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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => j. hall => Topic started by: j.hall on October 15, 2007, 11:34:35 am

Title: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on October 15, 2007, 11:34:35 am
the RAR file is on the server.  greg dixon is supplying tracks, i have no idea the bit depth and sample rate.  pretty sure he told me, but i can't find it at the moment.

you have one week (next monday)

Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Adam Miller on October 15, 2007, 04:50:08 pm
I have a feeling that i'm missing a cowbell and cymbal track... they only show up as fragments of files in the .rar
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 15, 2007, 06:06:23 pm
Adam Miller wrote on Tue, 16 October 2007 06:50

I have a feeling that i'm missing a cowbell and cymbal track... they only show up as fragments of files in the .rar



That's weird. There was a cowbell and cymbal track, but I removed them from the folder, as they were never used (and sounded a bit stupid). No idea how or why that would show up? I downloaded the rar to a different computer after up loading it and I didn't get them.

There should be 28 tracks of audio. Kick, snare, toms, O/H, hats, mono room, bass, 3x acoustic guitars, 2x hammond tracks, a Nord synth, fretless bass, sax, 4x vocal.

The files are 44.1 16 bit.

Have fun.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: ATOR on October 15, 2007, 06:07:54 pm
Adam Miller wrote on Mon, 15 October 2007 22:50

I have a feeling that i'm missing a cowbell and cymbal track... they only show up as fragments of files in the .rar


Yup, the cowbell, cymbal and a stick track only have their ghost wavs in the rar.


edit: Greg has answered this while I was typing.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 15, 2007, 06:09:45 pm
OK, just ignore them, they aren't needed. Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: SingSing on October 16, 2007, 05:55:35 am
Great song Greg!

Very different from the other ones...


All the best,

Stefan
SingSing
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 17, 2007, 01:05:43 am
Thanks Stefan,

I can only claim credit for the engineering though. I had very little to do with the song arrangement.

I did think you'd all enjoy this one though. I know I did. Very Happy
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: cymatics on October 17, 2007, 09:23:05 am
Dammit.

I'm stuck in Chicago for the week for training for the day job.

I have REAPER on my work laptop and a decent pair of Sennheiser cans, so I'll mess with it as much as I can.  Sad

Greg, the tracks sound phenomenal!


- jon
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: SingSing on October 17, 2007, 11:11:32 am
Greg Dixon wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 07:05

Thanks Stefan,

I can only claim credit for the engineering though. I had very little to do with the song arrangement.

I did think you'd all enjoy this one though. I know I did. Very Happy


I should have been more clear....the recording is stellar.

Now, what to do with that sax.....   Very Happy


All the best,

Stefan
SingSing
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 17, 2007, 11:14:37 am
Saxophone will always be the hardest instrument in the world for me to take seriously.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: cymatics on October 17, 2007, 12:09:35 pm
SingSing wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 16:11


Now, what to do with that sax.....   Very Happy



Ha!

I though it was just me.  

The sax melody line works just fine, I just find the voice of that instrument inconsistent with the vibe of the song.  It's almost like having Professor Frink from the Simpson's sing the backing vocal.


- jon
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: mcsnare on October 17, 2007, 01:38:32 pm
I'm heavily digging that ghost cowbell. Wait til you guys hear what I did with it.
Dave
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on October 17, 2007, 03:18:37 pm
M Carter wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 10:14

Saxophone will always be the hardest instrument in the world for me to take seriously.



bill clinton eh?
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: garret on October 18, 2007, 12:44:27 am
I'm not really reading this thread yet, since I like to keep my ears from getting tricked by what I read...

but I can post this: thanks for the track, Greg.  It's different... and it can go a lot of different ways... i'll post some more specific comments later, but I don't want to predispose anyone's mixing.   I am interested in hearing how everyone heard and interpreted the tracks.. how they represented this band in their mix.

My mix is almost done, and I think I like it... it came together quickly... much more of a "faders up" mix than I usually find possible.

-Garret
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on October 18, 2007, 10:46:27 am
I don't know if it was intended to be recorded that way, but I had trouble with the sax. It sounded more like a trumpet. It took a lot to get that woodwind, air blowing texture out of it. I like the way it ended up though. it's almost like different instruments blending back and forth. Pretty cool.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 18, 2007, 06:49:29 pm
I just personally despise the saxophone.  As an instrument.

Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: scottoliphant on October 18, 2007, 09:08:54 pm
M Carter wrote on Thu, 18 October 2007 17:49

I just personally despise the saxophone.  As an instrument.




somehow i feel less animosity toward baritone sax than alto sax?
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 18, 2007, 09:56:31 pm
agreed.

A fat dude playing alto just looks... .wrong...
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 18, 2007, 10:55:35 pm
It was a skinny girl playing soprano.... where does that leave us?
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 18, 2007, 11:34:10 pm
Kenny G.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: cymatics on October 19, 2007, 12:14:51 am
I had a woman brought in as a session player who was about 5'4" and had a kinda long and lanky build.  She played baritone sax... and she fuckin rocked that thing.

The best part was her name.

Rose Hammer.

I shit you not.


How cool is that?


- jon
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: typek on October 19, 2007, 01:01:47 pm
I really like the sax in there.. not really as an up front thing, but I think it adds nice texture.. I like how it just sorta creeps in and out.. I have my session booked at school for sat night to do my mix, I can't wait.  Look forward to being involved in my first IMP Smile
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: briefcasemanx on October 19, 2007, 09:55:12 pm
Saxophone and horns are my favorite instruments and belong in every rock band. I'm serious. I just can't stop thinking about horns!
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: cymatics on October 20, 2007, 10:29:11 am
Who would have thought sax would be such a polarizing instrument?  It's not like it's a truly offensive instrument...


... like banjo or accordian. Razz
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 20, 2007, 11:18:34 am
Banjo's and accordians are WAY more acceptable to me.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on October 20, 2007, 02:40:06 pm
interesting.

wouldn't have thought banjo could trump anything.

Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 20, 2007, 03:09:08 pm
My banjo can kick your sax's ass any day.

Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 20, 2007, 07:56:59 pm
Has anyone worked out what the lyrics are about? It took me a while.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 20, 2007, 08:06:13 pm
Environmental Terrorism?
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: garret on October 21, 2007, 01:46:36 am
Sufjan Stevens has single-handedly rescued the banjo.  Huzzah, thank you Sufjan.

The sax track is essential to this tune.

Dudes who hate the sax:  Go listen to some John Lurie records.  And some Morphine.   And of course, some jazz.. paul desmond, gerry mulligan, coltrane, wayne shorter, sonny rollins, etc.

I hear "In a Silent Way" in a lot of this tune.  Not hippy stuff... I think this could be mixed to be a Blind Melon tune, but it'd be a damn shame.

Buzzy vox... that's my big complaint... I guess it's a voice thing... it sounds like a swarm of beeez at times, when you get the lead vox and 2x harmony joining in.  I can't seem to roll it out... there's just so much 8khz bzzzing away.

Sorry for the ramblings... got at the single malt tonight. Wink

-Garret
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: ATOR on October 21, 2007, 04:15:54 pm
Quote:

The sax track is essential to this tune.


Well the sax wasn't essential to my mix, it just didn't fit the tune the way I heard it. Neither did the hammond  Very Happy  I had to force myself to leave some in.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 21, 2007, 04:40:50 pm
Garrett -

I was subjected to intense amounts of Jazz and jam bands in school... it didn't make me appreciate the sax any more than I already didn't.

Smile

Matt
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: garret on October 21, 2007, 06:15:52 pm
ATOR wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 16:15

Quote:

The sax track is essential to this tune.


Well the sax wasn't essential to my mix, it just didn't fit the tune the way I heard it. Neither did the hammond  Very Happy  I had to force myself to leave some in.


I'm very interested to here how you pull this off. Your mixes are always very unique, and very good.

Matt:   Laughing  I completely understand.  I think the sax is used for evil more often than any other instrument.   Okay, maybe the electric guitar...  so much wankery in each camp.

-Garret
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 21, 2007, 06:47:26 pm
M Carter wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 10:06

Environmental Terrorism?


No sorry, much more personal than that.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 21, 2007, 07:19:19 pm
I was just screwin with you.

Sounds like some sort of drug addiction or so.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 21, 2007, 07:36:10 pm
No not drugs. You were closer the first time!!
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: chrisj on October 21, 2007, 11:02:04 pm
Can't make this one guys, it's already 11 Sunday night and I'm hip-deep in a plugin development thing trading sound files with some guys on KVR and haven't even set up the tune in Logic. I did download the RAR, but this isn't happening, not even if I skip eating and sleeping.

See ya next time?
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: maxim on October 22, 2007, 01:10:14 am
the sea at bondi beach is indeed closer since a high wind dumped sand up the hill a few months ago

the low tide is where the high tide used to be...
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: slash5969 on October 22, 2007, 11:07:10 am
This song was a lot of fun! Not the type of thing I'm used to, but therein lies much of it's appeal. I liked the ethereal vibe to the vocal - that's where I concentrated my attention in the mix.

Thanks for the great tracks, Greg. I didn't have to waste time and energy getting anything to "sound right", and that made it very enjoyable to work with.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on October 22, 2007, 12:44:18 pm
my mix is printing now.  thanks greg, sounds were great!
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: typek on October 22, 2007, 03:29:44 pm
slash5969 wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 10:07

I didn't have to waste time and energy getting anything to "sound right", and that made it very enjoyable to work with.



yeah. I liked not having to worry much about 'fixing' things, etc.
When I compressed the bass, I did get a loud noise floor sort of hiss so I spent a lot of time editing that out- Can anyone suggest a different approach to this? I don't think that would fly in a professional setting (spending an hour editing out hiss in the silent parts of the track), or would it?. Also, if i may ask what was the bumping sound that the lead hammond track had? a pedal of some sort?  

All in all, It was very enjoyable to work with and very good practice for me.. I had fun with it, but I can't get the tune out of my head.. Twisted Evil
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 22, 2007, 04:13:03 pm
Yeah this one felt relatively easy compared to some of our recent adventures in mixing.  So far it seems like everyone creatively took the same approach of just letting it be what it is.

I'll have mine up tonight after the 10-6pm grind is over.


Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 22, 2007, 06:00:17 pm
typek wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 05:29



When I compressed the bass, I did get a loud noise floor sort of hiss so I spent a lot of time editing that out- Can anyone suggest a different approach to this? I don't think that would fly in a professional setting (spending an hour editing out hiss in the silent parts of the track), or would it?. Also, if i may ask what was the bumping sound that the lead hammond track had? a pedal of some sort?  




The bass was noisy. I'm surprised to hear it took an hour to fix though, assuming you're using a DAW. I just deleted all the parts where he wasn't playing. I'd cleaned it up for the original mix, but got rid of my edits before consolidating the tracks...... I didn't want to make it too easy. Very Happy

The same guy played bass and Hammond and had an aversion to turning up the volume, which left everything close to (or below) the noise floor. Nice guy and good player, just doesn't seem to like volume.

The bass was recorded through my Brownface Bassman, set very quietly. In fact it was so quiet that on one of the other songs, he didn't bother closing the doors to the studio, we didn't notice and you can hear the singer and I talking in a section where he wasn't playing!!! The mic was about 8 metres from where we were in front of the amp and if you turn it up, you can clearly hear what we're saying. That's quiet.

Same with the Hammond. You can hear bleed from the click on one of the Hammond tracks. Once again too quiet. The bumping sound is the speed being switched on the Leslie. It always makes noise, but is normally hidden under the signal. In this case, he had the pedal backed off, so the usual switching noise was there, but without enough level from the organ to mask it.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: audio~geek on October 22, 2007, 10:04:07 pm
After mixing I did a bit of mastering, thats when I noticed the noisy on the song, had to go back and get rid of large chunks of regions and gate the snare more.

Hey Typek for editing out quiet parts you can use strip silence or just use a gate, shouldn't take you an hour.

Hey Greg, whats the name of the Band and tune?
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Doug_H on October 22, 2007, 11:17:24 pm
Well, joined the forum to post in an imp.  

Really surprised at how different all the mixes sound.  Don't know why but I figured they'd all sound the same, some just better than others.

I think I crushed mine too much at the last minute with the limiter, oh well...late night

I don't have a clue how to mix keys so I did the obvious thing and tried to put them as a background with a decent amount of verb.

Cheers

Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: osumosan on October 23, 2007, 12:17:32 am
My Notes. As far as I'm concerned, these are opinions and not criticism. These are things I heard as a listened to each mix. I listened against my idea of what the song should evoke, not stylistically, but emotionally. I guess I was listening a bit like a client...

Garrett
Nice tone on guitars. Not too bright, etc. Vox low mid heavy. Drums a bit removed.

slash5969
Yay echo. Sometimes builds up too much and the vox are too overpowering.
Hihat's (over)ruling
sax is buried and in a different song almost. Ditto on the drums.
Nice treatment on the ad lib.
Vox blown out in places.

Greg Dixon
Great overall balance. Snare a bit muffly. Sax here is a bit disembodied. I don't hear it as a solo instrument, so that colors my comment.

Mac Liam
Overall mix needs bottom and air.
Drums are not unified and a too close for an organic song. Kick snare are compressed to a papery sound.

teleric
Individual drum sounds are well crafted but hit a little hard. Lacks either a psychedelic edge or natural intimacy that the song asks for. Voice gets out of control a couple places.

JasonTompson
Needs bottom. Vox is waaay hard. The EQ is so extreme I expected it to be a telephone EQ. I agree that there was a lot of bottom on the track, maybe you over HP'd it. I can't hear a lot of stuff under it. The instrumental underneath is nice and airy though.

ATOR
Hey Kettle! Pot here sayin' too much compression on the drums. And they overpower the other instruments. The long reverb tail effect is cool and I'd love to hear more of it and more consistency of where it is applied, sticking with one or two sonic spaces. I would notch down the vox, too.

CJWall
Another hard treatment. I don't really think the song should be slamming. The mix is each track is wrapped up in its own treatment pulling the mix away from a unified approach.

Jhall
This has got the bottom. And the mix is close and intimate. Floor tom is clipping? Vox? Organ? Bass? Maybe the mix is clipping. The floor is the one track that seems to be disconnected. Are there gates on the toms. Is the release to quick?

SingSing
Reverb on the cave-y side. Could tone that down. It does give the sax a cool mellotron sound. Vox is well balanced overall but still overpowers the instruments. Nice changeup bringing the drums at the end, but I would crush it a little less to accentuate the smallification of them as a whole.

Osumosan
Need to balance the mix to offset the snare and guitar on the right. Maybe put the vox on the left.  Mix needs air. Vocals need some rides. Oh wait, that's me. Shut up, me.

Kellen-Tyburski
Nice selection for intro and build up. The bass is the entire low end and maybe overpowering when it's just the  bass/organ bass/organ/sax.

Audio Geek
No low end in the drums. Sax isn't slotting into the mix quite right. Using the vocals to pump up the mix is a great idea.

cymatics
I like the vox. Psychedelic like I would expect. I might mod it so that some high end could cycle in there. Guitars are nice and dreamy, too. Why not bring in the drums to the phase party at the end! I thought this mix really captured the feeling of the song. I needed a little audio wasabi after this one to listen to the others.

i-Combs
Very sweet and gentle mix--smooth. The snare could be treated a little more naturally. Sax is in a great place.

careful collapse
like the way it dried up after the intro but didn't like the effects coming back so soon in the middle of things in the first stanza. I did like it when it follows the dynamics later on. Well thought out mix, appropriately and deftly beatlesque. I would consider some instruments coming in on "the sea is growing closer"

M Carter
Avoiding the sax, eh? It's a bit too off in the corner even though I agree that it's accompaniment. Best use of the room sound/OH. The high organ sits right in that same room and the snare is snappy and natural.

mcsnare
Has a sound like I'm listening to vinyl. The vox are kept in check. Very polished. I like.

Doug_H
What's that subsonic on the left? The mix is a bit mono. A bit pushed in the high mids on the snare (room?)

darkhorseporter
To me it sounds like everything except the guitars and vox are in a different room.
There's a buzzy resonance in the voice.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 23, 2007, 08:58:42 am
slash5969 wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 01:07


Thanks for the great tracks, Greg. I didn't have to waste time and energy getting anything to "sound right", and that made it very enjoyable to work with.


j.hall wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 02:44

my mix is printing now.  thanks greg, sounds were great!


Audio~Geek wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 12:04


Hey Greg, whats the name of the Band and tune?


I'm really enjoying hearing what you've all done with my work. It's pretty rare for me to not mix what I've tracked.

Ok, so a bit of info that might interest some of you and shouldn't interfere with the reviews.

This started out as an EP for a guy named Chris Stewart.

When he started recording, the only other permanent member of the band, was Tim the drummer. By the time the EP came out, they'd found a permanent bassplayer and become a band Guava. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewpro file&friendID=227105293
The mastered version of my real mix is on their site. The song is called 'Potplants'. I did 'Falling World' that's there too.

The tooty organ part wasn't used in the released version. The producer (Rohan Mansley) and I loved it, but Chris didn't.

There wasn't sax on the song originally. They were ready to master when they decided that as there was now sax in the band it should be on the EP somewhere.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 23, 2007, 10:07:48 am
That explains why the sax doesn't fit then eh?  Smile

I'll get to my reviews later on.  
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on October 23, 2007, 11:22:05 am
osumosan wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 23:17

JasonTompson
Needs bottom. Vox is waaay hard. The EQ is so extreme I expected it to be a telephone EQ. I agree that there was a lot of bottom on the track, maybe you over HP'd it. I can't hear a lot of stuff under it. The instrumental underneath is nice and airy though.



Then I guess I did it right!  Very Happy

The vocal and the beat were the biggest things for me. Everything else was literally "light and airy". I wanted the drums and vox to be in your face. I did a high pass on the vox because once I crushed and distorted it, it was noisy under there (big suprise... I know).

It seemed like he was talking about global warming or something. I got the that one plant was dying and one was growing green. Man, I went with it. Dirty vox and drums (like pollution) and the light airy stuff under it (pretty green stuff).

That's how I felt. Thanks for the marks.

Jason
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on October 23, 2007, 11:38:36 am
osumosan wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 23:17



Jhall
This has got the bottom. And the mix is close and intimate. Floor tom is clipping? Vox? Organ? Bass? Maybe the mix is clipping. The floor is the one track that seems to be disconnected. Are there gates on the toms. Is the release to quick?



toms are edited to just the hits.  perhaps i compressed them too hard and it shows.

although, noticing something like that is much more an engineer thing.  sometimes i just don't care as i realize that that vast majority of listeners won't ever notice that nor care.  something i learned for an andy wallace mixed record that i love.  the snare is gated so hard that every time it hits it sounds like a crash cymbals is hit too.  something we all would call "wrong" but somethng andy knew didn't matter.

not offering an excuse, just trying to add some perspective.

distortion, that's on the bass.  i multed it, sans amped it and blended it back in.  just tried to blow out the perspective a bit.  something i'm a big fan of recently.  not distorted bass per se....blowing out the perspective.

my reviews have started, i'll get them up soon.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: osumosan on October 23, 2007, 11:47:00 am
J-Texas wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 11:22

Dirty vox and drums (like pollution) and the light airy stuff under it (pretty green stuff).


Shocked Oh no! Pollution wins! The apocalyptic mix. Shocked
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 23, 2007, 11:54:06 am
osumosan wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 23:17


M Carter
Avoiding the sax, eh? It's a bit too off in the corner even though I agree that it's accompaniment. Best use of the room sound/OH. The high organ sits right in that same room and the snare is snappy and natural.




I really tried not to avoid the Sax... although in retrospect I wish I would've edited out some his wankier sections in the song. Thanks for the compliments on the drums, I'm really happy with how this one turned out in a lot of ways.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: osumosan on October 23, 2007, 11:57:32 am
j.hall wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 11:38

although, noticing something like that is much more an engineer thing. sometimes i just don't care as i realize that that vast majority of listeners won't ever notice that nor care. something i learned for an andy wallace mixed record that i love. the snare is gated so hard that every time it hits it sounds like a crash cymbals is hit too. something we all would call "wrong" but somethng andy knew didn't matter.


That gets filed under "whatever serves the song," reminding the technician to step back every now and then and let the gestalt rule. One technique I've found successful in mixing my own band is searching out those wacky, uninterpretable comments from the members of the band (I really mean the singer, in my case) who don't have the lexicon to express what they want to hear. That gets me to thinking how something that shouldn't be able to be done can be done.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 23, 2007, 06:41:59 pm
J-Texas wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 01:22



It seemed like he was talking about global warming or something. I got the that one plant was dying and one was growing green.

Jason


Correct. Global warming is the subject matter.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: maxim on October 23, 2007, 08:14:25 pm
i buried the sax totally, but listening to some mixes, i wish i had kept at least a few sections upfront...
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on October 23, 2007, 08:27:04 pm
maxim wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 19:14

i buried the sax totally, but listening to some mixes, i wish i had kept at least a few sections upfront...


I second that. If I was trying to complete the thought that I was going for, it needed to come up front when the vox weren't strong!
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Doug_H on October 23, 2007, 09:22:41 pm
"What's that subsonic on the left?"

Likely proof that I did a crap job on the keys
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: slash5969 on October 23, 2007, 11:18:24 pm
My notes and comments - keep in mind that I'm new to this whole process, and that I'm here trying to learn. I mean no disrespect to anyone, and just because I liked or disliked something doesn't make it good or bad - it just makes it my rather un-learn-ed opinion. With that being said - here we go.

Garret: I like this mix. Guitars ring out, drums and bass sit well together. I like the air in the vox. Nice job on the ending. I think you "got" the tune.

Greg: You had an unfair advantage - you're obviously much more familiar with the song than the rest of us are. Sax much more up front than I heard it, but man does it work! Nice balance - this mix captures the vibe of the tune perfectly, although I still wanted those "ethereal" vocals. Excellent job - probably my favorite mix of this tune.

Mac: I wanted more air in the vocal. Bass is boomy. I like your drum sounds. Sax weaved in and out rather well. Good ending.

Teleric: Bass was hot enough that it distracted my attention. Vocals missing...something. Did you cut the highs? I like the pop in the snare, and the harmony vox are blended very nicely. I cut some bass and added some treble and this mix came alive. Ending was "busier" than I heard it, but it worked.

J Texas: Crisp drums - I'm diggin' your snare! Clean mix. I like the way you heard the song. Nice balance to everything - I like the presence in the vocals. You used the sax line well. I would have faded that guitar at the end, but I'm sorta pickin' fly shit outta pepper. Another of my favorite takes on this tune.

ATOR: I like the drums - crisp and full. I like the highs in the guitars. I dig the sparseness through the verses, although I missed the keys underneath everything. The swooshing wind thing distracted me a bit, although I like the attempt at some diversity. I missed the melody line during the end passages.

CJ: Live bottom end, but the snare was a distraction. this mix was definately different - I know you went for "rocking", but the tune just struck me as being more delicate. not my cup of tea, but you get kudos for having a unique vision of the song.

Darkhorse: The gunk in the intro was a distraction. Edit out that cough, man! I wanted more life in the guitars through the verses - where did that Nashville go? I got the impression you saw this track a lot "darker" than most of us. I liked the droning keys, but I wanted more air. Nice ending, but pretty busy until the last bar or so.

JHall: Your drums sound good, and they meld well with the bass. Again I'm digging the rather sparse accompanyment during the verses. Everything balances very well - did you ever consider turning pro?  Very Happy  Bass fret noise @ 2:35 threw me - it stood out like a sore thumb in an otherwise seamless mix. Another one of my favorites, and I say that in spite of you being the forum host - not because of it.

Singsing: Where did the drums go? I like the airy vocal and the streamlined vibe, but I wanted drums way before I got them. The "garbage can" snare was a distraction until the bass came in @ 3:38 - then the drums sounded so good that I really missed not having them earlier. I liked the gentle ending, but I missed the sax/melody line there.

Osumosan: Again, good drums! I like the snare a lot. Predominant sax - much more than I heard it. Keys are a bit buried, but it seems to work. More bass than I prefer, but that seems to be a recurring theme in these mixes. The early fade disappointed - I wanted to hear how you handled that end passage.

Typek: Bass hot. Vocal buried a bit. Interesting take on the intro, very clever - except I missed the drums there. I liked the fretless through the ending.

Audio geek: Nice high end, lots of air. Bass again a bit heavy for me, but it's the way it's done apparently. Interesting use of the sax track, much more predominant than I heard it, but it works. Ending a bit busy - less is more sometimes, eh?

Cymatics: Excellent snare! I'm diggin' the pop. Bass heavy again, but I guess I should quit noting it since everyone seems to mix that way. The processed vocals were a distraction - perhaps on alternating lines during the verses? I like the growling keys. I wanted more air in the mix - guitars didn't shimmer, vocals didn't ring. I wanted a gentler ending.

iCombs: Nice balance to this mix. Again I was distracted my the gunk at the beginning. I like the pop in the snare. Solid bottom end without being overpowering, which is easier said than done.

Careful collapse: Hot bass. I like the drone thing through the verses. Nice stereo seperation - the sax jumped out of my left speaker. Verb a bit heavy for my taste, but i did groove on the distance in the vox - I heard them as very ethereal too. This mix held my interest, and I've heard this tune a few hundred times now. Ending was "busy" in a dissonant way - same issue I had when I had everything up til the end.

M Carter: Boomy bass. I wanted more presence in the vocals - i lost that "dreamy" feeling that the song conjures up. The early fade left me feeling cheated - I wanted to hear your take on that ending. I really liked your mix last time out in IMP14, and I was a bit disappointed in this one. "Balz Hanglow" did make me laugh out loud, though.  Laughing

Doug H: This mix was loud. 258K - that's odd. Nice balance though - everything seemed to meld. Drums were a bit "Keith Moon-ish" but it worked. Sax didn't have that "I'm really from a different song" feel to it. Smooth ending.

maxim: I liked the "Leslied" treatment at first, and the way everything dropped out for the verse. Nice bottom end - punchy yet clear and crisp. I liked the dynamics in this mix, although as the song progressed the Leslie thing wore on me after a while. Perhaps if it had been more subtle after the intro? I liked the sparsness of the ending.

mcsnare: After IMP14, I expected to like this mix, and I wasn't disappointed. Crisp drums at the perfect volume. Solid bottom without any boominess. Airy vocals, shimmering and sweet. Nice use of the sax track - it didn't distract my attention and added a nice counterpart to the vox through the chorus. Smooth ending, even with the dissonant lines. Nicely done! Another favorite.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: audio~geek on October 23, 2007, 11:42:01 pm
slash5969 wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 22:18

My notes and comments - keep in mind that I'm new to this whole process, and that I'm here trying to learn. I mean no disrespect to anyone, and just because I liked or disliked something doesn't make it good or bad - it just makes it my rather un-learn-ed opinion. With that being said - here we go.


Audio geek: Nice high end, lots of air. Bass again a bit heavy for me, but it's the way it's done apparently. Interesting use of the sax track, much more predominant than I heard it, but it works. Ending a bit busy - less is more sometimes, eh?



The high end was widened, guess it worked out right.
I'm a bass player, so I like to hear bass, usually I end up doing the opposite though.
You're probably right about the ending. Probably should've dropped the hammond tracks down for the ending, I did very minimal automation on this mix.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: garret on October 24, 2007, 12:05:07 am
Alright, here's my feedback....  this was all written fairly quickly, so there are likely some typos and mistakes.. ask for a clarification if something doesn't make sense.

One thing to mention.. I listened to the mixes blind while writing up my notes...

Cheers,
-Garret
----------


MIXES I PARTICULARLY LIKE

Singsing/   Ooo, starts nice and warm… I like that.   Nicely balanced from the start… now let’s see what happens when the song kicks in…  Vocal sounds great, up-front, natural, but vibey… still no drums… interesting… I tried that, but chickened out.   I was going to cut them from the intro and first verse, but didn’t out of fear of stepping on the client’s intentions.   When you do bring the drums in, I think your treatment is a touch over-the-top… but aside from that, this is a very good mix… one of my favs.    You’ve made the song a haunting meditation, which is how I heard it too.

Carefull collapse/.   Zeppelin-esque… the panned delay on the vox is groovy…  I’m missing the nashville guitar track… where’d it go?   I just hear one acoustic panned left, and the mix is crying out for something over o   n the right…. You’ve treated every track well in this (eq/compression/etc.) and the spectral balance is very good… this mix works, in its own way.

Jhall/  muscular… I’m listening blind, but I think this is a J hall mix.  (YEP!)   It’s got that clean and crispy but pumped up quality you pull off so well…. I have to say that I think the drums are overpowering this mix a bit… At times, I’m struggling to listen to the vocalist and hear all the other instrumentation… then other times the vox is very hot… seems to jump out of the mix… for this song, I actually like that for the out-of-control feeling it creates… (I left a little of that in mine, though it’s more subtle).  There are some cool little string noises you brought out… cool.

Greg Dixon/   nicely balanced… dynamics are under control but not lifeless… vox is natural and sitting nicely on top of the bed….  Achieves that epic quality that the best mixes get in the last chorus…

Garret/   Yah, that's my mix… good balance… a bit more buzziness in the vox than I’d like to hear.   A few spurious noises that could be edited out.  But I like it.

Teleric/  something boxy about this one, but I’m not sure what’s causing it… maybe the drums… vocal level gets a bit out of control at times… maybe hit it a touch harder with the compressor (first time I think I’ve said that about the vocal in any IMP mix.)   I think the bass is a touch loud… overall though, a good, dynamic mix… I like it.

MIXES IN THE MIDDLE

Maxim/.  Not much space at the start… it's generally a good idea to leave 300 msec or so for people to finish hitting the play button before the music starts… you've got about 50msec.  Mix treatment is a spacey at the start..  acoustic on the left is detached from “the band”… maybe try sending to verb panned right.  Vox is too quiet… bass is a touch loud.  Good spectral balance.    Tasteful, creative touches throughout this mix…  good work.

Mcarter/   A bit of a live sound here… at least the start… kinda, um, clubby.  Drums (especially the hats) are too loud for my tastes.. the vox is getting stepped on at times.  But this is a pretty solid mix.

Icombs/ Overpumped drums…. Honestly, the kick hurts my ears on good headphones.  The studio noise at the beginning is interesting… I like it except the cough… a bit too punk rawk for this music I think.   Something unbalanced and boxy about the mix…. I think you might just want to back off the eq and let the tracks ride as is.

Mcsnare/  did you retune the lead vocal?  I heard a couple notes that changed from the original…  not improvements… the melody flattened out in at least one spot (42 seconds in).   Otherwise, this is a pretty good mix… good spectral balance, dynamics under control… I like it… I just wanna know what happened to the vocal…

Doug H/.   in the intro everything’s kinda narrow and far away…. It’s vibey, yah, but a touch lo fi.    The vocal is getting buried at times, but at other times it's way up front...I like this mix anyway for reasons I can’t really explain.

Mac Liam/  bass is a bit loud and thumpy… personally I don’t think the bass is so smokin that it should be featured so much…  otherwise, the spectral balance is good, and this sounds very professional… good work… just tone down the bass.

ATOR: Muscular but still vibey… good work.    Guitars sound good and the mix is nicely balanced…. Okay except the kick which I think is overpumped, and the hi hat, which I think gets distracting.  Watch the lead vocal… it’s getting dominated at times.

AudioGeek/  bright drums, and the bass is too loud and tubby… the vox is getting buried… otherwise, this is not too shabby…. Just get the balances right and this could be a good mix.

Slash5969/   the delay on the vox is too canned and proggy for my tastes.  I think you’d get away with it if you just did it once or twice… but so often, yah, not so much.    the drums are overpowering the vocals.  I like a lot of this mix, but I can't get past the heavy kick drum and the proggy delay.

Osumosan/  Overpumped drums… big pumpy kick..  good vocal treatment in the verses… clear, natural, and up-front, with a bit of something to back it up (delayed verb?).    But in the choruses, the vocals are getting buried and the bass is way too loud.  The volume balance is erratic in this one... get that right.. it's the most important thing you can do.


MIXES THAT NEED A LOT MORE WORK

cymatics  (IMP15.mp3)/.  Overpumped drums… the kick drum is a moose, and I’m not sure why it needs to be.   But I think I say that every IMP… I’m a nonbeliever in the pumpy kick sound that’s very common in indie stuff now.  Vox is too quiet… but I like the eq and effects treatment… a bit telephony, but the extra vibe is good.  Bass is too loud, and the mix is muddy.

Kellen tyburski/.   Interesting idea for the start… I think it could work, if the bass were brought down a lot in level, and the sax brought down a little… when the song starts up the volume falls off, which seems backwards to me…     Bass is too loud throughout.    The song dynamics are too static.. something clamped down about the arrangement now… not much buildup/energy/payoff... try some automation.  Vocal is very quiet...

Jason thompson/    Ooo, this one’s bright.   Lots of 8khz+.      Good that you tried for a bright mix, which is hard to pull off (don’t look at me for an example – my stuff is always dark)…  to me it depends on the singer.. this guy has a voice that is loaded with nasal buzz, so you have to be careful…

CJwall/.   Intense.     It’s hard to appreciate this, when I hear the song so differently… (as almost a prayer).    The drums are huge and mixed way to loud.   The vocal has been ridden hard.. very buzzy and clamped-down…. I can hear the compressor working hard, and it’s fighting the singer too much.  (i.e., when he belts it out, the level should still go up some!).   What's your monitoring situation?

Darkhorsereporter/.  Kinda wussy… not much energy in this… I dunno how, but this mix has turned the song into a dirge.    Vocal has a lot of buzz…  the mix balance is way off… bass is too high and many other instruments are buried in muddy reverb.

Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 24, 2007, 12:12:02 am
garret -

I like the rearrangement of the intro, it's way more subtle this way.  However - where's the kick drum?  The edits in the guitars are nice.  Ballsy to just throw one guitar naked in the left channel like that.  I just wish I had more out of the drums, they feel like they're in a different room.

slash5960 -

Interesting vocal treatment, but I feel like something with crazy delay only works if more of the mix is going that way.  Cool idea with the harmony, but I wish there was more room in the drums. Everything feels a little strange in the upper upper mids.  

Greg Dixon -

Another one with the drums way back in the mix.  For me the song didn't move enough harmonically/emotionally for the rhythm section to be so underplayed.  I like the snare sound a lot, I just wish I had more of it.  Nice sax treatment, you really did a great job of making it matter in the context of the song.

Mac -

The vocal feels a little in the back with the arpegiatted guitars standing front and center. The snare break between the first and second verse doesn't hit the way I'd like, but the cymbals stay really controlled, which is something I had some issues with.  The kick is nice and punchy. Very close mic'd sound to the drums, which is an interesting interpretation.

Teleric -

I instantly like this one better than the rest.  Everythings in the same space... except for the kick drum.  It's just a little to in your face, and it's almost like you didn't want to decide between the drums and the bass who was gonna drive the boat.  A little more compression on the vocal, and turn it up a bit and I didn't think the kick would bother me at all.

JasonThompson -

Dig it.  Once again, great snare sound on this. The kick is a little honky feeling though.  The vocals are at a great level, but the 10K(?) shelf is killing me.  Still though, the snare is rockin, it always feels good when it comes in.  

ATOR -

It feels a little bit disjointed in the intro, what did you do on the guitars (I'm just curious, they sound really chorused).  Did you only use the acoustic on one side and the nashville on the other? I like that you tried to make the instrumental breaks more interesting with effects.  Nice transition into the chorus, but the bass needs some work.

CJWall -

Wow.  midrange.  I kneejerked for the volume on this one.  The vocals sound really great, but the rest of the mix doesn't fit it.  A little distortion on the guitars?  Lots of clicky kick drums going on in particular IMP.

darkhorseporter -

The drums feel a little like they have a pillow over the entire kit.   They seem to be the big problem point on this IMP.  I like that ballsed out the organ, I just wish the drums and vocals could stand up to it.

JHall -

The kick is too pronounced for me.  I heard this song as a big roomy drumset, not a chad smith type sound, although if thats what you were going for, you got it.  The vocal level jumps around a bit and eats up the acoustics on the "one has died, one is going green line" and in a couple other places... bus compression?  I like where it's headed but it feels little unfinished in spots, some places the the sax takes up space where the vocal should, some times the vocal eats the guitar, etc.

SingSing -

I like the way you fit the vocal in there.  The intro felt a little long without the rhythm section, but the vocal really does fit in there great.  I'm waiting for the drums to kick in in the second verse but.... wtf?  Nice use of the sax/tremolo though.  Part of me likes it without the drums, but the song just isn't strong enough for the drums to come in when they do.  With some editing this could really work.  EASILY the most creative mix so far.

osumosan -

The balance between the band and vocal is a little off to me.  The kick is the loudest drum in the set, and the interplay between it and the bass feels a little like a drum machine to me.  I usually like your mixes, or at least the attitude behind them, but this one is a little confusing to me.

typeK -

Dryin that sax UP eh?  The sax/bass duet at the beginning feels a little pointless in context with the rest of the mix.  This one sounds more like a faders up rough with a lot of compression.  It occasionally comes together for a second, and then when the vocal comes back I can hardly hear it against the bass.  I would've liked this more if you had just went for the dry thing balls out.

Audio~Geek -

Another one of my favorites so far.  Nice balances between everything, but I could use the vocal up a little bit more, the sax kind of eats it up.  if it was back with the drums more the whole thing would tie together better.

cymatiks -

Too much compression for me.  The guitar delay is a neat idea... waiting for the vocal.... i like the filter in the beginning... waiting to see if it changes.... and... man, I really wanted the mix to get BIG at the second verse but it feels really reigned in.  

iCombs -

the drumset is a little thin and the vocal jumps around level wise a little bit, otherwise this one would be really great.   Whenever the drums come in it takes me out of the moment though. They just don't sound organic enough for the mix.

CarefulCollapse -

The sax delay doesn't really fit with any other ambience in the song, which would work if the sax was only in the intro... but the guy wanks it all over the song every chance he gets, so it sounds a little weird.  The vocal delay is neat though.  I like it. Generally I like the drums on this one too.  Cool background treatment too... I just wish the whole mix went in that direction.  

M_Carter - I'm not really feeling the bass tone I got.  In retrospect I wish I would just left it alone.  My guitars are way to quiet,especially when the drums are in.  I like the ambience, which is always a problem for me.  I probably could've done some cooler things with the sax too... but I like the space the organ takes up in the song.  I feel like the organ, drums, vocals all work together, but everything else is kind of wimped out.

Doug H -

I like this one for the most part.  It's a little mid rangey but it all works together pretty nicely.  Nice ambience on the vocal.  The kind of tight 'roomy, but not snare' really works in the mix.

Maxim -

Crazy awesome delay on the intro. It never really opens up the way I want it to though. You got some really interesting and beautiful tones out of some really pedestrian parts, but kind of halfway treated the drums.. If they'd have been big and messy I'd have loved this mix and it would've been the only one to really nail the song.  Or at least make it interesting.

mcsnare-

I like everything except the kick drum. It just doesn't 'belong'with the bass.  The guitars and snare sound nice though.  Vocals are treated nicely, but occasionally a bit too loud.  Backgrounds are nice with the chorus.  It's nice to hear them stereo.

And that's all...

Hope anyone gets something out of those comments.



Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: garret on October 24, 2007, 12:25:21 am
M Carter wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 00:12

garret -

I like the rearrangement of the intro, it's way more subtle this way.  However - where's the kick drum?  The edits in the guitars are nice.  Ballsy to just throw one guitar naked in the left channel like that.  I just wish I had more out of the drums, they feel like they're in a different room.




Thanks for listening, Matt...

By "where's the kick?" do you mean in the intro, or in the rest of the track?

in the intro, I have just the overheads through a room verb... listening now, yah I probably should have added a little of the kick to fill in the low end, but I kind of like the "practice room" vibe... it makes the studio sound more enjoyable it shows up.

as for the kick level in the main verses and chorus.. it's where I want it to be.  Okay I might be convinced to bring it up a little bit...  but I'm unlikely to ever go for that boomy pumped up kick that I'm hearing on indie records of late.   I listen mostly to older stuff anyway, and the kick was just a suggestion until 1995 or so...  more of a heartbeat than a major part of the mix.

Anyway... just a rambling rant about kick drums.

Thanks again for posting feedback...

-Garret

Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 24, 2007, 03:23:14 am
Thanks for the reviews guys. I hope to do mine tomorrow.

With this mix, I gave myself the challenge of not using any of the plug-ins I'd normally use. I just upgraded to the URS Everything bundle, so used the opportunity to get to know their graphic EQs and the new M bundle.

osumosan wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 14:17



Greg Dixon
Great overall balance. Snare a bit muffly. Sax here is a bit disembodied. I don't hear it as a solo instrument, so that colors my comment.




I added a sample of my newly acquired '66 Ludwig Supra-phonic snare, tuned fairly low and with a very loose snare, just to try it out and decided to keep it. The original snare was very defined, so I enjoyed adding a sample that was quite the opposite. I wasn't totally happy with the way I had the sax either. Once again trying to make it different to my original mix.

slash5969 wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 13:18



Greg: You had an unfair advantage - you're obviously much more familiar with the song than the rest of us are. Sax much more up front than I heard it, but man does it work! Nice balance - this mix captures the vibe of the tune perfectly, although I still wanted those "ethereal" vocals. Excellent job - probably my favorite mix of this tune.




Thanks, I was fairly happy with the mix. I agree about the vocals. Once again trying to make it work without long delay or reverb. I used a Sun Records style slap echo and a touch of small plate on the vocal.

garret wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 14:05



Greg Dixon/   nicely balanced… dynamics are under control but not lifeless… vox is natural and sitting nicely on top of the bed….  Achieves that epic quality that the best mixes get in the last chorus…




Thanks, I'm not sure I often reach epic, so that's great to hear.

M Carter wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 14:12



Greg Dixon -

Another one with the drums way back in the mix.  For me the song didn't move enough harmonically/emotionally for the rhythm section to be so underplayed.  I like the snare sound a lot, I just wish I had more of it.  Nice sax treatment, you really did a great job of making it matter in the context of the song.




Thanks Matt. Coming from you, that sax comment is the highest praise. Very Happy
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: ATOR on October 24, 2007, 06:55:00 am
Here are my reviews. A lot of good mixes this time.

Big thanks to Greg for providing great sounding tracks.


Audio Geek
Drums are distant it's not wrong but if you go for an ambient sound then I'd like the other instruments to be more distant too. Balance is good, drums could use more volume at the end. You didn't get the sax to fit the track, it's also too loud.

Carefulcollapse
Floortom in intro is cutoff. I like the spacious rev+dly fx on the vox, it's a little too loud in the chorus. Good sax solution of putting it way out on the left in the back, it's too loud. Good drumsound.

CJWall
Drums sound raw and hard and have too much compression, did you crush the room? I missed the song because I kept on listening to the drums. The ac guitars have the same kind of distortion that the drums have. There's an aggression in the sound that doesn't fit the song at all.

Cymatics
Kickdrum is dusty. I like the vox treatment in the beginning, I wish it didn't stay like this the whole track through. Vox are a little low. I'd like more presence and highs in the instruments so there's more separation. Balance is good.

Darkhorsereporter
Hammond drone is too loud, is masks the guitars and swamps the track. I like the mellow mood.

Doug H
The drumsound doesn't fit the track, the room is too obvious. Good balance and soundspace.

Garret
You approach is about 180degrees different from mine but since I've been listening to your albums tracks I get it and have come to like it. So instead of making a list of what you should do to make it sound like I would do it I just kick back and enjoy the mellow and peaceful sound. You could have cut the countdown.

Greg Dixon
The kick/bass combination could use some work, it's tubby. Balance is good.  Some more presence and high wouldn't hurt but this could be fixed in mastering.

iCombs
Cut the intro. Drums could use more low end and bigness (not loudness). Another melow version that perfectly fits the song.

Jason Thompson
Vox have way too much compression, sibilance and distortion. it hurts my ears. Drums and bass could also do with less compression. Nice fx on ad libs.

JHall
Nice textures added to bass, organ and sax. Intimate vocal. Good drums. Still not too crazy about the sax timing and intonation. Balance is good.

Kellen Tyburskski
The sound reminds me of old jazz records. Vocal level is way too low. Bass it too tubby, too loud and out of balance with the kick.

M Carter
Drum roomsound is too obvious. Nice intimate sound. Hammond comes from out of space (no roomsound + too much reverb). Drums are a little dull. Balance could use some more work.

Mac
Drums lack presence. Nice guitars. Kick + bass is too tubby. Balance is good, bass a little too loud. I’d like to hear more of the space where the instruments are in.

Maxim
That is some freaky Hammond. I like it but it’s distracting, turn it down and place it more in the background and I’m a fan. Great sax, or what’s left of it Smile  I’d like to hear more drums. The end theme is lost.

McSnare
Wow! Great sounds, great balance, everything placed in a coherent space. I even like the sax here. Amazing, I had no idea this track could sound like this.

Osumosan
Vocal is a little low. Kick and rest of the kit don’t seem to come from one room. Snare could use more presence. Bass is a little tubby.

SingSing
Full and round sounds. Vocal has some sibilance. Great haunting synthsound.  Ouch, then the drums kick in, why the harsh distorted tone? Phew, it was just a temporary effect, better get rid of it. Love this mix.

Slash
Sounds could use more work.  Vocal fx draw too much attention to them. There’s nothing going on in this mix that captures my interest.

Teleric
Sounds good. Yeah I like it. Bass is a little loud.

Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: ATOR on October 24, 2007, 07:18:52 am
Quote:

Osumosan
Hey Kettle! Pot here sayin' too much compression on the drums. And they overpower the other instruments. The long reverb tail effect is cool and I'd love to hear more of it and more consistency of where it is applied, sticking with one or two sonic spaces. I would notch down the vox, too.

Garret
Muscular but still vibey… good work. Guitars sound good and the mix is nicely balanced…. Okay except the kick which I think is overpumped, and the hi hat, which I think gets distracting. Watch the lead vocal… it’s getting dominated at times.



I'm gonna do a remix and definitely revisit the drumcompression. I had trouble with the hihat spill in the snaredrum, I had another version with a normal hihat but a dull snare but I like this one better. I like my vocals loud.

Quote:

M Carter
It feels a little bit disjointed in the intro, what did you do on the guitars (I'm just curious, they sound really chorused). Did you only use the acoustic on one side and the nashville on the other? I like that you tried to make the instrumental breaks more interesting with effects. Nice transition into the chorus, but the bass needs some work.

I panned the guitars to either side. The chorusing you hear is (out of my head) a filtered 1/8th delay with modulated delaytime. Kick and bass in my mix are a weak point, I agree.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on October 24, 2007, 07:49:39 am
ATOR wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 05:55

Jason Thompson
Vox have way too much compression, sibilance and distortion. it hurts my ears. Drums and bass could also do with less compression. Nice fx on ad libs.



Again. That was the point of my mix. To have a contrast of "dirty" and "clean". I never thought it to be unpleasant though... just "fried". Thanks for the comments man.

garret wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 23:05

Jason thompson/    Ooo, this one’s bright.   Lots of 8khz+.      Good that you tried for a bright mix, which is hard to pull off (don’t look at me for an example – my stuff is always dark)…  to me it depends on the singer.. this guy has a voice that is loaded with nasal buzz, so you have to be careful…


Once I compressed the vox I felt: "Wow, that's different". He is unique. So, I didn't want to try and cover up any of that nasal sound. When I heard the sizzle on the vox at times in the dry run, that's when I decided I would go over the top on the vox. Originally I wanted the vocal to be the "clean" thing.


I will get to mine later today guys. Been buried.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 24, 2007, 07:52:10 am
ATOR wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 20:55



Big thanks to Greg for providing great sounding tracks.


Thanks need to go to Chris and the rest of Guava for letting us use the tracks and playing well in the first place. It wasn't hard after that.

Incidentally, this was the first time I tried recording the tracks at lower levels as per. http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/15038/2333/
I definitely think it sounds better. There was no eq used during tracking and everything was recorded through the same type of preamp.


ATOR wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 20:55


Greg Dixon
The kick/bass combination could use some work, it's tubby. Balance is good.  Some more presence and high wouldn't hurt but this could be fixed in mastering.




Fair enough, I went for more of a thuddy almost old school reggae sound this time. I rolled quite a bit of high end off the kick mics and added some lows around 60hz. Definitely not the modern rock kick sound.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on October 24, 2007, 08:13:23 am
M Carter wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 23:12

JasonThompson -

Dig it.  Once again, great snare sound on this. The kick is a little honky feeling though.  The vocals are at a great level, but the 10K(?) shelf is killing me.  Still though, the snare is rockin, it always feels good when it comes in.  


Well that's the consensus. Too much on the top. Maybe I need to clean my ears with some rubbing alcohol. Seriously though. I added a little air to the OH and I didn't want the vox behind that. I really didn't find it to be "too much" in that freq. Maybe I'm losing my hearing and my hair. I will definitely go back a tone it down. I think I could actually just go in and low pass the whole mix a little. Everything is consistently bright to me. That might fix it.?.?

slash5969 wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 22:18


J Texas: Crisp drums - I'm diggin' your snare! Clean mix. I like the way you heard the song. Nice balance to everything - I like the presence in the vocals. You used the sax line well. I would have faded that guitar at the end, but I'm sorta pickin' fly shit outta pepper. Another of my favorite takes on this tune.


"I like the presence in the vocals."

Man, do you have tinnitus too? We seem to be the only ones that don't mind that upper frequency. You must hunt too. I knew I should have started wearing earplugs!  Very Happy  

"I'm sorta pickin' fly shit outta pepper."

Now (being from Texas) I thought I'd heard every hillbilly saying ever made. Leave it to one of you Oklahoma boys to come up with a good one!  Laughing
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: ATOR on October 24, 2007, 09:27:23 am
Greg Dixon wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 13:52


ATOR wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 20:55


Greg Dixon
The kick/bass combination could use some work, it's tubby. Balance is good.  Some more presence and high wouldn't hurt but this could be fixed in mastering.




Fair enough, I went for more of a thuddy almost old school reggae sound this time. I rolled quite a bit of high end off the kick mics and added some lows around 60hz. Definitely not the modern rock kick sound.


I'll be the first to dig a big kick but the bassguitar and kickdrum are both big in the same freqs. When the bass plays the D note unison with the kick it gets too much. I heard this with more mixes including my own.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: slash5969 on October 24, 2007, 10:00:53 am
osumosan wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 23:17



slash5969
Yay echo. Sometimes builds up too much and the vox are too overpowering.
Hihat's (over)ruling
sax is buried and in a different song almost. Ditto on the drums.
Nice treatment on the ad lib.
Vox blown out in places.





garret wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 23:05



Slash5969/   the delay on the vox is too canned and proggy for my tastes.  I think you’d get away with it if you just did it once or twice… but so often, yah, not so much.    the drums are overpowering the vocals.  I like a lot of this mix, but I can't get past the heavy kick drum and the proggy delay.





M Carter wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 23:12


slash5960 -

Interesting vocal treatment, but I feel like something with crazy delay only works if more of the mix is going that way.  Cool idea with the harmony, but I wish there was more room in the drums. Everything feels a little strange in the upper upper mids.  





ATOR wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 05:55



Slash
Sounds could use more work.  Vocal fx draw too much attention to them. There’s nothing going on in this mix that captures my interest.





The normal instinct is to defend one's work, (and I will to a certain extent) - but the idea here is to learn something, right? I hear you guys loud and clear - the delay is a bit over the top. But you know what else?  I just listened to it again, and I still like it. I'll certainly be more subtle in the future, but I believe that the tune needed depth and space in the vocals. To me, they were the focal point of the song - I wanted to draw attention to them.

Osumosan heard my drums as buried. Garret heard them as overpowering the vocal. M Carter wanted "more room" in them. In all honesty, I wasn't terribly pleased with my overall drum mix - I struggled with the snare (it was trebley and a bit anemic). But the point is that music is subjective, and one man's pleasure is another man's poison. It explains why bands like Fallout Boy sell a shitload of records, I suppose.

I do appreciate the feedback. I learned from every opinion offered. I got to mix a song that I would have never been exposed to in a million years if not for this forum.
I got an opportunity to work with my tools and to get to know them a little better. I got one step closer to being able to translate what I hear in my head into something you can hear in my mixes.

It's way cool.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: slash5969 on October 24, 2007, 10:09:34 am
J-Texas wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 07:13



Man, do you have tinnitus too? We seem to be the only ones that don't mind that upper frequency. You must hunt too. I knew I should have started wearing earplugs!  Very Happy  

"I'm sorta pickin' fly shit outta pepper."

Now (being from Texas) I thought I'd heard every hillbilly saying ever made. Leave it to one of you Oklahoma boys to come up with a good one!  Laughing


I don't hunt much, but I've spent 30 years in front of assorted Marshalls and Fenders. In the last few years I've actually learned how to turn them down.

And you know us hilljacks hafta stick together. Lotsa Yankees around these parts. Cool
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 24, 2007, 10:26:09 am
I think all of us will defend our mixes to some extent.  

I think it would be interesting to cut out the variable of 'how we interpret the song' on one of these, or go back and remix the song after we know the intent of it to see how everyone reaches the same goal.  I'm sure everyones mix would still be different,but it would definitely make for more level comparisons.  

I know J.'s world is different, but I'm personally unaware of a situation in mine where the engineer is 100% unfamiliar with the client.  Maybe the New York scene is just different in that way.

Then again, there's always the idea of 'go for an idea, and see if you can make it a reality', which I guess is the tenet IMP lives by.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 24, 2007, 10:40:06 am
slash5969 wrote on Thu, 25 October 2007 00:00



Osumosan heard my drums as buried. Garret heard them as overpowering the vocal. M Carter wanted "more room" in them. In all honesty, I wasn't terribly pleased with my overall drum mix - I struggled with the snare (it was trebley and a bit anemic). But the point is that music is subjective, and one man's pleasure is another man's poison.




Your experience is quite normal. I think you'll find that everyone experiences those extremes of opinion in the reviews they get.

One day we'll get someone to analise the imp mixes and reviews and see if there's a pattern to what people like, the way they mix and their monitor situation. Should be an interesting and complex study. Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: garret on October 24, 2007, 10:50:37 am
J-Texas wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 07:49


garret wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 23:05

Jason thompson/    Ooo, this one’s bright.   Lots of 8khz+.      Good that you tried for a bright mix, which is hard to pull off (don’t look at me for an example – my stuff is always dark)…  to me it depends on the singer.. this guy has a voice that is loaded with nasal buzz, so you have to be careful…


Once I compressed the vox I felt: "Wow, that's different". He is unique. So, I didn't want to try and cover up any of that nasal sound. When I heard the sizzle on the vox at times in the dry run, that's when I decided I would go over the top on the vox. Originally I wanted the vocal to be the "clean" thing.



Ya know, I list listened to your mix again, and dug into it with a spectrum analyzer...

I was overly harsh about it... it's a damn fine mix if you roll off the 10k shelf, and drop some 4khz (harsh vocal presence.).

Not that we should mix with our eyes, but a few months ago, I went through about 50 reference tracks that I like, from a variety of albums from the late 1960s to present, and ran 'em through a spectrum analyzer (voxengo span).

The slope control in Span works quite well to reveal the mastering preferences ... i.e., many tracks in the 80s are almost flat at a 3db/octave slope.  Even something you think rawks beyond belief like the Pixies, is dead flat at 3db/octave.   Incredibly bright by today's standards. That's the same spectral balance as pink noise, which textbooks say is supposed to similar to well-balanced music.  Reference tracks have shifted in the last couple decades to a much darker 5db/octave, or 6db/octave slope (radiohead!), and they sound great... that gets us more low end, which we've all come to love over the years.

Independent of the slope, almost all the reference tracks I looked at show a steep roll-off starting at 10khz.  None were flat, or anything close to flat, up to 20khz.   So for all you read in the trade mags about "boosting the air" in a vocal, or acoustic guitars, or mastering engineers doing the same, it doesn't mean the final product is loaded up with 20khz material...

With the 4.5db slope, your track looks like this:
index.php/fa/6517/0/

I'm using the averaging feature to smooth out the curve a bit... you can see that your 10k-20khz band is relatively flat.   You have almost as much 20khz energy as you do 1khz...   You can also see the peak at 4khz, which is vocal presence.  I'm not sure if you boosted that, or if it was in the original track... but to my ears, a little dip there makes your vocal sit much better.

-Garret
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: typek on October 24, 2007, 12:06:58 pm
Audio~Geek wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 21:04



Hey Typek for editing out quiet parts you can use strip silence or just use a gate, shouldn't take you an hour.




yeah... well, at the time it seemed like the only way to fix it. I dont think it actually took an hour, maybe it just felt like it Smile Now that I think about it, a gate would have been the easiest solution. I am still in school and new to all of this. But I guess thats why we do this, right? practice..

my thoughts on your mix.. very clean sounding, and very clear. I like the way the vox sit, and i think you used the verb very tastefully. It sort of seems like a transparent mix- were you just sort of let things be, didn't get too crazy with changing the "feel". I like it.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: typek on October 24, 2007, 12:23:04 pm
osumosan wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 23:17


Jhall
This has got the bottom. And the mix is close and intimate. Floor tom is clipping? Vox? Organ? Bass? Maybe the mix is clipping. The floor is the one track that seems to be disconnected. Are there gates on the toms. Is the release to quick?




hey..
so.. whats wrong with me- i cant hear where the floor tom is clipping.. can you point me in the right spot ? I am still trying to tune my ears to these small things you guys are all mentioning. Also, I am having trouble hearing the sound of "over compressed" things, and i think it is definitely showing in my mix. I have been comparing the supposed over compressed mixes/drums to other mixes, but cant hear too much of a difference. Is there some sort of approach or something specific I can be listening for? I know that's sort of a weird question- but I am trying to identify these things.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on October 24, 2007, 05:54:46 pm
garret wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 09:50

I was overly harsh about it... it's a damn fine mix if you roll off the 10k shelf, and drop some 4khz (harsh vocal presence.).



Wow!  Very Happy

Whenever I get ripped by any other crits... I'll just read this one again! LOL


You know... without making excuses.  Embarassed I was so stoked about getting our control room finished. I took this thing down on Sunday night. The RADAR was giving me problems (needed to back some stuff up = no time). So I did this one in the home studio again on the NS10M's. We just got some new ProAc's and I was REALLY looking forward to doing this one in the new room. IMP 16. I can't wait to hear some feedback on the next one. It's been a long, difficult road to finishing, but I've gotten a descent freq response at the mix position. There is a lot of bass buildup around the perimeter of the room and at my position there is a little dip around 300 to 325. I'm happy and can't wait.

I did put on the Fostex headphones and the mix is bright.

Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: garret on October 24, 2007, 06:03:48 pm
J-Texas wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 17:54

garret wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 09:50

I was overly harsh about it... it's a damn fine mix if you roll off the 10k shelf, and drop some 4khz (harsh vocal presence.).



Wow!  Very Happy

Whenever I get ripped by any other crits... I'll just read this one again! LOL


Indeed.... it's funny how much I react to high end... especially if I'm working quickly through a bunch of mixes... if you have hearing loss up there, I must have super hearing.

I just can't listen to it... pain pain pain. Smile

The general point is a good one... everyone who thinks I blasted ya in my "reviews", just remember that 10 minutes later I might have a different opinion.   I like the lyric from whatever Streets song it is... "It's hard enough to remember my opinions without remembering my reasons for them."

A lot of the reviews here are first impressions.  And that's great feedback, because most people do judge stuff by the first few seconds...  but it can be inconsistent... one user will hear a vocal as too loud, and another as too quiet, and maybe it is each, at various points in the song.  The real problem might be that the vocal level is inconsistent...

Gotta run, so I'm done rambling...

Cheers,
-Garret
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Doug_H on October 24, 2007, 08:49:33 pm
My notes

Audio Geek
Liked it except the drums.  No kick up with the bass (which was about as loud as one could risk) and the snare sounded hard and chattery.  I kind'a dug the whole sax in your face concept.


iCombs
Kick and snare sound poppy.  Great sound on the vocal, clean mid range. I thought the kick and vocal were too dominant.


carefulcollapse
I like this right off the top.  Accoutic sounds a bit boomy.  Ya, the production gets a bit distracting but the mix is good.  Nice snare.


M_Carter
Bottom end sounds stuffy.  I was going to say it sounded like someone forgot to switch a couple of drum mics, buit then it started reminding me of old zep albums and I started digging it.  Something not quite there thought.  "Big" sounding mix, viocaks stuck out as too dry or forward or something.  Neat idea to dump the guitars near the end.

CJWall
yikes, it's open. COuld have left some low end on the kick IMO.  I liked listening to this but I have to say it's too bright and shrill.


osumosan
Big punchy bass eats the intro, and some other sections in the song.  Clear natural sounding mix, nothing but the bass sounds wrong to me.  Accoustic guitars sound nice.


darkhorseporter
Another big bass mix, maybe I'm wrong about this, I know this tune was begging to let the bass free, but...
Add that drone from the keys and I think this mix needs more air (and snare).


kellen_tyburski
intro sounds great.  I'd like louder vocals and more top end.  Big panning on toms always throws me.  


SingSing
Intro sax is kid of brittle.  Arrangment works for me.  Production maybe too bright.  This mix highlites the vocal performance which I think was great.  If this was a little less edgy it might be my favourite mix.
Drums at the end are pushing it a bit, but it all works.


JHall
Great drums and bottom end. Very clean uncluttered mix. Vocal tracks are mixed too loud for my taste.  Maybe could have used a touch more tinsle from the room mic or something.


ATOR
Probably the only mix I've heard so far with not enough bass.  I like this mix the more I listen to it.  Iv'e got some complaints here and there, like the tinselly accoustic guitars, but the production works.


Teleric
This has a good balanced sound right out of the gate.  Mix does a good job of presenting everything and capturing all the hooks, nice.  


Greg_Dixon
Not too clear on the bottom end.  Snare is kind of thuddy at times and that keyboard drone is killing me.  Rest of the mix sounds great, nice Sax.


JasonThompson
I like the drum sound drums.  Vocals are too edgy, especially as loud as they are mixed.  Soft sax in the background is working for me.


Mac_Liam
unobtrusive easy to take sound.  Maybe could use more edge or a punched up bottom.  Simple and uncluttered, grows on you.  Drums need more air, I think that may be my only complaint.  The sax break around 3:00 jumped out at me as sounding particularly good for some reason.


slash5969
Cool vocal effects that suited the mix.  It's kind of all drums and vocal.


garret
I like that the guitars are played up.  Had a hard time making out the kick, I think that's what's missing cause I couldn't put my finger on it for a while.  needs Mix is knd of flat, needs more push and pull. The all important sax blended in good.


mcsnare
I like the sound of this even if it sounds a bit bassy off the top.  Nice balance and presentation of the different elements.  Snare sounds a touch deep and poppy, maybe from a compressor.


maxim
Those are the keys?  Sort of cool, can't decide.  Guitars seem too dominant to me even though I liked the mixes that played them up.  Maybe it's just the one on the right.  Open and clean sounding mix for the most part, could use more top end.


cymatics
Almost missed this one cause I didn't check who it was from.
Dreamy vibe.  I think the snare should be toned down cause I really like the rest of the mix. Drums in general are too in my face.  Probably the only mix where I like the drone from the keys.


Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on October 24, 2007, 11:00:08 pm
Garret - Nice acoustics. I like the low end in them. Nice verb on the vocals. Not overdone... I like the space. Good mix of the sax. The one thing that I'm missing is the bass drum in the mix. I could say that the bass guitar could come up, but then that would ruin it. If the kick comes up it ruins the bass guitar. I see where you were going man. Nice ending.

slash5969 - I like the establishment. I think the delay would be awesome if you used it more sparingly. Cool idea. If it just crept in at the end of the phrases or something? That's a lot of compression on the drums man. Especially the kick and the hats. Maybe if the snare was up more you wouldn't have used that much?? I love the ending man. Cool FX on the adlib vocal. Sax seems to me a few dB too low. I like that track in the background but not to strain.

Greg Dixon - Super duper sax out the box man. I would have like a lot more air on the snare. To me, a sax and the tom hits shouldn't beat the snare on high end. I love the mix everything else. It just really sounds odd. The kick is nice. The bass is nice with the kick. Personal preference I guess. I need a little more sheen on the OH and the snare. Not a lot of separation in the instrument. Panning yes. But not wide. Intentional?

mac - a little more automation on the vox? This mix... they doen't need compression. Just more consistency. (and a couple of db IMHO) Stronger snare to hold up to that kick and bass? I like the EQ on the mids though. A few tweaks. I like the dry sound. It's not dead, but not washed out. Cool. Adlib kind of pokes out. Part of the vocal automation thing. Straight approach, but cool man.

teleric - Bright. I like it already. Fat kick. Vox a little low for me. Oops. Actually... all over the place. This mix could use a little compression on the vox. I love the drums man. Bass is a little strong. A lot strong I guess. Distracting. Sax doesn't sit for me stuck way out there to the right. It's odd enough without accentuating it by drawing that much attention to it. So dissonant that lead organ, huh? I guess you liked it. Did you mean to leave the ending not cleaned up?

Jason Thompson - Cool drums. Too much on the high end overall. I hear it. I like the 70s quick delay on the vocal. Where's the sax when the vocal isn't in? Muddy bass. Needed automation on the vocal. Relied only on compression. I like the drone of the second Hammond as a dreamy pad. Good backup vocal balance. I like the buildup at the end. Ending sounds cool. Dude... you are SO biased.

ATOR - Man that's a lot of kick. I love that decay on the floor tom. BOOM. Cool acoustics. Kind of sound like a Dobro. I like the take off of the mothership too. Is it possible for the snare to have more bass than the kick? Sounds like it. Spacey man. Cool. Wait don't leave me. Take me with you mothership. I like.

cjwallgor - Holy hell. Tell that little dude in my head to stop knocking on my eardrum. These sounds are way over the top dude. It works great on the sax for me though. I like the vocal. I like the lead/backup vocal balance. I'm fighting all of these other things to hear that though. Trippy ending. Another one. It's cool if you want to hear the sticks, but where's the fade man? I know... the mastering guy will do that.  Rolling Eyes

darkhorseporter - What? Now a dirty intro? LOL. Meet my pet his name is Peeve. Vocal is not consistent. I like vox hotter than usual. Unless it's instrumental, that's where the message is. Snare doesn't hold up to the vocal eq. I like where the bass sits. First organ is cool, but just a BIT hot for me. I think the second organ could be that hot in most places, in some, it's too much. No adlib vocal? And dirty ending. Man you're killing me!  Twisted Evil

J. Hall - What the hell is that on the bass? Cool drums... as usual. That's your strongest suit IMO and the hardest thing to get right. Your kicks are always cool to me. Just a little brighter on the vox man!!! That lead organ is really twisted too. Distorted. I do like how you can hear everything on the bass. I gated mine. It is cool to hear it that way. Another off to the right sax thing. weird to me. I think the adlib vocal effect is cool, but too far out in front. The eq is different on that. I wish the rest of them had that treatment. The bass took a left at the outro!

SingSing - Sax. Exit. Stage right. I like the ethereal space. Although a good choice of verb for me, it's a bit too much. I miss the drums, please tell them to come back. Whoa!!! Not like that man! OK. I can go for that. When the bass came back in it sounded cool. Cool way to end it man. The only problem I have with it... if you're going to copy a drum part... make sure it's in the pocket. Obviously the tempo sped up at the end. The lazy sounding beat makes the sax WAY too far out front of the groove. All in all... I like it.

osumosan - Kick is weird. Replaced or really compressed and eq'd? I like the delay on the vocals. Very tasty. That could have been terrible. It's not. I love the eq on the acoustics. The vocal seems to be too low. Like I said before, I hate to strain to hear a vocal. If it wasn't important... it would be an instrumental. I like the drums overall. I think it would have worked very well in the sparse verse to use that delay on the middle line only. I like the evenness of the bass, but loosen that attack. It has no dynamics. Quick fade dude?

typek - Interesting intro. It highlights the sax part since it recurs throughout. Dude, you moved that lead organ didn't you? Way off my man. Vocal is WAY too low. Not just for me. It shouldn't be shadowed by an acoustic guitar bro'. Your bass works. Kind of dull for the kick. it would have been nice to hear that gap closed up a bit. You move some stuff huh? Where did you move the adlib vocal?

Audio-Geek - At least your dirty front was a count-off! LOL. Vocal is low man. Every time I say that it comes up. It needs automaiton. I like where the sax sits (edited remark = in most places). I can't figure out the drums. I don't like it though. Flabby and distorted. Backup vox overpower the lead. If they would have been ducked underneath... the stereo effect would have jived. In the outro I really could appreciate the early reflections on the OH. They sounded cool there.

cymatics - Your avatar scares me. Won't you take me down to Compression-town. I LOVE the vocal!!!!! A little less of the flanger/phaser would have left a great taste in my mouth. Delay on the acoustic? It's almost like a pad. Cool. If only a few things were tricked-out man! I like the growl on the 2nd Hammond. I would like nothing on the backup vocal too. The FX sound really weird stacked up. Whoa! ACID PARTY ENDING.

iCombs - They say soft panning is for wimps... I guess you are not one.  Smile Thank God for stereo. I would like to hear some stereo verb on that sax to match the separation though. nice vocal balance with the backups. What I notice most about this is that it sounds low in volume, but the dynamics are there. Something forgotten about a lot of times. That being said... I would like more low in the snare and less click in the kick. Just my opinion. I love the kick/bass guitar relationship too. My favorite overall mix so far.

Careful Collapse - Ok. The thing that I like about the last mix is the separation. What made it cool was that it was the same instrument on both sides. This is disturbing. Cool drums dude. I think is what I was going for. Nice vox. WHOA! green.green. Wait what was that? Sounded like you chopped up a verb trail on the vocal. I like the sound of the sax. Very cool and spacey. I really don't like all the hard panning of stuff. I usually would try it myself, but it kind of hurts because there is no freq balance. They are different ranges. I would have even put the backup vox on the left side to match the guitar, you know? I like the circus tent thing at the end. Very carnivalish. The adlib treatment made that very cool.

M Carter - Once again... a mix that sounds low in volume, but has cool dynamics. More vocal man!!  Sad Another far right sax! I love the punch in the snare. Good kick/bass balance. Sounds like a band in a tight room. Of course, the sax guy is in the corner... he's been bad or something.  Very Happy intimate. I like. The side sticks stand out and everything. Nice use of the room and the OH dude. Adlib thing is doing something funny. Gate closing up? I like the long fade. The panned right vox are killing me too. You know I'm just sensitive to it now.

Doug H - Yowzah! Need some separation with the two guitars man. Everything kind of sounds straight up the middle. A lot of midrange in this mix. The snare is fighting with the vox. Organs are a little hot for me. Everything just seems built up in the midrange. It's hard to get a handle on the parts. Sounds like you relied heavily on the room for the snare and then eq'd that. I would try working on keeping things closer in their freq range.

maxim - Hot acoustics in comparison to everything else. More vox. Nope. Automation. VERY cool organ thing man. Ringo snare. I could use more kick in this. It gets lost in all the mayhem. I really love that organ growl. Extra help on the left guitar eq in the midrange? Or less in the right? More snare punch along with the kick. i like this direction a lot!!!!

mcsnare - Kick... in the balls. Fat bottom. Nice acoustics. Man! Did you Autotune these vocals? Something strange in there. Beautiful balance. Drums sound incredible. I guess we saved the best for last. Being the last mix, I stayed interested in it the whole time. You have some growl on that low organ too? I love how this mix fills up the whole space left to right. There seems to be no frequency or spacial balance unused. Very cool. Brother. That's how it's done.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on October 24, 2007, 11:17:53 pm
M Carter wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 09:26

make for more level comparisons.  

I know J.'s world is different, but I'm personally unaware of a situation in mine where the engineer is 100% unfamiliar with the client.  Maybe the New York scene is just different in that way.



i would never say i'm "unfamiliar" with the artists that i mix for.  i would say that it's VERY common for my first listen of a song to be me beginning to actually mix it.

in "my world" (defined as that of a mixer) i think this is very common.  and i might go as far to say that my ability to react to a track, and make quick decisions is what pays my bills........perhaps that's arrogant, i don't really know.

i know the artist as much as i have communication with them prior to the tracks showing up, and i get a chance to get an overall feel for what is in their head.

even at that, i still get, 90% of the time, the client saying, "hey man, make it rock" and that's it.  i quite enjoy trying to deliver for them without any other direction.

perhaps brings a bit of clarity to what "my world" is and is not.

the mixes i do for IMP, are exactly what i would have done for a pay session.  i really don't know how to do it any other way any more.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 25, 2007, 12:28:47 am
J. -

I wasn't implying anything otherwise, and I hope you didn't feel the need to justify the way you do things based on what I said.  You're quite obviously successful the way you do things.

Generally speaking, I'm used to dealing with engineers and producers who have stayed with a project through its duration. Most mix sessions at Legacy are either producer or artist attended, or both.  I was just trying to illustrate that there are many different approaches in this business of making records.  You and I come from completely different places in it.  

you dig?




Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: mac on October 25, 2007, 01:10:07 am
ATOR - i like the 'howling wind' effect on the organ, although i think in a couple of places it distracts.  

M Carter - sax might as well not be there in the intro, i find myself straining to hear it.  i'm struggling with the room sound on the drums, doesn't seem to match the rest of the band, except maybe the organs.

J Hall - i like what you've done with the organs.  the distorted bass scares me a little.  i'd like the delay on the ad libbed vocal to last a little longer ( more repeats )

Garret - missing the kick a bit in the intro.  i like the sound and space of the guitars.  the vocals (especially when with harmonies) seem to bury everything else around them.  nice take on the ending with no drums

SingSing - everything seems to sit in the same space and belong together.  i almost forgot there was no drums, until they came in and gave me a shock.  i think the effect on the drums is  a bit much, although i see where you were going with it.  i think the ending is a bit sparse reverb wise compared to the rest of the track

cymatics - missing a lot of tops.  kick and bass work well together.  i kind of like the effect on the vocal in the chorus, although i could have used a bit less in the verses.  seems a little busy in the ending

audio geek - harmonies seem to overpower the lead vocal, kick doesn't work for me. i like the bass though.

CJ Wall - so far i'm liking what you did with the guitars.  i like the drums too.  i want to hear your drums come in on SingSing's track.  my favourite so far

iCombs - sax is hiding behind it's reverb.  i expected to hear the track come in louder after the coughing and whatnot.  

carefulcollapse - adventurous.  after the breakdown, and with the big verb still on the vocal, it's like the drums sound too close all of a sudden.

darkhorseporter - also missing tops.  

greg dixon - feels like a similar interpretation to my own, just better executed and with roomier drums.  and i really like your version of the ending, gives it more space

jason thompson - i'd have to agree about too much highs, especially in the vocal.  i like the snare, especially the reverb/space around it.  not sure i like the effect on the ad lib vocal.  i like the way the guitars stay up on the fade out at the end

kellen tyburski - vocal sounds dull.  actually everything does.  

mcsnare - nice interpretation of the intro.  not sure i like the effect on the harmonies, but it's pretty subtle.  overall a very good mix.  i'd be happy with that if i was the client

osumosan - i like the kick sound, i'm just not too sure it fits with this song.  bass stands out a bit much.  i'm not sure about the delay on the vocal either.  if i was gonna do a fadeout, i'd want to be out before they start the outro.

slash 5969 - i think the delay works in some places, not so well in others.  hi hat stands out a bit too much, especially compared to the snare.  i liked getting it down to sax and organ at the end.

teleric - well i guess i'm at the last one and i'm getting picky.  no big stand outs for me as far as things i didn't like, but didn't grab me either.  

my favourites - mcsnare, cjwall, greg dixon.

sorry to anybody i offended by what i did or didn't say.

but that's life eh?
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: osumosan on October 25, 2007, 11:40:01 am
slash5969 wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 23:18

 The early fade disappointed - I wanted to hear how you handled that end passage


I was just frustrated with the noise floor that popped up at the end and at one point thought a fade might work and didn't revisit it.

garret wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 00:05

The volume balance is erratic in this one... get that right.. it's the most important thing you can do.



Thanks. I wish I had had some time to do rides. Re: the voice: I used the new delay designer in Logic to get a quick slap along with a 2 beat echo with a touch of panning, the reverb is separate, but I tried to blend it.

M Carter wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 00:12

The balance between the band and vocal is a little off to me.  The kick is the loudest drum in the set, and the interplay between it and the bass feels a little like a drum machine to me.  I usually like your mixes, or at least the attitude behind them, but this one is a little confusing to me.



Unfortunately, I agree with the kick comment. I was interested to see what kind of treatment I ended up with given the time pressure and doing a quick mix is something I need to work on. Did everyone feel that the kick could actually use a little taming -- or in my case a little "leaving it alone"? I was trying to get the clarity of a beatles mix and maybe overshot it?

slash5969 wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 10:00

 I learned from every opinion offered. I got to mix a song that I would have never been exposed to in a million years if not for this forum.

Amen!

typek wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 12:23

- i cant hear where the floor tom is clipping.. can you point me in the right spot ?

The first time I heard it was at 0:30. What I might have heard is the compression bringing out some of the rough elements of the tom. Upon second listening, it sounds fine (J. did you remix?! Very Happy ) You can hear the disto on the bass obviously, no?

J-Texas wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 23:00

osumosan - Kick is weird. Replaced or really compressed and eq'd?


No replacement. I did a bit of a scoop on the eq with some SSL responses with Waves Q-clone, nothing too extreme and a 10ms attack on a 1.5:1 comp on the drum buss paralleled to an uncompressed bus at around -10dB, so not extreme there.

J-Texas wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 23:00

I like the evenness of the bass, but loosen that attack. It has no dynamics.


Agreed

mac wrote on Thu, 25 October 2007 01:10

if i was gonna do a fadeout, i'd want to be out before they start the outro.


I kinda like it. It's like the band is going somewhere else that you don't get to know about, like they'll play forever or something.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Doug_H on October 25, 2007, 08:14:31 pm
J-Texas wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 22:00


Sounds like you relied heavily on the room for the snare and then eq'd that.

yep, pretty much.  I had a hard time finding the snap I wanted any other way.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: slash5969 on October 25, 2007, 09:31:52 pm
mac wrote on Thu, 25 October 2007 00:10


slash 5969 - i think the delay works in some places, not so well in others.  hi hat stands out a bit too much, especially compared to the snare.  i liked getting it down to sax and organ at the end.



I agree. The delay would have been more effective had it been more subtle. I had trouble with the snare, and I wasn't terribly pleased with my result.

Doug_H wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 19:49


slash5969
Cool vocal effects that suited the mix.  It's kind of all drums and vocal.


Thanks...I thought so too. I liked what I got from the kick.

J-Texas wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 22:00


slash5969 - I like the establishment. I think the delay would be awesome if you used it more sparingly. Cool idea. If it just crept in at the end of the phrases or something? That's a lot of compression on the drums man. Especially the kick and the hats. Maybe if the snare was up more you wouldn't have used that much?? I love the ending man. Cool FX on the adlib vocal. Sax seems to me a few dB too low. I like that track in the background but not to strain.


Ooooo...someone noticed my intro! I thought it was a cool way to commence the tune. I concur with all of your observations. In retrospect, I should have uncovered the sax line...worked with the snare until I liked it, and used the delay as spice instead of meat.

I'm learning. I thank you all for the observations. Bring on IMP 16 - this is fun!
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 26, 2007, 04:25:33 am
OK here's my two cents. I loaded them into itunes in the studio and resized the window so I couldn't see the name attached.  
 

ATOR Very compressed and bright mix. Overall I quite like it.  The guitars almost sound like Dobros, which is interesting. I like the phasey stuff in the breakdown verse, but it gets annoying after that. I'd prefer the snare to be a bit lower, it's the most dominant part of the mix. My first thought was that the bass was too low, but I think I like it now. My biggest complaint is the vocal. It sounds like he has a speech impediment. No sax?

M.Carter. Interesting balances. Doesn't quite work for me. You would have been better leaving the sax out. It's too low to be anything but annoying. The vocal is a bit flat and one dimensional. Too much drums and bass compared to everything else. The sounds are ok, they just don't work together.

J.Hall Wow distorted organ, bass and sax.  Drums sound great. Tight but roomy. Nice use of the room track. Overall the drums are a bit too dominant and get a bit fatiguing. I would have liked a bit more of the main acoustic part. The dry vocal sounds good and contrasts well with everything else. I wouldn't have thought to leave the finger squeaks on the bass track, but they work.  I would have preferred a  touch more sax. The ad lib bit at the end is a bit loud and I don't really like the echo.

Doug H. Has a bit of that tape recorder in the middle of the rehearsal room sound to it. Roomy and a bit muddled. I like the ethereal organ and the vocal sound, but the rest sounds like a quick demo. Not terrible just needs some more refinement. Overall balance of highs to lows is good.

Mac. The bass is a bit loud. Quite a dry unaffected mix which is fine. I think if the level of the bass was reduced it would work pretty well.

Garret. Quite a sparse mix, which I think would have worked better with a more solid drum sound. Very light on the bass and kick, which kills the heartbeat of the song. I'd like to hear more sax, especially where there are no vocals. Interesting ending. I like it, but wish the drums had stayed around until the end of the chorus. The whole thing just needs more impact. At the moment it's all a bit limp.

Sing Sing. Ethereal treatment is cool, but seems to be leaning to the left when there's no vocal, in the first few sections, due to the sax and dominant acoustic parts being on the same side. I like the organ in that second verse. Interesting using the Nord in the breakdown verse. I like the drums when they first appear, but they don't seem to quite fit the rest of it, which I guess was sort of the idea. It might just be a volume thing. It's quite a relief when the the bass comes in and everything returns to normal in that last chorus. Cool use of the different drums for the outro. Fade works. Overall a good mix.

Cymatics. Interesting mix. I quite like it. Big drums, with dirty room sound and then the phased and distorted vocal. Massive bottom and yet in this case, it doesn't wipe out everything else. I feel like I want a change in the vocal sound somewhere. No sax? There's some sort of earth moving equipment in the room during the outro!

Audio Geek. Another loud bass that takes away some of the impact in everything else, except the snare. I'm not sure about the reverb. It sounds a bit cheap and trashy and gives the mix a slightly hollow sound. Apart from that, the balances are pretty good.

Maxim. Definitely the most original and out there mix so far. I like that you've made no attempt to make it into a traditional band mix. Interesting treatment of the sax and organ. The organ gets to be a bit much, but I mainly like the sax. I think it would work better with the vocal up, as I feel like there's no real focus otherwise. The mix feels like a massive storm out to sea and the vocal's a tiny rowboat.

CJWAll The industrial version. Interesting ideas. Very compressed drums. I think it needs a bit more vocal to focus on. The sax sounds a bit like a kazoo at times. You've made the bass sound like it was played with a pick, which it wasn't, but is interesting. Ending feels a bit messy, which sort of works. It's pretty good, but doesn't quite work as a whole. It sounds like you got a drum sound you liked and brought the other instruments in around them.

iCombs. I turned this down when I heard the level of the band noises before the music starts, as it felt like it was about to blast and then it came in quietly, which was an anticlimax. The guitars and snare sound very compressed and thin.  Another one that could use a bit less kick and bass for most of it. The first one that works with the sax so far back. The snare and vocal sound a bit too dry alongside everything else. Other than that it's good.

carefulcollapse. Wow the band recorded in a subway tunnel as you walk away, with the odd studio vocal fix. There are some interesting ideas, but they seem to be the focus more than the song. I like the distortion on the tooty organ at the end, but not as much for the rest of the song. Overall it's ok, but the reverb and delay effects just turn it into too much of a mess for my liking.

darkhorseporter.  Another one where the intro seems small in comparison to the band getting ready before hand. I like the vocal except it's a touch too bright, like there's too much exciter on it. I think it mainly needs the drums and guitars up to work well. At the moment it's mainly vocal, organ drone and bass.  

Greg Dixon. Voice and sax sound good. One of the few where you can really hear the acoustic guitars. Snare should possibly be a touch louder, although it's nice hearing a mix where it doesn't smack you in the face. After all, it's not really a rock track! Kick's a bit woolly. Needs more level or to be punchier (or both). Harmonies sit nicely. OK this is mine, as I don't think anyone else did the ending like that.

Jason Thompson. Bright and very compressed. Voice could work as is, if it was brought down a bit. Not much in there besides drums, bass and vocals. Could use more level on the kick to fit with the bass and snare. Another one where the sax either needs to be louder or not there at all. The whole track sounds a bit dirty, but otherwise is a pretty good mix, just not much going on harmonically.

kellen tyburski. Interesting intro. It works but sounds a bit like it's tacked on. Voice too buried for my liking. Too much bass again. The guitars sound a bit boxy. Snare panning is different, but ok. With the voice up and bass down this mix would be fine.

mcsnare. The tone of the voice is good, but it's obviously got some form of auto tune on it as it's changing the melody in a few spots!! Guitars sound good as does the sax. Nice to actually hear the sax. The snare sounds good, but is a bit too upfront for me. Plenty of bottom, but doesn't overwhelm the rest of the mix. Overall very good.

osumosan. Nice snare, although I think I'd prefer it in the centre. I like the slight delay on the cross stick. Is that just the room mic panned to the opposite side? Vocal delay is interesting, but is a bit distracting at times. The vocal could be a bit louder too. The bass might be a touch loud, but it's not anywhere near the problem of some of the others. The kick has gained a wooden beater. Don't love the fade. You miss some of the really cool bits. I would have either started it after the last chorus or finished the fade by the end of the repeat chorus. Overall, a pretty good mix.  

Teleric. Starts well. Voice could be louder. Guitars sound good and you can actually hear them. I like the drums. They're slightly trashy, yet still punchy. Another one where I'd like a bit less bass. Sax works where it is. With less bass and more vocal this would work well.

slash5969. I quite like the vocal before the band start. Distorting the sax and mixing it back is ok. The vocal delay in the verse gets a bit chaotic, which was probably the intention. I'm finding it a bit much. I don't like the harmonizer.  Other than that, it works well.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: osumosan on October 26, 2007, 09:55:10 am
Greg Dixon wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 04:25


I like the slight delay on the cross stick. Is that just the room mic panned to the opposite side?


I cut that out of the snare track for a better level and panned it left. Notice the left hits before the room. Glad you like the mix in general.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: UnderTow on October 26, 2007, 09:56:53 am
Oh Damn. I got the wrong Monday. Lol  Very Happy

Alistair
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 26, 2007, 07:31:51 pm
I'm curious to know what everyone did with the bass drum mics on the stereo tracks? Did anyone change the balance, eq them separately or did you just treat them as the one track as they were?
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 26, 2007, 07:35:20 pm
I used the more dominant side of the kick track and scrapped the other one.  I can't remember which off the top of my head.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: garret on October 26, 2007, 07:46:52 pm
I mixed em both center, after checking to see that the zero crossings were lined up... I liked the blend, and figured you must have kept two two tracks for a reason (inside/outside, or two mics with different tone).

Then I cranked the bass drum fader down... way down.

Lol.

-G
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 26, 2007, 08:35:23 pm
garret wrote on Sat, 27 October 2007 09:46

I liked the blend, and figured you must have kept two two tracks for a reason (inside/outside, or two mics with different tone).

-G



That's right in and out and for the tonal differences. A D112 inside the hole and a Audix D6 outside. I started recording them on a stereo track, as I like  having them on the one fader and it's easy to change the balance or mute one if needed.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: garret on October 26, 2007, 09:19:34 pm
Greg Dixon wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 20:35


That's right in and out and for the tonal differences. A D112 inside the hole and a Audix D6 outside. I started recording them on a stereo track, as I like  having them on the one fader and it's easy to change the balance or mute one if needed.



Yah... I sometimes use stereo tracks for stuff like that too.  Unfortunately my host (Sonar) doesn't allow you to pan & adjust gain for each side of a stereo track separately, but there's a free utility plugin that works a charm.

Windows VST only... sorry mac folks.
http://www.kellyindustries.com/stereo_tools.html
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 26, 2007, 09:36:46 pm
PT has a Trim plug-in. Very handy.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Doug_H on October 26, 2007, 09:53:28 pm
I used them both, layed the right track back and gave it a healthy high shelf boost
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on October 26, 2007, 10:12:05 pm
Greg Dixon wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 03:25


Jason Thompson. Bright and very compressed. Voice could work as is, if it was brought down a bit. Not much in there besides drums, bass and vocals. Could use more level on the kick to fit with the bass and snare. Another one where the sax either needs to be louder or not there at all. The whole track sounds a bit dirty, but otherwise is a pretty good mix, just not much going on harmonically.



Man I just a couple of little tweaks. Left the vox "as-is" but brought them down a bit. Took out some of the 5K + also. Added a bit more of the dirty bass track that was multed and distorted. Added a little more eq between 500 and 1500 on the sax and took the reverb off. Brought up the first organ about 4bd. I love the mix now.

Very cool track. Great sound. I like the other track you did on the Guava myspace page as well. Thanks goes to the band. All of you as well.


Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Eric H. on October 27, 2007, 02:35:29 pm
J-Texas wrote on Thu, 25 October 2007 04:00


teleric - Bright. I like it already. Fat kick. Vox a little low for me. Oops. Actually... all over the place. This mix could use a little compression on the vox. I love the drums man. Bass is a little strong. A lot strong I guess. Distracting. Sax doesn't sit for me stuck way out there to the right. It's odd enough without accentuating it by drawing that much attention to it. So dissonant that lead organ, huh? I guess you liked it. Did you mean to leave the ending not cleaned up?



Well, thanks for liking the drums, i worked hard on them, especially the hats once i got the kick and snare.
After reading the reviews, i went over the mix and realized it was all true. I find it hard to take be the only listener toward the end of the mix.
I'm knew to this, but thanks to IMP, I'm making real progress when mixing.
So, i turned down the bass, compressed a little more the drum buss, and automated the lead vocal. I think that's now the best mix i've ever done (probably until the next).

Also, after reading the mind-blowing threads about recording lower and mixing lower, i've turned down to OdB the master fader, peaking once at -2,9, and staying most of the time @-10dBFS.
As greg said it, i also noted an improvement in sound quality in this session.
It was a lot easier to fix problems and the plugins were a lot more satisfying.
I guess the wind's turning and it's for the best this time.


Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 27, 2007, 09:55:58 pm
teleric wrote on Sun, 28 October 2007 05:35



Also, after reading the mind-blowing threads about recording lower and mixing lower, i've turned down to OdB the master fader, peaking once at -2,9, and staying most of the time @-10dBFS.
As greg said it, i also noted an improvement in sound quality in this session.
It was a lot easier to fix problems and the plugins were a lot more satisfying.
I guess the wind's turning and it's for the best this time.



I've just finished an album, where the first 3 songs were done in July '05 and the rest were done this year. Great for comparing the difference that tracking at lower levels makes. Same band playing the same gear, recording in the same studio. The older songs, where I was peaking close to zero, definitely sound harsher, crunchier, less transparent etc. I received the mastered CD on Friday and I can still hear the difference.

J-Texas wrote on Sat, 27 October 2007 12:12


Very cool track. Great sound. I like the other track you did on the Guava myspace page as well. Thanks goes to the band. All of you as well.



Thanks, it always a pleasure to record a good band with good material. I spoke to Chris from the band a few days ago and they're hoping to come back to record some new songs in January. Rohan, their producer saw them live recently and told me that the new songs are even better, so I'm looking forward to that.

A tip for anyone struggling with getting the level of the bass right. Maybe everyone does this already, but I find the most helpful tool, is the mute button. If you mute the track and and suddenly everything sounds empty or just very different, it's probably too loud. The other trick is to mix for a while without it and then bring it back up gradually until there's enough. Even in a well designed control room, the bass is usually the hardest thing to judge accurately and in the average home studio, must be even harder.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: M Carter on October 28, 2007, 10:43:18 am
I always feel like we should have a big group hug at the end of these IMP threads.

Thanks for the tracks Greg!
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 28, 2007, 05:39:56 pm
Is it over already?  Sad
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: iCombs on October 28, 2007, 07:58:52 pm
LORD no...I've got critiques to do yet.  Just been up to my ass in 2 or 3 projects...should get some time this week.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on October 29, 2007, 12:19:17 pm
i've got my reviews half done.

i'll post what i have if that helps things keep moving.

just been insanely busy....
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Doug_H on October 29, 2007, 11:34:25 pm
well, thanks for the reviews.  

Most of the mixes turned out more "rockin'" than I would have expected, I heard it kind of jazzy for some reason.  

I've done some tweaking (or did) just for the hell of it after reading a few reviews, spread out the accoutics a bit and tried to get the snare off the cieling.  I think it's better.  I'm not a big fan of streo accoustics unless the tune screams for it.  I didn't know, or botehr to listen closely enough in the time I had, if the guitar pairs were separate tracks or stereo mics, so I assumed they were stereo mics and just put the main guitar down the pipe to spearhead the mix.  Spreading it out a bit post "post" did seem to keep it from sticking me in the eye every now and then the way it does in my posted mix.  I suppose some mid/mid eq would have done the same.

At the last minute when I was burning a cd for stereo review I thought in the last burn I did the waveform looked kind of wimpy so I boosted the gain on the limiter and put all my faith in the soft knee <sound of loud buzzer>...

I like these sort of mixing "events" partly because I wouldn't get a chance to mix real drums any other way.  These were some of the nicest performed and recorded tracks I've had to work with yet.  I thought the vocalist was great.  
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on October 31, 2007, 10:36:48 am
here is what i have at the moment.

overall, these mixes are good.  i was surprised how diffferent they were in sonics.  most people went the same direction with the song, but the sonics of the mixes are all over the place.  which is great.

i'll finish up my reviews ASAP.

IMP15 reviews

Garret

I like how you created more of  an intro feel then I think the song itself really had.  I wish the kick and bass were up some, but the subdued vibe works well.  Your vocal sounds great and is really driving the mix.  I like ditching the drums in the outro.  It actually feels good.  Nicely done.

slash5969

interesting intro.  i think that hihat mic might shake some of my fillings out.  I think the drum image is out of balance.  I think the bass should come up to meet the kick drum.  I like the kick level, but you left it?s brother (the bass) a few blocks back.  The vocal delay I like.  Feels a touch digital, but I like the level and idea.

Greg Dixon

I assume this is the client approved mix.  First off, nicely done on the tracking.  You got great sounds.   I?d like to hear your rhythm section pound more, but that?s a taste thing, and for all I know, the band just wanted it chill and told you to do so.  I like how you are using the sax.  I didn?t push mine that hard.  Treated it more as a background texture thing.  I like it driving the mix.  It?s good to shift perspective away from the lead vocal sometimes.  This is a great tune to do it in.

mac

I?d like to hear your snare drum match the top end of the vocal.  I do like the soft drum sounds, that hit pretty good.  That?s a nice balance between pounding drum sounds and keeping it chill.  Are those tom samples?  If so, they fit the vibe of the overheads perfectly.  Maybe your overheads are just dialed back to most people?s.  I like the bass being pretty loud.

Teleric

this is the first mix that reminds me of my own (not that I?m looking for that).  Compressed overheads, present drums, big bass.  I like the slight edge the vocal has, very nice.  It hints at being aggressive, but never gets there.  I really like how you worked this mix.  Very subtle things here and there to shift the focus around.  This is my favorite mix so far.  Well done.

J-Texas

hello compression?..which of course I?m a huge fan of, it would just be nice to have the bottom octave present and accounted for.  Man that vocal is bright.  do you have some monitoring issues on this mix?  I don?t recall your other IMP entries being this thin.  I like the finesse of this mix.  It sounds like you spent some time really working the levels.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: J-Texas on October 31, 2007, 04:26:46 pm
j.hall wrote on Wed, 31 October 2007 09:36

J-Texas

hello compression?..which of course I?m a huge fan of, it would just be nice to have the bottom octave present and accounted for.  Man that vocal is bright.  do you have some monitoring issues on this mix?  I don?t recall your other IMP entries being this thin.  I like the finesse of this mix.  It sounds like you spent some time really working the levels.



Man, I'm retarded. I tried to do a little "mastering". Something I should NOT do! Once I went back and took that shit off and made a couple of tweaks it actually sounded good to me. Bottom end is what I consistently have trouble with in this room (and rightfully so... it's a friggin' bedroom with traps). I am so glad to have the control room finished and I look forward to the crits on the next one to help me figure out what the space is doing. A decently flat and definitely acceptable freq response at the mix position, ProAc monitors and a JSX sub won't hurt things either!  Very Happy  

http://www.thompsoncreative.com/public/Studio/Screen%20Shot.jpg
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on October 31, 2007, 05:18:38 pm
j.hall wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 01:36

[b

Greg Dixon[/b]

I assume this is the client approved mix.  First off, nicely done on the tracking.  You got great sounds.   I?d like to hear your rhythm section pound more, but that?s a taste thing, and for all I know, the band just wanted it chill and told you to do so.  I like how you are using the sax.  I didn?t push mine that hard.  Treated it more as a background texture thing.  I like it driving the mix.  It?s good to shift perspective away from the lead vocal sometimes.  This is a great tune to do it in.




Actually it's quite different to the client approved mix. I thought it would be fun to take it in a different direction. I'd already done my real mix and I wasn't going to do nothing while the rest of you had all the fun!! Very Happy

The 'real' mix is here. http://www.myspace.com/guavatheband
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on November 01, 2007, 01:44:32 pm
next round.  took a break to get some more done.

this round seems like the lead vocal was quiet.  don't forget guys that the common public really only cares about the lead vocal.  it needs to be up, front and center ready for people to sing along with, at least 99.9% of the time.

ATOR

this is great.  Everything is just flowing and working.  You kept it delicate, but it still hits where it needs to.  the verb you are using is great.  My only comment is that the snare seems to have some weird low mid thing pulsing with it?s initial transient.  Easy to over look as your mix really draws me in.  

cjwallgor

distorted and aggressive.  Two things I typically enjoy doing while I mix.  I think the mix works because the sonic vibe is so much different then the vibe of the tune.  It?s not insanely different.  Just enough to shift a perspective and represent the tune in a different space.  I like when mixers do that.  Your use of the sax is nice too.  It comes up louder then the lead vocal, which I like.  Grabs your ear in key moments.  Nicely done.

darkhorseporter

very dark.  The balances are good in that they are all dark, but this feels like mastering couldn?t help.  The vocal is good.  Were you wanting the music to be this dark?  Leaning on the organ is a cool choice.  Most people went for the guitar as the main musical focal point.  I like this shift.

sing sing

you slaughtered it?  Thus far, this feels good and seems like you?ve only muted the drums and bass.  The sax is very smooth sounding.  The vocal is nicely de-essed, something I think many of us (me included) don?t get right.  I love the drums, just wish they had more low end.  Then again, it?s pretty cool all blown out and compressed.  I dig this mix!

osumosan

I think your rhythm section balances are off.  IMO (which it?s just my opinion?..) the bass and kick drum should be balanced in lowend and level.  I think your vocal is a touch quiet.  Acoustic guitars sound great.  The mix feels a little soft for what I typically like.  But I also think it serves the song well.  Not sure how to describe it.  The mix works, there?s just things I?d change.  Might just be an EQ thing in the upper mids and top end.

typek

interesting intro.  I think it would work better to just start the tune right at the verse with the vocal.  Lead vocal is too quiet and I?d like to hear it compressed more.  Just to bring out some of the nuances of his performance.  Bass guitar feels too loud to me, but the tone is solid.  I think in general your sounds are good but your balance is off.  Are you a bass player?  Just curious as it?s the loudest thing in the mix.

Audio~Geek

intro sounds like a bad edit.  I like the verb idea on the vocal but I think the tone of the effect needs some tweaking.  It?s a bit sharp and pointed.  I think a song like this needs a smoother verb.  When things get bigger the kick drum gets lost.  Bass guitar is louder then the drums in places.

cymatics      

a touch dark, but the pumping drums are warming my heart.  I think the lead vocal could be a bit louder as well.  Don?t forget that the vocal is all the common public cares about.  Put it up on top and let those weird effects set the mood.  You?ve thrown the mix into a weird space but all the elements are working together in that space.  You handled all that very well.  The mix feels a little dizzy, which is cool.  
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: osumosan on November 02, 2007, 08:38:23 pm
j.hall wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 13:44

I think your rhythm section balances are off.  IMO (which it?s just my opinion?..) the bass and kick drum should be balanced in lowend and level.  I think your vocal is a touch quiet.  Acoustic guitars sound great.  The mix feels a little soft for what I typically like.  But I also think it serves the song well.  Not sure how to describe it.  The mix works, there?s just things I?d change.  Might just be an EQ thing in the upper mids and top end.


Thanks for the comments. I like to think balance is my strong point. Oh well. I'll try to listen for what you're talking about with the lowend tracks. I usually think of the kick and bass splitting lowend duties. Sometimes the bass does the low lows other times the kick. Maybe the mix needs to be evened out with some compression (a reason to get another compressor!) By soft, of course you don't mean quiet, right? I did leave a lot of headroom, which I'm trying to do now pre-mastering. I always err to the warm side and personally, things around 10k kill me. Does anyone agree or think that I need to bring that back into my mixes?

Best,

Michael
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: Greg Dixon on November 02, 2007, 09:15:20 pm
You'd need to check the other reviews. If you get a consensus, it's an issue. If not it's just one opinion, which might be right and they've picked up something nobody else did or it's just their preference.

One thing I find with these IMPs, is that you'll often get conflicting reviews. One person will say, they love the balance and the air in the tops, while the next says the balance is just not working and it's sounds really dull. Personally, I think all the reviews are worth considering, even if you completely disagree.

People just like different things. If you listen to the released mix of the song used this IMP, you'll find none of the 'tooty' organ. The producer and I loved it, but the client didn't. It's just the way things go.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on November 03, 2007, 03:32:35 pm
osumosan wrote on Fri, 02 November 2007 19:38

By soft, of course you don't mean quiet, right?



soft means no real impact.  so in this case, i'm refering to transient response.  your mix is "soft"

Quote:


Does anyone agree or think that I need to bring that back into my mixes?l



i'd say yes, but with taste.  i think leaning on mastering to "finish" your work is a bad idea.  

i try to deliver mixes to mastering that need nothing.  i can't say that's ever happened, but it's always my goal. we're talking about EQ here, not level.

if it feels dark to you, you should certainly change it.  if it feels good, it's hard to change as you simply aren't hearing it.  could be your monitors too.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: mdifazio on November 19, 2007, 12:10:26 am
First post, don't really know the rules, but I really like the song.  See what you think.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/imp/files/IMP_mdifazio.mp3

Thanks,  Matt.
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: j.hall on November 19, 2007, 10:36:50 am
mdifazio wrote on Sun, 18 November 2007 23:10

First post, don't really know the rules, but I really like the song.  See what you think.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/imp/files/IMP_mdifazio.mp3

Thanks,  Matt.


kinda hard to miss them:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/14857/23/
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: mdifazio on November 19, 2007, 02:11:50 pm
Got it.  My bad.

Please ignore the post. Embarassed
Title: Re: IMP15 discussion
Post by: sstillwell on December 25, 2007, 09:45:21 pm
Crud, too late.

Fun track to mix.

Hope I catch the next one in time.

Scott

http://www.stillwellaudio.com/