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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => R/E/P Saloon => Topic started by: mgod on September 25, 2008, 01:09:12 pm

Title: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: mgod on September 25, 2008, 01:09:12 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09 /24/AR2008092403033.html?hpid%3Dopinionsbox1&sub=new

and then there's this problem:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09 /24/AR2008092402799.html
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: John Ivan on September 25, 2008, 01:18:23 pm
From the article:

"Ironically, the intervention could even trigger additional failures of large institutions, because some institutions may be carrying troubled assets on their books at inflated values," Orszag said in his testimony. "Establishing clearer prices might reveal those institutions to be insolvent."


This is going to hurt, but in the end, our grand kids will be glad.. Continuing to prop this all up falsely over a longer period of time was impossible as it turns out, and would have been just mean.. There could have been ways in the works to "Fake " Liquidity over an even longer time period. This would only make it worse.

I say we need to know what's on the books. Bad investments and all.

What assets? Shocked

Ivan....................
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: Jay Kadis on September 25, 2008, 01:18:28 pm
I'm beginning to think this is being oversold the same way as the Iraq war.  Let's slow down a little and think this through.  Personally I haven't experienced anything like the dire consequences predicted, but then I've always been practical about borrowing and lived within my means.  No one I know is losing their house to foreclosure, although there do appear to be many in that situation.

Frankly I could afford to pay more in taxes IF they were actually used to provide public services, education, health care.  Not for more military hardware nor for Wall Street.
Title: The Mexican bailout plan
Post by: YZ on September 25, 2008, 04:44:51 pm
Not too long ago...

Mexico Bailout Mistakes May Provide Lessons for U.S. Lawmakers

 http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=a995 IUbqAcaM&refer=latinamerica

Interesting read.

Title: Re: The Mexican bailout plan
Post by: Nick Sevilla on September 25, 2008, 05:01:23 pm
YZ wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 13:44

Not too long ago...

Mexico Bailout Mistakes May Provide Lessons for U.S. Lawmakers

  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=a995 IUbqAcaM&refer=latinamerica

Interesting read.




Thanks for posting this.

As a Mexican, I am not surprised at what is going on here in the USA.

It's just a copy of  both the Bush election stealing (VS mexicna PRI party doing it for 72 years), and now the fake bailout, (which used to occur every six years, the year BEFORE a President left office, like clockwork).

They are only missing two big things now, one is to privatize social security. this was done in mexico to devastating effect. And two, to nationalize the banks, having the government own the banks outright.

It's coming, brace yourselves. After that, anyone speaking against the government / people in power, will disappear. And it will happen, just like in Mexico for over 60 years.

Bush has already put asked For privatization of social security, doe anyone remember? Two years ago.

Let's hope congress is not as stupid and greedy as it has been when it was Republican controlled.

But I do not get my hopes up...

Cheers
Title: Re: The Mexican bailout plan
Post by: RSettee on September 25, 2008, 05:09:08 pm
It's overinflated for a few reasons--but namely because when you do things like drive your car off the lot or open the wrapper on something or take it home, you instantly lose much value. And the credit institutions are dealing with houses that aren't worth their market value, cars that aren't worth their market value (the auto makers have discontinued rentals, because no one was buying the vehicles out at the end of the lease). Then the loans aren't worth near that much, because, let's say you take out a loan on a car for 20 grand and default after paying off a grand. Well, with depreciation, all I have to say is "good luck" to the banks trying to get that money back. In repo sales, bankrupcy sales, fire sales, everyone else is getting a deal but the credit institutions and the lenders. That's not a problem when a few people do it, but when lots of people do it, you end up with needing a good portion of that 700 billion. A few thousand, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe a million or two people overextended past their reasonable credit/ principal/ equity payments means that you're inherently doomed.
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: John Ivan on September 25, 2008, 07:10:03 pm
Jay Kadis wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 13:18

I'm beginning to think this is being oversold the same way as the Iraq war.  Let's slow down a little and think this through.  Personally I haven't experienced anything like the dire consequences predicted, but then I've always been practical about borrowing and lived within my means.  No one I know is losing their house to foreclosure, although there do appear to be many in that situation.

Frankly I could afford to pay more in taxes IF they were actually used to provide public services, education, health care.  Not for more military hardware nor for Wall Street.



Interesting. I do very little banking, don't use but one credit card that carries no balance, and do not care AT ALL about "being invested". I never will either.. I'm not interested in "Owning" a house either.

When I die, I will have enough money to pay a few months worth of bills.. Money is mostly just a small pain in the ass. I have to collect some every month so I can hand it out..

This hasn't effected me much yet..

Ivan..............
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: jimlongo on September 25, 2008, 07:56:28 pm
John Ivan wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 19:10

Jay Kadis wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 13:18

I'm beginning to think this is being oversold the same way as the Iraq war.  Let's slow down a little and think this through.  Personally I haven't experienced anything like the dire consequences predicted, but then I've always been practical about borrowing and lived within my means.  No one I know is losing their house to foreclosure, although there do appear to be many in that situation.

Frankly I could afford to pay more in taxes IF they were actually used to provide public services, education, health care.  Not for more military hardware nor for Wall Street.



Interesting. I do very little banking, don't use but one credit card that carries no balance, and do not care AT ALL about "being invested". I never will either.. I'm not interested in "Owning" a house either.

When I die, I will have enough money to pay a few months worth of bills.. Money is mostly just a small pain in the ass. I have to collect some every month so I can hand it out..

This hasn't effected me much yet..

Ivan..............


I take it you're not putting kids through college at the moment?
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: John Ivan on September 25, 2008, 11:32:45 pm
jimlongo wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 19:56

John Ivan wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 19:10

Jay Kadis wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 13:18

I'm beginning to think this is being oversold the same way as the Iraq war.  Let's slow down a little and think this through.  Personally I haven't experienced anything like the dire consequences predicted, but then I've always been practical about borrowing and lived within my means.  No one I know is losing their house to foreclosure, although there do appear to be many in that situation.

Frankly I could afford to pay more in taxes IF they were actually used to provide public services, education, health care.  Not for more military hardware nor for Wall Street.



Interesting. I do very little banking, don't use but one credit card that carries no balance, and do not care AT ALL about "being invested". I never will either.. I'm not interested in "Owning" a house either.

When I die, I will have enough money to pay a few months worth of bills.. Money is mostly just a small pain in the ass. I have to collect some every month so I can hand it out..

This hasn't effected me much yet..

Ivan..............


I take it you're not putting kids through college at the moment?




This is correct. I have a Ten year old Boy and I will do what I can to help him in any way I can.

Having said that, I could really give a shit about whether or not he goes and hands these people a bunch of money to receive a College education. If this is important to him that's fine but it isn't to me, and I know way to many people who can't think their way out of roten, wet paper bag who have spent 8 years in College when they could have been doing something , well, "else".

When I need to know something, I go learn it.

This idea people have about investing money in the future much past a few months, is amuzing to me. When I was in school, my instincts told me I was wasting my time. I was right. In my case, it was a waste. I left at 15 years old and wish I had done so at twelve.

I think it's wonderful that people feel the need for enlightenment. What sadens me is what passes for it, and where people turn for it.

My Son wants to play music for a living. I don't like it one bit to be honest with you. Music is valued less and less everyday by all these crazy degree holding geniuses out there and I've made it very clear to him that if he wants to do this for a living, he needs to be a motherfucker on at least three axes, be really good at making records and be willing to work 46.9 hours, per hour.. On top of that, he needs to know that the world is simply ugly. The people who run it don't care about him and he needs to do absolutely everything himself, {this includes playing the bass lines right. God help us.} He needs to insist on the music in his head being the music that is getting recorded today. He needs to say "NO! There will be sharp 11 there or I'll kill the whole deal and go fishing, right now.".. In other words, he needs to own every aspect of his art. And he needs to work harder than every other person alive..

I believe, very strongly, that going to college will only slow this effort down. The same is true in the case of his choosing carpentry.

Steal the text books and get a job already. Times a wastin'.

Ivan...................  
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: Jay Kadis on September 26, 2008, 10:12:35 am
jimlongo wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 16:56

John Ivan wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 19:10

Jay Kadis wrote on Thu, 25 September 2008 13:18

I'm beginning to think this is being oversold the same way as the Iraq war.  Let's slow down a little and think this through.  Personally I haven't experienced anything like the dire consequences predicted, but then I've always been practical about borrowing and lived within my means.  No one I know is losing their house to foreclosure, although there do appear to be many in that situation.

Frankly I could afford to pay more in taxes IF they were actually used to provide public services, education, health care.  Not for more military hardware nor for Wall Street.



Interesting. I do very little banking, don't use but one credit card that carries no balance, and do not care AT ALL about "being invested". I never will either.. I'm not interested in "Owning" a house either.

When I die, I will have enough money to pay a few months worth of bills.. Money is mostly just a small pain in the ass. I have to collect some every month so I can hand it out..

This hasn't effected me much yet..

Ivan..............


I take it you're not putting kids through college at the moment?

Stanford University (my employer) has instituted free tuition for qualified applicants.

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2006/march15/tuition-0 31506.html
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: rphilbeck on September 26, 2008, 05:43:06 pm
John,

That is pathetic.

Robert
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: John Ivan on September 26, 2008, 06:07:10 pm
RPhilbeck wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 17:43

John,

That is pathetic.

Robert





Listen man, after reading what you have to say, I find it amazing that you have the nerve to point to anything or anyone on earth and call it pathetic. Did you go to School? Your a complete moron. I'm not being funny at all. My 10 year old son has a better handle on right and wrong than you do. Talk about pathetic.


You can believe that all these mechanisms we have in place for learning and gathering wealth are wonderful if you want to, I guess. I think it's all a big distraction.

Another thing, there's a part of this conversation you don't even get to have unless you struggle with a musical instrument every day of your life, and do it because you have to in order to "be well".. How's THAT for some elitist grist for the mill?

Of course, I knew what I wanted to do when I was a little kid.I wish I could take it all back. A large part of regrets ever sharing my musical inner being with anyone but myself. The idea that you, for instance, might actually hear me makes me sick. I also knew that Americans who call themselves conservatives tend to be a bunch of ass holes who misuse the word conservative altogether. Sorta like you. Short sighted, greedy, self important, mean spirited, uninformed, lying, sick person. Yes?

Tell me Phil. Why do I have a ten year old who literally knows more than you about the Human being? Why Phil? He's smarter, a nicer guy, and understands the net worth of the human soul better than you.. This is simply as true as a tree..

So come to Traverse City Michigan ,walk right up to me, and call me pathetic.. PLEASE do this. What fun..

Piggy Piggy Piggy.. Oh! I see. Your name is BOB..Sorry, all this time I've been calling "it" Phil. Yawn is right.


Ivan.................


Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: rphilbeck on September 26, 2008, 07:33:52 pm
You have never been to college.  How would you know anything about it?  Well, you wouldn't, like most other things you talk about. I'm sorry sir, but you don't have the background to opine on much of anything. School is important.  Especially higher education.  Please stop suggesting it isn't.

Furthermore, in the past you've made no bones about your willingness to lie, cheat and steal for whatever reason you see fit.  Don't make me dig up that old post.  Here you are again talking about stealing stuff.  
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: RSettee on September 26, 2008, 07:42:49 pm
I agree with John in alot of senses, because here's the thing--in order to circumvent being just another working shlub, you've gotta go and get a college degree, but that takes years to do, and years of debts. By the time you get out, you're 10, 20, 30....maybe 100 grand in debt (if not more). In alot of ways, I don't think that helps the economy, because before you've earned a cent and can prove that you can make your way, you're already in debt. I saw this happen when the computer programming thing came around in 1999-2003 (largely the boom of the "illusion" of more jobs being created). More jobs were being created, yes, but not to fulfill this growth illusion that they promised. I knew a few people that went to school and took courses and got good marks.....but couldn't find work! They still had to fight for personal enterprise (which school doesn't promote), AND they were good, but maybe didn't have the right connections.

Therefore, I still conclude that being a fast talking, quick thinking carney goes much further in the end, and that it's "who you know and who you blow". Look at Bush--you think THAT guy needed to be educated to gain control of the country, just to fuck it up?

Here's the problem with the education illusion--I compare this alot to the fears about whether or not there will be a retirement fund or pension for the vast majority of people, when most of the boomers (many of whom are already of retirement age) have already aged. As we know, it costs alot of money for old age care, preparing wills and funerals and stuff like that. In other words, the whole "get an education" thing is largely, I find, a ruse, because why on Earth would the big politicos and big suits want you to get educated and think you're above flipping burgers?

This is already happening in Alberta, where many service jobs cannot be filled. Many late night places can't find people to work, because they're going to the oil fields or anywhere else (construction boom) that pays more. In that sense, the government and the economy is finding out what happens when you educate people, or give them the option of working in the oil fields to get rich quickly--no one wants to do the "shitty" jobs anymore, and the pay is reflected accordingly.

I'm even seeing it here, where many service jobs have signs "now hiring!". Back in 1995 when I was a teenage and looking for a first job and willing to put in alot of sweat and effort, those jobs weren't available. I had to apply at tons to even find any place that was hiring, because the positions were already filled. Forget the places in the paper; they had tons of people applying there.

In my estimation, the big companies missed the service industry boom (in which there was time for uneducated masses to have to work simple jobs), and now everyone's educated, but no one wants to do the service jobs anymore! And can you blame them? They don't get paid shit and handle tons of stress from people that are irate that some uneducated "peon" just screwed up their Big Mac order.

THAT is what I call a rhetorical blunder.

Edit: and also, if you notice, you cannot claim tuition on bankrupcies (something that has gone unnoticed). Wonder how that happened? It's because that growth illusion probably realized that it didn't want to fund your kids' college fund, just for them to find out that maybe they didn't have the enterprising or managerial skills to convey whatever talents that they had....

....to actual $$$.

The gov't has known about this growth illusion for a long time now. There's no proof that you'll transcend your debts to be schooled in college, there's no guarantee that straight A's will get you hired if you don't have the overall mojo and panache that people are looking for in those industries or fields. If you think even a graduation degree from grade 12 means a hill of beans as opposed to your ability to relate to people on a one on one basis, i've got some prime real estate in Florida that's for sale.

John has it the right way--do it with what you can afford man, I totally back you on that. There's no guarantees of any careers or financial stability, especially in this economy. Do what you can do, be what you can be and aspire to more, but don't live out of your range....that's what's created this whole 700 billion dollar bailout mess in the first place.
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: YZ on September 26, 2008, 09:17:35 pm
RPhilbeck wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 18:43

John,

That is pathetic.

Robert


That was elitist.



And rude.
And uncalled for.
And incorrect, too.
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: John Ivan on September 26, 2008, 09:24:40 pm
RPhilbeck wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 19:33

You have never been to college.  How would you know anything about it?  Well, you wouldn't, like most other things you talk about. I'm sorry sir, but you don't have the background to opine on much of anything. School is important.  Especially higher education.  Please stop suggesting it isn't.

Furthermore, in the past you've made no bones about your willingness to lie, cheat and steal for whatever reason you see fit.  Don't make me dig up that old post.  Here you are again talking about stealing stuff.  


Go dig it up. I have not ever stolen anything.

I do not cheat.

I am no a liar.

What is my background? Tell me please. All you know, is that I didn't attend a college. What have I done at a College, "Phil Bob"?..

Look, ya dumb ass, just stop. You don't know the first fucking thing about me..

[edited by moderator]
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: Larrchild on September 26, 2008, 09:35:07 pm
I used to have to get ad-hominem.

But I can get em on issues n facts now.

Makes me look smarter, too.
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: Devin Knutson on September 26, 2008, 10:05:44 pm
Larrchild wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 18:35

I used to have to get ad-hominem.

But I can get em on issues n facts now.

Makes me look smarter, too.



And don't forget the mighty power of the Magical Strawman!
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: John Ivan on September 26, 2008, 10:19:45 pm
By the way, my recommendation that one should steal the text books was a joke.. Buy them cheap instead.

I have never stolen a text book. I have purchased many many text books on various subjects used though, and the information in them was pretty good in some cases. In others, the information was, well, strange..

Ivan....................
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: Larrchild on September 26, 2008, 10:24:29 pm
Quote:

And don't forget the mighty power of the Magical Strawman!



Some people would agree.

Cause Fox never did give nuthin to the Strawman, that he didn't already have.
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: rphilbeck on September 27, 2008, 12:06:35 am
John Ivan wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 21:24

RPhilbeck wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 19:33

You have never been to college.  How would you know anything about it?  Well, you wouldn't, like most other things you talk about. I'm sorry sir, but you don't have the background to opine on much of anything. School is important.  Especially higher education.  Please stop suggesting it isn't.

Furthermore, in the past you've made no bones about your willingness to lie, cheat and steal for whatever reason you see fit.  Don't make me dig up that old post.  Here you are again talking about stealing stuff.  


Go dig it up. I have not ever stolen anything.

I do not cheat.

I am no a liar.

What is my background? Tell me please. All you know, is that I didn't attend a college. What have I done at a College, "Phil Bob"?..

Look, ya dumb ass, just stop. You don't know the first fucking thing about me..

I'm going to tell you this once. So make damn sure you are paying attention..

[edited by moderator]





You're resorting to threats of violence.  

Here is the link to the thread you asked for.  

  http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/18279/0/0/ 820/

John Ivan wrote:
Quote:

 I don't care how the right wing pigs are defeated in this world. Crime, hate, lies, personal attacks, invasion of privacy, it's all fine with me as long as in the end, the current "thinking" is dead.

Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: John Ivan on September 27, 2008, 12:37:31 am
"Thankfully, however, I've personally learned my lesson when it comes to this kind shit. I don't care how the right wing pigs are defeated in this world. Crime, hate, lies, personal attacks, invasion of privacy, it's all fine with me as long as in the end, the current "thinking" is dead.

I view many of these folks as a real enemy. As I consider all the lives being lost for no good reason, it occurs to me that ALL is fair game. I believe the Democratic party is much to wimpy. It should be a brutal ugly political war now.

So if this Moore cat is partly full of shit but he turns a few people away from these ass wipes on the right, FINE.

I see it as WAR. actual WAR. sooner the better."

Ivan..........................


This is the whole quote and if I were an American politician, I would be ruining the lives of every Republican I could..

This seems to be the only path in Washington ..The people you say you support are criminals.. Real ones. People who commit crimes against me every day.. They commit the same crimes against you but you either don't care, or are just plain old stupid..

Now, about this supposed threat.. I never threatened you. You Pussy.. You said that I'm a liar and a cheat.. I am not. You don't know me and you would have no way of knowing whether I was a liar.

I absolutely believe that the right wing in this country must be defeated if we are to survive as a nation. Political warfare is what it is for now..

I did not threaten you..

As I stated in my PM to you, I really think you are a horrible horrible person. Really I do. I like nothing about you at all and wish you lived somewhere other than my country.. Based on what you have written, I believe you to be Bad People. We need less of you in this world..

Having said that, as I told you in my PM to you, I have not ever engaged in any violent act against a person in my adult life. I have no intention of doing so now or anytime in the future. If you ever try to tell people that I am willing to cheat and lie to get what I want, you will hear from my Lawyer.

You suck..Have an incredibly challenging bad BAD day..

Ivan................
Title: Re: A Bailout We Don't Need
Post by: bblackwood on September 27, 2008, 08:11:44 am
We let people have some extra rope down here, but personal threats will not be tolerated.

Sadly, this one is done. Don't make me lock another thread down here due to this or some folks will find themselves without access to the Saloon.