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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => R/E/P Saloon => Topic started by: bblackwood on April 07, 2010, 05:39:44 pm

Title: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: bblackwood on April 07, 2010, 05:39:44 pm
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view/20100407ne arly_half_of_us_households_escape_fed_income_tax/

Unreal.

I'm speechless.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: RMoore on April 07, 2010, 07:25:19 pm
From the same article:

The vast majority of people who escape federal income taxes still pay other taxes, including federal payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare, and excise taxes on gasoline, aviation, alcohol and cigarettes. Many also pay state or local taxes on sales, income and property.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: compasspnt on April 07, 2010, 08:59:45 pm
The result is a tax system that exempts almost half the country from paying for programs that benefit everyone, including national defense, public safety, infrastructure and education. It is a system in which the top 10 percent of earners — households making an average of $366,400 in 2006 — paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government.

The bottom 40 percent, on average, make a profit from the federal income tax, meaning they get more money in tax credits than they would otherwise owe in taxes. For those people, the government sends them a payment.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: el duderino on April 07, 2010, 09:58:32 pm
ah the product of tax cuts.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 08, 2010, 12:30:33 am
Having read the article, it strikes me the author has an agenda.

It is the word "escape" or the phrase "escape Federal income tax".  When what it means is they don't owe money.  They didn't "escape" anything.  If anyone gets a refund on the money they prepaid the government in the form of taxes, this article makes them sound as if they cheated the government or somehow "escaped" the taxes.

Legitimately, some people make very little and so various deductions, credits, etc. negate the amount of income tax they pay.  But there is a huge difference between people who are having taxes waived and corporations who have off-shore accounts and manipulate the tax system.

I'm getting a refund this year.  Am I evil (OK, separate debatable question) or have I "escaped" Federal income tax?  I didn't escape anything.  The Feds had my money for 12 months, earning interest on it and now I'm getting a portion back.  Gee, I guess I escaped earning interest on my money...

I'd take this article with a boulder of salt.

Barry

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: danickstr on April 08, 2010, 12:49:57 am
Let's not forget that many retirement ready households lost a lot of their investment value which affects their bottom line on income earned.

Also, the 73% number misleads people to think that the rich pay 73% income tax.  Most pay only 15% capital gains and therefore a smaller percentage than the upper middle class who pay the full 36% on earned income.

Who would you rather be, a head of household getting 1800 a month on unemployment or welfare, or a guy making 30 grand a month, and paying 15% of it to Uncle Sam?
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 08, 2010, 01:06:24 am

You guys are reading carefully, understanding what the numbers actually mean, etc. That takes all the fun out of it.

I like the part where the authors try their best to make it look like the lower 40% earners are all getting a nice fat check from the government beyond their normal paycheck.

LOTS more fun.


Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Podgorny on April 08, 2010, 09:17:43 am
Not to throw a wrench in all this but...

Most of us don't have any source of income.  Only wages.


Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: ssltech on April 08, 2010, 09:22:23 am
My missus is a source of outgo... does that count for anything?

-Oh, and can I get Uncle Sam to cover that?
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 08, 2010, 10:48:14 am
Podgorny wrote on Thu, 08 April 2010 14:17

Not to throw a wrench in all this but...

Most of us don't have any source of income.  Only wages.





Not to throw a dictionary into all this but...

Wages are income
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: MDM, on April 08, 2010, 12:15:59 pm
compasspnt wrote on Wed, 07 April 2010 19:59

The result is a tax system that exempts almost half the country from paying for programs that benefit everyone, including national defense, public safety, infrastructure and education. It is a system in which the top 10 percent of earners — households making an average of $366,400 in 2006 — paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government.

The bottom 40 percent, on average, make a profit from the federal income tax, meaning they get more money in tax credits than they would otherwise owe in taxes. For those people, the government sends them a payment.





nobody has ever proved that income tax goes to pay for programs that benefit everyone.

I say the less income tax the better.

don't fool yourselves into thinking that more taxes will solve anything.. the government (not only USA) spends way more than it has and more than taxes could pay for.

even if there were no taxes, the government would simply spend the money they don't have, creating indirect taxation though inflation.

has anyone ever audited the IRS?

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Podgorny on April 08, 2010, 12:34:48 pm
Jon,

income |ˈinˌkəm; ˈi ng-|
noun
money received, esp. on a regular basis, for work or through investments


wage |wāj|
noun (usu. wages)
• a fixed regular payment, typically paid on a daily or weekly basis, made by an employer to an employee, esp. to a manual or unskilled worker
• the part of total production that is the return to labor as earned income as distinct from the remuneration received by capital as unearned income.


The point being that there are those who firmly believe that income tax was intended for those who made money from investments as opposed to those who earned a wage.



Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 08, 2010, 12:42:00 pm
Podgorny wrote on Thu, 08 April 2010 17:34

Jon,

income |ˈinˌkəm; ˈi ng-|
noun
money received, esp. on a regular basis, for work or through investments


wage |wāj|
noun (usu. wages)
• a fixed regular payment, typically paid on a daily or weekly basis, made by an employer to an employee, esp. to a manual or unskilled worker
• the part of total production that is the return to labor as earned income as distinct from the remuneration received by capital as unearned income.


The point being that there are those who firmly believe that income tax was intended for those who made money from investments as opposed to those who earned a wage.






Thanks, you've just proven my point with those definitions.

Wages are income. (In this case money received for work)

Income is not necessarily wages.

As for what income taxes were originally intended for, it's fairly irrelevant, what matters is what they're intended for today and more importantly that they're a legal requirement. Income tax in the UK started to pay for a war, can we now say we're not liable for income tax because that war ended? No.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 08, 2010, 12:52:09 pm
Podgorny wrote on Thu, 08 April 2010 17:34

The point being that there are those who firmly believe that income tax was intended for those who made money from investments as opposed to those who earned a wage.



The wording of the USA's first income tax statute (1861) is very clear... ALL ncome, including "from any profession, trade or vocation".

The income tax of 1894 has the same wording.

So that belief would appear to be wishful thinking, since your laws never appear to have excluded wages from the calculation of income for taxation purposes.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: danickstr on April 08, 2010, 10:23:12 pm
I am going to start a reality TV show called "The Semantics Police".
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: PookyNMR on April 09, 2010, 01:55:52 am
Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 09, 2010, 06:19:22 am
PookyNMR wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 06:55

Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?


An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: bblackwood on April 09, 2010, 10:10:14 am
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 05:19

An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?



I'd be interested in seeing how many of those who think those who are able to 'afford' more taxes refuse their own tax refunds or itemization/deductions wrt to their own taxes. You know, put their money where their mouth is.

I suspect the answer is pretty close to zero.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 09, 2010, 10:25:19 am
bblackwood wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 15:10

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 05:19

An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?



I'd be interested in seeing how many of those who think those who are able to 'afford' more taxes refuse their own tax refunds or itemization/deductions wrt to their own taxes. You know, put their money where their mouth is.

I suspect the answer is pretty close to zero.


I think you may have missed a couple of words out there, because it's not quite making sense to me grammatically.

Refusing a refund on moral grounds would only make sense if you believed the tax system was skewed unfairly in your favour.

My point is, the top 50% of earners pay 97% of the tax... but if they're receiving somewhere near 97% of the income, this would make perfect sense (we know for sure that they're receiving considerably more than half of the income).
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: bblackwood on April 09, 2010, 10:32:12 am
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 09:25

I think you may have missed a couple of words out there, because it's not quite making sense to me grammatically.

Refusing a refund on moral grounds would only make sense if you believed the tax system was scewed unfairly in your favour.

I think it reads fine, kinda badly worded but I think the point is clear.

Restated, on moral grounds, do those that feel that 'he who can afford it should pay more' are doing so or are they getting every penny back they can?
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 09, 2010, 10:41:13 am
bblackwood wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 15:32

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 09:25

I think you may have missed a couple of words out there, because it's not quite making sense to me grammatically.

Refusing a refund on moral grounds would only make sense if you believed the tax system was scewed unfairly in your favour.

I think it reads fine, kinda badly worded but I think the point is clear.


If you hadn't missed out the "should pay more" part (which you used in your second post), then it would read fine.... I thought that was what you meant, but couldn't be sure.
Quote:


Restated, on moral grounds, do those that feel that 'he who can afford it should pay more' are doing so or are they getting every penny back they can?

Well again, this would only make sense if they thought that the tax system was treating them unneccessarily generously... just because someone thinks that those who can afford more should pay more, it doesn't follow that they should feel they are in the group who should pay more.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 09, 2010, 10:52:03 am
This page is interesting...

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

It shows that the federal income tax rate is effectively progressive from an average of 3% for the 50% of households earning the least, to 22% for the 1% of households earning the most.

We can also calucuate that the lower 50% earned an average of about 14k a year each, which if we assume that a good chunk of them will have two or more people in the household, and accept these figures for the poverty line

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

Puts a lot of them as being officially poor.

Another interesting figure, the total income (as calculated for federal income tax purposes) of the top 0.1% is approximately the same as for the bottom 50%.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: PookyNMR on April 09, 2010, 11:56:34 am
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 08:52

Another interesting figure, the total income (as calculated for federal income tax purposes) of the top 0.1% is approximately the same as for the bottom 50%.


I highly suspected something like this.

Of course, you won't see this kind of critical analysis in an activistic news report.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Berolzheimer on April 09, 2010, 03:14:14 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 03:19

PookyNMR wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 06:55

Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?


An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?




Another interesting figure to see would be, what percentage of their actual income- including capital gains- the top 1% & 5% are paying in taxes, compared to the middle 5% or 10%.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: yhomas on April 09, 2010, 07:15:29 pm
Berolzheimer wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 20:14

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 03:19

PookyNMR wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 06:55

Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?


An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?




Another interesting figure to see would be, what percentage of their actual income- including capital gains- the top 1% & 5% are paying in taxes, compared to the middle 5% or 10%.


These figures are not that hard to come up with--they are found in the same previously posted link:  http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The AGI numbers include capital gains. http://www.fairmark.com/rothira/modagi.htm

"
Q: Are capital gains included in AGI?

A: Yes. For example, if you have a $20,000 capital gain, it will increase your AGI (and your modified AGI) by $20,000. This is true even for long-term capital gains that are subject to special tax rates.
"



-- The top 1% (AGI over $410k) pay a federal income tax on their AGI (which includes capital gains) to the tune of ~22.45%.  The top 5% (AGI over $160k) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of ~20.53%.  
-- The top 25% (AGI over $66.5k) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of 16%.  
-- Those in top 26% to 50% (that is the top 50% minus the top 25%) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of 7%.  
-- The bottom 50% pay ~3%.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: danickstr on April 09, 2010, 10:41:45 pm
so if I make 10 mil a year, I am paying 2.2 mil in taxes, but I have 7.8 mil to blow on yachts, pretty girls and cocaine.  heyahooooo!  Sign me up for that guy's high tax burden.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Berolzheimer on April 09, 2010, 11:15:48 pm
yhomas wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 16:15

Berolzheimer wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 20:14

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 03:19

PookyNMR wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 06:55

Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?


An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?




Another interesting figure to see would be, what percentage of their actual income- including capital gains- the top 1% & 5% are paying in taxes, compared to the middle 5% or 10%.


These figures are not that hard to come up with--they are found in the same previously posted link:  http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The AGI numbers include capital gains. http://www.fairmark.com/rothira/modagi.htm

"
Q: Are capital gains included in AGI?

A: Yes. For example, if you have a $20,000 capital gain, it will increase your AGI (and your modified AGI) by $20,000. This is true even for long-term capital gains that are subject to special tax rates.
"



-- The top 1% (AGI over $410k) pay a federal income tax on their AGI (which includes capital gains) to the tune of ~22.45%.  The top 5% (AGI over $160k) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of ~20.53%.  
-- The top 25% (AGI over $66.5k) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of 16%.  
-- Those in top 26% to 50% (that is the top 50% minus the top 25%) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of 7%.  
-- The bottom 50% pay ~3%.




Those are the applicable rates, but the question is how much do they actually pay after deductions etc?  That's the only fair way to look at it, as the "Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax" figure is also after deductions.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: grantis on April 10, 2010, 12:04:27 am
danickstr wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 21:41

so if I make 10 mil a year, I am paying 2.2 mil in taxes, but I have 7.8 mil to blow on yachts, pretty girls and cocaine.  heyahooooo!  Sign me up for that guy's high tax burden.


Where'd you get those numbers?  that's not anywhere near correct.

Under new tax law (IE, the new healthcare law, etc), if you made 10mil, you'd be paying 5.9mil in tax.

Unless you came up with a bunch of write offs.

My problem with all of this is....the average american work week has been hovering about 34 hours a week for the last decade or so (down as low as 31 during recession).

If 50% of america really is "poor" by definition, it's nobody's fault but their own.  Get up off your lazy but and do something about it instead of working a pathetic 31 hours a week.  this country's sense of entitlement is sickening, and it's the lawyer who spends 90 hours a week in his office EARNING 500k a year who has to pay for all of that sheer laziness.

i'm PAYING my dues by working my ass off for poverty level pay in hopes that it will someday lead to something bigger and better, (and more lucrative).  how sad that i will be continuing to pay dues when that day comes, just in a much more pocket burning kind of way.

although it all makes sense.  why work your ass off when you've already got a free meal ticket?  i guess 50% of america is ok with mediocrity.

there, i said it, and my tongue was only halfway in my cheek.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 12:56:20 am

Well, if one feels need to pick up a spear in the first place ...

(which, for all proclamations of "I'm  doing great here!" might
indicate otherwise, ... )


It is arguably easier to throw the spears at people stuck in the valley below than to aim them up hill at those well protected and well positioned to answer quickly.




Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Berolzheimer on April 10, 2010, 02:12:33 am
Grant-

ugh.

I don't even know where to start.  I was going to start by saying that post is just asanine, but I don't want to start a flame war with you.  
But it does show a bit of a lack of perspective.

I know you're young, I hope that with some more life experience you'll grow out of it.

I have to go now, more tomorrow.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 02:35:10 am

Ignore please, Berolz,


Just another anticipating his own failure and setting it all up to blame on others, be it the government or whomever.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 03:01:46 am
.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on April 10, 2010, 06:27:35 am
A little confused were we trying to un "tip" or "tip" the proof that life is not fair        did anyone find fair or an alternative to force?

If this is disheartening or confusing let quick and right death outrace our sun to become a red Giant and as best as you can time your mutual death to feel as one.

edit:  not that it has been initiated for use of the the integral "force" BUT I may beat it to the punch___________beating less to its only match____until all the matter collects again as magnets do not ruin tapes x forgot about but  so called " years" after that  perhaps all enemies and/z friends shall be in one place ////all collected again and tight it may be,  though we are often wrong but ~if it is a big bang it is then  - a singularity that WE will share again I have often said a short sighted slight that the magic may be in the matter(the magic is in the matter)  and let us/you do what we/u might    as clubs  and collections are often otherwise. one can give more than what one most at least  one might postulate young magnetism in its fragile might of most
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 10, 2010, 08:06:54 am
grantis wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 05:04

My problem with all of this is....the average american work week has been hovering about 34 hours a week for the last decade or so (down as low as 31 during recession).


There's a clue for you in those numbers...

The reason the average working week drops during recession, is there is less work AVAILABLE during a recession, which indicates that the 34 hour figure is also contrained not by the willingness of the workforce, but by the availability of work.

In fact if you look at the figures of the bureau of labor statistics, you'll see that people who actually have jobs are on averahe working a pretty traditional 40ish hour week

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t04.htm
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 09:48:55 am
seedyunderbelly.com wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 06:27

A little confused were we trying to un "tip" or "tip" the proof that life is not fair        did anyone find fair or an alternative to force?

If this is disheartening or confusing let quick and right death outrace our sun to become a red Giant and as best as you can time your mutual death to feel as one.

edit:  not that it has been initiated for use of the the integral "force" BUT I may beat it to the punch___________beating less to its only match____until all the matter collects again as magnets do not ruin tapes x forgot about but  so called " years" after that  perhaps all enemies and/z friends shall be in one place ////all collected again and tight it may be,  though we are often wrong but ~if it is a big bang it is then  - a singularity that WE will share again I have often said a short sighted slight that the magic may be in the matter(the magic is in the matter)  and let us/you do what we/u might    as clubs  and collections are often otherwise . one can give more than one most at least  said one might postulate young magnetism at its fragile might of most



I stand corrected, and again collected.


Thanks.


Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 01:01:52 pm

grantis wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:04

danickstr wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 21:41

so if I make 10 mil a year, I am paying 2.2 mil in taxes, but I have 7.8 mil to blow on yachts, pretty girls and cocaine.  heyahooooo!  Sign me up for that guy's high tax burden.


Where'd you get those numbers?  that's not anywhere near correct.

Under new tax law (IE, the new healthcare law, etc), if you made 10mil, you'd be paying 5.9mil in tax.

Unless you came up with a bunch of write offs.

My problem with all of this is....the average american work week has been hovering about 34 hours a week for the last decade or so (down as low as 31 during recession).

If 50% of america really is "poor" by definition, it's nobody's fault but their own.  Get up off your lazy but and do something about it instead of working a pathetic 31 hours a week.  this country's sense of entitlement is sickening, and it's the lawyer who spends 90 hours a week in his office EARNING 500k a year who has to pay for all of that sheer laziness.

i'm PAYING my dues by working my ass off for poverty level pay in hopes that it will someday lead to something bigger and better, (and more lucrative).  how sad that i will be continuing to pay dues when that day comes, just in a much more pocket burning kind of way.

although it all makes sense.  why work your ass off when you've already got a free meal ticket?  i guess 50% of america is ok with mediocrity.

there, i said it, and my tongue was only halfway in my cheek.




.

It is instructive here that the barb is aimed not at the 403 billionaires in this country (at last count), but rather at the sector of the population that fits well into the poverty level, the former performing said 31 hours by self choice, the latter working what the bosses tell them they can work.




This is America speaking, or at least  those who wish to fit within what group that best speaks to their own discontent.


Losers' channel, please tune in ....


PS

"Got anger?"

No need to trouble yourself as to where the arrow should be pointed, just pull back, and let us do the pointing and then tell you when to release ....    


The Heritage folks and AM radio are making every effort to bring the losers of the world to the appropriate advertisers.

Gosh Bless.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 02:07:21 pm

Some are better suited for burger flipping (or maybe fader pushing) and complaining.


Others are suited for something better.


Do not confuse your own complaining with some self-imagined "something better," nor your own subconscious discontent that you might have chosen the wrong path.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Berolzheimer on April 10, 2010, 02:13:55 pm
seedyunderbelly.com wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 03:27

A little confused were we trying to un "tip" or "tip" the proof that life is not fair        did anyone find fair or an alternative to force?

If this is disheartening or confusing let quick and right death outrace our sun to become a red Giant and as best as you can time your mutual death to feel as one.

edit:  not that it has been initiated for use of the the integral "force" BUT I may beat it to the punch___________beating less to its only match____until all the matter collects again as magnets do not ruin tapes x forgot about but  so called " years" after that  perhaps all enemies and/z friends shall be in one place ////all collected again and tight it may be,  though we are often wrong but ~if it is a big bang it is then  - a singularity that WE will share again I have often said a short sighted slight that the magic may be in the matter(the magic is in the matter)  and let us/you do what we/u might    as clubs  and collections are often otherwise. one can give more than what one most at least  one might postulate young magnetism in its fragile might of most


John, sometimes I really love your posts!
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Berolzheimer on April 10, 2010, 02:16:01 pm
Edvaard wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 23:35


Ignore please, Berolz,


Just another anticipating his own failure and setting it all up to blame on others, be it the government or whomever.




I don't want to ignore Grant, he has at times had very insightful things to say, on other topics.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 06:33:55 pm
Sorry Berolz, I didn't mean ignore him entirely, just the sentiment.

I can't dismiss a person altogether just for happening upon false information, or, in this instance, false interpretation.


Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: danickstr on April 10, 2010, 07:42:11 pm
Grantis, the point that I did not include is if your income is from investments and dividends, like is the case with the super wealthy, that is CAPITAL GAINS.  They don't "go to a job" and make 20 million, well some CEO's do, but there aren't that many of them.  

The real wealth is generated from "capital gains" and not earned income.

Currently, capital gains tax is 15% or 20%.  Bush set it at 15%, not sure if Obama has changed it yet.

so, if you are a super wealthy person, you probably pay yourself a dollar a year, pay no tax on that, and suck up all the revenue of owning stuff, on which you pay (under Bush) a whopping 15% of it to Uncle Sam, even if you make a billion a year - still 15%.

That is, assuming you collect it in a tax free state, of which there are 4, I believe.  You just need a house in one of them (easy to do, with a billion extra dollars), and then you "say" that it is your primary residence.  

Voila, no state tax.


Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on April 10, 2010, 08:17:31 pm
Edvaard.

You are a complete prick.

For all of your harping on about people who don't think as you do,
you really don't have anything constructive to say... you know, here in the real world.

I'm not so interested in you that I am going to argue, but I think you are too "smart" for your own good...

and for anyone around you.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 08:47:05 pm

Fiasco wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 20:17

Edvaard.

You are a complete prick.


I don't go half measures on anything.



But thanks for noticing.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: grantis on April 10, 2010, 11:04:47 pm
I understand that recessions cause lack of available work, but i sincerely doubt that everybody's really, i mean REALLY, trying to find something to do.  I live in the south....and it seems to be rampant here...hurry up and wait on the government.  The sheer volume of people just sittin around on the front porch all day is astonishing.  Go read a book, or get to a computer and apply for a job.  Seriously.

This has always been the land of opportunity, and the government feels the need to provide stability for the least of the population.  It pisses me off when people are content to live their lives flipping burgers, OK with the fact that they depend entirely on the government and their "tax credits" to survive.  These people are making money by not working, and THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

That's really what i meant by my last post.  I don't think somebody HAS to pay for these people, but apparently, the government does.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: grantis on April 10, 2010, 11:11:01 pm
Edvaard wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 13:07


Some are better suited for burger flipping (or maybe fader pushing) and complaining.


Others are suited for something better.


Do not confuse your own complaining with some self-imagined "something better," nor your own subconscious discontent that you might have chosen the wrong path.




Lets not make this personal.  You don't know me, and I don't know you.  If you'd like to know me, here's where you can start.  

#1-I don't like it when people make assumptions about me when they have no idea about who I am.

Peace.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 11:37:48 pm

No argument from me that there are some that -rely- on help from the government.

Just letting you know that not all of them are porch-sitters, but rather have expensive apartments offices in Washington as a base for operations.

But we all go by what's in front of our eyes, and what the media choose to tell us, right?

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: grantis on April 10, 2010, 11:40:39 pm
Edvaard wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 22:37


No argument from me that there are some that -rely- on help from the government.

Just letting you know that not all of them are porch-sitters, but rather have expensive apartments in Washington as a base for operations.

But we all go by what's in front of our eyes, and what the media choose to tell us, right?




I would venture a guess that there are A LOT that rely on help from the government.

I can't think of any better way to gather information accurately than by seeing it with your own eyes, can you?

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 10, 2010, 11:48:50 pm

When there are those whose interests are better served if the public be not aware of their intentions, and /or those interests better served by advertising or well funded "think tanks," then what you see is not in every case what you get.


But they rely on people who take the world as they see it, plain and simple (or more accurately, "as advertised"), and never venture any further.


PS

How many people from The Department Of Defense, or the newly created Department Of Homeland Security, or AIG, or Goldman Sachs, do you see sitting on the front porch?  


Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 10, 2010, 11:50:01 pm
"I can't think of any better way to gather information accurately than by seeing it with your own eyes, can you?"

Actually, I can think of a better way.  Sometimes when a person lives in a certain city or a certain part of the country what they "see" is disproportionate to the country as a whole.  For instance, White (non-Hispanic) people in the U.S. still make up 75% of the current population but that may not be one's "visual evidence" depending upon where one lives.  Further, the percentage of gay people in the U.S. is about 6% but if you work in the arts you may think the whole world is gay.

So one's perception needs to be of a large body of evidence rather than a small one in order to be more accurate.

Barry

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: grantis on April 10, 2010, 11:52:03 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 22:50

"I can't think of any better way to gather information accurately than by seeing it with your own eyes, can you?"

Actually, I can think of a better way.  Sometimes when a person lives in a certain city or a certain part of the country what they "see" is disproportionate to the country as a whole.  For instance, White (non-Hispanic) people in the U.S. still make up 75% of the current population but that may not be one's "visual evidence" depending upon where one lives.  Further, the percentage of gay people in the U.S. is about 6% but if you work in the arts you may think the whole world is gay.

So one's perception needs to be of a large body of evidence rather than a small one in order to be more accurate.

Barry




The point is...if I can't trust MSNBS, or Fox Booze, than all I can REALLY trust is what I see.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: danickstr on April 11, 2010, 12:54:49 am
Fox news is controlled by Rupert Murdoch, a very conservative iron-fisted ruler of his empire, so you have to realize that the agenda of that source is heavily influenced by him.

He also now owns the Wall Street Journal, so their editorial page has gone through some "conservative" colorations.  Wall Street bankers for the most part don't mind.  I have actually laughed out loud at how biased it has become, but I am a goddnaged liberal.

The New York Times is the most mainstream holy grail of liberals, and presents its agenda of liberalism with cool bravado.

The great tragedy of news is that only the effect is seen by the people.  the cause of so many great world events will never be known to us, and we are left to try to puzzle it together, or believe whatever spin our particular favorite agency wants to put on it.

Or ignore the thinking part and just get a burger and turn on sitcoms.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 11, 2010, 06:16:53 am
grantis wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 04:04

This has always been the land of opportunity, and the government feels the need to provide stability for the least of the population.  It pisses me off when people are content to live their lives flipping burgers, OK with the fact that they depend entirely on the government and their "tax credits" to survive.  These people are making money by not working, and THAT'S RIDICULOUS.


How is flipping burgers not working?

You want your burgers flipped don't you? Well someone has to be there to do that, and if they're going to be there all day then they'll need to end up with enough money to live on.

So if the price of a burger isn't high enough to pay someone a living wage for spending all day making them, you have three choices... you can pay for them through more expensive burgers, you can pay for them through a higher tax burden, or you can do without the burgers.

In every society there are a number of free-loaders, that is certainly true, but something else that is true is that there are also those who's position is untenable without assistance, and NOT because they are lazy. Nearly FOURTY MILLION people in the USA are below the povertty threshold, or one in eight, and I'll bet that if you spoke to a good distribution of them (rather than just the ones you see sitting on their front porch during the day), you'd find that most get up every day and put in a full day's work every bit as hard as people earning ten, a hundred, or a thousand rimes as much as them.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 11, 2010, 06:27:04 am
grantis wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 04:52

Barry Hufker wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 22:50

"I can't think of any better way to gather information accurately than by seeing it with your own eyes, can you?"

Actually, I can think of a better way.  Sometimes when a person lives in a certain city or a certain part of the country what they "see" is disproportionate to the country as a whole.  For instance, White (non-Hispanic) people in the U.S. still make up 75% of the current population but that may not be one's "visual evidence" depending upon where one lives.  Further, the percentage of gay people in the U.S. is about 6% but if you work in the arts you may think the whole world is gay.

So one's perception needs to be of a large body of evidence rather than a small one in order to be more accurate.

Barry




The point is...if I can't trust MSNBS, or Fox Booze, than all I can REALLY trust is what I see.




But you must be careful what you extrapolate from what you see.

You see ten people sitting on their porch all day, who are poor, and your conclusion is "poor people are all lazy".

But what you CAN'T see, is how many people are NOT on their porch all day, you might be able to make a guesstimate in the places you can see... how many houses are there, what percentage have people sitting outside?... but even then you can't knowhow many people are in the household. You certainly can't know how many people are sitting on their porches in the area you can't see. Maybe you're in a sitting on the porch hotspot?

And if you don't talk to them, you can't know WHY they're sitting on the porch. Maybe some are retired through age or illness/injury, maybe some have been looking for work every day... maybe some do work and are having their day off.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: grantis on April 11, 2010, 12:23:19 pm
Good point.

Numbers don't lie.  31, even 34 hours a week is the reason they depend on the government.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 11, 2010, 01:17:29 pm
grantis wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 17:23

Good point.

Numbers don't lie.  31, even 34 hours a week is the reason they depend on the government.




"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Numbers may not lie, but interpretations can.

Of those people actually IN full time employment, 34 hours a week is not the average working week according to the bureau of labor statistics, in fact it's 41.9 hours

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat23.txt

So I can only guess that the avarage you keep quoting, if it is correct, includes those who have no work at all (since even including part timers the average of 37.9 hours is higher than you keep quoting)... this would also explain why the hours go down during times of recession, it doesn't take many unemployed people on zero hours to lower the average notably.

9.3 percent of your current labour force is unemployed... is that because they're all too lazy to get a job? Well that would mean that the number of lazy people in the US has doubled in two years... an outbreak of Tetse flies causing sleeping sickness perhaps?

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.txt


Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: grantis on April 11, 2010, 01:56:10 pm
OK...we're missing the point.

Going back to my original post....my problem with all of this is....there are people in this country who depend entirely on the system.  Some depend moderately on the system.  And some (who have earned the ability to not depend on the system), have to pay for the ones who are dependent on the system.  And it seems to me, that this country has gotten so used to the free meal tickets, that there's no motivation to get out of that pattern of dependency.  

Does that not bother you?  What are we teaching our kids (or your kids, cuz I'm without child...yet)?  Public school education budgets are being cut left and right to the point where some school districts can barely afford PAPER.  

We are teaching them that it's OK to scrape by on whatever scraps uncle sam throws their way.  Or, in more recent times, the salary uncle sam openly extends to them regardless of whether they've earned it or not.

So that's it.  I'm done here...this topic gets my blood boiling, and I'm too young to stroke out.

Peace, love and meal tickets.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: danickstr on April 11, 2010, 05:06:05 pm
You cannot inspire the majority of the poor to rise from their welfare dependency by denying them adequate life necessities.  Too many will suffer - unless that is some sort of plan.   Might as well exterminate them and cut the suffering down to a quick mass execution.

The original post was about income tax being predominantly supported by the wealthy, not how much welfare is paid with it.  
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 12, 2010, 12:27:10 am
@Craig,

There is a huge dichotomy here.  Republicans always cut education funding and social services while increasing the military.  Democrats try to restore educational, social programs while restoring middle class tax cuts.  So it is the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" Republicans who make it damn near impossible to be educated and improve yourself but if you're desperate, there is always the military....  Democrats then spend a lot of time trying to create the bootstraps Republicans dismantle.

BTW, (and Jon will correct me if I'm wrong), Capitalism (or at least this country's economy) depends heavily upon having a certain segment of the population unemployed.  It isn't a by-product.  It is a necessity.  That figure is usually around 5 to 6%.

Barry
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 12, 2010, 12:37:20 am
Here is a timely article as to the truth and deliberate Republican lies/misrepresentations.

http://crooksandliars.com/node/36257

Barry
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Samc on April 12, 2010, 09:59:49 am
danickstr wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 22:06


The original post was about income tax being predominantly supported by the wealthy, not how much welfare is paid with it.  


No, it's about how "nearly half of US households 'ESCAPE' fed income tax".  Talk about spinning the facts to suite your (the article's) bias....
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 12, 2010, 11:56:27 am
I (obviously) strongly support the article and it's conclusions.

I believe the article presents the "correct" perspective on this issue.  If you'd like, feel free to tell me (us), with facts, how the article is incorrect.

Barry

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 13, 2010, 03:01:50 am

The only thing more amazing than the fact that almost half the work force in a country with such a high per capita GDP do not make enough money to pay taxes, is the fact that so many do not even notice that it is amazing that a country with such a high per capita GDP pays almost half the work force so poorly.


Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on April 13, 2010, 08:46:53 am
I don't fault people for taking what they are given
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 13, 2010, 11:42:54 am
I don't fault people for taking what they need.


Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on April 13, 2010, 01:38:26 pm
Quote:

I don't fault people for taking what they are given


Quote:

I don't fault people for taking what they need.



I fault people for taking what they want.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: DarinK on April 13, 2010, 04:01:12 pm
Edvaard wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 00:01


The only thing more amazing than the fact that almost half the work force in a country with such a high per capita GDP do not make enough money to pay taxes, is the fact that so many do not even notice that it is amazing that a country with such a high per capita GDP pay almost half the work force so poorly.






I agree.  It really surprises me that some seem to see it as how those awful folks are not paying their fair share, instead of seeing it as how those poor people are not able to earn enough money to contribute.  It is easier to look down on people when you're above them instead of with them, but in the U.S. it seems the poor & un/under-employed are angry at other poor & un/under-employed people.
I don't have my copy of Slaugherhouse Five handy, but I remember Vonnegut has a good bit in there about how the U.S. is the only country where poor people are taught to be hostile towards other poor people, and blame them for all their difficulties.  I believe he quotes the attitude, "If you're so smart, how come you aren't rich?"  It's sort of the flip-side of the American dream; if you can become anything if you just try hard enough, then obviously those who have little have just not been trying.
As the divide between rich & poor continues to grow, with the middle class disappearing, of course the percentage who pay taxes will decrease.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Samc on April 13, 2010, 05:49:42 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Mon, 12 April 2010 16:56

I (obviously) strongly support the article and it's conclusions.

I believe the article presents the "correct" perspective on this issue.  If you'd like, feel free to tell me (us), with facts, how the article is incorrect.

Barry

I was (obviously) writing about the article Brad linked to in his original post, what article are you referring to Barry?
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 13, 2010, 06:19:33 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 23:37

Here is a timely article as to the truth and deliberate Republican lies/misrepresentations.

http://crooksandliars.com/node/36257

Barry


This one Sam (above).  I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

Barry
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: bblackwood on April 13, 2010, 06:38:04 pm
DarinK wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 15:01

I agree.  It really surprises me that some seem to see it as how those awful folks are not paying their fair share, instead of seeing it as how those poor people are not able to earn enough money to contribute.

I'm sorry, but half of the US population is not so poor they cannot afford to pay something in he way of income tax. I don't consider them awful for taking full advantage of the system, but I'm willing to bet 80% of that 47% who don't pay income tax live pretty well - we're not talking about the slums if Nicaragua here...
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 13, 2010, 06:54:09 pm
"we're not talking about the slums if Nicaragua here..."

Just the slums in the U.S....


Again, I would say many of these people got a refund.  A few got a free ride.

But it sucks to be poor no matter where you are.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 13, 2010, 07:38:53 pm
bblackwood wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 23:38

DarinK wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 15:01

I agree.  It really surprises me that some seem to see it as how those awful folks are not paying their fair share, instead of seeing it as how those poor people are not able to earn enough money to contribute.

I'm sorry, but half of the US population is not so poor they cannot afford to pay something in he way of income tax. I don't consider them awful for taking full advantage of the system, but I'm willing to bet 80% of that 47% who don't pay income tax live pretty well - we're not talking about the slums if Nicaragua here...


That article is based on information from the Tax Policy Center

You might find item 1 here interesting reading

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=90133 5
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: bblackwood on April 13, 2010, 08:30:04 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 18:38

That article is based on information from the Tax Policy Center

You might find item 1 here interesting reading

 http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=90133 5

How so? No one is saying that 47% of the people of this country pay NO taxes, but when 43% of the US Gov'ts receipts come from income tax, and 47% of the people pay no income tax, well, any wonder why we are in deficit every year?

There are certainly folks who need every penny to get by, but I guarantee a good percentage of those who pay no income tax have cable, big screen TV's, etc.

I don't begrudge folks who need the break, but you cannot tell me 47% of this country cannot afford to pay some income taxes.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 13, 2010, 09:00:17 pm
bblackwood wrote on Wed, 14 April 2010 01:30

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 18:38

That article is based on information from the Tax Policy Center

You might find item 1 here interesting reading

  http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=90133 5

How so? No one is saying that 47% of the people of this country pay NO taxes, but when 43% of the US Gov'ts receipts come from income tax, and 47% of the people pay no income tax, well, any wonder why we are in deficit every year?

There are certainly folks who need every penny to get by, but I guarantee a good percentage of those who pay no income tax have cable, big screen TV's, etc.

I don't begrudge folks who need the break, but you cannot tell me 47% of this country cannot afford to pay some income taxes.


I thought you might like to educate yourself in your outrage. It's understandable to be annoyed that some people aren't paying their fair share (whatever you personally feel a "fair share" is), but I think it's also a good idea to get a better perspective on who that might be.

How many of that 47% have cable and big screen TVs?

"According to our research, more than 75 percent of us will pay at least some form of federal tax in 2010."
(This refers to income and payroll taxes)

"Those who pay no federal taxes are mostly the low-income elderly or very poor families with children. Even about half of those with annual incomes under $10,000 pay some federal tax, most often payroll taxes on wages. "

And which is the credit you think is unfair or incorrect?

"Half of them earn too little, while the other half -- mostly middle- and lower-income households -- will take advantage of tax credits such as the earned income credit, the child and child-care credits, the American Opportunity and Lifetime Learning credits, which help pay for college, and the saver's credit, which subsidizes retirement saving. "

These people aren't EVADING tax, they're paying what the tax system says they should, they're subject to the same tax system that you are, so where is the system failing in your opinion? Which of these allowances is wrong, or too big?
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: bblackwood on April 13, 2010, 09:18:24 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 20:00


I thought you might like to educate yourself in your outrage.

I've read plenty, including your link. I think maybe we're passing like ships in the night here, which means I've failed in my attempts to explain why I feel the way I do.

Quote:

These people aren't EVADING tax, they're paying what the tax system says they should, they're subject to the same tax system that you are, so where is the system failing in your opinion? Which of these allowances is wrong, or too big?

No where have I said they were doing anything wrong. The system is broken, that's the entire point I've been trying to make in this thread. When 47% of people can be (legally) exempt from income tax, something which is no small amount for many of us who pay, the system is broken.

Fair tax, flat tax, whatever - at this point we have around half of the citizens of this country funding nearly half the entire budget for the US gov't, something we ALL benefit from.

As I've already said, I don't begrudge those who qualify for these reduced tax rates, but any system which allows such a massive reduction in the tax base - a reduction which isn't a 'buy groceries or not' determination - is broken and unfair for those who do have to pay. Hence the 'big screens and cable TV' bit above.

Not sure if I can say it any more plainly than that.

Meh, I really like you guys, but I'm losing interest in this discussion. Not sure why I can't seem to make my point, I guess I'm not explaining myself very clearly, though it seems obvious to me. I guess I'm done, y'all have fun.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 13, 2010, 09:35:59 pm
double checking something
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: PookyNMR on April 13, 2010, 09:51:13 pm
bblackwood wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 18:30


How so? No one is saying that 47% of the people of this country pay NO taxes, but when 43% of the US Gov'ts receipts come from income tax, and 47% of the people pay no income tax, well, any wonder why we are in deficit every year?

There are certainly folks who need every penny to get by, but I guarantee a good percentage of those who pay no income tax have cable, big screen TV's, etc.

I don't begrudge folks who need the break, but you cannot tell me 47% of this country cannot afford to pay some income taxes.


Previously we saw that the bottom 50% are working with a family income of $32k or less.  

How easy do you think it is for a family to live on that?

They may have a big TV, but likely don't take a vacation like you do, or drive a care like you do, or provide an education for their children like you can, etc, etc, etc.

I don't begrudge someone for spending $1k on a TV when all they can afford to do is watch TV.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 13, 2010, 09:56:36 pm

Quote:

There are certainly folks who need every penny to get by, but I guarantee a good percentage of those who pay no income tax have cable, big screen TV's, etc.



You are certainly right on that one, more than you probably thought.


The chart showing just how many, and how much they make;


http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/Content/GIF/T10-0105.GIF





That's 748,000 people with income above $100,000 not paying any income tax, including over 6,000 individuals making more than $1Million a year not paying a penny.

Cable with all the premium channels, in fact, and one large screen rig each for the main residence, the yacht, and the vacation home.


I wonder why we don't see them sitting on the front porch as we walk by? Oh that's right, we don't live in those neighborhoods.


And we cannot seriously consider that catching the few real-deal porch sitting scofflaws and forcing them to pay would make any noticeable dent in the deficit.


OTOH, not starting bogus wars ( $1 billion a day, every day ... ) and not gutting finance/securities regulations, so badly that $1.5 trillion of the country's debt now goes to investment bankers and scam securities insurance firms, could take us a long way towards dealing with a lot of issues in this country.



If we're really concerned about the national debt, that might be the place to look, instead of front porches in poor neighborhoods.




Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 13, 2010, 10:46:36 pm

What caused the  massive reduction in the tax base was unemployment jumping from less than 6% to over 10% as a result of the near economic meltdown, which itself was the result of a formerly decently working regulatory system, that Phil Gramm went to a lot of trouble to break, breaking. Mission accomplished.


So yes, the system that actually caused all this is broken, and congress is having trouble fixing it because all the people who benefited from it want it repaired as little as possible (and why they're even allowed still to lobby on the matter rather than serving jail time is beyond me).


That leaves us with the fact that the little bit of extra relief tossed to the lowest paid workers, to go along with the $1.5Trillion of 'relief' shipped to the scammers, reduced the tax paying numbers by another half percent or so.


No argument from me, this is a broken system.



Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 13, 2010, 11:47:54 pm
While the system  may be  "broken" -- whatever that means, I don't believe one can begrudge  people for how they choose to live.  Many poor may have a nice tv in their home, but at what price?  Did they buy it (new or used) or is it "rent to own" at userous rates?  Don't they need a tv in their home for news and weather alerts?  Don't they need a computer in their home for information, school reports, etc.  Without the poor having computers, we create a new division among people -- those who have information and communication and those who do not (one of the reasons public libraries have computers for public use).

If one judges by superficial observations, it is easy to think one is being abused and that one's abuse is to another's benefit, but it's simply not true.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on April 14, 2010, 06:56:15 am
Barry Hufker wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 23:47

...I don't believe one can begrudge  people for how they choose to live.  



Unless they are rich...


or Republican.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Samc on April 14, 2010, 08:20:41 am
Barry Hufker wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 23:19

Barry Hufker wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 23:37

Here is a timely article as to the truth and deliberate Republican lies/misrepresentations.

http://crooksandliars.com/node/36257

Barry


This one Sam (above).  I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

Barry

You and I both TOTALLY agree on this one!  No argument from me here...
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Samc on April 14, 2010, 08:27:29 am
bblackwood wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 23:38

DarinK wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 15:01

I agree.  It really surprises me that some seem to see it as how those awful folks are not paying their fair share, instead of seeing it as how those poor people are not able to earn enough money to contribute.

I'm sorry, but half of the US population is not so poor they cannot afford to pay something in he way of income tax. I don't consider them awful for taking full advantage of the system, but I'm willing to bet 80% of that 47% who don't pay income tax live pretty well - we're not talking about the slums if Nicaragua here...

Brad, they don't pay FEDERAL income tax, they do pay state and other taxes.

From the same article you posted:

"The vast majority of people who escape federal income taxes still pay other taxes, including federal payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare, and excise taxes on gasoline, aviation, alcohol and cigarettes. Many also pay state or local taxes on sales, income and property."
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Samc on April 14, 2010, 08:29:44 am
bblackwood wrote on Wed, 14 April 2010 01:30

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 18:38

That article is based on information from the Tax Policy Center

You might find item 1 here interesting reading

  http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=90133 5

How so? No one is saying that 47% of the people of this country pay NO taxes, but when 43% of the US Gov'ts receipts come from income tax, and 47% of the people pay no income tax, well, any wonder why we are in deficit every year?

There are certainly folks who need every penny to get by, but I guarantee a good percentage of those who pay no income tax have cable, big screen TV's, etc.

I don't begrudge folks who need the break, but you cannot tell me 47% of this country cannot afford to pay some income taxes.


You are misrepresenting again, please see above...
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 14, 2010, 11:28:49 am
Fiasco wrote on Wed, 14 April 2010 05:56



Unless they are rich...


or Republican.




I don't begrudge either.  Although I may take exception to how they make their money and how they try to force others to live.


Barry
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Taproot on April 14, 2010, 11:39:59 am
I think the misunderstanding here is that the credits do not zero out when your tax liability is met. If the credit/deductions are greater than your tax liability, you get refund. During a particularly crappy year, I was the beneficiary of this "credit". I received back, just over $3000 MORE than I put in. Did I give the money back? No. Do I think the credit should null at zero. Yes.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jay Kadis on April 14, 2010, 02:39:17 pm
Here's a list of state tax delinquents from California:

http://www.ftb.ca.gov/individuals/txdlnqnt.shtml

There's a name we know on the list - see if you spot it.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Berolzheimer on April 14, 2010, 06:06:34 pm
Jay Kadis wrote on Wed, 14 April 2010 11:39

Here's a list of state tax delinquents from California:

http://www.ftb.ca.gov/individuals/txdlnqnt.shtml

There's a name we know on the list - see if you spot it.


Uh oh, pretty close to the top, too.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: DarinK on April 14, 2010, 06:55:56 pm
More debunking of how the 47% number is being used to mis-represent what's really going on regarding federal taxes:
http://crooksandliars.com/node/36340

Enjoy.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Strummer on April 14, 2010, 11:50:48 pm
http://www.salon.com/news/tea_parties/index.html?story=/opin ion/feature/2010/04/14/right_wing_tax_myths_april_15

Half of US households hold 2-1/2% of the wealth?

The state of the economy is their fault, no doubt.

And liberal think tanks twist facts to suit their agenda.

The number is arguable, agreed. I've seen conservative estimates as high as 17%! Imagine that.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Edvaard on April 15, 2010, 12:29:03 am
/
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 15, 2010, 12:11:13 pm
DarinK wrote on Wed, 14 April 2010 17:55

More debunking of how the 47% number is being used to mis-represent what's really going on regarding federal taxes:
http://crooksandliars.com/node/36340

Enjoy.


That's a great video with Jon Stewart.  I'm glad you posted it as I was just about to.


Barry

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 15, 2010, 02:58:55 pm
I've been looking at what the numbers would look like if you had a "flat" tax system (as the term is used to describe systems with one rate and an allowance, so not truly flat as such).

I may have made an error in my working, so don't take this as gospel without checking it yourselves, but what I'm generally getting is...

if I try to make the situation revenue neutral, using the figures from the IRS I linked to before, the poorest 50% only start to pay more when you get to a rate of about 15.8% with an allowance of just over 12k.

And they're not the big winners at this point, in fact compared to a flat tax system with those figures, they'd be paying almost exactly the same percentage as now, the top 5% would pay less, and everyone else would pay more, with the 25-50% group hardest hit.

I don't have any moral conclusion about this, I just found it interesting to see what happened when you played with the numbers.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Berolzheimer on April 15, 2010, 06:12:12 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 15 April 2010 09:11

DarinK wrote on Wed, 14 April 2010 17:55

More debunking of how the 47% number is being used to mis-represent what's really going on regarding federal taxes:
http://crooksandliars.com/node/36340

Enjoy.


That's a great video with Jon Stewart.  I'm glad you posted it as I was just about to.


Barry




Here here.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Barry Hufker on April 15, 2010, 07:47:51 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Thu, 15 April 2010 13:58

I've been looking at what the numbers would look like if you had a "flat" tax system (as the term is used to describe systems with one rate and an allowance, so not truly flat as such).

I may have made an error in my working, so don't take this as gospel without checking it yourselves, but what I'm generally getting is...

if I try to make the situation revenue neutral, using the figures from the IRS I linked to before, the poorest 50% only start to pay more when you get to a rate of about 15.8% with an allowance of just over 12k.

And they're not the big winners at this point, in fact compared to a flat tax system with those figures, they'd be paying almost exactly the same percentage as now, the top 5% would pay less, and everyone else would pay more, with the 25-50% group hardest hit.

I don't have any moral conclusion about this, I just found it interesting to see what happened when you played with the numbers.




I've never done the math but in all I have read, I've been led to believe a flat tax would result in me paying more than I do so on a gut level I agree with your calculations.

In Singapore... the government determines what you must pay as a tax and sends you a bill...


Barry
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 15, 2010, 08:30:29 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 16 April 2010 00:47

Jon Hodgson wrote on Thu, 15 April 2010 13:58

I've been looking at what the numbers would look like if you had a "flat" tax system (as the term is used to describe systems with one rate and an allowance, so not truly flat as such).

I may have made an error in my working, so don't take this as gospel without checking it yourselves, but what I'm generally getting is...

if I try to make the situation revenue neutral, using the figures from the IRS I linked to before, the poorest 50% only start to pay more when you get to a rate of about 15.8% with an allowance of just over 12k.

And they're not the big winners at this point, in fact compared to a flat tax system with those figures, they'd be paying almost exactly the same percentage as now, the top 5% would pay less, and everyone else would pay more, with the 25-50% group hardest hit.

I don't have any moral conclusion about this, I just found it interesting to see what happened when you played with the numbers.




I've never done the math but in all I have read, I've been led to believe a flat tax would result in me paying more than I do so on a gut level I agree with your calculations.

In Singapore... the government determines what you must pay as a tax and sends you a bill...


Barry



Though as far as the rich paying less under a flat tax as per my workings, one of the theories is that a flat tax system gives fewer places for people to "hide" their earnings to avoid tax (which the rich tend to be better at), and indeed less incentive to do so (because the rates tend to be lower). If this is correct then declared incomes at the higher end would tend to increase, and therefore you might not see the reductions that I calculated.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: danickstr on April 15, 2010, 11:22:33 pm
I like the idea of a flat tax that ramps up for the very rich.  So it's kinda flat, with a kicker at the high end.  Flat if you just don't earn too much.   Laughing
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 16, 2010, 02:56:32 pm
danickstr wrote on Fri, 16 April 2010 04:22

I like the idea of a flat tax that ramps up for the very rich.  So it's kinda flat, with a kicker at the high end.  Flat if you just don't earn too much.   Laughing


Punitive tax never strikes me as a particularly good way to get money out of the really rich (though I guess that depends on where you draw the line between rich and really rich)... they have too aany ways to move their money around, and they could always just leave the country and go and live somewhere else.

Get them to spend their money, make a hospital wing with their name on it more fashionable than a Gulf Stream jet, convince them that finding a cure for cancer is a more interesting challenge than another takeover.

Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jay Kadis on April 16, 2010, 03:06:03 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 16 April 2010 11:56

danickstr wrote on Fri, 16 April 2010 04:22

I like the idea of a flat tax that ramps up for the very rich.  So it's kinda flat, with a kicker at the high end.  Flat if you just don't earn too much.   Laughing


Punitive tax never strikes me as a particularly good way to get money out of the really rich (though I guess that depends on where you draw the line between rich and really rich)... they have too aany ways to move their money around, and they could always just leave the country and go and live somewhere else.

Get them to spend their money, make a hospital wing with their name on it more fashionable than a Gulf Stream jet, convince them that finding a cure for cancer is a more interesting challenge than another takeover.


It's not a takeover to slant the tax rate so that as your success goes up, your percentage follows.  It doesn't have to be punitive.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Berolzheimer on April 16, 2010, 03:28:48 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 16 April 2010 11:56


Punitive tax never strikes me as a particularly good way to get money out of the really rich (though I guess that depends on where you draw the line between rich and really rich)... they have too aany ways to move their money around, and they could always just leave the country and go and live somewhere else.




This brings up what I think is one of the great fallacies that comes into these discussions.  I don't believe that a percentage or 2 or 3 of tax differences affect how the "really rich" decide to live their lives.  Folks with tens or hundreds of millions or billions can afford to live where they want to, regardless.  with that much money there's really no way to spend it, so it just doesn't matter.  No billionaire is going to leave a place that he loves because it costs a a few thousand dollars more to live there than somewhere else.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: Jon Hodgson on April 16, 2010, 09:13:03 pm
Berolzheimer wrote on Fri, 16 April 2010 20:28

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 16 April 2010 11:56


Punitive tax never strikes me as a particularly good way to get money out of the really rich (though I guess that depends on where you draw the line between rich and really rich)... they have too aany ways to move their money around, and they could always just leave the country and go and live somewhere else.




This brings up what I think is one of the great fallacies that comes into these discussions.  I don't believe that a percentage or 2 or 3 of tax differences affect how the "really rich" decide to live their lives.  Folks with tens or hundreds of millions or billions can afford to live where they want to, regardless.  with that much money there's really no way to spend it, so it just doesn't matter.  No billionaire is going to leave a place that he loves because it costs a a few thousand dollars more to live there than somewhere else.


But we're rarely talking about a percentage or 2 or 3 of difference when people talk about taxing the rich more. I've never seen anyone suggest a 2% step in a tax bracket at the high end, it's always 10% or 20% or more.

Also it tends to not just be the "really rich", there simply aren't enough of them, the average income of the top 1% in the USA is under 1.5 million, which for most of us is a shedload of money, but it's actually still low enough that tax can make a notable difference to your lifestyle (do you buy the standard ferrari or the special edition Enzo?)... and the majority will be earning less than that.

The "brain drain" is a famous phenomenon that the UK suffered at one point when its highest tax bracket was 90%, the people who could earn the money to fall into that bracket realized they could do so anywhere in the world... so they did, and they took their productivity with them. It's even easier for people to do that sort of thing now with the internet, teleconferencing etc.

Yes, those with hundreds of millions can afford to live where they want to anyway, so they're not going to move, but it's also cheaper for them to hire tax experts to move their money around than to simply pay more tax, so you're not going to get them either.

Right now the top 1% are paying about 5% more federal income tax than the 2-5% bracket, how far do you think you can push it? History shows that there is a limit.
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: danickstr on April 16, 2010, 10:10:51 pm
capital gains is only 15%.  So the dividend earning rich have it more than twice better than the upper middle class now (who pay 36% on 150,000.00 earned income).
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: John Ivan on April 18, 2010, 07:45:51 pm
grantis wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:04

danickstr wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 21:41

so if I make 10 mil a year, I am paying 2.2 mil in taxes, but I have 7.8 mil to blow on yachts, pretty girls and cocaine.  heyahooooo!  Sign me up for that guy's high tax burden.


Where'd you get those numbers?  that's not anywhere near correct.

Under new tax law (IE, the new healthcare law, etc), if you made 10mil, you'd be paying 5.9mil in tax.

Unless you came up with a bunch of write offs.

My problem with all of this is....the average american work week has been hovering about 34 hours a week for the last decade or so (down as low as 31 during recession).

If 50% of america really is "poor" by definition, it's nobody's fault but their own.  Get up off your lazy but and do something about it instead of working a pathetic 31 hours a week.  this country's sense of entitlement is sickening, and it's the lawyer who spends 90 hours a week in his office EARNING 500k a year who has to pay for all of that sheer laziness.

i'm PAYING my dues by working my ass off for poverty level pay in hopes that it will someday lead to something bigger and better, (and more lucrative).  how sad that i will be continuing to pay dues when that day comes, just in a much more pocket burning kind of way.

although it all makes sense.  why work your ass off when you've already got a free meal ticket?  i guess 50% of america is ok with mediocrity.

there, i said it, and my tongue was only halfway in my cheek.





Yeah Man. I hear ya!!All these lazy fucks.. Man, they lost their homes, their cars, they can barely pay for food for their kids, and it's just because they're all lazy.

See, there's a group of folks in this country who believe that ONLY THEY work hard enough.. They just can't see why everyone else can't have what they have.. "hey!! I worked hard for my $40,000 pile of shit SUV and my over bloated house, and my wife's plastic cloths.. Anyone who can't do this, is just lazy!!"..

We call these people republicans where I come from.. I find it truly amazing that the original poster is "speechless" over something that is common knowledge, not in any way surprising and in the final analysis, not so unfair..

People live under a rock. They see the people they work with, and what's in their yard. Nothing else is their problem.. If things are hard for someone, it's their fault. Period.

It's fine with me, I guess. I'm just pointing out that there is less sense of community now than ever before. It's every man for him self.. I'm just sorry I didn't get on board with this thinking earlier. I could have doubled my money easily had I thought mostly about ME ME ME!!

I'm more concerned with us. Us. Us. How sad for me..

Speechless?? Laughing  How funny..

Ivan...........................
Title: Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
Post by: DarinK on April 18, 2010, 10:42:59 pm
Grant is working his ass off for poverty-level pay, but he knows everybody else in poverty is just lazy.  Why, there are lots of jobs out there, tons of work for everyone who is willing to work more hours.  
Yeah, right.  That's why hundreds or even thousands of people show up to apply whenever a few job openings are announced.