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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => j. hall => Topic started by: NelsonL on October 23, 2007, 09:32:30 pm

Title: Mix Plus
Post by: NelsonL on October 23, 2007, 09:32:30 pm
Hey all--

Thinking about the following as a possible rig:

Our current Dual G4, with the following new/used purchases:

Mix Plus Core

Mix Plus Farm

ADAT bridge

Lynx Aurora 16

I'm not too worried about 48k as a limitation--

So, I guess I'm wondering-- what's the downside?

Thx.

Liam
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: Podgorny on October 23, 2007, 09:39:39 pm

If you're mixing on a console, and never open anyone else's sessions, you'll be fine.

But if you're mixing ITB or wanting to open .ptf (version 7.x) files, you'll want an HD rig.




Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: NelsonL on October 23, 2007, 10:59:08 pm
Well, we have a Ghost-- but I do currently mix my problem children in the box for ease of recalls...

I guess I could keep my m-box handy and export regions?

We're almost never going to have their plugins anyway, and I find it best to strip other people's automation when I take something on. I can send them raw tracks if they need their own session settings.

I guess that'd be annoying--  we really don't get a lot of outside sessions. Although, we just shared a project with Aaron from Tiny Telephone and I believe he was actually rocking PT5.

Hmm---
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: j.hall on October 23, 2007, 11:28:50 pm
adat bridge?

the lynx aurora will hook up directly to your farm cards, no?

or is that an HD only thing?

many people are still using mix+ rigs with sucess.

i'd worry more about the G4 keeping up with high track counts then anything.

Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: NelsonL on October 24, 2007, 12:17:49 am
If the adat bridge is unecessary then all the better. I thought the aurora host card thing was PT HD only though, but now I don't know why I thought that per se.

So high track counts might ba a problem? I was hoping that the TDM cards would cover that and actually allow me to get away with higher RTAS usage. My logic being that the system would be less strained than say a 32 track PTLE session.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: TheViking on October 24, 2007, 12:22:34 pm
Liam,

Mix Plus is still very cool and you'd be surprised at who is still making amazing records with those old PT rigs.   If you have any specific questions about Mix Plus, give me a shout.

I think you will need that ADAT bridge if you want to interface that Lynx unit to a Mix Plus rig.   It was my understanding that the ProTools interface option for those converters is for HD users only.

Helpful hint...   rock PT5 on OS9 and milk that for as long as you can.   I think it sounds better overall and there are some plugs that are only available for this scenario that I also found extremely useful.   Lexiverb was awesome!

Good luck man!  
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: NelsonL on October 24, 2007, 02:11:49 pm
Cool-- thanks all.

Lexiverb is one of the plugins that Aaron was using, I know because he printed his effects when he did the rough mixes, which we were adding vox to.

I don't think either of our G4's will boot OS9 though.

Can anyone ball park current Mix Core and Mix Farm prices?
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: compasspnt on October 25, 2007, 01:20:13 pm
I am still working personally on my Mix cubed TDM system, but of course have changed the I/O to the Apogee AD-X/DA-X conversion, which is many, many miles better than the Digi...better even than current HD.

I far prefer the older 888/24's for interfacing and functionality.

The only downside is if one wants to track @ higher than 48/24.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: j.hall on October 26, 2007, 09:42:18 am
i think 96k sounds a bit better, but am not willing to sacrifice the processing power to do it.  doesn't seem like a fair trade off for me just yet.

24/48 is perfectly fine.

sorry liam, your track counts will be fine, i dropped back to my LE brain when commenting on the G4.

ADAT bridge is a must, you are correct.

the one bummer about mixing ITB with mix+ is you don't get any delay compensation, and i've noticed on my HD rig that it makes a HUGE difference in the drums.

just keep an eye on it.

why would OS9 make PT sound any better or worse?
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: compasspnt on October 26, 2007, 12:30:54 pm
j.hall wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 09:42


the one bummer about mixing ITB with mix+ is you don't get any delay compensation, and i've noticed on my HD rig that it makes a HUGE difference in the drums.

just keep an eye on it.


Yeah, I don't mix "in the box," so this is not an issue, unless I am using a plugin on something that needs its time integrity maintained...in that case, it's just "nudge 'til it works" time.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: NelsonL on October 26, 2007, 12:32:07 pm
I was emailing a bit with a Mix Plus seller on CL who told me that I'd be able to run PT 6.4 and that it would support ADC-- are you saying that ADC evolved further subsequently, or that this dude was wrong or even blowing smoke?  

One of my fellow engineers here feels like it might make more sense to keep the LE rig and invest in a UA 2192 for OD's and printing mixes. I kind of think the Lynx is likely enough of an improvement for now, and would do transfers/tracking/mixes all quite well, but at 48K.

We could possibly swing a Mytek later and print to the masterlink at 96K.  
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: TheViking on October 28, 2007, 07:13:29 pm
One of the reasons I upgraded my Mix system to HD was for the ADC so, unless I was missing something, you have to be running an HD system in order to take full advantage of the ADC functions in ProTools.   That guy may be a little confused.   ADC is available in v6.4 software, but only to HD hardware users.

It was just my opinion J, but I felt that the v5 ProTools software sounded better than v6.   None of it is an issue for me now because IMO v7 sounds awesome!
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: j.hall on October 29, 2007, 12:21:34 pm
i was always told, and under the assumption, that ADC was HD only as well.

kevin, i thought you were talking about OS 9 itself made PT sound better.  nevermind, i understand now.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: brett on October 29, 2007, 02:47:13 pm
ADC is only available if you use DP 4.52 on a 10.3.4 machine. If you go higher with the OS DP will have DAE errors. And DAE in DP isn't really the same thing. It's DP!

I currently run a mix plus on a dual 1.42 g4 on os 10.3.9. I had to revert quicktime back to 6 as quicktime 7 on os 10.3 will kill the PT drivers. Everything is smooth on 10.3.9 with PT 6.4.1. I use a apogee rosetta 800 connected directly to the PT cards via a x-digi-mix card installed in the rosetta 800. For 16 channels of I/O, the ad/da16x route would be best. And a mix cube is really needed if you want to do any kind of heavy bussing. I max out my mix plus TDM busses all the time. since you can't run RTAS on the aux's it can be limiting. I really think a PTLE system with the 48 ch upgrade on a new mac pro is more powerful than PT Mixplus. Neither have automatic delay compensation. Also, if you use any intensive plugs like soundtoys etc. you should add another farm.

I have been thinking of upgrading to a mac pro as I have really gotten into using Logic Pro. If you are in the market for a PT mix plus with a rosetta 800 front end, hit me up with a private message. I am in Los Angeles.    
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: Iain Graham on November 01, 2007, 08:53:16 am
ADC is HD only, the mix cards don't have enough power to handle it.

I believe it was launched with 6.4, but the HD and mix versions of 6.4 are pretty different. 6.4 for mix is really a one off. Like the odd versions you get when new LE hardware comes out.

When my mBox2 came, I was on 6.8.* and that was mBox2 only. 6.4 mix is the same vibe. I also have a feeling it's now unsupported. It's been long enough.

At this point in time, I'd say don't buy a mix system. An HD1 and a Mac Pro is bags of power nowadays, if you can afford it. If not, an LE rig and a modernish mac will probably sound better, have more power, etc.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: NelsonL on November 01, 2007, 12:01:06 pm
Why would the LE rig sound better?


Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: j.hall on November 01, 2007, 12:23:27 pm
the only possible reason i can think of that LE would sound better is that you would get the version 7 mixer.

personally, i can't say it's worth the money investment for the computer (which you already own the dual G4)

with the mix+ rig you get TDM support, which is a big deal for your G4.  i honestly think this is a well thought through path liam.  if you see it increasing business, which brings more money in the door, i wouldn't hesitate to do it.

growing a business is always scary, but if you see a need, it's stupid to not fill it (in a well thought out way) and keep all these clients coming back and feeling taken care of.

from everything you've indicated, this is a move you need to make.

make it fit the budget, while maximizing it's usefullness.  seems like you've done that.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: Tomas Danko on November 01, 2007, 12:55:18 pm
rattleyour wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 16:01

Why would the LE rig sound better?





Floating point, perhaps?

But also comparing the higher sample-rate + converters compared to the old Mix system, along with the new mixing engine.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: NelsonL on November 01, 2007, 01:26:39 pm
Tomas Danko wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 09:55

rattleyour wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 16:01

Why would the LE rig sound better?





Floating point, perhaps?

But also comparing the higher sample-rate + converters compared to the old Mix system, along with the new mixing engine.


The main point of the Mix+ system for me, would be to fully implement an Aurora 16, so you have to weigh that in the equation.

Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: j.hall on November 01, 2007, 02:00:18 pm
my aurora sounds great!  you'll love it.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: brett on November 03, 2007, 06:40:30 am
Iain Graham wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 12:53

ADC is HD only, the mix cards don't have enough power to handle it.




ADC has nothing to do with the TDM cards. It is CPU controlled as it is adjusting the time at which samples are played back from the disk. That is CPU controlled in all DAWs including PT. ADC is availble using PT MIX systems when Digital Performer is the front end. But I never got the system running smooth. So there is no ADC in PT LE or MIX because DigiDesign wants you to have an incentive to buying HD. Built in redundancy. I also do not beleive there is the issue with the PCI bus as stated as the reason to abandon MIX, It is very feasable that a driver could have been written that allowed core audio on G5's to run properluy with the quicktime 7 using an expansion chassis.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: Iain Graham on November 04, 2007, 09:34:15 pm
The conversion and the mix engine would be the reason for me for going LE and not Mix. I had forgotten about the better conversion though, so that would change the equation somewhat.


Quote:

ADC has nothing to do with the TDM cards.


The amount of power used by the mix engine increases when you turn ADC on. And the chips have a name associated with it. Even if the CPU is involved, the delay times will come from the TDM buss as that's where the mix engine and some of the plug-in times are coming from. Even RTAS processed channels will go back into the TDM buss for summing.

You're very right about the redundancy though.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: brett on November 05, 2007, 12:16:01 am
Iain Graham wrote on Mon, 05 November 2007 02:34

The conversion and the mix engine would be the reason for me for going LE and not Mix. I had forgotten about the better conversion though, so that would change the equation somewhat.


Quote:

ADC has nothing to do with the TDM cards.


The amount of power used by the mix engine increases when you turn ADC on. And the chips have a name associated with it. Even if the CPU is involved, the delay times will come from the TDM buss as that's where the mix engine and some of the plug-in times are coming from. Even RTAS processed channels will go back into the TDM buss for summing.

You're very right about the redundancy though.


ADC does not occur at the TDM bus level, nor does is add any processing to the tdm engine or cards. ADC occurs at the software level and is processed by the CPU. The host accesses the delay times from each time slot on a channel regardless of whether it is native or TDM and the host inserts the needed time to other tracks with less latency. This occurs before the audio is even accesed from the disk and before it is tranfered to the TDM bus. This is why Digital Performer was able to add ADC when running DP as a front end to the TDM DAE engine on PT mix systems. There is no reason why ADC could not be added to both PT LE and PT Mix systems other than marketing reasons.    
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: j.hall on November 05, 2007, 12:16:27 pm
brett wrote on Sun, 04 November 2007 23:16

There is no reason why ADC could not be added to both PT LE and PT Mix systems other than marketing reasons.    


for LE, i can agree.  but mix?  a company that exists in the technology world has to, at some point, srop support of old products to continue to push forward and be competitve in the market place.  we can all be pissed at digi for various things, but allocating capital to support the mix systems is not something i'd like to see them do.  as it raises their overhead, and increases the price of their products to the consumer.  their prices are already high enough.

ADC makes the biggest noticeable difference in your drum tracks.  other then that, i simply take comfort in knowing all the other tracks are still time aligned.

Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: Iain Graham on November 06, 2007, 08:24:58 am
When you turn ADC on in an HD rig, more chips on the HD cards are assigned to the mix engine, and the process name given to those chips is for ADC "mixer long delays" or something like that for instance.

Whether any of the processing is done there or not is a different issue. DP does ADC with or without PT hardware, doesn't it? Why would they then force it to use the process cards for work in a mix environment.

For digi, mix is a dead system, and was when ADC was introduced. They would never add such a feature to an old product, no one would.

ADC is one of the carrots to get users to buy an HD system. Maybe that's why turning it on uses up chips on the cards?
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: rankus on November 06, 2007, 02:24:49 pm
Iain Graham wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 05:24


ADC is one of the carrots to get users to buy an HD system. Maybe that's why turning it on uses up chips on the cards?


I run Nuendo which has full ADC and I did not notice much if any increase in CPU usage when it was introduced... In other words it does not take very much horsepower to run ADC ... I agree that Digi is simply trying to up-sell to the HD system... and it's working.  I am considering the move across to PT but the staggering price difference just for ADC upsets my stomach.  


Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: brett on November 06, 2007, 02:53:21 pm
I get that mix is dead, but the argument that Mix systems don't have the power to run ADC as stated above is just completely wrong. If digital performer can do it when running the DAE why couldn't PT. And the fact that the ADC is using up slots on the card is just their way of keeping it HD only. If they did it nativly they would have no excuse for not implimenting it in LE. ADC does not have to use the cards DSP as it works fine in the TDM environment inside DP. It also would have been apropriate to make the final version of PT for mix run on 7 and osx 10.4 instead of abandoning it at 10.3.4. There are a lot of studios still using mix systems. Especially studios who use consoles and outboard to mix. PT 6.4.1 does actually work well on 10.3.9 as long as you do not install quicktime 7.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: NelsonL on November 06, 2007, 05:31:08 pm
Well, I'm moving forward... slowly.

For now I'm just buying the ADAT bridge, it's silly cheap and they don't seem to turn up that often on eBay. At least in the few months I've been paying attention.

Mix ain't dead, it's just working the state fair circuit opening up for Y&T.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: brett on November 07, 2007, 02:36:52 pm
LOL.... that's good.

i love working in PT with my Mix system and do not sotice a bit of diference when on an HD rig. I record and mix at 24/44 so HD doesn't matter to me. I have started using a lot of native intensive applications for sampling and amp modeling. This is why I have to upgrade. For the rock band and acoustic instrumentalist PT Mix is a viable solution still. My freind runs a successful studio and they run Mix cube on a dual 1.25 g4 on OS9. Granted they sum into an SSL which is why clients probably come. They see no imediate reason to change anything.

The ADAT bridge is cool but running an apogee front end via a x-digi card is truely integrated. Let me know if you want a mix plus. I am getting ready to sell mine with a nice set of plugs on the ilok.    
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: NelsonL on November 07, 2007, 04:53:03 pm
Thanks Brett--

But things have evolved and I have to move slow at the moment purchase wise.

Plus, the Aurora 16 is in part for transfers off of our 2" 16 track, so while a Rosetta 800 might be nice it's not enough channels.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: brett on November 11, 2007, 12:14:47 am
cool... best of luck with you upgrades.
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: Berolzheimer on November 26, 2007, 07:05:26 pm
RE: ADC I thnk you guys are missing one salient point here- The way Digi has implemented it, it depends on dsp on the TDM bus,  and that's why they never implemented it for Mix hardware.  Yes, turning on ADC in PT 6> on HD hardware uses more DSP chips, because that's how Protools does it.  DP & Nuendo are using the CPU and 32 bit FP processing, but the PT TDM mixer uses 48 bit fixed math, which depends on the TDM dsp chips.  
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: quantumpsych on November 29, 2007, 11:20:23 am
i just nabbed a mix core off ebay for under $500 with shipping Shocked . the average over the past six months has been $700. also got an 888/24 for $300. i love the way those things sound, and yes i know they're nowhere near transparent. good luck with the system building!
Title: Re: Mix Plus
Post by: Michael Petkau on December 28, 2007, 04:15:13 am
re: Opening other peoples' sessions:
Just have them "Save Session Copy In"... you can save sessions as any old PT version.  Saved my ass a couple times before we finally did our upgrade last month.