R/E/P Community

R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => j. hall => Topic started by: j.hall on January 13, 2007, 03:36:19 pm

Title: guitar cab micing
Post by: j.hall on January 13, 2007, 03:36:19 pm
a lot of my clients have 002, mbox, 001, or mpowered rigs that they do a lot of their own tracking on.  i give a lot of advice and pointers on tracking.  mainly for drums as that is what most people ask me about.

recently, i've noticed a lot of really thin guitar sounds, or really dark.  when i ask, the answers vary greatly in how various guys mic a guitar cab.  seems to me that this is as big, if not a bigger mystery then getting great drum sounds.

so, i'm curious how you guys typically mic a closed back guitar cab, mainly for distortion.

Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: starscream2010 on January 13, 2007, 05:05:09 pm
Lately, my distorted guitar sounds have been a combination of a Beta 52/auditronics pre and an Audix i5/Meek VCQ-1 on the same speaker, right against the grill. I just make sure that the levels & phase match, then bus them down to one track.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 13, 2007, 05:25:45 pm
Hi,

For me great guitar sound secret is making recording with different heads, thease are: Marshal and Mesa.

Don't think sound is depending much on mic as on head itself.
SM57 works fine for me.

Mic position is dependent on how much room you want to capture..
Off center vs on center is more mellow vs more crisp.

I dont record with more then 1 mic. It is better to doubletrack and pan for me.

1 L Marshal
2 R Marshal
3 L Mesa
4 R Mesa

Good sound for me is more work with EQ and Delays not in Micking:)

I think you hear different recordings because probably players are different not so much micking techniques are different. Player is very important:) Some select good range for playing and play without rumbles, etc, others don't.

As you told about drums i think same secret is with guitars:)
No Phasing Issues, parallel compression, etc.

Was i too technical?Smile))))
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 13, 2007, 06:11:51 pm
I tend towards craziness when it comes to guitar amps...but the last guitars I tracked that I really liked I did like this...

1 SM57, 1 BLUE Ball, 1 4050 across the front of the cab, on the same speaker (generally a lower one), and a flipped RE-20 about 2 feet off the back of the cab.  It takes a little wiggling to get everything into something that resembles coherent phase, but it gives me tons of options and ways to control tone without having to reach for EQ, which I really like.  It does take quite a bit of setup and at the mix stage, you are dealing with 4 tracks of guitars, but the sounds I got were definitely worth the work.

The one thing that still drives me nuts is preamps.  I've used my TAB V78's successfully...I've used my Sytek successfully...and i've gotten total clunkers out of both.  I have yet to find that one pre that really screams "electric guitar" to me.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 13, 2007, 08:01:44 pm
iComb may i ask you a question?Smile
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Nizzle on January 13, 2007, 09:40:36 pm
For Heavy distorted sounds:

A ribbon that can hadle the SPL's.(Royer 121,AEA R84, ShinyBox, etc), a SM57 and a good condenser is a great place to start....get the phase right and for God sakes commit to a blend of these mics - don't waste time by recording all  of them to separate tracks.

For cleaner (Fender, small amps) sounds:

The same as above with an additional rear mic(dynamic)and a condenser mic 6-10 feet away and high up from the amp, facing the opposite direction - I like to record the room mic to a separate track....During mix, the room track adds tremendous depth when panning it away from the close mics.

try keeping the close mics about 6 inches off the speaker grill.

Give it a whirl

-t

Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 14, 2007, 02:31:14 am
Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Sat, 13 January 2007 19:01

iComb may i ask you a question?Smile


Fire away!
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 14, 2007, 04:48:15 am
iCombs wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 01:31

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Sat, 13 January 2007 19:01

iComb may i ask you a question?Smile


Fire away!



Does your nickname have something to Do with phasing issues? (i.e. Comb filtering and Combs)

Don't want to convince you, but it is impossible to make phase cocherent for more then 2 micks (if you place them symmetrically in both sides of CAB), by just placing them, moreover it is not possible to make phase coherent even by nugeing tracks in time domain.

All Books usually refet to 3:1 rule, but this don't work Smile
because your signal comes thru different patches (Early reflections) etc and 3:1 is hard to follow if you have many micks and if you don't want roomy sound.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 14, 2007, 11:03:31 am
Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 03:48

iCombs wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 01:31

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Sat, 13 January 2007 19:01

iComb may i ask you a question?Smile


Fire away!



Does your nickname have something to Do with phasing issues? (i.e. Comb filtering and Combs)

Don't want to convince you, but it is impossible to make phase cocherent for more then 2 micks (if you place them symmetrically in both sides of CAB), by just placing them, moreover it is not possible to make phase coherent even by nugeing tracks in time domain.

All Books usually refet to 3:1 rule, but this don't work Smile
because your signal comes thru different patches (Early reflections) etc and 3:1 is hard to follow if you have many micks and if you don't want roomy sound.


I know that technically I'm not supposed to be doing what I'm doing.  But this is one of those times where I've figured out how to get a really great sound precisely BY breaking 3:1.  Yes, there is some comb filtering (and no, my nickname is actually my last name...it's more an Apple joke...iPod, iTrip, iCombs), but if I spend some time making sure everything is placed well, the comb filtering isn't unpleasant, but rather part of the sound.  I'll drag up one of those tracks and post it, along with each mic track, so you can hear what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: pg666 on January 14, 2007, 01:45:07 pm
the only consistent thing i can think of is i almost never put it less than 4-5" away and i almost always aim it dead center. 1 mic on the cab.. usually a nice dynamic mic (senn 421, beyer m88/m201, shure sm7, etc), but i've used ribbons and condensers with good results before. no compression or eq: i just move stuff around until i like it.

what's really struck me lately is how rare it is to find someone with great tone. maybe it's because i've been monkeying with my own setup lately, but i seem to find a lot of '$400 guitar + sloppy playing + JCM 900 in need of a check up' tones with bands i'm hearing. it'd be really nice to record with someone with really great, sparkling tone for once.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: rankus on January 14, 2007, 01:45:45 pm


A good tip I got from somewhere is to place the mic (say a 57) one or two fingers back from the grill pointed dead center at the dome in the middle of the cone.  Then, rotate the mic keeping the position the same, but change the angle, so that the mic points at the intersection of the dome and the cone....   Works great almost 100% of the time.

I tend to use Royers these days though, with the same trick... I used to use royers and 57's together, but usualy prefer just one mic to get a tighter phase.

Sometimes a room mic about three feet back, or even in another room...
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: rankus on January 14, 2007, 01:51:32 pm
pg666 wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 10:45



i seem to be hearing a lot of '$400 guitar + sloppy playing + JCM 900 in need of a check up' tones with bands i'm hearing. it'd be really nice to record with someone with really great, sparkling tone for once.


This is the case in my shop as well.  Drives me nuts when they bring in a CD of Tool saying this the tone I want.. And when i ask what rig they have its Epiphone with some never heard of amp...

I am lucky that I am currently renting my other control room to a pro guitar player with about 20 high end guitars that I can borrow...  We keep a marshal on hand and once I got used to using this one amp for most sessions the tones get dialed a lot faster.  

Moral:  Be prepared to ask the guitarist to play your rig LOL
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 14, 2007, 06:06:58 pm
Man oh man are you guys on to something.  I've been working with this emo band on and off for a year or so...they have TERRIBLE gear...one has a solid-state crate head (but it's like 300 watts and it has EFFECTS, dude...) and the other has a B-52 (swear to god) head and crate cabs...yecch.  When they come over, i have them use real amps, and even then it's hard because they are terribly sloppy players...and they want to sound like geniuses with their crazy arrangements...

That's another thing that really helps...well arranged and voiced guitar parts.  If you want to to dissonance with distortion, you'd probably do better to use a couple notes rather than a big open gross chord.  These guys don't get that at all.

But yeah...even DECENT gear helps...doesn't all have to be Soldano and McInturff or PRS or what have you...just don't bring me your SS Crate and expect me to make you sound like anything decent.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: pg666 on January 14, 2007, 10:26:45 pm
haha, i'm not sure what i'd do in a situation like that.. ie. someone brings in a Crate solid state combo + zoom pedal and expects to sound awesome. i think at that point i would just say screw it and go for a 'so bad that it's kinda cool in its own way' sound.. or convince them to use other gear.

what really gets to me is when people get a decent piece of gear and then sort of develop a cocky attitude like they've hit the apex of guitar tones.. then stagnate. i see that a lot with underground bands; you can tell they saved up for their Les Paul Studios and Marshalls, but their technique sucks, their frets buzz, they use too much gain for what they're doing, the amp sounds dull and in need of service, etc.

so, when you record people like that, just make sure you double track them or something to cover up their shortcomings  Razz
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: John Suitcase on January 14, 2007, 11:54:19 pm
I actually bought a Line6 Toneport for this very reason. I kept running into bands with godawful amps (crate are the worst, followed by some of the open back solid state Fenders). Now, if I can't get a good tone in 15 minutes, I take a DI to a separate track, and reamp it through the Toneport later.

The toneport doesn't have great tones, but it smokes a Crate! And you can reamp the same guitar signal to two or three setups, to get a nice big stereo sound.

If they're playing through a decent rig, I use a 57 or an e609, close enough to get the tone, but backed off until the mic stops breaking up (I hear mics being overdriven a lot, sounds awful. Put your finger in your ear and listen to the playback. If you hear that high frequency grind, that's the mic being overdriven, usually).

Watch for comb filtering, get small amps up off the floor, if you're micing a 4x12, use one of the upper speakers, again be aware that your mic will be picking up the sound from multiple speakers, especially if you back it off a foot or so.

Lastly, I don't eq or compress while tracking, but during mixdown, I run the guitars through a tape-sim plug, with medium saturation, and I might add a little eq at 1500hz or so, if I want the guitars to be a little edgier.

Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: bryanarchy on January 15, 2007, 02:16:30 am
I'm a little late on this one, but if you're gonna give people advice on how to get guitar tones, i would keep it as simple and clear as you can.

Everyone has suggested great ways to get amazing tones, but sometimes multiple mics, multiple cabs, multiple amps, etc may not always be practical or possible. What's worse, is if you're getting people with too many mics on a cab with phasing issues and in the end it all just sounds cruddy. Multiple micing techniques in the hands of hobby recordists can be a disaster.

If someone asked me about a hassle free way to get tone, i'd just tell them to take the grill off the amp and place a sm57 an inch off, parallel to the cone, halfway between the dust cover and the edge. Then tell them to move it either closer to the dust cover or the edge to taste. I know this isn't the most pleasing tone to all of our ears, but it's good enough that if the tone coming out of the amp is good, that this mic placement will work and give a decent representation of the amp's tone. The other thing is that i'm sure that most of us are so familiar with the way that 57's act, it's easy enough to eq and mix it so it sounds presentable.

Like i said, this isn't the most ideal way to record guitars, but it yields predictable and decent results.The main point of this mic setup is that it's hard to screw up and it's achievable by even the biggest of idiot. Yeah, i know i'm cursing myself making that statement...

From here, anything that is done can only improve the tones. If they're brave (well, not that brave) they can add a mic somewhere in the room that sounds pleasing. If the people have a nice mic to use, then all the better. If they have decent preamps, yay! If they want to experiment with more mics on the speakers, cool. Just reinforce to them that you need one USABLE track of guitar and the rest is gravy that will be added for flavoring.

Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 15, 2007, 05:20:51 pm
Hi, iCombs,

Thanks, it can be interesting to hear, really.
Especially separate mics.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: rankus on January 15, 2007, 10:30:35 pm
iCombs wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 15:06



I've been working with this emo band on and off for a year or so... ~SNIP~ If you want to to dissonance with distortion, you'd probably do better to use a couple notes rather than a big open gross chord.  These guys don't get that at all.




LOL!  Ian,  Yesterday I spent about an hour with an emo guitarist trying to get her to either play power chords or turn down the distortion!!!   Full arms length acoustic style (all six strings) strumming on completely dissonant chords, and gain knob on stun.... Small world!

(In the end we managed to come to a compromise:  I turned the gain (distortion) down to almost nil and she strummed away gleefully....  Problem was this is a great song... otherwise I would just use the force to block her out mentally (That's what headphones are for right?... turn em off... put em on!) (then smile and nod in time with the music)
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 16, 2007, 02:41:42 am
rankus wrote on Mon, 15 January 2007 21:30

iCombs wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 15:06



I've been working with this emo band on and off for a year or so... ~SNIP~ If you want to to dissonance with distortion, you'd probably do better to use a couple notes rather than a big open gross chord.  These guys don't get that at all.




LOL!  Ian,  Yesterday I spent about an hour with an emo guitarist trying to get her to either play power chords or turn down the distortion!!!   Full arms length acoustic style (all six strings) strumming on completely dissonant chords, and gain knob on stun.... Small world!

(In the end we managed to come to a compromise:  I turned the gain (distortion) down to almost nil and she strummed away gleefully....  Problem was this is a great song... otherwise I would just use the force to block her out mentally (That's what headphones are for right?... turn em off... put em on!) (then smile and nod in time with the music)



If it is just Plain Power Chord, i think you can use Sample?
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 16, 2007, 11:57:36 am
Alright gents...I singled out some stuff, and I think I've probably provided more info than you asked for!

http://www.lightspeedgroup.biz/Lightspeed%20Group%20file%20t ransfer/ProSoundWeb/

You'll find samples of the guitar soloed but with all 4 mics up, a solo track of each mic, and a snippet of the whole track.  Note: in the heavy section, there are only 2 guitars going.

Thoughts?  Comments?  Cries of heresy?
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: el duderino on January 16, 2007, 12:07:09 pm
I usually use a 57 and a 421. Although the album im working on now I used those along with a 121. (First time with a 121 and I loved it). All 3 mics about 4" back off the cone all lined up next to each other evenly (but not touching). then blend.

What I really like to do, aside from having a choice in guitars and amps, is use a couple amps at the same time. The last record I did we used an Orange combo and a Rivera most of the time, but a mesa head into a marshall 4x10 with an AC30 along side was substitued sometimes or used for a double.

i think different yet complementary guitar tones are what does it. They fit together in interesting ways. That said, I'd LOVE to get a deciever.

Rock gtrs are one of those things where I feel you either need to call in alot of favors and borrow amps from everyone you know or you choose to go to a studio because they have a ton of amps. otherwise throw a 57 in front of your amp, turn the distortion down (most likely), do a double and move on.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: rankus on January 16, 2007, 02:16:47 pm
iCombs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 08:57

Alright
Thoughts?  Comments?  Cries of heresy?


Sounds great Ian.  I  only listened to the "in context" and "mixed" mp3's... I would probably do a very subtle mid scoop perhaps -1 or -2 db ... but it could be my home monitoring setup that I listened on.

PS: Heresy!  
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 16, 2007, 03:06:28 pm
I should also point out that both guitar tracks were a well-modified Les Paul Studio (probably the heaviest sounding LP I've ever heard or played) into a one-of-a-kind Soldano SLO with KT66's and into a Soldano cab loaded with V30's.

Having a great source is kinda like cheating, but it doesn't get you in trouble.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 16, 2007, 04:25:14 pm
Hello Gents,

Some heresy form a gent:

I would like to share my reference for guitar recording.
i have listened to your tracks and it seems what this is "harsh", sorry of cause. Personally i don't like those grainy recordings... really don't

I don't know why you have this harshness, i don't know your gear.
Probably you have some solid state chain there or something.
i think what even separate mics have it.
Regarding your doubling, i still feel "space monkey" effect, especially on fadeout. i also think you have too much low mids.

This refernce comes from well know book.
I don't know which mic they used, all i know it is Marshal head and Mesa head. And i also know what they HAVEN't used more then ONE, EIN, UNO mic to peack each amp.

i have volume compensated thease tracks to make it comparable with yours..

Record guitar like this - become a star:)
All i can tell you: Many micks is wrong direction, notice how this amps complement each other frequency wise? you won't be able to get something like this with many mics on the same track...
What you will get is a frequency fighting and space monkey.
And with different amps it is possible to do much better, simply because: Each amp have different frequency formant!

Also notice how comping was made...this is something to write down..

http://download.yousendit.com/A110FBA218B8896D

Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Iain Graham on January 16, 2007, 04:36:19 pm
I bought a pair of Royer 121s last summer, and they go up whenever I can use em. Coupled with an Audix I5, and a DI feed for Amp Farm.

I'll set the Royer up as close as I can get it to the cone (shock mount gets in the road), and then match the I5's diaphragm position with that of the royer as best as I can. If I get it wrong, I'll move til it's right.

Amp Farm just adds an option later, although it can be good to add to the real thing.

I've been known to filter all the low end out of the I5 and use just enough of it to brighten the royer without using an EQ,

If I'm doing live off the floor (royers on overheads), I'll use a 414, maybe with an I5. I've got 414s on all my live specs for guitars as well.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 16, 2007, 06:48:16 pm
Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25

Hello Gents,

Some heresy form a gent:

I would like to share my reference for guitar recording.
i have listened to your tracks and it seems what this is "harsh", sorry of cause. Personally i don't like those grainy recordings... really don't

I don't know why you have this harshness, i don't know your gear.
Probably you have some solid state chain there or something.
i think what even separate mics have it.
Regarding your doubling, i still feel "space monkey" effect, especially on fadeout. i also think you have too much low mids.

This refernce comes from well know book.
I don't know which mic they used, all i know it is Marshal head and Mesa head. And i also know what they HAVEN't used more then ONE, EIN, UNO mic to peack each amp.

i have volume compensated thease tracks to make it comparable with yours..

Record guitar like this - become a star:)
All i can tell you: Many micks is wrong direction, notice how this amps complement each other frequency wise? you won't be able to get something like this with many mics on the same track...
What you will get is a frequency fighting and space monkey.
And with different amps it is possible to do much better, simply because: Each amp have different frequency formant!

Also notice how comping was made...this is something to write down..

http://download.yousendit.com/A110FBA218B8896D




I'm not sure what exactly you mean by space monkey effect.  I do know what you mean about mixing amps, though.  Normally I try to at least put up a different cab for overdubs, but really, that guitar sound kicked my ass so hard that I just doubled up...if that's worth anything.  Also, I didn't WANT to get the sound of different amps.  This is from a band that only has one guitar player, and I wanted to maintain some of that unity (even though I played one of the guitar parts).  

I don't in any way mean to say that you don't raise valid points, because you do...there are a million and a half good examples of a guitar recorded with a single mic.  There are also a lot of good examples of guitars amps recorded with up to a half-dozen mics...if I had a ribbon, you could bet it would be up with all my other mics, and that (at least for really big rock guitars like these), I'd be using it with at least a couple others.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: redfro on January 17, 2007, 12:19:26 am
Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25

Hello Gents,

Some heresy form a gent:

I would like to share my reference for guitar recording.
i have listened to your tracks and it seems what this is "harsh", sorry of cause. Personally i don't like those grainy recordings... really don't

I don't know why you have this harshness, i don't know your gear.
Probably you have some solid state chain there or something.
i think what even separate mics have it.
Regarding your doubling, i still feel "space monkey" effect, especially on fadeout. i also think you have too much low mids.



It's funny you say that, cause the sample you posted sounds kinda thin to me.

But it's all about how it works in the song. I didn't find anything wrong with Ian's sounds...in context they work fine.

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25


This refernce comes from well know book.
I don't know which mic they used, all i know it is Marshal head and Mesa head. And i also know what they HAVEN't used more then ONE, EIN, UNO mic to peack each amp.

i have volume compensated thease tracks to make it comparable with yours..

Record guitar like this - become a star:)
All i can tell you: Many micks is wrong direction, notice how this amps complement each other frequency wise? you won't be able to get something like this with many mics on the same track...
What you will get is a frequency fighting and space monkey.
And with different amps it is possible to do much better, simply because: Each amp have different frequency formant!

Also notice how comping was made...this is something to write down..

http://download.yousendit.com/A110FBA218B8896D




While I agree that in most cases the single mic technique is best, if you're going for big rock guitars you sometimes need to go for more. And if you are careful you can avoid most phasing issues, or at least get them to work for you.

http://royerlabs.com/photos/rec_tips/el_gtr/elgtr_session_photos/DevilDriver1_LG.jpg

This is what Ross did for the Devil Driver guitars, and you can't say that isn't a good heavy guitar sound.

But,as always, YMMV...


PS...am I the only guy who hates the Masa Dual Rectifier sound?


Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 17, 2007, 02:44:12 am
redfro wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 23:19

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25

Hello Gents,

Some heresy form a gent:

I would like to share my reference for guitar recording.
i have listened to your tracks and it seems what this is "harsh", sorry of cause. Personally i don't like those grainy recordings... really don't

I don't know why you have this harshness, i don't know your gear.
Probably you have some solid state chain there or something.
i think what even separate mics have it.
Regarding your doubling, i still feel "space monkey" effect, especially on fadeout. i also think you have too much low mids.



It's funny you say that, cause the sample you posted sounds kinda thin to me.

But it's all about how it works in the song. I didn't find anything wrong with Ian's sounds...in context they work fine.

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25


This refernce comes from well know book.
I don't know which mic they used, all i know it is Marshal head and Mesa head. And i also know what they HAVEN't used more then ONE, EIN, UNO mic to peack each amp.

i have volume compensated thease tracks to make it comparable with yours..

Record guitar like this - become a star:)
All i can tell you: Many micks is wrong direction, notice how this amps complement each other frequency wise? you won't be able to get something like this with many mics on the same track...
What you will get is a frequency fighting and space monkey.
And with different amps it is possible to do much better, simply because: Each amp have different frequency formant!

Also notice how comping was made...this is something to write down..

http://download.yousendit.com/A110FBA218B8896D




While I agree that in most cases the single mic technique is best, if you're going for big rock guitars you sometimes need to go for more. And if you are careful you can avoid most phasing issues, or at least get them to work for you.

http://royerlabs.com/photos/rec_tips/el_gtr/elgtr_session_photos/DevilDriver1_LG.jpg

This is what Ross did for the Devil Driver guitars, and you can't say that isn't a good heavy guitar sound.

But,as always, YMMV...


PS...am I the only guy who hates the Masa Dual Rectifier sound?




Well it is not thin at all..
It makes much more more harmonics in upper spectrum... Which is very important.
You think what iCommbs sound feels thicker (maYBE havier) because you just have more lomids there... But Most of time you will use lomids from Base...  So if you have base - use it.
and it is more dense with even 2 tracks vs 4 tracks.
It sounds MELLOW, which is much warmer which is very important.
Space monkey are phasing issues. Then Comb filtering occurs, it sounds like monkeys in a space... well like you put pressure on a steal thing what is going to break...

Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 17, 2007, 03:42:06 am
[quote title=redfro wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 23:19]
Quote:


PS...am I the only guy who hates the Masa Dual Rectifier sound?



Nope.  For that matter, I'm not a fan of new Marshall, either.  Give me Bogner any day.  Although I did have really good luck with a Mesa Single Rec combo (into a 4x12 with Greenbacks) as a counterpart to that Soldano.  It did this great midrange thing that filled in that big wide Soldano.  But on it's own...um...it was okay...
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 17, 2007, 03:50:30 am
Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 01:44

Well it is not thin at all..
It makes much more more harmonics in upper spectrum... Which is very important.
You think what iCommbs sound feels thicker (maYBE havier) because you just have more lomids there... But Most of time you will use lomids from Base...  So if you have base - use it.


I'm just going to go back to what I said before...I got the sound I was looking for in this situation.  I wanted the guitars to have an exaggerated sense of bottom end so that the palm muting would stand out correctly, and so that the guitars sounded BIG.  And it's not just coming from the low mids...it's the fact that 1-2kHz isn't all up in your face grinding away making the guitars sound honky...it's that the RE20 in back captures room ambience and adds a sense of depth that the close mics simply can't, and to add the low end from the back of the amp cabinet resonating.  It's a combination of a lot of things that made that particular sound.  It is probably the best hard rock guitar sound I've recorded to date.  And I'm going to try to do it again pretty soon.  

I understand completely what you are saying about one carefully positioned microphone.  I do that, as well.  I've done it before and I'll continue to do it...but nine times out of ten, there is no one mic that gets me the sound I want to hear.  And if I've gotten the sound I hear in the room to come through my monitors, then I've done it "right," regardless of any engineering rules or maxims.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Thomas Lester on January 17, 2007, 09:56:15 am
Quote:

PS...am I the only guy who hates the Masa Dual Rectifier sound?


No...   you aren't the only one.  However...  I won't say I hate it.  But I hate the way most people use it.  It can work in the right hands, but 99% of the time is just sounds like butt.

-Tom
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: TheViking on January 17, 2007, 01:56:46 pm
[quote title=redfro wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 00:19]
Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25




PS...am I the only guy who hates the Masa Dual Rectifier sound?





Another no here.   VHT Pittbull head is more versatile and will do exactly what those Dual Rec's wanna do and sound a million times fuller and the tone is crazy.   If only they weren't so damn expensive.

For a recent guitar driven FooFighters-esque record I worked on I took the following approach.   Guitar One - Soldano Head through old Marshall classic slant cab.   421 and AT4033 on that amp through a pair of RCA BA31C mic pres.   Guitar Two - Vox AC30 through another Marshall classic cab.   57 and e609 Silver on that amp through two channels of Dan Alexander Neve 1272.   The results were pretty cool.   Listen to HotHouse here to hear a sample...   http://www.myspace.com/longsinceforgotten

Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: iCombs on January 17, 2007, 04:25:29 pm
TheViking wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 12:56



Another no here.   VHT Pittbull head is more versatile and will do exactly what those Dual Rec's wanna do and sound a million times fuller and the tone is crazy.   If only they weren't so damn expensive.

For a recent guitar driven FooFighters-esque record I worked on I took the following approach.   Guitar One - Soldano Head through old Marshall classic slant cab.   421 and AT4033 on that amp through a pair of RCA BA31C mic pres.   Guitar Two - Vox AC30 through another Marshall classic cab.   57 and e609 Silver on that amp through two channels of Dan Alexander Neve 1272.   The results were pretty cool.   Listen to HotHouse here to hear a sample...   http://www.myspace.com/longsinceforgotten




Sounds good...raw and girthy without being too dominant.  

The more I hear 421's on guitar cabs, the less I like them.  They round off the top and have this goofy mid bump that makes the guitars sound like they are puffing their cheeks out...kinda bloated in a way...maybe it's the Marshall cabs they tend to be in front of, maybe it's the G12M75's, which, as a speaker, are as close to my least favorite as something can get.  Maybe I'm just insane.  That last one is a really good possibility.

That said, I really do like the way you used those sounds...they seem to be in the right perspective for the music...big but not overbearing (like my guitar tracks are...definitely overbearing...but then again, that was what we were looking for...)...definitly found a good fit in the mix.
Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: j.hall on January 17, 2007, 05:05:12 pm
WOW, this thread exploded!!!!!!!!

i need time to review.  i have a feeling i'll have more mic'ing techniques ideas then i'll have time for.

Title: Re: guitar cab micing
Post by: Iain Graham on January 17, 2007, 06:39:01 pm
I know what you mean about 421s. I had one on a bass cab at a gig a while back, and it was totally useless.

So much spill, even though it was right in front of an SVT giving it's all. Made very useless by al the drums in it.

The bass tone I was getting from it wasn't very pleasant either!

I much prefer 441s. Tighter pattern and the tone benefits from this.

I've been using AT4050s on toms recently, and any time I've gone back to 421s I've beer very dissapointed.

I used to really like them, but have been put off every time I've used them recently.