: Love it or Leave it" is the common reply.

We want to be the world's policeman and big brother, but not necessarily your friend.  

So when it comes to learning the lessons others have to teach us we don't learn them very well at all because we dismiss the teacher as well as the circumstance.

We are not our own best friend.

Barry

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 25, 2011, 07:26:02 pm
Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 13:27

Fair enough...but keep in mind we are a federated republic, not a democracy, contrary to popular belief.

And _that_ is what's going to keep the USA from having a nation-wide government sponsored public healthcare system!

Quote:

Prevention only goes so far, and cannot control genetics.

Oh yes, if prevention is not good for _everything_ then say NO to prevention...  really?

Quote:

And, most American citizens are pretty well against nationalized anything.  If it works in other nations, cool...I just don't think a nationally mandated anything will work here.


The 3 threads here show that a good number of US citizens are FOR nationalized healthcare...
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Barry Hufker on January 25, 2011, 07:47:48 pm
Ayn Rand relied on Social Security and Possibly Medicare.

   Critics of Social Security and Medicare frequently invoke the words and ideals of author and philosopher Ayn Rand, one of the fiercest critics of federal insurance programs. But a little-known fact is that Ayn Rand herself collected Social Security. She may also have received Medicare benefits.

   An interview recently surfaced that was conducted in 1998 by the Ayn Rand Institute with a social worker who says she helped Rand and her husband, Frank O’Connor, sign up for Social Security and Medicare in 1974.

   Federal records obtained through a Freedom of Information act request confirm the Social Security benefits. A similar FOI request was unable to either prove or disprove the Medicare claim.

   Between December 1974 and her death in March 1982, Rand collected a total of $11,002 in monthly Social Security payments. O’Connor received $2,943 between December 1974 and his death in November 1979.[..]

   The couple registered for benefits shortly after Rand, a two-pack-a-day smoker, had surgery for lung cancer in the summer of 1974. Medicare had been enacted nine years earlier in the Social Security Act of 1965 to provide health insurance to those age 65 and older. [..]

   Rand herself called altruism a “basic evil” and referred to those who perpetuate the system of taxation and redistribution as “looters” and “moochers.” She wrote in her book “The Virtue of Selfishness” that accepting any government controls is “delivering oneself into gradual enslavement.” In a 1972 edition of her newsletter, she said:

       Morally and economically, the welfare state creates an ever accelerating downward pull. Morally, the chance to satisfy demands by force spreads the demands wider and wider, with less and less pretense at justification. Economically, the forced demands of one group create hardships for all others, thus producing an inextricable mixture of actual victims and plain parasites. Since need, not achievement, is held as the criterion of rewards, the government necessarily keeps sacrificing the more productive groups to the less productive, gradually chaining the top level of the economy, then the next level, then the next.[..]

   Rand often spoke of moral absolutism, saying “There can be no compromise on basic principles,” but the realities of aging and illness seem to have softened her stance. Social Security, and perhaps Medicare, allowed Rand and her husband to maintain their quality of life, remain in their apartment and live out their final years with dignity.


Copied from http://www.crooksandliars.com
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 25, 2011, 08:14:35 pm
And you want me to participate in a system I don't agree with as well.

You'd write that same thing after my death.

Very well. Do what you will.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 25, 2011, 08:38:00 pm
YZ, I can appreciate your enthusiasm...

but until the fundamental structure of the US system of government, as outlined by the framers of our Constitution is changed, that is the way it is.  Any criticism, however well intended, is a wasted endeavor, unless you can convince enough of the nation's power brokers to amend the Constitution.  Until then, we are a federated republic - end of line.

Sorry to break up a good plan, but that is the way it is.

And one other thing - it's probably a good idea to take quotes in context.  Of course prevention is a highly desirable approach, as I stated earlier.  In that same section, I stated that anyone who has attended 1st grade n any school in the US has been taught to eat good foods instead of junk foods, to exercise instead of setting inside playing video games, and so on.  That's why smoking is almost a sin, why no liquor ads are allowed on TV, etc.

See how well that's working?  Regardless of known consequences, people are gonna do what they want to do, and expect "the system" to fix them later.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Tidewater on January 25, 2011, 09:04:25 pm
YZ wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 18:47

Tidewater wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 20:29

Yeah, both ends, right?

Apple wants me to pay 30 cents more per track for 50 year old music than they asked just a few months ago.


Well it's a free market, why are you complaining?



You hear complaints. I am making statements.

I choose not to buy. That's the free market working. (another statement)

I am on strike. (another statement)
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 26, 2011, 01:37:59 am
Tidewater wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 17:14

And you want me to participate in a system I don't agree with as well.

You'd write that same thing after my death.

Very well. Do what you will.

Only if you ever allow yourself to take money from the government (i.e you and me) in any form whatsoever.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: crazydoc on January 26, 2011, 02:10:01 am
ScotcH wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 21:47

It's unfortunate, but it seems that discussing this topic with Americans is the same as trying to discuss gun rights and the constitution.  The fundamental mentalities are so deeply ingrained, that any change monumental enough to be effective, is simple inconceivable.

I have no idea what obamacare is about, but from what I've heard, it still deals with insurace, as a result is no change at all.  That is the #1 flaw right there, and I'd venture that it's the root of all that is wrong with US health care.  Insurance should be for additional coverage only, totally optional, and not for the basics of health care, and this change simply will never happen in the US.  The insurance corps will NOT allow it to happen.  Period.

Yes, I'm from Canada, and I shake my head often at these discussions.

This pretty much nails it. We Americans are unable to see that we live in a plutocracy where our legislators are shills for a corporate class, bought by campaign funding and payoffs from lobbyists. There is no other reason that a single payer plan was not even discussed, and the public option was never seriously considered.

Representative democracy in the US is a myth - our congress has been bought and paid for.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 26, 2011, 02:24:57 am
Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 23:38

Regardless of known consequences, people are gonna do what they want to do, and expect "the system" to fix them later.


1- What 'system'?

2- I doubt that drunkards/junkies/heavy smokers are expecting to be 'taken care of'.

3- If the guy paid a private health insurance plan, then he has every right to expect treatment as contracted; if the insurance company accepted him as a client and he proves to be non-profitable, tough luck for them...  it is a business and it has risks.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 26, 2011, 08:00:22 am
YZ wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 01:24

Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 23:38

Regardless of known consequences, people are gonna do what they want to do, and expect "the system" to fix them later.


1- What 'system'?

2- I doubt that drunkards/junkies/heavy smokers are expecting to be 'taken care of'.

3- If the guy paid a private health insurance plan, then he has every right to expect treatment as contracted; if the insurance company accepted him as a client and he proves to be non-profitable, tough luck for them...  it is a business and it has risks.



You really don't know how it works here, do you?  For example, in Texas

1.  Every community of any size has implemented into it's charter things like indigent care, emergency services for homeless/illegals, etc.  These are state funded, often supplemented with matching federal funds, and are often better levels of care than those with basic insurance.

2.  You can doubt all you like - there are waiting lists of to get into rehab hospitals all across the nation, usually at tax payer or religious/non profit group expense if the inbound patient doesn't have funding, or doesn't qualify for medicare

3.  As it currently stands, because of politic, illegals, indigents, etc often get a higher level care than those with purchased insurance.  No one except the special interests like this except the special interests - theirs in truly a free ride.

Really, man...you might research what the facts of each state are before making blanket assumptions.  Now you can continue to nit pick the minutia of what - if scenarios, or try and understand the our health care is not simply a matter of the national government waving its magic wand and providing for everyone overnight.  We have 50 individual states that would like to (and have the Constitution authority) to have a say so in the matter as well - local governments also have a right to say how their mandated contributions are being spent.

Then there is the Constitutional clause of federal mandate nullification - a whole different can of worms.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 26, 2011, 08:17:03 am
Wireline wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 13:00

YZ wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 01:24

Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 23:38

Regardless of known consequences, people are gonna do what they want to do, and expect "the system" to fix them later.


1- What 'system'?

2- I doubt that drunkards/junkies/heavy smokers are expecting to be 'taken care of'.

3- If the guy paid a private health insurance plan, then he has every right to expect treatment as contracted; if the insurance company accepted him as a client and he proves to be non-profitable, tough luck for them...  it is a business and it has risks.



You really don't know how it works here, do you?  For example, in Texas

1.  Every community of any size has implemented into it's charter things like indigent care, emergency services for homeless/illegals, etc.  These are state funded, often supplemented with matching federal funds, and are often better levels of care than those with basic insurance.

2.  You can doubt all you like - there are waiting lists of to get into rehab hospitals all across the nation, usually at tax payer or religious/non profit group expense if the inbound patient doesn't have funding, or doesn't qualify for medicare

3.  As it currently stands, because of politic, illegals, indigents, etc often get a higher level care than those with purchased insurance.  No one except the special interests like this except the special interests - theirs in truly a free ride.

Really, man...you might research what the facts of each state are before making blanket assumptions.  Now you can continue to nit pick the minutia of what - if scenarios, or try and understand the our health care is not simply a matter of the national government waving its magic wand and providing for everyone overnight.  We have 50 individual states that would like to (and have the Constitution authority) to have a say so in the matter as well - local governments also have a right to say how their mandated contributions are being spent.

Then there is the Constitutional clause of federal mandate nullification - a whole different can of worms.


You seem to be more concerned with what other people are getting than with what you're not.

Even if you don't give a damn about anyone else, homeless people getting medical care isn't your big problem (we manage to cover them here in Europe, and we're still paying less than you are), your big problem is that your system isn't giving YOU the care you pay for.

Of course it's wrong that people who contribute nothing get better care than those on basic insurance... but not because it's wrong that they get care, because it's wrong that the basic insurance doesn't provide the same cover.

In fact as far as I'm concerned the only difference how much you pay should make should be in extras, not fundamentals. You need a heart operation? You're covered, whatever happens, by a fully capable surgeon in a clean hospital within a reasonable timeframe, but if you want doctor X next month and a private room with your own nurse, well that costs extra and unless you bought the triple platinum plus cover, you'll have to pay for it out of your own pocket.

As for the adminstrative and political issues with local government, state government and federal all fighting their patch, well that's all surmountable if you (as a nation) want it to be... just imagine where you'd be as a country if the Founding Fathers had had the attitude that you couldn't change the status quo. People talk about the constitution like it's some holy scripture carved in stone tablets... you've had 27 amendments to it over time as people changed or expanded their minds about what was fundamentally important.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 26, 2011, 08:32:41 am
You are either not readying what I am saying, or I am not saying it clearly.

I believe a change in the status quo is a must.  I just don't think the European system is the answer to our situation, as we have certain circumstances that WILL not change, regardless of Europe's opinion.  Texas is not New York, and no amount of wishing will ever change that.  State's rights is very precious to the majority of us, and is not likely to go away without some violent changes (that was done once already)

You can call us stubborn, stupid, whatever - that's your right and opinion.  One of the reasons I am as resistant to the European model is the same I am resistant to the model enacted by the current President - you are essentially jamming it down my throat, insisting I am a dumbass if I don't go along with your way of thinking.

Not a good way to make friends and influence people.

Be critical all you want - matters not; but until the citizenry of the US decide what is best for us, have a clear understand of what it is and what it does in clear and open terms (which no one does), and the majority of our elected spokespersons agree to it, discussion is moot.  Which has been my (and most conservatives regardless of party) position all along - instead of "you have to pass it to find out what's in it," lets look at it with our sleeves rolled up and see exactly what it is, what it isn't, and go from there.

It is pretty hard to see this point of view when on the attack all time, wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 26, 2011, 08:35:59 am
No, I don't know how it works where you live.

And I never said I did; I go based on what your fellow countrymen say here and I truly appreciate the insights you're offering.

And if a completely destitute person has access to better healthcare than a person who's barely making enough - or even better off than that, then there IS something wrong...  a society shouldn't wait until a citizen reaches the gutter to help him.

You said that the very poor have, in Texas, better healthcare than someone who can only afford the most basic health insurance; then the interests of the basic health _insurers_ seem to be well taken care of...  the guy is basically forced into the basic _private_ plan, one that will drain his money but won't offer much coverage, thus reducing his net income, restricting his liberties - he can only go where his plan allows - and keeps the citizen from being able to save enough, since he is paying the premium, to create a cushion for the eventuality of a serious health need.

So the guy in the example is:

-Paying from his state and federal taxes for the healthcare of others;
-Paying privately for a poor private health insurance plan;
-Not eligible for neither public nor privately-funded free healthcare because he has the basic private health insurance plan;
- Not able to save for hard times because he has to pay his insurance.

And as demonstrated by others in the 3 threads about healthcare here, the government of the USA is spending more per capita on healthcare than other countries do with their more comprehensive public systems PLUS the average citizen is spending about 16% of his income on deficient private health care.

This does not look good to me.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 26, 2011, 08:59:00 am
Wireline wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 13:32

You are either not readying what I am saying, or I am not saying it clearly.

I believe a change in the status quo is a must.  I just don't think the European system is the answer to our situation, as we have certain circumstances that WILL not change, regardless of Europe's opinion.  Texas is not New York, and no amount of wishing will ever change that.  State's rights is very precious to the majority of us, and is not likely to go away without some violent changes (that was done once already)

You can call us stubborn, stupid, whatever - that's your right and opinion.  One of the reasons I am as resistant to the European model is the same I am resistant to the model enacted by the current President - you are essentially jamming it down my throat, insisting I am a dumbass if I don't go along with your way of thinking.

Not a good way to make friends and influence people.

Be critical all you want - matters not; but until the citizenry of the US decide what is best for us, have a clear understand of what it is and what it does in clear and open terms (which no one does), and the majority of our elected spokespersons agree to it, discussion is moot.  Which has been my (and most conservatives regardless of party) position all along - instead of "you have to pass it to find out what's in it," lets look at it with our sleeves rolled up and see exactly what it is, what it isn't, and go from there.

It is pretty hard to see this point of view when on the attack all time, wouldn't you agree?


There is no "European System", different countries use different systems.

What there is, is a "Most of the rest of the world Attitude", which is that universal healthcare is a fundamental responsibility of civilized society.

So the various systems are built on that basis.

None of them is perfect, but ironically all of them are cheaper than yours.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 26, 2011, 09:05:04 am
It isn't good...and that's why we need some serious attention to the system.

But, we are working on it. Once we get it figured out, its gonna be good, but its gonna require some give from everyone.

Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 26, 2011, 09:29:25 am
three thumbs up to that!  - yes, my last hand surgery didn't go as planned  Smile
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: jonathan jetter on January 26, 2011, 10:30:24 am
Wireline wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 09:05

It isn't good...and that's why we need some serious attention to the system.

But, we are working on it. Once we get it figured out, its gonna be good, but its gonna require some give from everyone.




i really don't think it's going to be good.  the people who run the insurance companies, and the people who run the finance companies, and the defense contracting companies, and the oil companies, and a few other industries, all have a vested interest in it never being good.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/26614998/detail.html

(i don't know how to stick a title in the URL, but the article is about an insurance company dropping a vietnam vet for being 2 cents short on his payment)
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: YZ on January 26, 2011, 10:42:26 am
Note about private health insurance here:

The insurance company has to send you a '35-day late notice' if you're late on a payment, and service is interrupted if you get more than 60 days late.

BUT service re-starts the moment you get up to date on your payments.

It's the law here.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 26, 2011, 11:43:48 am
Wireline wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 05:32

One of the reasons I am as resistant to the European model is the same I am resistant to the model enacted by the current President - you are essentially jamming it down my throat, insisting I am a dumbass if I don't go along with your way of thinking.

Ken, is this not true of ALL federal programs?

For instance, I deeply object to our military system and its devastating effect on our finances, our education system and our populace. I'm 100% with Ike on this.

Can I opt out?
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 26, 2011, 11:46:00 am
Jon Hodgson wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 05:59

There is no "European System", different countries use different systems.

What there is, is a "Most of the rest of the world Attitude", which is that universal healthcare is a fundamental responsibility of civilized society.

So the various systems are built on that basis.

None of them is perfect, but ironically all of them are cheaper than yours.

Not so ironic. Because of the way our country "works", pretty much everything except gasoline and high-fructose corn syrup is more expensive here.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 26, 2011, 11:52:15 am
crazydoc wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 23:10

This pretty much nails it. We Americans are unable to see that we live in a plutocracy where our legislators are shills for a corporate class, bought by campaign funding and payoffs from lobbyists. There is no other reason that a single payer plan was not even discussed, and the public option was never seriously considered.

Representative democracy in the US is a myth - our congress has been bought and paid for.

FWIW - for more than 40 years there is a guy who has been very precisely describing this gradual degradation. And both sides vilify him so that no one pays attention.

When he ran for President in 2000, the Dems made up figures to make it seem that he cost them the election. And when you give a Dem the actual numbers, they object because it feels better to blame him instead of the lame Dem campaign. He probably wouldn't have made a great Pres, but he can't be bought.

Pogo was right, of course. My only comfort is that we aren't uniquely stupid.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Wireline on January 26, 2011, 11:56:51 am
Not really.  The one example that jumps out from memory is in Germany (when I lived there, anyway) was every male was required to spend 18 months in the military.  We don't have a national conscription anymore.

(Note that this may have and probably has changed)

Way OT - but we have certain freedoms of movement, freedoms of language (do European schools bend over backward to teach classes in other languages?  I took two courses at a local university, and had to bone up on German REAL quick)...the list goes on forever.

Plus, as far as I know, there aren't a different set of laws in Hesse than there are in Bavaria - they are pretty well all national laws, and as you know, we do things a tad differently here.

Again, round holes, square pegs.  They are both right, but one size does not fit the other.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 26, 2011, 01:39:38 pm
Wireline wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 08:56

Not really.  The one example that jumps out from memory is in Germany (when I lived there, anyway) was every male was required to spend 18 months in the military.  We don't have a national conscription anymore.

(Note that this may have and probably has changed)

Way OT - but we have certain freedoms of movement, freedoms of language (do European schools bend over backward to teach classes in other languages?  I took two courses at a local university, and had to bone up on German REAL quick)...the list goes on forever.

Plus, as far as I know, there aren't a different set of laws in Hesse than there are in Bavaria - they are pretty well all national laws, and as you know, we do things a tad differently here.

Again, round holes, square pegs.  They are both right, but one size does not fit the other.



There is an assumption made by most Americans that health care in Europe (& the entire civilized world except the U.S.) is all centralized, and of course the U.S. can't have something like that (except for Social Security & Medicare).  But really there are all sorts of systems, and some are very de-centralized.  One example is Sweden, where there is tons of local control over health care: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Sweden

If the U.S. truly wanted the best system, we'd thoroughly study all the existing ones & come up with a hybrid system that would work best for us.  The problem, as stated before, is that the goal of the U.S. government is a system that is best for big money interests, not a system that is best for the citizens.  And by that measure we do have the best, most profitable system in the world, unfortunately.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 26, 2011, 01:42:40 pm
This is what always come to mind with topics like this:

The Nine Nations of North America
http://bigthink.com/ideas/21226

As to European schools. I recall that my cousins in Budapest, who were high-school age in the 60s, spoke 6 languages each.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: mgod on January 26, 2011, 01:44:52 pm
DarinK wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 10:39

If the U.S. truly wanted the best system, we'd thoroughly study all the existing ones & come up with a hybrid system that would work best for us.  The problem, as stated before, is that the goal of the U.S. government is a system that is best for big money interests, not a system that is best for the citizens.  And by that measure we do have the best, most profitable system in the world, unfortunately.

Its only actually profitable if people play ball by dying before becoming expensive. Payment for costly bills is the last thing a shareholder wants to see.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: DarinK on January 26, 2011, 01:45:21 pm
A system that could be acceptable to American may be something like the system in Switzerland, where private insurance companies handle everything, with some government requirements.  Everyone must purchase insurance, the companies must offer a basic plan with certain guarantees, that basic plan must be non-profit (profit is made on additional plans/services), the basic plan must charge the same for anyone, regardless of age/health, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland

It sounds like a good version of Obama's bad plan (which I think is a terrible giveaway to the insurance companies).
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: jimlongo on January 26, 2011, 05:16:03 pm
Regarding nationally run programs and state's rights, etc.,

Canada is also a federation of provinces.  Each province runs HealthCare in their own way.  The main federal points of insistence are transportability, coverage in other provinces while travelling, and minimum standard provisions.

However, the federal government is involved in financing the whole system through a system of transfer payments, much like MLB, the NFL and NBA, which I guess could all be considered forms of communism.
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: Samc on February 07, 2011, 08:12:55 pm
I lived in the US for most of my life and have lived in France for the last 10 years.  I have had the unfortunate experience of needing medical treatment of various levels of seriousness, from basic checkup to spinal surgery.  I always had medical insurance when I lived in the States (paid through the nose for it), but  after experiencing the medical system here I do not ever want to go back to the previous system...ever.

I have the freedom to see any doctor or go to any medical facility in the country whenever I want to, and I can fill my prescription at any pharmacy in the country.  Medical procedures do not require the approval of a third party and I have never been put on a waiting list for any procedure.

This type of medical care is neither special or exclusive, it is available to every resident in the country.  I don't really care if the laws that allow this type of care is regional or national, what matters to me is that I (and everyone else here) are are guaranteed first class medical care when we need it.  I don't want to worry about bankrupting my family if I get sick.

Oh yeah, kids here have the right to learn one or more foreign languages if they want to, in fact, quiet a few of them are fluent in several languages...  
Title: Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
Post by: ScotcH on February 09, 2011, 03:06:09 pm
Samc wrote on Mon, 07 February 2011 20:12

I lived in the US for most of my life and have lived in France for the last 10 years.  I have had the unfortunate experience of needing medical treatment of various levels of seriousness, from basic checkup to spinal surgery.  I always had medical insurance when I lived in the States (paid through the nose for it), but  after experiencing the medical system here I do not ever want to go back to the previous system...ever.

I have the freedom to see any doctor or go to any medical facility in the country whenever I want to, and I can fill my prescription at any pharmacy in the country.  Medical procedures do not require the approval of a third party and I have never been put on a waiting list for any procedure.

This type of medical care is neither special or exclusive, it is available to every resident in the country.  I don't really care if the laws that allow this type of care is regional or national, what matters to me is that I (and everyone else here) are are guaranteed first class medical care when we need it.  I don't want to worry about bankrupting my family if I get sick.

Oh yeah, kids here have the right to learn one or more foreign languages if they want to, in fact, quiet a few of them are fluent in several languages...  


Ha!  Enjoy your socialist lifestyle, you commie!


Wink