R/E/P Community

R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => R/E/P Saloon => Topic started by: J.J. Blair on February 06, 2008, 02:16:55 am

Title: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 06, 2008, 02:16:55 am
Seriously.  The GOP base is going to be very blas
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 06, 2008, 05:21:44 am
Yeah, but their numbers are way down.. Democrats will show up in overwhelming numbers this time.. Some Republicans will feel they are above showing up this time.. I think Clinton and Obama both could win with record numbers.

I'm saying that Clinton will win in a land slide like we've never seen.. So could Obama.

Edit: I thought I might ad that many so called conservatives have stated repeatedly over the last week that they would be better off letting the Democratic party win so they can have time to rebuild their INSANE neo-con party.. They are running out of Cool aide drinkers at this point.

This means that life has slapped them up side their head, {the cool aide drinkers I mean} and this thin layer of "Moral Values" they've been talked into believing they have isn't as important to them as all the body bags coming in from Iraq and an economy that's about to kick their ass, bad. Many of the people who blindly supported the neo-con big business ultra right wing evangelical movement are discovering that it's a bunch of bull shit. They suddenly have real things to deal with, instead of simply being afraid of "Liberal Thinking" ..

I just don't see how the republican party can win.. ALL they are saying is "THESE BAD BROWN PEOPLE WANT TO KILL US.." It's simply not working this time. Really, I've seen the debates and read many position papers from the right.. I'm not just being a prick. They really have nothing to say, at ALL. I'm amazed.


My 2 cents..

Ivan................
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Larrchild on February 06, 2008, 06:39:04 am
You are right, JJ. Hillary will get the GOP to the polls in wheelchairs and walkers. I'm Baracking Obama. He might be ready on day 7, but it will take a week to get the stink out of that White House anyway.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 06, 2008, 11:29:27 am
Dems are "blessed" with two candidates they find very strong (I've already stated my views on this).  Their problem is deciding between Clinton and Obama.  The Republicans hate each and every one of their candidates.  Eats fun to watch them eat their own.

Because the Republican Party hates John McCain, it is very likely the delegates will abandon him in favor of Romney.  Romney has so many strikes against him it will be hard to make a serious run.

Remember the REPUBLICAN mantra: Republicans win only when fewer people come to vote.  That's why they work so hard to disenfranchise voters.

If Hilary runs, this time she'll be teflon.  Everything and anything they could throw at her has been done and she's come through it all.  I'm not worried about Republicans rising from the dead to defeat Hilary.

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: ssltech on February 07, 2008, 10:05:56 am
Today I switched to AM talk radio for the drive in to work. -Every so often I do this to get the view from the 'other side' as it were. -Of course it's pledge-drive week on our local NPR station, and -since we're already paid-up for the year- it kinda bugs me, so it's a good time to listen to AM and miss less 'news'.

Shocked Holy fizzing, festering rancor, Batman!!! Shocked

-And yes, I AM a little worried that the Republicans can unite against a common foe. -The talk radio presenter phrased it thus to one caller:

'If the question is what Republican candidate would I like in the white house, the answer is Mitt Romney over John McCain by a HUGE margin. -If the question is Do I fear a Clinton presidency over a McCain Presidency, I am TERRIFIED of a Clinton presidency, and would do everything I can to prevent one.'

My unvoiced (thus far) self-formed impressions are almost entirely in line with JJ's, and I formed them from listening to a couple of ex-Marine (die-hard Republican) band mates chatting over beers every sunday evening after rehearsal, for th elast couple of years. -NOTHING will motivate them to get behind a single candidate more than stopping Hillary, and they've clinked glasses and said "Amen to that, Brutha" with great vigor and determination.

Keith
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jay Kadis on February 07, 2008, 10:15:01 am
On the other hand, perhaps the average voter has had enough of the Republican domination of Washington and will be willing to put ANYONE else in the White House.  

Big mouths don't necessarily translate into big votes.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: PRobb on February 07, 2008, 02:48:26 pm
I think Hillary can win, but the landslide possibilities are with Obama. If Hillary runs, a whole lot of moderates and independents are McCain's by default so he can work to shore up the right wing base. If it's Obama, the whole center is in play. That leaves McCain with a very tough choice.  The harder he plays for the center the more he alienates the right, and vice versa. He could easily try to split the difference and lose both.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jay Kadis on February 07, 2008, 03:17:46 pm
Suppose McCain teams up with Condolleeza.  That would level the playing field, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: ssltech on February 07, 2008, 03:54:06 pm
Holy frack!!!

So the radio was still tuned to AM talk radio when I drove to get a munch just after noon... Right when it was being reported Romney announced he was pulling out.

All they could do was talk about how this gives the party a chance to unite against Hillary...

Keith
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 07, 2008, 04:45:40 pm
guys, I will be shot for this (or JJ takes a plane with his submixing-desk shotgun and have a short visit at my house) but your whole system has some problems..

it doesn't matter who will become the next president... remember the dead-presidents, that wanted to change something.

JJ.. it's not hillary. the problem is way deeper.. but you don't see the big picture because you are living in the US.

this is not my problem, but I'm glad I'm out of this shit. it looks more like carneval or a bad hollywood-movie rather than a serious election.


cheers



some additionals:
did you ever thought about who is borrowing the US money for their depth? did you ever thought about who earns the interest of this money?
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 07, 2008, 06:14:54 pm
I agree the election system is seriously flawed.  What I don't understand is this: An architect, a doctor, a civil engineer, a beautician all have to take tests in order to receive a license.  Yet any fool can run for president.  We don't give that person an exam to see how qualified they might be.  There is nothing but personality, empty promises and a political machine.  There's something wrong here.

Judging by McCain's recent appearance in front of the Republican base he is not loved in the least.  He was repeatedly boo'd during his speech.

It could well be that at the Republican convention McCain will be cast aside for Romney, whom the Republicans love.

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 07, 2008, 07:21:01 pm
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Thu, 07 February 2008 16:45

guys, I will be shot for this (or JJ takes a plane with his submixing-desk shotgun and have a short visit at my house) but your whole system has some problems..

it doesn't matter who will become the next president... remember the dead-presidents, that wanted to change something.

JJ.. it's not hillary. the problem is way deeper.. but you don't see the big picture because you are living in the US.

this is not my problem, but I'm glad I'm out of this shit. it looks more like carneval or a bad hollywood-movie rather than a serious election.


cheers



some additionals:
did you ever thought about who is borrowing the US money for their depth? did you ever thought about who earns the interest of this money?



Why do you consistently insist that we don't understand what we are dealing with over here?? We know what the problems are, thank you very much.. While I value your opinion to some extent, I think you underestimate how huge this place is and how many people we are talking about.. People with different points of view and different reasons for pushing one way or another.. Yeah, it's flawed big time.. But it is also like nothing before in the history of the world.. You can sit in your arm chair all you want without being stuck in the middle of all this madness and pretend you see the problems that we can't see... However,, you are starting to sound like GWB to me.. ONLY YOU can see the truth..

I'll ad that anyone who claims that 'it doesn't matter who the next president is', is either not paying attention, OR, isn't smart enough. Period.. I'm sick of it. So, I'll say it.. What you typed above is plain old fucking stupid..

It's really pretty amazing..

Ivan...................
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 07, 2008, 07:26:43 pm
John Ivan wrote on Thu, 07 February 2008 16:21

However,, you are starting to sound like GWB to me.. ONLY YOU can see the truth..



oooooo i can't stand people like that . . .
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: PRobb on February 07, 2008, 07:51:15 pm
John Ivan wrote on Thu, 07 February 2008 19:21


cheers

I'll ad that anyone who claims that 'it doesn't matter who the next president is', is either not paying attention, OR, isn't smart enough. Period.. I'm sick of it. So, I'll say it.. What you typed above is plain old fucking stupid..

It's really pretty amazing..

Ivan...................

Amen to that. To say that neither side is what you really want is one thing. To say they're both flawed is stating the obvious. To say there's no difference is just silly. We're not just electing a president, we're choosing a whole administration, and parties do matter. A Democratic president means a Democratic Attorney General, a Democratic EPA, a Democratic Dep't of Education and on down the line. And, most important, it will affect the composition of the SUpreme Court.

And George- If you think it doesn't matter to you, you're kidding yourself.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 07, 2008, 08:50:48 pm
Yeah, George.  I know who we owe our debt to.  It's mostly owned by China and Arabs.  But, hey ... at least we didn't do business with Hitler to keep him from invading our country.

And what our national debt has to do with who we elect to form our next four years of foreign policy, seating supreme court justices, and leading this nation, well you have me there.

Cheers, right back at ya.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 08, 2008, 02:14:12 am
JP Morgan and the other old school bankers are lending the US money from the nationalbank and earns the interest.

Ivan,
I am very sorry that you feel offended by idiot George.

big picture:
I question your electionsystem, I question the guys that you have to vote for, I question the whole system. It makes me angry, that the US has one of the most fukked up economical, medical, politicalsystems and want to act like an idol, bringing peace and freedom to other countrys.

small picture:
concerning the election I hear just NAMES everyday. Big tuesday.. people with hats, waving a small flag, the guy in the front says: "WE WILL CHANGE SOMETHING HERE.. ".. everyone is yelling and laughing. no solutions, NOT ONE FUKKIN step forward.

Ivan, are you reacting to Mr. Bush speak about cutting down healthcare more, and investing it into weapons? ARE YOU protesting?  Are you writing a letter? are you flooding your local radiostation with emails?
I dont see a reaction.. that is what makes me feel sad about such big country.

I might be an assozial asshole, my english might be suck ass but I will constantly try to find out, why you guys can easy sit in a chair and press record everyday without feelinG very SICk..

when I found out, I will shut up.


Quote:

We're not just electing a president, we're choosing a whole administration, and parties do matter. A Democratic president means a Democratic Attorney General, a Democratic EPA, a Democratic Dep't of Education and on down the line. And, most important, it will affect the composition of the SUpreme Court.

And George- If you think it doesn't matter to you, you're kidding yourself.


actually with your current votingsystem, the candidates, it doesnt matter very much. you vote for a candidate because he is PRO or CON something. NO CANDIDATE HAS A SOLUTION. go check it yourself. candidates telling people that they are pro or contra abortion, pro or contra iraque.
beeing pro or contra something is not politics, a 5 year old can tell you that he is pro chocolate and contra spinach.

I hope that clears up my point of view.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: danickstr on February 08, 2008, 02:21:56 am
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 02:14

want to act like an idol, bringing peace and freedom to other countrys.




We don't act like an idol, we actually have helped keep world peace for a century.  I would even say that without the US, most tiny countries would be part of a bigger communist/fascist entity.

Would they be better off, I can't say.  But being invaded and overtaken has to suck.  Even a rich little defenseless country like Switzerland would have to do some real groveling.  And then some ankle-grabbing, and finally get taken over anyway.

If you are a big fat little lamb, I don't think that explaining to a hungry Tiger that you are neutral will work well.  Be glad that the dysfunctional, obnoxious shepherd is standing there with his shotgun.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 08, 2008, 04:48:11 am
Quote:

It makes me angry, that the US has one of the most fukked up economical, medical, politicalsystems...


George, seriously ... how much time have you spent in the US?  

If you think you know so much about us, explain in three sentences or less what our three branches of government are, and what the separation of powers is.  Tell me the difference between the Senate and the House of Representatives.  

If you can't, then stop talking out of your ass, thinking you know anything about the way our government or political process functions.  

And I don't know what comic book you are getting your information from, but JP Morgan is not lending us money.  They act as one of the brokers for the 57% of the debt that is owned publicly.  It just so happens that the majority of that debt is being sold to Arab nations, and China.  The other 43% is held in bonds.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 08, 2008, 06:15:46 am
Quote:

 JP Morgan is not lending us money. They act as one of the brokers for the 57% of the debt that is owned publicly. It just so happens that the majority of that debt is being sold to Arab nations, and China. The other 43% is held in bonds


and so one must consider how JP Morgan is and has been so closely tied to government spending.

it was JP Morgan that devised the scare which made people turn up at banks in the early 1900's and demand all their money SO THAT the FED reserve laws could be introduced..

and so JP morgan is also INDIRECTLY involved in the stock market crash a few years later which led the USA into a poverty-stricken recession in the 30's..

the fed reserve (and all others like it) are responsible for inflation...

the whole mechanism does NOT regulate the value of money it ONLY creates inflation..

this is not me speaking here, it's HISTORY speaking..

Has anyone noticed how Culture, Manufacturing etc. CHANGED in 1970?

the wars which were financed in the 50's and 60's had to be payed up so the gov got rid of the Gold standard and set inflation on an EVER-RISING trend which is still going on today


JP morgan (and others like them) are NOT DIRECTLY involved in spending but they do have a huge influence on political events because they FACILITATE government spending through their indirect influence..

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 08, 2008, 06:56:50 am
http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/whofed.html

this is an interesting read
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 08, 2008, 07:14:11 am
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 11:56

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/whofed.html

this is an interesting read


Interesting.. but basically bollocks

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3616/flaherty5.h tml

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 08, 2008, 07:21:01 am
George, I only said that what you typed was stupid, I'm not accusing you of being stupid.. It is clear to me though, that you are uninformed to some extent..

It really does matter who we elect George. That's the whole point.. We simply would NOT be in the mess we are in now if we would have voted for Gore.. The same could be said about Kerry..{ different, smaller messes? Yeah. probably so but we can make our way out of those.}

There really are people here who want the best for their fellow Americans AND the rest of the world.. There are people running for President who understand that a National health care system, for instance, would be GOOD for our Country. They don't care that certain special interest corporations don't like it.What concerns them is the welfare of the people.. They understand that by making as many lives  as possible better they make their lives better..

There are people running for President who have a lot of Money.. They are willing to give up some of this Money in the way of Taxes to make our economy better and to help make sure our People are healthier. Even though some people don't like it, there is a thing called the distribution of wealth. Getting this right so we don't have war vets living out in the cold LOOKS easy.. But it's not easy because some people don't care about anything other than their portfolio. This is a HUGE place with a lot of lazy uninformed people who mean well but don't know much..

There are people here who want to use alternative energy sources and want the Government to lead the way in this effort.. They know it will be painful for a while to make this happen but understand that the world will be a better place if we do this..

There are people here who want to make a very very fine education for our children and under educated adults a National Priority so we can continue to grow as people and share and learn from the rest of the world because a healthy and robust exchange of ideas makes war less likely and,, well,, smart is GOOD.

I could go on and on.. The choice {in very simple terms} is either to vote for people who care only about themselves, OR, to vote for people who understand that we really do need one another and the welfare of our fellow man is as important as our own..

Convincing undereducated, selfish, lazy Americans who have it made to vote for good people is A HUGE TASK.. { the right wing in this country do NOT LIKE genuinely smart people. Period} In part, this is because we have it easy here.. People are not in the habit of thinking about the welfare of other people here because we don't really have to suffer very much.. Americans have it made. We are young. We have been handed HUGE power and we are barely old enough to tie our shoes.

What we are trying to do here is NOT an easy thing at all.. Many people predicted that we would fail.. Many thought we would not make it 50 years after our revolution. There's good reason for this.. Running a republic/democracy this size, with this system is touchy stuff. It's fragile as hell and we need to be a lot more careful about who we choose to run the ship.. And we need to take care when forming relationships, Government to Business.

I hope we learned our lesson over the last 8 years because one more set of dumb asses like these ass clowns in the executive branch, could ruin us for good..Yes, it's that serious. But getting the average American to understand this is NOT easy..


Rant over.......

Ivan...................
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 08, 2008, 07:51:04 am
Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 06:14

MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 11:56

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/whofed.html

this is an interesting read


Interesting.. but basically bollocks

 http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3616/flaherty5.h tml



Quote:


Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin
Lazard Brothers Banks of Paris
Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy
Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam
Lehman Brothers of New York
Kuhn, Loeb Bank of New York
Chase Manhatten Bank
Goldman, Sachs of New York.


Jon, as usual you use logic but logic only works 100% when you have ALL the data..

neither you or I have all the info.. perhaps SOME people who are working closely with the major shareholders (from YOUR link) have a BETTER idea of how decisions are ACTUALLY taken in regards to the generation of money and debt...

but you and I cannot use logic, we can only interpret because we do not know what's going on..


BUT we DO know that the prime players in the FED reserve game are old-world bankers

we DO know that the majority of the major wars including WWII were MADE POSSIBLE by the people in the above organizations and the like..

we DO know that the constitution strictly forbids Reserve Banking because it's OBVIOUS implications in regards to inflation.

we DO know that ever since america got off the gold standard there has been rising inflation with NO actual REGULATION OF THE VALUE OF MONEY.


Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 08, 2008, 08:01:23 am
Quote:

There really are people here who want the best for their fellow Americans AND the rest of the world.. There are people running for President who understand that a National health care system, for instance, would be GOOD for our Country. They don't care that certain special interest corporations don't like it.What concerns them is the welfare of the people.. They understand that by making as many lives as possible better they make their lives better..



John, if money weren't involved I would agree with you.

unfortunately it is, and there will be a lot of very HAPPY corporations involved in any government-controlled health-care system..

the government will take more money from the citizens to pay for the healthcare, it will take a part of that money to pay the people who organize the heath-care system, another part will be given to corporations which will manufacture the goods once they get contracts from the governments, another part will go into phantom offices which are put there to earn a bit off money etc. etc..

if you look at the MAJOR supporters of politicians in terms of cash, you will see much corporate influence..

there is nothing more that the corporate crowd would love to see than a government which ASSURES them work-contracts with 'flexible' terms..

in a free market society the only way to regulate prices and quality successfully is through OPEN COMPETITION .


if people weren't so poor they could take care of themselves.

a socialist government in america would only put the corporations at the helm of the government..

their only desire is to provide permanent services to be paid for with the IMMENSE and UNLIMITED pool of money which comes from taxation.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 08, 2008, 08:55:21 am
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:51

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 06:14

MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 11:56

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/whofed.html

this is an interesting read


Interesting.. but basically bollocks

   http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3616/flaherty5.h tml



Quote:


Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin
Lazard Brothers Banks of Paris
Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy
Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam
Lehman Brothers of New York
Kuhn, Loeb Bank of New York
Chase Manhatten Bank
Goldman, Sachs of New York.



Not sure why you quoted that list, since the next bit is where the guy shows that these are NOT shareholders in the New York Federal Reserve Bank, despite the claims of the original author of the list
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:51


Jon, as usual you use logic but logic only works 100% when you have ALL the data..


Logic always works better than guesses and dogma.
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:51


neither you or I have all the info.. perhaps SOME people who are working closely with the major shareholders (from YOUR link) have a BETTER idea of how decisions are ACTUALLY taken in regards to the generation of money and debt...


If you actually READ the link you'll find that those in the list are NOT shareholders.
They CANNOT be, all the shareholders in the Federal Reserve Banks are  the member banks... in other words US Banks, not only that but the size of their shareholding is set by the rules, not by how much they want to buy, and in addition the size of the shareholding ONLY affects the amount they have to put ib and the fixed dividends they receive, it does not affect their power... in this respect the Reserve banks are more like a cooperative... one bank, one vote, no matter how many shares they own.
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:51

but you and I cannot use logic, we can only interpret because we do not know what's going on..


I'm quite aware that you cannot use logic, but that doesn't mean it can't be used. Logic is what should be used to interpret the information available.

MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:51


BUT we DO know that the prime players in the FED reserve game are old-world bankers


NO WE BLOODY WELL DON'T!!!

Have you learned NOTHING about how the system works?

I don't mean repeating what you see on poorly informed conspiracy sites, but  actually looked into what the laws and rules are regarding how the Federal Reserve is owned and operated?

Obviously not.

MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:51


we DO know that the majority of the major wars including WWII were MADE POSSIBLE by the people in the above organizations and the like..


Like governments have ever NEEDED banks to make war.
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:51


we DO know that the constitution strictly forbids Reserve Banking because it's OBVIOUS implications in regards to inflation.


WHERE does it forbid it?
It doesn't.
There is nothing which forbids Fractional Reserve banking, nor is there anything that forbids central banks.
Nor, is there anything that forbids the federal government from instigating fiat money.
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:51


we DO know that ever since america got off the gold standard there has been rising inflation with NO actual REGULATION OF THE VALUE OF MONEY.


Once again, we don't know that.

In fact there's a lot of regulation, or attempts at regulation, it has varying degrees of success. But then things were pretty screwed before that anyway... the great depression started when the USA was ON the gold standard, was a period of DEFLATION, and recovery started when they came off the Gold Standard.

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 08, 2008, 10:42:56 am
Jon, in the corporate and banking world an agreement does not have to be written down for everyone to see.

the whole concept of reserve banking was pushed by and invented by people who earn money from getting governments to spend..

these people have been doing it officially or unofficially for centuries.

you can't get into detail with the information available, however you CAN deduce that

inflation is NOT being regulated, it's increasing..

more and more credit is being issued every second.

wars and other military spending is being pushed to the max to create more spending

WHO benefits from this??
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 08, 2008, 11:59:29 am
Max, for you to correlate anything today with what happened a hundred years ago is reaching, even for you.  
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 08, 2008, 01:31:42 pm
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 15:42

Jon, in the corporate and banking world an agreement does not have to be written down for everyone to see.


Is this really the best you can do when your claimed facts are proven incorrect?
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 15:42


the whole concept of reserve banking was pushed by and invented by people who earn money from getting governments to spend..



The whole concept of fractional reserve banking predates and has no dependent link with government borrowing or central banks. Each can exist without the other two.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 08, 2008, 03:23:27 pm
Quote:

I hope we learned our lesson over the last 8 years because one more set of dumb asses like these ass clowns in the executive branch, could ruin us for good..Yes, it's that serious. But getting the average American to understand this is NOT easy..

point taken, I will shut up Cool


we will talk again in 5years about this topic.

who is studjiojimmy?
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: rnicklaus on February 08, 2008, 03:27:25 pm
3 words -

Biraq Hussein Osama
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 08, 2008, 05:10:44 pm
rnicklaus wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 21:27

3 words -

Biraq Hussein Osama


studjojimi is all 3.

one word:
Geeeezus..   Laughing  Laughing
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 08, 2008, 05:34:45 pm
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:23


who is studjiojimmy?



George Necrophiliacs new worst mispelled nightmare
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 08, 2008, 10:40:38 pm
studiojimi wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 17:34

myNameIsGeorge wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:23


who is studjiojimmy?



George Necrophiliacs new worst mispelled nightmare



Ohh,, my.. Ouch Laughing  Laughing  Twisted Evil
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 08, 2008, 11:30:38 pm
MDM, wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 08:01

Quote:

There really are people here who want the best for their fellow Americans AND the rest of the world.. There are people running for President who understand that a National health care system, for instance, would be GOOD for our Country. They don't care that certain special interest corporations don't like it.What concerns them is the welfare of the people.. They understand that by making as many lives as possible better they make their lives better..



John, if money weren't involved I would agree with you.

unfortunately it is, and there will be a lot of very HAPPY corporations involved in any government-controlled health-care system..

the government will take more money from the citizens to pay for the healthcare, it will take a part of that money to pay the people who organize the heath-care system, another part will be given to corporations which will manufacture the goods once they get contracts from the governments, another part will go into phantom offices which are put there to earn a bit off money etc. etc..

if you look at the MAJOR supporters of politicians in terms of cash, you will see much corporate influence..

there is nothing more that the corporate crowd would love to see than a government which ASSURES them work-contracts with 'flexible' terms..

in a free market society the only way to regulate prices and quality successfully is through OPEN COMPETITION .


if people weren't so poor they could take care of themselves.

a socialist government in america would only put the corporations at the helm of the government..

their only desire is to provide permanent services to be paid for with the IMMENSE and UNLIMITED pool of money which comes from taxation.



Ok, MDM,, but I'm not someone who thinks that Businesses making money is a bad thing.. I just think it's been done badly and unfairly. There should be no problem with a couple Guys/Gals starting a business that bids and gets Government contracts.. The government should not do everything.. They should do things they do well.-- {Yeah,, ha, there's a big set of arguments here and the fact that I'm quite liberal may or may not inform you about where I stand on certain issues.}--

If people want to, they can have fair contracts represented by our Government that can save the tax payers money.. The way it is now, we would be better off letting the actual government RUN the "businesses" and hire the people directly..The lack of over site and sudden price change regarding goods and services related to Government Contracts is a crime.. It does not have to be this way though..

Certain things, in my opinion, should be run by the Government.. Like the FAA for instance.. If this is done correctly, the Government can be a great employer.. Civil service is dieing in this country and that is very sad to me.. I think Health care should be a combination of Business and Government, but we need to fire a few hundred people before we go anywhere near that..

For now, I'm a single payer fan..


Just try to remember MDM, there really isn't a conspiracy under the desk of every Government employee nor is there one attached to every Contract..

Ivan.........................
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 09, 2008, 01:18:58 am
John Ivan wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 19:40

studiojimi wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 17:34

myNameIsGeorge wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 12:23


who is studjiojimmy?



George Necrophiliacs new worst mispelled nightmare



Ohh,, my.. Ouch Laughing  Laughing  Twisted Evil


pain is prescibed!

uh...ever have a

hertz donut?

index.php/fa/7477/0/

and if this doesn't work i'll hit him where it counts

with my henway
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 09, 2008, 02:43:21 am
he loves me.

btw, why are you still paying income tax? you don't have a law for it..

and JJ, the US had more money from Hitler than the swiss ever had in the 2nd WW. they were financing his rise and fall.. we are talking about bankiers right now, not the governement. union banking corp..  Shocked

the US oilindustrie gave hitler an additive (oil liquid) for his airplanes to fly.

we might have bunker a lot of gold, so we were not beeing kept from the NAZIs, but you were fighting and supporting him at the same time. what is more stupid? (or may I ask: what is more rentable).

the grandfather of George W. Bush was the CEO and shareholder of this bank. now you will say: "Uh George, you have surfed the internet too much".. no, JJ. there was an investigation during the 2.WW and the union banking corp had to freeze this money for a certain time. now you have a new order:
vesting order 248




cheers
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 09, 2008, 09:37:29 am
Quote:

 There should be no problem with a couple Guys/Gals starting a business that bids and gets Government contracts..



that is not what ends up happening though, because the politicians who get 'financed' by corporations usually end up going to office..

money talks.. with enough money you can win elections..

the fact that NOBODY outside the two parties even gets talked about is PROOF that politics is bullshit.

anyone should be able to run for office based on their merits..

instead you have corporate-funded actor/politician/stars which, once elected, are EXPECTED to create business for the corporations and RETURN the investment which was made in regards to financing campaigns etc..

huckabee, clinton, obama etc.. are not the ONLY ones who should be running, but they are the ONLY ONES TO GET EXPOSURE and media support..
add electronic voting to the picture..


does that seem fair or democratic to you??

washington is in the hands of big business, and this is not good by any means..

you don't seem to understand that big business only exists to make money, and as corporations they are legally bound to do anything within their power to increase earnings..

if government runs everything then corporations will run everything, not mom and pop operations as you say.



Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 09, 2008, 10:34:56 am
MDM, wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 14:37

you don't seem to understand that big business only exists to make money, and as corporations they are legally bound to do anything within their power to increase earnings..


I've looked into this claim a little further.

Actually philanthropy is part of the policy of many corporations, from one man companies through to huge corporations like Coke, Wal Mart and the pharmaceutticals. Every year billions is donated in cash, goods, and services.

Now how much of this is down to genuine altruism and how much is down to it being a business decision (investing money in the goodwill of the public and your own employees thus strengthening your image and improving future profits) is debatable... I'd say it's probably much more of the second, but not exclusively so (since not everyone publicizes these donations). However the reason is irrelevant in this context, what is important it that many corporations do not simply work on a policy of screwing the maximum amount of money out as possible today.

In a slightly different, but related context, the Cooperative bank has an ethical investment policy for their business accounts, which means that they list in black and white the sorts of companies that they will invest your money in, and those that they won't. Now are they doing this because they think it's the right thing to do... or are they doing it because they think it will attract more customers? Well even if it's 100% the latter in their case, that would only work if their potential client base (other businesses) considered that to be a factor alongside fees, interest rates etc.

Of course it would be foolish to simply trust in the altruism (or long sightedness) of corporations with something like healthcare, or education or anything else. Proper competition in bidding for contracts and proper oversight and accountability are essential (but all too often non existant).

Advocates of a sompletly Free Market approach to such things seem to conveniently ignore the fact that when it existed before large swathes of the population had almost no chance of education or healthcare.... oh and that was during a century with overall deflation before you go off into that one Max.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 09, 2008, 11:31:42 am
tax cuts, public relations .. that's why corps. give away money.

COKE earns billions.

as far as the 19th century, the reason for the change was the industrial revolution, which initially impoverished but after a transition period created wealth.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 09, 2008, 11:55:07 am
MDM, wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 16:31

tax cuts, public relations .. that's why corps. give away money.


Well the tax breaks don't actually give you any money when you give it to charity.. you just get the satisfaction in knowing that a chunk of what you're giving would otherwise have gone to the treasury... which I find rather pleasant personally.

I did state the case of public relations quite clearly.

MDM, wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 16:31


COKE earns billions.


Tell me something I don't know. Still doesn't change the fact that not all of their policies are based on directly quantifiable profit, which is what you keep implying.
MDM, wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 16:31


as far as the 19th century, the reason for the change was the industrial revolution, which initially impoverished but after a transition period created wealth.

Who did it impoverish? The reason people went to those industrial jobs was that they paid so much better than the alternatives. They were also generally really bad for your health.

Anyway, I don;t see anything in your statement which is in any way a defence of your unrestricted free market ideals.

I also find it quite amusing that on the one hand you seem to think that all corporations and banks are in league with each other to impoverish and enslave the proletariat... but then because Ron Paul says the free market is the answer to everything you suddenly trust them to compete honestly when it comes to healthcare.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 09, 2008, 01:44:50 pm
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Fri, 08 February 2008 23:43

he loves me.

btw, why are you still paying income tax? you don't have a law for it..


You pay taxes there in ways you are not aware of.

Quote:

and JJ, the US had more money from Hitler than the swiss ever had in the 2nd WW. they were financing his rise and fall.. we are talking about bankiers right now, not the governement. union banking corp..  Shocked

the US oilindustrie gave hitler an additive (oil liquid) for his airplanes to fly.


Not once the war started.  Redo your homework.  In fact, the importance of invading Serbia and the Caucasus was to take the oil fields, and US Banks were not allowed to do business with German companies.  Stop reading those comic books, George.

Quote:

we might have bunker a lot of gold, so we were not beeing kept from the NAZIs, but you were fighting and supporting him at the same time. what is more stupid? (or may I ask: what is more rentable).

the grandfather of George W. Bush was the CEO and shareholder of this bank. now you will say: "Uh George, you have surfed the internet too much".. no, JJ. there was an investigation during the 2.WW and the union banking corp had to freeze this money for a certain time. now you have a new order:
vesting order 248


When you say "you," if you mean the US, then you are wrong.  Individuals with Nazi sympathies did, and they paid the price for it.  It's called "trading wit the enemy" and it was illegal.  And Prescot Bush was a bank board member, not a CEO.  I take it that you don't know how a bank board works.  I'm not defending Bush, but the board has nothing to do with the operations of the bank.  

Please get your facts straight, when trying to vilify this country.  

Regardless, as I said, the Swiss laundered the gold that was taken out of the teeth of concentration camp victims, as well as the money taken from their bank accounts.  And then, your banks refused to give the money back to the survivors.  End of story.

Yeah, we've done some incredibly shitty things that I'm ashamed of too, but don't come in here throwing stones in a glass house.  Your country's banking system is and always has been a sanctuary for ill gotten gains.  All these African despots who rob the treasuries of their countries, while they kill their already starving people; where do you think they keep their money?  Not in the US, I assure you.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 09, 2008, 03:10:31 pm
there are no morals in banking..

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 09, 2008, 03:25:21 pm
MDM, wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 20:10

there are no morals in banking..




Because obviously the tens of thousands of people working in banking are all sociopaths  Rolling Eyes

Less morality and common decency than we would like, definately, fewer safeguards than should be insisted on, probably, an amazing amount of selfishness, ignorance and incompetence, no question.

but NO morals? Yet another false definitive statement from max.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 09, 2008, 03:51:22 pm
Hmmm.  "There's no morals in banking."  I thought it was, "There's no crying in baseball."

OK, how about this: The love of money is the root of all evil.

Has a nice ring to it, no?
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 09, 2008, 03:54:42 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 20:51

Hmmm.  "There's no morals in banking."  I thought it was, "There's no crying in baseball."

OK, how about this: The love of money is the root of all evil.

Has a nice ring to it, no?


nice ring to it... but not really true is it?
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 09, 2008, 04:14:46 pm
You're right.  It's not true.  There IS crying in baseball.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 09, 2008, 04:16:22 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 21:14

You're right.  It's not true.  There IS crying in baseball.


shit! really?  Shocked

Now there goes another one of my happy delusions Sad
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 09, 2008, 05:37:35 pm
Quote:

In fact, the importance of invading Serbia and the Caucasus was to take the oil fields, and US Banks were not allowed to do business with German companies. Stop reading those comic books, George.


that is simply not true..


Quote:

You pay taxes there in ways you are not aware of.


poor pay less (5 to 8%), rich pay more, superrich pay nothing Very Happy and we have a law for it, so we have to pay it. you don't so you can stop to pay it if you like.. but as it seems, you like to pay a lot of money for the bankiers.


Quote:

When you say "you," if you mean the US, then you are wrong. Individuals with Nazi sympathies did, and they paid the price for it. It's called "trading wit the enemy" and it was illegal. And Prescot Bush was a bank board member, not a CEO. I take it that you don't know how a bank board works. I'm not defending Bush, but the board has nothing to do with the operations of the bank.

Please get your facts straight, when trying to vilify this country.

Regardless, as I said, the Swiss laundered the gold that was taken out of the teeth of concentration camp victims, as well as the money taken from their bank accounts. And then, your banks refused to give the money back to the survivors. End of story.


I say: YOU THE COMPANY.. the FUKKIN oil company who was in the US, who was led by us guys.. you always BLAME ME for BEEING SWISS.. THE SWISS HAVe.. blabberling...a lot of blabbering.. Wink

I know how a bank work. you dont get how your system work as it seems to me. Bush had very big influence in this decision. get YOUR book right. As for my part, I am an Auslander. I think my knowledge of US-history is quite ok. please try to remember your past JJ Wink

we didn't refused it.. we didn't want to pay the lawyer. that was hilarious. he wanted to have 50% first..  Very Happy

in my next life, I will be lawyer too.. and then learn how a bank work.. and then become a family member of the Rothschild-clan... I hope they like longhaired heavy-metal guys ruling the world.

my first move:
rock n roll for everyone.. and some historybooks for JJ  Cool oh, and I will get more english-lessons as soon as I rule the world. Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 09, 2008, 05:41:23 pm
oh..the threadtopic was about hillary.. hm..

what happend to her universal healthcare plan?  Laughing  Laughing

people should remember better what she was standing for in the past and what she is doing now.. it's terrible..
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 09, 2008, 06:03:11 pm
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 22:41

oh..the threadtopic was about hillary.. hm..

what happend to her universal healthcare plan?  Laughing  Laughing

people should remember better what she was standing for in the past and what she is doing now.. it's terrible..


I don't know what it looked like before, but was it anything like this one ?

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 09, 2008, 06:38:03 pm
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 14:37

Quote:

In fact, the importance of invading Serbia and the Caucasus was to take the oil fields, and US Banks were not allowed to do business with German companies. Stop reading those comic books, George.


that is simply not true..


George, it IS true.  Just because you say it's not, doesn't make it so.  You sound like a five year old.  

I've been studying the European part of WW2 since I was a kid.  It is a passion of mine.  Trust me.  I know more about it than you or almost anybody else in here.  I know the generals, the battles, the weapons, the strategies and the tactics.  I have shelves of books on the subject.  The license plates on both my cars are the model numbers of Luftwaffe aircraft.  WW2 is my thing.  It's called Ploesti.  Look it up.  

Quote:

I know how a bank work. you dont get how your system work as it seems to me. Bush had very big influence in this decision. get YOUR book right. As for my part, I am an Auslander. I think my knowledge of US-history is quite ok. please try to remember your past JJ Wink


Your knowldge of US history and your understanding of how our system works is EXTREMELY lacking.  Have you ever even been here to the US?  Answer that.

Quote:

in my next life, I will be lawyer too.. and then learn how a bank work.. and then become a family member of the Rothschild-clan... I hope they like longhaired heavy-metal guys ruling the world.

my first move:
rock n roll for everyone.. and some historybooks for JJ  Cool oh, and I will get more english-lessons as soon as I rule the world. Rolling Eyes


George, did you know that the Rothchilds are Jewish?  I don't think they would like you.

You know, when I point out where you are wrong in audio, I'm not being mean.  But today, I'm going to tell you that you are an idiot.  And it's the worst kind of idiot, because you think you know more than you actually do.  And what makes you look even more idiotic is the certainty with which you proclaim your  misinformation.  

So why don;t you read Penn's lips and take his advice:

http://www.dohc.co.uk/sigs/shut_the_fuck_up_small.gif
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 09, 2008, 08:49:39 pm
Jon Hodgson wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 16:16

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 21:14

You're right.  It's not true.  There IS crying in baseball.


shit! really?  Shocked

Now there goes another one of my happy delusions Sad


woah woah,, hold on one damn minute here! there is NO crying in baseball Embarassed  Embarassed

http://www.traversecitybeachbums.com/

We can't have it!! The Traverse City "Beech Bums" WILL make a come back this year with out shedding a tear.. Cool  Cool
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 09, 2008, 09:12:31 pm
I'm sorry, there IS crying in baseball.  This is true: at different times in my father's life, my life and my son's, we have all been seriously smacked in the nose by a baseball.  All three of these incidents required serious medical attention.  Trust me, I cried. It hurt like a sonuvabitch.  My son cried too -- first game of T-ball he played.  Dad, I don't know -- he was in the Navy playing catcher without a mask.  He went to catch the ball but his face caught the bat instead.

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 09, 2008, 09:34:13 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 21:12

I'm sorry, there IS crying in baseball.  This is true: at different times in my father's life, my life and my son's, we have all been seriously smacked in the nose by a baseball.  All three of these incidents required serious medical attention.  Trust me, I cried. It hurt like a sonuvabitch.  My son cried too -- first game of T-ball he played.  Dad, I don't know -- he was in the Navy playing catcher without a mask.  He went to catch the ball but his face caught the bat instead.





Yeah, I forgot about this.. You're right. it hurts like hell and I cried too..BUT THATS THE ONLY TIME YOU CAN CRY IN BASEBALL!!
Cool  Cool  Cool
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 09, 2008, 10:08:13 pm
Thanks Ivan for the dispensation.  You've helped me heal part of my past.

Wink
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 10, 2008, 05:17:22 am
Quote:


You know, when I point out where you are wrong in audio, I'm not being mean. But today, I'm going to tell you that you are an idiot. And it's the worst kind of idiot, because you think you know more than you actually do. And what makes you look even more idiotic is the certainty with which you proclaim your misinformation.



the interesting fact is, that you might be right that I am an idiot. maybe I am just scared what americas next move is, but the history is shaking hands with my explanation/fact-study. you know, I can't really articulate the way I want, not because of my small brain, just because my english sucks. so it's hard for me to keep up with you JJ...  Crying or Very Sad  Crying or Very Sad

I think I will shut my mouth this time, go crying and we will discuss that topic again in 4 years. thanx JJ for calling me names too.. I don't feel that bad now  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

http://jakking.typepad.com/daily/images/nice_big_cup_1.jpg
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 10, 2008, 05:19:26 am
Jon Hodgson wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 00:03

myNameIsGeorge wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 22:41

oh..the threadtopic was about hillary.. hm..

what happend to her universal healthcare plan?  Laughing  Laughing

people should remember better what she was standing for in the past and what she is doing now.. it's terrible..


I don't know what it looked like before, but was it anything like this one ?

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/


she wanted to have universal healthcare, when mr. Clinton was president. she is paid now by the Kaiser guys and just passed this great idea.

congrat.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 10, 2008, 06:22:21 am
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 10:19

Jon Hodgson wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 00:03

myNameIsGeorge wrote on Sat, 09 February 2008 22:41

oh..the threadtopic was about hillary.. hm..

what happend to her universal healthcare plan?  Laughing  Laughing

people should remember better what she was standing for in the past and what she is doing now.. it's terrible..


I don't know what it looked like before, but was it anything like this one ?

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/


she wanted to have universal healthcare, when mr. Clinton was president. she is paid now by the Kaiser guys and just passed this great idea.

congrat.


Not sure who you're congratulating, I'm just an abserver in all this, since I'm not American.

So, you think she should have stuck with a health plan that was the biggest defeat of her career and didn't stand a hope in hell of ever being implemented?

Personally I'd hope that a presidential candidate could learn something in 15 years.

Not saying whether she's a good candidate or bad, just that your example of how terrible she is happens to appear rather flawed.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: danickstr on February 10, 2008, 10:07:10 am
It never reflects well on a person to lose their temper.  At least not in print on an archivable server.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 10, 2008, 11:28:14 am
George, you never answered the question which I asked twice: Have you ever been to the US?
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 10, 2008, 11:34:24 am
danickstr wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 07:07

It never reflects well on a person to lose their temper.  At least not in print on an archivable server.


Yeah, you're right.  I'm having a bad day.  A bad week, actually.  

Sorry I called you an idiot, George.  You can just be very, very frustrating when you state these huge mistruths with such certainty.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 10, 2008, 11:41:54 am
JJ, is it possible that even though american banks were not allowed to deal with Germany once the war started, financing from other countries was possible?

and if this is so, was there any relaying of cash or goods through a third non-american party or affiliate.

just out of curiosity, I don't doubt your knowledge.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 10, 2008, 12:49:02 pm
Max, first off, Germany didn't need our money during the war, so financing is not an issue.  Even though some American businesses were complicit in helping Germany rebuild itself during the 1930's, once they started invading other countries, they had an endless supply of loot and slave labor.  The only issue was whether or not Americans sold them goods or did business, to profit off of them.

In a situation like UBC, if a company, even a large bank like that, was caught doing business with the enemy, even if members of their board of directors were U.S. Senators, their assets were seized.  With draconian consequences like that, not too many people tried it.  

As much as I dislike Bush, the notion that Prescott Bush was actively aiding the enemy, while his son was actively fighting against them, is laughable.  George H. W. Bush was a TBM pilot, fighting against the Axis.  Who are you going to back, the Axis or your son?  I mean, the Bushes may be ultra rich, robber barons, but they don't eat their young.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: MDM, on February 10, 2008, 01:16:34 pm
interesting.

so who financed the rise to power of Hitler? were they involved during that time-period?


BTW is it true that the Germans were forced into the war because other countries were boycotting german goods?

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 10, 2008, 01:24:33 pm
MDM, wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 13:16

interesting.

so who financed the rise to power of Hitler? were they involved during that time-period?


BTW is it true that the Germans were forced into the war because other countries were boycotting german goods?





George, I'm thinkin' you better get used to the idea that we Americans are a bunch of evil bastards and we are coming to get you!!! We are a Horrible people with bad intentions.. We as Americans spend all our time trying to figure out how to make your life a living hell.. there is not one normal person among us..

Hillary Clinton is holding talks with GWB an Obama as we speak in an effort to find you and have you jailed.. Then, as you know, we are going to Cook and Eat you.. Just like we do everyone else..

You knew all this already though, apparently Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes

Ivan...................
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 10, 2008, 01:36:20 pm
John Ivan wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 19:24

MDM, wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 13:16

interesting.

so who financed the rise to power of Hitler? were they involved during that time-period?


BTW is it true that the Germans were forced into the war because other countries were boycotting german goods?





George, I'm thinkin' you better get used to the idea that we Americans are a bunch of evil bastards and we are coming to get you!!! We are a Horrible people with bad intentions.. We as Americans spend all our time trying to figure out how to make your life a living hell.. there is not one normal person among us..

Hillary Clinton is holding talks with GWB an Obama as we speak in an effort to find you and have you jailed.. Then, as you know, we are going to Cook and Eat you.. Just like we do everyone else..

You knew all this already though, apparently Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes

Ivan...................


if you dont come and takeaway all my cheese.. I will be the idiotic George for the end of your time..calm and secured  Cool
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 10, 2008, 01:39:04 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 17:28

George, you never answered the question which I asked twice: Have you ever been to the US?


we had this discussion some time ago. no I wasn't. a friend of mine mixed a tour with necrophagist and he was very impressed by the US.


for example: it was not possible to go from Shoppingmall A to shoppingmall B by feet. you had to take your car and drive the 0.01 mile or you had to cross an 8 lanes-highway.  Laughing

but in general he liked the sex he had there, as it was very easy for him to dingdong girls, so because the most porn is comming from the US and the experience from my friend, you deserve it to live  Very Happy
thanx, out
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 10, 2008, 02:22:09 pm
MDM, wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 10:16

interesting.

so who financed the rise to power of Hitler? were they involved during that time-period?


There were many people who thought that the idea of a strong Germany was a good idea, during the 30s.  Some national heroes even, like Charles Lindburgh and Henry Ford were sympathetic to the Nazis, as well as the Duke of Windsor.  Mind you, nobody knew where this was all going at the time.  However, the official policy of the U.S, government was that Germany was still an enemy.  They were still under the impact of the Versailles Treaty, which by the time 1935 rolled around, they were completely ignoring with a major rebuilding of their army.  The US did not have a very good standing army, and were very wary of the German build up.

Quote:


BTW is it true that the Germans were forced into the war because other countries were boycotting german goods?




That's bullshit.  Germany wasn't forced into anything.  It started with them reclaiming the Sudetenland, and snowballed from there.  They got into the war because they were ashamed of what happened to them after WW1, and they had to prove themselves to be the great and proud empire they always were.  Like I said, Hitler's idol was Frederick the Great.  This was the model he was following.  

He had himself fought in WW1, which he recalled as the happiest time of his life.  He was so humiliated by the surrender and terms of the Versailles Treaty, and like most Germans, blamed the German Jews for negotiating the surrender.

And given the battered state of their economy at the time he took power, and the longing for a leader and national pride, he was able to manipulate public opinion in a very similar way to what we witnessed here in 2003.  You can sell a large bunch of people on some very evil bullshit under the right circumstances.  
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 10, 2008, 02:29:47 pm
George, in any country, absolute power corrupts absolutely.  You have have a people with good intentions, but the people leading them drift astray of their convictions.  And then you just have some sociopathic, evil and greedy bastards, like Dick Cheney, who do atrocious things, and then cry "patriotism."

I'm embarrassed by my president.  I'm embarrassed by many of the ignorant people that live here.  But I'm proud of my country and the principles for which we are intended to stand.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 10, 2008, 02:42:09 pm
J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 20:29


I'm embarrassed by my president.  I'm embarrassed by many of the ignorant people that live here.  But I'm proud of my country and the principles for which we are intended to stand.


I have no problem that you are proud, I think patrotism and idiotism are a thin line.
we have patriots in Switzerland with no hair and a baseballbat that claim themselve patriots. denmark/belgium are 2 of the most racisistic countries in europe and both inhabitants are very proud of their homeland.

Australia had a law, that no blackman is allowed to live there or move in. that was in 1971 when they dismissed that law, if I am right (have to read it again).

I would be proud of any country that has a good balance of controlling people, giving people freedom/good social-security and confidence, governement is more or less transparent and make sense.

we are all humans, not inhabitants of diffrent countries.

cheers


Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Tim Halligan on February 10, 2008, 04:51:02 pm
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 04:42


Australia had a law, that no blackman is allowed to live there or move in. that was in 1971 when they dismissed that law, if I am right (have to read it again).




I think you might be referring to the old "White Australia Policy" which was all about immigration policy. Exceptions were made if an applicant had specific skills that we were lacking in order to build our country.

It would have been difficult to stop blackmen living here as, well...our native inhabitants who have occupied this land for 40 000 - yes, that's forty thousand - years are black...although we haven't treated them all that well....

Cheers,
Tim
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: danickstr on February 10, 2008, 10:34:00 pm
Seems like they would have been there longer than 40k years, since there were no boats of which I am aware.

but since man originated on east Africa 4 million years ago, how did they get there?

found this:

More than 30,000 years ago the population of the world was small, and people lived in family groups, hunting, fishing and food gathering. There where no cultivated crops, animals were not herded for food and metalworking was yet to be discovered.

At that time, known as the last great Ice Age, Australia was joined to New Guinea. Islands such as Java and Borneo were larger than today, sea passages between them narrower. This made it possible for the ancestors of the people now called Australian Aboriginals to reach Australia from lands to the north.

Aboriginal Raft (picture of a shady raft) It is not known from where the Aboriginals began their journey, but it is certain that people with some kind of water craft crossed the 100 - 160 kilometres stretches of water between the islands to the north; and reach the southern continent. This sea voyage is the earliest evidence of sea travel by prehistoric man.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 10, 2008, 10:52:53 pm
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 14:42


I would be proud of any country that has a good balance of controlling people, giving people freedom/good social-security and confidence, governement is more or less transparent and make sense.

we are all humans, not inhabitants of diffrent countries.

cheers






We are Human inhabitants of the Earth who do live in different countries. And for what it's worth, being someone who actually lives here, I can tell you that we have a "pretty Good" balance of "Controlling people" giving people freedom OK social security and confidence. Our Government is relatively transparent too..

As you know, we are working harder than we have in quite a while as citizens to make all these things better than "Pretty Good".. This is why we are going to elect new people this year.. Whether you like it or not, these people are NOT all the same..You just think we are all the same out of ignorance.

Hope that clears some things up for you there George..

Ivan..........................
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 10, 2008, 11:45:34 pm
"i've been a lot of places in my life and times"

(thank you Leon)

i'm grateful to live where i live and how i live

i'm grateful for what i have and how i was able to get it by being here and not somewhere else.

i wish i didn't have to pay over $400 per month for health insurance that i don't even think is all that good but i have hope for the future in america in that dept.

other than that, i would not trade a thing as i know i am able to achieve my wildest dreams in this country.

i'm not real happy about someone needlessly posting arrogant and aggressively postured critical posts about my country in here.

sure they are free to do so

God bless.

you can't take what we have away from us

i'm thinking deep down you are an american wannabe and just plain jealous of our endless possibilities

we'll straighten out this mess the politicians have created.

hopefully i'll see real improvement in my lifetime




Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Larrchild on February 10, 2008, 11:59:18 pm
Right-on Jimi.
http://www.onehitwondercentral.com/Byron_MacGregor_Gordon_Si nclair_Americans.mp3
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 11, 2008, 12:17:55 am
Sniff, I'm *so* proud, sniff that I could stand up and cheer!


*********

And now back to the thread topic:

index.php/fa/7518/0/
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 11, 2008, 01:07:38 am
Quote:

Until recent years, racist policies and practices were also embedded within Australian laws and institutions. The most telling examples of these were the removal of Aboriginal children from their families and the denial of full citizenship rights to Aboriginal people and Torres Strait Islander people. Similarly, the White Australia policy aimed to restrict immigration by people from non-European backgrounds. Historically, rises in unemployment have often led to calls for immigration restrictions and in some cases led to the scapegoating of people who were seen to be different to members of the dominant culture. While legislation now exists to protect the rights of all citizens, there is a continuing legacy today from the effects of these racist practices.



Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy


Quote:

The inauguration of White Australia as government policy is generally taken to be the passage of the Immigration Restriction Act in 1901, very soon after Australian federation. The policy was dismantled in stages by successive governments after the conclusion of World War II, with the encouragement of first non-British and later non-white immigration. From 1973 on, the White Australia policy was for all practical purposes defunct, and in 1975 the Australian government passed the Racial Discrimination Act, which made racially-based selection criteria illegal.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 11, 2008, 04:38:34 am
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 11:42

J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 20:29


I'm embarrassed by my president.  I'm embarrassed by many of the ignorant people that live here.  But I'm proud of my country and the principles for which we are intended to stand.


I have no problem that you are proud, I think patrotism and idiotism are a thin line.


Now you are putting words in my mouth; I don't equate national pride with patriotism.  

And there are many types of patriotism.  I consider some of the people who have challenged the authority of our government to be some of our greatest patriots.  

Or as I said in a sign that I had in front of my house during the lead up to the invasion of Iraq: "Blind faith in bad leadership is not patriotic."
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 11, 2008, 04:54:30 am
J.J. Blair wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 10:38

myNameIsGeorge wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 11:42

J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 10 February 2008 20:29


I'm embarrassed by my president.  I'm embarrassed by many of the ignorant people that live here.  But I'm proud of my country and the principles for which we are intended to stand.


I have no problem that you are proud, I think patrotism and idiotism are a thin line.


Now you are putting words in my mouth; I don't equate national pride with patriotism.  

And there are many types of patriotism.  I consider some of the people who have challenged the authority of our government to be some of our greatest patriots.  

Or as I said in a sign that I had in front of my house during the lead up to the invasion of Iraq: "Blind faith in bad leadership is not patriotic."


I would never put something else than swiss chocolate in your mouth JJ. Wink

I accept your point and have not a single problem with it Wink
agreed.

cheers
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: ssltech on February 11, 2008, 10:35:30 am
I never really HAD to consider national pride until I decided to naturalise and become an American Citizen. -At that time I looked at the British system (of late) and the American system and decided that both had a lot to recommend them.

I thought deeply about whether I wanted to become part of a flawed system, and in the end I decided that I DID, because the system invites its members to try and fix the flaws... I believe the same to be true of the UK and many other countries, by the way.

Anyhow, I did indeed become a citizen, and I'm now content to take pride in that fact -WITHOUT blind patriotism, which I find to be offensive in ANY nation.

There's a lot about America at the moment which embarrasses me; much of it is to do with the dipshit that got himself into the White House a few years ago, and other bits are to do with some of the tourists. -Being originally from a different country, I tend to be more sensitive to how my more recently-adopted country is viewed from outside, I suppose.

So I absolutely underscore JJ's point that national pride and patriotism are NOT synonyms; I draw a BIG distinction between the two, though I find that "patriots" are more inclined to confuse the two, and ignore -or even DENY- any legitimate distinction.

I've spent a few days listening to AM talk radio recently, and I can't tell you how horrified I am about the COMPLETE obfuscation of any distinction or delineation between the two notions that the ass-clowns on there are peddling.

Keith
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Larrchild on February 11, 2008, 12:26:59 pm
Keith:
Quote:

I've spent a few days listening to AM talk radio recently, and I can't tell you how horrified I am about the COMPLETE obfuscation of any distinction or delineation between the two notions that the ass-clowns on there are peddling.


It's hard to tell when the shrieking midgets of conservative AM talk radio are angrier, when their team is in office or when it's not.

So with the upcoming Democratic administration to provide new material to line their pockets, I would not expect the vitriol to subside.


Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: rnicklaus on February 11, 2008, 04:16:46 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyUUx3no_gs

Is this real?
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: John Ivan on February 11, 2008, 04:25:07 pm
THAT was cool!! I know it's cheezzzzy but, it's the best campaign ad I've seen this year.Although, I bet it didn't come from her people directly.. I think it's fun..

Ivan................
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: danickstr on February 11, 2008, 05:15:30 pm
ssltech wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 10:35

the COMPLETE obfuscation of any distinction or delineation between the two notions that the ass-clowns on there are peddling.

Keith


I spent 5 minutes on urbandictionary.com reading all the definitions of assclown (19).  Although I did hear it first from JJ

Nationalism and patriotism I guess are two different things.  While there are evil(er) nations out there that would (if they could) use the militia a major power has to openly enslave other nations, I guess we need both to a degree.


Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: PRobb on February 11, 2008, 05:16:14 pm
The line "my country right or wrong" is often cited by those expressing the worst aspect of patriotism. However the whole line is "My country right or wrong. If right to be kept right. If wrong to be made right." I like that.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 11, 2008, 05:51:15 pm
and

should we just throw out "one nation under God"???


Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 11, 2008, 06:30:08 pm
No.  We just need to remind people it is "one nation under God" and not "one nation that *is* God".
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: rnicklaus on February 11, 2008, 06:30:32 pm
studiojimi wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 14:51

and

should we just throw out "one nation under God"???




You do know this was added in the '50's under Eisenhower, correct?

<<Eisenhower was instrumental in the addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, and the 1956 adoption of "In God We Trust" as the motto of the US, and its 1957 introduction on paper currency.>>
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: conquer on February 11, 2008, 06:33:21 pm
Even Bill voted for Obama  Shocked

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f54/exhibitions/Bill.jpg
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 11, 2008, 06:36:02 pm
rnicklaus wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 17:30

studiojimi wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 14:51

and

should we just throw out "one nation under God"???




You do know this was added in the '50's under Eisenhower, correct?

<<Eisenhower was instrumental in the addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, and the 1956 adoption of "In God We Trust" as the motto of the US, and its 1957 introduction on paper currency.>>



And your point would be...
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: rnicklaus on February 11, 2008, 06:39:33 pm
Barry Hufker wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 15:36

rnicklaus wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 17:30

studiojimi wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 14:51

and

should we just throw out "one nation under God"???




You do know this was added in the '50's under Eisenhower, correct?

<<Eisenhower was instrumental in the addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, and the 1956 adoption of "In God We Trust" as the motto of the US, and its 1957 introduction on paper currency.>>



And your point would be...


Just making sure that when someone refers to one nation under God, that everyone knows where it came from.  Simple as that.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: danickstr on February 11, 2008, 07:40:21 pm
my point would be that the founding fathers explicitly put in writing that there was to be no co-mingling of church and state, so I think it is a smudging of that rule. Smile
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: George_ on February 12, 2008, 01:06:33 am
http://www.shadoehaze.com/photo-galleries/Christmas%20Stuff/dead%20santa.jpg
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 12, 2008, 01:28:12 am
rnicklaus wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 15:39

Barry Hufker wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 15:36

rnicklaus wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 17:30

studiojimi wrote on Mon, 11 February 2008 14:51

and

should we just throw out "one nation under God"???




You do know this was added in the '50's under Eisenhower, correct?

<<Eisenhower was instrumental in the addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, and the 1956 adoption of "In God We Trust" as the motto of the US, and its 1957 introduction on paper currency.>>



And your point would be...


Just making sure that when someone refers to one nation under God, that everyone knows where it came from.  Simple as that.




i was born in 1950 and believe me it was a great time to be alive and be an american

i guess most any time a great time to be alive

i like ike

all the info is here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 12, 2008, 12:02:29 pm
Jimi,

You and I had a different 1950s!  I was born in '54 so I don't remember too much.  And life was fine I guess because I was a kid.  But I don't look back fondly on the 50s -- a time of mediocrity, red-scare and blandness.  Thank goodness Elvis came along!


George,

That is one AWFUL picture.  It breaks my heart to see that kid cry.  Granted its probably all photo-shopped but boy that's mean.


"One nation under God" -- I was just asking that's all.  I wondered if there was something larger to learn from the history.

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: PRobb on February 12, 2008, 02:02:52 pm
When people say this is a Christian nation, it depends on what you mean.

Christian in the sense that the population is overwhelmingly Christian? Obviously.

Christian in the sense that the majority culture  grows out of Christian traditions? Hard to argue with that.

Christian in the same sense that Iran is Muslim? Absolutely not. But that's what Huckabee and the religious right is talking about.

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on February 12, 2008, 06:32:37 pm
PRobb wrote on Tue, 12 February 2008 14:02


Christian in the same sense that Iran is Muslim? Absolutely not. But that's what Huckabee and the religious right is talking about.




This is an honest question, can one be anything but a Muslim in Iran?
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: mgod on February 12, 2008, 06:44:29 pm
Yes - there are still Jews there. They may not want to go running around with their torahs in the streets, but they are there.

DS
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 12, 2008, 06:50:10 pm
fiasco wrote on Tue, 12 February 2008 23:32

PRobb wrote on Tue, 12 February 2008 14:02


Christian in the same sense that Iran is Muslim? Absolutely not. But that's what Huckabee and the religious right is talking about.




This is an honest question, can one be anything but a Muslim in Iran?



Yes, non muslims make up between 1 and 2% of the population.

Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism are official religions and have legal rights (there are even seats in parliament reserved for Armenians, Assyrians, Jews and Zoroastrians), and there are others which are officially frowned upon but seem to continue, for example there are something like 300,000 bahais there.

I think it would be rather enthusiastic to refer to the situation there as freedom of religion, far from it, but it's not quite as bad as some people would have you believe, and from what I can see the situation under the shah wasn't all that much better for religious minorities (it was better however).
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on February 12, 2008, 08:44:07 pm
Jon wrote:
Quote:

... but it's not quite as bad as some people would have you believe...



I have no doubt of that.
I live about 2 miles from a huge mosque(?) where they fly the flags of many Muslim nations, and the U.S. flag.
I shop at their stores and converse with them. I know the majority of Muslims are just like everyone else, and I know that opinions can be, and usually are skewed.

I think that goes for everyone.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 12, 2008, 09:02:03 pm
It is also important to note not all Muslims are the same as to how they practice their religion.  Muslims of the Middle East are not at all like who you'd find in Eastern Europe.  VERY different.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Kris on February 13, 2008, 11:22:16 am
This is the best political thread I've ever stumbled into...  I think I learned something from you arrogant bastards Shocked
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 13, 2008, 01:00:15 pm
Kris wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 08:22

This is the best political thread I've ever stumbled into...  I think I learned something from you arrogant bastards Shocked



Well Mr. Stumbler, here's a lil' mo schoolin'
4 ya

Studiojimi #1 AB (Arrogant Bastard) REP Saloon Master of Arms



This is a profound writing.  No matter your politics, you owe it to yourself to read and pass on so we all are informed of what's going on in our world!



Another assessment of where the US stands in relation to the   Middle East problems, this one is from the guy who had his   finger on the nuclear trigger for three years as head of our   defense and response complex buried under Cheyenne   Mountain at Colorado Springs . He was the only person   who could initiate a nuclear attack after advising the sitting   president of a missile launch by our enemies and our need   to respond.  



No political or civilian type in the US had more   knowledge about day to day military actions around the   world.  Everyone should find quiet time to read this.   As far as I am concerned, it is exactly the direction we   should go and the consequences of not doing so   are well thought out.   John R. (Jack) Farrington Major General, USAF (Retired)





Middle East Imperative

BY: JIM CASH, Brig.  Gen., USAF, Ret.



I wrote recently about the war in Iraq and the larger war against radical Islam, eliciting a number of responses.  Let me try and put this conflict in proper perspective.

Understand, the current battle we are engaged in is much bigger than just Iraq.What happens in the next year will affect this country and how our kids and grandkids live throughout their lifetime, and beyond.  Radical Islam has been attacking the West since the seventh century. They have been defeated in the past and decimated to the point of taking hundreds of years to recover.  But they can never be totally defeated. Their birth rates are so far beyond civilized world rates that in time they recover and attempt to dominate again.



There are eight terror-sponsoring countries that make up the grand threat to the West.  Two , Saudi Arabia and Pakistan , just need firm pressure from the West to make major reforms.  They need to decide who they are really going to support and commit to that support.  That answer is simple.  They both will support who they think will hang in there until the end, and win. We are not sending very good signals in that direction right now, thanks to the Democrats.

The other six, Afghanistan , Iraq , Iran , Syria , North Korea and Libya will require regime change or a major policy shift.  Now, let's look more closely.



Afghanistan and Iraq have both had regime changes, but are being fueled by outsiders from Syria and  Iran.  We have scared Gaddafi's pants off, and he has given up his quest for nuclear weapons, so I don't think Libya is now a threat.



 North Korea (the non-Islamic threat) can be handled diplomatically by buying them off.  They are starving.  That leaves Syria and Iran. Syria is like a frightened puppy.  Without the support of Iran, they will join the stronger side.  So where does that leave us?  Sooner, or later, we are going to be forced to confront Iran , and it better be before they gain nuclear capability.

In 1989 I served as a Command Director inside the Cheyenne Mountain complex located in Colorado Springs , Colorado, for almost three years. My job there was to observe (through classified means) every missile shot anywhere in the world and assess if it was a threat to the US or Canada .  If any shot was threatening to either nation, I had only minutes to advise the President, as he had only minutes to respond.



I watched Iran and Iraq shoot missiles at each other every day, and all day long, for months.  They killed hundreds of thousands of their people.  Know why? They were fighting for control of the Middle East and that enormous oil supply.



At that time, they were preoccupied with their internal problems and could care less about toppling the west.  Oil prices were fairly stable and we could not see an immediate threat.  Well, the worst part of what we have done as a nation in Iraq is to do away with the military capability of one of those nations.  Now, Iran has a clear field to dominate the Middle East, since Iraq is no longer a threat to them. They have turned their attention to the only other threat to their dominance, they are convinced they will win, because the US is so divided, and the Democrats (who now control Congress and may control the Presidency in 2008) have openly said we are pulling out.



Do you have any idea what will happen if the entire Middle East turns their support to Iran , which they will obviously do if we pull out?  It is not the price of oil we will have to worry about.  Oil WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE to this country at any price.  I personally would vote for any presidential candidate who did what JFK did with the space program---declare a goal to bring this country to total energy independence in a decade.



Yes, it is about oil.  The economy in this country will totally die if that Middle East supply is cut off right now.  It will not be a recession. It will be a depression that will make 1929 look like the "good-old-days ". The bottom line here is simple.  If Iran is forced to fall in line, the fighting in Iraq will end over night, and the nightmare will be over.

One way or another, Iran must be forced to join modern times and the global community.  It may mean a real war---if so, now is the time, before we face a nuclear Iran with the capacity to destroy  Israel and begin a new ice age.



I urge you to read the book "END GAME" by two of our best Middle East experts, true American patriots and retired military generals, Paul Vallely and Tom McInerney.  They are our finest, and totally honest in their assessment of why victory in the Middle East is so important, and how it can be won.  Proceeds for the book go directly to memorial fund for our fallen soldiers who served the country during the war on terror.  You can find that book by going to the internet through Stand-up America at www.ospreyradio.us or www.rightalk.com.

On the other hand, we have several very angry retired generals today, who evidently have not achieved their lofty goals, and insist on ranting and raving about the war.  They are wrong, and doing the country great harm by giving a certain political party reason to use them as experts to back their anti-war claims.



You may be one of those who believe nothing could ever be terrible enough to support our going to war.  If that is the case , I should stop here, as that level of thinking approaches mental disability in this day and age.  It is right up there with alien abductions and high altitude seeding through government aircraft contrails.  I helped produce those contrails for almost 30 years, and I can assure you we were not seeding the atmosphere.  The human race is a war-like population, and if a country is not willing to protect itself, it deserves the consequences. Nuff -said!!!



Now, my last comments will get to the nerve.  They will be on politics. I am not a Republican.  And, George Bush has made enough mistakes as President to insure my feelings about that for the rest of my life. However, the Democratic Party has moved so far left, they have made me support those farther to the right.  I am a conservative who totally supports the Constitution of this country.  The only difference between the United States and the South American, third world, dictator infested and ever-changing South American governments, is our US Constitution.



This Republic (note I did not say Democracy) is the longest standing the  world has ever known, but it is vulnerable.  It would take so little to  change it through economic upheaval.  There was a time when politicians could disagree, but still work together.  We are past that time, and that is the initial step toward the downfall of our form of government.



I think that many view Bush-hating as payback time.  The Republicans hated the Clinton 's and now the Democrats hate Bush.  So, both parties are putting their hate toward willingness to do anything for political dominance to include lying and always taking the opposite stand just for the sake of being opposed.  



JUST HOW GOOD IS THAT FOR OUR COUNTRY?

In my lifetime, after serving in uniform for Presidents Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, and Bush, I have a pretty good feel for which party supported our military, and what military life was like under each of their terms.  And, let me assure you that times were best under the Republicans.



Service under Jimmy Carter was devastating for all branches of the military. And, Ronald Regan was truly a salvation.  You can choose to listen to enriched newscasters, and foolish people like John Murtha (he is no war hero), Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Michael Moore, Jane Fonda , Harry Reid, Russ Feingold, Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy, and on-and-on to include the true fools in Hollywood if you like.  If you do, your conclusions will be totally wrong.



The reason that I write, appear on radio talk shows, and do everything I can to denounce those people is simple.  THEY ARE PUTTING THEIR THIRST  FOR POLITICAL POWER AND QUEST FOR VICTORY IN 2008 ABOVE WHAT IS BEST FOR THIS COUNTRY.  I cannot abide that. Pelosi clearly defied the Logan Act by going to Syria , which should have lead to imprisonment of three years and a heavy fine.



Jane Fonda did more to prolong the Vietnam war than any other human being (as acknowledged by Ho Chi Minh in his writing before he died). She truly should have been indicted for treason, along with her radical husband, Tom Hayden, and forced to pay the consequences.

This country has started to soften by not enforcing its laws, which is another indication of a Republic about to fall.  All Democrats, along with the Hollywood elite, are sending us headlong into a total defeat in the Middle East, which will finally give Iran total dominance in the region. A lack of oil in the near future will be the final straw that dooms this Republic.  However, if we refuse to let this happen and really get serious about an energy self-sufficiency program, this can be avoided.  I am afraid, however, that we are going in the opposite direction.



If we elect Hillary Clinton and a Democrat-controlled congress, and they carry through with allowing Iran to take control of the Middle East, continue to refuse development of nuclear energy, refuse to allow drilling for new oil, and continue to do nothing but oppose everything Bush, it will be over in terms of what we view as the good life in the USA .

Now, do I think that all who do not support the war are un-American -- of course not.  They just do not understand the importance of total victory in that region.  Another failure of George Bush is his inability to explain to the American people why we are there, and why we MUST win.  By the way, it is not a war.  The war was won four years ago.  It is martial law that is under attack by Iranian and Syrian outside influences, and there is a difference.



So, what do I believe?  What is the bottom line?  I will simply say that the Democratic Party has fielded the foulest, power hungry, anti-country, self -absorbed group of individuals that I have observed in my lifetime.  Our educational system is partially to blame for allowing the mass of  America to be taken in by this group.  George Bush has done the best he can with the disabilities that he possesses.



A President must communicate with the people.  And, I would tell you that Desert Storm spoiled the people.  Bush Senior's 100-hour war convinced the people that technology has progressed to the point that wars could be fought with no casualties and won in very short periods of time.  I remember feeling at the time, that this was a tragedy for the US military.



To win wars, you must put boots on the ground. When you put boots on the ground, soldiers are going to die.  A President must make the war decision wisely, and insure that the cause is right before using his last political option.  However, CONTROLLING IRAN AND DEMOCRATIZING THE MIDDLE EAST IS THE ONLY CHOICE IF WE ARE HELL-BENT ON DEPENDING ON THEM FOR OUR FUTURE ENERGY NEEDS.

Jimmy L. Cash, Brig. Gen., USAF  (Ret.)
Lakeside, Montana 59922



"I'll tell you what war is all about, you've got to kill people,

and when you've killed enough, they stop fighting."

Gen. Curtis LeMay

Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 13, 2008, 08:27:17 pm
That's MISTER Arrogant Bastard, to you.


Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: danickstr on February 13, 2008, 08:37:08 pm
Gee, Barry, you reminded me I have the "It's mister asshole to you" button floating around somewhere.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 14, 2008, 01:16:04 pm
CAPTION THIS PICTURE ANYONE?index.php/fa/7627/0/
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: danickstr on February 14, 2008, 08:38:50 pm
What asshole photoshopped a cigarette in the mouth of the presidential nominee that is twice as intelligent as our current p[resident?

Howz that for a caption?
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 15, 2008, 12:51:58 am
studiojimi wrote on Thu, 14 February 2008 12:16

CAPTION THIS PICTURE ANYONE?index.php/fa/7627/0/


CAPTION: I'm sick of them tryin' to autotune the blues.  I'm gonna try this president thing.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 15, 2008, 02:07:23 am
danickstr wrote on Thu, 14 February 2008 17:38

What asshole photoshopped a cigarette in the mouth of the presidential nominee that is twice as intelligent as our current p[resident?

Howz that for a caption?



i don't have photoshop
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Tomas Danko on February 15, 2008, 04:30:28 am
studiojimi wrote on Fri, 15 February 2008 07:07

danickstr wrote on Thu, 14 February 2008 17:38

What asshole photoshopped a cigarette in the mouth of the presidential nominee that is twice as intelligent as our current p[resident?

Howz that for a caption?



i don't have photoshop


Are you implying that you are an asshole?

Twisted Evil

Hey, just because you don't have Photoshop it doesn't have to mean you didn't do it using some other piece of software! Wink
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: J.J. Blair on February 15, 2008, 12:24:39 pm
Obama quit smoking when he started his candidacy.  It was one of the conditions his wife gave him for allowing him to run.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 15, 2008, 12:39:51 pm
Yes, because she had to give up "chawing".


Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: studiojimi on February 15, 2008, 01:19:37 pm
Tomas Danko wrote on Fri, 15 February 2008 01:30

studiojimi wrote on Fri, 15 February 2008 07:07

danickstr wrote on Thu, 14 February 2008 17:38

What asshole photoshopped a cigarette in the mouth of the presidential nominee that is twice as intelligent as our current p[resident?

Howz that for a caption?



i don't have photoshop


Are you implying that you are an asshole?

Twisted Evil

Hey, just because you don't have Photoshop it doesn't have to mean you didn't do it using some other piece of software! Wink



only an asshole would imply that i'm implying that i'm an asshole.
Title: Re: If you want a Democratic president, don't vote for Hillary.
Post by: Tomas Danko on February 17, 2008, 01:00:54 pm
studiojimi wrote on Fri, 15 February 2008 18:19

Tomas Danko wrote on Fri, 15 February 2008 01:30

studiojimi wrote on Fri, 15 February 2008 07:07

danickstr wrote on Thu, 14 February 2008 17:38

What asshole photoshopped a cigarette in the mouth of the presidential nominee that is twice as intelligent as our current p[resident?

Howz that for a caption?



i don't have photoshop


Are you implying that you are an asshole?

Twisted Evil

Hey, just because you don't have Photoshop it doesn't have to mean you didn't do it using some other piece of software! Wink



only an asshole would imply that i'm implying that i'm an asshole.


Well, I don't have Photoshop either. Smile