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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => R/E/P Saloon => Topic started by: Sean Eldon Qualls on May 27, 2009, 07:14:56 pm

Title: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on May 27, 2009, 07:14:56 pm
Quote (or "pretty-much quote") belongs to the lovely Dave Hecht.

So, let's say you're seeing this girl (or guy, whatever excites your nether-region) for a few years...and a majority of the time you're with this person you know, 100%, that you can't actually stand to be around her/him. For many months, you wonder how you can comfortably get out of something you only do 'cos it's comfortable.

Well, it seems the easiest way out is to start leaving dirty laundry in another broad's house.

Today I was (thankfully?) banned permanently from the pool of booty engineers swimming with sharks, "Gearsl*tz".

Reason? Something awesome Dave Hecht said that I remind people of here in my signature.

Quote:

vBulletin Message

You have been banned for the following reason:
WTF is this? Sean Eldon Mercenary Audio sean@mercenary.com "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed." - Dave Hecht

Date the ban will be lifted: Never



I especially enjoy the 12-year-old-girl eBreviation of "What the fuck?"

Discuss.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on May 27, 2009, 07:44:01 pm
It's obvious you were consciously or subconsciously looking for a fight and you got one.  Why else would you post that?  Figuratively you wore a shirt saying "You're a dick.  Punch Me."  and so they did.

I don't visit gearslutz.  And it's your life. But I'm certainly not going to berate them for doing what you asked.


Barry

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on May 27, 2009, 08:45:05 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 19:44

It's obvious you were consciously or subconsciously looking for a fight and you got one.  Why else would you post that?  Figuratively you wore a shirt saying "You're a dick.  Punch Me."  and so they did.


Hello Barry, I hope all is well.

I'm not sure how much more direct I could have made my post.

Great T-shirt idea, by the way. I'd buy one.

It is also worth noting that the only place the Dave Hecht quote was visible was HERE. Not on Gearsl*tz.

Dave. You never call anymore. What the hey? Busy?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on May 27, 2009, 09:07:51 pm
Hi Sean,

I guess I didn't understand the analogy with the girlfriend.  Sorry.

But I suppose, for me, the circumstances are the same.  Why would you post that unless you wanted to make fun of gearslutz?  And they found out about it so they banned you.

I want 10 percent of the gross (not net) of the T-shirt sales if you start selling them.  The follow-up shirt would be "Ow. You punched me you dick."

Barry
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: marcel on May 27, 2009, 10:21:03 pm
Did they ban Dave too?

If they're gonna ban you for something Dave said...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 28, 2009, 12:15:08 am
Congrats, Sean.  I'm liking you more and more!  

Did Jules ban you?  I'm confused.  So you got banned for your signature in another forum?  

As you know, I recently quit there.  It was getting the worst of me.

It's not my place, and Jules can run it as he sees fit, but if it were me running it, I would end the tolerance of anonymity.  Also, you're not the first guy to get run out of there.  It's a shame that people who might have actually made a record at some point are dissuaded from participating, while the lunatics run the asylum.  It's like bros over pros.  Ross was banned, I was suspended once, you're banned, but George Necola is a moderator.

Maybe the current format gets him more traffic, but it's a shame that the people who aren't uneducated or misinformed either get banned, or give up in frustration because the current policies encourage anonymous jackasses to act however they want.  

Like I said, it's his prerogative.  He's got bills to pay, so he needs to do whatever he feels keeps the traffic up.  
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Podgorny on May 28, 2009, 02:11:23 am
New Signature!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on May 28, 2009, 04:01:54 am
I like how they treat CONSTRUCTIVE criticism...............BANNED

I say constructive as it may have encouraged some self awareness------where it was "unneeded and unwaranted"   and BANNED!

Sean!


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Peter Beckmann on May 28, 2009, 06:00:21 am
Way to go Sean.

Gives you more time to hang out over here!!


Peter
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Jules on May 28, 2009, 06:06:43 am
Yeah, you really hated it round there a lot didn't you?

index.php/fa/12381/0/


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Fletcher on May 28, 2009, 07:37:50 am
Banning someone for a signature file they've had for months [if not a year] is pretty ridiculous... as is this thread [hence it's new home].

Sean, you need to realize that it's not a democracy over there... Jules, you can either be a compassionate dictator or an oppressive dictator... but not both.

The fact of the matter is that the traffic is quite high [interestingly, not quite as high as this sites, but neither here nor there] and at the end of the day it's a simple question of "quantity vs. quality".

I'm quite bummed that "So Much Gear, So Little Time" forum has supplanted the"Low
End Theory" forum and that "High End" has a ridiculously low set bar... but that's just me.

Overall, it's a nice distraction... but finding serious information is pretty few and far between.

Ce la vie.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on May 28, 2009, 08:32:53 am
Fletcher wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 07:37

Ce la vie.


Agreed. And thanks for moving this, shoulda been here in the first place.

Jules wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 06:06

Yeah, you really hated it round there a lot didn't you?


Couple posts a day. Not that bad.

In my opinion, you don't have the sack to be commenting on this. No, I didn't really like it there. Ever hear of self-deprecation? I'm not the first guy and I'm not the last.

The childish (there really isn't a better word) reason that I was banned bothers me...but actually being banned doesn't bother me. To me, it seems I was targeted and there's a bit of vendetta involved...'cos I really didn't do anything. I think you picked the wrong guy to make an example.

I'll kinda miss "The Moan Zone". That's some of the funniest shit on the internet.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 28, 2009, 09:01:51 am
Well I have a degree in Computer Science and I've made a few posts at Gearslutz...

as for misinformed...

depends on who you listen to... you've definately GOT to watch out for the gearpimps over there Shocked ...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 28, 2009, 11:23:46 am
To make it clear, I left because I didn't like my own behavior there.  I could simply not disengage from the trolls.  I'm going to miss Kittonian trying to sell me a Peluso mic, though!

Jules, on a serious note, why do you allow anonymity?  Don't you think it would improve the tenor of the discourse if that weren't tolerated?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Tomas Danko on May 28, 2009, 11:39:47 am
Practically speaking, they are moderating outside the boundaries of their community. (Meaning, they can't moderate what you say elsewhere but they do expand their boundaries for the community to include anything you state elsewhere in their evaluation of your access to the community).
If you behave totally fine there, why censor you because of something you say elsewhere?

It's like banning someone because you don't like what he or she stands for, no matter how polite he or she is within the community in question. Actually, that's pretty much the only reason for their action.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on May 28, 2009, 11:48:24 am
I'm no gearslutz fan.  As I've said elsewhere, I registered before reading any posts (that's how confident I was about liking the people I thought I'd find).  Having registered and having begun to read some posts, I immediately (no kidding)wrote to have my name removed from registration.  All of that took 15 minutes.

Having retold this story, I do feel that if I knew someone was making fun of me (anywhere) and were now going to come into my (internet) home with the possibility of ridiculing me in my own house, that I'd remove them.  I wouldn't need that kind of headache.  I can't control what you say about me elsewhere, but I would prevent it in my own house.

If you don't want mud on you, don't play in the mud.


Barry
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Jules on May 28, 2009, 11:51:19 am
J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 16:23

Jules, on a serious note, why do you allow anonymity?  Don't you think it would improve the tenor of the discourse if that weren't tolerated?


Not everyone wants their real name out there, there are a lot of reasons. To list a few, people wanting to keep their opinions separate from any association with their employers, people with web stalking issues not wanting their every movement to be tracked by google, general privacy  issues and even 'amusement' (Slipperman and Mixerman, both well known audio forum personalities, enjoy the game of operating a secret identity on line)

On a privacy note JJ, I recall following a link in your sig file a few years ago and was surprised to see it lead to a general online photo album which contained not only studio shots you had collected but also what seemed like all your wedding photographs (and best wishes for that even though it was a while ago!). I see that has been made private now. Not everyone wants people to access everything about them simply because they post on line.


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on May 28, 2009, 12:07:41 pm
Jules wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 11:51

(Slipperman and Mixerman, both well known audio forum personalities, enjoy the game of operating a secret identity on line)


Slipperman is not a completely anonymous human being. There weren't many Amek 9098i's built.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 28, 2009, 01:06:46 pm
Jules, the wedding pictures are no longer there, because the marriage is no longer there.  But just because my life was an open book doesn't mean that everybody else's has to be.  All I want is a name I can look up on allmusic.com.

I can't say I agree with the position, though.  Ross and Terry's forum makes identity a criteria, as does Klaus', and I think the only person who got to have an exception was Mark Chalecki, when he was at Capitol, but that was with permission from Brad.  In order to protect maybe a total of maybe eight people, you're letting hundreds of micreants run riot, and say things that I really doubt they would say without the veil of anonymity.  

Also, I would think that you would want to protect the gear manufacturers who give you ad dollars better by not letting anonymous people, with questionable motives, experience or credentials, disparage their gear, without any repercussion, or ability to call the credibility into account.  Honestly, what's more important?  Slipperman and Mixerman's identity, which everybody in the business knows anyhow, or the quality of discussion?  

A friend who is a very well known and popular engineer (whose name I'm not disclosing because he told me this in confidence) told me that because of the quality of discourse, he stopped going there.  He got tired of some guy, who for all he knew was living in his mom's basement, telling him how the last record sounded like crap.  Guys like that have a little more respect when we can all see who they are, and what they've done.  Wouldn't it be a bigger draw for the neophyte engineers are the bulk of your audience to have known famous engineer, than an anonymous Slipperman?  (I'll tell you privately who it was, if you want.)

Maybe it's time to reexamine that logic, is all I'm saying.  I've seen it over and over on different forums, no matter the subject matter: Anonymity emboldens the cowards to take pot shots.  Full disclosure encourages civilized behavior.  Sunshine is the best disinfectant, as they say.  

I mean, it's your place, you're a nice guy, and I'm glad it's the success you've made it into.  But for me, it could be a more attractive place to visit.  
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Jules on May 28, 2009, 01:17:24 pm
Anyway Sean, now you know I think its two-faced of you to trawl the GS community for sales as 'one of the gang' and then to 'amusingly' carry round a message slagging them all off elsewhere.

Like the hilariously accidentally banned 'Malice', I hadn't actually meant to ban you "forever", (despite that being the message presented to you when you tried to log in..) I merely wanted hold you up on the diss. That achieved, you are 'unbanned', your temporary suspension has is lifted.

So, back to work as usual then?


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Jules on May 28, 2009, 01:44:25 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 18:06

Jules, the wedding pictures are no longer there, because the marriage is no longer there.  But just because my life was an open book doesn't mean that everybody else's has to be.  All I want is a name I can look up on allmusic.com.

I can't say I agree with the position, though.  Ross and Terry's forum makes identity a criteria, as does Klaus', and I think the only person who got to have an exception was Mark Chalecki, when he was at Capitol, but that was with permission from Brad.  In order to protect maybe a total of maybe eight people, you're letting hundreds of micreants run riot, and say things that I really doubt they would say without the veil of anonymity.  

Also, I would think that you would want to protect the gear manufacturers who give you ad dollars better by not letting anonymous people, with questionable motives, experience or credentials, disparage their gear, without any repercussion, or ability to call the credibility into account.  Honestly, what's more important?  Slipperman and Mixerman's identity, which everybody in the business knows anyhow, or the quality of discussion?  

A friend who is a very well known and popular engineer (whose name I'm not disclosing because he told me this in confidence) told me that because of the quality of discourse, he stopped going there.  He got tired of some guy, who for all he knew was living in his mom's basement, telling him how the last record sounded like crap.  Guys like that have a little more respect when we can all see who they are, and what they've done.  Wouldn't it be a bigger draw for the neophyte engineers are the bulk of your audience to have known famous engineer, than an anonymous Slipperman?  (I'll tell you privately who it was, if you want.)

Maybe it's time to reexamine that logic, is all I'm saying.  I've seen it over and over on different forums, no matter the subject matter: Anonymity emboldens the cowards to take pot shots.  Full disclosure encourages civilized behavior.  Sunshine is the best disinfectant, as they say.  

I mean, it's your place, you're a nice guy, and I'm glad it's the success you've made it into.  But for me, it could be a more attractive place to visit.  


All points well taken, will be borne in mind and appreciated.. Thank you.

re this

J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 18:06

Honestly, what's more important?  Slipperman and Mixerman's identity, which everybody in the business knows anyhow, or the quality of discussion?


That's a tricky one, er....Slipperman?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on May 28, 2009, 01:46:06 pm
Jules wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 13:17

Anyway Sean, now you know I think its two-faced of you to trawl the GS community for sales as 'one of the gang' and then to 'amusingly' carry round a message slagging them all off elsewhere.


I spent a great deal of my time there on the guitar forum, the music forum, the "everything else" forum...I actually encourage you to go through my posts and find severe examples of me ramming a piece of equipment up someone's ass for the purpose of sales, the way MANY other members of Gearsl*tz do.

Remember, I don't work for Mercenary on commission. No one does. Of course I would love to see our little shop live long and prosper (and we do/will), but I'm not trolling message boards looking for business. Sorry to bust your bubble.

Jules wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 13:17

Like the hilariously accidentally banned 'Malice', I hadn't actually meant to ban you "forever", (despite that being the message presented to you when you tried to log in..) I merely wanted hold you up on the diss. That achieved, you are 'unbanned',your temporary suspension has been lifted.


I realize I don't know you very well, Jules, but this is coming off as a crock to me. How many parameters are there for banning someone? I count three. "Who, why, how long?"

"Accidentally" having the term of the ban as a permanent thing does not seem very possible under these circumstances. I'd hope you pay closer attention to detail in your recordings than you do with your job.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 28, 2009, 02:04:13 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 13:06

A friend who is a very well known and popular engineer (whose name I'm not disclosing because he told me this in confidence) told me that because of the quality of discourse, he stopped going there.  He got tired of some guy, who for all he knew was living in his mom's basement, telling him how the last record sounded like crap.  Guys like that have a little more respect when we can all see who they are, and what they've done.  Wouldn't it be a bigger draw for the neophyte engineers are the bulk of your audience to have known famous engineer, than an anonymous Slipperman?  (I'll tell you privately who it was, if you want.)




Can I guess???  hmmmm  initials JJP by chance?  Rhymes with bukake???

You guys are too much!  Start your own damn forum and run it however you please!

With affection and a dose of humor,  Laughing
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 28, 2009, 02:11:59 pm
Sean Eldon Qualls wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 13:46

Jules wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 13:17

Anyway Sean, now you know I think its two-faced of you to trawl the GS community for sales as 'one of the gang' and then to 'amusingly' carry round a message slagging them all off elsewhere.


I spent a great deal of my time there on the guitar forum, the music forum, the "everything else" forum...I actually encourage you to go through my posts and find severe examples of me ramming a piece of equipment up someone's ass for the purpose of sales, the way MANY other members of Gearsl*tz do.




That's probably true in your world, but to someone like me, it looks exactly like Jules described.  

I bet money you'll be right back to posting at Gearslutz... I'm SURE your employer would like that.  I may be wrong though.  I'd guess that there are a few sales to be had through Gearslutz association, even if a personal commission isn't attached.  With that said, I am a fan of Mercenary and do find value in much of the posts your crew has made over the years...

I think it is nice of Jules to lift the 'ban' and you should be a stand up pimp and remove the tasteless quote from your sig here!  

Just my $.00001
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: studio1117 on May 28, 2009, 02:13:53 pm
Wow, I think maybe I was the first to be banned from Gearslutz!! Hurray for me!!!
Actually I would disagree with some in here, I think that Gearslutz has wonderful, wonderful potential. I gleaned a lot of info from the site (maybe that means I'm a moron)
I was actually a bit pissed that they banned me, I felt like I was fighting the fight they should have been fighting.

    I got into a long argument with the usual douche suspects about the new TLM67. I simply thought it was wrong to allow posts about how the mic sucked before it came out and that slamming a company (which I do sell for BTW, but not the reason) without anything to back it up was wrong. Posts that read nothing more than "Neumann sucks" are uninformative nor useful, yet it seems gearslutz embraces this amateur style. I have no problem with a post that says "I have used several new Neumann's and they sucked so I'd imagine the new one won't be much better" that is an informed opinion. "Neumann sucks" is not.

   In the process Gearslutz' obviously beloved gearpimp to the hip hop crowd Tony Belmont goes out and find pics posted on my other websites and brings them into the mix on one of the threads.(He thought it was somehow insulting to me...funny as I had posted the pics on my own websites, but I don't proclaim to know how that guy thinks) I quite thought it was funny that I get booted for attempting to make these obvious mentally challenged individuals use the forum in the proper way and yet Tony "I never add anything useful" Belmont stays behind to spread his wealth of information. Jules WTF is up with Gearslutz? Who IS running the show over there? You are letting possibly one of the best forums for audio on the net be hacked up with morons. You have some really great people go on the site only to run away and hide from the horror that is 1/2 the people on Gearslutz. I think the signature line from the guy you all just banned  is to the point and frankly honest about the state of your site.
  As a guy who owns several of his own businesses I'd gladly take any abuse I could about my business if it meant it would improve what I do. I see the guys sig line as a way for you to reach out rather than slay yet another potentially good poster to protect the worthless, to embrace him and say "why do you feel that way?". Anytime anyone ever called, stopped by etc to let me know about something they were unhappy with about my business, I thanked my lucky stars that they were giving me another chance to keep them as a customer. You've got a good thing going man, clean it up. I'll gladly head up the "This thread is Bull$hit" forum.
UPDATE
  Oops, just saw that many of my issues had been addressed in a few previous posts by the time I posted this. Jules, I appreciate your taking the suggestions to help your site and I hope it continues, as I said you are sitting on a stream with a lot of little flakes of gold that could lead to the motherload. Keep it up.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on May 28, 2009, 02:25:16 pm
Kris wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 14:11

That's probably true in your world, but to someone like me, it looks exactly like Jules described.  

I bet money you'll be right back to posting at Gearslutz...

::snip::

Just my $.00001


Well, I certainly hope you've got more than $.00001 for this bet. I've gotta pay off some new furniture, and a little extra padding for my fall vacation wouldn't hurt.

I think I've made my stance on the matter quite clear. I was on Gearsl*tz before I was at Mercenary and my style of posting didn't magically change when I got up to Massachusetts. If this is the way that place is run, I choose not to participate, and I choose to let people know exactly what happened.

I never said that EVERYONE at Gearsl*tz is a moron. I think there's a lot of cool guys there, lots of smart guys, quite a few people that are actually working a couple hundred days a year...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 28, 2009, 02:38:18 pm
Well I didn't say I'd bet YOU money... that would be plain stupid!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 28, 2009, 05:20:59 pm
Kris wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 11:04

Can I guess???  hmmmm  initials JJP by chance?  Rhymes with bukake???

You guys are too much!  Start your own damn forum and run it however you please!

With affection and a dose of humor,  Laughing


Well, no it wasn't JJP, but as you know, I got censored by Jules for the term "sonic bukkake."  LOL.  

JJP and I know each other, but I wouldn't say we are friends.  Very Happy

Not that he cares what I think, anyway.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: mgod on May 28, 2009, 05:46:27 pm
I propose Sean be made a moderator on Gearlsutz, thus solving the problem of his complaints about it.

DS
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on May 28, 2009, 05:49:41 pm
mgod wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:46

I propose Sean be made a moderator on Gearlsutz, thus solving the problem of his complaints about it.

DS


Hah! Just gimme The Moan Zone! Even altered privileges where I can only see that particular forum!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 28, 2009, 07:56:06 pm
I second the motion.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on May 28, 2009, 10:04:36 pm
Kris wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 19:56

I second the motion.


I actually don't. I mean, a week-long paid gig as temporary Moan Zone moderator MIGHT be funny...but...

While deleting the bookmark from Firefox, I clicked it one last time to see that I wasn't banned. I logged out. My brain simply doesn't need that.

Should I use this thread to post fun and delicious dinner recipes now? I don't want it to go to waste...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 28, 2009, 10:34:10 pm
You win!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on May 28, 2009, 11:22:43 pm
Jules did have a funny tug when he showed the posting history,  And then reinstated you  I think you guys should be pals again!

j
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on May 29, 2009, 12:10:00 am
edit:  

Thanks Kris,      for suggesting I delete the commentary on the newly deleted thread over yonder-  

Wow  things are looking up!

I am impressed by Jules too.

cheers -j

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: marcel on May 29, 2009, 12:16:46 am
I still want to know what happened to Dave...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Hank Alrich on May 29, 2009, 12:30:43 am
He's gone all to Hecht!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Edvaard on May 29, 2009, 01:10:33 am

"Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"

The MOST apt description of American politics and media.

TY

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Dave Hecht on May 29, 2009, 01:58:30 am
Originally wasn't going post on this thread, but I did promise Sean I'd make a few comments.

 As for my original quote, it was basically due to the same things JJ already pointed out. Total anonymity lets the morons take over the asylum. If you want to call someone an asshole, or bash a  manufacturer or their product, that's fine. Just man up, grow a set, use your real name and take responsibility for your comments. I realize that not everyone over there falls into that category, but enough do to make me uninterested in the entire forum.

 I've noticed a lot less of those posts here, and I agree, it's because of our full name policy.

 As for me being banned over there, well I don't actually post there, so no point really, but no I haven't been ( at least until this post goes up).

and Sean, I believe I promised you a new quote. How's this:

 Gearslutz: so much misinformation, so little time.

 If that don't work for you, kick it over to Adam. I know he was feeling left out, not being banned and all.

Dave Hecht

 
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Larrchild on May 29, 2009, 03:11:14 am
Banned-Camp.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Fletcher on May 29, 2009, 07:59:30 am
Jules wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 13:17

Anyway Sean, now you know I think its two-faced of you to trawl the GS community for sales as 'one of the gang' and then to 'amusingly' carry round a message slagging them all off elsewhere.


Whoa.

NOBODY from M-A "trolls for sales".   We go there to pass along good information while doing "effective public relations".  The definition of "public relations" is when you gain "goodwill, acceptance and understanding for your product or service".

Goodwill?  Taking the time to explain things, share professional experiences, outline a technique, shoot a joke.

Acceptance?  Must be... while I've been banned numerous times, and have stopped posting for a few months here and there when I'd had enough of the bullshit... I get numerous PM's asking me why I've stopped posting... and when I contribute again comments on "how good it is that I'm posting on GS again" [ass kissers... all of them].

Understanding?  I think we have established [the Mercenary "we"] that we're pretty "no bullshit" when it comes to this stuff.  We don't just have an "unconditional return policy", we live it.  We are very discriminating about what lines we will handle, and more importantly, which ones we don't.  I have seen numerous posts where people have said "well it's sold in Mercenary... it must be good".

None of those aspects lead to "trolling for sales".  They add value to the community [good information, dissemination of ideas, concepts and techniques] while showing that the people who work at our shop actually know what they're talking about.

We'll leave the blatant "pimping" to the Kittonian's and Tony Belmont's of this world.  To that end you can very often find someone from Mercenary recommending product that is not listed on our website.  You can find all kinds of technique posts.  You can also find a whole boat load of posts that say _______ (which we sell) probably won't be the best tool for the job.

With that comes our irreverent sense of humor, we have a severe lack of tolerance for bullshit.  It comes with the territory.  We have a studio in the building that is used damn near every night and weekend when the shop that shares space with it is closed.  

The facility has changed a lot since you were there Jules... what used to be a "machine room" for the bike shop is now a very well stocked, modified LEDE control room.  It's kinda like a "home studio" in that it's not very big... but if I do say so myself, it's quite well designed.

The sense of humor part is pretty much endemic to the engineering world.  You used to have a quite irreverent sense of humor which seems to have all but vanished.  Engineers in general seem to be quite intelligent and observant people.  This character trait leads to the observation and dissemination of those observations, especially where irony [and flat out stupidity] is concerned.

With all due respect, I would suggest you take a good hard look at what that site has become.  American Idol discussions in a "gear" forum?  A little "social" discourse here and there is fine... but it seems to be the staple of "so much gear" these days.  RODE mics being discussed in "High End"? Focusrite considered "High End"?  Spare me.  That forum was once at about the level of this set of forums, but not any more.  Now it's rather difficult to tell the difference between that forum and "low end theory".

You have a good product in those forums.  Hell, my company was your first advertiser, and continues to advertise 7 years later.  We will probably continue to advertise until the day when the forums have disintegrated far below the level of products we provide... how long that takes will be determined by you, and your moderating staff.

I quite enjoy the community you have created... but dare say that as the population increases you should be either expanding your moderation staff... and when you have really good ones [like Chris Lambrechts], it might be in your best interest to find a way to hang on to them.

Peace.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: zmix on May 29, 2009, 08:18:41 am
Larrchild wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 03:11

Banned-Camp.


How about making some Gearslutz T-shirts for the next AES convention:  "I'm with the Banned"
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Jules on May 29, 2009, 09:35:09 am
Larrchild wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 08:11

Banned-Camp.


That's very funny!

zmix wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 13:18

How about making some Gearslutz T-shirts for the next AES convention:  "I'm with the Banned"



Hi-Larious too!


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 29, 2009, 09:48:54 am
I knew Jules still had a sense of humor...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 29, 2009, 10:11:00 am
seedyunderbelly.com wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 00:10

I have never spent much time over there  -  It was the Helios thread that made me get involved here..   after all of this "bliss"  I was curious   what IS going on

Here is the 1st thread I opened up

       http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/3 93622-women-better-audio-engineers.html


I am confused that this bullshit flies




When it's reported to the mods it doesn't... just like it wouldn't here.  Try the link now.

p.s. you should delete your post above which quotes that b.s.  It is plain rude, extremely disrespectful, and shouldn't be on record anywhere.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on May 29, 2009, 10:30:11 am
Done,  Good Idea xs.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 29, 2009, 11:16:46 am
You're a good man Seedyunderbelly, despite your seedy underbelly...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Paul LaPlaca on May 29, 2009, 11:41:40 am
J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 16:20



Well, no it wasn't JJP, but as you know, I got censored by Jules for the term "sonic bukkake."  LOL.  




Sonic Bukkake?

Best band name, EVER.

Razz
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: PP on May 29, 2009, 12:12:28 pm
Quote: “Jules, the wedding pictures are no longer there, because the marriage is no longer there.”




Dear J.J.

I would just like to express my heartfelt sadness, at the difficulty, strife and pain all this must have caused you.

I sincerely wish you the very best for your future, and genuinely trust with time it will be a wonderful future with very great, lasting love and happiness for you.




In the mean time.

Perhaps you will enjoy this thoughtful comedy.

Turn the sound up and please watch it through J.J. "This Too Shall Pass".

                 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z-nwWEpHdQ&feature=relat ed




Quote: “Being a woman in this industry is I won’t say it wasn’t a challenge, because it was, in many different ways.”

- Snipped for Shortness -

Quote: “My way of dealing with that was not to focus on what they may be thinking or saying, but simply do my work and be the best.”





The best way to offset any form of prejudice, be it sexual, colour or indeed racial prejudice, is to be awfully good at what you do.

For then, influencial people will look to you with respect, will be ready to call upon your services, and will want to benefit from your essential skills.

Everyone wants to work with, for and use the best people; be the best and you will find work, and overcome the inherent complex insecurities of far lesser personalities and individuals.

In my experience a woman has to often be about twice as good as a man at what she does, to be regarded as equal with a man. The outstanding women I have known in various fields, far outstrip their male competition.

Sadly this Forum has had some truly wise, extremely experienced, female contributors, but lost them over time.

And no-one’s asking why?




Quote: “I think there's a lot of cool guys there, lots of smart guys, quite a few people that are actually working a couple hundred days a year...”




Well for me personally, it’s really quite a lot more than that, with the additions of early starts and late finishes most of the time.

I can’t remember the last time I wasn’t busy, even when I had time off work. Inevitably my postings are becoming, ever increasingly shorter.

But to give you some idea Sean, in 2008, two of my core business ‘interests’ achieved outstandingly impressive growth rates, against the Global Industry Trends, in a business environments far more difficult, hostile  and competitive than anything the Music Industry has ever seen at any time.

This continuing upward market did not just happen by itself. It was the result of an incredible amount of hard work, extensive restructuring, continual adaptation and flexibility, continual change pre-empting consumer requirements by ultra sensitisation to highly volatile, wildly fluctuating market conditions.

All wisely advised and well guided by incredibly well informed ‘intelligence information’, with the concomitant highly detailed  forward planning, necessary to act, to deal with change before it happened, being ready for what came, competently able to deal with it when it did, expecting and anticipating every difficulty and making allowance for every foreseeable contingency possible.

Yet hilariously, those comforting themselves with the luxuriously false benefit of ceaselessly bemoaning the market difficulties they face, have no time at all to pay attention to anything I or others (like Steve Albini) that are bucking immensely powerful Industry trends have to write, and laughably dismiss our genuinely authoritative experience out of hand, complaining of us that “we write as if we think we actually know what we are writing about”.

Of course, our Bank Managers know that we do.  20% growth.

In a very difficult year, is a note worthy achievement.

And it is indeed, tremendously great.

Compensation.




I am reminded of introduction to the Lyric of a Barbara Streisand song.

“It’s not easy to be happy ..

Sometime’s it’s more ‘comfortable’ to be sad!”




With respect.

The salient point is..

Whilst some are rolling about in self pity, others are picking up their kit and moving on to new heights.

Both Shrinkage and Growth present considerable challenges, on a day to day basis that have to be dealt with, and that’s very difficult, to live with either way, it truly is.

But having long and deep personal experience of both scenarios, involving quite breathtakingly incredible sums of investment, I do have a strongly distinct preference for which scenario, I would rather live with, and it just doesn't happen by itself.




Perhaps it is the price of experience.

But Self Pity is far too expensive a luxury to afford.

And far, far too egocentrically self centred, for any sound philosophy of Life.




Quote: “Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"

- Snipped for Shortness -

Quote: “Gearslutz: so much misinformation, so little time.”




I fully

appreciate


The import of both

Your serious points

And your humorous assertions.

Indeed, I have great sympathy with your point of view.

However, I have to tell you that, generally it is the case that when I have posted on Gearslutz it is because I have seen some criticism of the site here on P.S.W. And subsequently have gone there in order to attempt to understand, becoming properly cognizant of the criticism being made, and indeed, to clearly post, strong positive content rich information that will contribute very constructively to the debate.

It is the case that I have encountered and been treated with, respect, and have never had to fight it out with anyone, to make extremely substantive points there. I haven’t got into any volatile arguments either, even when discussing subjects outside The Recording Industry, where there naturally is an extremely wide divergence of opinion.

Please consider the very real possibility that there are people, unlike myself, who would feel absolutely compelled to enter a debate, precisely because there was misinformation, and to animadvert deprecatorily the notion that these individuals lacked education is an absurdism.

On the contrary, they may be individuals of the uttermost integrity, and such people in my experience at least, are without exception, absolute leaders in their particular field of expertise.




Is P.S.W. elitist?

So completely informed that it is more interesting to debate the nonsense of others?

Or is there a ‘communal inferiority complex’ here within certain of us, that is powerfully alleviated when they can point to the fact that others are so far below them?

Does it stem from the inner frustration of thinking so highly of ourselves, whilst a beguilingly fallacious and coercively imposturous self image is stunningly challenged outright, by the audacious act of being banned from Gearslutz, of all places?

I’m simply trying to comprehend ‘the inner dynamic’ that is at work, and why these strong criticisms are continually being made at P.S.W. in particular, as often as they are?

If the site is truly as impoverished as it’s made out to be, I would have considered it highly inadvisable.

To ever allow, a single thought about the place, into my head.

I value the real estate too much to ever waste it.

Or is all it simply a matter.

Of old fashioned.

Competition?




Quote:“Discuss.”




Very well!

The trouble is. If you insist on throwing ‘mud’ about, when everyone looks at you, plainly, they will see your hands are ‘dirty’.

The truth is. As well as the truly brilliant Moderators hereabouts like Terry Manning and Brad Blackwood along with a great many others on P.S.W.

Gearslutz has some equally fine Moderators, and I would particularly draw your attention to Steve Remote ‘Remoteness’, Jay Frigalletto and Riccardo Ricco as quite exemplary.


I completely understand the criticisms that individuals make of both P.S.W. and Gearslutz from time to time. Both are worthy of criticism occasionally, as am I, and all who are genuinely honest with themselves.

For be sure that nothing in this world is perfect, and both Forum Posters and Moderators alike, are in a real learning curve, as they begin to mature in their practical dealings with this innovative communication medium.

It is easy to be a critic, but is that really what anyone at P.S.W. or at Gearslutz genuinely wants to be known as?  For when people start to criticise, I always remember the words of Herbert Von Karajan.

“I have travelled the whole world, and have yet to see a statue in honour of a critic”.

Seasoned critic's are all straw men!




Personally, What I do find totally unacceptable is seeing Moderators of one Forum, regardless, irrespective, and irregardless of who it might be, criticise and run down the Moderators of another Forum.

Moderators of all people really ought to be setting a model example, and to be mutually supportive of one another, working together.

In a reciprocally beneficial manner, that truly benefits everyone involved in this great World Wide Web.


Which was invented, as you know, by a man from Queens College, Oxford.  

I was just there yesterday, as a matter of fact!

Irregardless..




We need.

Moderators all can respect.

Maturity instead of Immaturity.

Cooperation instead of Condemnation.

Responsibility instead of Irresponsibility.

Mutual Support instead of Mutual Slander.




Forgive a personal example..

A while back I was accused by certain individuals on P.S.W. of posting anonymously.

In actual fact, I have truly abided quite faithfully by the Forum rules, and used my real name, the name on my birth certificate, the name I was born with.

Now, the possibility has to be faced that there is a certain symmetry that creates a beautifully ironic knot of humour, in the fact that were I to use a false name, contravening Forum guidelines, that could indeed perhaps enable the miscreants to discover ‘my identity’.


But I have abided by the Forum rules entirely, and am therefore, entirely unworthy of criticism on their stated point of accusation. As you might expect I carefully crafted and scribed an incredibly robust, quite hilarious reply that entirely scotched the accusation, intimately dissected both the subconscious psychology of the miscreants, and their personal habitual practises and capped it all by openly proving their wild allegations to be completely false, and entirely without any foundation.

But to post it, would have absolutely crushed at least one of the individuals involved, and severely damaged another, making them complete and utter prime time laughing stocks. Upon reflection, I determined that to deploy such highly combustible, annihilative devices, wasn’t at all the outcome, I wished to see for the genuine and lasting good of the Forum.

So I refrained from replying at all, seeing my accusers as unworthy of a reply, for no reply was necessary, as I had entirely abided by the rules.

I for one believe, it is the good of the Forums that most Posters on all Forums everywhere, have at heart.

So I quietly withdrew, and ignored the false accusations of posting anonymously.

I rose above the childish fray of absolute immaturity.

So can every single one of us.

If we genuinely try!  




Because someone writes complete nonsense,

We are not compelled to honour them with the dignity of a reply.


In fact, upon reflection I would say, that we are honour bound not to bestow upon any such individual so deeply profound an apotheosis, as a sincere reply from anyone of genuine class, quality, depth, experience and distinction.

And I am entirely humbled and greatly privileged to write, that there are many such individuals of superlative quality to be found here at P.S.W. and at Gearslutz, if you truly look.

That there are not more, and that many have been lost, is a tragic testament, a microcosm of all the multi-faceted problems of this world.

But I am persuaded that some of us have a lasting and true answer, a genuine foil, and thus can reveal the proper way forward.

Shining light, perception, discernment, understanding conjugated and commingled with deeply profound wisdom.




P



P.S. When Einstein came to Oxford in 1931, he was already an international celebrity.

After one of his lectures a blackboard was preserved and has become a kind of relic. It is the most famous object in the Museum of the History of Science.

http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/blackboard/einstein-l.htm

It is a simple explanation of the expansion of the Universe.




An exhibition marked the centenary of the Special Theory of Relativity by inviting a number of well-known people in Britain today to chalk on blackboards the same size as Einstein’s.


Gallery.

http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/blackboard/gallery.htm


Brian Eno..

http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/blackboard/eno-l.htm


Michael Heath... And here's the point.

http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/blackboard/heath-l.htm




Must do Better!




P.P.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: studio1117 on May 29, 2009, 02:06:53 pm
Possibly the longest reply in history. Razz
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on May 29, 2009, 02:38:06 pm
Kris wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 10:16

You're a good man Seedyunderbelly, despite your seedy underbelly...


You come over with a rag and a bottle of rubbing alcohol  and we'll clean that thing up together.

xj
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: TRA on May 29, 2009, 02:47:26 pm
Jules wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 10:51

J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 16:23

Jules, on a serious note, why do you allow anonymity?  Don't you think it would improve the tenor of the discourse if that weren't tolerated?


Not everyone wants their real name out there, there are a lot of reasons. To list a few, people wanting to keep their opinions separate from any association with their employers......



Exactly. I have to remain anonymous because my personal opinions have reflected onto the company I work for in the past. It wasn't very hard for a certain someone to connect the dots, and I landed in a heap of trouble. I'm an opinionated jerk with zero filter between my brain and mouth. Even though I wasn't advertising who I worked for someone did figure it out, and it didn't pan out well.  
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on May 29, 2009, 02:52:03 pm
TRA wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 13:47

Jules wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 10:51

J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 16:23

Jules, on a serious note, why do you allow anonymity?  Don't you think it would improve the tenor of the discourse if that weren't tolerated?


Not everyone wants their real name out there, there are a lot of reasons. To list a few, people wanting to keep their opinions separate from any association with their employers......



Exactly. I have to remain anonymous because my personal opinions have reflected onto the company I work for in the past. It wasn't very hard for a certain someone to connect the dots, and I landed in a heap of trouble.




Sure there are benefits to both sides.  However  if it is at the expense of the forum at large  then  whats the point-  And without the context of whom is speaking I guess the opinions the "protected" have  are ultimately worth less anyway.

How do you sort the wheat from the chaff and the seed from the shaft?

j
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Larrchild on May 29, 2009, 03:18:05 pm
There are subtle signs to look for.
If their entire repertoire of equipment resides in their signature, I become skeptical early on.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: TRA on May 29, 2009, 04:48:48 pm

Quote:



Sure there are benefits to both sides.  However  if it is at the expense of the forum at large  then  whats the point-  And without the context of whom is speaking I guess the opinions the "protected" have  are ultimately worth less anyway.

How do you sort the wheat from the chaff and the seed from the shaft?

j



Very true. I definitely see both sides, but dislike that some forums would ban me if I don't include my real name.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: danickstr on May 29, 2009, 10:28:53 pm
I have gotten useful information from gearslutz, but make a habit of avoiding it out of some ass-backward sense of loyalty to this place.  Go figger.  I will search it for info, but will not post, or at least have not been moved to for quite awhile.  

C'est la vie.

I had an avatar here for some time with the dude with bad rocker hair wearing a green face.  I enjoyed mocking him, but that does conflict with my Zen nature, even though I will never achieve master status with anger.  Me like hitting thing too much, even figuratively.   Sometimes the only way to stop an asshole from shitting on everyone is to fock it.  Smile (south Prk)
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on May 30, 2009, 03:08:10 am
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 30, 2009, 03:19:37 am
P.P., thanks, but it's all worked out beautifully.  As Ed Cherney said about my girlfriend, "That's one hell of a consolation prize."

The only thing that is more infuriating than the anonymity are the posts that all have the same fucking theme: "What's the best (blank) to use with (blank)?"  

This is the single dumbest fucking idea ever, and it has pervaded through that community there, purely because it serves the pimps well.  Before gear forums, I never once called another engineer and said, "Hey, what pre should I use on the U87 for a folk singer?"  That shit is sofa king wee todded.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: TRA on May 30, 2009, 11:47:58 am
J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 30 May 2009 02:19


The only thing that is more infuriating than the anonymity are the posts that all have the same fucking theme: "What's the best (blank) to use with (blank)?"  



I have to agree with you there. Or there is the "Help me spend $$$" threads. However, I have gotten quite a bit of helpful info between those threads. I try to take everything I read with a grain of salt. I wish there were more threads promoting people to pick up a Tascam 4-track and a few SM57s for their first set-up as opposed to the whole "If you aren't running PTHD with an API front end you can't make a good recording" mentality.

Whatever, I guess. I try to stay in the loop with all of the communities regardless. I just have to remind myself that opinions are like buttholes.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: hargerst on May 30, 2009, 12:36:52 pm
I post on GearSlutz, but very sparingly.  Frankly, GS scares the hell out of me. I'm never sure when some anonymous asshole is gonna come out of the woodwork and take potshots at me.

And this whole "what's best" thing bothers me.  They usually leave off "for this purpose", or "at this price", or "for my needs, which are..." in the thread title.  I did a thread over in HR called:

"Some Thoughts about "Better", "Best", and Mic Recommendations"

Since we see these questions asked over and over, I thought it might be helpful to clarify a couple of things. With the exception of using some mics in a few situations where you can damage them (inside a kick drum, outdoors, etc.), "A MICROPHONE DOESN'T KNOW, OR CARE, WHAT IT'S RECORDING".

Think about that for a minute; it's very important to remember. If the mic doesn't know or care what it's recording, then who's responsibility is it? (Tick...tick...tick...tick...take your time...tick...tick) That's right, it's YOUR responsibility to decide what mic to use for what purpose, where to set it up to get what you want, and it's your responsibility to try and pick the right mic for the right job.

I assume many of you play guitar. Suppose people constantly asked you:

What's the "best" guitar?

Which is "better", a 1956 Stratocaster, or a 1956 Martin D-18? Which guitar would you "recommend" I get?

When should I use a nylon string guitar and when should I use a steel string guitar?

What's the "best" guitar, if I only have $200 to spend?

I just played a $12,000 Martin D-28 and it didn't sound any different than my $200 Takamine; are these a rip off?

I want to get Jimi Hendrix's "Foxey Lady" sound, so what settings should I use with my Ovation Balladeer?

What guitar should I get for playing classical and heavy metal?

See the problems with trying to answer questions like these?

They're either unanswerable, or dependent on getting more information about the kind of music the person want to play, or answers that will be obvious when the person understands a little more about guitar.

It's the same thing with any recommendations. "Better" and "best" often means "good enough for my needs" or "better than what I currently own", but unless you know what the questioner means by "better" and "best", there's no easy answer. For what purpose? What are they trying to do with it? What problems are they having with the stuff they already own?

Yes, "world class" recordings can be made using less than "world class" equipment, but if you don't know how to use what you have, you won't make a "world class" recording. And if you don't have a good grasp of "world class" recording techniques, your recordings will never be "world class," no matter what you use.

And yes, rules are often "bent" and "broken" with great results, but it helps to understand why the rule is there, and when and how to break it.

I do make recommendations, but it is important to understand that any recommendations I make may, or may not, work for your particular application, or with your particular combination of equipment.

And that's the biggest problem in most of the forums I visit.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: stevieeastend on May 30, 2009, 12:37:06 pm
I´ve never been to Gearslutz...is it bad? Cool
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: PP on May 30, 2009, 02:46:52 pm
Quote: ‘P.P., thanks, but it's all worked out beautifully.

As Ed Cherney said about my girlfriend, "That's one hell of a consolation prize."’


‘Before gear forums, I never once called another engineer and said, "Hey, what pre should I use on the U87 for a folk singer?"





I’m sure everyone will want to wish you Great Happiness for your Future!

The world would be a very boring place.

If it weren’t for people like you J.J.  

Good Luck to you Both!





Quote: ‘Before gear forums, I never once called another engineer and said, "Hey, what pre should I use on the U87 for a folk singer?"’





Absolutely Right!

My first commercial recording.

Was made in a medium sized Garage.

An incredibility equipped Garage to be sure.

With a lot of ex-BBC gear, including disc lathes etc.

We would probably have had only one type of mic pre anyway.

The thing we were really concentrating on was stood in front of the mic.

Totally focussed on simply capturing Musicality, Performance and Quality of Tone.




Even today, I remain largely of the same mind.

But then, it's the only one I have.




P
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on May 30, 2009, 03:57:17 pm
steveeastend wrote on Sat, 30 May 2009 11:37

I´ve never been to Gearslutz...is it bad? Cool



You should only go with your parents.  Be sure to hold hands during your visit and look both ways before crossing someone.

Barry
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on May 30, 2009, 10:30:07 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:20



Well, no it wasn't JJP, but as you know, I got censored by Jules for the term "sonic bukkake."  LOL.  

JJP and I know each other, but I wouldn't say we are friends.  Very Happy

Not that he cares what I think, anyway.


My point was that your story reminded me of how you seem to do exactly the same thing in your constant ragging of JJP's work...the difference being that apparently you really are JJ Blair and by your account he doesn't care what you think.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Gearslutz bashing...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Empty Planet on May 30, 2009, 11:58:28 pm
JJ, it's just so strange.  You point to a fraction of the posts at GS and you can't focus on anything else; it's like they drive you berserk.

What do you do in a crowd if you hear someone say something nutty? Stop listening to the friend you're talking to and fixate on that?

This forum has such a weird inferiority complex about GS.

Geez, let it go, guys.  



Peace.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on May 31, 2009, 02:12:41 am
Empty Planet wrote on Sat, 30 May 2009 21:58

JJ, it's just so strange.  You point to a fraction of the posts at GS and you can't focus on anything else; it's like they drive you berserk.

What do you do in a crowd if you hear someone say something nutty? Stop listening to the friend you're talking to and fixate on that?

This forum has such a weird inferiority complex about GS.

Geez, let it go, guys.  



Peace.


HELL NO! We aint lettin go!

I wish I had the time to get banned, its alotta work!


bab
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Edvaard on May 31, 2009, 10:11:00 am
hargerst wrote on Sat, 30 May 2009 12:36



I want to get Jimi Hendrix's "Foxey Lady" sound, so what settings should I use with my Ovation Balladeer?





It took me most of five minutes to recover from that one.


Damn, Harvey.

I don't use a 'sig', but if I did, I might feel the need to steal that one.

I'm not that many years behind you, but if I get to be even half as funny or half as perceptive as you, I'll have something to look forward to.

Thanks for everything you do here.



Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 31, 2009, 01:32:49 pm
Kris wrote on Sat, 30 May 2009 19:30

[My point was that your story reminded me of how you seem to do exactly the same thing in your constant ragging of JJP's work...the difference being that apparently you really are JJ Blair and by your account he doesn't care what you think.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Gearslutz bashing...


Kris, you seem to misunderstand me.  I rag on him because I think he's an asshole.  If he were a nice guy, and weren't a dick to me and others, I wouldn't point out that he's the emperor's new clothes.  

But yeah, I'll say anything to somebody's face that I say here.  That's my policy.  I won't hide behind anonymity.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 31, 2009, 01:41:16 pm
Empty Planet wrote on Sat, 30 May 2009 20:58

JJ, it's just so strange.  You point to a fraction of the posts at GS and you can't focus on anything else; it's like they drive you berserk.

What do you do in a crowd if you hear someone say something nutty? Stop listening to the friend you're talking to and fixate on that?

This forum has such a weird inferiority complex about GS.

Geez, let it go, guys.  


Seth, first off, it's a pretty large fraction of topics that are like that.  At this very second, there are at least five topics like that on the first page of "High End," not to mention the additional five that ask, "Should I buy X or Y?"  As a friend said last night: "Use what you have and write better songs."

Secondly, as I said, I had to quit because even though it might be just the one troll out of twenty in a thread, I can't keep myself from taking the bait, so I left.  That's on me.  I'm not blaming Jules, or the policies, or even the trolls for my behavior over there.  My suggestions are simply how to improve the S/N ratio, not what would make me happier.  
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 31, 2009, 01:54:16 pm
Oy.  As I went over there to take a sample of the titles for Seth, there was a mic thread I totally wanted to chime in on, but I had to stop myself.  Can't do it.  That's how it starts.  
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Empty Planet on May 31, 2009, 02:52:36 pm
Lol. It's all cool, JJ. At least you've mastered the ideal of Know Thyself -- which oddly seems to elude many people their entire lives.  Finding dumb post ideas over there is kinda like hitting the broad side of a barn, I just also find a lot of great content over there too. Maybe I've  just learned to surf the nonsense.  Too me it's like any crowded room.

Cheers.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 31, 2009, 04:02:22 pm
Oh, hey, I loved going there and talking about mics.  I got to do more of that there than over here, even.  I just get sidetracked, and going there to ONLY talk about mics is like trying to eat one peanut.  
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Hank Alrich on May 31, 2009, 04:13:03 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 31 May 2009 13:02

  I just get sidetracked, and going there to ONLY talk about mics is like trying to eat one peanut.  


What's the best peanut to eat if you can only afford one?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: compasspnt on May 31, 2009, 04:36:08 pm
What brand of peanut butter goes best with Wonder Bread (plain white)?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on May 31, 2009, 04:59:11 pm
Quote:

“I have travelled the whole world, and have yet to see a statue in honour of a critic”.



...or a recording engineer...


but... there have been statues of some very nasty people...



Schumann mentions in his "Rules For Young Musicians"

Quote:

You must not give currency to poor compositions, on the contrary you must do all you can to SUPRESS them


this is an argument which I find applicable to all ART

and it goes hand-in-hand with:

Quote:

The Moral Laws are also those of Art


karajan recordings don't me please at all, personally... too many mics.. too artificial-sounding..

professional critics can do more harm than good.. as can journalists.

but critique can be constructive when it is part of a whole.


Gearsluts does not really interfere with my life, as I don't go there.. so I don't personally find it a threat in ANY way..

I don't see what all the noise is about, personally.

maybe GS is seen as being a negative influence on the art ---- so perhaps that's why all the bashing is going on.


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 31, 2009, 05:12:01 pm
compasspnt wrote on Sun, 31 May 2009 13:36

What brand of peanut butter goes best with Wonder Bread (plain white)?



Depends.  Jiff has a smooth and creamy top end, but Peter Pan is a little crunchy in the mids.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: John Ivan on May 31, 2009, 06:05:18 pm
I don't know which P-B to use with wonder bread. But for fine P-B that sticks to Brownberry Wheat bread perfectly, I go Here. Cool

http://stores.homestead.com/NaturallyNuttyFoodsInc/StoreFron t.bok

This along with local Preserves makes a nearly perfect BP&J Sandwich. YUM!!

Ivan..........................
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: rollmottle on May 31, 2009, 06:45:12 pm
"PSW -- Where the educated go to fight it out with the informed"
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on May 31, 2009, 07:11:48 pm
compasspnt wrote on Sun, 31 May 2009 14:36

What brand of peanut butter goes best with Wonder Bread (plain white)?




what's your budget?

bab
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: minister on May 31, 2009, 07:28:50 pm
We have a really big picnic coming up and I must say we have all the table cloths and table settings and they look great!  But boy, do companies charge a lot for that stuff!!  Mad   Anyway, Alice Waters is coming and we need to make peanut butter and have never made it before.  Sad She'll be here in half an hour so it it REALLY URGENT that you cats respond to me RIGHT AWAY.  Help a fellow slut out, hunh? I was wondering if someone could tell me the basic pointers because we are really trying to break into the catering business, it seems like a realy fun job where you can make some serious cash.  Smile  But I mean, this has to be REALLY GOOD, TOP SHELF peanut butter and feed 45 people.  We have $3 dollars left, but we want THE BEST.  Do we have to get a special tool or something?  Does it matter what kind of nuts we use?  What are the best nuts for peanut butter?  It has to be done really fast, though, so none of this BS about "process".

Thanks Dudes! Cool  Surprised

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Jay Kadis on May 31, 2009, 07:30:40 pm
If you don't grind your own peanut butter and bake your own bread, you'll never know a true peanut butter sandwich...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Empty Planet on May 31, 2009, 07:59:22 pm
So, seriously, what kind of peanut butter should I use to give a mariachi band a Led Zep feel?



Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: hargerst on May 31, 2009, 09:07:51 pm
In the old days, all it took was some shelled peanuts, a hammer, and really good aim.  Kids these days have it too easy!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on May 31, 2009, 09:53:27 pm
Empty Planet wrote on Sun, 31 May 2009 16:59

So, seriously, what kind of peanut butter should I use to give a mariachi band a Led Zep feel?


Tangerine flavored?  Or maybe mix it with some custard pie?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: compasspnt on May 31, 2009, 10:04:26 pm
So I want a lot of flavors in my nut butter toolbox.

I think I need a different nut butter for every different kind of bread.

Are peanuts really peas?

Are they really nuts?

The Guitar Center guy told me that the Chinese nuts are now better than the European ones anyway, and that if I didn't like the flavor, I could bring them back.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Strummer on May 31, 2009, 10:20:52 pm
If you sing into the nuts after you've spent your bread you can't return them.

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: John Ivan on May 31, 2009, 11:11:40 pm
Well, I like sticking with one type of nut Butter.. No matter which we choose though, it needs to be mixed right or it's too wet.. I get color from the different preserves I choose, some being brighter than others, some sweeter.

The bread need's to be great though.. We can use the best nut butter in the world and it wont do any good if the bread that comes through the door isn't ready to be buttered.

Ivan............................
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: minister on May 31, 2009, 11:15:44 pm
I want to buy an Aquatronic Scale, can someone tell which one is the best for under $20?

And also tell me what good nut butter looks like?



Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Hank Alrich on May 31, 2009, 11:30:36 pm
compasspnt wrote on Sun, 31 May 2009 19:04

So I want a lot of flavors in my nut butter toolbox.

I think I need a different nut butter for every different kind of bread.

Are peanuts really peas?

Are they really nuts?

The Guitar Center guy told me that the Chinese nuts are now better than the European ones anyway, and that if I didn't like the flavor, I could bring them back.



That salesman was lying! There are laws against returning peanuts once you have sung into them.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: John Ivan on May 31, 2009, 11:34:17 pm
minister wrote on Sun, 31 May 2009 23:15

I want to buy an Aquatronic Scale, can someone tell which one is the best for under $20?

And also tell me what good nut butter looks like?







I can't help with your scale.. And we should all turn to JJ, our resident expert on Nut Butter. Shocked

Ivan.............
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 01, 2009, 02:44:21 am
The Chinese peanut butter has melamine in it ... and you're hungry a half hour later.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: PP on June 01, 2009, 03:43:48 am
Quote: “karajan recordings don't me please at all, personally... too many mics.. too artificial-sounding..”




It’s a pity that Stanley Kubrick

Hadn’t met you, and didn’t realise this

Before he plastered Karajan and The Berlin Philamonika

All over Arthur C. Clarke’s 2001 A Space Odyssey that won him such Acclaim.




As complete darkness becomes a clear eclipse.

A Diamond Ring of extraordinary exquisite

And ever intensifying beauty

Finally bursts fully

Into sight.




And Karajan, who has  built his Orchestra into Crescendo after ever intensifying Crescendo.

Finally loose's great waves of sound of quite incredible strength to flow over and vibrate within us.

Until our ears are finally, completely satiated, pulsating, with the absolute glory, of Great Music.




And Space Stations dance through their orbits,

Like beautifully dressed Ladies,

Waltz in Ball Gowns,

In Vienna.




Perhaps he knew about

The Music of The Spheres.



In Shakespeare’s The Merchant of Venice

The young Lorenzo woos his sweetheart with talk of the stars:




“There’s not the smallest orb which thou behold’st

But in his motion like an angel sings,

Still quiring to the young-eyed cherubins;

Such harmony is in immortal souls;

But whilst this muddy vesture of decay

Doth grossly close it in, we cannot hear it.”





This is the music of the spheres, the idea that the stars and planets as they travel through space make beautiful music together.

The music of the spheres played out of the classical world, through the medieval period and into the Renaissance.

It affords us a glimpse into minds for whom the universe was full of meaning.

Of strange correspondences and grand harmonies.




Then.

I like beautiful sound.

And, from a personal perspective.

Apart from my American mentor, whom I certainly emulated.

Karajan is the Conductor whose work I most greatly admired and aspired to.

To watch him Conduct was in itself as great an experience as to listen to the Music.

The Music was breathtakingly uplifting and moving seeming to inspire people to greater heights.




Deutsche Grammophon Recordings were among the very best of their time.

I especially loved Karajan’s Beethoven 6th Symphony (The Pastoral ).

And the incredible Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture.




For a short while in my youth I ran a huge mainly B&O and Sony Hi-Fi Dept with lots of fantastic gear for the time, and used to run the 1812 Overture at extremely high volume through huge B&O speakers, the largest made.

Music Lovers would come in from the High Street, and simply stand seemingly paralyzed at the edge of the room, stupefied, awe struck and inspired, by the sheer scale of glorious musicality that drew them in by their ears.

With 16 Cannon Shots in the piece, I always thought it was a good test of the bottom end, for the Auxiliary Bass Radiators.




Karajan of course, is the absolute Top Selling Classical Artist of all time.

His Record Sales are in excess of 200 Million Albums by now.

That represents 800 different Albums and C.D.’s.





Of course, he was instrumental.

In the development.  

Of the C.D.




He certainly had a temper.

I remember Edward Heath at a Concert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Heath

Edward was stood at the bottom of the stage entrance ramp.

In the Royal Albert Hall and The Conductors Suite is half way along the passage.

Karajan was having a row with someone there and you could hear him shouting right along the corridor.

He was a perfectionist, and seemed to have to find a reason to work himself into a frenzy before his Concerts, perhaps it relieved the stress.




But he provided lots of work for his busy Musicians as Principal Conductor of the Berlin Philamonika a position he held for 35 years and The Vienna State Opera simultaneously.

        http://www.karajan.org/jart/prj3/karajan/main.jart?rel=en&am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;content-id=1188466703887&reserve-mode=active

http://www.karajan.co.uk/centenaryslideshow.html




Quote: “karajan recordings don't me please at all




It is safe to assume.




That no-one

Will be building

A statue anywhere for you.





P
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on June 01, 2009, 05:34:14 am
Unless I PAY SOMEONE to make a statue of me, of course..

that's usually the way it's done unless a person has a high political or social importance.

who pays for the statues erected in dictatorships? hmm...




As I mentioned I do not like Karajan's music, because I find it artificial-sounding


you did mention that he is the top-selling classical artist of all time.. and you also did mention that he worked on the soundtrack of 2001.

the fact that he doesn't do it for me and that he is immensely POP do not necessarily have anything to do with each other..  at all...


Tavernello is the best-selling wine in Italy, and it comes in a carton.  I don't drink it, personally... yet it must have it's merits..


In the Hi-fi Store near my home, when I was a kid, they used to keep the Switched On Bach record because of the bass&treble excursion of the Moog no doubt..

I would never use such a record to check out a set of speakers, or an amp..  and I would not use Karajan for similar reasons..

but AGAIN  that is in line with my PERSONAL tastes..
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on June 01, 2009, 09:42:07 am
rollmottle wrote on Sun, 31 May 2009 18:45

"PSW -- Where the educated go to fight it out with the informed"


Winner.

Epic thread, guys. Good job. All this talk of Chinese nuts is making me want to stirfry something.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 01, 2009, 02:24:40 pm
Yes great job everyone!  Now who can we belittle next?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Ryan Slowey on June 01, 2009, 03:13:41 pm
I only eat vintage peanut butters. Reissue peanut butters don't come close to the originals.

The old whiteface Wonderbread slices from the '60s generally taste best as well. Thank god for all those preservatives!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MagnetoSound on June 01, 2009, 03:29:14 pm
Sean Eldon Qualls wrote on Mon, 01 June 2009 14:42

All this talk of Chinese nuts is making me want to stirfry something.




Oh, good god! RUN, Mister Chinaman, run for your life!!

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 01, 2009, 04:29:35 pm
There are many version of Von Karajan recordings.  I wonder which vintage he used in 2001 and Clockwork Orange.  Those are stunning.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: stevieeastend on June 01, 2009, 04:57:44 pm
I had a conversion on Karajan a while ago with a friend of mine, actually a musician of the Vienna Philharmonics.
He said that it was especially his ability to motivate people, his personality which made everybody paying attention and giving the best to please "him"... He also mentioned his ability to almost always find the right tempi, always the right levels for each section of the orchestra....truly outstanding character!!

For sure he was a perfectionist, his conducting and recordings can be seen as "perfect" in the classical world. Maybe sort of as Mutt Lange´s Shania Twain records are seen as "perfect" in a pop way. Over 20 million sold alone in the U.S. right?

But does it have to be that way? The Vienna Philharmonics f.e. still use some "old", not so perfectly tuned instruments (horns) just in order to conserve a certain warm sound (I would also prefer a Boesendorfer Piano to a Steinberg any day, although a Steinberg is said to be THE "perfect" piano du jour.) and actually it´s their "imperfect" way, being a little capricious, which makes them different to other big orchestras. Maybe that was the reason Karajan always had his difficulties in Vienna. People here tend to be a little sloppy sometimes, which Karajan wasn´t at all, actually very german for an austrian Wink

I haven´t bought any of Shania Twain´s records, although those productions are truly amazing work.

In that sense, I guess nobody´s perfect, right?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on June 01, 2009, 06:24:37 pm
I just wanted to say that I have nothing against Karajan, and that I do recognize the power of those 'landmark' recordings.

I did buy some of the big orchestral stuff he did and could not listen to it for too long.

later, I learned that he used multitrack machines and pop mixing techniques, which may explain some of it..

perhaps it was his vision which was a bit too large and impersonal for me.  But I gave those records away..I can't really remember them in detail.

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 02, 2009, 01:02:24 am
Max, maybe the ICs he used destroyed the music?

Razz
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on June 02, 2009, 01:07:18 am
J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 01:02

Max, maybe the ICs he used destroyed the music?


I thought this was implied...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on June 02, 2009, 01:45:32 am
MDM, wrote on Mon, 01 June 2009 17:24

I just wanted to say that I have nothing against Karajan, and that I do recognize the power of those 'landmark' recordings.

I did buy some of the big orchestral stuff he did and could not listen to it for too long.

later, I learned that he used multitrack machines and pop mixing techniques, which may explain some of it..

perhaps it was his vision which was a bit too large and impersonal for me.  But I gave those records away..I can't really remember them in detail.





Back in the early '80s, John Woram (RCA Recording Engineer and editor for "dB, The Sound Engineering Magazine") gave a presentation at the Midwest Acoustics Conference.  He played two Karajan recordings of the "Ode To Joy".  The recordings were about 30 years apart.  Karajan had the exact same tempo in both recordings!  Anyway, Mr. Woram had spliced the two recordings together.  The first recording example was clean, clear, dynamic, with wonderful imaging.  The second was phasey, closed sounding, lifeless.  The first example was a two track recording and the second was the "modern" multitrack recording of 30 years later.  That presentation put me off multitrack classical forever.

Barry
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 02, 2009, 02:10:38 am
Barry, that was the impression that I had, that the earlier recordings were superior.  I have a box set of his Beethoven recordings that I think is from the '70s, but I have not listened to it for years.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: PP on June 02, 2009, 08:07:43 am
Quote: “Back in the early '80s, John Woram (RCA Recording Engineer and editor for "dB, The Sound Engineering Magazine") gave a presentation at the Midwest Acoustics Conference. He played two Karajan recordings of the "Ode To Joy". The recordings were about 30 years apart. Karajan had the exact same tempo in both recordings! Anyway, Mr. Woram had spliced the two recordings together. The first recording example was clean, clear, dynamic, with wonderful imaging. The second was phasey, closed sounding, lifeless. The first example was a two track recording and the second was the "modern" multitrack recording of 30 years later. That presentation put me off multitrack classical forever.”


Quote: “I had a conversion on Karajan a while ago with a friend of mine, actually a musician of the Vienna Philharmonics.  He said that it was especially his ability to motivate people, his personality which made everybody paying attention and giving the best to please "him"... He also mentioned his ability to almost always find the right tempi, always the right levels for each section of the orchestra....truly outstanding character!!”


Quote: “I just wanted to say that I have nothing against Karajan, and that I do recognize the power of those 'landmark' recordings. I did buy some of the big orchestral stuff he did and could not listen to it for too long. later, I learned that he used multitrack machines and pop mixing techniques, which may explain some of it.. perhaps it was his vision which was a bit too large and impersonal for me. But I gave those records away..I can't really remember them in detail.”


Quote: “There are many version of Von Karajan recordings. I wonder which vintage he used in 2001 and Clockwork Orange. Those are stunning.”


Quote: “Barry, that was the impression that I had, that the earlier recordings were superior.

I have a box set of his Beethoven recordings that I think is from the '70s.”






One thing people can take away from this is there IS an absolutely perfect IDEAL TEMPO for every Arrangement of a Piece of Music.

If you can NAIL that tempo precisely, you are Musically a long way to achieving your overall goals.  

Few people give this matter any deep consideration at all, far less than it deserves.

Please appreciate as a Conductor it has been a primary matter for me.

Karajan Nailed Tempo like no one I know.

He was Amazingly Consistent.




Years ago, I was in a Group that had enjoyed reasonable success.

But I out grew them, and then moved on into Arranging and Conducting.

Later, I was invited to Musically Arrange a large show, that they had Produced.

They had an enormous P.A. and we borrowed some huge facilities from a Local Army Barracks to test it.

We would go on entertaining visits to Military and Air Force Establishments so had a good relationship with the Top Brass.




I remember seeing the Group I had once played with, go onto a huge stage and play their best known number, (whilst I stood by the Mixer in a Suit), and they taped the piece.

I said to them when they finished, can you do the same thing again, but now play it at this tempo, and demonstrated the speed I wanted.

The leader of the Group, was extremely resistant to this idea, hard against it, and indeed so was everyone else, at first.

But eventually I prevailed upon them. And very reluctantly they complied with my wishes.




When they had finished they got down from the stage. And listened to the tape of their two renditions already entirely convinced I was completely wrong, it had all ‘felt’ so unusual rhythmically to what they were used to.

But when the heard the two recordings, played back to themselves they were completely blown away by the pronounced difference they heard.

And all that had changed, was that I had, for the first time ever, properly NAILED the ideal Tempo for them.

The old way they were used to was dull in comparison.

You can see why I had moved on.




I always have a special Metronome by the Piano.

And always use it when recording.

But only to nail the ‘feel’

And ascertain the

Perfect Tempo.




And I spend quite a lot of time and attention on this before I start to do anything else at all. The last time I saw Tim Rice he was buying a Metronome.




With all due respect to everyone,

I doubt if anyone here is familiar with them.

But Al Schmitt would know what I’m writing about.

In the 50’s and 60’ you could buy a Metronomic Stop Watch.

Great for Conductors it looked from a distance just like a regular Pocket Watch.

However it nailed Beats Per Minute to Time in a precise way and was very useful indeed.




Nelson Riddle had one and used it to good effect.

When have you ever listened to any Frank Sinatra Record.

And questioned in your mind whether the Tempo was correct?

You probably never have, because it was always bang on, but it didn’t just happen.

Someone who was a Master of his Craft determined the ideal Tempo for the Arrangement.




This is why it’s simply such an easy thing to overlook.

If you always listen to great records.

The Tempo is always right.

So you don’t think

About it or

Question

It at

All!




The second thing to consider is that the person that decided the details of how to Record.

Karajan and The Berlin Philhamonika, is not Karajan himself at all, but his Producers.

To blame him, for that, seems to be the real  loss of objectivity.




He was a man that was willing to go with new technologies, and push the envelope.

And use many of the newer technologies that have gained acceptance.

Including the C.D. which he actually helped to create.

Please appreciate that during his life time.

Incredibly major shifts in technology.

Have been introduced.




The Beatles were no different.

Nor were any other lasting Artist's.

You have to look at the entire picture.




Please click on Herbert von Karajan's curriculum vitae: It runs from 1908 to 1989.

              http://www.karajan.org/jart/prj3/karajan/main.jart?rel=en&am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;am p;content-id=1188466703959&reserve-mode=active




And some people are complaining that ‘some’ of his Records used too many mics?

Even if they are right, let’s try to keep a proper sense of perspective!

I too have the Beethoven Symphonien from the early recordings.

And many others that I enjoy in spite of a little hiss.

It’s the Musicianship that reaches me.




Please turn your sound up and listen at the proper scale!




2001: A Space Odyssey - Opening [Widescreen]

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XyS7uCtnq0&feature=relat ed


The Blue Danube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKHoZXoErmo


Beethoven - Symphonie Nr. 6 (Pastoral) I

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GWMApWKQIY&feature=relat ed




Symphony No. 6 in F major, op. 68 ,“The Pastoral” was written almost simultaneously with The 5th Symphony, but differs from it in theme.

If Symphony No.5 deals with the struggle and the joy of victory, “The Pastoral” represents the expression of the love the composer holds for nature.




In a letter to Therese Malfatti in the summer of 1808, Beethoven said " How happy I am to be able to walk among the shrubs, the trees, the woods, the grass and the rocks! For the woods, the trees and the rocks give man the resonance he needs."

Beethoven’s great love of nature, the delight in strolling through the woods of Heilllingenstadt, the fact that he always found his equilibrium in the heart of nature, all these led to the creation of his sixth symphony.

This programmatic endeavour is clearly expressed through the suggestive title of the symphony, as well as through the titles of each segment of it, through this initiating the later direction of his programmatic symphonies and even of his symphonic poems.




When he found refuge in the midst of nature, he jotted down themes inspired by the trill of birds, the trickling of creeks or the rustle of leaves.  

In a notebook from 1803 was found an outline of a river’s trickling with the additional note: " The greater the river, the more grave the tone."  

Beethoven rose much higher than his predecessors who tried to capture the gist of nature, because he places man with his feelings and sensitivity in the heart of nature.

And this is confirmed by the very title he places on the cover of the first edition (Breitkoph & Hartel) and that is: "Pastoral-Sinfonie oder Erinnerung an das Landleben. (Mehr Ausdruck der Emphindung als Mahlerey.)" – “Pastoral Symphony or Recollection of the Life in the Countryside”.




P
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: stevieeastend on June 02, 2009, 12:04:53 pm
PP wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 14:07


One thing people can take away from this is there IS an absolutely perfect IDEAL TEMPO for every Arrangement of a Piece of Music.

P


This is a very interesting point! As I agree with you in general I would say that it would also depend to some minor degree on the personality and mentality of a singer/musician/orchestra.

For example when I listen to Ray Charles version of "Yesterday" I cannot say that the tempo would fit to every singer although the arrangement leaves some room for little tempo adjustments right?
As I do not think that there is an absolute standard for any given piece of music I would agree that the intention of the creator should be capture in a "perfect" way, the right tempo for "his" work.
Same is true to some extend to classical work. The "blue danube" by Strauss is somehow the hidden hymn of Vienna. It is played every new year, exactly at 24.00 and everybody on the streets dancing to it. I have a very strong emotional connection to this, actually it brings up a thousand picture at once in my head and I can feel myself wandering through the city centre of Vienna, smelling music behind almost every corner. Actually I grow up like that. I can somehow kind of "feel" classical music in it´s very true meaning and I heard the "blue danube" probably a thousand times.
To me it´s different when it´s played by the Berliner, Londoner, or Vienna Philharmonics. The germans play it different than we do. But that´s ok, as long as the tempo fits to them. Maybe that´s a little too much but everytime I hear an orchestra from outside playing it I have the feeling that they will never understand how it was meant to be. So I rather have it played "their" way compared to a not so good try to do it as it was meant to be.

This is also a very interesting point when it comes to singers in classical music. Best would be to sing it as it was meant to be. But that´s sometimes too much to ask, it´s almost always "the version" of the singer here.
An exception to the rule though: Elina Garanca.

cheers
St


P.S. I have no idea what to think of this Stanley Kubrik clip though. It´s like having Aretha Franklin sing in an "Oktoberfest" scene but maybe that´s what he was trying to intend. Wink  ... no offense, just kidding here..
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: wwittman on June 02, 2009, 12:41:00 pm
PP wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 08:07


We would go on entertaining visits to Military and Air Force Establishments so had a good relationship with the Top Brass.




the 1st Trumpets?


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: ssltech on June 02, 2009, 01:03:39 pm
wwittman wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 12:41

PP wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 08:07


We would go on entertaining visits to Military and Air Force Establishments so had a good relationship with the Top Brass.




the 1st Trumpets?






The Soprano Cornet.


(-A term which HBO briefly considered trademarking, as a type of Ice Cream...)



Keith
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 02, 2009, 01:54:30 pm
Little did Kubrick know that Pan Am would not exist in 2001!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Daniel Farris on June 02, 2009, 02:07:04 pm
He also didn't know he'd be dead before Eyes Wide Shut hit theaters.

It's a mysterious world.

DF
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Daniel Farris on June 02, 2009, 02:08:43 pm
And who could know that faxing all those pages to Steven Spielberg in the middle of the night would result in one of the worst movies ever made?

DF
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Edvaard on June 02, 2009, 03:15:23 pm

And, you think that faxing, as opposed to the texting we have today, played no small part in all this?

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: PP on June 02, 2009, 03:21:36 pm
Quote: “This is a very interesting point!”

-   Snipped for Shortness        -

Quote: “I would say that it would also depend to some minor degree on the personality and mentality of a singer/musician/orchestra.”

-   Snipped for Shortness       -

Quote: “As I do not think that there is an absolute standard for any given piece of music I would agree that the intention of the creator should be capture in a "perfect" way, the right tempo for "his" work.”




Thanks for this.

Your contributions have been really excellent.

I was in rather a hurry today, as I have been extremely  busy, and missed an important point.




As you know, in Europe, most Musical Scores utilise Musical Terms expressed in the Italian language.

Now it could be argued, with complete conviction that Italian is the International language of Music.

But International Business today, has superseded all language requirements of previous Centuries.

And thus, International English has become THE International language taught everywhere.

People may reflect profoundly upon the fact that as the language of English.

Is the language of Shakespeare, Keats and Shelly, that it is only right.

That this should be so, as a great boon, to the entire world.

But the broader point to absorb is that in Italian.

The terms for Tempi allow a great deal

Of latitude for the Conductor’s

Interpretation.




http://www.classicalworks.com/html/glossary.html

           http://www.musictheory.org.uk/res-musical-terms/italian-musi cal-terms.php


Very well..




Of course, in Europe, the names we have for notes are Croquets, Semi-Breves, DemiSemiQuavers and so on.

But most other European languages, quite naturally, have their very own, completely different, names for these.

Furthermore, there is no absolute standard to follow at all for the Notation of Music, Globally.

In different European Countries, the notes ABCDEFG can take on certain different letters.

If you have a copy of this book, you can make sense of it, and better understand.

           http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Dictionary-Musical-Paperback- Reference/dp/0198606982

Of course Internationally Travelling Musicians.

Quickly learn to deal with these.

Fundemental differences.




But in America, they ascribe a Tempo Mark, to a Crotchet.

This is an absolute figure, perfectly defined for the benefit of Performers.

Therefore, for a Composer, it’s a great boon. He can absolutely define his precise intention for Tempo.

There is no ambiguity whatsoever, a Conductor may impose his own ideas for the piece, but the Composers original intention is crystal clear.




I like that myself, both from a Compositional point of view, and as a guide to Performance.




Furthermore, instead of writing a piece of Music and needing to understand that terms like, Sechzehntelnote, double-croche, semicroma, semicorchea and semicolcheia, all mean the same thing as a semiquaver, demiquaver or in America a sixteenth note.

I think it helps the Conductor and Players to think in terms of the relative mathematical values of notes, rather than have to use different terms in different countries, with different people.

By calling the note by its mathematical value in the bar, a sixteenth note, all this unnecessary obfuscation is entirely overcome.




I like that myself, both from a speed of Communication point of view, and an enhanced Grasp of Unfamiliar Music.




In these days of Recording Backing Tracks in one Country, an Orchestral Backing in another, and the final Vocal in yet another, although I am stretching the point, I believe it helps to simplify things wherever you can, whenever possible.

With all possible humility, one of the thing’s that has pleased me most, is when Musicians approach me, thanking me for making everything so simple and clear for them, they really do want to do their very, very best.

To me it means a lot, for it means I have been entirely successful in my aims, and that together we stand the best possible chance of a Fine Performance without any misunderstanding or mishap.




For I believe that a central element of any Musical Arranger or Conductor's job is to facilitate the role of the Performing Musicians, to serve their needs, and provide for their every requirement.




It shows up in the Staged Performance, especially where New Music and Limited Time are concerned, and when for instance, Large Chorus’s feature a mix of both Professional and Amateur Singers.

You can see the enjoyment on the Performers faces. The thing is, when experienced Musicians observe the fact that you are bending over backward to do your very best for them.

I have found you can totally rely upon the fact, that they will give that inexpressible extra effort, without it ever, even being called for.

To ensure that their Performance is the very best they are truly capable of.

And that’s all I ever really ask of anybody.




P
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on June 02, 2009, 05:03:46 pm
the correct tempo for classical music is often misunderstood, and often does not reflect the composer's marking.

This is because oftentimes the performance-practice of music has been institutionalized to the point of having lost any resemblance to the original creation.

Often time signatures are modified as are tempi

The only way to escape this is to find the original manuscripts, study performance practice of the day and have a working knowledge of the actual instruments of the day.  The musical instruments used as well as the dimensions and sound of the room may influence tempo

So the concept of perfect tempo to me is not applicable

On the other hand we may say that every tempo creates a distinct effect within a framework, considering all variables, and that the tempo is relative to the desired  effect.

It's interesting to note that as music became more institutionalized, it became more pompous, bigger than life, often too majestic and overly sentimental
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: stevieeastend on June 02, 2009, 05:14:21 pm
MDM, wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 23:03


It's interesting to note that as music became more institutionalized, it became more pompous, bigger than life, often too majestic and overly sentimental



Which has kind of started with the opera itself. Many composers did show their guts there,  who´s bigger, deeper... etc.
That´s the reason why I prefer piano concerts and instrumentals any day. In my opinion that´s were the real musical heart of many composers is to find..
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: compasspnt on June 02, 2009, 06:17:19 pm
There is a perfect tempo for each given situation...each group of musicians, the specific room, individual conductor, instrumentation, etc.

As Peter points out, the Capitol Sinatra recordings (Nelson Riddle arrangements) were perfect, in every way.  The best songs, best singer, best musicians, best equipment, best engineering...and perfect tempo.

Put a different singer in there, different arranger, different musicians, the tempo would probably NEED to be different as well.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: stevieeastend on June 02, 2009, 06:24:13 pm
PP wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 21:21


And thus, International English has become THE International language taught everywhere.



...which is one of the major points for someone working in the pop/entertainment industry and coming from a non-english country. It´s a pretty big deal trying to understand the real intention of a song or interpretation of the lyric the same way as a native speaker would.  

I´ve had a partner from Australia for the last seven years and we talked about almost any aspect of style and taste in the english-spoken-pop-world day in day out. I´ve spent a lot of time in the U.S. ..but still it´s not easy for me to really feel a song the same way as someone from england or america would.
I remember when I interned an advertising agency in New York almost 15 years ago and I talked to some guy almost every day about every artist you can think of. Now, after years of working as a musician/songwriter/producer in the pop/rock world, working with a lot of americans, having lot of english friends and learning about both their mentality I can say that I kind of understand the world of pop the way it is.
And it´s not so great as I thought it would, I have to say, not as great as the majority of the people in germany f.e. think. You got all these shows and I am pretty sure that if the audience could really know and feel the lyrics the right way, they would be pretty embarrassed.
On the other hand there are so many great songs out there, truly amazing music from the early stages in the 50ies to Nirvana and Hip/Hop, this whole culture, which stands for today´s music for over 50 years now. Still the intention of the writers will never really come across 100% to any non-native speaker.

And I think the same is true to some degree for classical music the other way around. The points you brought up concerning how tempi are "translated" into an "english version" of it is very interesting. Americans often simplify things which can be a good thing.

I couldn´t figure out in which field you´re exactly working but it seems to be very complex and from what I know from my classical friends it´s not an easy thing motivating a bunch of experienced professionals Wink

cheers
St


P.S. Any "Rammstein" or "Scooter" fans around? I could tell you something about the real intention  Wink




Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 02, 2009, 08:20:56 pm
And then there was the Grateful Dead...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on June 02, 2009, 10:15:47 pm
compasspnt wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 16:17

There is a perfect tempo for each given situation...each group of musicians, the specific room, individual conductor, instrumentation, etc.

As Peter points out, the Capitol Sinatra recordings (Nelson Riddle arrangements) were perfect, in every way.  The best songs, best singer, best musicians, best equipment, best engineering...and perfect tempo.

Put a different singer in there, different arranger, different musicians, the tempo would probably NEED to be different as well.



you don't think the vocal is too loud on those Capitol recordings? Okay with me, huge Sinatra fan.

bab
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on June 02, 2009, 10:54:24 pm
Listening to a Sinatra recording recently, I was startled at how prominent the vocal is.

Barry
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: compasspnt on June 02, 2009, 10:54:56 pm
Not for me.

I'm talking "Wee Small Hours" vintage.

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on June 03, 2009, 12:18:29 am
The tune that struck me that way was "That's Life".


Barry
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Tomas Danko on June 03, 2009, 03:13:14 am
Then there's the issue with a small ensemble performing popular music in a room, and depending on the size of the room and the reverberation the ensemble will sometimes adjust the tempo of the song accordingly.

Some cats call it "playing against the room" or such (not sure how to translate the Swedish sentence).

Sometimes it all turns into mush if you play too fast, and so you slow down a bit. Other times you play faster in order to fill up the room with sound so that it sounds bigger and "more".

Of course, this doesn't change the fact that there can be a perfect tempo for a particular song. It merely adds another variable in the equation for a live context.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: PP on June 03, 2009, 03:56:08 am
Quote: "The tune that struck me that way was "That's Life".




The point is..

Frank Sinatra was a consummate professional.

And demanded and surround himself with virtuosic talent.

He knew that great ‘Standards’ began with great Lyrics and Music.

To achieve that you needed great Lyricists and great Composers, Masters of their Craft.

Mr. Sinatra would often listen to Great Classical Recording’s and derive ideas for a great Introduction.

Or a Finale, from particular moments of heightened splendour, that he was particularly drawn to, of The Great Masters.

Now I have this theory that in all great Musical Arrangers and Musicians there is something of a Composer, and Nelson Riddle.

Found himself in this position, having clear idea’s presented to him for the development of particular pieces of well written Songs.

Now unless there is an 'Instrumental Break' it is primarily in both the Introduction and Finale that the greatest latitude is afforded the Musical Arranger.

And there, that the fullest scale of their Compositional talents can find the greatest opportunity for depth of expression, emotive power, and captivate the ear of the listener.

It is just my opinion, but I believe That Mr. Sinatra understood only too well, the issues that face Musicians, Producers and Record Company Executives competing for the attention of the populous today.

He knew that in the few opening seconds of a Recording that you HAD to grab the listener by the ears, and utterly captivate their attention, so that when HE began to sing, the audience  was already expectantly anticipating his entrance.




As far as Musical Arrangements go, Nelsons Riddle’s view was that when Frank Sinatra begins to sing, he gets out of the way, and Frank Sinatra takes the centre stage, he of course quite naturally, is after all The Star.

So on an incredible number of levels, Lyrically, Compositionally, Musical Arrangement, Virtuoso Musician’s, Superlative Producers, Technicians, Recording Studios, and of course, the perfect rendering of the Song by The Consumate Singer.    

It seems as if every single Song he ever recorded was an absolute winner in every way.

And the sheer class of his great legacy unmatchable, in modern times.




It was not uncommon for experienced Studio Musicians to be hired for a Double Session, when Mr. Sinatra was being Recorded.

What would happen in practical terms is that there would be an initial three hour Session. Here every mic and mic cable would undergo an individual test to ensure everything was technically perfect, three times over.

Every chair that a Musician was required to sit on would be tested to ensure that when the Musicians moved in the chair, as Musician’s do, that there would be no squeaks, unwanted noise, or disruptions.

The Music would under go an initial run through, to familiarise the Musicians completely with their individual and collective tasks, and any areas of Musical Freedom for the Musicians, properly explored.

The Recording Levels and Balances for every Instrument or Instrumental Grouping would be taken and determined.

And by the end of their three hour Recording Session, everything would be perfectly in place to make Perfection.




Then they would break for an hour’s Lunch!




In the Second Session, they would reassemble, and Mr Sinatra would arrive and shake hands with everyone he knew, talk to a few people, and set about the task of Creating a Musical Magic that would become an all time Classic Standard throughout the World.

Mr. Sinatra would of course, come into the Studio, already knowing precisely what he was going to do. All this time and effort was really to make sure everyone else had applied the same Professional attention to detail, that he brought through the door, from the moment he walked in.

Now it’s worth considering that were you or I to perform in a great Concert Hall like The Royal Albert Hall, we would arrive early, and rehearse intensely, then have a rest and prepare ourselves properly dressing for the occasion, using the Dressing and Band Rooms such as they are.

Mr. Sinatra however would dress in his Hotel Room, groomed to perfection the way only Hollywood can teach someone, and step out of his car right onto the Stage, and own it, brilliantly performing in front of a packed house.

Everyone else had already been through the Rehearsal process separately.

And brought to perfection.




Mr. Sinatra simply brought himself!




Quote: “Americans often simplify things which can be a good thing.”




There’s is a lot to be said for this as a general principal.

Where the simplification involves adding a new ‘simplified’ version of an ‘existing’ English word however, it only serves to create greater learning difficulties and confusion for those attempting to understand English.

Many of these artefacts were originally created by Noah Webster, a colonist who at the outset of the establishment of The American Nation was appalled to reflect that he shared so much culturally and linguistically with the English enemy.

Changing the spelling of words was a political attempt to distance and differentiate a newly emerging Nation culturally, of course, some words have evolved and others suffered corruption, and that is a natural and inevitable consequence of language over time.




Please read through this important and excellent thread on Gearslutz... Dealing with an apparent Software Pirate and Troll... Start at the Top!

                                  http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/352357-when-s omeone-says-12db-rms-2.html#post3769224




I have no doubt that you will thoroughly enjoy it.




Where the work of The Great Masters are concerned...

It’s worth contemplating that today we are formally trained in such a way that in regard to Time Signature and Tempo we distinctly compartmentalise them, and think of them, as entirely separate components altogether.

For many of the Great Classical Composers, there is a powerfully symbiotic relationship between Time Signature and Musical Metre that is entirely organic by it's character and innately expressive by it's nature, it's a very deeply creative thing.

As for many of The Greatest Classic Masters, metronomes did not exist as we know them today. Time and Musical Metre was not thought of or expressed in at all the same way, therefore a more flexible, approach altogether, is required to interpret such Music.

People have raged and argued on about Tempo for hundreds of years, and particularly about the works of Mozart in regard to this, and although, there are many other examples that easily could be focussed upon, perhaps Mozart is the most conspicuous of all.

To me, such arguments are unnecessary. I appreciate the points that some would make.

But for me it’s very clear. What the Composer instructed was what he wanted.

However indistinct a revelation, that might appear to be today.

Where a tempo instructions are brief or nebulous.




The Composers intentions can only be properly determined by a comprehensive study of all his works, and directly comparing Scribed Instructions and Musical Situation in one work, directly with another of similarity, and although there are inevitable differences, as each and every piece is an utterly distinct individuality.

It is entirely possible, by a panoramic overview and a completely comprehensive understanding of the full scope of a Composer's works, to properly ascertain and appreciate certain characteristics that give perspicacious insight into the meaning, intention, purpose and mind set of the Composer.

I fully understand the viewpoint that the Tempo of Music should be varied and related to the Instrumentation and Room. And have been there and done that, in the World’s greatest Concert Halls, and come out on the other side, with a profound opinion.

That opinion, firmly resides with the view, that the Composer who originally determined the Instrumentation, and who was far more used to performing in Concert Halls of great variety than we are today, and for whom every Performance was live.

Had a Metre at which he consistently ran his Music, that remember, he had to Score with Pen to Manuscript usually over a considerable time span, clear as crystal deeply embedded in his mind.

Appreciating and determining that spirit of delivery, that pace of expression.

Understanding the mind, of a Great Composer.




Is the work of a lifetime.




And the reason that we derive so much more pleasure,

Listening to the voice of an Actor like,

Anthony Hopkins,

Alec Guinness,

Or Burl Ives.




In reality, it amounts to precisely the same thing.

Furthermore, strange as it may seem.

It is actually the real reason.

Why my posts are written.

The way they are.




P
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: stevieeastend on June 03, 2009, 06:25:27 am
PP wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 09:56



The Composers intentions can only be properly determined by a comprehensive study of all his works,

P


I wanted to state something similar but didn´t want to come across like smart ass Wink

There´s nothing more exciting to learn more about the mentality and enviroment of any great composer of the past though. When I was younger every time I played a piece of Mozart on the piano (I am really not so good at it, I am better in pop though..) me and my russian teacher would have a little conversation about why it has been written that way. Of course all assumptation from a couple of day dreamers Wink


Thanks for your post! Very interesting read!!

cheers
St
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 03, 2009, 07:43:10 am
Kris wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 17:20

And then there was the Grateful Dead...


Who frequently picked the wrong tempo.  I often wondered if it was a case of of much cocaine.  I would always say to myself, "This is WAY too fast for 'Eyes of the World.'"
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 03, 2009, 08:19:48 am
Of course if you were on similar amounts of cocaine at those particular shows, that tempo WAS perfect. Shocked (just don't go back and listen to the bootleg)
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 03, 2009, 08:21:59 am
Sean Eldon Qualls wrote on Mon, 01 June 2009 09:42

Epic thread, guys. Good job.


I can now almost agree with this.  Thanks PP... you rock!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on June 03, 2009, 09:24:17 am
steveeastend wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 16:14

MDM, wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 23:03


It's interesting to note that as music became more institutionalized, it became more pompous, bigger than life, often too majestic and overly sentimental



Which has kind of started with the opera itself. Many composers did show their guts there,  who´s bigger, deeper... etc.
That´s the reason why I prefer piano concerts and instrumentals any day. In my opinion that´s were the real musical heart of many composers is to find..




yeah but if you listen to the oldest opera recordings they sing more like pop singers, with good diction, earthy and not exaggerated.

melba, patty, tetrazzini etc. sang within a humane perspective.


the institutionalization of opera has given us contests, where students are lined-up in front of professors and voted upon.

obviously the more powerful a professor's say in the matter, the more influence he can have on what characteristics are deemed to be 'ideal' and what are not..

I found it kind of comical to have a conversation with a professor and director on Chopin, and correcting his ignorance in the matter..

the academic system feeds upon itself, it doesn't need to be accurate, it just needs to be in a position to say what is right and wrong and then have the capacity enforce that position.


that's why it's always best to go back to the SOURCE and study all available texts on whatever argument you want to get into.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: jimmyjazz on June 03, 2009, 09:52:31 am
I don't have any of those Sinatra Capitol recordings, Terry -- is there any risk in just picking up the CD(s) at the local music store?  Were there different releases, different mastering jobs, "re-releases", etc. to watch out for?

I have recently upgraded my home stereo with a really nice John Curl amp that I'm about to recap, a passive McCormack preamp, and an Arcam CD player, and I'm having all sorts of fun going through my CD collection.  I need to expand . . .
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: compasspnt on June 03, 2009, 11:30:44 am
The one that is a must-have is

In The Wee Small Hours of the Morning

This is the single greatest album of all time, with the very best of every element. The back story is also perfect.


Also good would be

FS Sings Only For The Lonely

Songs For Swinging Lovers

Come Fly With Me

Many more.

For a humbling experience, check out the wiki discography.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sinatra_discography
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: compasspnt on June 03, 2009, 11:36:54 am
Peter said:


"As far as Musical Arrangements go, Nelsons Riddle’s view was that when Frank Sinatra begins to sing, he gets out of the way, and Frank Sinatra takes the centre stage, he of course quite naturally, is after all The Star."

This is an art so often lost in today's music.

And one reason that to some, the vocal (!) may seem "too loud."

Frank Sinatra's vocal!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Empty Planet on June 03, 2009, 12:08:22 pm

Terry, you are so right about those recordings.

Disagree about the primacy of Wee Small Hours, though of course it's a great album.  Too frakkin' melancholy for my tastes.  I'm a Songs For Swingin' Lovers and A Swingin' Affair man myself.  

Riddle is devastating.  

Many, many a lesson for modern rock arrangers in those recordings.


Cheers.


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on June 03, 2009, 12:30:49 pm
on those records the sound is 50% Sinatra's voice.

the fullest vocal sound ever.


funny thing: I've noticed on one recording from late 60's when sinatra duets with another voice how there is a tinge of sadness (which is easier to put in context because of the other voice).

When you listen to him alone you don't hear it as being sad, but when the other singer comes in..
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: stevieeastend on June 03, 2009, 02:14:41 pm
MDM, wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 15:24


yeah but if you listen to the oldest opera recordings they sing more like pop singers, with good diction, earthy and not exaggerated.

melba, patty, tetrazzini etc. sang within a humane perspective.



What do you think of Elina Garanca? The first time I´ve heard her I was blown away. She got pretty much a lot of what you´re talking about. She´s actually interpreting like she´s meaning every word.
But you do have to have an extra power and technique in order to do so. Remember that only AFTER the line comes natural and easy there´s room for interpretation. Most of nowadays opera singers (and a lot in pop as well, unfortunately) do struggle to hit the line properly. Interpretation would be to much too ask...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: stevieeastend on June 03, 2009, 02:23:40 pm
compasspnt wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 17:36

Peter said:


"As far as Musical Arrangements go, Nelsons Riddle’s view was that when Frank Sinatra begins to sing, he gets out of the way, and Frank Sinatra takes the centre stage, he of course quite naturally, is after all The Star."

This is an art so often lost in today's music.
[/b]



Yeah but what do you do with an average sounding voice? The other way around, make it work like an instrument and let the song work as complete theme without getting the voice to much in the way of the impression of the song... Cool

Sinatra was very concerned with arrangements, songs and production, right? Was it the case that he wanted the music to work perfectly to fit HIM or a perfect capturing of the song/production and his voice as a part of it?

cheers
St
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on June 03, 2009, 04:02:24 pm
steveeastend wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 13:14

MDM, wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 15:24


yeah but if you listen to the oldest opera recordings they sing more like pop singers, with good diction, earthy and not exaggerated.

melba, patty, tetrazzini etc. sang within a humane perspective.



What do you think of Elina Garanca? The first time I´ve heard her I was blown away. She got pretty much a lot of what you´re talking about. She´s actually interpreting like she´s meaning every word.
But you do have to have an extra power and technique in order to do so. Remember that only AFTER the line comes natural and easy there´s room for interpretation. Most of nowadays opera singers (and a lot in pop as well, unfortunately) do struggle to hit the line properly. Interpretation would be to much to ask...




well modern singers have been taught to sing like sirens: the louder the better.. poor diction, lack of interpretation..

in the end it's easier to teach the mechanics of an air-raid siren than to teach someone how to SING in the musical sense of the word.

the classical world is FAR BEHIND on these points, POP music beats the classical musicians every time for sheer musical pathos, performance etc. because it is a living tradition..

at least it has been so.. I can see that in the last decades the push towards institutionalization has hit pretty hard in the pop world as well, although it is much harder to control because new music is being created all the time.


....wait what am I saying... I forgot the sample/copycat/recycle fenomena of the last few years!

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on June 03, 2009, 06:56:02 pm
The remasters/remixes mostly done by Robert Norberg at Capitol on his own Norberg Speakers are very good, use the live chambers and generallly have improved sound of the band, with more bass. Bob often used his own vintage/modified LA2A's and some proprietary widening techniques as well.

bab
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Edvaard on June 03, 2009, 10:40:32 pm
MDM, wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 16:02

[


well modern singers have been taught to sing like sirens: the louder the better.. poor diction, lack of interpretation.

in the end it's easier to teach the mechanics of an air-raid siren than to teach someone how to SING in the musical sense of the word.






That is the funniest thing that I've read in ages, Max, all the moreso because it speaks so much to the truth of the affair.

That "air-raid siren" comment put me on the floor, right away, and I'm still having trouble getting up from that.

Now that I have recovered, somewhat ...  

I recall having a discussion with a voice major when I was in the music department.

I asked her why there was so much vibrato in the singing (which, also, I had then and still have now, some 'issue' with so much vibrato, whether in orchestras or singers), and she said to me, that, as was told to her, "a voice with out vibrato is a voice that is not free".

It took some great restraint upon my part to not respond with what came instantly to mind, that being "well maybe, sometimes, some voices need to be caged."


Sorry, I was just trying to make you laugh as well as you made me laugh in  your post.

All humor aside, I worry as much about "too much vibrato" as you worry about too much volume.


You claim that operatic or classical singers fall behind popular music singers, in some regard, and, not to argue with you on that point, but where do you might think that this might have come from in the first place?

If we were to talk about anything prior to 10 or 15 years ago then operatic singing was my only complaint about "too much vibrato", but now it's caught up to pop, RB, etc. 'singing' too.


I do not need my ears drilled with either excessive volume nor excessive vibrato, howevermuch these folks need to scream to make themselves happy.


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 03, 2009, 11:30:21 pm
Sinatra and Basie: It Might as Well Be Swing.

My personal fav.  the recording fucking kills me, and I have to say on a recording note, I like it more than Wee Small Hours.  It's clearer, the verb makes me happier, and it swings!  The version of "The Best Is Yet To Come" is just insane.  It makes Tony Bennett's version unlistenable, in comparison.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 03, 2009, 11:35:09 pm
Kris wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 05:19

Of course if you were on similar amounts of cocaine at those particular shows, that tempo WAS perfect. Shocked (just don't go back and listen to the bootleg)


Can't say I've ever done blow.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Andy Peters on June 04, 2009, 01:56:02 am
J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 04:43

Kris wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 17:20

And then there was the Grateful Dead...


Who frequently picked the wrong tempo.  I often wondered if it was a case of of much cocaine.  I would always say to myself, "This is WAY too fast for 'Eyes of the World.'"


The polyrhythmic drumming resulted from the two of them simply not being able to hear anything on stage, so they'd each start playing different songs.

-a
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Andy Peters on June 04, 2009, 01:57:43 am
PP wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 00:56

Quote: "The tune that struck me that way was "That's Life".

The point is..

Frank Sinatra was a consummate professional.


In May, 1985, Hoboken's #1 son Francis Albert Sinatra was granted an honorary Doctorate of Engineering by Stevens Institute of Technology in that fair city. (I had just completed my freshman year.)

So, that's DOCTOR Sinatra!

-a
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 04, 2009, 07:29:58 am
Andy Peters wrote on Thu, 04 June 2009 01:56

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 04:43

Kris wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 17:20

And then there was the Grateful Dead...


Who frequently picked the wrong tempo.  I often wondered if it was a case of of much cocaine.  I would always say to myself, "This is WAY too fast for 'Eyes of the World.'"


The polyrhythmic drumming resulted from the two of them simply not being able to hear anything on stage, so they'd each start playing different songs.

-a



Ha!  At least your belittling is funny! Laughing
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on June 04, 2009, 09:58:25 am
Quote:

All humor aside, I worry as much about "too much vibrato" as you worry about too much volume.


oh yeah!  the vibrato is so violent they could be singing a semitone off and you wouldn't notice..

it is all sort of comical isn't it?

and to think that before 1850 the voices were even more human sounding, more refined.. made for salon singing.

Tetrazzini wrote in her book that the trend to eliminate diction from singing was actually detrimental to the Opera, because if people could actually UNDERSTAND the words, it would be so much more entertaining that the opera would get more audience..


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Edvaard on June 04, 2009, 03:05:21 pm

Wow Max, you keep leading us from one good thing to another.

Others should read this too ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luisa_Tetrazzini


What a lady!


I like the part where it says "highest paid singer."


Don't ask me why, but not even caring about 'women's issues', per se, I still seem to take note of such things, like Barbara Stanwyck  making $400,000 in the 40's.

But back to the vibrato issue ...

There were some opera singers I heard, where the voice was just all over the place, not too different than a child who just runs all over the house, running into something, crying, then just doing the same thing again.

But there were some few who did not use vibrato to cover up for lack of intonation, but rather just had a mastery of expression, using the dynamics, rather than perverse pitch change, to 'get the point across'.

Again, thanks for the introduction to Signora Tetrazzini.



Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: ssltech on June 05, 2009, 11:49:37 am
Edvaard wrote

Again, thanks for the introduction to Signora Tetrazzini.



..I heard she was Chicken!

Wink

Joking aside, Thanks Max; -I'm enjoying the education.

Keith
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: compasspnt on June 05, 2009, 01:59:19 pm
Keith is on fire this week.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 05, 2009, 06:00:03 pm
Much thanks for the Frank recommendations.  I made a special trip to the record store today after am enlightening pm with Terry, and now find myself very relaxed...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 05, 2009, 06:28:48 pm
Did you get the Count Basie one?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: rjc on June 05, 2009, 10:04:51 pm
MDM, wrote on Thu, 04 June 2009 06:02

...well modern singers have been taught to sing like sirens: the louder the better.. poor diction, lack of interpretation..

Yes. So anyone who has not first had themselves bound to a mast, is apt to fling themselves into the water in an effort to get away. Wink
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: PP on June 06, 2009, 03:27:41 am
One of my favourite Films of all time is the Ealing Studios black comedy, “Kind Hearts and Coronets”.


'Kind hearts are more than coronets,

And simple faith than Norman blood.'



In 2000,

Readers of Total Film.  

Voted 'Kind Hearts and Coronets'.

The 25th Greatest Comedy Film of all time.

In 2004 they named it the 7th Greatest British Film of all time.

It is set in the Edwardian Period but flashes back to the Era preceding it.

Supposedly featuring, Louis Mazzini who was an Italian Opera Singer the Father of the Films Main Character.

Brilliantly, it amply portrays with considerable accuracy the overly heavy Operatic Vibrato of the period, that was widely considered Vogue in its time.




As a youth, I knew a very great very much older man that had previously been a Professional on the London Stage. But upon conversion to Christianity, had become a Minister, and was now a greatly respected travelling Speaker and Evangelist.  

His Vocal Coach of the time, who himself was of an age, had said to him that he would assist him in Vocal Tone Production, and taught him to speak and read from the Bible in such a way, that brought every nuance of the text alive, in a manner I’ve never heard before, or since.

But when he sang, which he did from the Pulpit with the congregation during Hymns at certain times, his voice became heavily ‘Operatic’ with a continuously wavering Pitch fluctuation, that was so dense you really could not tell, precisely where at all the Pitch was at any moment in time.

The thing was, it made his voice sound to ordinary people, unfamiliar with the changing ‘Operatic Styles’ over time, just like the bleating of a sheep! Now one of the extraordinary wonderful things about going to Church was that I met an incredible amount of extremely lovely, well natured, very beautiful girls.

And I would sit with a whole clutch of them in the back row of the Church and watch them irreverently doubled up in silent laughter, as they tried to sing a hymn, along with the rest of the congregation, fighting back the tears of hilarity, at the dominating projection of such an intensely emotive wavering of sound.

It really did sound quite incredible, and Hymn Books found a new purpose altogether in their hands, as they hid their helplessly laughing faces, as deep as humanly possible within their pages.




And this is the point.

There was a period in which this style of Singing became extremely fashionable, and largely De Rigueur. It is essentially the identical phenomenon, as the modern equivalent we debate today, the absolutely appalling overuse of compression.

Historically, it’s worth reflecting on the fact that most ‘Great Music of Old’ would have originally featured no vibrato at all whatever, much less vibrato altogether, or only vibrato beautifully introduced toward the end of very long sustained notes.

Occasionally used for the purpose of ornamentation.

I tend to like that very much myself.




However where Singing is concerned, and Orchestral Music in certain instances, the amount of detailed knowledge available in archives, is fairly limited, and thus the matter has become the object of great debate and intense scrutiny and interest.

Of course, it’s well worth reflecting on the fact that Ancient Instrument’s of very great Vintage, and Centuries old, did not necessarily enjoy the ‘Absolute Tuning Precision’ or the ‘Tonal Security’, widely available via Equanimously Stable, Musical Instruments, as do Artists of Today.  

Indeed, the Instruments of the Modern Orchestra can be rightly considered to be ‘Highly Evolved’ and even if they look the same, will often feature ‘Discrete Ultra Modern Devices’ to either ‘Enhance’ or ‘Discourage’ inherent features of the Instruments Fundamental Design.




For most of the Twentieth Century, Orchestral Players have applied Vibrato automatically, and only really, since the Seventies have there been well executed attempts, to Produce Recordings on a serious scale, using actual Instrumentation of the Period, reflecting the original Composer's available Instrumentation options and intention.

Although its stretching the point, it’s worth considering that during the second half of The British Empire, the largest formal Empire the World has known, the Victorian Era was awash with pseudo ‘Operatic Styles’ some of which were and became extremely Populist, and thus taken all around the World.

In the days before Radio and Television The D'oyly Carte Operatic Society toured prolifically taking the humorous Music of Gilbert & Sullivan everywhere.

Sir Andrew Lloyd Webber would have grown up, as I did, exposed to this colourful Theatrical Spectacle.

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXWkIZUPmDY&feature=relat ed

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSloW2coCDQ&feature=relat ed

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JEMD5Jtb3A&feature=relat ed

http://www.reallyuseful.com/about-us

http://www.gs-festival.co.uk/




I'm sure.

You like Hammond B3’s & B4’s and Leslie Speakers.

The original name of the Leslie Rotary Speaker was Vibratone.

Leslie Speakers were also called Brittain Speakers, Hollywood Speakers, Crawford Speakers and Leslie Vibratones.

However, most people simply called them Leslie's and in 1949, Don Leslie gave in and completely dropped the name Vibratone.

Graciously leaving aside the highly acclaimed, tremendously  innovative Leslie Speaker and its Organ Controls of ‘Tremolo and Celeste’.




A wider acquaintance with a variety of Organ Manufacturers Products of the time, would have familiarised you with the very common occurrence of far less obtrusive stops like Tremolo, Theatre Organ, Operatic Vibrato, and Chorus all heavily fluctuating, whereas Vibrato, Vibrato I & II, Sustain Vibrato, etc. Were much lighter and more in Vogue.

The salient point to consider here is, that this type of Voice and Singing Style was still about, and prevalent to the extent that its Legacy was both directly and widely reflected in Musical Instrumentation, and indeed, heard on the Radio regularly, and in Live Theatres where old ‘Wurlitzer Type Organs’ still prevailed.

Friday Night is Music Night, regularly featured a Theatre Organ from Blackpool.

And was one of my Fathers listening pleasures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/fridaynight/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHpNgmI0RLs

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW9NTsmhrq0&feature=relat ed




SO the influence of a Heavy Tremolo or Vibrato Style of Sound, lingered for very long while indeed.

And is directly related, to a much earlier, distinct ‘Operatic Vocal Style’ which became popularised.

In perhaps a somewhat caricaturised form, and was thus.

Very prevalent in Theatrical Singing.




Some of you.

May of course, be wondering.

How on Earth you can add a Heavy Vibrato to a Xylophone?

But so much was the Power of Expression felt to be enhanced when a Heavy Vibrato was added.

That in 1921 the Vibraphone and later the VibraHarp were invented, with butterfly valves in their resonating tubes to produce a pronounced Tremolo with the possibility of enhanced Sustain controlled via Damping Mechanism.

Most people love the beautiful Vibrato Effect of Vibes, but don’t realize that its invention is inspired by a period when Tremolo and Vibrato Effects were deemed to be almost, if not completely essential factors, in creating Expressively Beautiful Sound.




I expect.

That most here know of this device.

In the 1940’s Paul A. Bigsby invented a Tremolo or Vibrato for Guitars.


http://www.bigsbyguitars.com/products.html




By designing the ubiquitous Stratocaster, Leo Fender defined and evolved the concept further.

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkevzYfTQoo&feature=relat ed

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1ctz2jT8l8&feature=relat ed




And of course, both Kahler and Floyd Rose took it to yet another level altogether.




Furthermore.

In the late 1940's


Danelectro, Gibson, and Premier.

Incorporated Tremolo circuits into their Guitar Amplifiers.

Later in 1955 Fender introduced their first Guitar Amplifier with Tremolo. The Tremolux (model 5E9).

Then Magna Electronics began manufacturing Professional Amplifiers that incorporated unique designs and revolutionary new features such as Stereo Vibrato.

So in 1956 Fender responded by introducing the Vibrolux. The Vibrolux supposedly had Vibrato (pitch modulation), but in reality this was just another variation on the Tremolo in the Tremolux.

In fact, no Vintage Professional Fender Amplifer has ever had true pitch-bending vibrato, regardless of catalogue hype to the contrary.




There is often a degree of confusion or misunderstanding in regard to these terms.

And sometimes they are used inappropriately.




But Vibrato..

Is essentially a variation in the ‘pitch’ of a musical note, or ‘frequency’ if you prefer.


Whereas, Tremolo..

Usually refers to variations in the volume of a musical note or its amplitude, simulating reiterations.

Both of these terms have long historic roots in Music Notation and its Latin Origins, But in practice, it’s difficult for a either a Singer or a Performer playing a Musical Instrument to achieve an absolutely pure, Vibrato or Tremolo. Where there is variance, only involving Pitch or Volume alone, and it is usually the case that variations in both Pitch and Volume will often coincide.

They have a mutually reciprocating, closely symbiotic, relationship.




This is the underlying reason for the apparent interchangea’bility of use in regard to these terms.

They are and remain different components, that in my opinion may be regarded to be at their most useful and beauteous, when they are combined in varying degrees to create a desired effect, most tastefully appropriate, for the specific Musical situation.




Although devotees have raged about these matters for Centuries, and there are particular arguments that exist on either side of a deeply polarized debate. These frankly, hold little interest for me, for as I have already indicated, what really matters to me is what was actually in the mind of the Composer.

Once that is determined, you are faced with the question of either reproducing the Work largely utilizing Modern Day, Highly Evolved Musical Instruments of Great Stability and Accuracy of Intonation or what are often essentially Replicas, however well made, or less than ideal condition Musical Instruments of Very Great Vintage.

These Specialized Instruments can be extremely expensive to obtain, presuming its possible to, even if they are replica’s, and they will be difficult and expensive to maintain.

But used properly, they can impart a distinctive quality of deeply revealing sound, that for some means, ‘There’s no going back to the Future!’

However, there is unfortunately, an important consequence emerging from such ventures utilising these Instruments.

For more often than not, they remain absolutely perfect vehicles for a very specific, limited range of Music.

And of relatively little use really, in the broader overall spectrum, of the available Repertoire.

And this of course, is why these Musical instruments have evolved over time.

And matured into the form with the concomitant capabilities.

We recognise and experience today.




Please appreciate that if your Musical Instrument is Highly Accurate in Pitch, the possibilities of endless degrees of variety, in the application of Vibrato, becomes an additional creative factor some will relentlessly want to exploit.

It’s really all a matter of both interpretation, and the practical viability of whether it is even possible to bring together an Ensemble of highly accomplished Players with Musical Instruments of Very Great Vintage.




It’s also worth asking yourself, this profoundly deep, incisively perspicacious question.




If a Composer.

Was actually alive today.

And had available to them, a more beautiful sounding Musical Instrument, of Far Greater Accuracy in Pitch, Tonally Secure being far more Stable, with a Greater Useable Compass altogether.

Would he still remain committed, utterly captivated by the Sound of Less Pitch Accurate Instruments, that were far more Unstable, with a Lesser Range?





In my experience.

All Great Composers were and remain.  

Quick to employ, every innovative benefit available.

To the extent that many have been deeply involved in the Invention.

Development and Evolution of the Musical Instruments of The Orchestra, as we know them today.

For me, it is not a foregone conclusion that they themselves would ever want to hold onto, past methods of rendering their Music.

I am happy that the World is large enough, and the interest profound enough, to allow for entirely different viewpoints and interpretations to be available.

Indeed, I believe that were the Composer’s alive today, they would be enchanted, delighted and enthralled that their Works received, so Variationist  a range of Performance.




I would.

Wouldn’t you?

Hundreds of years later!




Although it was before my time.

And the lady was a formidable force, tremendously well loved.

It’s well recognised that Tetrazzini was completely out performed by Dame Nellie Melba.

Who could be extremely uncharitable to her competition and was renowned for upstaging other brilliant Performers. Her recordings even cost more!

On 15 June 1920 Dame Nellie Melba made a historically famous broadcast from Chelmsford, recognised as the first live public entertainment broadcast ever to be made.




And I am happy.

To present to you.


The very Microphones she used.

And pictures of her Singing into them that are posted below.

With an extraordinary selection of Vintage Microphones, that is just a very small part.

Of an incredible Collection of Historically Significant Inventions located for prosperity here at Oxford.




In 2004 the Marconi Collection

Was presented to the University of Oxford by the Marconi Corporation.

The Critically Acclaimed On Line Exhibition is considered so significant, that it has won a BAFTA Factual Award.

This large and unrivalled archive of objects and documents records the work of Guglielmo Marconi and the Wireless Telegraph Company he founded.




The documents are kept in the Bodleian Library

http://www.ouls.ox.ac.uk/bodley

http://www.flickr.com/photos/classicalmania/2286678541/




And the objects, in the Museum of the History of Science.

http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/about/

http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/index.htm




Please scroll down and click on the Jpeg's to access highly detailed, full sized pictures.

Here is Dame Nellie Melba actually making her famous broadcast in 1920, using the microphone now in the exhibition.

And in detailed close up the microphone used on 15 June for her famous broadcast from Chelmsford, the first live public entertainment broadcast ever.


http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/marconi/presspack/#technical_info


She has signed it ‘Nellie Melba 1920’.





The Marconi Company’s Recording Studio in Chelmsford in 1920 with a Male Artist Singing into a Microphone.


http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/marconi/exhibition/broadcasting.htm




The Museums online systems.

Do not allow the pictures mentioned below to be directly hyperlinked.

But if you wish to peruse the online exhibition and catalogue at your leisure you will find.

http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/marconi/



A microphone that was made by Marzi.

For Captain H J Round's telephony experiments in 1910.



A  microphone used in the early days of broadcasting. 1923.



The Round-Sykes moving coil microphone in the BBC studio at Savoy Hill, London.

When the BBC was created, the studios were moved from Marconi House to Savoy Hill.



The Royal Microphone, also known as the King's Microphone, pictured on display in the window of Marconi House, The Strand, London c.1923.

The passers by admiring the 'Royal Microphone', also known as the King's Microphone, in the showroom window.



The original Sykes microphone that was used for broadcasting until 1923 when Captain H J Round developed an improved version which became standard use in London and other broadcasting stations.

With six paperbound coils in massive cast-iron frame with circular end - 33cm (13in.) diameter.

Teak case with rubber seal round mouthpiece aperture.




In the Museum there are an innumerable amount of Historic Artefacts that would be of great interest to many.

Like the very first Experimental Valves made, and other Pioneering Electrical Equipment.

There are even Telegrams from The Titanic.


The Morse Code Signal CQD.

Predated

SOS.





P
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on June 06, 2009, 05:50:21 am
people may recognize Melba because her name was used for Melba Toast, I think.. another culinary offspin of Opera as mentioned was Chicken Tetrazzini..


interesting thing on that museum page,  there is the receiver of Marconi's first TRANSATLANTIC radio transmission..

it looks like a PASSIVE coil wound up and connected to a cristal earpiece..


if you think about the implications of this it's staggering..

basically Marconi was able to be heard across the atlantic with a weak spark-gap generator radio signal, and the signal was strong enough to be heard on the handheld passive receiver..

today with the billions of watts of radio waves, computer radiation etc. he would not have heard a thing.

the world was completely devoid of radio and electromagnetic interference.

I wonder how that would have affected the psyche of people living in that era...

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 06, 2009, 12:49:05 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 05 June 2009 18:28

Did you get the Count Basie one?


They didn't have it, but Lyra picked out some Basie in your honor...(pretty good selection for her first trip to the record store!  And all for less than $30!)

index.php/fa/12518/0/
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: A.J. on June 06, 2009, 04:24:26 pm
Kris wrote on Sat, 06 June 2009 12:49

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 05 June 2009 18:28

Did you get the Count Basie one?


They didn't have it, but Lyra picked out some Basie in your honor...(pretty good selection for her first trip to the record store!  And all for less than $30!)

index.php/fa/12518/0/

Great Photo!!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 06, 2009, 10:29:15 pm
PP wrote on Sat, 06 June 2009 03:27


In fact, no Vintage Professional Fender Amplifer has ever had true pitch-bending vibrato, regardless of catalogue hype to the contrary.




There is often a degree of confusion or misunderstanding in regard to these terms.

And sometimes they are used inappropriately.




But Vibrato..

Is essentially a variation in the ‘pitch’ of a musical note, or ‘frequency’ if you prefer.


Whereas, Tremolo..

Usually refers to variations in the volume of a musical note or its amplitude, simulating reiterations.

Both of these terms have long historic roots in Music Notation and its Latin Origins, But in practice, it’s difficult for a either a Singer or a Performer playing a Musical Instrument to achieve an absolutely pure, Vibrato or Tremolo. Where there is variance, only involving Pitch or Volume alone, and it is usually the case that variations in both Pitch and Volume will often coincide.

They have a mutually reciprocating, closely symbiotic, relationship.




This is the underlying reason for the apparent interchangea’bility of use in regard to these terms.

They are and remain different components, that in my opinion may be regarded to be at their most useful and beauteous, when they are combined in varying degrees to create a desired effect, most tastefully appropriate, for the specific Musical situation.



P


Here's one of my most prized posessions... mainly because of it's sweet, sweet tremolo (as you can see labeled vibrato)... I just describe it as milky...approx. 15 years older than me, an so much wiser!...

index.php/fa/12519/0/
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Edvaard on June 06, 2009, 11:20:34 pm
Kris wrote on Sat, 06 June 2009 12:49

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 05 June 2009 18:28

Did you get the Count Basie one?


They didn't have it, but Lyra picked out some Basie in your honor...(pretty good selection for her first trip to the record store!  And all for less than $30!)

index.php/fa/12518/0/



As they say, you have to learn how to crawl before you walk, but this is such blatant evidence that dancing comes to us long before walking.

That particular 'look in the eye', the perfect hand thrust, just as on her back, hardly knowing what she;s doing or how that came her to at all.

We sometimes have to figure out what's 'wired into' us and not, folks.


After all that, I only intend compliment here.

Cute baby, and she looks quite lively.


I bet she keeps the home folks busy.


Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on June 07, 2009, 12:42:22 am
OK, this comment in NO WAY has anything to do with that cute baby.  I was reading the thread title and this popped into my head.  And because my brain has no filter, I am typing that thought here.

Gearslutz -- where the misshapen go to fight it out with the malnourished.


Barry
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Hank Alrich on June 07, 2009, 10:31:56 am
SneerSltuz R Us?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on June 07, 2009, 04:54:22 pm
Yeah  what Barry said  feed that thing!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on June 07, 2009, 04:55:42 pm
j/k shes adorable of course
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 08, 2009, 07:52:41 am
lol!
Edvaard wrote on Sat, 06 June 2009 23:20

As they say, you have to learn how to crawl before you walk, but this is such blatant evidence that dancing comes to us long before walking.

That particular 'look in the eye', the perfect hand thrust, just as on her back, hardly knowing what she;s doing or how that came her to at all.

We sometimes have to figure out what's 'wired into' us and not, folks.



I figure it starts with the first 4 heartbeats!  (The average resting human heart rate is about 70 bpm according to wikipedia)
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on June 08, 2009, 12:34:40 pm
Ah, Wikipedia: Where the misinformed go to post it for the uneducated.

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 08, 2009, 12:44:56 pm
Ouch! Laughing
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: compasspnt on June 08, 2009, 05:26:10 pm
Funny indeed Barry, but I also heard that Wiki has been shown to be at least as accurate as Brittanica.

At least The News said that.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on June 08, 2009, 11:45:17 pm
I have no data on that.  I don't know what the facts are.

Barry
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on June 08, 2009, 11:47:23 pm
compasspnt wrote on Mon, 08 June 2009 17:26

At least The News said that.


...which is as accurate as...

Fill in the blank, folks.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 09, 2009, 09:22:24 am
...JJs microphone knowledge? Shocked
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 10, 2009, 07:43:48 am
http://www.owlpages.com/the-owls/pictures/orly_owl.jpg
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on June 10, 2009, 08:18:07 am
How long before a temporary webpage becomes a permanent one...

Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 10, 2009, 09:53:25 am
Again from Wikipedia:

"Some internet forum trolls may also reply "O RLY?" in response to a lengthy or overly detailed post."

Shocked  Shocked  Shocked
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 10, 2009, 01:19:04 pm
Nevermind.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 10, 2009, 01:24:25 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 05:18

How long before a temporary webpage becomes a permanent one...




FTFY.  (Kris can wiki that, too.)
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 10, 2009, 01:37:26 pm
No bone... just thought I was being funny and that you could take it!  You can definately dish it!  I guess if we were friends it would have been funny...

It's quite obvious that you have extensive mic knowledge which is why I assumed you'd get it...

Sorry if I offended
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 10, 2009, 01:45:16 pm
Sean Eldon Qualls wrote on Mon, 08 June 2009 23:47

compasspnt wrote on Mon, 08 June 2009 17:26

At least The News said that.


...which is as accurate as...

Fill in the blank, folks.



Gearslutz!!!  Ha ha ha.

(better JJ?)
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 10, 2009, 01:46:53 pm
Well, it's hard to tell.  I can take it, but I perhaps misread your tone, as happens on the Interwebs.  If Terry teases me, I know we are friends, and he's just giving me shit.  I wasn't sure where you are coming from.

Now that I know where you're coming from, absolutely no offense taken!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 10, 2009, 01:49:49 pm
My bad.  Let it be known then that I consider you a cool dude with a possibly twisted sense of humor(based on what I read through the computer).  I also enjoy the music you produce (that I've heard).
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 10, 2009, 01:51:38 pm
I also delclare the same feelings towards Sean (the OP)... especially since he changed his sig (which I think is the classy thing to do).  I try hard not to be offensive in print but I may have failed a bit as of late...
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 10, 2009, 02:31:26 pm
The rest of you guys... eh, not so much!
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on June 10, 2009, 02:52:30 pm
Kris wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 13:51

I also delclare the same feelings towards Sean (the OP)... especially since he changed his sig (which I think is the classy thing to do).


I definitely didn't change it for "classy" reasons. I just don't really want to think about Gearsl*tz, even for a chuckle...this thread is good enough for me!

Dave Hecht is great, and everything, but Marnie Stern makes me wish kidnapping-for-marriage were socially acceptable.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 10, 2009, 03:31:50 pm
I was tempted to write that for you, as I knew that's how you'd feel... still imo it was a classy move.  Sorry! Very Happy
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: i dig music on June 11, 2009, 03:31:27 pm
PSW and GS forum web stats and rank:

http://alexa.com/siteinfo/prosoundweb.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/gearslutz.com
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on June 12, 2009, 07:05:30 am
A quick look at the graphs give some indication to the chaos over there.

index.php/fa/12566/0/
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: i dig music on June 12, 2009, 09:05:32 am
Fiasco wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 06:05

A quick look at the graphs give some indication to the chaos over there.




Chaos?

You've got to be kidding.

Right??????

Have a look at GS's traffic rank: 12,211 this month.

PSW's: 108,489

To put that in some perspective.........

beyonceonline.com: 37,009

A popular independent music site.....amiestreet.com: 30,890

If you understand how internet advertising works...CPM/CPC etc.....

Bottom line is........

GS makes Jules bucket load's of cash with that rank.


Call the people at GS what you want, but let's applaud Jules success and longevity.

Also, I'd like to add again that Jules would not allow a "let's bash PSW" thread to exist on his forum.

Its weak at best.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 12, 2009, 09:37:34 am
Hey, I already said he's got the formula that works for him, and it seems to be successful.  There's PSW bashing over there, though.  They just haven't started a thread dedicated to it yet.

But if you look at those numbers, I'll go back to one of the old comparisons between the two, that also holds up with those numbers:  PSW = AES and GS = NAMM.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: jimmyjazz on June 12, 2009, 09:46:33 am
i dig music wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 08:05

If you understand how internet advertising works...CPM/CPC etc.....


Actually, I have no idea.  How do those data translate into dollars?

I like Jules.  Had lunch with him once, but that's the extent of my "offline" interaction with the guy.  I will say that his site name is very unfortunate, and it conveys a sense of amateurism.  That's probably the main reason I've never spent much time there.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: MDM, on June 12, 2009, 10:30:49 am
I think it's just the old 80/20 rule.

if you want to make money with volume/hits, you have to have a standard which is going to be in line with 80% of the people.

excellence is by definition something which belongs to a small percentage... people who excel.



Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on June 12, 2009, 03:44:49 pm
Kris wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 15:31

I was tempted to write that for you, as I knew that's how you'd feel... still imo it was a classy move.  Sorry! Very Happy


How classy is it to bring it back? Extremely, right?

Don't fret, Dave...you're in good company. You've gotta admit though, she's a little easier on the eyes:

http://www.plushtucson.com/band_images/1318/702.jpg
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Kris on June 12, 2009, 05:06:52 pm
K.  You're definately not classy at all...  My bad.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on June 12, 2009, 05:19:20 pm
Kris wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 17:06

K.  You're definately not classy at all...  My bad.


I believe I have plenty of class...just not in this regard.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Edvaard on June 13, 2009, 02:16:37 am
As long as this thread has gone so completely off topic (which is actually fine with me) and gone completely haywire, I'd like to say that I like JJ's new avatar; "Richard Petty having run off to Mexico, in his brief 'I wuz an almost liberal for a short period of time and I had to leave the country so others didn't see this side of me' period."

Quite original and inventive.



Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: rjc on June 13, 2009, 02:56:44 am
Edvaard wrote on Sat, 13 June 2009 16:16

Quite original and inventive.

Maybe. But I confess I liked the CS-1 ear extensions better.  Neutral
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Edvaard on June 13, 2009, 03:05:55 am
Ear extensions ...

-yawn-

If you know anything about reflexology at all, this new-fangled 5.1 stuff should be re-directed to our toes.



Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on June 13, 2009, 04:29:53 pm
this thread is played!

bab
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: rollmottle on June 13, 2009, 08:48:11 pm
"Impressions of Gearslutz from a newbie"

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/3 95552-impressions-gearslutz-newbie.html

Quote:

I thought it would be interesting for me to give you feedback on what a typical person of average skill and intelligence has gathered from reading Gearslutz. I am a blank slate, and have literally been reading the forum 12 hours a day for the last 2 weeks.

1. Low-end gear means anything under $2000.
2. Everything made by Neumann is crap today. I mean Grade-A dog diarrhea. People only use it because of hype or because they have deals (like LA Guitar Quartet - the KM184 actually SUCKS for guitars, but they have an endorsement so they HAVE to use them...)
3. The Yamaha NS-10M is the worst speaker in the world. The sound is somewhat like putting tape over the mouths of two macaws and tasing them simultaneously (make sure they aren't flush against the wall).
4. The only monitors anyone should ever use are the ADAM A7's or maybe - JUST MAYBE - the Barefoot speakers or the Dynaudio M3's. And you really need a sub for those.
5. Avalon 737 is trash.
6. Avalon 747 is trash.
7. The Avalon M5 is OK "for bass."
8. The only mics that can be used for classical guitar are the $2500 Schoeps or some equally priced Sennheiser. Otherwise, nothing in your mic cabinet will work.
9. Teams of well-paid German, Austrian, and Russian engineers consistently miss the mark, because any piece of equipment can be modded by you for $30 in parts to make it sound "just like a Neumann XX" (vintage of course).
10. Anything with the number "500" on it is a great piece of gear.
11. Anything that says Apogee is good.
12. Anything that has a cat logo or the name of a type of cat is good.
13. The Fireface is really the only firewire interface anyone should ever consider. Everything else - EVERYTHING - belongs in the skip.
14. Why aren't you using a Mac?
15. The TLM 103 is by far the worst microphone made. It makes everything sound like Fiona Apple wrapped in carpet.
16. The TLM 49 is a close second. It makes everything sound like Barry White garggling wasps.
17. You should've gotten a Soundelux U195. God, it is so much better than any Neumann.
18. Or a Peluso 2247.
19. If it doesn't say Neve, it is crap.
20. If it doesn't say API, it is crap.
21. If it doesn't say Manley, it is crap.
22. In a "comparison post," whatever YOU own is BETTER, regardless of whether you've ever heard of it or used it, or if your gear was even listed in the OP's comparison.
23. Any piece of equipment that is available at Guitar Center or American Musical is crap, except maybe a U87, but that is junk too unless someone from GS swallows it and sh*ts it out, a technique used to simulate 40 years of delicate aging.
24. Any gear that is good must've been pulled out of a much larger object and modified to fit in a rack by the actual person that designed it.
25. Trident is now crap.
26. The jury is still out on Toft, but we're pretty sure it is crap since it is often mentioned in the same breath as Joe Meek.
27. Did I mention that Genelec makes the WORST monitors in the world? Just absolute horse-sh*t.
28. Anything touched by Joly is better than any mic ever created, including a vintage U47.
29. Anything that starts with a G is a good piece of gear (Great River, Grace, Golden Age, Gefell, Grado) EXCEPT Genelec, of course.
30. There is no gear - NONE - worse than Mackie. Mackie is worse than late 80's Nady gear. The HR824's woofers are made of goat dung and the tweeters are made from the severed wings of demon locusts, and to dare use anything with a Mackie pre will summon brutish beasts from Netherworld who will feast on the souls of your family.
31. Bring your lunchbox everywhere, because no commercial studio has anything that competes with the 512c.
32. U87's are not compatible with anything made by Universal Audio (which is all crap anyway, just unusable)
33. The Shure SM7 is awesome... BUT IT BETTER BE AN A/B/(no letter).



Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on June 13, 2009, 10:18:21 pm
Thanks!  You've saved me weeks of reading and years of therapy from having read.

Barry
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 14, 2009, 03:05:18 pm
He started off OK, except for the hyperbole.  But the hyperbole was funny as hell.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 14, 2009, 03:08:24 pm
Edvaard wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 23:16

As long as this thread has gone so completely off topic (which is actually fine with me) and gone completely haywire, I'd like to say that I like JJ's new avatar; "Richard Petty having run off to Mexico, in his brief 'I wuz an almost liberal for a short period of time and I had to leave the country so others didn't see this side of me' period."

Quite original and inventive.


Swear to God, I'm sitting poolside in Cabo as I type this.  That was a pic of me at a Cinco de Mayo gig last month: Border Patrol Glasses, pornstache, sombrero.  A friend of mine called it "Dirty Harry Sanchez."
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Tomas Danko on June 14, 2009, 03:16:06 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 14 June 2009 20:08

Edvaard wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 23:16

As long as this thread has gone so completely off topic (which is actually fine with me) and gone completely haywire, I'd like to say that I like JJ's new avatar; "Richard Petty having run off to Mexico, in his brief 'I wuz an almost liberal for a short period of time and I had to leave the country so others didn't see this side of me' period."

Quite original and inventive.


Swear to God, I'm sitting poolside in Cabo as I type this.  That was a pic of me at a Cinco de Mayo gig last month: Border Patrol Glasses, pornstache, sombrero.  A friend of mine called it "Dirty Harry Sanchez."


El Avataros Los Muy Caliente!


Ps. Recent session pictures on the Mexican Decca setup, ideal for Mariachi and such. One of the guys shouldn't be facing anywhere, though.

http://www.cjsr.ualberta.ca/cms/news/jpegs/The-Three-Amigos-Photograph-C10101975.jp
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on June 15, 2009, 09:02:07 am
J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 14 June 2009 15:08

Swear to God, I'm sitting poolside in Cabo as I type this.  That was a pic of me at a Cinco de Mayo gig last month: Border Patrol Glasses, pornstache, sombrero.  A friend of mine called it "Dirty Harry Sanchez."


Gotta congratulate you on that moustache. It's a real winner. Grow it back.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 15, 2009, 11:35:57 am
It's from the costume store, actually.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on June 15, 2009, 12:05:46 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Mon, 15 June 2009 11:35

It's from the costume store, actually.


Implant surgery...Miracle Gro...whatever you gotta do, man. It'll be worth it.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: George_ on June 16, 2009, 04:01:35 am
Tomas Danko wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:39

Practically speaking, they are moderating outside the boundaries of their community. (Meaning, they can't moderate what you say elsewhere but they do expand their boundaries for the community to include anything you state elsewhere in their evaluation of your access to the community).
If you behave totally fine there, why censor you because of something you say elsewhere?

It's like banning someone because you don't like what he or she stands for, no matter how polite he or she is within the community in question. Actually, that's pretty much the only reason for their action.


banned  Laughing
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 16, 2009, 09:19:42 pm
I'm going to start referring to my wedding tackle as "The Three Amigos."
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: jetbase on June 16, 2009, 09:23:49 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 17 June 2009 11:19

I'm going to start referring to my wedding tackle as "The Three Amigos."


You sure you wanna associate your wedding tackle with Martin Short?
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on June 16, 2009, 09:57:07 pm
jetbase wrote on Tue, 16 June 2009 21:23

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 17 June 2009 11:19

I'm going to start referring to my wedding tackle as "The Three Amigos."


You sure you wanna associate your wedding tackle with Martin Short?


Look at it this way, he could've said "Jackie Brown" and confused everyone.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: J.J. Blair on June 17, 2009, 02:20:32 pm
jetbase wrote on Tue, 16 June 2009 18:23

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 17 June 2009 11:19

I'm going to start referring to my wedding tackle as "The Three Amigos."


You sure you wanna associate your wedding tackle with Martin Short?


Sure.  Martin is the one of the right, since the left hangs lower.
Title: Re: "Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed"
Post by: Barry Hufker on June 17, 2009, 03:25:28 pm
WAAAAAYYYY Too Much Information...


Careful.  I'm think more 3 Stooges for you than Three Amigos...

(Mole, Hairy and Curly)

Barry