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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Fletcher => Topic started by: ,,deda,, Tim Porter on November 01, 2009, 01:59:56 am

Title: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: ,,deda,, Tim Porter on November 01, 2009, 01:59:56 am
 I have a feeling this is a fairly unknown console but I figured if anybody would know it'd be PSW.

So any info on the Peavey AMR Production Series 1600 console 32x16x32 total 88 inputs in mix mode. The center section was modded by TMI engineering. So anyone familiar with them a opinion as well.

I don't need pre amps or even eqs, but an analog console I need to use with my Radar and much vintage outboard gear and I am OTB only. It MUST not f**k up the signal of my 1081's or Calrec 1061's or V72's on their way through the board. Go in like a Lion come out like a Lion is a must.

I'm worn out carrying around my gear, driving lots of miles to audition a console but it's the the only way. This ones far away and I'll go but not without some input from anyone even remotely familiar with this console,

Thanks as always, regards ,,deda,,

http://i34.tinypic.com/1ioheg.jpg
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Tim Halligan on November 01, 2009, 07:30:15 am
deda,

Go here: http://forum.analogconsole.com/

Some cluey folks that can give you some good info.


Cheers,
Tim
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Fletcher on November 01, 2009, 10:40:00 am
Are you in a budget range?  I remember sitting behind one of these once a LOOooOOong time ago.  What I recall of the experience was thinking that it was short on headroom and short on depth to the audio [sorta like a "Soundcraft" or an "Allen & Heath"].  I take it you're looking for a mix platform... how many inputs do you think you require?  What kind of room is this going in?  Budget?
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: archtop on November 01, 2009, 12:39:03 pm
I remember when I was looking around and found a  peavey AMR console for a real good deal.

Checked with my studio design guy.


He said : "Friends don't let friends buy Peavey AMR consoles"






Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: ,,deda,, Tim Porter on November 01, 2009, 01:09:54 pm
archtop wrote on Sun, 01 November 2009 11:39

I remember when I was looking around and found a peavey AMR console for a real good deal.

Checked with my studio design guy.


He said : "Friends don't let friends buy Peavey AMR consoles"



 Thank you my new friend and with Fletchers post that preceded yours I'll heed both posts opinions and pass. This keeps PSW in the last 6 weeks at a 100% 12 for 12, man you cannot beat that. This is the best damn forum on the internet and is aptly named.

I could have posted this on other forums including some big active ones but 1 of 2 things would have happened, 1. Out of 100,000 members not one knows the board and no answers at all or 2. A 100,000 different opinions. Which means ZERO help and neither of the 2 is acceptable and my wait to ever get an answer might have gone on forever thus unanswered as well.

Not here, quick responses with great information that helps one make a well informed, accurate decision.

Thank you for your very important opinion and Fletchers as well, regards ,,deda,,
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: ,,deda,, Tim Porter on November 01, 2009, 10:32:22 pm
Fletcher wrote on Sun, 01 November 2009 09:40

Are you in a budget range?  I remember sitting behind one of these once a LOOooOOong time ago.  What I recall of the experience was thinking that it was short on headroom and short on depth to the audio [sorta like a "Soundcraft" or an "Allen & Heath"].  I take it you're looking for a mix platform... how many inputs do you think you require?  What kind of room is this going in?  Budget?


Thanks for the post Fletcher I knew you would have at least crossed paths with one of these. The lack of headroom AND short on depth to the audio are both deal killers.

He states the center section mod has really opened up the board sonically. This to me is as big a Red Flag Flying thats ever flown over Beijing. If indeed the Center section mod  helped that much what about all them there channels and all that implies. It would lead me to believe that each channel sucked and would need if even feasible to be modded as well.

Seems to me if all the channels suck then having a modded center section doesn't make a sh*t.

Okay now that being said Fletcher I have paid cash for every piece of gear for the last 25 years of collecting vintage outboard rack gear and microphones. I worked in Corporate America in sales and would use bonus checks and the such to buy said gear for future use. I only paid $1,800.00 for my pair of Neve 1081's 18 years ago.

So back to the issue of do I have a budget, yes. I've a 5k to 8k floating cash reserve I would consider as a budget. I want to pay cash and thought for sure I'd find some sleeper console in this range.

Yes as well to wanting it for a mix platform but also for tracking. I have and love my Radar II and the Classic Converters, the Radar provides a great TDIF transfer to a Mackie d8b at this point so I can do somethings rewarding, I empathize some.

BUT I am sick as hell of the horrible latency issues and all of the frigging M. C. Escher routing needed to access my outboard gear at mixdown thus creating massive latency issues that require math that Einstein would have a hard time figuring out.

Why in the hell did Mackie design a digital console to compete with the o2r when they didn't have a clue how? Why did they design the board so the inserts allows one to use their outboard during tracking but NOT during mixdown. For me to use my outboard in mixdown the preceding paragraph is understating my problems with the issue.

If it was not for  a bunch of guys on the d8b forum rewriting the entire manual and publishing all of the hundreds of work around's on the d8b I'd be really pissed for buying one. I've a damn good one but all of the Mackie stock digital comps, eqs. and even their MFX and UFX effects cards with their expensive plugs to buy, Massenburg EQ my ass, Drawmer, Antares, TC, they are all worthless AND they are Latency hogs with charts and mathematic tables to work with, designed by a member of the d8b forum NOT Mackie, but they still suck.

My son and a couple of friends run Logic and use the Hui mode to do their midi heavy "Retard Fusion" and it works for them as a controller. I know there's better controllers but it meets their needs and I don't use it so I guess it stays for that.

So Fletcher I want out of the digital domain except for my Radar, then the 2 pcs. at the end of the 2 Buss, Apogee A/D to my MasterLink.

My studio complex is "Private". I say complex because I've a 2 room on the 3rd floor and the main in the converted barn. The barn has 2 rooms but the "Live" room 36 x 26 x 18 with a 26 x 24 x 18 outside dim. control room with a splayed interior room of 16 x 24 x 14. To describe what the Culls sound wants to be think "The Clash" and all that implies from London Calling to Sandinista.

I'd prefer something more than the min. of 24 channels to the Radar although this is not inputs. I've considered the Toft ATB 32 and I am sure it would have ample inputs. So something along those lines as far as number of inputs and channels.

So buy a Toft ATB 32, well maybe a new one but no Pilots, ver.1's or ver.2's to many things squirrely.  I may be reading to much into the dozens of pcs. read on the Toft but the word MOD is thrown around a lot starting with the center section to really improve it's headroom. I know not to buy into every opinion on the damn internet but this Mod is discussed by at least 50% plus of Toft owners. I've not kept records of how many various pieces of information I've read on the Toft but Mod seems to be in all, except in Toft and it's distributors lit. but I would not expect them to.

Sorry to run on so long but I've a lot of angst built up over this. Me thinks my budget or my cash on hand needs to increase but that does not mean I'll find one worthy because it costs more. I've studied the next level of consoles as well and there's plenty of Crap Hyped. The older better thought of boards need maintenance and there's no one out here in the Boondocks and it's a hike by car from Dallas so I'd need to find a restored one.

As far as I'm concerned "You The Man", you know your sh*t, brutally honest if need be and there's plenty of fantasies needing correcting and your knowledge spans recording history, so when you comment I listen.

Well I'm listening now and thanks in advance for your recommendations, regards ,,deda,,

The Inside of a Mackie d8b!
index.php/fa/13701/0/
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: marcel on November 01, 2009, 11:42:48 pm
Hi deda:

You may be able to find an older Neotek or Amek in your stated price range that suits your needs and has the quality and 'heft' that sets a real console apart. Regarding mods, I bought an older Soundcraft Delta very cheaply several years ago and had Jim Williams at Audio Upgrades do some work on it.  It has served me well, although it's functionally somewhat limited, and to be fair has been little more than a very nice monitoring board.

I think patience is a virtue at this point.  Do lots of research and keep asking questions wherever you can, your instincts will eventually tell you what's right for you and your scene.

Check out soundbroker.com, maybe?
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Fletcher on November 02, 2009, 08:59:26 am
There are many consoles that can use modification of the center section... SSL's and Neve's included... so I wouldn't let that creep you out to much.

The used Neotek isn't a bad way to go so long as its a Neotek "Elite", which at least has a decent frame.  You can reinforce the frame on a "Series IIIc" which is also a great sounding desk, but if you don't it can be intermittent [like leaning on it could turn off a channel]... same with the good sounding Ameks [like the 2500 series... forget the "dead guy" consoles].

The ATB is pretty solid desk and Toft showed their latest version of the 80 Series at AES this year.  While I haven't had a chance to play with the new version of the 80 Series, I've known Malcolm for 15 or so years and know he is seriously committed to quality.

In my old room we had a Yamaha PM-2000 which is an old sound reinforcement desk that has GREAT headroom through out... yet we still felt compelled to modify the thing by adding a "2 Mix Summing Buss" that used Forssell 993 op-amps [which are like Hardy 990c's as they run on
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Jim Williams on November 02, 2009, 09:53:52 am
Interested Toft owners may want to review the extensive mods for the master section that cures it's design problems. I posted them over on that other forum, you know, the one that rhymes with "ear nuts".

It solves headroom and overload problems with .003% THD at +27 dbu outputs. It also solves the stereo crosstalk problems. I measured the 24 channel stereo crosstalk at -58 dbu. Modified it reduced that to -80 dbu. 20+ db improvment for a few dollars of parts. All parts that are to be substituted and added are shown in detail.
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: ,,deda,, Tim Porter on November 02, 2009, 12:11:21 pm
Fletcher wrote on Mon, 02 November 2009 07:59

There are many consoles that can use modification of the center section... SSL's and Neve's included... so I wouldn't let that creep you out to much.

The used Neotek isn't a bad way to go so long as its a Neotek "Elite", which at least has a decent frame.  You can reinforce the frame on a "Series IIIc" which is also a great sounding desk, but if you don't it can be intermittent [like leaning on it could turn off a channel]... same with the good sounding Ameks [like the 2500 series... forget the "dead guy" consoles].

The ATB is pretty solid desk and Toft showed their latest version of the 80 Series at AES this year.  While I haven't had a chance to play with the new version of the 80 Series, I've known Malcolm for 15 or so years and know he is seriously committed to quality.

In my old room we had a Yamaha PM-2000 which is an old sound reinforcement desk that has GREAT headroom through out... yet we still felt compelled to modify the thing by adding a "2 Mix Summing Buss" that used Forssell 993 op-amps [which are like Hardy 990c's as they run on
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Fletcher on November 02, 2009, 05:10:11 pm
deda wrote on Mon, 02 November 2009 12:11

Why the need for a summing mixer?


FX returns, things like that.  I've found [at least in my work] that it is rather difficult to get a full 24 track song mixed with 32 faders... I've found I usually need more like 48-50 inputs.  I use quite a few effects, usually a bunch of delays, couple of different reverbs and very often a fair bit of parallel compression which I bring up on separate faders [or on the summing mixer] and blend them to taste [often I will do the "blend" (level of the effect in relationship to the original sound) from the output knob on the device used for parallel compression]

Peace.
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: abtech on November 02, 2009, 06:14:15 pm
Fletcher wrote on Mon, 02 November 2009 08:59

There are many consoles that can use modification of the center section... SSL's and Neve's included... so I wouldn't let that creep you out to much.

The used Neotek isn't a bad way to go so long as its a Neotek "Elite", which at least has a decent frame.  You can reinforce the frame on a "Series IIIc" which is also a great sounding desk, but if you don't it can be intermittent [like leaning on it could turn off a channel]... same with the good sounding Ameks [like the 2500 series... forget the "dead guy" consoles].

The ATB is pretty solid desk and Toft showed their latest version of the 80 Series at AES this year.  While I haven't had a chance to play with the new version of the 80 Series, I've known Malcolm for 15 or so years and know he is seriously committed to quality.

In my old room we had a Yamaha PM-2000 which is an old sound reinforcement desk that has GREAT headroom through out... yet we still felt compelled to modify the thing by adding a "2 Mix Summing Buss" that used Forssell 993 op-amps [which are like Hardy 990c's as they run on
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Fletcher on November 02, 2009, 08:18:12 pm
Are you sure about that?  I have a friend who was looking for like 3 systems [120-140 faders] and mentioned that he had to try to find them used [I don't believe it was a "budget" issue, but I could be wrong].
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: abtech on November 03, 2009, 08:54:56 am
Here you go . . . http://www.martinsound.com/pd_fly.htm

They call me about every 30 days to see if I want to upgrade to the new system.
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on November 03, 2009, 09:16:12 am
Deda,

It does not say where you are located  -  So I can not suggest where---  However-  Marcel  Steered you right -  A Neotek  is what you need imo-

You can get a smaller NEW one and rock a summing mixer-  Or find a Used Elan-  Not sure why Fletcher did not mention the Elan as it is perfect-  Do your homework though as some of the frames are bad--  Early 90's Elans have Metal frames though..    Some of the consoles had Switch problems but that was from an earlier era..  

Elites are great  but I would prefer a newer Elan to an older Elite..

 http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/so-much-gear-so-l  ittle-time/14014d1136304202-my-new-neotek-elan-here-stormklo udstudios_pics_0-edited.jpg   It should look like this one-(Older ones are Grey newer ones are razor pimp BLACK)

I would prefer it to an Amek.

If you want to go new   here is your axe:

 http://www.sytek-audio-systems.com/products/consoles/elan2-t t/

Good Luck!

j
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: ,,deda,, Tim Porter on November 03, 2009, 01:56:02 pm
 Thanks so much for these links they are so much help. I'll be spending the day checking out all I can find on your recommendations.

My location has been a problem for the last year of looking. I'm from 100 west of Dallas/Ft.Worth Texas. This location is about 300 miles south of the dead center of the country. This has caused shipping/frieght issues because I want to pick up and hopefully audition any board.

From where I am in the center of the country and over the last year it seems all consoles are in Miami or Bangor Maine or Vancouver or San Diego. All of which are 2,000 plus miles, ONE WAY. This has caused me to pass on some good candidates.

Thanks again to all, regards ,,deda,,


seedyunderbelly.com wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 08:16

Deda,

It does not say where you are located  -  So I can not suggest where---  However-  Marcel  Steered you right -  A Neotek  is what you need imo-

You can get a smaller NEW one and rock a summing mixer-  Or find a Used Elan-  Not sure why Fletcher did not mention the Elan as it is perfect-  Do your homework though as some of the frames are bad--  Early 90's Elans have Metal frames though..    Some of the consoles had Switch problems but that was from an earlier era..  

Elites are great  but I would prefer a newer Elan to an older Elite..

  http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/so-much-gear-so-l   ittle-time/14014d1136304202-my-new-neotek-elan-here-stormklo udstudios_pics_0-edited.jpg   It should look like this one-(Older ones are Grey newer ones are razor pimp BLACK)

I would prefer it to an Amek.

If you want to go new   here is your axe:

  http://www.sytek-audio-systems.com/products/consoles/elan2-t t/

Good Luck!

j


Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Fletcher on November 03, 2009, 03:58:47 pm
,,deda,, Tim Porter wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 13:56

 This location is about 300 miles south of the dead center of the country.


Now that is a very interesting twist on being from the middle of nowhere!!!
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on November 03, 2009, 05:58:42 pm
Here Deda-  

http://www.sugarhillstudios.com/home.html

or you could find one in Dallas   I am guessing there is one-  People are generally awesome about letting others check out their boards--

Good Luck!

j
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Skullsessions on November 05, 2009, 02:18:29 pm
Fletcher wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 14:58

,,deda,, Tim Porter wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 13:56

 This location is about 300 miles south of the dead center of the country.


Now that is a very interesting twist on being from the middle of nowhere!!!


LaCrosse, Kansas - the affore mentioned center

Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: stevieeastend on February 15, 2010, 11:40:26 am
edit
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Spindrift on February 17, 2010, 04:50:18 pm
Good post Deda and fantastic input on an interesting problem.

My situation is similar to Deda's, I'm on a RADAR 24 Nyquist OTB but I do completely mobile recording. My setup fits in a trailer on my F350/truck-camper and I go to the acts and interesting venues to record.

Since I originally started out just tracking bands, I picked up an A&H ZED-428 28 input board to mainly do rough and cue mixes on.  Now, my ears are not golden by any means but I find this relatively cheap board able to make some decent mixes because I am paying attention to getting the source sounds to be right before recording them. I think that extra effort makes mixing much easier.  Right now, I'm very limited on my FX returns but it's something I'm able to live with since my track counts are relatively low.

I thought seriously about upgrading to a decent really good sounding board that is portable and the only thing that I think fits this bill is the Toft ATB32.  I was scared away by the stories of poor build quality in the first series thinking that it would never hold up in a flight case in a trailer going down some gravel roads.  I'm wondering if they've improved the build quality at all with subsequent models.

If I'm missing some options here other than the Toft, please speak up!  And thanks for reading.

Keith
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Fletcher on February 18, 2010, 08:38:57 am
Keith, have you thought about building the system into the trailer rather than just hauling it around?  ...then you could get a desk that doesn't need to be in a road case all the time.

Just a thought... not necessarily a good one.

Peace.
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Spindrift on February 18, 2010, 04:09:47 pm
Thanks Fletcher, that idea has crossed my mind but my style is to work with the musicians in the same room.

Thanks,
Keith
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: abtech on February 22, 2010, 06:20:06 pm
Why?  You can't use monitors then and headphones aren't my idea of ideal monitoring . . .
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: Fletcher on February 23, 2010, 10:03:02 am
Of course you can use monitors when you're working in the same room as the "talent".  Its harder to make critical listening decisions, but it can certainly be done.  You can get a good idea of mic selection and placement but I've always been loathe to go anywhere near an equalizer in those situations.

Peace.
Title: Re: You Guys Are 11 out of 11 BUT hardest one yet.
Post by: compasspnt on February 23, 2010, 10:06:58 am
http://www.remoteaudio.com/high_noise_headset/