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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => j. hall => Topic started by: j.hall on July 10, 2008, 09:51:41 am

Title: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 10, 2008, 09:51:41 am
chat it up.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Huds on July 10, 2008, 01:26:47 pm
OK... I'll start things off here.  I found that I struggled with the lead vox on this one.  Started out playing with compression, but found that trying to wrangle things in that way alone resulted in too many "thpitty" artifacts.  Cut back on the comp quite a bit, and tried to do more automation, but it was just taking too much time to get things the way I wanted.  Ended up going with 5:1 fast attack and release, and tried to keep GR in the 6-8 range followed by the automation

Huds
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: rankus on July 10, 2008, 01:37:45 pm
Agreed.  The vocals and the bass were most challenging for me as well.  I ended up re-amping the bass to add some fizz and tone adjustment.  Due to shortage of time (5 hrs) I did the best compression I could on the vox and adjusted gain handles on a few clips... Wish I could have done an automated mix on this one...

Really well arranged and played song I must say.  A real pleasure to mix!

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Huds on July 10, 2008, 01:43:17 pm
Forgot to add... that 6-8db GR is on the hot parts.... Wink
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: osumosan on July 10, 2008, 01:54:43 pm
Had to listen to what was up up to now. Things getting crazy around here. I wish I could have touched up with some automation as well:

ATOR
I Wish my electric guitars sounded like that! Your A&R guy is going to ride you about the lead vox. BG vox are even more buried. Good ending.

Antman
Your mix is static dynamically. The sounds are a bit raw and I think this song needs polish. I can feel the kick transients, but my ear is missing them.

Chris Ilett
Good choice on the intro although I would have brought over the hi hat snap to introduce the drums (that's just me). Balances are strange among the guitars. Missing the low/low mids. The space you made with verb is empty sounding. The third verse treatment is just to off-beat for me and the verb there, too is a bit retro. I just don't understand some of the choices and don't think they gel together.

Jason Thompson
Whoa! Fix that vox! Did you accidentally nudge the vox stem or sumpthin' You kept the darkness of the tracks well and made it work.

Careful Collapse
A little hot between 3k and 5k. Listening to this, I kind of wish I had dropped the bottom snare track, too. Good guitars, too, except for the overall upper mids. Good bottom, although you could have emphasized even lower.

sstillwell
I would roll off some top of the verb and work on the sibilance some. The drum treatment makes it too machine-like for my taste. Maybe overcompressed on that buss.

Huds
Need more power in the vox. The acoustic guitar room sound disappears when the guitar drops out. I'd like to hear it continue somewhere in the general mix. Maybe a touch in the vox? It's pretty dry over all other than when that kicks in. The low needs some attention.

Podgomy
Ah, the intimate mix. Well done blend of dry and wet. The low end is maybe a little out of control (I don't have the best monitoring to say for sure), but the sibilances are hot too.

YZ
Where's the beef i.e.: lowend? The tracks are left a little raw. The drums need to drive the track more.



Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Huds on July 10, 2008, 02:12:47 pm
Osumosan - thanks for the feedback.  Just curious - do you monitor with a sub? When I listen to your mix with my sub in sounds like there's way too much "thump"... of course it could be my environment - I am in a small room that could use a bit more treatment... Will be very interested to hear what some of the guys that have big/tuned CR's hear too...
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 10, 2008, 02:15:30 pm
Ok...

I'm listening to a few of the submissions while I write this.

Teleric, jdier: I had problems downloading your files.

Well, about my mix:

As I heard the raw files, I decided to go 'the 1980s way', which in my case was the time I did some Indie stuff in a small studio with a Sound Techniques 18-input desk (heavily modded: 4 freq choices in the mid EQ!), one Ursa Major Space Station reverb/fx, two LA3-As, two LA4s, a MXR flanger and a plate.

Recording duties were the responsibility of 'Princess' (the MM1100 16-track with the vacuum-tube locator) and a few AG440s 1/4" with souped-up ferrite heads.

Not being a DAW guy (my last 15 years or so in recording were spent on Jazz and MPB direct to 2-track or pure analog MT) this was going to be kind of a new thing to me, working at home with 'old unreliable' (my Northwood PC that has a tendency to gush unexpectedly).

So I fired up my 3-year old DAW software and my Sonitus:FX plugs, got my headphones on and went nuts.

There are a couple of very lame edits on my version, and I hope the folks here won't laugh too hard at my feeble attempt to do a half-decent mix.

I had a lot of fun and if time allows I intend to be a frequent participant on future IMPs.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: ATOR on July 10, 2008, 02:24:05 pm
The lead vox gave me a hard time too. I couldn't get it to glue with the rest. If I made it big or loud it came loose from the mix. I found it hard to pinpoint why let alone fix it. I agree with Osumosan that it's volume is too low.

Most of the excitement of this track was in the drums and guitars so I put them in the front seats.

I'm painting my studio walls so I've removed my acoustic absorbers. Mixing in a untreated concrete wall room is a nightmare, there's no way to tell where the low(mid) end is. I had forgotten how much difference room treatment makes.
Now I'm really looking forward to having new absorbers and basstraps in a month or so.

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 10, 2008, 02:41:50 pm
Osumosan,

Thanks for the feedback!

I'll take some time to listen to everybody´s mixes later today to post better balanced comments, in the meantime I have to agree with most of Osumasan's comments, including the ones about my own mix.

Uh...  I guess I'll end up spending more time listening to other's mixes than I did to mix mine...  Wink

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 10, 2008, 02:42:58 pm
Really enjoyed this one. Great song.

ATOR - weird acoustic in the beginning - not a fan. The first bridge to the chorus, the guitar in the left channel comes in pretty loud. Great snare sound though, and everything else seems well balanced. Really powerful chorus. Very stereo!! Something seems to go momentarily wrong on the 'Do Yas' after the solo, but mends itself pretty quickly again.
Love the end.

Antman - wet mix with vocals dry as a bone. Another very stereo mix, and guitars overpower things a bit sometimes, like they're climbing on top of each other to get heard instead of supporting the song. That'll be the headphones no doubt. Think most things actually sound really good though. They just don't seem to tie in to make the song.

Me - Decided to 'mix it up' a bit. 80's Kick drum reverb, long intro and rotary effects on the outro. If this were a paid gig, I'd do that as a seperate version to see if the band liked any ideas. Worth a chance in my opinion, so I thought why not. Basic mix was ok

Jason Thompson - think you need to grab all those vocal tracks and shunt them a bit to be in time with the song.

Careful collapse - good strong acoustic and drums. Nice vocal sound - you brought out some of the slightly hoarse tones in the singers softer singing voice. Multiband compressor..?  Did you edit out a chorus? Not a fan of the doo ya's wide panned, and whatever else you did to them sounded a bit weedy.

SStillwell - Whats going on with that acoustic? Drums sound really over compressed. Everything sounds really harsh. Nice mix on the harmonies though.

Huds - space age acoustic for you too?  Maybe should have balanced the lead vocal a bit more. Too quiet in the quiet bits, too loud in the loud bits.

Teleric - Drums got lost behind the guitars which were at times lost behind the vocals. Was the kick drum leaning quite heavily to one side?

YZ - Another one who seems to bury everything under the guitars when it gets loud. That lead guitar at the end sounds so out of place.

Osumosan - Did you put any bass on that bass? I like how you get the lead guitar near the beginning to sound like it's been put through a cheap zoom pedal. Really fits the style of the song. Sounds like a wasp. In fact you've got at least one of the guitars sounding waspy all the way through. Nice doo ya's at the end. I like the way you fade the music out a bit, and then the vocals. Not sure how you get that effect.



More later
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Devin Knutson on July 10, 2008, 02:49:33 pm
I had trouble with the (edit: lead vocal compression) too.  There are a couple spots where it digs in too much on mine, but I didn't have time to get back and fix it.

Also, it took me over an hour to realize that what was really bugging me about the bass was that it was a good 45 cents sharp.  Once I dropped that, it clicked much better for me.

Well done tracks all around.  I had fun, and am looking forward to hearing everyone else's.

EDIT:  I just checked, and I dropped the bass 36 cents, not 45.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 10, 2008, 03:22:33 pm
Guys, that vocal timing thing was an accident. After listening to the other submissions, I realized it.

That being said, I NEVER thought it sounded out of place. In fact, from a producer's POV, I would MUCH rather have heard that timing than what was really there. I moved something over to the right at the first and just took it for granted that that's the way it was supposed to be. I stand by it whole-heartedly from a producer standpoint. It is WAY more interesting that way, if you can get out of the conventional (I've heard it a thousand times my way) mode.

From an mix engineer's prospective... I'm embarrassed. I would expect pissed clients and a quick recall!


All of THAT being said...

I like compression on vocals. Period. Most of my favorite records (yes, even old ones) have heavily compressed vox. I like the sound.

If I had more time, I would have honed in on the de-essing a little more. There was a lot of shit around 9-10k in that vocal. I did a lot of automation before it hit the compressor. Not a very good mic technique from the vocalist IMO.

The second thing... the bass guitar. I don't know how many takes that was, but somebody needed to throw that guy a tuning fork. It sounded nice when I autotuned it... WAY too many artifacts, so I ditched it.

Very cool overhead sound. Although the drummer was killing the cymbals. Other than that it would have been perfect for me. Good tuning, especially on the snare.

I didn't leave my mix dark, so much as flat. Don't get me wrong it IS dark, but when I listened on my iphone, desktop speakers, truck, monitors, etc... it sounded good all around. If you adjust the treble and bass on the stereo it doesn't go wacky, so I think it could easily be fine tuned.

Like the little "Do Ya" hook, so I brought back for the fade. I didn't like how it just dropped off at the end.

Cool song.  
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 10, 2008, 06:15:02 pm
Jason - it worked at times, for sure. That mistake would have made me call the singer in again to make some adjustments.

The chorus didn't work. I guess if you listen to anything enough, you get used to it.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 10, 2008, 06:21:44 pm
That's funny man. The chorus (that way) has been going through my head all day.

You are so right about getting used to it, though.

For me, it sounds VERY strange to hear the rest of the mixes' vox that way!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Greg Thompson on July 10, 2008, 07:13:19 pm
Not that my mix is the be all end all, or even all that great, but I didn't feel like I ran into problems with the lead vocal. Why?  Because I immediately sliced up the lead voc track and made a verse track and a pre chorus line track and a chorus track. Each one has its own unique eq/comp/fx treatment.
No way (for me) that 1 eq or 1 comp was going to work on a vocal that dynamic in volume and tone.

-Greg
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: loudsongsinc on July 11, 2008, 12:36:31 am
What he said. . .
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Gabriel F on July 11, 2008, 01:04:46 am
I had a last minute work so i could not get time to finish my mix. i have to finish automation and balance the vocal to make it really in your face but not isolated from the rest of the track. i wont upload my mix because i follow the rules.
But i will review your mixes and check them against mine.
Pretty good song, it remind me nick cave in a good way.

Gabriel Fonts.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: PaulyD on July 11, 2008, 06:33:43 am
Who are the band and the engineer on this?

I didn't submit an entry, but I enjoyed mixing it. I really like the song. Overall good engineering, too.

Paul
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: ATOR on July 11, 2008, 07:30:47 am
These are some really quick and dirty comments on the mixes:

Antman
Separation an definition could use more work. Balance is ok.

Carefulcolapse
Bass sounds like it's holding back. Lead vocal lacks ambience/space. Guitar on the left sounds as if the speaker is broken. Drums are dull compared to the guitars and vocal.

Chrissilett
Big verb on vox. Drums are low and hi heavy and lack body. Guitars are too soft for my taste. Lacks beef. If you put the bg vox this loud they need some tuning.

DBallenger
Not digging the shifted timings and arrangement edits. Balance is off.

DevinK
Cool intro. Drum ambience is very obvious and panned unnatural. The clean repeated guitar 'sample' doesn't work esp the sound of it, too poky. You lost me because the mix choices you made don't make it sound as if I have a real band in front of me.

ElDuderino
Sounds good.

GrantRichard
Good beefy drums. Good balance, I'd like more guitar.

GT
Acoustic guitar tone sounds shortened. Reamped lead guitar sounds awful. Drums are good. Ending is a mess.

Huds
Mix lacks power. Balance is good.

Jason Thompson
Shifted lead vox. Bass is low heavy but lacks presence. Very dull.

JDier
Drums pack punch but lack body and are a bit harsh. Good guitars except the right chorus lead one.

JNickel
Acoustic sounds as if the strings have magically aged ten years. Snaredrum could use more snaresound (bottom). More guitars in chorus please.

Loudsongsinc
Kick &Snare drums in intro sound roomless. Don't like the eq on the kick. Chorus guitars lack body. Balance is good.

Maxim
Cool intro. Sounds good. I'd like more presence in the dist guitars. The space guitar at the end doesn't do it for me, rather use the room to beef up the real guitars.

MDifazio
Yuk, as if I need to pop my ears. This mix sucks hard, sorry man.

MGA
Harsh and lacking body esp the snare.

MGT
Drums sound very compressed and sound small because of that. The mids and highs hurt my ears.

MSE
Balance is good. Sounds could use some more eq work.

Osumosan
Bassguitar is all stringsound and no bass, this takes up much space in the mix. Reamped guitar sound bad. Drums are good.

Podgorny
Ambience of the drums (the lack of) is weird. Then there's the clean git that drowns in reverb. Balance is good. Sounds are good. I'd like a natural space.

Rankus
Very dry. Could use some reverb to glue it all together. Apart from that I like this one.

Slash5969
Out of control kick with loads of artifacts. The compressor abuse (in a bad way) ruins it for me.

Spoon
Lacks a binding ambience esp the snare sound.  Vocal sounds far away. Could use more body and tamed hi-mids.

Stillwell
The reverb on the kick muddies the low end. Too much compression, sounds get small. More guitar in the chorus please.

Teleric
Drums lack ambience or maybe I need some adjusting after Stillwells megaverb. Good sounds and balance.

YZ
Nice full leadvox, this is the only vox of all mixes I really liked. Drums are a bit thin in comparison. Guitar solo is too loud. Good mix.


Take care Cool
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 11, 2008, 07:34:06 am
ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 06:30

These are some really quick and dirty comments on the mixes:

GrantRichard
Good beefy drums. Good balance, I'd like more guitar.




Hey,
Thanks!  I'm glad somebody liked my supersized drums. Smile  Where would have preferred more guitar?  Chorus, verse, solo?  All of the above?

Thanks for the comments!

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MGA on July 11, 2008, 07:43:16 am
Since I messed up big time on the last IMP, and therefore didn't comment here are some reviews (maybe I'm gonna do the rest that I missed too later on), tried something new and blind listend. As always it's just my opinion.

Chrisilett
Vocals are a tad too wet (for my taste) ... it's okay in the chorus later in the song, though a bit too much in the intro
Nice snare
Maybe a tad more stereo spread
The kick in that part right after the quite "doo ya"s is a bit too heavy imo, it almost hurts, but I guess that was your intention, either way it's nice'n'hard but just doesn't fit right IMO
But overall a decent mix with good balance

Maxim
Too bassy, thus it sounds a bit muddy to my ears
Except for that pretty solid

Antman
Good mix

Carefulcollapse
Much compression, especially snare
Missing the dynamics
Maybe Cymbals a tad too loud
Sibiliance of bkg vox ("doo ya") too loud

DevinK
Where did you get that organ from in the intro?
The percussivness of the lick guitar is nice but at the edge of being too much
Overall nice mix, but where did you get the those organ sounds from?

Grant Richard
That drums rip ... which isn't Particularly good in this song IMO
The "duh ya"s sound very lofi
So once the guitars kicked in an the dominant drums got less dominant it was a good mix

Huds
Acoustic too loud IMO
Good mix

MGA
Cymbals too loud
Snare too loud, nice crack though
(hehe I got the feeling this is my mix ... anyway let's go on)
Well since it's my mix it is of course perfect ... not

MGT
Kick too loud/strong/in-your-face
Do I hear some pumping around the middle of the song (where it get's LOUD)?

Patrikt
Nice warm acoustic
The kick is seriously not good, it's supposed to have 0 (zero) stereo spread and be centered while this is all over the place
OHs too loud

Podgorny
Drums muffled, no sparkle in the snare
Whats that chiwawa barking kind'a sound in the left channel (at around 1:02 in the song)

[Okay just some more until my ears start to bleed]

ATOR
The drums hit hard, like sad before might not suit the song well IMO
Muffled too

Osumosan
Nice warm verb on the drums, though I like my drums more direct
Vox in the intro could be a bit dryer
Lick guitar could be a louder
Less reverb on the lick guitar

Slash
Too much lowend
Drums got no stereo spread
The whole thing seems very thightly compressed
The vocal effect track is too loud, IMO it should be more subtle

Stillwell (btw thx for pointing my to this project)
Good hard kick, maybe a tad too much
Too much reverb on the vocals
Overall too much reverb, sounds like recorded in a chapel
Good balance overall though

Jason Thompson
Lofi sound
Vocals are burried

JNickel
Snares lacking highend
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: ATOR on July 11, 2008, 07:46:18 am
grant richard wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 13:34

ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 06:30

These are some really quick and dirty comments on the mixes:

GrantRichard
Good beefy drums. Good balance, I'd like more guitar.




Hey,
Thanks!  I'm glad somebody liked my supersized drums. Smile  Where would have preferred more guitar?  Chorus, verse, solo?  All of the above?

Thanks for the comments!



I'd like to get the feeling that the guitars in the chorus are bigger.
You could simply turn 'em up in the chorus or automate levels so that when I get to the chorus there's a big guitar level contrast with what is before so I know I'm at the chorus.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 11, 2008, 08:23:15 am
MGAudio wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 06:43

Since I messed up big time on the last IMP, and therefore didn't comment here are some reviews (maybe I'm gonna do the rest that I missed too later on), tried something new and blind listend. As always it's just my opinion.

Grant Richard
That drums rip ... which isn't Particularly good in this song IMO
The "duh ya"s sound very lofi
So once the guitars kicked in an the dominant drums got less dominant it was a good mix




Thanks for the comments!  Good observation on the "doo-ya's".  Lofi is what I intended.

I'm of the opinion that since this song doesn't have a whole lot going for it that something needed to slam.  I opted for drums and vocals.  IMO, the guitars are kind of uninteresting (except for the solo), so I wanted something else to make the song more interesting.  

I plan to post comments on this IMP's mixes soon, as I have not participated as of late.  
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 11, 2008, 08:24:28 am
ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 06:46

grant richard wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 13:34

ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 06:30

These are some really quick and dirty comments on the mixes:

GrantRichard
Good beefy drums. Good balance, I'd like more guitar.




Hey,
Thanks!  I'm glad somebody liked my supersized drums. Smile  Where would have preferred more guitar?  Chorus, verse, solo?  All of the above?

Thanks for the comments!



I'd like to get the feeling that the guitars in the chorus are bigger.
You could simply turn 'em up in the chorus or automate levels so that when I get to the chorus there's a big guitar level contrast with what is before so I know I'm at the chorus.


OK, I see your point and agree that the chorus could lift harder.  Thanks again for the comments!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 11, 2008, 10:45:09 am
ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 06:30


Jason Thompson
Shifted lead vox. Bass is low heavy but lacks presence. Very dull.



Yup. Shifted lead vox.  Laughing I still like it.  Rolling Eyes

Yes, the bass was a problem to me. I killed it with the LA4. I noticed more and more later, but hey... I had no time to fix anything. It was a first time Johnny, then out the door.

Thanks for the listen.


MGAudio wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 06:43


Jason Thompson
Lofi sound
Vocals are burried



Brother. I think you MAY have some monitoring issues. I mean, there were a number of times when you commented on drums being "muffled" that I didn't understand. A couple "a little too much" on some high freq or mid where I thought it was outrageous.

I totally agree with the lo-fi sound. That's what I thought the track wanted. I found that just turning up the trebble on the stereo really opened it up without anything really standing out (except the 9-10k spit on the vocal from my affinity of overly compressed vox... but that's another story). I try to mix even. I'm no ME and I don't trust my ears or equipment for that type of fine tuning. My school of thought is if you make it sound perfect and badass in your room... unless it's perfect... it will be a nightmare for the ME. I just use the force and be the ball... na na na na na. I still am getting to know the new room too.

Thank you for the comments and taking your time out to listen.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: spoon on July 11, 2008, 11:07:41 am
PaulyD wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 05:33

Who are the band and the engineer on this?

I didn't submit an entry, but I enjoyed mixing it. I really like the song. Overall good engineering, too.

Paul


Overall engineering was not bad, but not good.  There were too many clipped tracks.  That should never happen these days.

Regards,
David
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 11, 2008, 11:13:04 am
2nd.

Although, I would have to say that it was a bit the performances as well.

Heavy on the crashes, vocal mic technique, tuning on the bass, etc.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: spoon on July 11, 2008, 12:10:15 pm
J-Texas wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 10:13

2nd.

Although, I would have to say that it was a bit the performances as well.

Heavy on the crashes, vocal mic technique, tuning on the bass, etc.


I hear ya.

But isnt that the engineer's job....to have the gain set for such things.  Especially in a studio situation where the song was done at least twice and a gain range can be determined.


Cheers,
David
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 11, 2008, 12:17:15 pm
spoon wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 11:10

J-Texas wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 10:13

2nd.

Although, I would have to say that it was a bit the performances as well.

Heavy on the crashes, vocal mic technique, tuning on the bass, etc.


I hear ya.

But isnt that the engineer's job....to have the gain set for such things.  Especially in a studio situation where the song was done at least twice and a gain range can be determined.


Cheers,
David


It was in addition to what you said.  Smile
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: spoon on July 11, 2008, 01:05:52 pm
BTW, did you get new monitors, or did you mix this in a different space than you normally use?


J-Texas wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 11:17

spoon wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 11:10

J-Texas wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 10:13

2nd.

Although, I would have to say that it was a bit the performances as well.

Heavy on the crashes, vocal mic technique, tuning on the bass, etc.


I hear ya.

But isnt that the engineer's job....to have the gain set for such things.  Especially in a studio situation where the song was done at least twice and a gain range can be determined.


Cheers,
David


It was in addition to what you said.  Smile

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MGA on July 11, 2008, 01:15:30 pm
J-Texas wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 09:45


Brother. I think you MAY have some monitoring issues. I mean, there were a number of times when you commented on drums being "muffled" that I didn't understand. A couple "a little too much" on some high freq or mid where I thought it was outrageous.



Well here is what I ... I download the mp3, load them up in my DAW (all in sequence), hit play and then I just type down what _I_ _think_ _might_ be wrong, which isn't easy for me, because when I'm mixing and I think something is lacking highend, or lowend or whatever, I just start EQing it accordingly and sometimes find out that that wasn't what's wrong and the problem I was after was something else. Plus it is kind of hard to stay objective when you've already listened to 5 or more 4 minute pieces which are all the SAME song. Also what makes it even harder is the fact that the mixes haven't the same loudness, etc... oh and the fact that I'm a just hobbyist in an untreated room.
With muffled drums I meant that the whole thing wasn't as open. Like ... well imagen sitting in front of a drum kit and playing/listening to it. It is open, loud and has this sound ... don't know how describe, so e.g. on Podgorny's mix it was kind of like the kick fighting over the bass or something .. it might be a taste/preference thing though. I thought muffled was fitting (like muffled as in "not clearly understandable"). But don't get me wrong the drums are fine (all of the mixes, with some exceptions are pretty good, that's what makes it also even tougher to point out "mistakes") I just wished that the drums had more space of their own, so they could breath more and become more open.
So take my comments as what they are, comments from an hobbyist.

EDIT:
Quote:


MGA
Harsh and lacking body esp the snare.


Ahh, now I think what I mean with muffled, too much body Razz

Anyway ATOR you're right about the harsh (too much highend right?), I didn't saw the new IMP until yesterday night, when I was about to go to bed. But I wanted to paricipate so to meet the deadline I had to mix it late at night (actually after mightnight even) so I had to monitor really quite, that made my lust for high frequencies even bigger.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Devin Knutson on July 11, 2008, 01:18:19 pm
ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 04:30

DevinK
Cool intro. Drum ambience is very obvious and panned unnatural. The clean repeated guitar 'sample' doesn't work esp the sound of it, too poky. You lost me because the mix choices you made don't make it sound as if I have a real band in front of me.



Hmm...  interesting.  I added some room to the kick.  Listening again, I see that it does drift to one side a bit.  Ah well, it is what it is.  Smile


MGAudio wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 04:43

DevinK
Where did you get that organ from in the intro?
The percussivness of the lick guitar is nice but at the edge of being too much
Overall nice mix, but where did you get the those organ sounds from?



No organ.  It's the one guitar note that I chopped out of the riffs part for the intro, sent out through a digitech GSP-2101 guitar processor on the "String Swell" preset.

I think you're right...  the color guitar sound is a bit much.  That's one of the things that I was going to change if I had the time.  Which I didn't.  Oh well.

Thanks!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MGA on July 11, 2008, 01:30:06 pm
Devin Knutson wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 12:18


No organ.  It's the one guitar note that I chopped out of the riffs part for the intro, sent out through a digitech GSP-2101 guitar processor on the "String Swell" preset.




Nice, sounded awesome btw.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: loudsongsinc on July 11, 2008, 01:36:32 pm
ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 06:30


Loudsongsinc
Kick &Snare drums in intro sound roomless. Don't like the eq on the kick. Chorus guitars lack body. Balance is good.





Thanks for the comments.

I had some verb on the drums throughout, it was just backed off a little at the beginning cause I thought it was too much.

I started with more of a rock kick and changed it toward the classic rock/country sound. . . judgement call?  What fits better?

I do wish the chorus guitars were "bigger."  I had a tapey sounding multitap delay set up for the vox that I should have tried on the guitars.  That would have helped the thickness.  I also notched out some mid to give the vox room to breathe.  

Should I have left the mid in (2.5-3k)?  Left in more low mid (200-400Hz)?

Scott
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: rankus on July 11, 2008, 01:43:51 pm
ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 04:30


Rankus
Very dry. Could use some reverb to glue it all together. Apart from that I like this one.



Thanks for taking the time to comment Pieter. I appreciate that.

For some reason I am really not digging reverb these days.  It reminds me too much of the 60's  70's  80's ... And lately I'm doing lots of pop/punk/indie/emo stuff that calls for more in your face mixing... I'm really digging the dry, what can I say!  To me the mixes with more reverb than mine sound "old fashioned"  

 
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Patrik T on July 11, 2008, 02:03:01 pm
Maxim:
Pina Colada-intro, nice. Overall good tone. No particular lift in the chorus.
The guitar lick could go away here and there, it's offsetting things.
Bass might be too sloppy still.

Antman:
Good overall tone. OK chorus lift. The lick is not together with the rest.
The sound of the gutar solo over the vox in the end kind of indicates how
much a wanted arrangement can become an overfilled mix.

Carefulcollapse:
Good drive. Thank you for dry vocals. Good chorus lift. Bass, kick and snare
blends nicely. The guitars are quite small in contast to that blend but you
surely left room on the sides for them.


Chrisilett:
The bass is sloppily undefined in the intro. Kick and bass might have too much
low when they contain lot of other useful frequencies. Too much of the undermic
from the snare for my tastes. The vox are kind of floating in their reverb all
over the rest and the contrast makes the instruments feel pretty narrowed.
Interesting silent part, whispering part. Dunno about the reverbed kick there.

DevinK:
It feels like you've spent more time on tricks and adds than listening to how
the tracked instruments actually sound. The singer is sometimes so disattached from
the guitars that it actually sound like he's singing in a karaoke bar to background
music. I think this band can live without synthesizer pads...

Grant Richard:
Everything is quite nicely gathered. The sound of the snare makes the chorus sounds
trashier than it have to, it affects the guitars tone. Actually it sounds like the
kick and the snare belongs to one kit and the OH's to a completely other kit.

Huds:
Whatever effect there is on the acoustic guitar, it doesn't make it sound very good.
Too much short delays. The drum kit sits together good. The guitars doesn't blossom
much in the choruses. They feel so small.

MGA:
The mix pumps...The snare sound is very cardboard. Less of the undermic pls. Things
sound like being played from the myspace player.

MGT:
Lovely tone on the vox. Thank you for a kick that sounds like a kick. Transients are
oh so important for the drive. The lift in the chorus works, but the guitars are
pretty small. At the solo part starting 02:35 the guitars are slightly unbearable.
Again it shows what too much can cause; the final chorus sounds like splinters of
something demolished. Everyhing wants to be there but there ain't room for anyhting
sounding really good. Or cool.

Podgorny:
I can't understand why so many go so much for sounds that are under the snare when
most normal scenarios where one listen to drums is when one have the ears situated
over the kit or in front/back of it. So maybe a little less of the "under"-thing.
Apart from that things are good. Bass is too boomy at spots. The chors lift works
pretty well.

ATOR:
I think the bass is still too sloppy. It's pretty much the only disturbing thing in
the first part. Ok lift at the chorus.

Elduderino:
Good gathering of things but the general sound is somewhat boringly dry cardboardish.
Near-good lift at the chorus. More beef.

Osumosan:
Kick, bass and vox goes well together. But where are the guitars in the big picture?
They sound like 10 watt amps...

Slash5969:
Internal levels of things are so disconnected from each other. Too much compression.

Spoon:
The under-mic again...must be something personal. More guitars at the choruses.

Sstillwell:
The guitars could and probably should be more present. No specific lift-off. The reverb
on the vox does not fit the rest. Like two separated things. Listen.

Teleric:
Everything is pretty well gathred here. Thanks for no "audible" effects. More guitar beef
would be nice in the choruses.

YZ:
Bass is too sloppy. The playing is far from the best but can be fixed somewhat. Tone of
guitars and vox are not anywhere similar. The difference makes things sound more like a
mix than a song...

Jason Thompson:
Too heavy lows in the kick. The overall tone is gathered good but vox might be slightly
off regarding toghetherness with the rest (tone, not the obvious shift in time).

JNickel:
Ok gathereness. Listen to the relationship between the centred electric guitars and the
snare. If they sound like they can fit inside of the snare maybe something should be done.
Things are slightly heavy on the bottom.

Rankus:
Sounds like parts in progress of being mixed. I get absolutely no big picture of the song
here. The guitar lick at...01:40 somewhere...is so off with the rest. There is no particular drive anywhere. Scare me!


Thanks for being a part of this!
Patrik
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: jdier on July 11, 2008, 02:48:01 pm
Anyone know if J is going to post a mix?  
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: spoon on July 11, 2008, 03:35:33 pm
Hey all,
thanks to those who took the time to review the submissions.

To those who didnt, may your arms swell up and fall off...

Some notes:
I did not like the main rythmn guitars tone or distorion characteristics.
I did not like the bass players consistency.

So those attributes will pretty much be reflected in my reviews to some degree.

I randomized them and reviewed blind including my own which, (suprise) I liked alot...but I had some corrections to myself too.

Kind regards,
David

Antman - Good overall mix.  A touch muddy (though some willl call this warmth) for me and the chorus BG vocals are a tad low at times.

ATOR - Good Mix.  Nice drums, snare in particular. Nice intimate verse vocals. Nice ending.

Chris Ilett- Fun intro.  The fun intro make the chorus sound small when the rest of the intruments arrive.  It sets up the anticipation for fortissimo, but does not deliver.  Nice vocal forward mix but the guitars are non-existant.  Fun middle break down, but does it work with this style?  Same with the outro.

DBallenger - Nice warm bass, but the drums are in the next room. Interesting vocal placement.  Vocals a touch low, most notably during the chorus.

DevinK - Nice keyboard touch in the intro (I refer to the pad. Are we able to add parts?).  I did the drum treatment.  Gives it a cool live feel.  The end-of-chorus reverb is fun (needs to tail off less abruptly).  Good overall mix.  (Love that synth pad...nice delicate touch.)  Fun outro.

El Duderino - Tight, crisp drums (that dissappear abit when the other instruments come in).  Oh, mean guitar in the first verse.  Guitar forward, bass back mix with the vocals just abit behind those guitars. Nice ending.

Grant Richard - Aggressive snare treatment...nice. Sample or effect?  Nice vocals. Nice mix overall.

Greg Thompson - Nice snare.  Intimate verse vocals. Another mean verse guitar.  First chorus vocals come in small.  Good instrumental balance.  Vocal delay might, (might) make the choruses a tiny bit too busy.

Huds - Acoustic abit overpowering a good mix on the intro.  Its departure is a bit abrupt.  Good mix/balance overall (aside from the intro acoustic) with the drums just a tad low/small for my taste. Nice outro reverb.

Jason Thompson - The drums are nice and tight.  The verse vocals are intimate but abit low. The chorus vocals are a bit restrained.  The vocal positioning (as noted) is interesting.  DBallenger did something similar.  Fun when you have been listening to the same song 20 times.  The mix has an overall slighty lo-fi quality to it.Reminds me of the good old cassette days.

Jdier - I like the overall mix but it sounds slightly smashed and pumps a bit. The verse vocals are abit low.

JNickel - The mix has a good balance but also has a slight boxy quality to the drums and guitars.  Vocals could come up abit on the verse and pre-chorus.

LoudSongSinc - Big drums, very nice.  The vocals seem to lean to the left channel...by design?  Good intrument balance (I would prefer a bit more chorus guitars).  Nice tight ending.

Maxim - Dig the intro.  Good mix balance.  Nice energy at the choruses. I could use more lead volume or maybe less FX on that middle lead.  But the FX on the "lead" guitar during the last verse was cool.  I would prefer it off when the last chorus comes in and maybe more volume too.  Interesting minimalist outro.

M diFazio - The vocals have a slightly tiled-bathroom sound to them.  The entire mix has this distance to it that seems to stem from strange global EQ settings.  It makes the chorus vocals sound seperate from the intruments.

MGA - Intro acoustic abit loud, its departure is abrupt.  Smallish verse vocals, probably just a volume thing. Yeah the snare has abit to much snap.  Chorus vocals need abit more volume too.  Drums have a bit too much high end energy to them that is most telling during the chorus (overhead processing).

MGT - Pumping drums, abit harsh. It prevents the vocals from being in front (which may be by design). I like were you were going with the chorus rythmn guitars.  I feel the right channel guitar is abit to thin and bitting for my tastes (Like they used the guitar setup from Crass).  Left channel sounds nice and cruchy.  Generally the balance sounds good if EQed abit harshly.

MSE - Good mix.  Vocals are a little restrained.  I like the intention of the dropouts.

Osumosan - Beautiful snare treatment.  Chorus vocals are smaller than verse vocals. Chorus guitars are a abit low for my tastes. Maybe a tad much bass guitar.  It swallows the middle lead guitar.  I like the fade out.

Patrik T - Acoustic guitar is too big as it muddies the first verse a bit.  I would prefer more meat to the kick, but the drums sound great. The chorus guitars swamp everything when they come in.  Nice "Do You" section. Last verse vocals are too low.  Yeah those guitars are too loud, they swamp even the bass for the last third of the song.

Podgorny - No kick drum and heavy bass causes some cloudy-ness through out the song.  It steps on the verse vocals a bit.  Nice verse guitar treatment (reverb).  Chorus vocals are smaller than the verse.

Rankus - Nice balance.  Nice chorus.  Maybe, just maybe more verse vocal...especialy when the verse noodle guitar comes in (which could be a touch lover; same with the last verse).  Yeah, I like the overall mix quality.

slash5956 - Holy drums batman!  Cool, but the pumping is distracting.  The Bass, at that volume muddies things up a bit.  The chorus guitars in order to compensate are too loud and swamp everything. Nice simple vocal treatment gets swamped thru most of the song.

spoon - Nice clean intro.  Crisp balance and open mix.  Nice natural snare.  The choras vocals have to compete with the chorus guitars at times.  A bit too much third verse lead.

sstillwell - Holy kick batman!  I like the sound but maybe not for this particular song.  Nice vocals.  Chorus guitars are too low and dont give it the energy they have available.  A goodly amount of low end here.

Teleric -  Where did the kick go?  Haha, I think it is fine.  Just tough to compare after sstillwell's mix.  I will check back on this.  No, the drums are abit low.  Nice last verse breakdown.

YZ - Nice verse vocals.  Kick is abit small.  Nice balance in general.  Like the long fade out.

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: ATOR on July 11, 2008, 03:41:04 pm
@MGaudio
I agree about my drums being muffled esp compared to the guitars. In my book there's no such thing as drums hitting too hard  Very Happy
And yeah, Fletcher and Munson will bite you in the ass if you monitor too low.

J-Texas

My school of thought is if you make it sound perfect and badass in your room... unless it's perfect... it will be a nightmare for the ME.

Of course you try to make your mix as perfect and badass as possible in the room you work. We have mastering to make up for our room anomalies. If it doesn't sound perfect and badass in our room it's higly unlikely mastering can make it sound perfect and badass outside of it.


loudsongsinc

I do wish the chorus guitars were "bigger." I had a tapey sounding multitap delay set up for the vox that I should have tried on the guitars. That would have helped the thickness. I also notched out some mid to give the vox room to breathe.

Should I have left the mid in (2.5-3k)? Left in more low mid (200-400Hz)?

I think that just turning them up would do the trick.

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 11, 2008, 04:15:31 pm
ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 14:41


J-Texas

My school of thought is if you make it sound perfect and badass in your room... unless it's perfect... it will be a nightmare for the ME.


Of course you try to make your mix as perfect and badass as possible in the room you work. We have mastering to make up for our room anomalies. If it doesn't sound perfect and badass in our room it's higly unlikely mastering can make it sound perfect and badass outside of it.



FUCKING BACK BUTTON!!!!!!!  Twisted Evil

Dude. I set myself up for that response. I'm not explaining it correctly, I guess. I just make a mix that I'm comfortable with and see if it sounds good in a few different places. I think that the second set of ears for the tweaking of EQ by an ME is the logical next step. I don't even pretend to hear what you people hear man. In this case, I got in the truck with it and new two things: I immediately heard the things you guys are talking about and I knew I didn't have time to change it.

spoon wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 12:05

BTW, did you get new monitors, or did you mix this in a different space than you normally use?



Yes and yes. I usually mix on the NS10M's in my converted bedroom, partially treated, good enough for editing radio shows control room thingie.

I figure a few more mixes (of stuff I didn't record) in the newly finished studio will help me get used to it.

I'm using some ProAc studio 100 monitors down there. There is definitely a "masking" of the high end response on those speakers with the grills on (duh). I didn't like it, but maybe it's necessary. I've only mixed on NS10's my whole life, so going to a set of monitors like that is a totally different animal.

Patrik T wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 13:03


Jason Thompson:
Too heavy lows in the kick. The overall tone is gathered good but vox might be slightly
off regarding toghetherness with the rest (tone, not the obvious shift in time).



Absolutely, Patrik. Very fair and I agree. Thank you.

spoon wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 14:35


Jason Thompson - The drums are nice and tight.  The verse vocals are intimate but abit low. The chorus vocals are a bit restrained.  The vocal positioning (as noted) is interesting.  DBallenger did something similar.  Fun when you have been listening to the same song 20 times.  The mix has an overall slighty lo-fi quality to it.Reminds me of the good old cassette days.



Ouch! How many times recorded over cassette? Did you have to put scotch tape over the "safe" tabs?

I did some automation on the vox before it hit the compressor, that's why the chorus parts aren't really there. I could have spent a lot longer on the bass and vox. Thanks man.




My wife is going out of town, so I should have time this weekend to do the crits guys.

DISCLAIMER: I usually go in order of the submission thread, so the guys at the end... it's just the wine. Sorry in advance!  Laughing
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: spoon on July 11, 2008, 04:20:55 pm
J-Texas wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 15:15



spoon wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 12:05

BTW, did you get new monitors, or did you mix this in a different space than you normally use?



Yes and yes. I usually mix on the NS10M's in my converted bedroom, partially treated, good enough for editing radio shows control room thingie.

I figure a few more mixes (of stuff I didn't record) in the newly finished studio will help me get used to it.

I'm using some ProAc studio 100 monitors down there. There is definitely a "masking" of the high end response on those speakers with the grills on (duh). I didn't like it, but maybe it's necessary. I've only mixed on NS10's my whole life, so going to a set of monitors like that is a totally different animal.


spoon wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 14:35


Jason Thompson - The drums are nice and tight.  The verse vocals are intimate but abit low. The chorus vocals are a bit restrained.  The vocal positioning (as noted) is interesting.  DBallenger did something similar.  Fun when you have been listening to the same song 20 times.  The mix has an overall slighty lo-fi quality to it.Reminds me of the good old cassette days.



Ouch! How many times recorded over cassette? Did you have to put scotch tape over the "safe" tabs?

I did some automation on the vox before it hit the compressor, that's why the chorus parts aren't really there. I could have spent a lot longer on the bass and vox. Thanks man.




I think the new setup is working out for you.  I dont mean lo-if in a bad way at all.

I think you are right, a few more mixes of others stuff will give you a better feel of the new monitors.

BTW, a bazillion songs were done on those monitors so you are in good hands.


Cheers,
David
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 11, 2008, 04:27:00 pm
Thank you, David. But aren't you talking about the REAL NS10's? You know... the ones with the toilet paper taped over the tweeters?  Surprised
Title: My opinions, post 1 of 4
Post by: YZ on July 11, 2008, 05:05:46 pm
Ok guys, I managed to get some time to review the submissions, so here I go, in no particular order:


Chrislett - it seems you found the same difficulties in the lead vox as I did, and ended up with a similar treatment but with a little more space in it; gtrs a tad low to my idea of what it should be; did not like the 'special', specially the reverbed BD but hey, it is a matter of taste...  it's up to the client to decide.  ending sounds way too effect-y and disconnected from the overall song vibe. I really did like the mix at the beginning except for the springness (from the fx?) of the ac gtr.
The way you voiced and placed the vamp and chorus gtrs make it all sounds smaller than it could be, specially with the powerful drums you achieved.

Maxim - hehe...  do-ya right in the start...  cool...  I'm liking very much the vocal treatment, does not have the spittiness I have in mine. The drums does not seem to have been too manipulated from the originals, this is not a bad thing per se. But sincerely, in my  humble opinion the mix is not together, I see quite a few interesting ideas but they are not 'gelling' into a cohesive whole.

Antman - interesting. raw. vox too dry for my taste. too much gtrs.  all tracks seem very little changed from the originals (again, this is not bad in itself).
It is becoming obvious to me that my monitoring situation is really unfavorable.

carefulcollapse - drums! big Smile for the boldness!  and like how you worked the bass gtr.  the other gtrs are too piercing, apparently forcing you to squish the vox too much, making this mix sound strained.  too heavy hand in the dynamics processing overall.

DevinK - oh the intro...  very cool...  too 'spacey' drums, too tiny vamp grs, chorus gtrs seem disconnected from the whole, vocals start quite OK to me but later on became a tad dull.  not cool to repeat the intro effect so much.

Telesound - trashy drums, powerful kick; I like it but not for this particular song; bass is more felt than heard, ok this matches the aesthetics of the drum kit. vox a bit midrangy, which makes it work well in the context; vamp gtrs too loud.

Interim note: I never thought that criticizing other people's work would be such a difficult task!

Huds - I like the drums.  intro gtr sound good at the intro but could have been tamed down a bit after that. vox has level but lacks presence, has a pesky upper midrange peakiness that detracts from the result. also a tad dry for my taste, the same goes for the BVs. with a better vocal treatment the mix would come together a lot better...  a little less vamp gtrs, better vox and this mix would go up several notches IMHO.


We have 28 submissions not counting mine, so I will post my comments in 4 blocks of 7 mixes to avoid posting an opinion based on tired ears.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Huds on July 11, 2008, 05:30:47 pm
* Long-winded post warning!! *

My observations on the various mixes. You'll notice I captured avg rms for each submission too. For those patient enough to wade through my ramblings, there's a general question (and comment on the avg rms deal) to everyone at the end...

Listening on my K240 cans, so I won't comment much on low-end unless there's something that sticks out in the ol' headphones.

Finally, before getting into the comments, these are my opinions only.  I could be (and some cases probably am) completely off mark, but hey - this is how we all get better, right?

Chrisilett
Reverb seems too predominant at beginning. BGV sitting too far up front (maybe diff eq?). Don't like the kick treatment after the do-ya break. Snare seems too hot. Treatment on the ending could be a genre violation
Avg RMS: -19.70/-19.28

Maxim
Diversion from orig performance cool.  LV leveling audible in spots.  BGV's draw attention, I personally eq BGV's different so they stay background (and in many cases mask pitch issues) Don't like the underwater guitar fill during last verse - borderline genre violation
Avg RMS: -16.09/-15.70

Antman
Guitars seem too hot. Are you primarily a guitarist? I am, and I find it shows in a lot of the stuff I do.  I usually get a mix to where I like it and then drop the guitars down a bit. Snare reverb catches my attention - maybe should be shorter to avoid the 80's thing?
Avg RMS: -16.01/-15.66

carefulcollapse
I like the breathy sound on the lead vocal. Overall mix sounds really "processed"? Seems a bit harsh in the 3k-4k range.  Not a fan of the abrupt ending in this case.
Avg RMS: -13.18/-13.10

DevinK
In first few seconds I thought I accidentally opened Incubus' Megalomaniac.  Too much flexing of editing/looping/FX chops on this one.  Very well done, but this one gets a genre violation.
Avg RMS: -21.04/-20.77

grantrichard
Kick catches my ear right out of the gate - to me sounds more like something done in a metal tune. Borderline genre violation. Do I hear compressor pumping everything during the chorus?
Avg RMS: -14.51/-14.62

My mix
I shoulda shoulda shoulda split up the lead vocal track to help manage the levels. In retrospect, AG could be backed off and perhaps a nice reverb would've worked better than the duplicated/delayed/panned treatment.  Also could've placed the bass guitar better.  Giving myself a borderline genre violation for throwing the tacky flanger on a piece of the solo, maybe even the doubling/panning too...
Avg RMS: -17.23/-17.31

mdifazio
Vocal seems too hot and the effect is too much - almost a combing thing. Guitar treatment gets this one close to a genre violation - is that flanging/phasing?
Avg RMS: -20.33/-20.88

MGA
Vocals sound a little thin.  Is there a comp on that drum buss? Almost sounds drum machine-ish. Upfront guitars - another guitarist?  Maybe back off the reverb a bit on the first and last set of do-ya's
Avg RMS: -14.65/-14.72

MGT
Drums could be more "open" - seem overly compressed/cymbals too dominant. Guitars seem too harsh to me.
Avg RMS: -14.55/-14.62

MSE
Kick sounds tubby, maybe a touch more bottom snare too... I like dropping the drums/bass out in spots, but in some places sounds uneven coming back in.
Avg RMS: -16.66/-16.11

patrikt
Too much guitar (another guitar player?) in the heavier parts.  Hey... where'd the solo go?
Avg RMS: -11.77/-12.68  Loudness war violation Smile

podgorny
I hear a low/low-mid build-up, but that may be due to how squashed this one seems. Loudness war violation - I'd really like to hear this one without the 2 buss squash
Avg RMS: -10.20/-11.31

ATOR
I'm not sold on the snare sound/treatment. I'm also not a big fan of real wide BGV's, but it seems to work in this mix.  Do I hear pumping in the last chorus? Borderline loudness war violation?  Big reverb - maybe too big?
Avg RMS: -12.47/-12.49

DBallenger
Really "round" bass.  OK, who moved the vocals.  Hey - where'd that guitar go? oh there it is. Problems importing this one?
Avg RMS: -16.41/-17.18

ElDuderino
A fellow NJ mixer Smile Lots of guitar - another guitarist? maybe even back the snare off a bit. I like ending with the do-ya's - this one's dry, there was another that had a heavy 'verb. I think I'd like something in between...
RMS: -12.78/12.99

Osumosan
Didn't someone else mention string noise on the bass? Definitely hear that... low end doesn't sound "right" - not good/bad/too much too little, just doesn't seem right - almost like a loudness curve of some sort. I'm not a fan of the buzzy guitar treatment at the beginning.
Avg RMS: -15.82/-15.72

slash5969
Over-compressed drums.  sounds like the guitars are clipping. Heavy chorus on lead vocal could be a genre violation.
Avg RMS: -15.47/-15.71

spoon
Snare could be a bit tighter - perhaps back off the bottom mic a bit. Kick feels muffled. Reverb on the lead vocal seems a bit big.
Avg RMS: -14.52/-13.54

sstillwell
Kick seems tubby, snare sounds a bit overcompressed - needs more attack.  Lots of growl on the bass, not sure if that works here. Reverb seems too heavy on the lead vox. BGV's sound too present to me.  Is that a heavy chorus effect on the solo?
Avg RMS: -15.21/-14.94

Teleric
seems like too much cymbal.  Kicks sounds "boxy" on my cans...
Avg RMS: -18.44/-18.79

YZ
I like the intro without drums, but might like it even more without the bass.  Speaking of bass, it does seem a bit "floppy", which I think someone else mentioned.
Avg RMS: -16.30/-16.30

JasonThompson
OK, we all know about the vox - putting that aside... Agree with another who said too much low-lows on the kick, may work in with another genre but not here IMHO (not enough for a genre violation). I think the LV could be more present (seems to get lost up to / in to the last chorus) in some places, and the BGV less present in places too.
Avg RMS: -17.86/-16.15

Loudsongsinc
Other than the kick, pretty good.  Seems like the bass guitar fades back in the first chorus - was that intentional?
RMS: -16.03/-16.24

GT
Add me to the list of those not into the re-amped guitar.  Vocals seem all over. I like the delay that comes in on the vox, but to me seems too up-front... maybe move it back a little bit.
RMS: -14.29/-14.26

jdier
Cymbals too present for my taste... I guess this is the final that was duplicated? I do like the mix, but don't like the loudness wars violation Smile
Avg RMS: -11.38/-11.29

JNickel
I'm on board with the intro/drums boxiness.  Bass seems to take over the chorus. Where's that nice little clean solo guitar between verses? It seems like this starts out with everything except overheads panned center and then it spreads out?
RMS: -12.78/-13.03

Rankus
Kick has more of a hard rock / metal sound for me - minor genre violaton Smile  Good level balance, but the hard-panned BGV's distract my easily distracted mind.
RMS: -19.17/-20.12

General performace issues:
If I was tracking this band, there's some stuff I would ask for a "do-over" on... the bass, some of the background vocals have pitch issues etc.  I would probably suggest the band double the BGV parts so crazies like me don't try to fake it with duplicated tracks and delay on the mix.

OK... what's this "genre violation" thing this Huds knucklehead is talking about...
After seeing the tags on jdier's mp3 and doing a little google, I came up with this for the band:
----
The newest release from R. Mutt is a bit of a departure from the funk- and metal-flavored recordings of the 90's. For Heptane the band returns to it's Rock and Roll roots pulling influences from artists the band covered in the late 80's like the Dead, The Band, Rolling Stones. Pop influences like Cheap Trick and the Kinks can be heard as well.

What most will hear on the first listen is a gritty American Rock and Roll sound that could fit as well in classic rock sections as in alt.country bins.
----
If you saw this description BEFORE you started mixing, would you have changed what you did?  I certainly would.  I may have contradicted myself in the reverb department somewhere, since it was a staple of 80's, but these days things tend to be a bit drier so a more current sound would fit. Perhaps this calls for both genre violations AND FX violations?

Maybe for future IMP's we could get "the band/artist is looking for a [insert known artist / genre here] sound"????

Loudness Wars Violations:
Hey... I'm guilty here too... we all seem to want our mixes to be powerful sounding, but for the sake of these mixing exercises can we all agree on no "finalizing" Smile  It's a mixing thing, not a mastering thing, right?

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Huds on July 11, 2008, 05:37:17 pm
Before anyone completely freaks out... I did NOT monitor on the K240's only - listened on Tannoy's and Mackie's too...
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 11, 2008, 05:40:46 pm
Quote:

Grant Richard - Aggressive snare treatment...nice. Sample or effect? Nice vocals. Nice mix overall.


Neither.....squisssssssh.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 11, 2008, 05:42:01 pm
Quote:

grantrichard
Do I hear compressor pumping everything during the chorus?



Probably
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: loudsongsinc on July 11, 2008, 05:57:51 pm
Huds wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 16:30


Loudsongsinc
Other than the kick, pretty good.  Seems like the bass guitar fades back in the first chorus - was that intentional?
RMS: -16.03/-16.24



Thanks for the critique, Huds.  

I'll admit, the kick is a little different.  I heard it as thuddy.  What should I change about it to make it fit better?

The bass does pull back during the chorus, as well as the snare and overheads.  That's something I do to increase the perceived volume of the chorus.  Normally I'm working with heavier guitars and I pull the vocal back as well.  It seems to work, although you are the first person to ever point out that they noticed specifically what was going on.

Of course, this is the first time I've had feedback from real engineers. . . thank you!


Scott
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Huds on July 11, 2008, 06:32:14 pm
What should you change? That's the $64000 question... every mixer will give the get-the-bass-and-kick-to-lock speech, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone really describe it well in detail. What *I* usually do is listen to the overall tune and decide if I want a driving bass or driving kick (this song I went with the bass).  Get it sounding good to *you* (yeah I know - that's subjective) and then move to the kick.  Most of the time I'll scoop out the 200-300 range on kick just 'cuz things tend to muddy up as you build.  A little bump at 4-5K for a little snap and maybe a little bump down lower, but make sure it's not fighting with the bass.  Then start bringing everything else in

As for pulling back the bass, overheads, etc. to make the chorus seem louder, why not just give yourself some space from the start? Start your mix to peak around -12 or -6 and just turn up the volume.  Wait until your mix sounds good before you start trying to make it loud.

And the "real engineer" thing... who me? nahhhhhh  There's a lot of great mixers here - I'm sure they'll chime in with advice too...

loudsongsinc wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 17:57

Huds wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 16:30


Loudsongsinc
Other than the kick, pretty good.  Seems like the bass guitar fades back in the first chorus - was that intentional?
RMS: -16.03/-16.24



Thanks for the critique, Huds.  

I'll admit, the kick is a little different.  I heard it as thuddy.  What should I change about it to make it fit better?

The bass does pull back during the chorus, as well as the snare and overheads.  That's something I do to increase the perceived volume of the chorus.  Normally I'm working with heavier guitars and I pull the vocal back as well.  It seems to work, although you are the first person to ever point out that they noticed specifically what was going on.

Of course, this is the first time I've had feedback from real engineers. . . thank you!


Scott


Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Patrik T on July 11, 2008, 07:08:31 pm
Huds wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 23:30

patrikt
Too much guitar (another guitar player?) in the heavier parts.  Hey... where'd the solo go?
Avg RMS: -11.77/-12.68  Loudness war violation Smile


RMS doesn't tell anyone anything about sound and even though I investigated in the RMS-concept some years ago, I today find it completely useless for audio.

Basically any visual aid, metering or meter that I see in the digital sphere is more or less a pain in the butt...

Thanks for the comments though! Too much guitar, dunno - I felt like tilting this piece towards a little more stoner-rock.

Most of the solos and licks went into the thrash simply because I have never understood why a singer would want to get his message torn apart by some Stratocaster-king doing his "thing" on top of the vox...

Mixing always starts in the rehearsal room.



Best Regards
Patrik
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Careful Collapse on July 11, 2008, 07:30:41 pm
Like I usually do, randomized blind listening with a key at the bottom

1) Snare drum sounds flat to me.  Lots of space in this mix – I didn't hear this song as spacey song, personally.  I envisioned a more tight sound.  Sounds like the vocal is tuned.  I would have liked to have tuned a few parts myself but I don't have any tune plugins :\  Perhaps a bit excessive in like the 5-6k region.  I don't really hear any bass, either.  Too many guitars at some points makes things messy.

2) The delay on the acoustic guitar sounds very odd to me.  The drums sound a bit wimpy I think. The vocals fit nicely though, maybe a little bit dynamically erratic during the chorus.

3) Where's the bass guitar?  The snare is very prominent, also somehow sounds artificial to me – is it a replacement?  The “dooo yaah doo yaah” parts are pretty buried.  Vocal is a little too low at points I think.

4) Stereo acoustic guitar sounds odd to me.  The drums are way in the background, they don't poke out at all.  Bass guitar is kinda farty and inconsistent.  What on earth happened to the vocals?

5) The drums sound robotic to me.  Where's the bass guitar?  And where'd the hi hat go?  The 'dooh yah's fit pretty well.  The vocal isn't as upfront as I'd envisioned.  The mix as a whole is dry, which I think is appropriate, but I think this song could benefit from more punch.

6) Acoustic is kinda tubby and overcompressed.  The drums sound good, perhaps a bit cloudy and undefined, but nothing horribly offensive.  Bass guitar sounds a little over-compressed but at least it's placed nicely.  Vocal is placed nicely too, and in a nice tight spot.  Lots of bass on the guitars – a bit muddy I think.  That little accompanying clean guitar is a bit hard to hear. Background vocals too a little to low in my opinion.  Not perfect but I think the “fixes” would minor and easy enough anyway.

7) Where did all of the high end go?  I know it's cool on this forums to talk trash about high end but yikes.  Uh, another weird delayed vocal.   ????

Eight (stupid emoticons)) The drums sound robotic.  Are they replacements?  Another big roomy vocal in what I saw as a tight,  muscular song.  Bass guitar seems a bit muddy to me.

9) Interesting intro.  Not much high end on this one.  Vocal is really loud and uncompressed. Though I thought a song like this would benefit from in-your-face compression, I seem to be in the minority.  The mix sounds a bit distant, a bit lacking in upper midrange and again high end. What is that effect on the guitar near the end?

10) I don't know about the fading in drums although starting it out somewhat differently is refreshing.  Nice balance, perhaps a bit dark on the overall mix.  Probably the most muscular and tightest mix I've heard thus far.

11) Again, I didn't see this song as a big reverberant one.  The snare is really loud compared to everything else.  Really liked muting the drums huh?  That effect on the end is kinda cool although I don't know how appropriate it is for the type of song.

12) Really loud vocals and drums...  or really quite guitar and bass.  Snare sounds robotic and replaced.  Anyway, another roomy mix.  Guitars may be a little muddy.  Okay the balance is better once the electric guitars kick in.  The 'doo yah's are kinda loud.

13) Drums sound weird, like they're too heavily gated or something.  Bass guitar is a little bit farty, too I'd say.  Vocal sounds a little carelessly compressed to me - S sounds aren't particularly sibilant but they're curiously loud nonetheless.  Slow attack time?  Why are the “doo yah”s so dark?

14) Drums sound really thin relative to the instruments.  Another roomy vocal.  A little on the thin end but nothing seems horribly unbalanced.  Again, just roomier than I'd envision that song.

15) OH DEAR GOD THIS IS LIKE A GIFT FROM ZEUS HIMSELF BLESS YOUR HEART

16) Where'd the cymbals go?  Sounds like you may have gotten carried away with drum replacements.  Vocal disappears sometimes.  “doo  ya”s are perhaps a little dark.  Vocal is really loud during the final chorus.

17) What happened to the drums?  Is there a word that means “crushed” but like, 100 time moreso? The whole seems to be pumping oddly to some sort of compression.  What's that on the lead vocal?

18) Guitar are perhaps a bit muddy.  The mix itself seems a little bit lethargic.  Maybe a bit dark, too.  Too much low mids, anyway.

19) Interesting middy acoustic thing.  Vocal sounds pretty good.  Snare may be a little dark.  Is to me, anyway.  On the chorus now, perhaps the whole mix itself is a little on the dark side.  The balance is pretty much on, though.

20) Sounds distant, whereas I heard the song as being more up-front.  Drums are a bit wimpy in what I thought was a more punchy song.  The mix seems a bit diffuse, again I saw it as a tight, muscular song instead.

21) Roomy but at the least it's not VERY roomy.  Bass seems to be pumping in a weird way to me anyway.  Mix sounds a little bit scooped.  It sounds roomier now than it did before, although I'm probably full of shit.  I think the fade out is a great idea, and it's well executed.

22) Drums sound thin.  Vocals do, too.  Mix does, too.  Could use some fattening up, I think.

23) The acoustic guitar sounds like it's at the bottom of a stairwell or something.  Drums sound a bit distant, too.  Vocal sounds like it was room mic'ed in a shed or something.  It's pretty loud.  Is anything left dry on this mix?  That all probably sounded more harsh than I meant it to, for what it's worth.

24) Yikes, the drums sound artificial.  Roomy vocal sound weird for the song.  Pretty loud, too. Where are the guitars?  

25) I think it may be a little dark and the formerly-clean guitar may be a little overly distorted.  The vocal pops and doesn't seem to fit every once in a while but for the most part it's a good balance all around.

26) The delay on the acoustic guitar sounds wrong to me.  The snare seems flat and artificial, too.  I think the mix sounds a little bit scooped overall.  The vocal sounds disparate sometimes, it's kinda loud.  The chorus has a nice balance though, although I wonder where the cymbals went.  

1. imp19 MGT (4:56)
2. IMP19 Huds (4:59)
3. IMP19-ElDuderinoMix (4:35)
4. IMP19DBallenger (5:05)
5. Rankus-IMP19 (5:04)
6. imp19 patrikt (5:04)
7. IMP 19 JasonThompson (5:11)
8. imp19 grantrichard1 (4:59)
9. imp19 mix- maxim (4:45)
10. imp19 MSE (4:53)
11. Chrisilett (5:15)
12. IMP19-spoon (4:55)
13. IMP19 podgorny (4:59)
14. jdier imp19 (4:58)
15. imp19 carefulcollapse (4:33)
16. IMP 19 Loudsongsinc MP3 (4:44)
17. IMP19-slash5969 (4:34)
18. Imp19 Antman (5:01)
19. JNickel imp19 (4:49)
20. IMP19 DevinK 01 (4:40)
21. IMP19-YZ (5:01)
22. IMP19 MGA (5:04)
23. IMP19 mdifazio (5:02)
24. IMP19-sstillwell (4:55)
25. IMP 19GT (4:44)
26. IMP19-ATOR (4:37)

Feel free to dismiss my opinions as I'm just some hack in a bedroom with some speakers.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 11, 2008, 08:07:13 pm
Yeah again - the drum muting, the weird heartbeat kick in the middle and the effect at the end were just something else i would present to the band as an alternate.

I really got into the emotion of the song, and felt that some of those touches enhanced that.  Something had to come up front though, and it sure as hell wasn't going to be the out of tune bass. Or some of the vocals. Or those guitars.

Thanks to all for feedback though - another new set of monitors, and due to moving situation - little chance for playback on anything other than a TV set through my dvd player.

Think both listening situations are probably a little reverb light (meaning my mix is a little reverb heavy especially on the up front things) - and thats what I'll take away with me from this, so thanks!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MoreSpaceEcho on July 11, 2008, 09:13:39 pm
Huds wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 22:30

What most will hear on the first listen is a gritty American Rock and Roll sound that could fit as well in classic rock sections as in alt.country bins.
----
If you saw this description BEFORE you started mixing, would you have changed what you did?  


nope. that's pretty much how i tried to mix it, just really straight ahead, not too obvious with the compression and reverb.

here's my notes, i listened in random order, apologies to the guys at the end...

chrisilett  nice kick. the vox reverb is weird. gtr dropout at the first break is kinda not smooth. the kick break...i don't like it either, sorry. the BVs are too loud on the choruses. trem guitars are cool but a little out of place on this sort of tune. good overall balance, maybe too much bottom snare.

maxim vox sound nice. bass is too loud, drums a little too far back. clean guitar a little loud. i dont like the fx on the lead gtr.

el duderino good mix. drums are too wide. could use more bass. gtrs 2nd verse too loud. BV panned L could be in a bit. chorus gtrs a little too compressed?

sumosan  kick is cool but too overpowering. i dont like the amp sim on the gtr. bass is a little clangy. nice snare. vox a bit too reverby. not bad overall. nice fade.

slash the drums are just way too compressed. they'd be cool for the intro, if you switched to the normal drums when the vox come in. guitars way way way too fuzzy and loud.

spoon lotta bottom snare. lead guitar a little dry and a bit harsh. otherwise cool.

stillwell AG sounds weird. drums too compressed for me. panned BV is weird. vox reverb a bit loud. chorus gtrs too quiet. i don't like the lead gtr fx.

teleric kick leans left a lot. overheads too loud. vox a little too dry, and the levels could be more consistent. leaving the drums out that long is brave.

yz cool intro, i'd be into leaving the bass out too. kick leans left a lot. bass a little loud in the chorus. drums get a little lost in the gtr solo. otherwise cool. i dunno if i needed to hear the chorus again at the end, but nice idea.
   
antman kick leans left. chorus guitars are a little loud and a little muddy. little too much verb on the drums. kick sounds good but too out front, it's a little loud relative to vox. the whole thing gets a little fuzzy on the choruses.

carefulcollapse kinda harsh. kick leans left in beginning.  chorus guitsrs sound weird. the compression is a little OTT on the drums and BVs. lead vox a little low. don't like the amp sim. i like going big with the do yas at the end.

devin k cool ideas just not appropriate for the tune. clean gtr loop is nifty but too loud. i like what you did with the drums at the very end

grantrichard drum comp is cool but too OTT. kick loud relative to vox. the mix feels like its being held back by 2 buss comp esp on the choruses. otherwise it's cool.

huds i dont like the acoutic doubling and the acoustic itself is way too loud relative to everything else. snare is kinda thin. vox a little loud overall. its kind of fizzy (like 10-12k) but not unpleasant. last chorus hits nice. cool verb at the end. a little tweaking of the balance and it'd be great.

mdifazio uhh...it sounds like you reamped the whole mix in the bathroom or something.

MGA acoustic is really loud. vox are quiet. bottom snare out of phase. fx on bvs is too much. gtrs too fizzy.

MGT overheads too loud and way too compressed. snare sounds like it's in a racquetball court and the guitars sound like a beer commercial. harsh overall. sorry.

mine kick and bass are kind of muddy, overall it's a little dark. i had a teeny bit of eq on the mix, but as i was eqing right at the end of mixing i was wary of adding too much high end. oh well.
 
patrik too smashed. drums sound weird, way too wide, they almost sound out of phase, and the drum sound doesn't fit with vox. vox levels are inconsistent. L gtr too loud. i can understand your aversion to guitar solos in general, but for this type of song the lead guitar part is kind of important.

podgorny way too smashed. tiny snare. i like the verb on the clean gtr break. too much verb overall though.

jason thompson that vocal is just too crazy.

loudsong sub on the kick a little too loud. i dunno about the panned lead vocal. a little muddy.

GT drums sound a little too drum machine. i dont like the amp sim. vox a little too effecty.

jdier drums too wide. snare thin. too smashed.

nickel vox a little quiet. the low mids are kinda boxy. too smashed. i like the mono guitars in the second verse.

rankus drums a little too drum machine. vox a little inconsistent. clean guitar a little loud.

ATOR i don't like the acoustic doubling. drum compression is distracting.

i need a nap now.

cheers
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 12, 2008, 12:06:20 am
Quote:

Eight (stupid emoticons)) The drums sound robotic. Are they replacements? Another big roomy vocal in what I saw as a tight, muscular song. Bass guitar seems a bit muddy to me.


That may be the first time I've ever heard any drum described as "robotic".  No they're the originals.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 12, 2008, 12:08:20 am
Quote:

grantrichard drum comp is cool but too OTT. kick loud relative to vox. the mix feels like its being held back by 2 buss comp esp on the choruses. otherwise it's cool.


i hope you're talking about the kick in the verses.  IMO, my kick nearly disappears in the choruses, which bugged me.  

i backed my typical 2buss comp way off on this one, i'll check it out.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: PaulyD on July 12, 2008, 07:39:20 am
PaulyD wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 03:33

Who are the band and the engineer on this?


Got it. Y'all will find out, too...in due time...
Title: Post 2 of 4
Post by: YZ on July 12, 2008, 08:57:21 am
Ok, a few more:

ATOR - what can I say? honestly I loved it but for a little touch here and there. I like the sound of every instrument, just the balances that are a question of personal taste. I'm thinking: this instrumental with my vocal and editing...

ElDuderino - Another one where I like the intro and drum sound; buzzy gtr doesn't do it for me, loud vamp gtrs that I like the sound but are really loud; vocal treatment good, but lacks presence and volume.

Osumosan - intro good, until the over-resonant mondo kick kicks in; it does not match the rest of the kit, a pity because I'm liking the rest of the kit; vocal too distant and buried; another one who went for tinny buzzy gtrs; what's with the bass bukkakke?

Slash5989 - I almost stopped listening when the drums came in, I guess I'm in a mean mood this morning; let me finish my coffee first... ok I'm back...   overpowering kick, very obvious pumping, extremely loud; I like the vocal but not its ambiance; less bass bukkakke than Osumosan but still exaggerated, the mix is tiring to listen to.  do-yas fitting well with the lead; chorus does not rise; ending disconnected.

spoon - I'm liking this one, solid kick, 'natural' snare (maybe a little less bottom?), bass profound but not overpowering, lead vox nice, vamp gtrs well-placed.  chorus does not 'get alive', this is sounding like a variation of my mix? but better kick and bass;  too much do-ya. with better balancing it would sound much better, but a lot of the basic sounds are quite 'there'.

sstilwell -  intro gtr and vocals very 'AM' and filtered; here comes the mondo drums again, but done better than a previous mix;   not comfortable to listen to, gtrs too low, bass also extremely processed (could work as a secondary bass channel)...  is my monitoring this wrong?

Teleric -
intro OK, drums less bright, kinda 'honest drums'; I like the vocal treatment but not the ambiance, too dry for my taste. Another one that kinda reminds me of my mix, your bass seem better than mine just a tad low. the mix could be more open and airy, sounds constrained; middle break interesting.


It is really difficult for me to judge the work of others.

I will come back later with more.



Title: Re: Post 2 of 4
Post by: osumosan on July 12, 2008, 09:45:44 am
YZ wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 08:57

Osumosan - intro good, until the over-resonant mondo kick kicks in; it does not match the rest of the kit, a pity because I'm liking the rest of the kit; vocal too distant and buried; another one who went for tinny buzzy gtrs; what's with the bass bukkakke?
What do you mean by "bukkakke?" Do you mean sloppy and overdone?

Maybe I need to explain where I was coming from on this mix. I don't see this tune as anything other than going for a huge rock anthem retro pop hit. I thought the clean guitars begged for reamping towards this end as well as mondo drums. I thought a bunch of the clean mixes were really nice and big and punchy, but a bit modern sounding, which is fine, but that's not where I went. If I had some time, I'd refine the mids a bit. I also think a "hit" like this needs anthemic verb. To the same end I pushed the guitars down, maybe too much, because I wanted this to be a drums/vox mix with the guitars just supporting that.

Huds: I don't monitor with a sub, but since I've been here, I've tried to emulate the lowend that Mr. Hall is so adept with usually trying to get it as big as possible without going over the edge. I use Yamaha MS5s that try to be what the NS10 were and then a pair of B&W 805 that are very NOT bass heavy, so maybe that's what you're hearing. I've gotten conflicting comments on the lowend/bass. The bass was reamped, too.

I fixed the f--k out of the BG vox, fixing timing and tunage and even modding some of the harmonies.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 12, 2008, 09:51:15 am
PaulyD wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 06:39

PaulyD wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 03:33

Who are the band and the engineer on this?


Got it. Y'all will find out, too...in due time...



Indeed....google the chorus lyrics.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: jdier on July 12, 2008, 10:02:24 am
I still have a few more to listen to.  but here is what I have so far.

Podgorny - Love the holds on the guitar notes a the beginning.  Snare a bit boxy for me.  Great dynamics leading up to the chorus.  Snare works great for me in te Chorus.  Bass/lowend seems to get out of control by the end.

Rankus - Fav last verse and chorus.  love the kick.  Snare seems loud at start but blends right in later.  Full band sound is really mint.  Great 2 measure lead up to the chorus.  Great lead guitar sound

Slash - I like where the bass came in.  Drum sound is nice when it is toned down a bit... more like second verse and on.

Spoon - Nice bass/kick interaction.  nice guitar lead treatment on last verse and chorus.

Stillwell - love the guitar lick treatment near beginning.  Initial acoustic sound is great.  Some times lead vocals are too hot for me.  Great balancing of lead and BGV.  Love the chorus vocal sound, wish guitars were still in with a bit more power.

Antman - love the sound at start but the snare seems to lose it's umph.  What are your overhead settings for EQ?  Did you compress the Overheads?  Really like that sound.  Live the verse vocals, but the chorus is a hair quiet.  Great guitars.

Ator - like the drum sound a lot but they over power the vocals a bit.  Great Vocal sounds.  Love the ending.  Some spoet os fht mix get a bit too thick for me.  Curious if you can share how you got the snare sound.

Carefulcollapse - lead vocal is nice.  do ya's are too pumpy for me.  Drums caught me off guard at first but I like them.  Chorus vocal balancing is really nice.

Chris Ilett.  Like the delayed drum intro.  Tough to cut like that, would have been nice tracked that way.  Nice drum sound but snamere too hot for me.  Low vocal too hot in chorus for me.  All arranging ideas good.  Should have happened at engineering.

DBallenger - low end seems a bit out of control.  This is a tough listen for me.  I like the vocal balances in the chorus.

Devin Knutson - nice intro, vocals are really nicely seated, organ type sound is great.  Chorus guitar cuts are really cool.  Doo-ya's sound perfect.   Love the ending.

El Duderino - Nice tight snare sound.  lead vocal sounds great.  little low in the mis in the first and last verse.  On "No longer there" did you pitch change the second vocal?  interesting.  Wish the guitar solo had a huger more triumphant sounding.  Nice taming of the overheads...  How did you treat them>

Grant Richard - kick too loud for me, but I love the sound.  I like the chorus vocal sound.  I do not like the Do Ya Treatment.  Guitars are nice sounding but too soft.

Hugs - When it started the guitars was up so loud that I thought it was going to be  a trainwreck, but the balance are just great.  Love that the song remains well balance as elements are added.  Wish guitars were more powerful in chorus.  I lose the snare just a bit in the chorus too.

Mdifazio - interesting vocal sounds but a bit loud.  Like the guitar sounds a lot.  Not sure that mix works, but I like a lot of the ideas.

Jnickel - Love guitar sound in intro.  Nice tight kit sound too.  Lead vocal sounds good alone and also when balanced with BGVs.  When the other loud guitar comes in the song loses some steam and power.

jtexas - Curious about the chorus  vocal shift... did you think it was wrong, or just prefer your position?  I like the kick bass interaction.  Did you distort the bass.  sounds great.  really nice approach on the distorted guitars.  Love the false ending.  Really love that.  genious.

Loudsonginc - wow on kick...  Like the altered arrangement for intro.  Love the chorus.  great.  Snare gets lost every once in a while.  Nice though.

Martthie - Great Exciting mix.  All new parts enter with a punch!  Some times guitar high end gets out of control.  maybe dulling down the reverb returns would help.  Great mix.

MGA.  I like the snare, but too loud.  Great guitar sound at the end.

MoreSpace Echo - like the arrangement at start - guitar no drums, but I do not like the fade in.  Would have liked to see this done in the recording session.  Same thing for last verse.  Love the delay on guitar.  Nice overall band sound.  Great vocal harmony balancing.

Osumosan - Great Snare sound.  Like the bass effect but wish is was more subdued.  Vocal treatment is really sweet.  Chorus is missing guitar power.  maybe bass low end is eating up too much room.  Kick may be too big in low register.  Nice sound though.

Patrikt - like intro sounds and gutiar treatments.  High hat is out of control  too loud..  Lead vocal seems a bit out of place being so clean.  Why no solo?

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 12, 2008, 11:26:45 am
Careful Collapse wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 18:30


7) Where did all of the high end go?  I know it's cool on this forums to talk trash about high end but yikes.  Uh, another weird delayed vocal.   ????



Yikes is right. I know I'm liking less and less treb the older I get, but like I said, going from NS10s to the ProAc is a shock to say the least. It sounded VERY dark when I got it back to my house on the Yamahas. If the mixes don't begin to brighten up for me in there... well, I am just getting old!  Surprised

MoreSpaceEcho wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 20:13


jason thompson that vocal is just too crazy.



Dude. I've stopped listening to mixes in fear of even more tinnitus from piercing high frequencies before. But, a different angle on the rhythmic positioning of the vocal... that's a little close minded don't you think?  Sad  

jdier wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 09:02


jtexas - Curious about the chorus  vocal shift... did you think it was wrong, or just prefer your position?  I like the kick bass interaction.  Did you distort the bass.  sounds great.  really nice approach on the distorted guitars.  Love the false ending.  Really love that.  genious.



I am almost in full agreement with Osumosan about the song. Retro pop hit... yes. Rock anthem, not so much!  Very Happy  I really did think retro wave meets road song. I wanted it up to date sounding with the heavy compression on the vox and dry. I'm glad you like the bass, but it's close and no cigar. The LA4 added the distortion, really just some edge, but it fattened it up a lot (too much!). For the "jump in your truck and drive song", I wanted the bottom and that nice hit on the snare. I think the cymbals were harsh in places. I understand your time crunch now. Overall, though, the OH were really usable. I think the kit sounded nice. The vocal thing was a complete accident. But I never missed a beat. I had "If You Were Here" by the Thompson Twins in my head the whole week before. The vocal placement I chose really reminded me of that... or Dave Gahan or something. I know it's hard for everyone to hear it like I do. God knows it's hard for me to hear it the "right" way!  Laughing I'm glad you liked the ending. I wanted more. I figured it was screaming to sort of end the way it started, you know?

I love the song. It's been stuck on me like glue. (I only listen to my version though, since everyone else did it wrong.)  Surprised
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 12, 2008, 11:41:43 am
J-Texas wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 15:15

ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 14:41


J-Texas

My school of thought is if you make it sound perfect and badass in your room... unless it's perfect... it will be a nightmare for the ME.


Of course you try to make your mix as perfect and badass as possible in the room you work. We have mastering to make up for our room anomalies. If it doesn't sound perfect and badass in our room it's higly unlikely mastering can make it sound perfect and badass outside of it.



FUCKING BACK BUTTON!!!!!!!  Twisted Evil

Dude. I set myself up for that response. I'm not explaining it correctly, I guess. I just make a mix that I'm comfortable with and see if it sounds good in a few different places. I think that the second set of ears for the tweaking of EQ by an ME is the logical next step. I don't even pretend to hear what you people hear man. In this case, I got in the truck with it and new two things: I immediately heard the things you guys are talking about and I knew I didn't have time to change it.




THIS IS FROM MAXIM IN THE WHATEVER WORKS FORUM.

Why couldn't I have just said this:

"the way i see it is that my job is to make it sound good in my room

the ME's job is to make it sound good everywhere else... " Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: loudsongsinc on July 12, 2008, 12:38:32 pm
Long azz post warning!!

In the spirit of the project, I offer my first impressions of every  mix I could get to open.  I commented on things that stuck out as really good or not good, everything else seemed acceptable.  Note that I am NOT a professional nor do I have a professional listening environment (240 cans and Yamaha monitors in a treated but very small room).

I will be happy to elaborate upon request.



1)Maxim -  Good LdVox tone, good guitar tone,  DoYa’s loud, exposing tuning, leslie(?) on noodling guitars doesn’t fit, kick
and snare fit well, cymbals fizzy?

2) Ballenger-didn’t open

3)teleric - acoustic and drums in different rooms, would like some ambience on kick;  needs bass; DoYa’s loud, exposing tuning, removing drums works, really builds toward last chorus, Good Mix

4) patrikt - Acoustic muddy;  drums sound very good if not dynamic, cymbals too loud;  rhythm guitars need some verb;  good LdVox tone, but low in the mix; mix gets lost behind  the drums a lot

5) MGA - lots of verb on snare (and OH’s?);  LdVox sounds small;  kick gets boxy in the busy parts of the mix;  lots of verb on DoYa’s;  cymbals too loud;

6)  Jason Thompson - Too much dist on Bass for the verses;  cardboard kick;  vocals are too distracting to  listen more. . .

7) Greg Thompson - Big Mix;  LdVox disappear on “for my invitation”;  too much distortion on  noodling guitar;  good bass;  Do Ya’s very good, don’t notice the bad notes;  Very Good Mix

8) ATOR - Acoustic stereo effect wigs me out;  too much snare bottom;  good bass;  like the guitar tone a lot;  didn’t like the ending, but would’ve been very cool if the DoYa’s were well performed

9) MGT - Drums sound good, just not for this song;  kick has no bottom; LdVox spitty;  the guitars are boring into my skull;  good DoYa’s;  lots of high mid everywhere;  I pulled this up on the Yamaha’s just for fun, now I’m bleeding;

10) Podgorny - bass a little boomy;  LdVox too “in your ear” (slamming into an 1176?);  dry vox and drums don’t play well with very wet guitars

11) Jnickel - LoFi acoustic odd;  there’s a blanket over the drums; no gtr noodling. . . hmm;  good LdVox tone;  guitar fights the Vox for space in last chorus;  

12)Loudsongsinc - kick is low-middy;  thin LdVox, kinda spitty; chorus guitars need some balls;  

13)  Jdier - Long verb on LdVox sounds out of place on dry drums and bass;  drums squiiiished and overpowering for the verses; cymbals too loud; kick has no bottom;  good LdVox tone;  Very Good Chorus

14) chrisilett - LdVox too wet in intro; need to roll off some high end on verb;  BGVox too loud;  very HiFi, smiley face EQ sound to the mix;  second verse doesn’t work, DoYa’s not well performed and lofi kick doesn’t fit; Gtr processing on end is a genre violation (to steal a term)

15) sstillwell - HUGE drums, too huge, too squished;  LdVox very wet and spitty;  nice stereo treatment of noodling guitars;  BGVox sound  very good, but too loud and wide, good solo tone, good DoYah’s

16) Huds - won’t play

17) Osumosan - Nice drums;  bad tone on noodling guitar-overdistored;  good bass but could use more low mid;  DoYah’s too loud;  LdVox buried 2nd prechorus and chorus;  well rounded mix

18) Telesound - don’t like the acoustic panning;  good  LdVox tone, present without spitting/essing;  good guitars;  DoYah’s were a bit forward, move them back with hi rolloff and verb?;  Very Good Mix but kinda squished

19) Carefulcollapse - don’t like the acoustic panning;  Big Mix;  too much cymbal; DoYah’s are pretty large and wide; LdVox in chorus could use some meat and/or volume, abrupt end;  nothing  jumps out as spectacular, but nothing  bad;  Very Good Mix

20) MSE didn’t play

21) mdifazio - too wet; way too wet;  did I mention the effects? there’s a lot of them

22) spoon - drums match the song, good sound, but too much snare bottom;  LdVox ambience could’ve waited until the gtrs come in, it’s fine then;  BGVox could use some automation;  DoYah’s too loud/show the bad performance and cover the LdVox;  LdVox buried a bit in 2nd chorus; nice fade

23) Rankus - acoustic a bit loud;  drums very good, hard rock scooped kick, but good;  noodling is loud and centered over the LdVox;  BGVox too wide; DoYah’s show the performance;  LdVox sounds good and cuts through the chorus, there’s a nice pocket for them; Very Good Mix

24) YZ - Bass a little round;  where’s the kick?;  too much snare bottom;  everything is a little too ambient;  Good BGVox EQ,verb and mix; like the arrangment;  the mix is closer to right than it sounds at first, little less verb, more kick and it is REAL good

25) ElDuderino - LdVox a bit low;  drums sound good, but are overpowering;  noodling gtr has bad tone; gtrs sound good, but don’t mix well, lot of high mid content that hides the Vox

26) Antman - snare a bit disconnected until the gtrs come in;  LdVox low;  gtr tone plays well with the vox; good mix

27) DevinK - don’t like the verb choice for drums;  LdVox sibilant;  REALLY like the creativity shown on this one, maybe cause I’ve heard the “straight” mix 500 times;  I don’t like the ending a lot, but I like that he stuck with his theme, Very Good Mix

28) slash - those drums are nuts squished;  verse gtrs too big;  Vox buried;  everything is huge, no space around anything  



Scott Bryant
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on July 12, 2008, 01:06:07 pm
grant richard wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 09:51

PaulyD wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 06:39

PaulyD wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 03:33

Who are the band and the engineer on this?


Got it. Y'all will find out, too...in due time...



Indeed....google the chorus lyrics.


Umm, Huds critique post, one page back, already spilled the beans.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 12, 2008, 01:31:53 pm
loudsongsinc wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 11:38



6)  Jason Thompson - Too much dist on Bass for the verses;  cardboard kick;  vocals are too distracting to  listen more. . .



Wow. Another one? I think I'll just cop out too. My crits will be much shorter. Or would you feel cheated? Because I do.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: ATOR on July 12, 2008, 01:55:13 pm
Jdier

Curious if you can share how you got the snare sound.


Sure!

Apart from just eqing and compressing the snare I did a couple of other things all at a barely audible level:

- I ran the kick+snare through a short room reverb and crushed it.
- there's a fat plate with a gate on the snare
- I duped the snare and distorted it.

You're not supposed to really hear these things but they all add up to a bigger snare. Listening back I think that I'll turn these elements down a bit to get a more natural sounding snare. It's a little too obvious now.

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Devin Knutson on July 12, 2008, 03:44:04 pm
Thanks for the comments everyone.  I do seem to have a love or hate it approach, don't I?  Again, for the record, there were no samples used, no strings or organ or keys of any kind.  The string swell thing in mine was a guitar note processed through a GSP-2101.

I am going to post my critiques as I get to them, probably one at a time.  I want to go into more detail on each mix that I listen too, so I'll be listening to parts over again, etc.  This means that I'll need to walk away after only a couple mixes, but I'll get through them all.  And each should be somewhat fresh that way.

I will do them in order of submission thread appearance.

First up to follow shortly.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: loudsongsinc on July 12, 2008, 04:00:06 pm
J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 12:31

loudsongsinc wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 11:38



6)  Jason Thompson - Too much dist on Bass for the verses;  cardboard kick;  vocals are too distracting to  listen more. . .



Wow. Another one? I think I'll just cop out too. My crits will be much shorter. Or would you feel cheated? Because I do.




If you would like a more in depth critique, please ask, don't get defensive.  I believe you said in your first post, "From an mix engineer's prospective... I'm embarrassed."

I agree that your vocal timing REALLY works in some places.  Many of the verse lines and one or two in the prechorus/chorus sound VERY cool in your version.  If you had planned that and shifted/stretched/shrunk each line word by word it could be fabulous.  As it is, the bad lines are so bad they hurt.

That said, after listening to the whole tune, here's what I hear in the mix, minus the vocal timing:

snare and overheads sound good; bass gtr takes the low lows but the kick doesn't fill in the low mids, kick doesn't have low lows or low mids or a lot of attack, it's just there;  bass gtr sounds good on the prechorus and chorus, distortion too audible in verses;  DoYa's sound much better than they were recorded;  good volume balances;  LdVox sound is good, little sibilant;  good gtr tones (reamped/amp sim?);  nice fade out

cheating averted

Scott
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Devin Knutson on July 12, 2008, 04:03:24 pm
ATOR:
The chorus on the guitar seems quite thick and makes the bass seem even more out of tune when it hits.  I Like the snare sound quite a bit, but it might be a touch loud.  The kick drum seems a bit mushy, I like the bottom thump of it, but I'm missing the attack a bit.  Overheads seem well under control.  

The vocal treatment is nice.  Can't quite decide if I hear a buried plate back there, or if it's a result of the overall compression.  No matter... it works.

The guitar scratches after "for my invitation" seem disconnected from the rest of the mix.  Like the guitars a lot.  Nice and bright/crunchy without being too over the top.

Second verse moves along nicely.  Again, the guitar chugs seem disconnected into the pre chorus.  

BGVox through the chorus seem to sit quite nicely.  

Guitar lead is nice.  

Boy, I can sure hear the squash on the snare at the break.  I think I would have ducked it a bit there.  The way that buzz remains constant all the way through the silence is quite distracting and non musical for me.  

Do-yas are nice, but I find myself focusing on the pitch rather than the groove.  

Second chorus seems to kick up a notch to another level... Nice.

Aagh!  It just stopped.  I mean... it just...  stopped.  Needs some cleanup on the end there.  There seems to be a compressed overhead to the right that rings and then abruptly gets gets muted as though the engineer just realized that it was still on.

Overall impressions:
Quite like it.  I think it was over-compressed, but then I tend to think that about most things these days.  I just don't understand how that became fashionable, much less tolerable.

The bass guitar being so out of tune kept rearing it's head for me.  It kept pulling me out of the moment to focus on pitch issues rather than the groove and the the song.

There seems to be a slightly scooped, smiley-face sound to the overall frequency balance, but certainly nothing that a competant ME couldn't correct.

Nice job!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Devin Knutson on July 12, 2008, 04:42:26 pm
Antman:
The acoustic guitar in the intro is untouched.  Perfect.  It's a really good recording, and sounds nice the way it is.

Again with the bass out of tune.  It just really jangles my nerves when it comes in.  It seems to undermine the total pro sound we were just hearing from the ac guitar.

Drums are nice, perhaps just a smidge more click on the BD.  Hat and ride seem well controlled and seated, but the crashes are somehow brittle and too loud.  Almost like they were overdubbed.

I like the space on the snare.  It seems to blossom briefly after each hit before tucking back in.

The bass seems a bit flabby.  Perhaps a touch more articulation would have been nice.  This is a tough line though, because it would accentuate even more how out of tune it is.

Vocal seems well seated.  Perhaps a touch low.  I can't decide whether I like them totally dry like that or not.  It seems to fit, but I find myself wishing for some kind of space or motion there.

The Color guitar is maybe just a touch loud, but not that much really.

Lead Vocal could come down a touch through the "from the bed" bit at the end of the chorus.  It seems to really take over.

The back vox through the do-ya's are really dry.  They're actually sticking out they're so dry.  They're not too loud, but they're kind of drawing attention to themselves by being so separate from the music.  I think I would have tried to find a way to tuck them in a bit more with some space.  Also, I can really only hear the top voice in the later ones.  Those could be balanced better I think.

Ending is nice and clean, but feels a bit long.  Good post-walk for DJs though.  Smile


Overall Impressions:
Nice balances for the most part although there were a couple things that sort of stuck out in spots.  I didn't find myself actually thinking about the 2 bus compression, but there was still something of a slightly pinched, nasal quality to the overall sound that I can't quite put my finger on.  Once the acoustic guitar was out of the picture, I didn't notice the bass tuning (or rather, lack thereof) quite so much, although it continued to bug me in spots throughout.

I think it's a good mix.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MoreSpaceEcho on July 12, 2008, 04:54:18 pm
J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 16:26



MoreSpaceEcho wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 20:13


jason thompson that vocal is just too crazy.



Dude. I've stopped listening to mixes in fear of even more tinnitus from piercing high frequencies before. But, a different angle on the rhythmic positioning of the vocal... that's a little close minded don't you think?  Sad  


yeah, you're right. apologies. it was hard listening to all of these in a row (which i did twice) and hearing yours with the vocal shifted...in context of the rest of them it was REALLY distracting. i just listened to yours again, by itself, and i have to admit i was kind of digging the vocal like that. it still sounds fucked up but i can see where you were going with it. the last line of the chorus works really well like that.

overall i thought your mix was good, true to the band. (well, except for the vocal thing, they would probably kill you:) dark for sure, but i've mastered enough records to know that's not really a problem. and i really like what you did with the end.

better?
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 12, 2008, 06:35:16 pm
ATOR – Wide. Chorus-y. Flabby snare. Nice vox. Like the space on the vox. I like the electrics, but it was weird in the middle and then spread. Nice dirty bass thing. Yeah, don’t like the waka, waka guitar in the middle. PO though. It seems like the chorus vocal is one beat ahead, though. : ) A little delay spread out on the lead guitar? Nice. Do Yah’s a little lost. Cool ending.

ANTMAN – Nice tight drums. You exploited those nasty cymbals, though IMO. Tasty delay thing on the vox. With this mix, the snare could be a little more powerful. It’s nice in the verses, but gets lost in the heavy parts. It would be ok for it to be the star in the verses. Something bugs me about the vox in the chorus, they seem a little ahead of the beat. : ) Lead could come up a little more. No reason for the rhythms to be that powerful and wimpy lead (Needs more 200 to 350 like the rhythms have). Do Yahs are getting lost. I edited in a hat where there was a missed stick there. I really heard it in yours. Nice ending.

CHRIS ILETT – Immediately weird early reflection on the acoustic. Needs de-essing in a serious way on the vox. I like the snare, but it doesn’t really seat in the mix. Almost sounds like dudes jamming and you wish the guitars would turn up. IMO the BGVs weren’t in tune enough, or even that well performed to be THAT highlighted. Sounds like some dude in the bathroom trying to harmonize during playback. I really don’t understand the kick thing. No lead. Chris, balances are just way off to me. I like the “hey Ma, look what I can do” guitar effects at the end… not appropriate for this I don’t think. And I’m sure your vox were ahead too, I didn’t notice for some reason. : )

JASON THOMPSON – Way too much low end. Sounds very muddy. Vocal could come up a hair. Nice drums. Overall dark. This gels for me guys. Glued. Eureka!!! That vocal sounds right on time! : ) I like the mids in these guitars. It flows between the parts. Do Yahs a little lost. Vocal definitely could come up. That 10K vocal thing is bothering me to no end. Nice ending. You’re a genius! LOL!!!

CAREFUL COLLAPSE – Wow. Panning. Nice bottom. Cymbals are killing me. I like the sustain on the guitar. Sounds thin, though,  like “Personal Jesus” or something. Nice vocal compression. Maybe a gate though? Sounds like someone breathing heavy on the phone. You pervert. Man, that chorus vocal seems ahead of the beat or something. ; ) I like this. I like what you have going on in the bass tones. I don’t know how necessary it was to reamp or plug or whatever you did on the guitars. The tones were very useable IMO. Nice Do Yahs. Your 7k to 11k could be fine tuned to match the nice stuff you have going on in the lower freqs. Like the punch of the snare. Could use more crack though (couldn’t we all?)  Abrupt ending my man.

SSTILLWELL – Yikes. Mids. Powerful drums man. How in the hell did the vocal end up overpowering those vocal by that much? I’m all for click in the kick, but it sounds like Lars playing with the Wallflowers. I love the quick delay on the guitar. I was about to say AWESOME job on the attention to the BGV’s, but then that low harm came in on the right side! LOL. I like the strings you got out of the bass guitar. Lead voc is just too far out front. Personal preference, I think… but the BGV’s are a mess man. All over the field… and soft panned at that. Good ending.

HUDS – Somebody turn off the chorus! LOL. Your drums sound good. Where are they? That acoustic is stealing the show man. You play guitar don’t you? Takes one to know one. Wait. I think you sing too! LOL. I think this could have really benefited from some more aggressive 2 buss compression. Glue stuff together. I like the lead guitar treatment. Do Yahs are getting lost. There’s not a whole hell of a lot going on down there in the basement. Add some beef. It just drops off after like 150-100 or so. I like the guitar player drifting off into space ending too.

TELERIC – I really expected the drums to really be big from the size of the space you put the acoustic in. Exploited the nasty cymbals. You really limited this thing, huh? Unfortunately it sounds like I could hold this mix cupped in my hands. Cool delay on the lead guitar. I think this mix is all there, but it needs to break free. Very constrained. I like the breakdown, cool idea.  Oh yeah… your vocal is off too! LOL. Boy, is that right guitar soft panned? You need a spanking.

JDIER – Early reflections. Man that cymbal thing is a thorn in my ass. I like this. Everything is very upfront. Oviously this song wanted the drums up front. Nice. What the hell? I was just about to say, “no gguitar in the middle?” Then that delay thing happens. IMO… I don’t know. I wish I would have done this with my lead vocals. Sounds great. You really tamed those sibilant things that bothered me. I like the space. Kick sounds kind of weak to me. Actually everything like 70-60 down. I like the compression on the OH. Just enough to make it rock without it pumping all crazy. There was that missed hat! LOL. Ps. Your vocals were a beat ahead! : )

PODGORNY – Somebody. That’s some compression on that acoustic. I like the drums a lot. SUSTAINNNNNN. Cool. The delay makes it sound like you borrowed the Depeche Mode guitar. A little de-essing, editing the horny phone call panting, and just a squnch more volume on the lead voc. Your after my heart with the heavy comp on those though. Tasty BGV. Liked the delay filling up the stop on the lead guitar. All in all this is very fat and groovin’. Did I tell you that your vocal is about one whole beat ahead? It’s very noticeable on the choruses. : ) One thing that I just now noticed… when all the stuff comes in, you made that nice cutting snare sound like a 14x8 wood snare. Personal preference, that’s all.

YZ – Weird room verb. IMO this needed to either be big or dry. Drums are very small. I’m starting to adjust from the last one. Yeah. There’s really nothing to support all of that cymbal, guitar, vocal stuff. The bass is carrying the whole rhythm it sounds like. Nice lead. Nice dynamics in this one. I think some 2 buss would have helped to seat this vocal in there. I like it up front, but it’s beginning to sound like a karaoke tape. 2 buss would gel this together, but don’t lose the dynamics. I like that you saw the necessity of  a fade out on this one and the reprise of the chorus was excellent. That was my second choice. I just like the false ending idea more. Opinions, options. Great idea. By the way… your vocal sounded out of place. Like it was a beat ahead or something. : )

OSUMOSAN – Nice space. Heavy on the vocal though. I need more punch in the snare if you’re gonna do that to the kick. Like I said on a mix earlier, I don’t think it was necessary to totally change the guitar sounds. They were cool to me. Yours sound like emulated plugin stuff. Nice bass guitar… I like the strings, they come out too much a lot of times though. Get that under control and it’s beautiful. I think the release is nice on your 2 buss, but it’s the attack that is bothering me. I’d have to listen again on that. A little slower, I think. Great ending.

RANKUS – I think that drum compression treatment would work any other time, but it’s totally exploiting that junk in the cymbal. Solid kick man. I think here, it’s almost like the rest of the drums sound killer, so how do you fuck up your whole drum mix to compensate for trash on the cymbals. You do another take. I’m sitting here thinking about this the whole time. Why? Because it’s the only thing that really bothers me about this mix. This is the first time I’ve had to start one over, but I’m going to. Whoa! Shitty ending man… clean up after yourself! LOL. 2nd listen. That kick is awesome. Maybe missing a little bass guitar. Lead licks may be a little out front. This is nit-picky though. Yes. Too loud for me. Besides that cymbal shit, and the fact that your vocal is a beat ahead… this is very listenable. I like it.

MARTTHIE 08 – Big drums. Nice drum compression. Like the sustain you got. I like this. Wow, that guitar on the right is fucked up to me. Great drums compression man. The second part of that verse… the drums sounded like Alex Van Halen for some reason. LOL. PAN THOSE GUITARS man! LOL. There’s some wacky shit on those electrics. I think it’s just EQ, it’s fine. It’s cool. Hard pan those suckers and during the chorus do some different EQ man, that’s wacky. I like this a lot. I definitely see where you were going with it and it hits hard. Nope there’s some plugs or something on the guitars too I see it at the end. That one on the right……… ps. Move your chorus vocals to the right one beat while you’re at it! ; )

DEVIN KNUTSON – I’ll have you know that it’s 5pm on the east coast, so I figured it was okay to get some wine. I also took out the trash to give my ears a rest. Don’t worry, I washed my hands before I touched your mix! Let’s go. Creative. I hear that you got the Depche Mode guitarists too. Wet, dry. Left, right. Chopped… hey it’s 4:20. How appropriate. I lose the drums in the choruses. They sound nice though. I like all the bells and whistles man, but this isn’t that kind of song to me. I think it would have been WAY more effective used here and there. It really seems to showcase you instead of the song. It’s like a remix. It’s VERY creative though.

J.NICKEL – That’s cool on the acoustic. That f’ing cymbal thing is like someone kicking me in the nuts and spitting in my face. A little de-essing on the vox. Good drum compression. I like this as a dark mix. Bass guitar gets kind of honky once in awhile. You left it dull. I like that. That’s what I was going for too. Nice BGV’s. This would open up very awesome with a shelf around 12k and up I think. Good mids.

JDIER – I HOPE THAT THE FIRST ONE WAS IT.

EL DUDERINO – Acoustic compression. Nice drums dude. Another plugin? Those electrics sound full. Nice. The starting of the second verse is where everything comes together for me on this one. The little lick in the background gets lost though. I like the mids in this one. I think I’m done talking about the cymbal thing. But you know what? Your vocal is a beat ahead! LOL. I don’t have a lot to bitch about on this one. Maybe a scooch up on the lead vocal? The Do Yahs too. I thin there’s a place with this lead vocal where it can be too far up or too far back. It’s weird. It was hard to seat for me. When I did get it, it sounded a hair too far back. Like this one. Cool ending.

GREG THOMPSON – Another chorus thing. Nice drums. “For my invitation” sounds very disconnected. Like some punch-in or something. I LOVE the feeling of that guitar riding the high strings in the verses. I hate the plugin treated guitar. I’m not sure about the singer enjoying himself in the bottom of the Grand Canyon either. Man IS that a plugin? I could have used harder panning in the guitars too. Nice ending. Whoa. That was quick though (fade).

GRANT RICHARD – That hurts my ears like a Sly and the Family Stone Record! LOL. You mixed this like it was heavy rock, I think, man. The pump on the OH is distracting. As is that kick for this song. I like how all of the other elements gel though. Very full throughout the spectrum. Nice. A little more lead please? Filtered BGV’s? Not sure about that. I like the lead vocal. BGV’s here, there, everywhere. That’s strange to my brain. Left, right, group, spread, filtered, straight. It’s too much IMO. Guitars are nice.

SLASH – WOW-WEE- What in the world on the vocals? I flanger or chorus pops out once in a while. Man, that’s a lot of compression. Sounds like extreme EQ before it hits the drum compression. Plugs on the guitars? Bro… this is muddy and distorted. Even though everything is spread out, with that much pookie on everything, it makes it very suffocated.

PATRIK T – HEAVY compression. Fucking cymbals! Guitars are a little loud in the chorus. Nice tight drums. That lead vocal could be tamed a little more. This is very dirty. I think you should listen to this mix with the left guitar (chorus) turned down a tad and THEN pan those suckers. It will make clearer what happening on those drums and the lead vocal. A little automation would be nice on the lead vox. It sounds like you have a lot of compression on the drums, but 2 buss would tie this together and also wrangle-in some of those things jumping out. Dirty ending. You need a beating! : )

MAXIM – Bass is heavy, huh? I love the early use of the Do Yah’s. I would love to trade places with the acoustic and that dirty guitar. The reason? In this mix… I now miss the acoustic. It was out there all alone and now I miss it. I know you replace it with another guitar, but I still miss it. Did you know that you have the chorus vocals like a beat early? LOL. Leslie delay thing on the lead? Interesting. I love the hard panning. WOW. You got the Depeche Mode guitar too? That guy is busy these days! More kick, less bass guitar and I like this.

MGAUDIO – Where’s the beef in the snare man? Actually, it sounds like there’s a hole all the way from 150-500. “Ode to Fletcher and Munson” man. This would slam if there was some meat between the buns. Wait! Did I say that out loud? There’s a lot of 1.5k to 3K or something on that snare. Very out of place. As was that incredible verb on the BGV. This is cool to me (besides the above mentioned).  Dirty ending. Get a rope.

SPOON – I like. A little too much of that bottom snare mic for my taste. Lead vox a smidge loud and heavy on the mids. I think the untouched vox had a lot. This could use some extra compression on the vox (this is not just because I love it). I need some more beef in the snare. The bass guitar and kick sound like they’re married and happy together. Another mix, that IMO, could use some more high bass/low mids. High BGV a little hot for me. By the way… your lead vocal is a beat early. ; )

MORE SPACE ECHO –  (couldn’t download it. Come back to it)

LOUDSONGSINC – BOOM! A few less dB on that low end concentration. Lead vocal could use some taming. This is not melting together for me. It sounds pretty much “faders up” with a little EQ and verb. Nice ending.

MDIFAZIO – Another room mix. Man. I gave a disclaimer earlier. I’ve had wine. My feet are tingling. I’m here to tell you that the life has been sucked out of this mix. It’s like a blackhole is pulling things out of it. The weird harmonics going on in the overly processed guitars is weird. It’s swirling and ringing. There is absolutely no midrange in this at all. The vocal is over everything. I AM NOT RIPPING YOU man. Find what it is that you did to these tracks. Did you do major eq and then compress that and have to turn things down? Take all of that shit off of there and see where you stand.

DAVID BALLENGER – Smooth bass sound. Ok dude. Someone said that we did something similar. This is not at all similar. Your vocal IS a beat ahead of the “real” thing. I thought that mine (being a beat later) sounded a little more moody. Wait! Did you just cut out a line? YIKES. Anyway, I thought mine sounded a little more moody. You moved a guitar too? Anyway, I thought mine sounded a little more moody… this really does sound wrong to me. It’s early, but not even in any “pocket”.  

I’m sorry man, but this sounds fucked up and I’m really offended now that a comparison was made between my vocal and this. I COULD say “no offense” to you, but… it’s constructive criticism man. “odd” and “off” are two totally different things.

Over and out.








Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 12, 2008, 06:53:23 pm
loudsongsinc wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 15:00

J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 12:31

loudsongsinc wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 11:38



6)  Jason Thompson - Too much dist on Bass for the verses;  cardboard kick;  vocals are too distracting to  listen more. . .



Wow. Another one? I think I'll just cop out too. My crits will be much shorter. Or would you feel cheated? Because I do.




If you would like a more in depth critique, please ask, don't get defensive.  I believe you said in your first post, "From an mix engineer's prospective... I'm embarrassed."

I agree that your vocal timing REALLY works in some places.  Many of the verse lines and one or two in the prechorus/chorus sound VERY cool in your version.  If you had planned that and shifted/stretched/shrunk each line word by word it could be fabulous.  As it is, the bad lines are so bad they hurt.

That said, after listening to the whole tune, here's what I hear in the mix, minus the vocal timing:

snare and overheads sound good; bass gtr takes the low lows but the kick doesn't fill in the low mids, kick doesn't have low lows or low mids or a lot of attack, it's just there;  bass gtr sounds good on the prechorus and chorus, distortion too audible in verses;  DoYa's sound much better than they were recorded;  good volume balances;  LdVox sound is good, little sibilant;  good gtr tones (reamped/amp sim?);  nice fade out

cheating averted

Scott


Thank you Scott. I respect that. Please don't expect that THAT was getting defensive or our little internet relationship will never work and I'll have to walk out on you and you'll be PM'img me for months. I'm direct. You'll know (with this disclaimer) when I'm heated, bro.

Agreed on everything you said. Except for the distortion the bass, which I mentioned before was intentional. Guitar tones are what they are. Nothing but EQ.

Good medicine... received! THX.

JT
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Devin Knutson on July 12, 2008, 06:55:20 pm
Chris Ilett:
I like the sound of the intro.  It feels a bit long though.  I like the way the drums come in with everything else at the pre-chorus, but I wanted some more momentum into the second half of the verse there.  It just kinda stayed the same till then.

I like the vocal treatment.  It's close and intimate without being distractingly bone dry.

The bass is out of tune, and seems a bit mushy.

The drums seem squished and have some frequency balance issues.  Sounds like smiley-face EQ.  Or like a multi-band compressor is digging in way to deep on the lower mids.

At the turnaround back into the head, it feels like I can hear a fader move.  Can't put my finger on it, but it seems like it builds up, but then doesn't fall back into the head smoothly.  Like something was cut off abruptly at beat three.

Second verse seems kind of plodding to me.  Still hearing the tuning issues in the bass.  It's distracting.

Guitars seem a bit thin in the second pre-chorus.  Background voxes are both too loud in the chorus.  More guitar, please.

The breakdown idea is interesting, although I don't understand the kick drum choice here.  it's all mid.  and the verb is just strange.  I think I would have taken all the space off the voice and made it really close, and dropped the kick to a subliminal sub frequency heartbeat kind of thing.  That might have worked better for me.

I really like the way it kicks back into the groove after the break.  The snare and guitars are perfectly locked here, and it really gives it that sense of momentum back into the main groove.

Do-Yas's are balanced nicely.

Background vocals are again too much in the second chorus.

I think I like the weird wash tremolo thing there at the end, but it cuts in too abruptly for me.  I'm like "Where'd the guitars go?"  I think I would have transitioned from the straight sound into that hyper processed thing more slowly, and then faded it quicker at the end.

Overall Impressions:
It's close.  The big thing with this one for me is that it just didn't seem to have any sense of forward momentum.  It's a bit lifeless.  It needs a bit of excitement.  The way the background vocals are presented seems a bit lackadaisical, and the guitars just aren't punching through for me.  I think that some of the overall balance issues with the vocals may have helped here.  And I think you may have lost me at the breakdown.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 12, 2008, 06:57:44 pm
MoreSpaceEcho wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 15:54

J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 16:26



MoreSpaceEcho wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 20:13


jason thompson that vocal is just too crazy.



Dude. I've stopped listening to mixes in fear of even more tinnitus from piercing high frequencies before. But, a different angle on the rhythmic positioning of the vocal... that's a little close minded don't you think?  Sad  


yeah, you're right. apologies. it was hard listening to all of these in a row (which i did twice) and hearing yours with the vocal shifted...in context of the rest of them it was REALLY distracting. i just listened to yours again, by itself, and i have to admit i was kind of digging the vocal like that. it still sounds fucked up but i can see where you were going with it. the last line of the chorus works really well like that.

overall i thought your mix was good, true to the band. (well, except for the vocal thing, they would probably kill you:) dark for sure, but i've mastered enough records to know that's not really a problem. and i really like what you did with the end.

better?



Wow. Now I have a complex... like I'm muscling motherfuckers into a good crit or something!  Laughing  I just wanted people to see another POV, which you did, like you did... and I thank you.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: loudsongsinc on July 12, 2008, 09:20:58 pm
J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 17:53

Please don't expect that THAT was getting defensive or our little internet relationship will never work and I'll have to walk out on you and you'll be PM'img me for months.



J, are you seeing another engineer?  You just don't seem to open up to me anymore.  Like, you know, we don't connect. . .


Very Happy



Scott
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Patrik T on July 12, 2008, 09:24:08 pm
J-Texas wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 00:35

 You need a beating! : )


Oh yes I do! And if you gave me one hour more things would kick serious effin butt!

Seriously, I grabbed the RAR in the last minut and gave it a go on my HP laptop...

WHAT
EVER

I'd like to propose the biggest toasts of all in mankind for Mr Hall that make things like these happen.

Patrik
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 12, 2008, 11:24:54 pm
loudsongsinc wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 20:20

J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 17:53

Please don't expect that THAT was getting defensive or our little internet relationship will never work and I'll have to walk out on you and you'll be PM'img me for months.



J, are you seeing another engineer?  You just don't seem to open up to me anymore.  Like, you know, we don't connect. . .


Very Happy



Scott


Surprised
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 13, 2008, 08:43:25 am
Genre violation IS small minded!

About J Texas and the vocals all being a bit 'behind'. It was pretty obviously a mistake, but actually worked in parts. You should probably realise it, and listen with an open mind to see if it triggers any ideas.

So, what IS a mastering engineers job...? Twisted Evil

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MoreSpaceEcho on July 13, 2008, 02:17:53 pm
i thought "genre violation" was a pretty reasonable criticism, actually.

the mastering engineer's job on some of these submissions would be to turn them DOWN.  Shocked
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 13, 2008, 02:32:58 pm
Patrik T wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 20:24


I'd like to propose the biggest toasts of all in mankind for Mr Hall that make things like these happen.

Patrik



THANKS.

i'm happy to deal with this as i firmly believe in it's ability to educate through real life simulation.

sorry i didn't submit this time, i just had NO TIME!

i'm going to try and get some reviews done though.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 13, 2008, 02:40:43 pm
J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 10:41




THIS IS FROM MAXIM IN THE WHATEVER WORKS FORUM.

Why couldn't I have just said this:

"the way i see it is that my job is to make it sound good in my room

the ME's job is to make it sound good everywhere else... " Rolling Eyes


that's a really flawed point of view.

my room, being REALLY good sounding, is anything but perfect.

my goal is for it to sound killer where ever the band is listening to the refs and making their recall notes.

i believe firmly that my job as a mixer is to deliver a product that sounds nearly identical every where else as it does inside my room.

i think most successful mixers would agree with that.

i HIGHLY doubt CLA just brushes it off by saying, "well, it sounds good in here........"

if that were true, he wouldn't be the king of modern radio rock and be demanding the rates he does.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 13, 2008, 02:42:05 pm
jdier wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 13:48

Anyone know if J is going to post a mix?  


not this time.  SORRY!!!!

if i get to it in the coming weeks, i'll email you a link to it.  it's not fair for me to sneak one in past the deadline if i don't let anyone else do that.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Devin Knutson on July 13, 2008, 04:01:54 pm
J-Texas:
There seems to be a massive buildup in the 150-300 range.  Not sure if this was a decision or a monitoring issue.  It's not exactly "muddy" but it is unnatural sounding.

The bass is out of tune.  Because of the overall band-limited sound, it almost sounds like an acoustic bass through an amp.  It's actually kind of nice that way as a sound, but it doesn't really work for me overall.

The vocal is nice and present, but perhaps a tad low.  It's tough for me to tell against all that low-mid.

I like the guitars quite a bit.  They're nice and crunchy without being overbearing.

The do-yas'a seem to be balanced well, but they are super dry and seem to be sticking out a bit as a result.  I'd like them a bit more tucked in, and part of the groove.

The vocal seems to be getting really buried now in the third verse after the lead guitar comes in.

After the second chorus, there doesn't seem to be anything going on in the left channel any more.  It loses balance for me a bit.

Ha!  I REALLY like the tiny break turnaround in the final do-ya's!  That just never occurred to me.  It works really well.  Nice.

Nice smooth fade that kicks off just before the phrase turnaround.

Overall Impressions:
Other than the odd frequency build up in the low mids, I think things are mostly level balanced fairly well.  There are a few things that stick out a bit here and there, but nothing huge.  The bass tuning just plain bugs the crap outta me, I'm afraid.


Regarding the delayed vocal...  There are places where it works - where it could be deliberate.  These moments are really nice, and offer a refreshing take on the song.  They are however, far more rare than I think you may realize.  For the most part, there just isn't any rhythmic relationship whatsoever between the vocal and the track.

I do tons of theater, and every so often (typically during a "review" type show), I'll run into has-been, also-ran singers who perpetually sing w_a_a_y behind the beat like this.  They are generally older, and when pressed on the issue will screw their noses into the air and declare petulantly they are being "artistic".  They're not.  They just suck.  I hate them.  'Nuff said.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 13, 2008, 04:30:42 pm
I didn’t want to seem like I wasn’t giving you a fair shake. This is as honest and objective as I can be.

DAVID BALLENGER – 2nd LISTEN – A lot of bass guitar. Lines 2, 3, and 4… I see where you are going. The pre-chorus is very ahead of the beat. It is non-musical to me. Same with the lead guitar licks. They are extremely behind the beat. With the vocal being that ahead of everything, the lagging guitar licks make it sound like a train wreck. The balance of the BGV (Do Yahs) is off. Now the guitars at the end are ahead of the beat. The EQ sounds pretty nice on things. Did you start all of these tracks at the head and line them up. There is a lot of weird panning stuff in there too (like at the end). Artistic? OK. But it’s distracting. Guitars, in the middle of measure are going from center to left, left to center. I don’t know if that’s appropriate man.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 13, 2008, 04:54:02 pm
Devin Knutson wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 15:01

J-Texas:
There seems to be a massive buildup in the 150-300 range.  Not sure if this was a decision or a monitoring issue.  It's not exactly "muddy" but it is unnatural sounding.

The bass is out of tune.  Because of the overall band-limited sound, it almost sounds like an acoustic bass through an amp.  It's actually kind of nice that way as a sound, but it doesn't really work for me overall.

The vocal is nice and present, but perhaps a tad low.  It's tough for me to tell against all that low-mid.

I like the guitars quite a bit.  They're nice and crunchy without being overbearing.

The do-yas'a seem to be balanced well, but they are super dry and seem to be sticking out a bit as a result.  I'd like them a bit more tucked in, and part of the groove.

The vocal seems to be getting really buried now in the third verse after the lead guitar comes in.

After the second chorus, there doesn't seem to be anything going on in the left channel any more.  It loses balance for me a bit.

Ha!  I REALLY like the tiny break turnaround in the final do-ya's!  That just never occurred to me.  It works really well.  Nice.

Nice smooth fade that kicks off just before the phrase turnaround.

Overall Impressions:
Other than the odd frequency build up in the low mids, I think things are mostly level balanced fairly well.  There are a few things that stick out a bit here and there, but nothing huge.  The bass tuning just plain bugs the crap outta me, I'm afraid.


Regarding the delayed vocal...  There are places where it works - where it could be deliberate.  These moments are really nice, and offer a refreshing take on the song.  They are however, far more rare than I think you may realize.  For the most part, there just isn't any rhythmic relationship whatsoever between the vocal and the track.

I do tons of theater, and every so often (typically during a "review" type show), I'll run into has-been, also-ran singers who perpetually sing w_a_a_y behind the beat like this.  They are generally older, and when pressed on the issue will screw their noses into the air and declare petulantly they are being "artistic".  They're not.  They just suck.  I hate them.  'Nuff said.




Devin, I'm not sure if you're trying to be tactfully condescending or what. There has not been a single person, including one other engineer, that has said those vocals were so out of place that there had to be something wrong. Of course, they had never heard it placed anywhere else, either. For you to say that "there isn't any rhythmic relationship whatsoever between the vocal and the track" is insulting, not only to me... but to the other musicians that have enjoyed listening to the song. I am absolutely appalled that you would attempt to discredit my taste and my musicianship. Shifting a whole track to the right, exactly the same all the way through the song, while keeping it right on beat can hardly be compared to falling behind the pocket like a lazy lounge act. I guess I know, from the end of your post, how you feel about my rebuttal.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 13, 2008, 05:29:00 pm
j.hall wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 13:40

J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 10:41




THIS IS FROM MAXIM IN THE WHATEVER WORKS FORUM.

Why couldn't I have just said this:

"the way i see it is that my job is to make it sound good in my room

the ME's job is to make it sound good everywhere else... " Rolling Eyes


that's a really flawed point of view.

my room, being REALLY good sounding, is anything but perfect.

my goal is for it to sound killer where ever the band is listening to the refs and making their recall notes.

i believe firmly that my job as a mixer is to deliver a product that sounds nearly identical every where else as it does inside my room.

i think most successful mixers would agree with that.

i HIGHLY doubt CLA just brushes it off by saying, "well, it sounds good in here........"

if that were true, he wouldn't be the king of modern radio rock and be demanding the rates he does.


I think we're getting at the same thing here. The part of the POV that I just read into it: Being comfortable with your room and knowing how it translates. You know, from working in your place as much as you do, the things you need to do to make it sound good in other spaces. Wouldn't you say? I wouldn't think that (you said yourself that it isn't perfect) you would know the final touch freqs... right? I mean, it could sound good to you in most other places, but it couldn't hurt to be tweaked to sound as good as it's going to get in all places. Did I say any of this right?
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MoreSpaceEcho on July 13, 2008, 05:39:05 pm
i think you're taking devin's criticism a little too personally man. it didn't read as condescending to me. the vocal *does* sound weird. if i got that track to master i would raise an eyebrow at that vocal.

the *idea* of it is cool, don't get me wrong. like i said before i can see where you were going with it, and some phrases do work great. but it's not totally in the pocket the whole time, and if it's gonna work with the timing shifted like that, it's gotta REALLY be there you know? i think if you had more time for the mix and could go through and really fine tune the timing of each phrase it could really work and be more interesting than the original, which admittedly is pretty straightforward (NTTAWWT). as it is, it's not there yet. that's all.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MoreSpaceEcho on July 13, 2008, 05:48:11 pm
deleted, sorry!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 13, 2008, 06:35:48 pm
Afraid it's a violation bud.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Devin Knutson on July 13, 2008, 08:55:03 pm
J-Texas wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 13:54


Devin, I'm not sure if you're trying to be tactfully condescending or what. There has not been a single person, including one other engineer, that has said those vocals were so out of place that there had to be something wrong. Of course, they had never heard it placed anywhere else, either. For you to say that "there isn't any rhythmic relationship whatsoever between the vocal and the track" is insulting, not only to me... but to the other musicians that have enjoyed listening to the song. I am absolutely appalled that you would attempt to discredit my taste and my musicianship. Shifting a whole track to the right, exactly the same all the way through the song, while keeping it right on beat can hardly be compared to falling behind the pocket like a lazy lounge act. I guess I know, from the end of your post, how you feel about my rebuttal.


Well, I certainly apologize if you felt it to be insulting, I certainly didn't mean it that way.

I'm not calling into question your taste or musicianship, I am simply commenting that the placement of that vocal doesn't work.  I realize that you have said that you like it.  That's cool, man...  like what you like.  Doesn't work for me though.

From a theory standpoint, if you have melodic phrase descenders walking over the turnaround into the next phrase upswing, that can be a really happening effect here and there.  If it happens every single time, there might be room for thought.

And now, of course you are perfectly free to accuse me of being a "theory" junkie, with no taste or whatever...  Have at.  It's all good.  Smile
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 13, 2008, 09:00:39 pm
You're a theory junkie with no taste or whatever.  Very Happy
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 13, 2008, 09:14:41 pm
MoreSpaceEcho wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 16:39

i think you're taking devin's criticism a little too personally man. it didn't read as condescending to me. the vocal *does* sound weird. if i got that track to master i would raise an eyebrow at that vocal.

the *idea* of it is cool, don't get me wrong. like i said before i can see where you were going with it, and some phrases do work great. but it's not totally in the pocket the whole time, and if it's gonna work with the timing shifted like that, it's gotta REALLY be there you know? i think if you had more time for the mix and could go through and really fine tune the timing of each phrase it could really work and be more interesting than the original, which admittedly is pretty straightforward (NTTAWWT). as it is, it's not there yet. that's all.


If that's what I was going for... it would be cool. I would have worked into a production masterpiece (if only in my mind). It was purely accidental. I thought that it felt "right", so I didn't think twice about it not being the intention. Who am I to question someone's artistic license? It sounded fine. The thing that I got out of the criticism, was that "what... you couldn't hear that it was fucked sounding? You suck." So, yes... I took it personally.

I might (for gits and shiggles) go back in and try what Devin was  saying and not have EVERYTHING on the turnaround, because I still think it sounds very interesting that way.

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 14, 2008, 03:56:56 am
When I can bare to open up the session again, I'll certainly try out some of the suggestions from this too*. This is what IMP is all about, and why it's so useful.

I've not had my kit for that long, and my first set of monitors messed up pretty quickly, so I've only done 2 songs on this set.
Car stereo was broken too, which I love to use as it's where I listen to 90% of music.

Having said that I've got ears, damnit, and I totally get some of the comments, and totally don't get some of the others. At least I managed a stereo mix this time and didn't lose all the backing vocals.


*Not intended to tar anyone else with the same brush as myself.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: maxim on July 14, 2008, 05:54:47 am
i had said (elsewhere):

""the way i see it is that my job is to make it sound good in my room

the ME's job is to make it sound good everywhere else... "


to which j replied:

"that's a really flawed point of view."



what, in your opinion, is the role of the ME?

do you use one?

without a doubt, the better you know your room, the more you are aware how things will translate elsewhere

however, unless your room is perfect, you're going to be in trouble if you rely on it

even if you do the mastering yourself (a la terry), it's still best to have the right environment and do it in a separate session

cla gets his mixes mastered, right?






Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 14, 2008, 07:19:54 am
maxim wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 04:54

i had said (elsewhere):

""the way i see it is that my job is to make it sound good in my room

the ME's job is to make it sound good everywhere else... "


to which j replied:

"that's a really flawed point of view."



what, in your opinion, is the role of the ME?

do you use one?

without a doubt, the better you know your room, the more you are aware how things will translate elsewhere

however, unless your room is perfect, you're going to be in trouble if you rely on it

even if you do the mastering yourself (a la terry), it's still best to have the right environment and do it in a separate session

cla gets his mixes mastered, right?









I think what J meant was...

I've heard stories of guys like Rich Coste and the like getting their mixes mastered and not having ANY EQ REQUIRED on some songs.  I believe it.  If your mix is perfect, then there's no need for an ME to EQ it.  Plain and simple.  If you know you're room (or better yet, if your room is PERFECT), then it's YOUR job to make things perfect.  

Brad Blackwood told me on IMP17 never to mix with the mastering engineer in mind.  Just make it sound good, and nail the balance and sonics as best I can.  Seems like good advice to me.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 14, 2008, 08:56:32 am
Chris Ilett wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 02:56


Car stereo was broken too, which I love to use as it's where I listen to 90% of music.



Where in the world did you find a set of RCA cables that long?  Surprised
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 14, 2008, 08:59:19 am
Same place I learnt to mix.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 14, 2008, 09:02:28 am
grant richard wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 06:19


Brad Blackwood told me on IMP17 never to mix with the mastering engineer in mind.  Just make it sound good, and nail the balance and sonics as best I can.  Seems like good advice to me.


... which is exactly what I said. I'm glad there are a select few out there. Hell, Terry has a whole thread where he didn't have to use EQ in a freakin' mix! The rest of us... mix it what you're comfortable with in your space and let the second set of ears tweak it. Voila!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 14, 2008, 10:08:25 am
maxim wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 04:54


what, in your opinion, is the role of the ME?

do you use one?

without a doubt, the better you know your room, the more you are aware how things will translate elsewhere

however, unless your room is perfect, you're going to be in trouble if you rely on it

even if you do the mastering yourself (a la terry), it's still best to have the right environment and do it in a separate session

cla gets his mixes mastered, right?




i took your statement to mean this:

if it sounds good in your own mix room, then it's not your problem what it sounds like in the real world.

just by reading the two lines, i think my assumption is pretty black and white in what you said.

your implication is something i totally agree, i just don't think you stated it very well.

i would have written more like this:

"my job is to learn my room and how it translates to the real world.

i require an ME to ensure that thought's fruition"
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 14, 2008, 02:11:24 pm
j.hall wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 09:08


i would have written more like this:

"my job is to learn my room and how it translates to the real world.

i require an ME to ensure that thought's fruition"



Yeah, what he said.  Smile
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: spoon on July 14, 2008, 03:33:37 pm
Thanks all who have put in a review....


The jury is in: everyone wants less bottom snare mic.

So, I re-listened to mine based on various comments...oh as an aside, I think some people are mixing up mixes and submitters.  I randomize the listening and listen blind but I can see how things can get cross-pollinated.

I say this as a couple of comments on mine and other's submissions are so off that I can believe it is a monitoring issue on the reviewer's end.  They must have mixed up submissions and submitters.

But, the snare.  Well I still like it the way it is.  I (like you all) had my choice of mics....I like the snare-filled snare.  The top mic was way too boxy for my liking.  I realize I am in the minority on this one, but I dont think I would changed that if I had a chance to revisit my mix (unless the talent requested such a change).

I go into most of my IMPs blind as to the pre-discussion.  I prefer it that way, unless the talent is on this forum and offers insight into the outcome of the final product.

So I am curious.  What about that snare (in my version) begs for a change...try to articulate this to me...is it a genre thing...you know stuff like that is what I would like to know.  Cause I really would keep it as is....you know, sounding like an actual snare drum (one type of snare drum, that is).

I realize this is all MOP (matter of opinion) but this is one MOP many of the reviewers agree on.

Cheers,
David
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 14, 2008, 04:18:05 pm
spoon wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 14:33

Thanks all who have put in a review....


The jury is in: everyone wants less bottom snare mic.

So, I re-listened to mine based on various comments...oh as an aside, I think some people are mixing up mixes and submitters.  I randomize the listening and listen blind but I can see how things can get cross-pollinated.

I say this as a couple of comments on mine and other's submissions are so off that I can believe it is a monitoring issue on the reviewer's end.  They must have mixed up submissions and submitters.

But, the snare.  Well I still like it the way it is.  I (like you all) had my choice of mics....I like the snare-filled snare.  The top mic was way too boxy for my liking.  I realize I am in the minority on this one, but I dont think I would changed that if I had a chance to revisit my mix (unless the talent requested such a change).

I go into most of my IMPs blind as to the pre-discussion.  I prefer it that way, unless the talent is on this forum and offers insight into the outcome of the final product.

So I am curious.  What about that snare (in my version) begs for a change...try to articulate this to me...is it a genre thing...you know stuff like that is what I would like to know.  Cause I really would keep it as is....you know, sounding like an actual snare drum (one type of snare drum, that is).

I realize this is all MOP (matter of opinion) but this is one MOP many of the reviewers agree on.

Cheers,
David


I hadn't listened to it yet, but after this, I felt I must.

For my taste, the bottom snare mic lacked impact, and I think the end result of your snare sound lacks impact.  It doesn't have much body either.  The reason I used more top mic is...I suppose...the 'boxiness' you wanted to avoid.  MOP indeed.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: spoon on July 14, 2008, 05:00:31 pm
grant richard wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 15:18

spoon wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 14:33

Thanks all who have put in a review....


The jury is in: everyone wants less bottom snare mic.

So, I re-listened to mine based on various comments...oh as an aside, I think some people are mixing up mixes and submitters.  I randomize the listening and listen blind but I can see how things can get cross-pollinated.

I say this as a couple of comments on mine and other's submissions are so off that I can believe it is a monitoring issue on the reviewer's end.  They must have mixed up submissions and submitters.

But, the snare.  Well I still like it the way it is.  I (like you all) had my choice of mics....I like the snare-filled snare.  The top mic was way too boxy for my liking.  I realize I am in the minority on this one, but I dont think I would changed that if I had a chance to revisit my mix (unless the talent requested such a change).

I go into most of my IMPs blind as to the pre-discussion.  I prefer it that way, unless the talent is on this forum and offers insight into the outcome of the final product.

So I am curious.  What about that snare (in my version) begs for a change...try to articulate this to me...is it a genre thing...you know stuff like that is what I would like to know.  Cause I really would keep it as is....you know, sounding like an actual snare drum (one type of snare drum, that is).

I realize this is all MOP (matter of opinion) but this is one MOP many of the reviewers agree on.

Cheers,
David


I hadn't listened to it yet, but after this, I felt I must.

For my taste, the bottom snare mic lacked impact, and I think the end result of your snare sound lacks impact.  It doesn't have much body either.  The reason I used more top mic is...I suppose...the 'boxiness' you wanted to avoid.  MOP indeed.

Hope that helps.


See I thought it did have enough impact (for me).  But I did like your snare sound.  You partially answered my comment on yours by your post above...now that I know it is not a sample, what FX did you apply the snare track?

Regards,
David
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MoreSpaceEcho on July 14, 2008, 06:30:56 pm
i just listened to yours again and i have to agree, the snare lacks body and impact. it's very present in the mix, which is good, but just the sound of it is kind of wimpy, there's not enough crack to it (for my taste). did you flip the phase on the bottom mic? i was hating my snare sound until i did that.

the rest of your mix is great though!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Antman on July 15, 2008, 12:43:35 am
Thanks everyone that commented on my mix, I've found it especially insightful and useful  Smile

Someone asked me about compression on the overheads: Yes and no, I sent them to a group channel with kick and bass, but at a lower level, and that channel had some very heavy compression settings. I found getting that snare sound was really a matter of getting the right relationship between attack and body between the two snare mics (Read; attack/release on the bottom mic).
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Antman on July 15, 2008, 01:37:24 am
Ator:

The split acoustic guitars at the start doesn't do it for me. I intepretted that as an intentional opening up of the mix from the beginning into the first chorus, which doesn't happen like this.

The guitar licks and lead parts are seated nicely. I love the snare sound, and it fits in the verse and chorus nicely. The vocal sounds good to me, tonally,  but for some reason I'm not feeling anything from it. Take this with a grain of salt, people said the same about my mix.

OOhhh lead part came in, feels good, well done.

Hmm, is there some compression on the "Do ya"s? There's some sort of uncomfortable attacky sound that makes the individual voices kinda distracts me from the overall sound of the do ya's.

Ohh, nice ending, I liked that.

The kick drum was good, it didn't stand out immensely, but it's presence was there in the back of my mind moving things along.

Chris Ilett:


Acoustic sounds nice, it feels quiet, which is nice, but with foreboding. The bass slips in nicely, I would have brought the drums in with the vox. I'm longing for them now, especially as the guitar licks go past.

I'm not digging the reverb on the vocals. It sounds too hard, maybe if some of the reverb's highs were brought down.

The backing vox in the chorus is quite distracting, he's kinda fighting for the centre of my attention with the lead vocalist, which is something I did consider doing, because those backing vox sounded great to me, but it really needed to go more one way or the other.

Tremolo/phaser effect is weird.... I don't know if the sound should feel spacey, from what I can tell the song is about some guy that's still in love with a woman who's marrying another man? Just doesn't sit with me.

also, the last solo could be louder, I felt it was there to lift the last chorus into a excited, feel good climax, which requires it to be fighting against the (now well engrained in the listeners mind) chorus vocals.

Jason Thompson:

Acoustic is okay, quite loud, which gives it more of a top 40 character.

Snare sounds MUFFLED. The rhythmic quality of the snares sound (compression?) is nicely shaped, but to me the EQ just makes it feel unnatural. It also sounds like the snare drum is actually going to be chewing up a lot of your head room, since you seem to have turned up the entire snare sound to make up for it's lack of presence due to a lack of certain higher frequencies.

I like the fade at the end.



Carefulcollapse:


I like the panned acoustic, it gives it a nice hardness/realness and is something I haven't heard yet.

Relationship between the kick drum and snare is really nice in the verse. Unfortunately the crashes are a bit too loud, and as the verse leads into the chorus, the hi-hats start to feel too loud and uncomfortable, partly due to level, party due to EQ. I would have automated them if I wanted them that high in the verses to begin with.

The snare drum seems to lose it's snareyness in the chorus when the other instruments come in. Perhaps automating the bottom mic up a bit? But the other thing with the snare is, that it doesn't seem to carry the rhythm, after it's been played. If you've used compression or reverb on this, set the release/reverb times with the kick drum playing too, that way, you can set them to fit into the song rhythmically.

That guitar part on the right hand side during the second verse is too loud and keeps drawing my focus away from the vocals.



Hmm, the do ya's are again, weird and hitty on the Do's, I might've used some RMS compression to take the attack out of them. plus there seems to be some sort of weird reverb or something on them? ANd they might be too loud.


Wow, song ends abruptly.


stillwelll:

The guitar at the start seems to sound a bit lowfi, did you take out some lows?

The vox are incredibly overpowering, and the reverb doesn't suit the verse when it's that strong. I feel like I'm in a bathroom. Actually, the reverb feels uncomfortable throughout the entire song and the vocals too strong,

The snare seems like this tiny thing off in the background, and is completely dwarfed by the kick drum and vocals.

Did you use a sample on the kick drum? It sounds like it belongs on a metal album and feels really disconnected.

I like the way you faded that guitar part out though.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----


Okay that's all from me for today, I'll do some more later.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 15, 2008, 03:28:08 am
spoon wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 16:00

grant richard wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 15:18

spoon wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 14:33

Thanks all who have put in a review....


The jury is in: everyone wants less bottom snare mic.

So, I re-listened to mine based on various comments...oh as an aside, I think some people are mixing up mixes and submitters.  I randomize the listening and listen blind but I can see how things can get cross-pollinated.

I say this as a couple of comments on mine and other's submissions are so off that I can believe it is a monitoring issue on the reviewer's end.  They must have mixed up submissions and submitters.

But, the snare.  Well I still like it the way it is.  I (like you all) had my choice of mics....I like the snare-filled snare.  The top mic was way too boxy for my liking.  I realize I am in the minority on this one, but I dont think I would changed that if I had a chance to revisit my mix (unless the talent requested such a change).

I go into most of my IMPs blind as to the pre-discussion.  I prefer it that way, unless the talent is on this forum and offers insight into the outcome of the final product.

So I am curious.  What about that snare (in my version) begs for a change...try to articulate this to me...is it a genre thing...you know stuff like that is what I would like to know.  Cause I really would keep it as is....you know, sounding like an actual snare drum (one type of snare drum, that is).

I realize this is all MOP (matter of opinion) but this is one MOP many of the reviewers agree on.

Cheers,
David


I hadn't listened to it yet, but after this, I felt I must.

For my taste, the bottom snare mic lacked impact, and I think the end result of your snare sound lacks impact.  It doesn't have much body either.  The reason I used more top mic is...I suppose...the 'boxiness' you wanted to avoid.  MOP indeed.

Hope that helps.


See I thought it did have enough impact (for me).  But I did like your snare sound.  You partially answered my comment on yours by your post above...now that I know it is not a sample, what FX did you apply the snare track?

Regards,
David



I did not apply any FX to the snare.  Here is how I treated it...

Top Mic:

EQ3 7-Band
-4.5 DB Boost at 159.7 Hz, Q 1.0
-3.1 DB Cut at 454.4 Hz, Q 1.0
-7.0 DB Boost at 3.75 kHz, Q 1.0

Massey CT4 Comp
-Slow Attack
-Fast Release
-3 DB Reduction

Bottom Mic:

EQ3 7-Band
-HPF 24 DB/Oct at 194.2 Hz
-LPF 6 DB/Oct at 5.04 kHz
-4.9 DB Boost at 3.13 kHz, Q 1.02

Dyn3 Comp
-Att: 118.2ms
-Rel: 41.0ms
-Ratio: 3:1
-6 DB Reduction


Now, a lot of my ambiance came from the overheads.  The EQ curve would take way too long to type out since it differed on both mics.  I will tell you I comp'd both overhead mics with a BF76 at 8DB reduction peak. Slow attack, Fast release. 4:1

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 15, 2008, 10:08:12 am
Antman wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 00:37


Jason Thompson:

Acoustic is okay, quite loud, which gives it more of a top 40 character.

Snare sounds MUFFLED. The rhythmic quality of the snares sound (compression?) is nicely shaped, but to me the EQ just makes it feel unnatural. It also sounds like the snare drum is actually going to be chewing up a lot of your head room, since you seem to have turned up the entire snare sound to make up for it's lack of presence due to a lack of certain higher frequencies.

I like the fade at the end.




Thank you for the crit Antman. No, it was all very dark. I need to get back in that room and try, try again. As far as it sounding unnatural... I don't know. The recorded drums sounded pretty good to me and that snare was killer. I took out a little bit of 300 "boing", added a few dB of snap around 2K and tad bit of sizzle with a wide Q around 7K. That's it. I'm not sure what you mean, I guess.

Everything pretty much sits where I intended as far as balnce (besides some bass and vocal tweaking). That snare "eating up the headroom" thing is a little trick I use called dynamics.  Rolling Eyes

Thanks again.

JT
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: ATOR on July 15, 2008, 02:28:09 pm
Just spent an hour on a revision with the reviews from you guys.

Apart from some taste things that some loved and others hated most of the crits made sense to me. These were the changes I made after reading the reviews:

- Fixed the acoustic, I had doubled the track with delay and pitchshift. I removed the pitchshift and decreased the send to a flanger.
- Toned down the drum compression, unmuffled the snare, increased attack to the kick and shortned the snare a bit with a transient designer.
- Tuned the bass, this made a big difference.
- Edited the timing of the Doyas and made most of them Oyas to get rid of the spitty Ds
- Turned down the guitar chuggs before the chorus.
- Split the leadvocal in two tracks and eqed both but still no cigar. I don't think me and the leadvocal, esp the loud parts, are gonna be friends. Maybe I should Melodyne it.

To my surprise everybody like the guitars. Normally I do all kinds of doubling, distorting, reamping and pitchshifting to try and get a big full sound. This time I decided to do almost nothing and expected to get my ass whooped for my guitarsound but that turned out way different.

Making distorted guitars sound good is one of the hardest things to do for me. They take up much of the frequency range and so you have to balance them with every other element in a mix. Making them big but not have them overpower the rest is a tedious job.

-----------------------------------

Once again I learned a lot from the IMP. There's nothing like having your mix scrutinized by fellow AEs and listening to different approaches of the same recording.

Thanx everybody Thumbs Up
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 15, 2008, 03:44:54 pm
Antman. Yes, I brightened up the snare. It sounds better.

I had fun pushing and pulling the vocal parts around too. Knowing, now, that it wasn't the artist's intention to have it that way I definitely hear how it could have worked, but was not appropriate. That being said, I still hear how it COULD have been right shifted.  Laughing
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 15, 2008, 03:46:51 pm
i just listened to clips of all the submission.  man there is a really broad spectrum of mixes.

seems like every one took the same  general approach.

i actually took some time today to mix the tune.  i put the mp3 on the PSW server but won't post a link.  i'm already breaking the rules enough just buy uploading it.

though i do think my mix will help some of you, might be worthy of a listen, totally up to you.

i'll delete it if ya'll think it's not fair of me to do.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 15, 2008, 03:53:01 pm
Hell no, J. That's NOT fair.

Take down!






Just give me about five minutes or so, first.  Laughing
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MoreSpaceEcho on July 15, 2008, 04:04:29 pm
i'd like to hear your mix, j.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: rankus on July 15, 2008, 06:10:46 pm


Nice job J!

Perhaps a tad too big on the bigs, but that would prolly get knocked down in mastering.

What I have noticed on this imp, and most of the other imps as well,  is that folks seem to be trying to make mixes that draw attention to the mix itself... big reverbs, impressive snare sounds etc.  I thought my mix was more in line with what this song should sound like... until I heard J's that is.   Keep it "clean" guys.

If you can hear the mix it is a bad mix IMO.

IMP 20: Hurry up!


 
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: ATOR on July 15, 2008, 06:44:25 pm
rankus wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 00:10

What I have noticed on this imp, and most of the other imps as well,  is that folks seem to be trying to make mixes that draw attention to the mix itself... big reverbs, impressive snare sounds etc.  I thought my mix was more in line with what this song should sound like... until I heard J's that is.   Keep it "clean" guys.

If you can hear the mix it is a bad mix IMO.

IMP 20: Hurry up!  


I agree that a mix should enhance the song.

In the best case scenario you have a great song and a great mix but I know plenty examples of great mixes of mediocre songs and even great mixes of terrible songs. All cases where the mix outshines the song. Some of these become hits because the mix is so great.

I can really enjoy a great mix and not even like the song, like a beautiful painting of an ugly object.


Maybe we're saying the same thing because when I listen to a great mix I don't hear the actual mix but just glorious sound.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: rankus on July 15, 2008, 06:50:41 pm


Well I'm thinking more like "great acting" as opposed to "over acting"

IMO There was no great acting on this imp  (including my own mix BTW) only over acting.



Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: NelsonL on July 15, 2008, 07:04:14 pm
j.hall wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 12:46

i just listened to clips of all the submission.  man there is a really broad spectrum of mixes.

seems like every one took the same  general approach.

i actually took some time today to mix the tune.  i put the mp3 on the PSW server but won't post a link.  i'm already breaking the rules enough just buy uploading it.

though i do think my mix will help some of you, might be worthy of a listen, totally up to you.

i'll delete it if ya'll think it's not fair of me to do.


Aw man, I'm bummed I didn't get mine up there.

I assume you (J dot) were too busy or didn't read that part of my email? I had my mix done early but was camping on the due date.

Anyway, I recuse myself lest an avalanche of exceptions burst forward.
Title: Re: Post 2 of 4
Post by: YZ on July 15, 2008, 11:33:46 pm
osumosan wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 10:45

 What do you mean by "bukkakke?" Do you mean sloppy and overdone?



I meant "in your face and exaggerated"; I felt drenched in it.
And both the original expression and my explanation above probably sound harsh, this is not the intention so here comes the 3rd attempt to characterize the bass sound:  too much low freqs and occupying a lot of space. Sorry if I offended you; I'll pay attention to being more civil in the next comments.

I apologize for not posting the comments for the remaining 14 mixes yet, I am quite pressed for time at the moment. I'll post them soon.

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 15, 2008, 11:39:15 pm
loudsongsinc wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 13:38



24) YZ - Bass a little round;  where’s the kick?;  too much snare bottom;  everything is a little too ambient;  Good BGVox EQ,verb and mix; like the arrangment;  the mix is closer to right than it sounds at first, little less verb, more kick and it is REAL good

Scott Bryant


Thanks for the kind comments.

I mixed on headphones, so that's probably why the kick is not quite right; most of the verb on the drums is from the original OHs and the treatment I gave the snare. I used just one reverb plug in this mix. Also, I did not use the snare top mic, only the bottom and OHs.


Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 15, 2008, 11:49:00 pm
J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 19:35


YZ – Weird room verb. IMO this needed to either be big or dry. Drums are very small. I’m starting to adjust from the last one. Yeah. There’s really nothing to support all of that cymbal, guitar, vocal stuff. The bass is carrying the whole rhythm it sounds like. Nice lead. Nice dynamics in this one. I think some 2 buss would have helped to seat this vocal in there. I like it up front, but it’s beginning to sound like a karaoke tape. 2 buss would gel this together, but don’t lose the dynamics. I like that you saw the necessity of  a fade out on this one and the reprise of the chorus was excellent. That was my second choice. I just like the false ending idea more. Opinions, options. Great idea. By the way… your vocal sounded out of place. Like it was a beat ahead or something. : )




Thanks for the comments.

I should have worked that Kick better.
There is bus compression...  up to 4dB in the loudest parts. It just does not pump neither crush, just adds a little control.


Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 15, 2008, 11:52:19 pm
osumosan wrote on Thu, 10 July 2008 14:54


YZ
Where's the beef i.e.: lowend? The tracks are left a little raw. The drums need to drive the track more.



Thanks for the comments.

Low end: I thought it sounded good that way; the kick could be better, thou.

The rawness: why change what I feel sounds right?

I used to mix with a lot of drums, I am trying to leave that addiction behind nowadays; drums exist to provide rhythm, not to dominate the song.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 16, 2008, 12:00:37 am
Chris Ilett wrote on Thu, 10 July 2008 15:42


YZ - Another one who seems to bury everything under the guitars when it gets loud. That lead guitar at the end sounds so out of place.
More later


Thanks for the comments.

The gtr sounds out of place time or level-wise?

Interesting how tastes vary.


Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 16, 2008, 12:07:34 am
ATOR wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 08:30


YZ
Nice full leadvox, this is the only vox of all mixes I really liked. Drums are a bit thin in comparison. Guitar solo is too loud. Good mix.



Thanks.

The drums were a bit 'ambient' to begin with, and I was going for a less processed mix; I decided to go with it instead of fighting it and concentrated on the vocal treatment.

The mix is similar in vein to what I would have done in the 1980s under the conditions I commented on my first post.

Amazing how much easier it was for me to get a good drum sound happening when working in analog. This 'DAW-with-headphones' thing is a whole new world.

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 16, 2008, 12:12:14 am
Patrik T wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 15:03


YZ:
Bass is too sloppy. The playing is far from the best but can be fixed somewhat. Tone of
guitars and vox are not anywhere similar. The difference makes things sound more like a
mix than a song...



Thanks for the comments.

care to elaborate on the gtr/vox tone part?


Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 16, 2008, 12:15:22 am
spoon wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 16:35


YZ - Nice verse vocals.  Kick is abit small.  Nice balance in general.  Like the long fade out.



Thanks.

Yeah, the kick could have been better. my bad.

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on July 16, 2008, 06:35:30 am
rankus wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 18:50



Well I'm thinking more like "great acting" as opposed to "over acting"

IMO There was no great acting on this imp  (including my own mix BTW) only over acting.






I feel a mix should represent the song, not present itself as a separate identity.

With the exception of a few, these IMP mixes are overdone.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 16, 2008, 08:29:09 am
Fiasco wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 07:35

rankus wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 18:50



IMO There was no great acting on this imp  (including my own mix BTW) only over acting.


I feel a mix should represent the song, not present itself as a separate identity.

With the exception of a few, these IMP mixes are overdone.



While I agree with with both about what happened in general terms on this IMP, I disagree about my mix; I do not feel I've overdone anything...
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 16, 2008, 10:27:26 am
NelsonL wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 18:04



I assume you (J dot) were too busy or didn't read that part of my email? I had my mix done early but was camping on the due date.




OH MAN.  1 part forgot, one part too busy.  i even had the track ready to upload for you.

SORRY!!!!

we'll start another one really soon.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 16, 2008, 10:33:13 am
YZ wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 07:29



While I agree with with both about what happened in general terms on this IMP, I disagree about my mix; I do not feel I've overdone anything...



i have such little time to review all these, but i'll give you my thoughts on your mix.

indeed i think your mix is NOT overdone?  in fact, i would say it's very underdone.

everything except the drums sound pretty good.  but drums are SO key to a killer mix.

that verb on the acoustic guitar needs to have a LPF on it to get rid of that splashy top end that makes it sound really digital.  i think all the BGV's could stand a dose of "vibe" but that's just personal taste.

the question is, which is worse?  underdone or overdone?

if i were answering the question i'd say "both"
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: YZ on July 16, 2008, 11:01:20 am
j.hall wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 11:33

YZ wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 07:29



While I agree with with both about what happened in general terms on this IMP, I disagree about my mix; I do not feel I've overdone anything...



i have such little time to review all these, but i'll give you my thoughts on your mix.

indeed i think your mix is NOT overdone?  in fact, i would say it's very underdone.

everything except the drums sound pretty good.  but drums are SO key to a killer mix.

that verb on the acoustic guitar needs to have a LPF on it to get rid of that splashy top end that makes it sound really digital.  i think all the BGV's could stand a dose of "vibe" but that's just personal taste.

the question is, which is worse?  underdone or overdone?

if i were answering the question i'd say "both"


Thanks so much for your comments.

They actually match my own perception of my mix.

My post was more in the vein of "hey, I did not think I overmixed, much on the contrary".

And you're right, a mix has to be 'done', not over or under.

Looking forward to the next IMP!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 16, 2008, 11:59:43 am
J's mix is actually really good.  Evil or Very Mad

Loads of energy, great sound. Personal preference on a couple of things:

Delay on on of the guitars - didn't like it.

Guitars panned a little too wide for my liking.

As a whole, it really worked.

J - my kick was ok in my opinion, but I couldn't quite get that sound you did (which is what I was aiming for). I had some problems with around 500 - 1K (from memory). Couldn't get the balance.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 16, 2008, 12:15:22 pm
Chris Ilett wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 10:59



J - my kick was ok in my opinion, but I couldn't quite get that sound you did (which is what I was aiming for). I had some problems with around 500 - 1K (from memory). Couldn't get the balance.


you and YZ both did the same move holding the drums out.  i think that makes a simple rock song like this take WAY too long to get moving.

your bass guitar is way too big. guitars are getting swallowed up in it.

that verb your using is all digital sounding.  roll off the top end to get rip of that splashiness

the snare has a great "snare" tone, but lacks power.  back off the bottom mic and work that top mic more.  i had to boost the snot out of the top end of the top mic to get it working well.

your vocal balances are off.  the BGV's come in louder then the lead.  IMO, you never want that to happen.  they can match the lead, but should not dominate.

the bridge arrangement is a good idea, i'd just bring the drums in earlier and ditch the arena rock kick.  takes are from the forward power of the song.

your kick is decent, but the bass is just killing your mix.

you need to compress the vocals more.  the chorus is just out of control.

i'd EQ (in a really odd way) all those "do ya's" to give them some vibe.  right now they just sit there kinda muddy sounding and lifeless.


Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 16, 2008, 12:48:48 pm
Yeah I was trying out a multiband compressor, and ended up piling everything into a bunch of buss compressors/reverbs.

This is really good for me, as apart from anything else - I don't know my monitors yet. Or my room. Or what I'm doing. Or...  Surprised

After hearing your backing vox, and a couple of other guys, I can see I let them run riot, and I guess I let that bass dump all over the mix.

Thanks for the feedback
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 16, 2008, 12:59:39 pm
J.

Your mix definitely has the "J.Hall" print on it.

You had to have used a sample on the kick, huh? Not only was that big and solid, but it didn't have the little "double taps" from the beater. I put a gate on mine, but that one sounds great. For my taste, the snare was too even for me. I like the snare hitting a little above everything on this one. That's your drum buss sound, though and it does sound nice, even, and under control. Why did everybody decide on the Depeche Mode "Personal Jesus" delayed guitar?

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 16, 2008, 01:21:21 pm
J-Texas wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 11:59

J.

Your mix definitely has the "J.Hall" print on it.



hard for me to avoid.....in fact, it's literally IMPOSSIBLE.

Quote:


You had to have used a sample on the kick, huh? Not only was that big and solid, but it didn't have the little "double taps" from the beater. I put a gate on mine, but that one sounds great.



um, it's safe to say that EVERY mix you ever hear of mine has a replaced or blended  kick sample.  and i did do this mix............

Quote:


For my taste, the snare was too even for me. I like the snare hitting a little above everything on this one.



well, there's no accounting for taste!

hitting above?  you mean my snare (which is not a sample, nor did i blend a sample) is not loud enough?????  surely you aren't serious.....

Quote:


That's your drum buss sound, though and it does sound nice, even, and under control.



not sure what my "drum buss" is.  i don't sub the drums, never have, can't see myself doing either.

nice, even, and under control.......well, if you want your mix to have any semblance of balance, you'll have to have that list.  although, "nice" is something i try to avoid.  i actually go for "aggressive", even and under control.

Quote:


Why did everybody decide on the Depeche Mode "Personal Jesus" delayed guitar?



if the shoe fits........

my mentor once said, "cliche exists for a reason........don't always fight cliche, it's already been accepted by the market"

it's not my job to re-invent the wheel.  nor is it my job to deal out any "surprises" from the mix.  it's the band's job to deal out all the "surprises" and it is my job to capitalize on what the band does.

this was a simple rock tune.  a throw back rock tune.  i gave it a "modern" feel and honored it's motivations.  oddly enough, my mix is very similar to Jim's which i had not heard till after mine was finished.

only reason i used delay on that guitar part was i thought the tone was pretty boring, and i wanted to give the part a more expansive feel.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 16, 2008, 01:54:13 pm
As far as the snare goes... no, it didn't hit hard enough for me. It's a part of your compression taste (there's no accounting for taste, right?) I would have liked more peaks, that were wrangled in by the compression. This song, IMO, sounded cool with it snappy and over everything else. Is yours aggressive, well yes, of course. It doesn't always sit out front, which is where I liked it on this song.

Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 16, 2008, 02:07:53 pm
J-Texas wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 12:54

 It doesn't always sit out front, which is where I liked it on this song.





you can blame the drummer for that, or me for deciding to not use a sample.

my snare has no impact?

is your control room scooped out in the mids?
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 16, 2008, 02:17:31 pm
j-texas......

you mix is very dark.  problem is, the vocal is close to bright enough.  so mastering will make your vocal paper thin just to get the music where it needs to be.

the only reason your snare has more punch then mine is that the top end of mine is present and accounted for.  your kick is getting swallowed up in that giant low mid mess of a bass guitar.

guitars have no bite

i won't even comment on the vocal move.

this mix sounds like i have my ear plugs in (the cheap foam ones)


Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 16, 2008, 02:19:37 pm
Brodie, check it.

I didn't say it didn't have impact. I would just like it louder ok?  Twisted Evil

As far as my room? I'm in a bedroom with 703 hanging on the wall, listening on NS10s. How much more fucked up could it be? Don't answer that... you've heard all of my previous IMPs.

Serously though. The speakers are right in my face and I listened for all of my crits on my T20s. I know how they act.

Mr. J.

You're not above criticism are you?  Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 16, 2008, 02:21:21 pm
j.hall wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 13:17

j-texas......

you mix is very dark.  problem is, the vocal is close to bright enough.  so mastering will make your vocal paper thin just to get the music where it needs to be.

the only reason your snare has more punch then mine is that the top end of mine is present and accounted for.  your kick is getting swallowed up in that giant low mid mess of a bass guitar.

guitars have no bite

i won't even comment on the vocal move.

this mix sounds like i have my ear plugs in (the cheap foam ones)





Noted. Stored. Processed. Agreed.  
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 16, 2008, 02:21:29 pm
J-Texas wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 13:19



You're not above criticism are you?  Rolling Eyes


not even close.  i'm also not below disagreeing.


Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 16, 2008, 02:23:14 pm
j.hall wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 13:21

J-Texas wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 13:19



You're not above criticism are you?  Rolling Eyes


not even close.  i'm also not below disagreeing.





Laughing  Neither am I man!
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on July 16, 2008, 02:32:42 pm
YZ wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 08:29

Fiasco wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 07:35

rankus wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 18:50



IMO There was no great acting on this imp  (including my own mix BTW) only over acting.


I feel a mix should represent the song, not present itself as a separate identity.

With the exception of a few, these IMP mixes are overdone.



While I agree with with both about what happened in general terms on this IMP, I disagree about my mix; I do not feel I've overdone anything...



Perhaps you were one of the few. Razz
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 16, 2008, 02:34:30 pm
J-Texas wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 13:23



Laughing  Neither am I man!


that is abundantly clear in this thread alone.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J.Nickel on July 16, 2008, 02:35:05 pm
J-Texas wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 00:35


J.NICKEL – That’s cool on the acoustic. That f’ing cymbal thing is like someone kicking me in the nuts and spitting in my face. A little de-essing on the vox. Good drum compression. I like this as a dark mix. Bass guitar gets kind of honky once in awhile. You left it dull. I like that. That’s what I was going for too. Nice BGV’s. This would open up very awesome with a shelf around 12k and up I think. Good mids.









Thank´s for all your comments.
When I review my Mix now, it´s a bit honky I admit. I had like two hours  and wanted to ride the Lead vox, but I had only one try . and that is why it got buried later in the Song.I didn´t use a deesser on the Lead vox-
I simply forgot the "noodling" lead guitar but I still don´t miss it.
I would have done some bass guitar editing if i had the time.
Looking forward to the next imp.

JNickel


Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on July 16, 2008, 02:45:38 pm
j.hall wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 13:34

J-Texas wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 13:23



Laughing  Neither am I man!


that is abundantly clear in this thread alone.


I miss Vlad. No matter how one came across, you didn't really notice it. Kind of like Studiojimi.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: NelsonL on July 16, 2008, 02:54:12 pm
j.hall wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 07:27

NelsonL wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 18:04



I assume you (J dot) were too busy or didn't read that part of my email? I had my mix done early but was camping on the due date.




OH MAN.  1 part forgot, one part too busy.  i even had the track ready to upload for you.

SORRY!!!!

we'll start another one really soon.


No worries my brother.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 16, 2008, 04:08:24 pm
I love this forum.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: MoreSpaceEcho on July 16, 2008, 05:01:26 pm
Fiasco wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 19:32

YZ wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 08:29



While I agree with with both about what happened in general terms on this IMP, I disagree about my mix; I do not feel I've overdone anything...



Perhaps you were one of the few. Razz



i would agree that most of the mixes were overdone, in some form or another. i liked yz's though!
Title: Re: Post 2 of 4
Post by: osumosan on July 17, 2008, 04:36:05 pm
YZ wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 23:33

osumosan wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 10:45

 What do you mean by "bukkakke?" Do you mean sloppy and overdone?



I meant "in your face and exaggerated"; I felt drenched in it.
And both the original expression and my explanation above probably sound harsh, this is not the intention so here comes the 3rd attempt to characterize the bass sound:  too much low freqs and occupying a lot of space. Sorry if I offended you; I'll pay attention to being more civil in the next comments.


Tell me what about my response makes you think I was offended. You don't need to apologize for your opinion. I think I and most people here would have you forego being civil and just come out and say what you think.

No?
Title: Re: Post 2 of 4
Post by: YZ on July 17, 2008, 08:09:40 pm
osumosan wrote on Thu, 17 July 2008 17:36

YZ wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 23:33

osumosan wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 10:45

 What do you mean by "bukkakke?" Do you mean sloppy and overdone?



I meant "in your face and exaggerated"; I felt drenched in it.
And both the original expression and my explanation above probably sound harsh, this is not the intention so here comes the 3rd attempt to characterize the bass sound:  too much low freqs and occupying a lot of space. Sorry if I offended you; I'll pay attention to being more civil in the next comments.


Tell me what about my response makes you think I was offended. You don't need to apologize for your opinion. I think I and most people here would have you forego being civil and just come out and say what you think.

No?


osumosan,

I've already told what I think of your mix.

3 times.

And I prefer to err in the side of caution than the opposite: risk offending when that was not the intention.

I'm sorry to have thought I had offended you when you were not.

I hope you did not get offended by that...  Cool

And _I_ would prefer people to be civil when voicing their opinions, when I want the opposite there are a couple of other fora that can fill that need very well.
Title: Re: Post 2 of 4
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 17, 2008, 08:44:01 pm
YZ, where are you from?
Title: Re: Post 2 of 4
Post by: YZ on July 17, 2008, 09:25:58 pm
Chris Ilett wrote on Thu, 17 July 2008 21:44

YZ, where are you from?


S
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: sstillwell on July 17, 2008, 10:37:01 pm
I'll say this: being civil and saying what you think are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

"Make your words soft and tender, lest you should later be obliged to eat them."

Scott
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: maxim on July 17, 2008, 10:37:48 pm
nice...
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: grantis on July 18, 2008, 08:04:02 am
sstillwell wrote on Thu, 17 July 2008 21:37

I'll say this: being civil and saying what you think are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

"Make your words soft and tender, lest you should later be obliged to eat them."

Scott


Ohhhh, I like that.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: jdier on July 18, 2008, 08:12:17 am
I have been on the road and still owe some people some reviews and have yet to hear J.s

Regarding the snare, when the drummer came in my exact direction was that I wanted it to sound (and this may sound strange) like a funky drummer who was playing in a bit of a held back manor.  Kind of like a city kid brought up on Rap and Funk playing in a Marine band or Church Band....  Groove it but keep it steady... make it sound like you are trying to sneak hits and fills in... then on the chorus, let er rip.  

I think that lead to the held back snare performance, which I actually like.

BTW, while on the road I had a chance to see Lucero and Glossary...  I have been into Glossary for a while (new album free at their site: www.glossary.us) but Lucero was new to me.

Holy shit.  People say Bruce Springsteen... I think more like the replacements with Bruces son singing...  Either way, check out their new album Rebels, Rogues & Sworn Brothers.  Really a great collection of heartfelt songs, and the show was just incredible.

Someone here turned me on to Jets from Brazil, and to tie this back in, Lucero covered a Jawbreaker song in their set... Kiss the Bottle I think.

Hope to wrap my reviews over the weekend.

Jim
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 18, 2008, 10:11:31 am
Chris Ilett wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 15:08

I love this forum.


me too!

BTW, offending people seems inevitable on the internet.  HOWEVER, i don't think we should fault someone for attempting not too.  seems pretty honorable to me.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 18, 2008, 12:14:02 pm
Totally. Not sure if that was aimed at me or not, but I just thought a couple of these guys were't quite understanding each other. It's ok, I'm not crying.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 18, 2008, 02:34:59 pm
it was aimed at every one.  thus far no one is out of line here.

ousman requested honesty, and YZ just stated that he didn't want to offend anyone.

i respect both!  that's all i was getting at.
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: Chris Ilett on July 18, 2008, 03:40:25 pm
Then you are forgiven  
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: slash5969 on July 18, 2008, 03:43:18 pm
j.hall wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 12:21


um, it's safe to say that EVERY mix you ever hear of mine has a replaced or blended  kick sample...



Pardon my ignorance, but this is something I want to learn about. How exactly does one replace a kick drum with a sample? Is it a process of cutting and pasting on each and every drum hit? Is there software that automates the process? It sounds like time-consuming, tedious work to accomplish manually. Am I missing something simple here?
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: j.hall on July 18, 2008, 04:25:17 pm
sound replacer

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&itemid=10 59

Drumagog

http://www.drumagog.com/info.htm

aptrigga

http://www.apulsoft.ch/aptrigga/

even with the software it's tedious work.

if you want your kick to be right on top of the music and never move, you have to use a sample.  and as far as total replacement goes, kick is the easiest to get away with.

i use snare samples almost every mix, but they are blended with the recorded snare.

i'll cymbals from time to time and they too are supporting the recorded material.

98% of the time my mix has a 100% replaced kick drum.

yes it's a pain in the butt, that's why i call this a job.......
Title: Re: imp19 discussion
Post by: NelsonL on July 19, 2008, 01:30:19 pm
It's especially tedious on metal records with insanely fast double bass crap.

I've been through this recently.