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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => j. hall => Topic started by: j.hall on January 02, 2007, 10:48:55 am

Title: IMP9 begins.
Post by: j.hall on January 02, 2007, 10:48:55 am
http://www.prosoundweb.com/imp

username: psw-imp
password: imp!234

this will be the login for all future IMPs, please save it.  

this is also the place where you can upload mp3's should you not have your own server space available.  all mp3's MUST be labeled the IMP we are on and your screenname
i.e. IMP9Jhall.mp3

i will leave the RAR and the associated mp3 mixes up for the duration of two IMP (which means there will be two IMPs on the server at a time.  so IMP9 will come down when the RAR for IMP11 goes up.


you have one week starting from today, Jan. 2nd, 2007
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 02, 2007, 11:56:06 am
I just wanted to say what server connection is great, i have one gigabyte per second...
Also web interface is also cool, much easier to use then yousendit.

Thanks to PSW and JHall for negotiating.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: j.hall on January 02, 2007, 01:41:56 pm
there was no negotiation, PSW set this up for me after seeing how much traffic IMPs are moving.  they wanted to be hosting the entire event themselves, and i totally agreed.

there were other things on the site that required FTP space so they just gave me a small chunk and dreamed the web interface up on their own.

i literally just tested it when it was done and said thank you a dozen times.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: rankus on January 02, 2007, 02:20:30 pm


Sweet!
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: maxim on January 02, 2007, 08:27:42 pm
luken gude
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scottoliphant on January 02, 2007, 08:53:53 pm
great tune
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: chrisj on January 02, 2007, 09:49:01 pm
Is this Henchman track a reference? I can't see anything saying I mustn't hear it, but there's a rule saying it shouldn't be there yet so I'd like a word on whether I should be ignoring it or not Smile
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: j.hall on January 02, 2007, 10:42:40 pm
i pulled it down.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: henchman on January 02, 2007, 10:57:13 pm
chrisj wrote on Tue, 02 January 2007 18:49

Is this Henchman track a reference? I can't see anything saying I mustn't hear it, but there's a rule saying it shouldn't be there yet so I'd like a word on whether I should be ignoring it or not Smile



My bad.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: chrisj on January 02, 2007, 11:10:32 pm
OK, I deleted my copy. Damn you're quick Henchman! I'll check you out in a week Smile
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: iCombs on January 03, 2007, 02:33:21 am
...and the panties moisten.  Can't wait to put it up.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: six_wax on January 03, 2007, 12:59:39 pm
Excited to participate, as I have some downtime this week. Kudos to j.hall for such a constructive [& instructive!] forum.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scott volthause on January 03, 2007, 02:25:59 pm
great tune.

can i ask a really stupid question?

are there two drummers? or just two drum performances to comp - edit and whatnot?

also, is anyone else getting some funky static on the rhodes track about a minute from the end?
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: iCombs on January 03, 2007, 03:27:31 pm
scott volthause wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 13:25

great tune.

can i ask a really stupid question?

are there two drummers? or just two drum performances to comp - edit and whatnot?

also, is anyone else getting some funky static on the rhodes track about a minute from the end?


If I'm getting static, I can't hear it through all the compression!  This is a seriously fun track.  I downloaded it at 1:30 and was up til something like 3:30 playing with it.  These IMP's always get me excited!
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: j.hall on January 03, 2007, 04:08:10 pm
scott volthause wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 13:25

great tune.

can i ask a really stupid question?

are there two drummers? or just two drum performances to comp - edit and whatnot?

also, is anyone else getting some funky static on the rhodes track about a minute from the end?


didn't ntice any static here.  just make it work.

drums:  the answer is yes......HAHAHAHA

sorry, you have to fly blind on this one.

do what you think is the best move, that's what this whole thing is about.....you making the track what you think it needs to be without any input.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scott volthause on January 03, 2007, 05:16:19 pm
j.hall wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 16:08


didn't ntice any static here.  just make it work.

drums:  the answer is yes......HAHAHAHA

sorry, you have to fly blind on this one.

do what you think is the best move, that's what this whole thing is about.....you making the track what you think it needs to be without any input.


i'll try to unrar the archive again. maybe i got something on that track.

as for the drums, i totally understand the "make it work" paradigm, but i would think even worst case where a band dumps tracks in your lap they would mention if they had 2 drummers?

ah well. i'll make it work.  Twisted Evil

thanks!
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: ScotcH on January 03, 2007, 05:35:53 pm
There is another mp3 on there now ... any way we can shut off uploading until the close of the IMP?
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: ATOR on January 03, 2007, 06:30:54 pm

Maybe we can add to the rules that you're supposed to submit the mix the way you would send it to a mastering engineer. The first few IMPs had submissions that were limited and compressed so hard that it was impossible to tell how the mix sounded. There's no need here to impress with a loud mix. This is where we exchange mixing skills, not make-it-loud mastering skills.

Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: rankus on January 03, 2007, 06:39:16 pm

On the "Rhodes" track:  

Mine is full out distortion.  Sounds like it was tracked through a mini gtr amp dimed.....   I had asumed this was the intention, but now I read the other posts above, I have to ask: "is the Rhodes track supposed to sound like a Rhodes or is it an effects track?

Dosent matter really... I did my mix with is as it was... neat song.. took me 45 mins.  (that will be $300 please)(easy money if it was a paying gig)
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: maxim on January 03, 2007, 07:51:06 pm
timely song, with more americans now killed in iraq than in 9/11

i suppose, bush has now taken over osama as the head of the axis of evil

i'm finished with the mix, can i upload it?

surely, the idea of this is not to peek (it's not like it's graded or anything)

i don't like the idea of leaving it til one day next week

anything can happen, like the internet can go down or the broadband can cut out, or the dog could eat it
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scottoliphant on January 03, 2007, 08:00:42 pm
there is distortion on that guy, think it's on purpose. Personally I like all the little noise things (like the little bit of line noise / distortion on the wurli). Reminds me that real instruments still make music.  This is a fun song to mix. hats off to the band and engineeer. can't wait to get it uploaded (finished last night)

edit on preview:
Quote:

i'm finished with the mix, can i upload it?

surely, the idea of this is not to peek (it's not like it's graded or anything)



J rules with a heavy hand =) i bet that a lot of folks are close to being done though (or are done).


Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: j.hall on January 03, 2007, 09:32:01 pm
scott volthause wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 16:16


as for the drums, i totally understand the "make it work" paradigm, but i would think even worst case where a band dumps tracks in your lap they would mention if they had 2 drummers?

ah well. i'll make it work.  Twisted Evil

thanks!


no, you are totally right, this is just an excercise of "more freedom" for you.  so where it might be frustrating, try to make it more "freeing"

the mixes should be submitted as you would submit for client approval.  for me that means bumping the level up with no gain reduction on the limiter.  not too interested in discussing it this time, i'm all ears for future IMPs

upload your song early and i'll delete it.

people might be done, but some one might be out of town and grab the tune over the weekend.  i don't want any mixes to be heard prior to tuesday.  they will only influence your mixing decisions.

consult the rules thread if something isn't clear.....and let me know if the rules thread doesn't cover anything.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: henchman on January 03, 2007, 10:57:13 pm
j.hall wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 18:32

scott volthause wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 16:16


as for the drums, i totally understand the "make it work" paradigm, but i would think even worst case where a band dumps tracks in your lap they would mention if they had 2 drummers?

ah well. i'll make it work.  Twisted Evil

thanks!


no, you are totally right, this is just an excercise of "more freedom" for you.  so where it might be frustrating, try to make it more "freeing"

the mixes should be submitted as you would submit for client approval.  for me that means bumping the level up with no gain reduction on the limiter.  not too interested in discussing it this time, i'm all ears for future IMPs

upload your song early and i'll delete it.

people might be done, but some one might be out of town and grab the tune over the weekend.  i don't want any mixes to be heard prior to tuesday.  they will only influence your mixing decisions.

consult the rules thread if something isn't clear.....and let me know if the rules thread doesn't cover anything.



All these things should be in the rules.
I didn't know that:
A. We were supposed tow ait untill the last day to upload.
B. No limiting. I'll re-do my output.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 04, 2007, 04:59:07 am
I have proposition to use numbers instead of names like in WUMP
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: garret on January 04, 2007, 10:36:28 am
Interesting track, J.... I like the tune, and I like the challenge of making this work.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: j.hall on January 04, 2007, 02:37:06 pm
henchman wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 21:57



All these things should be in the rules.
I didn't know that:
A. We were supposed tow ait untill the last day to upload.
B. No limiting. I'll re-do my output.


item A is certainly covered in my rules thread, perhaps not in the proper location, but it's in there.  i'll edit that thread after this IMP

item B has been hot topic since we started these things.

i limit my mixes.  whether or not the gain reduction meter does anything, i'm still bumping the level up witha limiter.

i can see why we shouldn't do it for this particular excersize, i just haven't pulled the trigger to do anything about it.

as of now, i couldn't care any less if you limit it or not.  i only want the submiting rules to be followed.

properly name your mp3
192k mp3's only
submit on the deadline, not before or after.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Thomas Lester on January 04, 2007, 08:45:36 pm
CRAP.  I didn't realize that we weren't supposed to upload.   Embarassed

J - Can you pull my down.  I downloaded, mixed, uploaded...  THEN read everyone elses posts (where I notice that you aren't supposed to upload.

So, is there an official date that we upload on?

-Tom
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: garret on January 04, 2007, 11:46:37 pm
Dude, you're so busted.     Twisted Evil  

One week from when J released IMP9 is um, Jan 9th.

-G
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: j.hall on January 05, 2007, 11:45:09 am
DELETED

seems like we have a lot of selective readers out there.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: six_wax on January 05, 2007, 11:54:23 am
what's the name of the song?  Razz
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: rankus on January 05, 2007, 02:50:06 pm
six_wax wrote on Fri, 05 January 2007 08:54

what's the name of the song?  Razz


IMP9  Cool
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Tom C on January 05, 2007, 03:52:48 pm
j.hall wrote on Thu, 04 January 2007 03:32


people might be done, but some one might be out of town and grab the tune over the weekend.


Yep, that's me. Can't do much during weekdays for some time.
Mucho appreciated.

Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 06, 2007, 10:08:22 am
Ho Ho ho:)

I'm ready too.
I like drum sound so much as much as i hate Guitar playing:))))
Mostly not because of sound, but because guitarist probably was drunk!!!!!!!!!! and recorded this song in the morning after party:)

I have intentionally not edited guitar!, and i won't spent my time on this and i hope my concept will be understood even if guitar will be out of time and not comping good with vocals:) SIMPLY because i CANNOT REPLACE THIS GUITAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was it so difficult to record powercords in different tracks, main rytmical idea to different and arpegios to the different? and not have all this in single track while switching from one to another and playing out of time.

I wonder how many takes was taken before record something like this.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: henchman on January 06, 2007, 02:38:36 pm
Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 07:08

Ho Ho ho:)

I'm ready too.
I like drum sound so much as much as i hate Guitar playing:))))
Mostly not because of sound, but because guitarist probably was drunk!!!!!!!!!! and recorded this song in the morning after party:)

I have intentionally not edited guitar!, and i won't spent my time on this and i hope my concept will be understood even if guitar will be out of time and not comping good with vocals:) SIMPLY because i CANNOT REPLACE THIS GUITAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was it so difficult to record powercords in different tracks, main rytmical idea to different and arpegios to the different? and not have all this in single track while switching from one to another and playing out of time.

I wonder how many takes was taken before record something like this.




Thank you. I thought I would be the only person who felt the same way.
I edited the drums, and used the one or 2 sections that as far as timing, were close to being played in the same week.
I then edited the bass to that. That wa sit for editing.
I found it to be lazy and bad playing. With no effort at all put into doing something good. The vocals sounded like one takes. And in this case, that's a bad thing.

It seems like "Indie" has becomen synonymous with "bad".
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Nizzle on January 06, 2007, 04:18:35 pm
henchman wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 19:38

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 07:08

Ho Ho ho:)

I'm ready too.
I like drum sound so much as much as i hate Guitar playing:))))
Mostly not because of sound, but because guitarist probably was drunk!!!!!!!!!! and recorded this song in the morning after party:)

I have intentionally not edited guitar!, and i won't spent my time on this and i hope my concept will be understood even if guitar will be out of time and not comping good with vocals:) SIMPLY because i CANNOT REPLACE THIS GUITAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was it so difficult to record powercords in different tracks, main rytmical idea to different and arpegios to the different? and not have all this in single track while switching from one to another and playing out of time.

I wonder how many takes was taken before record something like this.




Thank you. I thought I would be the only person who felt the same way.
I edited the drums, and used the one or 2 sections that as far as timing, were close to being played in the same week.
I then edited the bass to that. That wa sit for editing.
I found it to be lazy and bad playing. With no effort at all put into doing something good. The vocals sounded like one takes. And in this case, that's a bad thing.

It seems like "Indie" has becomen synonymous with "bad".



Wow....editing the drums,bass, gtr, etc?

Of course your entitled to your opinion, but the way I see it - an artist graciously allowed this forum to use his song and using adjectives like "bad" or "lazy" seem out of line to me....But most interesting to me is the possibility that you just don't "get" this music....perhaps it's not always about technical ability...perhaps it's mostly(always) about communicating a feeling and a compelling vibe...it seems to me substantially editing a track like this is not only innapropriate(idiomatically speaking), but also counter-intuitive...you may find you've edited away ALL of the vibe and "indy-ness" of it....Again, we are all entitled to our own opinion, and i usually keep mine to myself, but these sorts of comments(the ones I've quoted) seem to A: Miss the point of the music and B: come off as snobby and close minded.

Anyway - I enjoyed the song...this particular song is one of the few that strikes me as text book "Indie Rock" which is what this whole thing is about right?

Look forward to hearing the huge variances in everyones mixes - which is exactly what a song like this yields....great choice.

-t








Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scottoliphant on January 06, 2007, 05:00:02 pm
what nizzle said. i think the song is great, gushes vibe and love, sounds like real people playing, maybe that's what you don't like?

Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: ScotcH on January 06, 2007, 05:32:21 pm
If you solo the drums, yes ... they are terribly out of time.  However, in the context of the whole mix, they work just fine, and I didn't feel they needed any editing at all.  The doubled bass on the other hand, well, I did edit a bit of that, but certainly not to the point where it sounds like a machine.   I loved the guitar sound, and automation was the key to get the various guitar parts to sit right.  Good tune overall ... this was really easy for me, where usually I struggle and over-fiddle with things for days.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: gatino on January 06, 2007, 06:11:19 pm
i'm not gonna edit anything, all as is. feels good to me too. well, that tambourine has me thinking...i guess i just don't understand that part.

so this is due tuesday, right?
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: garret on January 06, 2007, 06:19:53 pm
I guess everyone's entitled to an opinion... Here's mine.

There's a ton of good in these tracks.  The sum is greater than the parts... I've listened to my (semi) final mix now about 10 times today, just because I can't stop.  And it's one of the better things I've worked on in a while...   My three year old loves it too, and he's got good taste, honest.

Folks, this is an indie rock forum... if you don't get indie rawk, maybe you should:

a) buy some: pixies, fugazi, sonic youth, minutemen, guided by voices, yo la tengo, built to spill, pavement, and modest mouse records, and get up to speed
or
b) find something else to do.

-Garret
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: ATOR on January 06, 2007, 07:03:50 pm

I don't think sloppy playing makes a song more real, human or more emotional. I'd pick a solid groove anytime, I don't mind if it's loose but it has to make me move. Then again I don't have any records of the bands Garret just mentioned  Very Happy

So I just edited the drums and bass to a grid. I never had any live drums to edit and this was a nice opportunity to figure out how to do that.

We'll see if my brutal editing has robbed the song of it's essence or indieness. At least it will make a nice discussion when we can listen to different approaches side by side.

Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: garret on January 06, 2007, 07:16:32 pm
What's funny is, despite all my indie rock preaching, I also wielded a heavy knife in editing the drums... the challenge of this track, to me, is that it's a damn fine tune, with some terrific tracks and some not so terrific ones.   What bothers me is blanket statements about the artists being lazy, etc....   sometimes, folks, that's the best a band can do.

There's something great in there, and perhaps these guys struggle with locking in a groove because they're not genius players.   But that doesn't make the music bad and fodder for cheap criticism...  it just means your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to help find the diamond in the rough.

-Garret

Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Nizzle on January 06, 2007, 07:21:49 pm
ATOR wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 00:03


I don't think sloppy playing makes a song more real, human or more emotional. I'd pick a solid groove anytime, I don't mind if it's loose but it has to make me move. Then again I don't have any records of the bands Garret just mentioned  Very Happy




Who ever said sloppy playing ever made a song more real? That's as silly as saying super tight playing makes a song better(can you imagine "Slanted and Enchanted" with Vinnie Colaiuta playing drums - It would be a fricken disaster). The fact of the matter is that NONE of these things make or break a song....either the right things are happening or they're not - it's your job to to be able to discern what IS and what ISN'T working - end of story(as far as I'm concerned).

-t


Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: henchman on January 06, 2007, 08:26:25 pm
garretg wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:19

I guess everyone's entitled to an opinion... Here's mine.

There's a ton of good in these tracks.  The sum is greater than the parts... I've listened to my (semi) final mix now about 10 times today, just because I can't stop.  And it's one of the better things I've worked on in a while...   My three year old loves it too, and he's got good taste, honest.

Folks, this is an indie rock forum... if you don't get indie rawk, maybe you should:

a) buy some: pixies, fugazi, sonic youth, minutemen, guided by voices, yo la tengo, built to spill, pavement, and modest mouse records, and get up to speed
or
b) find something else to do.

-Garret



You know what, I've heard lots of indie rock that, allthough not edited to a grid, feels great. This is simply, IMO, bad playing. I'm fien when things move around tempowise.  This is not the case here.
A good exampel of excellent playing where the tempo moves around, for me, is "Brand new caddilliac" by The Clash. That was a first take recording. When they finished the beds for that track, the produicer said "great, that ones in the can". The band protested and said it was the first take, and the tempo moved around. The producer said, it's great, let's move on.

And that song rocks.

So, learn how to play togetehr first, before you go into a studio and try to be one take wonders.
I've seen many an indie band put on their release that they recorded all their songs in 2 days, and it wa sall one take. So, they're starting off by putting an excuse on the label.

The Beatles recorded their first album in an afternoon.

The Stray cats recorded their first album in 5 days, and if you listen to "Rock this Town", you'll hear part where Setzer plays a lick in the completely wrong key. But it deosn't matter, becasue it rocks.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scottoliphant on January 06, 2007, 08:51:24 pm
Quote:

So, learn how to play togetehr first, before you go into a studio and try to be one take wonders.
I'd take this ANY day over 95% of whats on the radio, that's perfectly in time / in tune etc. just a difference in aesthetic i suppose. It just doesn't sound that bad to me.
Quote:

I've seen many an indie band put on their release that they recorded all their songs in 2 days, and it was all one take. So, they're starting off by putting an excuse on the label.
I don't think anyone here would argue that there are just as many bad bands in this genre as any other.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Nizzle on January 06, 2007, 10:27:07 pm
[/quote]

So, learn how to play togetehr first, before you go into a studio and try to be one take wonders.
I've seen many an indie band put on their release that they recorded all their songs in 2 days, and it wa sall one take. So, they're starting off by putting an excuse on the label.
[/quote]


Any idea how many important records you would have wiped out of existence with the sort of hard line narrow mindedness expressed above?

Look - I get it - you don't like this music. Fine , Cool...End it there. You know - I remember listening to the Pixies "Surfer Rosa", the first Stooges record an the Velvet Underground for the first time and I Fricken Hated them. You know why? At the time, I would have said that I hated it because they can't play there instruments and proceed to point out the various technical issues....but later in life - I grew to like and in some cases absolutely worship some of these bands...The fact of the matter is I wasn't ready to like them due to my narrow view of what "good music" should be- Now I'm not saying your "not ready" for this music - I would never presume such a thing - however I'm reading many things in these posts that remind me of myself years ago. Bottom line - None of it makes a shit of a difference- what makes good music good is far more complex than these things we're discussing(thank God!).....If it communicates - it's worthwhile.

-t
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: chrisj on January 06, 2007, 10:37:24 pm
Then I guess the challenge is spelled out.

Make these guys sound like awesome. Not 'correct': awesome.

Okeydokey Smile
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Nizzle on January 06, 2007, 10:40:24 pm
chrisj wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 03:37

Then I guess the challenge is spelled out.

Make these guys sound like awesome. Not 'correct': awesome.

Okeydokey Smile



I wonder if this is only one guy and NOT a band...kinda sounds that way to me, but I don't know squat.

-t
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: henchman on January 06, 2007, 10:58:25 pm
Nizzle wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 19:27




Any idea how many important records you would have wiped out of existence with the sort of hard line narrow mindedness expressed above?

Look - I get it - you don't like this music. Fine , Cool...End it there. You know - I remember listening to the Pixies "Surfer Rosa", the first Stooges record an the Velvet Underground for the first time and I Fricken Hated them.
-t


Again, I disagree. There's some great playing on all of those records. Perfect? Maybe not. But definitely great.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Tom C on January 07, 2007, 07:29:39 am
I'm listening to the song for the first couple of times now
and I think it's the perfect song for what J.Hall wants us see to
learn: the differences between the technical aspects of a song
and the vibe of it.
Throwing some plugs at it and comping the live out of it is
something everyone can do (heck, even I can do that on a good day).

But finding out what the song is all about and support the vibe
of that (especially without any feedback from the artist) is the
hard part and something we'll all benefit from in the long run.

The fact that the song has started this controversial discussion
shows that it's a perfect learning example for that.

Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 07, 2007, 08:38:39 am
Hello,

Well, i haven't said i didn't like this song and Indie rock. Moreover my mix is using Indie mixing approaches, which in my oppinion still need to be developed among engeneers...

What makes Indie rock different from just Rock in my oppinion is a DELAY Layer on guitars and more ambient mixes with Reverb. Also Cymbals have special treatment and usually have reverb and delay also.

What makes Indie Rock musically different is a:
  1) Drums Playing non straight patterns: for example "I. I. I"
  2) Live feeling in play.
  3) Playing inner melodies (guitar arpegios) which rytmically comping with piano and with drums.
  4) Harmony vocabulary is much broad then in Rock music.
     for example 4 note chords come into play, so all theory
     about rootless voicing, tritone substitution, taken from
     Jazz music comes into the play now.
NEW: All this means what Indie musicians should be quite skilled, of couse if they want to produce something interesting.

I don't feel arranging of this song was following this.
It is more easy to drop some garbage on track (like we have at the end) then trying comping rytmical elements.

Is a Live playing synonym for Sloppy playing?
I don't think.

My drums just swing aroud, thats i don't like.
My guitar makes much mess in Delay layer, because if you apply delay to something plaed very loosely, then this will take very much attention.

I'm still wont edit anything, because editing is boring process:)))

Is this track Indie rock?
Well i don't know: It can be Indie rock or Plain Rock or just piece of garbage, this all is depending on Engeneer in this case...
What engeneer cannot do, is to make it PERFECT indie rock.

What i like in songs with few tracks what they are more challenging because every track should sound perfect.
What i don't like:
With few tracks we don't have arranging choise and cannot select Arranging functions(Foundation, PAD, Rytm, Solo) among the tracks... Moreover in this case we are lucking well defined functions in song arrangement.


Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Tom C on January 07, 2007, 09:35:20 am
Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 14:38

Hello,

Moreover my mix is using Indie mixing approaches, which in my oppinion still need to be developed among engeneers...




A mix is a mix is a mix.

Why should I mix an album from an independent band any different?
Remember Indie isn't a style (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_rock for details).


Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Nizzle on January 07, 2007, 09:51:30 am
Tom C wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 14:35

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 14:38

Hello,

Moreover my mix is using Indie mixing approaches, which in my oppinion still need to be developed among engeneers...




A mix is a mix is a mix.

Why should I mix an album from an independent band any different?
Remember Indie isn't a style (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_rock for details).






What he said....The last thing we need are rules that dictate how one mixes a certain style of music.

-t
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scottoliphant on January 07, 2007, 10:52:22 am
Quote:

What makes Indie Rock musically different is a:
1) Drums Playing non straight patterns: for example "I. I. I"
2) Live feeling in play.
3) Playing inner melodies (guitar arpegios) which rytmically comping with piano and with drums.
I don't feel arranging of this song was following this.
It is more easy to drop some garbage on track (like we have at the end) then trying comping rytmical elements.


the fact that most music now doesn't sound like "live feeling in play" says something. furthermore, not really sure any artists sit down and try to write an "indie" song using the above list. unless you are some washed up songwriter trying to get the new kids on the block to sound "indie". kind of funny
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: henchman on January 07, 2007, 01:21:57 pm
scottoliphant wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 07:52



Furthermore, not really sure any artists sit down and try to write an "indie" song using the above list.


Maybe not. But when it coems to recording, I myself have dealt with bands who will do things so they sound more "Indie".
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: rankus on January 07, 2007, 01:55:32 pm
Nizzle wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 19:40



I wonder if this is only one guy and NOT a band...kinda sounds that way to me, but I don't know squat.

-t


I'm thinking this may be a live off the floor one shot deal... There's vocal leakage in the drums...

At first I thought: These guys can't play too great, but what a great song... so it don't matter..

Regarding editing: I was "hired" to do the mixing not editing... If they wanted it edited I would have called and asked, and if they did I would have charged extra for that...
(Hate editing, I'm oldskool)
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: gatino on January 07, 2007, 11:56:00 pm
there's digital distortion (static noise?) in the original "vox" file.

i'll finish the mix and send it as is since there is nothing one can do about it. kind of disappointing. Sad

i can't imagine this is supposed to be part of the challenge.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: iCombs on January 08, 2007, 12:36:16 am
gatino wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 22:56

there's digital distortion (static noise?) in the original "vox" file.

i'll finish the mix and send it as is since there is nothing one can do about it. kind of disappointing. Sad

i can't imagine this is supposed to be part of the challenge.



Hey man, I've touched WAY worse.  This is a pretty limited challence, all things considered.  I remember one band brought in tracks to me so we could finish overdubs and vocals and mix everything. Their previous engineer was a recording school dink (no offense to anyone who has gone to a recording school, so long as you aren't a dink) who really did not do a very good job, and what's more, foisted some of his mixes on me in the tracks he sent...i.e., he printed all his effects to the individual tracks even though I specifically asked for raw tracks.  He had the most horrid gates on the snare and kick.  It took a fair amount of work, but I managed to make something of it, but it was one of those situations where it was like, man, what else can I really do?  I just did what I could and did the best I could with what I had...it turned out okay, but if I would have gotten what I asked for, it would have been a shitload better.  

This project is at least well delivered and well recorded.  It seems like the song and performances are up for debate, but at least the engineering is well taken care of.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: chrisj on January 08, 2007, 01:36:47 am
I'm actually a Pixies nut so I understood the crazy distorted stuff immediately. Hope I did it justice. I went absolutely nuts. Maybe it's glorious. I can't wait for upload day- and I did NOT limit the 2-buss, I have a hellbroth of saturation, mix compression and slew limiting on there instead Wink

I hope J likes it. Feel like I wasted my J slot on the piano/vox one Wink not that it was wasted with what I learned...
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 08, 2007, 05:21:29 am
I've edited my message, now you have 4-th, i would call "advisory" rule. Laughing

i'm looking forward to hear all mixes, and comment:)

By the way i've read your referenced Wikipedia:)))))))))), and "although the term is often used to reference the sound of specific bands and the bands they have influenced" i think i just used it in this way to reference Coldplay.

I think it is just early phase of Indie style, so it will have some time to stabilize, and i hope what my rules will remain, or i will be dissapointed in Rock music, this will be not a music anymore but a "protest" like it was with Black Metal for example, there music is the least important factor.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: gatino on January 08, 2007, 06:00:53 am
iCombs wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 23:36


Hey man, I've touched WAY worse.  


i'm sure. it's just everyhing i did brought it out more.

i'd like to know what others did esp. considering the lead track had the noise.

i liked all the other intentional noise. Smile
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: j.hall on January 08, 2007, 03:47:37 pm
WOW.  this is great.  we've got an IMP that's stirring the pot before we have even heard a single mix.

BTW.  bad playing is not exclussive to the under ground rock scene.  in today's market, bad playing is running far to rampant around the entire industry at ALL levels.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: garret on January 08, 2007, 03:53:38 pm
gatino wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 06:00


i'd like to know what others did esp. considering the lead track had the noise.



I'll have to take another listen.  I thought I heard a crackle at one point while mixing, but then I couldn't find the prob and thought it was just my system flaking for a bit.

I will say that the vocal was the easiest thing for me to mix in this track... no major editing, pitch problems, etc...   if there is some distortion, and I can hear it in the final mix, I might run the vox through some simulated tape saturation... I find that can soften out harsh clippy edges, and make it sound a bit more musical/intentional.

Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: j.hall on January 08, 2007, 04:07:35 pm
it is what it is, i just rolled with it.

compressed the crap out of it, EQ'd to taste and de-essed it.....DONE
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scott volthause on January 08, 2007, 04:19:18 pm
I found the drums fairly lifeless. It took a fair amount of thinking and experimenting to actually get some groove going. NO editing though.

The song definitely had some great attributes though, overall nothing I found offensive.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: garret on January 08, 2007, 05:05:25 pm
scott volthause wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 16:19

I found the drums fairly lifeless. It took a fair amount of thinking and experimenting to actually get some groove going. NO editing though.



Yep, that was my immediate impression from the first faders up listen... "ugh, please tell me the drummer changes up that pattern.  dang, he doesn't.  Okay so what about set 2... same deal.  Dang #2."

The way the drums are recorded is okay, and the timing isn't too bad, but it's the drum arrangement that bugs me...  my fix was/is to build a more inventive arrangement by subtractive editing, and a few tempo-sync'd delays.  I did very little timing correction, but I did take a heavy knife to the drum tracks.

I'm not sure about the distinction some are making between editing and not editing.  When I mix a tune, I very rarely use any track start to finish...

Then again, I don't do any for-pay client work right now, so I'm more willing to disregard the artists intent and create what I think makes the tune work... in a real situation, I might need to talk things through first to avoid hard feelings.

-G
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: gatino on January 08, 2007, 07:21:34 pm
garretg wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 14:53


I will say that the vocal was the easiest thing for me to mix in this track... no major editing, pitch problems, etc...  



now that's interesting. i really like this guy's voice and i think the performance is very good.  but, i didn't use "chorus vox 2" due to intonation and had no choice but to edit (melodyne) the other two to make them work.

btw, good song too.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: ScotcH on January 08, 2007, 11:16:00 pm
Wow ... I'm really anxious to hear these mixes ... it seems everyone did a helluvalot more than I did to the track.  To me, the simple almost drum machine like back beat worked very well, especially with the bass tracks.  The vocals were also dead easy for me, though I did notice a few crackles that were fixed (just automation though).  I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to totally edit an artist's part (like rearrangine this drums) ... that just seems "wrong" somehow.  If the song needs that much "fixing", perhaps then song is not really done and ready for mixing?
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: chrisj on January 09, 2007, 12:08:28 am
I did the same as you Arek- I made the drums into a big crushing sound and left them alone. Didn't even worry about the timing irregularities, just tried to make things ride the wave. Sort of Pixieslike this idea of a 'wave', like the band is flailing about riding this big surge of music and you notice things based on how they balance on front of that.

I did some automation (more like track editing- this time I just stuck fades and things in on the raw tracks) but not ever to fix, just to do things. The grating noise, I had it go ZAPPP! once to start off, and then faded it steadily up under the chorus to around the pain threshold Very Happy

I did a crazy number of plugins but apart from the Logic flanger and Spitfish they were all my modular ones so it's not quite like multi-effects territory. I'm eager to hear if people are digging it, it was my wet dream of what plugins I'd want and how I'd want them to sound.

REALLY looking forward to Tuesday. So we upload by the end of Tuesday?
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: dconstruction on January 09, 2007, 01:49:54 am
Well, it's Tuesday, and my mix is up.  I didn't think I'd be able to participate, but I found a few hours tonight and dove in, mangling audio along the way.

In case you missed the previous post in which this song appeared, I recorded this one (and IMP7).

The band is Pleasant Grove, and the song called Luzern.  This was recorded on a Monday evening, I think, for a benefit CD just released here in Dallas.  We had one evening.  Marcus, the singer/songwriter came in still undecided on which song we'd be recording that night.  He ran through a few on acoustic, made some lyric changes, and settled on this one.

First, we recorded a scratch vox and guitar.  This first take is what we kept.  For those wondering whether Marcus was drunk, why yes, he was.  We both were.  And it was also the first take.  But quickly the guitar became a secondary element, and the performance did capture, uh, something.

We then did a first take on vocals.  Again, this is what you hear.  Marcus asked for a really close, lip-smacking tone in his headphones.  I have no outboard compressors, so I put a smashing Blockfish comp across the input and recorded to disc.  The harmonies on the last chorus are there only because Marcus gets bored and sang something different when we were stacking voices.  I tried to keep him in line, but I also wasn't too worried.  Panned L/C/R, the three voices were already sounding good.  Lawson L47FET through an OSA MP1-C.  I didn't hear any digital distortion on the track.  Lots of sibilance.  Maybe that's what's being heard?  Dunno.  The performance is great: I love it when Marcus runs out of breath.  Why would we replace that?

The bassist Tony finally showed up.  He didn't know the song.  So we ran through it a few times.  During the run-throughs, we settled on my suggestion of the high-E pedal tone chorus part.  Tracked it direct through an OSA MP1-L3.  What you got was a quick comp of two takes.  And then the bassist went home.

The drummer never showed up.  Oddly enough, a drummer friend of mine was hanging out.  We threw him on the kit after realizing Marcus was hopeless with all his big tom fills and nonsense.  My friend is a big "jam band" drummer and brought an interesting slant to the tune.  But after about two hours of takes, and a lot of wrestling with the parts, we said goodnight to the drummer friend, thanked him for his time, and then erased the takes.  Marcus was back on kit and I told him to play only kick, hat and snare.  We got the simple beat you have here.  Then we doubled it.  Threw them up hard L/R and Marcus loved it.  Snare = 57s.  Kick beater = MD421, reso = RE20.  OH = Lawson L47.

Then Marcus toddled over to the Wurly and I threw up a 421 in front one of the tiny built-in speakers.  After finding the part, we tracked it.  Next.

Marcus was worried it wasn't vibing enough.  He asked for a synth patch, but wasn't happy with anything we were getting.  He went out to smoke and I hooked up the Rhodes to my Z Vex Fuzz Factory and then into a Peavey Classic 50 mic'd with another 421, I think.  Instant destruction.  I showed him the interaction between the knobs on the pedal and sat him down.  This is another first take.

Then the "Chop" part which is my tele played through a POD in the control room.  We threw a hard, chopping tremolo on it in Cubase and ran.

Then I did a very ugly doubling of the bass, again with the tele through the POD.  Another first take, as it was getting late and we were out of beer.  I was drunk and though I'd heard the song a bajilion times, I realized I didn't really know how to play it.  Whatever.  It was meant as a very small part (though comes through pretty forward in my mix.  Go figure).

So, was this "Indie"?  I don't know.  It was fun, fast and we came out with a product we were very happy with.  In that it was done for zero dollars, I'd say it was pretty Indie.  In that the song is amazingly potent and reaching, I'd say it's pretty Indie, too.

In my mix, I didn't edit anything.  Didn't pitch anything.  No grids.  My delays aren't even tempo-synched.  It's a mess - and I love it.  I just tried to "vibe" this as much as possible, taking heed of J. Hall's original advice.  I like what I've done, and the exercise definitely got me listening more carefully.

Thanks to everyone who participates.  Can't wait to hear the results!

Thanks,

Lindsay Graham
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: chrisj on January 09, 2007, 03:20:25 am
OK, I'm up! Very quick downloads too- WOW, there's a lot of different approaches. And I thought mine wuz loud Wink well, file me under 'most crankable' then. And 'obvious bass lover' Smile I did say I wanted things to ride a wave, obviously that's gotta be bass, right?

Great fun, can't wait to hear the rest.

Turn mine UP, folks Wink
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: judah on January 09, 2007, 03:25:14 am
Hi all,
I gave it a try last night. Unfortunately I've been out for a few days and discovered IMP9 just yesterday morning. I'm still retouching my control room (soffit mounted the mains a few days ago) and was looking to mix something to hear how it all translate in the outside world.
I'm sorry to say that the song did nothing to me, especially the drums. Don't know why (well, I know...) but of all the 4 kick drum tracks I used just one. I understand the slacker feeling of it but it's really not my cup of tea at all.
Anyway, I rolled the track, put some comp and EQ here and there, a tad of reverb and balanced everything. That's it. Nothing fancy. Heard a couple MP3 of other guys, some interesting ideas throwed around.  Cool
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: henchman on January 09, 2007, 04:17:58 am
dconstruction wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 22:49


Snare = 57s.  Kick beater = MD421, reso = RE20.  OH = Lawson L47.





I figured the snare was a 57.
I really had to crank the top end, as there was no top at all, really.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scottoliphant on January 09, 2007, 07:44:26 am
you all were up late =) mix is up
checking them out
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scottoliphant on January 09, 2007, 07:55:47 am
nice job Lindsay, regardless of what the other folks might say. It was right up my alley, and i liked the way it was engineered. music is still about having fun eh? you guys sounded like you had fun making this track, kudos. I just used an l47 recently and loved it (kick beater), this cements it for me, gonna have to grab one of those. well done
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Vladislavs Korehovs on January 09, 2007, 08:16:53 am
I WANT DISCUSSION THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: dconstruction on January 09, 2007, 10:06:05 am
OT: Scott, definitely try out the Lawson.  One, it's not that expensive (I mean, it is, but you know).  Two, it sounds fantastic.  And three, it's modular, so you can add the tube body next, or maybe the 251 head - whatever.  A big selling point for me as I'm trying to spend my money in the most flexible and expandable means possible.  One reason for the API 500-series chassis and pres, too.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Thomas Lester on January 09, 2007, 10:50:33 am
Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 08:16

I WANT DISCUSSION THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah...  is there going to be an official discussion thread?
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: garret on January 09, 2007, 11:42:14 am
dconstruction wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 01:49


Thanks to everyone who participates.  Can't wait to hear the results!

Lindsay Graham


Cool back story, Lindsay, and terrific results... I love it when something just comes together despite everything...

Thanks for letting us mangle your work...

I think the bass double makes the tune... I'm not sure if it was intentional, but the electrical buzz jumps out every backbeat... very cool...

The vocal is perfect, first take, damn.  Wish I could sing like that sober, much less a touch drunk.

Looking forward to hearing what you think of my mix...

Best,
-G
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: Cary Holding on January 09, 2007, 01:09:20 pm
Thomas Lester wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 10:50

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 08:16

I WANT DISCUSSION THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah...  is there going to be an official discussion thread?

Perhaps J forgot???  Plenty of chatter here that belongs in the discussion thread.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: rankus on January 09, 2007, 01:44:12 pm
Thomas Lester wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 07:50

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 08:16

I WANT DISCUSSION THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah...  is there going to be an official discussion thread?



Yes,  Wait for it... some of us are on the west coast you know (late risers) ... J usually waits until he figures everybody has upped their files... perhaps Wed. even ...  Until then listen to the files and make notes for later comment... I usually try to comment on all the mixes, so I make sure that all of them have been uploaded before I even start listening... Patience is difficult in these imps ... lOL
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: mattrussell on January 09, 2007, 02:04:13 pm
my ONLY issue with anything on this recording is the amount of compression on the vocal track.  was hard to wrangle. a deesser-fest.  otherwise, i think the song and performances are working perfectly together and THAT is what matters.  as tom said, if you brought in vinnie to play drums, it would SUCK.  i don't need dave grohl either.  the drums are just fine and none of that shit matters an ounce on a song like this.  the fact that it's super loose is the WHOLE fucking point of the song itself.  

the snobbery going on in this thread is making me want to puke.  thanks to those trying to fight some of it off.  

Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: ScotcH on January 09, 2007, 02:46:39 pm
Ok, now that everyone is done with this thing (I think?) how many think that the tambourine was just thrown in to see how many people would actually try to use it?  I just can't believe that this was part of the original tracks Smile  I contemplated copying just 1 hit and pasting it in places, but that seemed an awful like "adding a part" to me, so I didn't.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: henchman on January 09, 2007, 02:50:58 pm
ScotcH wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 11:46

Ok, now that everyone is done with this thing (I think?) how many think that the tambourine was just thrown in to see how many people would actually try to use it?  I just can't believe that this was part of the original tracks Smile  I contemplated copying just 1 hit and pasting it in places, but that seemed an awful like "adding a part" to me, so I didn't.




I was so glad that the tambourine was thrown in. It allowed me to copy and paste one of the hits in the chorus, according to the rules.
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: dconstruction on January 09, 2007, 02:54:18 pm
Here's the answer to the tambourine, a description of which I left out of my previous post.

We were about done with the track, and it was late.  I walked in from the tracking room and into the control room as Marcus was listening back.  While getting back to the desk, I stepped on a tambourine.  Marcus's eyes widened and he jumped up exclaiming, "that's it!".  Back in the tracking room, he had both fists full of every tambourine I own (four, I think) in front of the L47.  What you hear is what he tracked.

We loved it.

L
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: ScotcH on January 09, 2007, 03:04:42 pm
dconstruction wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 14:54

Here's the answer to the tambourine, a description of which I left out of my previous post.

We were about done with the track, and it was late.  I walked in from the tracking room and into the control room as Marcus was listening back.  While getting back to the desk, I stepped on a tambourine.  Marcus's eyes widened and he jumped up exclaiming, "that's it!".  Back in the tracking room, he had both fists full of every tambourine I own (four, I think) in front of the L47.  What you hear is what he tracked.

We loved it.

L


Lol ... awsome.  I guess there is a madness to every method Smile
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: chrisj on January 09, 2007, 04:55:53 pm
To me it sounded like sputters from the powerlines which were down on the wet streets. Not a rhythmic sound- color, EFX. I put reverb on, and killed the lows ruthlessly, until it sounded sparky enough for my taste Smile
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: scottoliphant on January 09, 2007, 06:08:28 pm
me too =) i reversed it and added a little space echo and verb
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: gatino on January 09, 2007, 06:11:04 pm
chrisj wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 15:55

To me it sounded like sputters from the powerlines which were down on the wet streets.


at least it made some sense to you. i left it out cuz i didn't get it. Lindsay said they were drinking all night long and that part came late. maybe i should have a few drinks and listen again. Smile

anyway, good song Lindsay, thx for letting us use it!
Title: Re: IMP9 begins.
Post by: redfro on January 09, 2007, 10:32:19 pm
This is the first time I've gotten to do one of these. They always seem to come when I've got a project that's gotta be out the door yesterday.

This time it was a project that's gotta be out tomorrow, so I gave it a couple of hours. Hope it works on it's own.

I didn't edit anything, and I used the tamb track. I loved it, too.

Look forward to listening to everyone's, and getting some critiques of mine.