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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => R/E/P Saloon => Topic started by: Sin x/x on November 21, 2006, 12:31:52 am

Title: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Sin x/x on November 21, 2006, 12:31:52 am
Sad day.

But after he's been treated, completely understandable.



Bye.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry is gone.
Post by: John Ivan on November 21, 2006, 01:18:43 am
Very sad news indeed. I read nearly every word he wrote.!!
Title: Re: Mr Lavry is gone.
Post by: wwittman on November 21, 2006, 02:26:14 am
I missed it... how was he "treated"?

Title: Re: Mr Lavry is gone.
Post by: malice on November 21, 2006, 03:07:06 am
wwittman wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 08:26

I missed it... how was he "treated"?





And by whom ?

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry is gone.
Post by: forgetmeknots on November 21, 2006, 07:18:17 am
 Shocked

Sad



Where did he go??
Title: Re: Mr Lavry is gone.
Post by: Tomas Danko on November 21, 2006, 08:13:34 am
You shouldn't write topics like this one, I almost blew a gasket and thought of the worst! Mr. Dan Lavry is one of those few select people that truly inspire and make this world a better place. I'm happy to know he's only gone from the forum, and nothing more serious than that...

Don't scare me like that!  Confused
Title: Re: Mr Lavry is gone.
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on November 21, 2006, 08:51:59 am
Really,

Not a good way to phrase this subject at all....

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Yannick Willox on November 21, 2006, 10:53:33 am
Yes, why ?

And how do we access the archives ? Where is the link besides the search utility ?

There's lots of info in there, I would hate to see al the identical questions being asked to Bruno Putzeys ...
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: bblackwood on November 21, 2006, 11:08:22 am
Dan's forum is in the guest moderators archive section, just below the main forums of R/E/P.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 21, 2006, 11:20:01 am
Do we get an explanation, Brad?  All I know is Dan emailed me to thank me for being a participant and said he had been given the boot.

Too bad, because I have little or no interest in the rest of the gear-crazy forums here.  The amount I have learned from Dan in his forum is amazing.

Chris
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: bblackwood on November 21, 2006, 11:40:31 am
Simply put, we felt it was time to move in a different direction.

Bruno Putzys has joined us and will be able to answer the same types of questions you had for Dan. Very few people in this world posses the mixed-signal knowledge that Dan has, but Bruno is one of them. Please drop by and give Bruno a warm welcome.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: PookyNMR on November 21, 2006, 11:42:09 am
I was also a frequent reader of Dan's forum.  Very sad to see the forum retired.  I learned amazing amounts from his efforts.

Thanks, Dan, for all the time you put into your forum!  It was very appreciated!
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 21, 2006, 12:02:43 pm
I have often wondered why the mods hated Dan so much here and insisted on trying to silence him.

For example, Fletcher has spent years bashing gear and gear companies he doesn't like (and, coincidentally, doesn't sell) and that is all well and good.  Heck, it is fine with me, he is entitled to his opinion.

Then Dan bashes Apogee because of their inability to defend their marketing claims, and drew the ire of the forum operators.  And the mods may have disagreed with his tone or methods, but the unaddressed questions to Apogee in those threads are still valid questions today as people waste thousands of dollars on clock boxes to "clean up their audio."

A year or so later, the topic is brought back to the forefront again, and BAM! he is kicked out.

I don't know about the rest of you, but the hypocrisy of the whole thing really bothers me.

It almost seems like a conspiracy to prevent Apogee from having to address the questionable claims made in their marketing materials.

Chris  
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: John Ivan on November 21, 2006, 12:21:51 pm
bblackwood wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 11:40

Simply put, we felt it was time to move in a different direction.

Bruno Putzys has joined us and will be able to answer the same types of questions you had for Dan. Very few people in this world posses the mixed-signal knowledge that Dan has, but Bruno is one of them. Please drop by and give Bruno a warm welcome.



I'm sure Bruno is a Smart and talented guy and He'll do a great job so, welcome to Him. Good Luck.....

Brad, am I to understand that Dan was ASKED to leave? Over this Business with this Max clown? and Fletcher, who I think is a great great cat but who I think over stepped? Is this because a certain digital Audio company is not happy? I'm not accusing, simply asking.

Ya know, I certainly don't have to worry about it much and the whole place could go away and my life would change very little, even though I love it around here sometimes. Looking back on the choices made, It puzzles me. Perhaps running one of these joints is harder than I think.

Dan Lavry is a man who loves the truth. People like him are harder and harder to find and it wont be long and they'll all be gone for real. Read what he has to say about Engineering. Not only as it relates to "how to do this or that" but, as in, " What does being an engineer mean. It's a way of thinking about the world that fewer and fewer people grasp.

I will miss having him here big time.

Ivan....................
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: bblackwood on November 21, 2006, 12:49:43 pm
R/E/P simply made the decision to go in a different direction.

And no, this is not a reaction to the Apogee thread, there are other circumstances that made us decide to go in a different direction. For those interested, Dan has his own forum at the Lavry website where he continues to share his experience.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Lucas van der Mee on November 21, 2006, 01:38:31 pm
CRM0992 said
“Then Dan bashes Apogee because of their inability to defend their marketing claims, and drew the ire of the forum operators. And the mods may have disagreed with his tone or methods, but the unaddressed questions to Apogee in those threads are still valid questions today as people waste thousands of dollars on clock boxes to "clean up their audio.”

Chris,

There is no inability to defend our marketing claims. The problem you may have had in getting our point of view was because we weren’t allowed to fully defend or explain ourselves in Dan’s forum. Dan had no problem deleting our posts and other’s who supported our opinion, when he did not like the contents.

If you’ll go through the thread again, you’ll see that Dan claims statements we never made, that Dan distorts Max’ and my words, whether intentionally or not and most of all continually keeps repeating the same questions instead of  going into detail into what we really say.

Mr Lavry did not act like an unbiased moderator, rather, like he had an agenda. He was not mediating, presiding or acting like he should. He used a public forum to attack a competitor and a former employer, while not allowing the competitor to respond freely. Hence we decided to not take part in any of his discussions anymore and limit our responses to putting out fires when required.


Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 21, 2006, 01:50:24 pm
Lucas van der Mee wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 19:38


Mr Lavry did not act like a moderator, he had an agenda, he was not mediating, presiding or acting like a chairman. He used a public forum to attack a competitor and a former employer, but not allowing the competitor to speak freely. Hence we decided to not take part in any of his discussions anymore and limit our responses to putting out fires when required.


Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics



Whatever I think of Mr Lavry is irrelevant but:  

This is called: "kicking a man when he is already down" in my book.

Maybe you should have participated in the discussions instead of doing this.

Not too classy, imho...

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Lucas van der Mee on November 21, 2006, 01:58:16 pm
Quote:

Whatever I think of Mr Lavry is irrelevant but:  

This is called: "kicking a man when he is already down" in my book.

Maybe you should have participated in the discussions instead of doing this.

Not too classy, imho...

malice


My intention is not to "kick" Dan when he's down, I am just explaining our position to Chris, who still seemed to have some issues with what happened and what was said.

The reason we stopped participating I already explained in the above post.

Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 21, 2006, 02:27:31 pm
I hear you Lucas, but i'm not convinced.

REP chose a moderator with a strong opinion. He is also a competitor to your company. Some of his option (like limiting his converters to 96k for instance )  happens to be an argument to his marketing and designing plans.


This is a public forum. I don't recall Dan having edited one of your posts or erasing your comments. I don't recall him banning you from his place, so I guess you could have defend yourself without fearing being muzled.

He was not hidding his aggenda, as Brad is not hidding his crusade against the "mastering mafia" as Fletcher is not hidding his bias toward the gear manufacturers he doesn't pimp, as Steve Albini doesn't hide his dislike of majors.

bottom line is : we all have aggendas.

I don't know why Dan has been kiked out, or even if he chose to leave, but I see your post count and your last explanation to why you were not posting and how you find Dan to be a poor moderator.

So far i'm not convinced, and to say the least, a bit disapointed by your recent contribution to this forum.

But maybe I'm biased.

Are you slowly getting my point ?

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: rankus on November 21, 2006, 02:35:23 pm


I will miss Dan a lot!
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: John Ivan on November 21, 2006, 02:40:33 pm
Lucas van der Mee wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 13:38

CRM0992 said
“Then Dan bashes Apogee because of their inability to defend their marketing claims, and drew the ire of the forum operators. And the mods may have disagreed with his tone or methods, but the unaddressed questions to Apogee in those threads are still valid questions today as people waste thousands of dollars on clock boxes to "clean up their audio.”

Chris,

There is no inability to defend our marketing claims. The problem you may have had in getting our point of view was because we weren’t allowed to fully defend or explain ourselves in Dan’s forum. Dan had no problem deleting our posts and other’s who supported our opinion, when he did not like the contents.

If you’ll go through the thread again, you’ll see that Dan claims statements we never made, that Dan distorts Max’ and my words, whether intentionally or not and most of all continually keeps repeating the same questions instead of  going into detail into what we really say.

Mr Lavry did not act like an unbiased moderator, rather, like he had an agenda. He was not mediating, presiding or acting like he should. He used a public forum to attack a competitor and a former employer, while not allowing the competitor to respond freely. Hence we decided to not take part in any of his discussions anymore and limit our responses to putting out fires when required.


Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics




Then I misunderstood the the whole thing. I thought you were invited to discuss the issue in full detail. I also thought the reason he asked the same question's over and over again was because he never got and answer. But it's water under the bridge now. Hopefully, the new Forum will be informative and I'm sure Bruno will do a great job.

In the end, I think we can all agree that sometimes large companies, in an effort to move product sometimes stretch the limits of sound science and engineering in their marketing. I believe that to some degree Apogee has done this but they are not alone by any stretch.

I have nothing against Apogee at all and would still consider buying their products but, I am very disappointed in the fact that the conversation was discontinued. I don't doubt that Mr. Lavry was slightly over the top at times but hey, this is a brilliant Engineer. I would not expect him to be diplomat of the year.

I just think these battles are informative and while they seem ugly at times, if allowed to continue, over time, more can be learned.

My 2 cents.

Ivan................
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: George_ on November 21, 2006, 03:46:21 pm
just as a sidenote..

While I can't and know nothing about it, I have met Lucas van der Mee on the Musikmesse at Frankfurt last year. He was very nice talking to me (remember your gearslutz-pen;)) and was very informative on the apogee ensemble (and the problems they had with it).

sad that Dan is gone. Hi Bruno Cool
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 21, 2006, 04:01:14 pm
Well, I can't comment on what Dan deleted or did not because if he delteed things obviously i did not see them.

I also have no problems with the Apogee guys, I am sure they are nice fellows, but they do sometimes make claims in forums that are simply not supported by any kind of science, i.e. the Big Ben clocking one converter improving the sound, which appeals to the "we know what we hear" crowd.

I will miss Dan's forum as it was a continuing source of education for me and I hope it finds a new home.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: maxdimario on November 21, 2006, 06:33:14 pm
A friend who has been in the recording business for decades and has engineering and math degree once commented that 'just because you can build good converters it does not mean you are god'

I have to agree that there was a little bit of an attitude in mr Lavry's approach.. and he did say some things which were contradictory and self serving, in a way.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: wwittman on November 21, 2006, 06:45:46 pm
Personally I can see the advantage in not having a moderator who is representative of a PARTICULAR brand of product or service.

It seems obvious to me that if the guy from Neumann runs the mic forum, he's at least much more LIKELY to have problems with unfavourable opinions about Neumann or competitive posts from other manufacturers.
(just as example)


Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: John Ivan on November 21, 2006, 09:59:44 pm
maxdimario wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 18:33

A friend who has been in the recording business for decades and has engineering and math degree once commented that 'just because you can build good converters it does not mean you are god'

I have to agree that there was a little bit of an attitude in mr Lavry's approach.. and he did say some things which were contradictory and self serving, in a way.



Which you can/do and will get from every MOD here in one way or another. There's a guy selling gear, a Guy who gets big bucks for re working mic's, a bunch of studio owners, and so on. No news there at all. I just think some people didn't like him. Those people were in a position to make him go away {or they agreed they would part way's}..

There really is this deal where folks believe in the Circles and Arrows on the cables. People believe all kinds of shit that isn't true at all about gear. Thanks to Dan, a few less people believe in this bull shit and I think that's a good thing.

Read the first couple posts that Max guy posted in the big thread. I would have told him to never come back ever. I thought Mr. Lavry was light on him...

Oh well,

Ivan........................
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 22, 2006, 02:25:20 am
Lucas van der Mee wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 13:38

CRM0992 said
“Then Dan bashes Apogee because of their inability to defend their marketing claims, and drew the ire of the forum operators. And the mods may have disagreed with his tone or methods, but the unaddressed questions to Apogee in those threads are still valid questions today as people waste thousands of dollars on clock boxes to "clean up their audio.”

Chris,

There is no inability to defend our marketing claims. The problem you may have had in getting our point of view was because we weren’t allowed to fully defend or explain ourselves in Dan’s forum. Dan had no problem deleting our posts and other’s who supported our opinion, when he did not like the contents.

If you’ll go through the thread again, you’ll see that Dan claims statements we never made, that Dan distorts Max’ and my words, whether intentionally or not and most of all continually keeps repeating the same questions instead of  going into detail into what we really say.

Mr Lavry did not act like an unbiased moderator, rather, like he had an agenda. He was not mediating, presiding or acting like he should. He used a public forum to attack a competitor and a former employer, while not allowing the competitor to respond freely. Hence we decided to not take part in any of his discussions anymore and limit our responses to putting out fires when required.


Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics



Oh stop it Lucas.  Max PM'd me personally and claimed that Big Ben makes systems sound better because listeners say so.  He would not answer the question about added jitter at the converter chip using Big Ben (or anything else).  All he said is that "certain kinds of jitter sound better, even in higher amounts".  That is not a technical response to the question posed.

Somehow you were allowed to sneak a last post into Dan's forum.

  http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/0/14324/200/931 /#msg_14324

Can anyone explain why Apogee has this privelege and no one else (probably not even Dan) does?  For example, I was not able to reply even to threads not marked "locked" in that forum.

WTF is going on here?

This whole thing stinks.

And anyways, your response indicates that increased clock jitter can somehow result in better sound and you are basing your marketing claims on that.  Although, in your marketing, you are not pointing that out, instead choosing to pump up the subjective opionions of your better-known customers.

The second part of questions re: BB can be summarized as:

"Can an external box reduce jitter in an attached device without a feedback loop telling the external clock what needs to be corrected?"

There is still a question as to whether your claims that "special jitter" with greater magnitude can improve audio performance.  Even so, if the cabling and cable receiver/PLL is adding jitter, HOW CAN YOUR DEVICE KNOW ABOUT THIS AND MAKE CORRECTIONS?  Doesn't this make sense to ask?  Am I crazy?  PLL's are much more jittery than a decent crystal clock.  What is Big Ben going to do about that?  Does anyone else feel like this should be answered and not just smokescreened over and over again?

It is misleading to your customers to claim that "snake oil" is the reason why using your product will give them better sound.  A reasonable technical explanation for performance differences IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to provide if you wish to treat your clients fairly.

Chris

PS - Dan claimed many times he did not delete any of your posts, Lucas, so your statement to that effect is also misleading.  Unless Dan lied outright, but I recall that it was agreed only a couple of Max's posts were removed (and Nika's).
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 22, 2006, 06:49:12 am
crm0922 wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 08:25


Can anyone explain why Apogee has this privelege and no one else (probably not even Dan) does?  For example, I was not able to reply even to threads not marked "locked" in that forum.




I agree. This is most peculiar. Can we have a clear answer to this question ?

I noticed that the remainly opened (and famous)  thread "proper word clock implementation" was closed right after Lucas from Apogee posted a final answer when it was already an archive. Then it was locked.

What the fuck ?

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Revolution on November 22, 2006, 07:26:35 am
To be quite honest the only real looser here is Apogee.

While I will still contribute to the forum (with much greater scepticism)I can now only consider the "Big Ben" in the same league of many other audio rip-off's.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.But im glad the scam was exposed.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: CCC on November 22, 2006, 07:44:55 am
Revolution wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 07:26

To be quite honest the only real looser here is Apogee.



And to add to that, I'm sure I don't know anyone who has ever chosen Apogee over Lavry gear. I know I'd prefer the latter.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Fletcher on November 22, 2006, 08:37:57 am
John Ivan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 12:21

Brad, am I to understand that Dan was ASKED to leave? Over this Business with this Max clown? and Fletcher, who I think is a great great cat but who I think over stepped? Is this because a certain digital Audio company is not happy? I'm not accusing, simply asking.


Yes, you are accusing.  You're not even being subtle about it.  Dan was ASKED to leave because he and "the President" of Lavry Engineering became abusive with the management of the website, they had enough of the Lavry's bullshit and fired the guy.

There is no Oliver Stone like agenda here.

I was not part of the decision process... but when it was run past me [as decisions of this nature are] I rubber stamped it in a heartbeat as I too was sick and fucking tired of his/their bullshit.

I have 10 moderators with whom I have to work... which doesn't count Brad and Bruno.  Brad is an administrator.  Brad and I talk about once a week to discuss what has been going on, what we can do better, what we should keep an eye on, blah, blah, blah.  Bruno is Brad's guy... I have never spoken to him either verbally nor by email.  Eventually I will, but at the moment we have yet to meet.  The other 10 can range from "can you take a look at this and tell me what you think" to ruining my day by ripping management a new asshole because they haven't been paid in what they consider a timely manner.  Neither here nor there.

But I have to say... for the amount of traffic Lavry's forum drove the pain in the ass far outweighed the benefits from my perspective.  To that end, I explained to my boss that unless they were going to come up with a significant raise for me they weren't paying me enough to take Dan "+1"s bullshit and either [my boss] could deal with Dan or I was out of here.  I don't need the money bad enough to warrant the time suck that was "backstage Lavry".

Now... as for the cowtow to the advertiser or the large purple company from Santa Monica... Apogee does not advertise, nor shall they be permitted to advertise for the remainder of the year.  After the end of this year we will review whether or not their advertising may or may not be admissible.  When the nonsense started Apogee was not an advertiser... and even though Mercenary Audio and Apogee Electronics have been working on a "co-op" campaign of ads, they were not permitted on R/E/P for exactly the reason outlined, an intimation of impropriety.

To whit we have our next contestant on "As the Hard Drive Turns"

malice wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 14:27

He was not hidding his aggenda, as Brad is not hidding his crusade against the "mastering mafia" as Fletcher is not hidding his bias toward the gear manufacturers he doesn't pimp, as Steve Albini doesn't hide his dislike of majors.


Fletcher works at Mercenary Audio.  As of January 1, 2006 he no longer held the "center office".  That office belongs to Jay Fitz.  Fletcher has a desk in the "Redrum" [the 'marketing' department].  That office is shared with Samara Krugman, M-A's director of marketing and public relations.

I spend the lion's share of my time in a little room in the back of the building just off the warehouse.  That room is called "The Methods and Applications Laboratory".  You will hear more about it as days go on as I spend my time in that room developing content for the website that will be going up sometime in the spring of '07.

The main thrust of that room is for me to work on product development with different manufacturers [can you say "Mercenary Edition"... I thought you could] as well as auditioning and devising application notes for new product to be carried by M-A.  Get it... "Methods and Applications Laboratory"... where I devise "application notes" for the stuff Mercenary sells.

If you think my "bias" towards manufacturer's that Mercenary doesn't sell isn't because their gear isn't up to my standards, or because their gear isn't something special [like I have 3 things in my rack that do 98.7% of what this new thing does which in my book makes the new thing irrelevant] then you need to do some serious fucking soul searching.

One of the reasons I got this gig was because I'm usually pretty good at separating church and state.  As I am the arbitor [for the most part] of what M-A does and does not carry from the sonic/technical perspective [Jay Fitz deals with the political aspects... I have no fucking patience for that shit anymore], I would say that it is a pretty safe bet that the reason that M-A doesn't pimp their shit is because it don't measure up... but its cool if you want to read some kind of evil conspiracy theory into the fold... we are in the entertainment business, if that entertains you all I can say is "Mazel Tov"
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 22, 2006, 09:19:55 am
Fletcher wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 14:37


To whit we have our next contestant on "As the Hard Drive Turns"

malice wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 14:27

He was not hidding his aggenda, as Brad is not hidding his crusade against the "mastering mafia" as Fletcher is not hidding his bias toward the gear manufacturers he doesn't pimp, as Steve Albini doesn't hide his dislike of majors.


Fletcher works at Mercenary Audio.  As of January 1, 2006 he no longer held the "center office".  That office belongs to Jay Fitz.  Fletcher has a desk in the "Redrum" [the 'marketing' department].  That office is shared with Samara Krugman, M-A's director of marketing and public relations.

I spend the lion's share of my time in a little room in the back of the building just off the warehouse.  That room is called "The Methods and Applications Laboratory".  You will hear more about it as days go on as I spend my time in that room developing content for the website that will be going up sometime in the spring of '07.

The main thrust of that room is for me to work on product development with different manufacturers [can you say "Mercenary Edition"... I thought you could] as well as auditioning and devising application notes for new product to be carried by M-A.  Get it... "Methods and Applications Laboratory"... where I devise "application notes" for the stuff Mercenary sells.

If you think my "bias" towards manufacturer's that Mercenary doesn't sell isn't because their gear isn't up to my standards, or because their gear isn't something special [like I have 3 things in my rack that do 98.7% of what this new thing does which in my book makes the new thing irrelevant] then you need to do some serious fucking soul searching.

One of the reasons I got this gig was because I'm usually pretty good at separating church and state.  As I am the arbitor [for the most part] of what M-A does and does not carry from the sonic/technical perspective [Jay Fitz deals with the political aspects... I have no fucking patience for that shit anymore], I would say that it is a pretty safe bet that the reason that M-A doesn't pimp their shit is because it don't measure up... but its cool if you want to read some kind of evil conspiracy theory into the fold... we are in the entertainment business, if that entertains you all I can say is "Mazel Tov"




Ok, Fletcher was not paid enough for his gig at PSW, that does not surprise me (I was not paid much either). Apparently, he has barely the time to read posts, not necessarely the time to comprehend them. I will simplify in order to save his precious time.

1) I didn't like the way Lucas poped up after Dan left: it's personal, my vision, you may like or may not like it, it is not open to a huge debate, merely an opinion.

2) I illustrated my reponse to Lucas about people having aggendas. Fletcher might feel attacked, wich is somehow beyond me, but I was only making a point about everyone being biased (again, an opinion, nothing to write much about). I won't bust Fletcher's precious balls by quoting him endlessly about being "biased", but no one would contest reading from him quotes like "of course, I pimp them, so I'm biased".

Again, I don't feel there is a conflict of interest by moderating a forum and being related to manufacturers or being a manufacturer yourself. Geeeez !

3) I tried to respond in the archive, I couldn't. Lucas could and then the thread was locked. I don't give a fuck why. I don't give a rat's ass about this place being the last bastion of free speech. I couldn't care less about this.

And I wanna Fletcher  to read this slowly:

Don't aim at my throat before having a clue about what I'm talking about. I was not attacking you, so don't bust my balls.


comprende ?



malice (over and out about the subject)
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Fletcher on November 22, 2006, 10:38:09 am
I agree that having opinionated moderators isn't a problem... and the reason Lucas was allowed to post in that thread was so he could respond to Chris's query... call it equal time or whatever you like but that was the reason behind it.

Dan makes a fine product and has a passion for the science that is shared by few in our industry.  On a personal level I'm not so sure he understands the "music" aspect of the endeavor but he definitely understands the science as well as anyone involved with that level of digital audio.

I will reiterate that the sacking of Mr. Lavry was based purely on his inability, and the inability of the President of Lavry Engineering to work and play well with others.  Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

Peace.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 22, 2006, 10:43:39 am
Got your PM Fletcher,

Thanx for the explaination above as well. Makes more sense to me now.

Peace


malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: rankus on November 22, 2006, 02:09:05 pm


Move along folks there's nothing more to see here....
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: John Ivan on November 22, 2006, 04:21:14 pm
Thanks for being straight about this Fletcher. One thing I can take to the bank is that you don't bullshit people and I've always believed you care about quality and the usefulness of all this gear around us.This isn't ass kissing but if I were in a position to buy some shit, I'd buy it from you because I think your a straight shooter and I don't like Market-speech much. I've been reading you for a long long ass time.

My only bitch is how Max came walking in and what he ended up representing. That's a personal opinion and that's that. On the issue's relating to what goes on back stage, well, I can relate to that and you've made it clear. So, onward we go..

I really was asking, but it was littered with sarcasm.

I wont pretend your gig is always easy but, these manufacturers should know better than this one showed, this time around.

Peace,, Hope everyone has a great Holiday. Get outside if you can, it's about 50 D' here and the sun is out.

Ivan..................
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Revolution on November 22, 2006, 04:35:06 pm
No matter why or how Mr Lavry was sacked (or weather it was justified)to an outsider with now knowing of what has gone on behind the scenes I would have to say again Apogee have come out looking very bad over this.

This has obviously been handled quite badly. That is I guess how conspiracy theory's start after all.


Just an outsiders view from the other side of the globe.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 22, 2006, 04:41:03 pm
Fletcher wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 15:38

I agree that having opinionated moderators isn't a problem... and the reason Lucas was allowed to post in that thread was so he could respond to Chris's query... call it equal time or whatever you like but that was the reason behind it.

Dan makes a fine product and has a passion for the science that is shared by few in our industry.  On a personal level I'm not so sure he understands the "music" aspect of the endeavor but he definitely understands the science as well as anyone involved with that level of digital audio.

I will reiterate that the sacking of Mr. Lavry was based purely on his inability, and the inability of the President of Lavry Engineering to work and play well with others.  Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

Peace.


Render unto Caesar what is Casears.

How a mic-pre sounds is a "music" aspect. Whether a Big Ben reduces jitter of an single properly designed converter is science. And since the Big Ben is only a clock AFAIK it cannot positively affect the sound unless one prefers the sound of more jitter.

Apogee makes claims they simply cannot back up scientifically and people tend to accept them because they are Apogee. Dan had the guts to say that the Emperor had no clothes.

Too many folks here WAAAYYYY overrate their ears which as we all know can very from room to room, day to day, etc.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: danlavry on November 22, 2006, 05:36:14 pm
“Lavry Removed as PSW Moderator because of Church Magazine Editor’s politics:”

1)Church Magazine editor and ProSound Web owner Mark Herman did not want to stand up for the truth. Muffling the truth is a compromise that many publishers try very hard not to do. He gave into pressure from some of his moderators at ProSound Web to edit Lavry’s highly technical truths. Herman could not take control of those who wanted to muffle and delete facts from Lavry’s postings.

2)Behind the scenes “Junk Yard Dog” Fletcher from Mercenary Audio lobbied the moderators and convinced them with false statements. Fletcher had been standing on the fence trying to balance both Lavry and Apogee until Lavry fired Mercenary Audio for not complying with Lavry company policy. Mercenary Audio is no longer allowed to sell Lavry products.

3) Lavry was removed unceremoniously and disrespectfully by Herman . Lavry had fought for a year and a half to have a particular thread entitled “Proper Wordclock Implementation” reinstated. Some of Lavry’s technical statements ruffled feathers of Apogee Electronics and their Chief Salesman Max “Putznik “who could not respond technically to Apogee’s unjustified marketing claims  

4)As if PSWs loss of credibility was not already called into question Herman and Fletcher further discredited themselves by allowing the Apogee engineer to post an answer onto my  "locked thread" Proper Wordclock Implementation thread . I had asked for months for a response from Lucas but the timing of his post was cowardly. I equate it to hitting a man with his hands tied. The fact that I had not ever edited Lucas is well documented. Unless Fletcher deleted his acknowledment of this fact, one can find it in the thread.

5)For Fletcher ( I assume he also speaks for Herman who is hiding out) to dismiss and justify his actions by saying that  Lavry did not play nice with others a very low class dodge and should be an insult to thinking people.

6)One last punch was for Herman and Fletcher to change the total number of hits for that thread to 195 views and 220 replies . The total was number of views was 18072+ last time I noticed.

7)Dan Lavry will be answering questions from his company forum http://www.lavryenginering.com from now on.

Dan Lavry
http://www.lavryenginering.com
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 22, 2006, 08:57:01 pm
Though now we have both sides

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Fletcher on November 22, 2006, 09:12:04 pm
1) Lavry calls Fletcher & Herman shanda fur die goyim... to which Fletcher laughs... Lavry is ongepotchehket.  

2) Lavry says that Mercenary was fired when the TRUTH was that Lavry said "we only take Mastercard and Visa" to which Mercenary said "fershtinkiner, tsutcheppenish took our checks before? Vus mach da?"  

3) Shmendrick was removed uncermoniously because ceremony was unbefitting the occurance.  Who's the shtunk?  Who knows?  Who cares?

4) Lavry the svantz continues to make a tsimmes out of it continuing to call Fletcher a shanda to which Fletcher gets ver clempt [sarcasm].

5) It's a zetz to thinking people that you allow the messugina yenta to front your company.

6 & 7) [because I'm getting bored of this] Lavry can go fuck himself.

Mr. Lavry, please go mind your shop.  I agree with Mr. Herman [who FYI isn't the owner here, but he's still my boss as I used to be your boss until my boss sent you and your mishegos packing]... you need to be gone.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Logichead on November 22, 2006, 09:20:37 pm
Well, well, well.

Name calling now?

Sorry to say it, but this kind of thing clarifies why Dan was removed as moderator.

Fletcher's comment about the "music" aspect of gear was right on - I agree that Dan is able to argue the technical details in very fine detail, but I have seen him time and time again ignore the "music", getting caught up in the technical reason something is better, when in application it doesn't sound better, or as good.

I got into one of these kerfuffals with Dan awhile back - my point was that I heard a sonic improvement when I added a Big Ben to my rig. Do I know or care what the jitter measurements were? It sounded better! (I was impressed at how much material Dan could put out in a short amount of time - I saw no evidence of cutting and pasting from previous postings.)

Dan will be better off posting at a forum he controls.

Hopefully PSW will survive the loss.

Best...H


Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: CCC on November 22, 2006, 10:28:26 pm
Wow.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 22, 2006, 10:36:31 pm
Logichead wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 03:20


Fletcher's comment about the "music" aspect of gear was right on - I agree that Dan is able to argue the technical details in very fine detail, but I have seen him time and time again ignore the "music", getting caught up in the technical reason something is better, when in application it doesn't sound better, or as good.





otoh, he makes killer converters. And clocking lesser ones with them results in significant improvement.

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Fibes on November 22, 2006, 10:47:18 pm
<delivered in a hip hop style flow>

I like internal clocks and I cannot lie...







Go eat some turkey and be thankful this world contains people who spit in the face of convention and not sea otters riding ostriches into battle.

On second thought, not.

Fuck you Fibes.






Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Revolution on November 22, 2006, 10:51:57 pm
I guess Mr Lavry is the latest victim along with Mr Oram and Mr Neumann to fall fowl of the Pro Audio Maffia.

And on and on it goes.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: jfrigo on November 22, 2006, 11:12:03 pm
Lucas van der Mee wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 13:38

...Dan had no problem deleting our posts and other's who supported our opinion, when he did not like the contents.


Brad's comment about the log seems at odds:
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/194045/934/#msg _194045
But I suppose it matters not one way or the other. What's done is done, and I think all have had their say by now.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: sui-city on November 23, 2006, 01:46:13 am
Logichead wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 04:20



I got into one of these kerfuffals with Dan awhile back - my point was that I heard a sonic improvement when I added a Big Ben to my rig. Do I know or care what the jitter measurements were? It sounded better!




Whether it sounds better or not, was not the issue. It was how Apgoee justifies the improvement in its marketing, with no ACTUAL technical data to prove their claims.

I have heard a Big Ben improve the quality of audio myself, but nobody has explained why without their being some VERY liberal marketing-interpretations of science.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 23, 2006, 02:34:17 am
Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 02:12

1) Lavry calls Fletcher & Herman shanda fur die goyim... to which Fletcher laughs... Lavry is ongepotchehket.  

2) Lavry says that Mercenary was fired when the TRUTH was that Lavry said "we only take Mastercard and Visa" to which Mercenary said "fershtinkiner, tsutcheppenish took our checks before? Vus mach da?"  

3) Shmendrick was removed uncermoniously because ceremony was unbefitting the occurance.  Who's the shtunk?  Who knows?  Who cares?

4) Lavry the svantz continues to make a tsimmes out of it continuing to call Fletcher a shanda to which Fletcher gets ver clempt [sarcasm].

5) It's a zetz to thinking people that you allow the messugina yenta to front your company.

6 & 7) [because I'm getting bored of this] Lavry can go fuck himself.

Mr. Lavry, please go mind your shop.  I agree with Mr. Herman [who FYI isn't the owner here, but he's still my boss as I used to be your boss until my boss sent you and your mishegos packing]... you need to be gone.


Fletcher your stereotypical use of Yiddish is about as funny as Michael Richard's tiraded and can only lead to one conclusion; You are a potz.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Fletcher on November 23, 2006, 03:18:30 am
malice wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 22:36

otoh, he makes killer converters. And clocking lesser ones with them results in significant improvement.


Which ironically goes against the original premise that "internal clocking is significantly superior to external clocking".

Revolution wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 22:51

I guess Mr Lavry is the latest victim along with Mr Oram and Mr Neumann to fall fowl of the Pro Audio Maffia.


Last I heard Mr. Neumann is dead, his former company is owned by some very nice [though in some ways misguided but nice none the less] people in a small town in the former GDR part of Germany.  If you're talking about the jerks in Connecticut who run the subsidiary of Sennheiser then I reckon you're kinda on target.  Sorry, but life is to short to suffer fools with gladly.  

Oh, and there is generally only 1x"f" in Mafia... unless you know something I don't know [besides, there is no Mafia... I could introduce you to a couple of guys I know who are connected to LCN and they'll swear up and down there is no such thing as the "mafia"].

sui-city wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 01:46


I have heard a Big Ben improve the quality of audio myself, but nobody has explained why without their being some VERY liberal marketing-interpretations of science.


With all due respect, I know I've made quite a few records in my lifetime, during that time I have recorded a whole lotta music but never any specifications.  As a layman I would reckon that the reason you found the Big Ben improve the quality of the audio is because it puts some distortion [jitter] in a region you find musically pleasing... which at the end of the day is all you [or at least all I] can ask from any tool involved in the music making process.  BTW, I think they both, Lavry as well as Apogee are buried by the iZ Radar so what the hell do I know except how to hit some buttons and record a record.

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 02:34


Fletcher your stereotypical use of Yiddish is about as funny as Michael Richard's tiraded and can only lead to one conclusion; You are a potz.


I always spelled it "putz" but that's cool.  I'm not really fluent in Yiddish... learned a little bit from my father when I was growing up... almost enough so I could hang in Walter Yetnikoff's world during the early 80's when it was still CBS but not enough to hold a conversation in real time.

I saw Michael Richard's shtick a dozen or so years ago [pre-Seinfeld] at the Laugh Factory on Sunset... he wasn't funny then either.  I have no idea how he has ever landed a comedic gig... but if I really understood the ways of Hollywood I'd be rich now.

All I can say about your post is "he started it".
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 23, 2006, 04:14:45 am
Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 09:18

malice wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 22:36

otoh, he makes killer converters. And clocking lesser ones with them results in significant improvement.


Which ironically goes against the original premise that "internal clocking is significantly superior to external clocking".



The thing is : I won't spend the day reading about a full technical report over the subject. This is all geek talk to me.

Now if you start a technical forum, I guess it is only fair to discuss about technical stuff.

I'm just being the devil advocate here, but it seemed to me that the core of this big clusterfuck is that you have one one side a guy that argue on a 100% technical level disclaiming any improvement that science cannot backup, and on the other hand someone that says : "but it works" and that does not backup what it says with numbers.

But in the end, within a 100% geek forum, I guess you should be able to backup your claims with numbers, epecially if you're a designer.

Now if you ask me, I'm more the guy hanging at "whatever works".

Give me a Big Ben, give me a Lavry, give me whatever you have, I'll pick whatever sounds best to my ears without even opening the owner manual.

Where are those owner manuals anyway, damn it.

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Yannick Willox on November 23, 2006, 06:36:18 am
New here is an interesting idea:

who dares to put this question about external ref clocks in the new forum ?
Twisted Evil
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 23, 2006, 06:49:16 am
Yannick Willox wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 12:36

New here is an interesting idea:

who dares to put this question about external ref clocks in the new forum ?
Twisted Evil


Yannick, you know the trouble maker I am.

Don't tempt me  Twisted Evil

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Fletcher on November 23, 2006, 09:12:18 am
malice wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 04:14

But in the end, within a 100% geek forum, I guess you should be able to backup your claims with numbers, epecially if you're a designer.


I am sure there is palpable and identifyable science to support the claim but I dare say it will involve psycho acoustic phenomenon which is probably over the head of most folk here... but psycho acoustic phenomenon is also what is behind things like "phase shift" we find musically pleasing in transformers, it also encompasses frequency response characteristics as well as headroom characteristics.

The "science" is a means to an end, that end being the musical sounding presentation of recorded product.

Yes, it is was a "geek" forum, but it is a "geek" forum in the middle of a set of recording forums.  Dave Hecht's tech forum is also a "geek" forum as is Klaus Heyne's mic lab, etc.  The part that is missing is that somewhere between "jitter" specifications and why people like NOS "Mullard" tubes better than Sovtec tubes is the music... which is what we built this place to serve... the music.

I think it would be a great thing for this question to be raised in Bruno's forum... and I would welcome Mr. Lavry to contribute to the thread as it will be moderated by a man of science with absolutely no alligence nor agenda.

Peace.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 23, 2006, 09:15:21 am
Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 15:12

malice wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 04:14

But in the end, within a 100% geek forum, I guess you should be able to backup your claims with numbers, epecially if you're a designer.


I am sure there is palpable and identifyable science to support the claim but I dare say it will involve psycho acoustic phenomenon which is probably over the head of most folk here... but psycho acoustic phenomenon is also what is behind things like "phase shift" we find musically pleasing in transformers, it also encompasses frequency response characteristics as well as headroom characteristics.

The "science" is a means to an end, that end being the musical sounding presentation of recorded product.

Yes, it is was a "geek" forum, but it is a "geek" forum in the middle of a set of recording forums.  Dave Hecht's tech forum is also a "geek" forum as is Klaus Heyne's mic lab, etc.  The part that is missing is that somewhere between "jitter" specifications and why people like NOS "Mullard" tubes better than Sovtec tubes is the music... which is what we built this place to serve... the music.

I think it would be a great thing for this question to be raised in Bruno's forum... and I would welcome Mr. Lavry to contribute to the thread as it will be moderated by a man of science with absolutely no alligence nor agenda.

Peace.




Fair enough Fletcher, I think it is a great response and proposal.

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: sui-city on November 23, 2006, 11:14:56 am
Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 16:12



I think it would be a great thing for this question to be raised in Bruno's forum... and I would welcome Mr. Lavry to contribute to the thread as it will be moderated by a man of science with absolutely no alligence nor agenda.

Peace.



Last i checked it was spelled "allegiance"
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: sui-city on November 23, 2006, 11:26:17 am
Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 10:18

malice wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 22:36

otoh, he makes killer converters. And clocking lesser ones with them results in significant improvement.


Which ironically goes against the original premise that "internal clocking is significantly superior to external clocking".


Dan never argued that internal clocks COULDN'T be improved by an external clock. He argued that if an internal clock was improved by an external clock, then the inernal clock was one of poor design.

Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 10:18

sui-city wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 01:46


I have heard a Big Ben improve the quality of audio myself, but nobody has explained why without their being some VERY liberal marketing-interpretations of science.


With all due respect, I know I've made quite a few records in my lifetime, during that time I have recorded a whole lotta music but never any specifications.  As a layman I would reckon that the reason you found the Big Ben improve the quality of the audio is because it puts some distortion [jitter] in a region you find musically pleasing... which at the end of the day is all you [or at least all I] can ask from any tool involved in the music making process.  BTW, I think they both, Lavry as well as Apogee are buried by the iZ Radar so what the hell do I know except how to hit some buttons and record a record.


I know you have made records, and Fletcher , with all due respect to you, that doesn't mean you know it all.

I greatly appreciate many of your insights that you choose to share with all of us, but sometimes your ego gets squarely in the way too.

This has turned into a pissing contest, and it is a great disappointment.

Sometimes i found Dan's arguments to be poorly worded, but the jist of his arguments were always spot on. He questioned the validity of the MARKETING STATEMENTS being made. For a long period of time Apogee were all about the ACCURACY of the Big Ben.

If the sonic improvements were due to some carefully placed "distortion/jitter", then they should have been open about it.


Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 23, 2006, 11:35:23 am
Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 08:18

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 02:34


Fletcher your stereotypical use of Yiddish is about as funny as Michael Richard's tiraded and can only lead to one conclusion; You are a potz.


I always spelled it "putz" but that's cool.  I'm not really fluent in Yiddish... learned a little bit from my father when I was growing up... almost enough so I could hang in Walter Yetnikoff's world during the early 80's when it was still CBS but not enough to hold a conversation in real time.

I saw Michael Richard's shtick a dozen or so years ago [pre-Seinfeld] at the Laugh Factory on Sunset... he wasn't funny then either.  I have no idea how he has ever landed a comedic gig... but if I really understood the ways of Hollywood I'd be rich now.

All I can say about your post is "he started it".


Putz is the Anglicized version which has come to mean loser, schmo, sucker, etc.

Potz literally means penis or prick and that is what I meant to call you for your tasteless exercise.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 23, 2006, 11:46:02 am
So let me sum it up here.

For a lot of folks here when hooking up a Big Ben, which is only a clock (and if I am wrong someone please correct me because then my argument falls apart) to a single decent audio interface i.e. a RME  Fireface which adds more jitter to the converrsion, which unlike analog distorion no one has ever claimed is aesthetically pleasing, somehow results in a more pleasing sound because of some psychoacoustical properties.

And they know this because that is what they hear and they "trust their ears".

I see. Let's all meet at midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil and mix up some potions and spin some dead cats around so we can REALLY make some good sounding stuff.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 23, 2006, 11:54:31 am
Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 17:46


For a lot of folks here when hooking up a Big Ben, which is only a clock (and if I am wrong someone please correct me because then my argument falls apart) to a single decent audio interface i.e. a RME  Fireface which adds more jitter to the converrsion, which unlike analog distorion no one has ever claimed is aesthetically pleasing,



That is because you never heard vintage jitter.

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: kraster on November 23, 2006, 01:13:14 pm
I am shocked that this could happen.

My first post on the Lavry forum was an issue dealing with higher sample rates.

I read on a certain website that claimed that the ultra high frequency components in live music combine in air to produce beat tones in our hearing and that these beat tones would be an integral to the sound as a whole. By using higher sample rates these beat tones could be recreated to reproduce the sound stagein its entirety.

The truth is that the beat tones won't be recreated unless we can actually hear the original frequencies that interact to make the beat frequencies.  So it's a fallacious argument capturing ultra high frequencies will have a benefit in this respect.

The original claim was made as part of Apogee's technical documents on their website. To their credit, they removed the article promptly but only after the matter was cleared up on Dan Lavry's forum.

My point is that the forum served its purpose in that case ie. a scientific argument overruled the marketing claim. Simple as that.

We all operate in a business where we must aware of snakeoil and audio voodoo marketing forces that surround us. If we all bought into there shtik we'd be using 64-bit 768k digital and have little celtic crystals under our monitors. Dan's forum was a direct counterbalance to that. To claim that the fatal flaw in Dan's thinking is that he doesn't consider music to be important, the ear is not a valid tool or that subjective opinion trumps all is missing the point. His forum was designed to use a scientific quantification of the audio process and only call on the other factors when it was necessary to demonstrate a scientific point.

Just the facts please.

I think in a world where warm, fuzzy, crunchy are used to describe sound and $1500 (plus tax) interconnects are the order of the day that a little clarification is necessary.

One cannot use the idea of Dan's position as a manufacturer of audio gear and claim a conflict of interest disallows or invalidates him from commenting on it.If that were the case then every forum in the REP would have to close down on the same hidden agenda argument. I, as a reader, am very aware that the individuals running certain forums have business interests that could concievably bias their opinion on matters they discuss and I always weigh that fact against the arguments put forward by these people.

I think that censorship is bad in any form because it implies that the reader does not have the faculties to draw their own conclusions. And conversely the action of censorship is something that people will draw their own conclusions from too. To be frank, locking the word clock thread on Dan's forum after one last comment from Apogee stinks to high heaven. I have drawn my own conclusion from that act of censorship. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be anatagonistic it's just how I see it.

Obviously there are limits under the law and decency to what can and cannot be said and I also think that the name-calling and insults that abound around here reflects badly on the people who use them as tactics and lower the tone of the whole place.

For the record, I own both Apogee and Lavry equipment and I am very happy with both.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 23, 2006, 02:15:55 pm
Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 09:12

malice wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 04:14

But in the end, within a 100% geek forum, I guess you should be able to backup your claims with numbers, epecially if you're a designer.


I am sure there is palpable and identifyable science to support the claim but I dare say it will involve psycho acoustic phenomenon which is probably over the head of most folk here... but psycho acoustic phenomenon is also what is behind things like "phase shift" we find musically pleasing in transformers, it also encompasses frequency response characteristics as well as headroom characteristics.


The audible qualities of transformers is easily explained in technical terms.

The bullshit of adding external clock boxes for improved audio performance cannot be explained in technical terms because it is bullshit.

Of course you should be able to "back up claims with numbers".  How can one design anything without technical goals that are to be met?  No one, not even Apogee, sets design goals of "AWESOME SOUND" and just starts banging stuff together until it sounds "AWESOME" to famous LA producers.

I am quite certain that a technical explanation for the purported improvements from using Big Ben would not have been over the head of Mr. Lavry at the very least...and others around here (myself included) have degrees in technical fields as well and are able to understand quite a bit, in fact.

Chris
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: forgetmeknots on November 23, 2006, 02:34:10 pm
well it certainly has become quite clear as to what this place really is.  

it's kinda too bad really, considering the internet already has a gearslutz.com

but, as the amount of advertisements grew, and the forum became what it is today, it really has become QUITE CLEAR as to whats going on.

Draw your own conclusions, as these are my own opinions, but thanks for this new version of Mix Magazine online.

I guess when I need to know something, I'll be looking for someplace with a little more factual content that can be backed by technical data (like I pretty much do anyways, instead of soul searching this place)
and I'll reserve this place for when I need to know how many pres I should use and on what, in my room that none of you know, on an act that none of you have heard.  


Signing off,

Justin
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 23, 2006, 02:35:08 pm
The original questions


I. QUESTION: WHICH SOLUTION PROVIDES LESS JITTER AT THE AD LOCATION?

1. A REASONABLE FIXED CRYSTAL
2. BIG BEN DRIVING A CLOCK INTO A CHASSIS EQUIPPED WITH A PLL VIA A 10 FOOT CABLE?

II. QUESTION: CAN ONE EVER CANCEL OR REDUCE A RANDOM NOISE AT ONE END OF A CABLE WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT KIND OF JITTER ACTIVITY IS OCCURRING AT THE OTHER END?
(can one cancel, remove or reduce the receiver and PLL noise, some of it unknown, some totally random, by driving it with a clean low jitter clock? Driving it with any clock?)



Lucas said in Dan's locked forum


The answers to those questions we have given several times before in this thread. But to make it easy for you and not have to search for it I’ll say it again:

Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else. However, we do say a number of things that are beyond this question.
1. Big Ben is an excellent solution if you need a master clock. It is low jitter and offers a lot of features the competition does not have.
2. If you need to clock to a jittery source, for instance a SPDIF output of a computer or a commercial cd player, having the Big Ben re-clock the data first, will very often improve the sonic and MEASURABLE quality of the converter used. The amount of improvement is all dependent of the quality of the PLL circuit of said converter. In other words, the better the PLL, the least improvement will be noted.
3. For this one I will be quoting Max, because he put it so well:

“Yes, Jitter is a deficiency that causes a certain type of distortion to the signal. However, the ear, being a non-linear device with respect to frequency, will not hear all jitter the same. It is very easy to create a scenario whereby two signals can be induced with jitter, one of which has significantly more jitter than the other, but sounds audibly more ACCURATE to the ear. The distortion due to jitter on the one with more jitter can be relegated to frequencies that are entirely out of the human audible spectrum in various ways, whereas the other can have far less jitter, but at frequencies that are much more audibly apparent.

It is certainly possible to design an external clock in such a way that the increased amount of jitter that results will have less of an audible impact than the internal clock by itself. For this reason one cannot claim that an internal clock will always be more accurate - merely that it will theoretically always have less jitter. There is a significant difference between the two, and the testimony we have been seeing on the market and in our own testing with respect to Big Ben over the last few years certainly attests to this.”

I would like to add to this: There are numerous examples in technology, where we find that an actual reduction in performance of one parameter can lead to a perceived and sometimes actual improvement, in others. A good example in audio is dither, (noise shaped especially). By adding dither we actually reduce the dynamic range, yet we improve the perceived noise floor by masking the annoying noise of rounding errors.

My last word on this topic is, people do perceive more than science can explain. Our senses are intrinsically subjective, however the more experienced we become, the more we train our perception, the more OBJECTIVE we can become and obviously, your mileage may vary.

Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics



Just so everyone knows why Lucas being allowed to have the last word is horseshit....just look at this response...it doesn't even come close to answering the questions asked. AGAIN!!!  This is fucking unbelievable.  It reads like more marketing drivel.

Let me help you get started.  The first question is this:

Quote:


I. QUESTION: WHICH SOLUTION PROVIDES LESS JITTER AT THE AD LOCATION?

1. A REASONABLE FIXED CRYSTAL
2. BIG BEN DRIVING A CLOCK INTO A CHASSIS EQUIPPED WITH A PLL VIA A 10 FOOT CABLE?



It has TWO possible answers.  #1 or #2.  The answer "Big Ben is a good master clock" is not one of the choices.

I have been insisting on getting an answer to question II, and the question has been systematically dodged EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Quote:


II. QUESTION: CAN ONE EVER CANCEL OR REDUCE A RANDOM NOISE AT ONE END OF A CABLE WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT KIND OF JITTER ACTIVITY IS OCCURRING AT THE OTHER END?
(can one cancel, remove or reduce the receiver and PLL noise, some of it unknown, some totally random, by driving it with a clean low jitter clock? Driving it with any clock?)



We still need an answer as to how an external clock, even with "magic jitter" that sounds "better", would avoid the added jitter of a cable link, line driver/receiver, internal converter PLL, etc.  Even with the "magic jitter", the PLL induced jitter alone will result in a far more jittery clock input at the converter chip.  And a good chunk of that jitter is all induced POST BIG BEN!!!  How can this be guaranteed to sound better?

How can your device plan for and remove the effects of cabling and a PLL driving a converter chip from the outside?  How can it know what to correct without a feedback loop?

You still have not answered the question.

Chris

PS - just for the record, I don't own any Apogee or Lavry gear, so my obnoxiousness on this topic is not related to personal "gear pride".
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: kraster on November 23, 2006, 02:45:49 pm
Well Chris,

Unless Apogee come out from behind the smokescreen of "21st century technology" and "Top secret" research and explain how this fete of defying the laws of physics and thermodynamics is acheived the answer to the question

WHICH SOLUTION PROVIDES LESS JITTER AT THE AD LOCATION?

1. A REASONABLE FIXED CRYSTAL
2. BIG BEN DRIVING A CLOCK INTO A CHASSIS EQUIPPED WITH A PLL VIA A 10 FOOT CABLE?

is, I may venture, no 1.

What do I win?
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: kraster on November 23, 2006, 03:11:51 pm
The thing is that if Apogee claim that their Big Ben clocking process is either applying some kind of Dither noise shaping or some other proprietary method I can accept that it may sound "better" in some kind of way. And would even audition one on that premise. After all, the ultimate aim is good sound.

But the continuing ambiguity and evasiveness on the simple questions asked just comes across as suspicious. Leading us all to draw our own conclusions.

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Tritony on November 23, 2006, 03:37:56 pm
Hello, Hello. I cannot believe this. Are you guys just ranting and not reading?

The answer to your question is in Lucas' reply. It is here you dummies!:

"Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else".

He said it, it is in print! Now get over it.

Sheesh....
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Tritony on November 23, 2006, 03:44:39 pm
The thing is that if Apogee claim that their Big Ben clocking process is either applying some kind of Dither noise shaping or some other proprietary method I can accept that it may sound "better" in some kind of way. And would even audition one on that premise. After all, the ultimate aim is good sound.

But the continuing ambiguity and evasiveness on the simple questions asked just comes across as suspicious. Leading us all to draw our own conclusions.


So you think Cola Cola has the duty to release their secret recipe, becasue you like to drink it?

Does a waiter have to tell you how the wine was made in order for you to like it?

You guys are so insecure...
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: forgetmeknots on November 23, 2006, 04:16:07 pm
And who are you Mr. Tritony??

After all with a post count of 2, and your two posts appearing in this very topic, some might be led to believe that you're an apogee insider preaching to the choir, or some PSW goon, brought in to calm down the herd.

Nonetheless, you have no history here, and your credibility in my opinion, holds no water here.  

But thanks for your comments nonetheless.

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Tritony on November 23, 2006, 04:31:56 pm
And who are you Mr. Tritony??

Oops, sorry I did not know you had to introduce yourself before you post the first time.

Well I am Tony, I study music in Los Angeles and I own an Mbox...I know, I know, not an Apogee or a Lavry. Maybe one day....

But I do notice, lurking on this site for a few months now, how sloppy people are in reading each other's messages.

And ok...admitted, the "wine" and "coke" lines I borrowed from someone else, but I think they are still good.

So who are you?
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: rnicklaus on November 23, 2006, 04:50:31 pm
When your first post includes "you dummies" and " now get over it. Sheesh" - someone just may indeed ask who you are.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 23, 2006, 04:50:44 pm
Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 20:37

Hello, Hello. I cannot believe this. Are you guys just ranting and not reading?

The answer to your question is in Lucas' reply. It is here you dummies!:

"Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else".

He said it, it is in print! Now get over it.

Sheesh....


They have said other things and implied other things at various times in various forums.

I would not take that statement at face value if I were you. It is disingenuous at best.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 23, 2006, 04:54:24 pm
Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 20:44

The thing is that if Apogee claim that their Big Ben clocking process is either applying some kind of Dither noise shaping or some other proprietary method I can accept that it may sound "better" in some kind of way. And would even audition one on that premise. After all, the ultimate aim is good sound.

But the continuing ambiguity and evasiveness on the simple questions asked just comes across as suspicious. Leading us all to draw our own conclusions.


So you think Cola Cola has the duty to release their secret recipe, becasue you like to drink it?

Does a waiter have to tell you how the wine was made in order for you to like it?

You guys are so insecure...



The analogy is wrong but I will take it and run with it.

No but if they are putting something in the wine that the consumer does not reasonably expect to be in a bottle of wine then they have an obligation to inform the consumer.

So if the Big Ben is doing anything other than clocking it should be in the product description.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Tritony on November 23, 2006, 05:16:14 pm
The analogy is wrong but I will take it and run with it

For what I know, wine makers use all kinds of tricks to make wine taste better, nowadays. They have methods to make lower quality grapes better by treating them in special ways. That is why almost every below ten dollar bottle tastes great. Every vineyard has their own secret recipe, so I think the analogy still flies.

Sorry about the "dummies", I thought this was the insult section of PSW Wink

Peace.
Tony
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: bblackwood on November 23, 2006, 05:21:23 pm
I'm not going to debate anyone's opinion as to whether Lavry's or Apogee's technical points are more worthy, but...

as Fletcher stated above - this is NOT about bowing to an advertiser, etc. Apogee has never been an advertiser in PSW and will not be for the foreseeable future.

As Dan himself admitted to deleting posts from Apogee personnel, we felt it best to give Apogee a chance to answer the questions in a manner they felt was fair without the fear of it being deleted. This is why they were given the chance to answer the questions after the forum was closed.

If you really want to question them about it, go to Bruno's forum and ask away. As long as we have a mod who won't delete answers (as we do now with Bruno), we have no problem with people taking manufacturers to task.

If this was about censorship, we simply wouldn't allow discussions concerning Apogee/Big Ben. This simply isn't the case.

Now can we drop the melodramatic nonsense?
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 23, 2006, 05:45:40 pm
Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 22:16

The analogy is wrong but I will take it and run with it

For what I know, wine makers use all kinds of tricks to make wine taste better, nowadays. They have methods to make lower quality grapes better by treating them in special ways. That is why almost every below ten dollar bottle tastes great. Every vineyard has their own secret recipe, so I think the analogy still flies.

Sorry about the "dummies", I thought this was the insult section of PSW Wink

Peace.
Tony


If  they are adding ingredients they have to list them as people have allergies etc. or they are lookong for lawsuits.

Analogy aside (you might want to spell check that word nest time)

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/bigben.php

Show me where it says on that page that it dithers, or does anything other than clock. If it does and they do not say so in the product literature they are IMHO wrong, period.

And if it doesn't it cannot be improving the sound of a single decent clock, which most are nowadays, unless one prefers the more blurry sound of more jitter because of speaker/ear deficiencies that it masks.

It's sort of like drinking the person you pick up in a bar at 2:00 am in low lighting beter looking. They are not good looking but under those conditions you think they are.

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: forgetmeknots on November 23, 2006, 05:51:52 pm
Quote:

So who are you?


My name is in my profile, but just for you, it's Justin.

I study music and recording every waking moment 7 days a week, it depends on where I'm working out of.
In my humble beginnings I've studied with engineers in a studio, and I've studied in an overpriced school.  Both were valid experiences in which I put more in then my fellow students, (or so I've been told) and I can bet the farm that I left with more too.

There's more to this gig than a monkey behind an MBOX.

But to be honest, the one thing I think that lacks in a lot of young engineers is a work ethic.  However, that might be a different thread for a different day, I'm outta time and gotta get back to mixing.

Smell ya later Tony and welcome to PSW, but watch your tone, as there are some truly amazing minds here, and if you piss them off for the rest of us, i'll find you.  Twisted Evil
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: bblackwood on November 23, 2006, 05:52:46 pm
Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 16:45

And if it doesn't it cannot be improving the sound of a single decent clock, which most are nowadays, unless one prefers the more blurry sound of more jitter because of speaker/ear deficiencies that it masks.

Pardon me, but who made you the final arbiter of what sounds 'good' or doesn't?

Last I checked, audio was quite subjective.

And no, I don't use any external clocking nor do I use anything Apogee.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 23, 2006, 06:15:58 pm
bblackwood wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 22:52

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 16:45

And if it doesn't it cannot be improving the sound of a single decent clock, which most are nowadays, unless one prefers the more blurry sound of more jitter because of speaker/ear deficiencies that it masks.

Pardon me, but who made you the final arbiter of what sounds 'good' or doesn't?

Last I checked, audio was quite subjective.

And no, I don't use any external clocking nor do I use anything Apogee.


What sounds good is subjective. What jitter does to sound is objective and I will say the hated word, sciencific.

This was Dan's point overall. I f you think it sounds better more jittery fine but don''t say something improves sound because it improves the jitter when it does the opposite. He merely tried to de-mystify this, which is I believe is part of the heading of someon'es forum here.

This is the audio equivalent of "creation science".
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: bblackwood on November 23, 2006, 06:41:18 pm
Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 17:15

What sounds good is subjective. What jitter does to sound is objective and I will say the hated word, sciencific.

Sure, as is the distortion that a Neve pre adds, yet many people prefer this in certain situations, regardless of measurements...

Quote:

This was Dan's point overall. I f you think it sounds better more jittery fine but don''t say something improves sound because it improves the jitter when it does the opposite. He merely tried to de-mystify this, which is I believe is part of the heading of someon'es forum here.

Nice sarcasm, let's keep it on point and not try to make weak pot-shots.

Define 'improves'.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: maxdimario on November 23, 2006, 08:45:19 pm
The problem with Dan L. is that he needs to prove all that he hears and feels...  through his PERSONAL knowledge..

actually that is the problem which every tech person brings into the music biz...

I think you'll find that the best scientists are actually very able observers of NATURAL fenomena.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 23, 2006, 10:17:16 pm
Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 15:37

Hello, Hello. I cannot believe this. Are you guys just ranting and not reading?

The answer to your question is in Lucas' reply. It is here you dummies!:

"Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else".

He said it, it is in print! Now get over it.

Sheesh....


All right, I am more interested in the answer to #2, not an "in most cases" answer.  That qualifier was in the original question (a reasonable crystal).  Lucas, can I safely assume your answer to the first question is #1 (the reasonable fixed crystal) ?

The answer to how an external box would know how to "improve" things down the line with no feedback still should be addressed.

Chris
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Revolution on November 24, 2006, 12:15:19 am
bblackwood wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 09:21



as Fletcher stated above - this is NOT about bowing to an advertiser, etc. Apogee has never been an advertiser in PSW and will not be for the foreseeable future.



This is really a large part of the issue here.

Fletcher sells Apogee products ,is dumped by Lavry so gets Lavry kicked off forum. Rolling Eyes

Apogee while not advertisers on the forum could bee seen as potential advertisers surely.They do seem to have a large advertising budget.

anyway.

I haven't bought a Pro Audio magazine for over 2 years now because of the obvious bias to sponsors.To be honest this situation has exposed or at least given the illusion of much
worse.

Apologies to Fletcher in advance if there are any spelling mistakes. He may make good his threat to get some of his heavy's from the LCN for a "Introduction".

Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 19:18


Oh, and there is generally only 1x"f" in Mafia... unless you know something I don't know [besides, there is no Mafia... I could introduce you to a couple of guys I know who are connected to LCN and they'll swear up and down there is no such thing as the "mafia"].




Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 24, 2006, 12:57:00 am
bblackwood wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 23:41

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 17:15

What sounds good is subjective. What jitter does to sound is objective and I will say the hated word, sciencific.

Sure, as is the distortion that a Neve pre adds, yet many people prefer this in certain situations, regardless of measurements...

Quote:

This was Dan's point overall. I f you think it sounds better more jittery fine but don''t say something improves sound because it improves the jitter when it does the opposite. He merely tried to de-mystify this, which is I believe is part of the heading of someon'es forum here.

Nice sarcasm, let's keep it on point and not try to make weak pot-shots.

Define 'improves'.


Oh come on, Brad, you are far too knowledgable to compare analog distorion which people have foiund aesthetically desirable for over 40 tears to digital jitter which no one has claimed is aesthetically  desirable that I am aware of. This argument is beneath you.

I give up.

Folks believe what you want to believe. As I said it is the musical equivalent of "creation science".
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: bblackwood on November 24, 2006, 08:18:14 am
Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 23:57

[Oh come on, Brad, you are far too knowledgable to compare analog distorion which people have foiund aesthetically desirable for over 40 tears to digital jitter which no one has claimed is aesthetically  desirable that I am aware of. This argument is beneath you.

No, it's not 'beneath me'.

Fact is, there are folks who prefer digital clipping over limiting (or even leaving the signal alone). That's a process which creates everything but pleasing harmonics yet some folks like it. IME, any time you change a signal it can be better or worse - it's not automatically worse, but more often than not it is. But this is entirely a subjective discussion.

The point isn't whether or not I think more or less jitter sounds better it's the fact that Apogee sells a product which claims to make stuff sound better, and Dan went on to discuss it in his own forum where he made the point over and over that subjective issues were not to be discussed.

While Apogee tried (and by many account here, failed) to discuss on a technical level what they were doing, the fact is it was a discussion that was based entirely on a subjective experience!

Are you going to tell (insert famous mastering engineer) "it's beneath you" because he claims to prefer some form of clocking? It's about the sound and we (Fletcher and I) admit we made a mistake by allowing Dan to disassociate his forum from reality - that we work in a business that is almost entirely subjective and to divorce the 'art and science' of design from how it actually sounds doesn't help much.

While I understand people's frustrations; that it appears impropriety abounds, that Apogee was allowed to duck and run, that Dan was kicked off due to Apogee's influence - none of this is true. So let me quickly (and finally) repost what we've said about this issues: the discussion to remove Dan started long ago, as he (and company) required more hand-holding and baby-sitting than the rest of the mods combine, by a long shot. Fletcher makes a little money here, I make nothing, so, and I don't mean for this to sound dismissive or callous - forgive us for not wanting to keep someone on who took constant 'supervision'. I tried to be nice in the way I worded it up until now, but Fletcher's description was far more accurate. Suffice to say that when someone asks me if I'm anti-Semitic because R/E/P's parent company puts out 'Church Sound Magazine', they've crossed the line.

That's one of many examples.

Now please, I prefer we move forward. If you wish to discuss Apogee products, feel free to post about them in Bruno's forum - he's as honest and knowledgeable as anyone. If we were caving to Apogee, we certainly wouldn't suggest that you start the same thread again (the people seem to be focused on, even though we've said time and again it had nothing to do with Dan's departure) in the new forum.

We feel this is an upgrade for R/E/P and hope you enjoy his forum.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: studiojimi on November 24, 2006, 08:59:37 am
Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 12:37

Hello, Hello. I cannot believe this. Are you guys just ranting and not reading?

The answer to your question is in Lucas' reply. It is here you dummies!:

"Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else".

He said it, it is in print! Now get over it.

Sheesh....



is "in most cases" good enough to be considered the answer?
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 24, 2006, 10:29:43 am
bblackwood wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 13:18

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 23:57

[Oh come on, Brad, you are far too knowledgable to compare analog distorion which people have foiund aesthetically desirable for over 40 tears to digital jitter which no one has claimed is aesthetically  desirable that I am aware of. This argument is beneath you.

No, it's not 'beneath me'.

Fact is, there are folks who prefer digital clipping over limiting (or even leaving the signal alone). That's a process which creates everything but pleasing harmonics yet some folks like it. IME, any time you change a signal it can be better or worse - it's not automatically worse, but more often than not it is. But this is entirely a subjective discussion.

The point isn't whether or not I think more or less jitter sounds better it's the fact that Apogee sells a product which claims to make stuff sound better, and Dan went on to discuss it in his own forum where he made the point over and over that subjective issues were not to be discussed.

While Apogee tried (and by many account here, failed) to discuss on a technical level what they were doing, the fact is it was a discussion that was based entirely on a subjective experience!

Are you going to tell (insert famous mastering engineer) "it's beneath you" because he claims to prefer some form of clocking? It's about the sound and we (Fletcher and I) admit we made a mistake by allowing Dan to disassociate his forum from reality - that we work in a business that is almost entirely subjective and to divorce the 'art and science' of design from how it actually sounds doesn't help much.

While I understand people's frustrations; that it appears impropriety abounds, that Apogee was allowed to duck and run, that Dan was kicked off due to Apogee's influence - none of this is true. So let me quickly (and finally) repost what we've said about this issues: the discussion to remove Dan started long ago, as he (and company) required more hand-holding and baby-sitting than the rest of the mods combine, by a long shot. Fletcher makes a little money here, I make nothing, so, and I don't mean for this to sound dismissive or callous - forgive us for not wanting to keep someone on who took constant 'supervision'. I tried to be nice in the way I worded it up until now, but Fletcher's description was far more accurate. Suffice to say that when someone asks me if I'm anti-Semitic because R/E/P's parent company puts out 'Church Sound Magazine', they've crossed the line.

That's one of many examples.

Now please, I prefer we move forward. If you wish to discuss Apogee products, feel free to post about them in Bruno's forum - he's as honest and knowledgeable as anyone. If we were caving to Apogee, we certainly wouldn't suggest that you start the same thread again (the people seem to be focused on, even though we've said time and again it had nothing to do with Dan's departure) in the new forum.

We feel this is an upgrade for R/E/P and hope you enjoy his forum.


Brad, I am not one of those who accused anyone of having commercial motives.  

As I said I am not willing to continue to argue this any further. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him boogaloo. I will end by saying that while much of the issue of what sounds good is subjective there are aspects of audio, particularly digital, that are objective and what I liked about Dan was that he always tried to delineate which was which and when the Apogee folk tried to blur that line IMHO he called them to task for it.

I like and respect Apogee as a company and I am sure some more of their products are in my future but I will not take their marketing claims at face value again.

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 24, 2006, 04:39:45 pm
I just had a long chat with Max at Apogee. We agreed on many things, disagreed on others. He was gracious and informative and I learned some things. Thank you Max.

I think some of the claims that I have taken exception have not been so much instigated by Apogee as by Big Ben zealots making extravagant claims that Apogee does not.

To the degree that I have blamed Apogee for this when it wasn't really emanating from them I retract. However, where he and I disagree is the lengths that I feel Apogee should go to dispel them.  

There we just had to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Mark Herman on November 24, 2006, 08:51:43 pm
As in many situations there are black and white viewpoints and many shades of gray depending on what angle one views the proceedings.  My viewpoint on this subject is from a website management perspective. I made the decision to close the forum.


Dan Lavry's forum was removed from the REP forum area because the chemistry with other team members and management was poor. This was not an overnight thing, it had been brewing for awhile. To make matters worse the president of Lavry Engineering became unnecessarily involved as well, which is in direct conflict with the interests of the REP forum.

In attempt to find a solution that might work to keep the  Dan Lavry forum going Mr. Lavry was offered the opportunity to have a completely new and separate tech forum area on PSW. And he was offered the choice to hand pick moderators for additional forums that would be complimentary to his in the same new forum area. In addition the offer was for him to make his own rule set for the forum area and to remain as the main moderator as long as he wanted. I offered to hire the man who created the original PSW forum software to split the Dan Lavry forum off so that it would remain intact if possible.

In addition he was offered a place in either the MARSH or SR forums if he wanted. But we both thought a separate new kind of forum area might be preferable.

All forum maintenance, setup and the extra-expensive forum split expenses would be paid by PSW.  We discussed coming up with a name and style that suited him for this new area.  

Considering the alternatives at hand this was a strong offer to give Mr. Lavry a continuing voice and for him to have the complete control he desired.

When I asked Mr. Lavry what he thought about the offer to have his own forum area he told me he would think about it – he was interested - but he was too busy to deal with it. I suggested that it might be a good idea to spend a few minutes with me – the management that ran the forum - to work out a solution to our problem and asked him to please call me back as soon as possible and discuss the issues because there was a deadline for action that I had set and it was approaching soon.


The offer was made, the reasons clearly spelled out and a deadline for action was called.

The deadline came and there was no response so I tried again 2 days later and hit a brick wall and a lot of looping talk.

By the way Dan was not talking to me at this time. The president of Lavry Engineering did all the talking on his behalf upon my return calls. So the person who is in charge of his manufacturing company was the one that spurned the PSW offers and stated many times that the entire issue was all about Apogee and lots of other nonsense. I heard an earful of how great the new Lavry products are and how much better they are than Apogee's and on and on. I had to repeatedly try to get the conversation back on track and off products and unfounded accusations. The president refused to consider any options except to remain on PSW under their stipulations and repeatedly stated that Fletcher was making tons of money off of all this and plenty of other things I’d rather not discuss.

I also offered Mr. Lavry a chance, if the forum was to close, to say a well deserved goodbye as he saw fit and to tell people where he would be posting for all those who wanted to continue following his posts and advice. And that offer is still in play. The offer to have another forum area was proposed again the other day and the results were threats from the president of Lavry Engineering.


FYI: I – nor anyone else at PSW has ever spoken to Apogee about advertising in the past few years and I have no relationship with them that affected my decision to move in a different direction with the forum in question.


I, like many others, think Dan has lots to offer and has contributed much, but in this case it was a situation where a change had to be made based on a moderator/management conflict. I tried to find a good solution that would work but was told Lavry Engineering wanted no further discussion. We had Dan Lavry moderating the forum - not Lavry Engineering. In the end it was Lavry Engineering  - a manufacturing company – arguing and telling REP/PSW exactly what to do and bad mouthing others.

Running the entire group of forums – there are now over 40 - involves many people and not everyone gets along all the time. Just like many other places in the world where there are people and egos involved, things do not always work out over time.

In this case a combination of people chemistry and conflicting manufacturing competition unfortunately evolved into a situation where something had to be done because it was going in a direction that was becoming unacceptable for the long term.

There is no conspiracy factor, no money issue, no secret forum, no religion, no technical disagreement, no commercial motive and no hidden agenda from PSW in regards to the individual forum closure. It just didn’t work out for the reasons I have spelled out.

Mark Herman
ProSoundWeb



Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 24, 2006, 10:00:02 pm
Hey Brad.  Objective science IS REALITY.  Our business of "how things sound" is subjective and meaningless to discuss in a forum without ABX tests.  The MARKETING is what makes the "reality of our business" as you see it.  How on earth are we supposed to have meaningful discussions based on hundreds of peoples' subjective opinions...oh yeah...that's what gearslutz is for...and why it is unreadable trash.

Just because someone somewhere likes digital clipping that does NOT mean it becomes a valid design goal for audio reproduction.

There is a huge audio snake-oil industry that sells people $10,000/ft. speaker cables and "quantum purifiers" and Dan's forum stood as a place to learn the technical reasons why that stuff is bullshit.

And now it is gone.

Chris

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Fibes on November 24, 2006, 11:55:50 pm
Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 11:46

I see. Let's all meet at midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil and mix up some potions and spin some dead cats around so we can REALLY make some good sounding stuff.


Now yer catching on.


Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: compasspnt on November 25, 2006, 01:16:35 am
Lavry make a great product.  I use one every day.

And there was indeed a lot of great information on the Forum.

But the whole thing is sad.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: George_ on November 25, 2006, 02:41:42 am
and the reaction from some guys around here is funny Very Happy  Very Happy

sad world.. too much ignorants. Rolling Eyes

keep up the good work Dan and Lucas.

cheers
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 25, 2006, 03:07:38 am
myNameIsGeorge wrote on Sat, 25 November 2006 08:41

and the reaction from some guys around here is funny Very Happy  Very Happy

sad world.. too much ignorants. Rolling Eyes





Glad you are here to raise the level Wink

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on November 25, 2006, 03:40:10 am
Mark Herman wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 18:51

As in many situations there are black and white viewpoints and many shades of gray depending on what angle one views the proceedings.  My viewpoint on this subject is from a website management perspective. I made the decision to close the forum.

....


There is no conspiracy factor, no money issue, no secret forum, no religion, no technical disagreement, no commercial motive and no hidden agenda from PSW in regards to the individual forum closure. It just didn?t work out for the reasons I have spelled out.

Mark Herman
ProSoundWeb




Thanks for taking the time out to check in on this issue Mark. I personally found it quite refreshing to visit Dan's subjective free green zone, where pretense and marketing hype was contraband. I applaud his vigorous enforcement of this rule, which was frustrating on occasion, but he ran a tight ship.

Obstinance (sp?) and genius go hand in hand.

Thanks to Mr. Lavry for being so generous with your time and knowledge. I shall continue to use your products daily and look forward to your web presence elsewhere in the future.

bab
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: George_ on November 25, 2006, 03:47:15 am
Quote:

Glad you are here to raise the level Wink

malice


thanx malice.. the best thing about my appearance is: I am absolutely jitter-free Very Happy

peace
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 25, 2006, 06:10:56 am
bigaudioblowhard wrote on Sat, 25 November 2006 09:40



Thanks to Mr. Lavry for being so generous with your time and knowledge. I shall continue to use your products daily and look forward to your web presence elsewhere in the future.

bab


oh,

his web presence is easy to find:

http://www.lavryengineering.com/lavry_forum/viewtopic.php?p= 1113#1113

And I think he's pissed ...

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 25, 2006, 11:26:46 am
bigaudioblowhard wrote on Sat, 25 November 2006 08:40

Mark Herman wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 18:51

As in many situations there are black and white viewpoints and many shades of gray depending on what angle one views the proceedings.  My viewpoint on this subject is from a website management perspective. I made the decision to close the forum.

....


There is no conspiracy factor, no money issue, no secret forum, no religion, no technical disagreement, no commercial motive and no hidden agenda from PSW in regards to the individual forum closure. It just didn?t work out for the reasons I have spelled out.

Mark Herman
ProSoundWeb




Thanks for taking the time out to check in on this issue Mark. I personally found it quite refreshing to visit Dan's subjective free green zone, where pretense and marketing hype was contraband. I applaud his vigorous enforcement of this rule, which was frustrating on occasion, but he ran a tight ship.

Obstinance (sp?) and genius go hand in hand.

Thanks to Mr. Lavry for being so generous with your time and knowledge. I shall continue to use your products daily and look forward to your web presence elsewhere in the future.

bab


Well said.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: danickstr on November 25, 2006, 04:55:57 pm
Dan Lavry is passionate about his work, and that can rub some meatheads the wrong way.  It's more that just a job to him, so he is bound to have issues with the "more is better" folks who will sell you a bunch of fancy golf clubs when all you really need to do is go and PRACTICE.  Good Luck to Dan and I am sure he will fight the good fight from his own barrio!
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: slwiser on November 26, 2006, 11:38:55 am
Since Dan's forum has been taken away for unclear reasons, at least from my perspective, all these discussion here are very unseemly and are very much a type "behind his back" posting.  When you can't defend yourself this is the control and type of attack one would expect.

If there were not so many actual issues that have not been appropriately addressed by the people here then there would be very much less defensiveness by those who have taken Dan's forum away.  

Another way of saying this is: methinks some here protest to much revealing something about what they actually know about the issue of jitter control.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: wwittman on November 26, 2006, 01:14:16 pm
danickstr wrote on Sat, 25 November 2006 16:55

Dan Lavry is passionate about his work, and that can rub some meatheads the wrong way.



it's fascinating to me, as I haven't followed any of this drama at ALL until now on this thread!

but it strikes me immediately how problematic it mist have been...

I mean, it's not possible to be rubbed the wrong way by someone, or Lavry in particular, without being a "meathead"?

REALLY?

no one is always right.
No one's products are always superior.


also: the "good fight" may be for preserving some aspects of analogue recording... it's certainly not about selling ONE brand of digital.

and:
anyone who thinks 96k digital recording doesn't sound better than 44.1 needs to spend less time selling gear and moderating forums and more time making records (or watching people make them)

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: wwittman on November 26, 2006, 03:25:27 pm
bblackwood wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 08:18

...(Fletcher and I) admit we made a mistake by allowing Dan to disassociate his forum from reality - that we work in a business that is almost entirely subjective and to divorce the 'art and science' of design from how it actually sounds doesn't help much...



sounds utterly reasonable to me.
In fact, after being told once or twice that my experience didn't matter because the forum wasn't "about" what things sound like... that's why i just stopped ever looking at that board.

I think i said, in one of my last posts there, that in my view the great technical people explain why we hear what we hear; the not so great ones try to tell us what we hear is "wrong"

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: malice on November 26, 2006, 03:41:16 pm
wwittman wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 21:25



I think i said, in one of my last posts there, that in my view the great technical people explain why we hear what we hear; the not so great ones try to tell us what we hear is "wrong"





I agree with this on a certain extend.

Lots of people are also buying gear after reading a review by other people they don't even know on the internet.

Then they are ready to defend their recent hyped aquisition against other potential aquisitions they haven't even heard for real.

They want so much to hear what they were told they will hear after putting a fancy box in their rack.

The power of the mind is sometimes greater than the power of reason.

I'm not saying anything about a particular hyped fancy box here.

I'm merely saying that sometimes, your ears might deceive you.

Your mind might deceive you.

And not being able to explain a phenomenon with science does not necessarely mean the simplest explanation is not the one you should embrace : there is nothing to hear at all, because there is no improvement, at all.

malice
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: studiojimi on November 26, 2006, 04:53:28 pm
malice wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 12:41


I'm merely saying that sometimes, your ears might deceive you.

Your mind might deceive you.

And not being able to explain a phenomenon with science does not necessarely mean the simplest explanation is not the one you should embrace : there is nothing to hear at all, because there is no improvement, at all.

malice


like the "soundsgood" brand 1K 1db boost plugin

i think blackwood is using them on my latest masterings i just got back from him
Twisted Evil

Laughing

the guy IS twisted i tell ya.

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: danickstr on November 26, 2006, 04:57:33 pm
yes I have to admit that you can rub people the wrong way without them being meatheads, and I was wrong to lump everyone who disagrees with Dan L in that category.  I have just seen a lot of de-bunking going on in Dan's forum and I think that is a great thing to see.

He seemed unconcerned with stepping on toes if his opinion was that the emporer's new clothes were imaginary. Other good people are more concerned with political or business correctness, and whether or not Dan's opinion was defensible or accusatory, it did come from experience and education.  

He is his own boss in real life, like many of us here, and that can make for a less flexible ideology when it comes to toning down rhetoric that may be perceived as volatile.  I wouldn't do it, and I may end up later admitting I was wrong about something.  Big deal.  If you are going to be wrong, why not be really wrong, and also be man enough to admit it later.

And I think Dan's point about converters was 96/88.1 vs 176.2/192 was not a necessary jump.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 27, 2006, 06:19:06 pm
wwittman wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 15:25

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 08:18

...(Fletcher and I) admit we made a mistake by allowing Dan to disassociate his forum from reality - that we work in a business that is almost entirely subjective and to divorce the 'art and science' of design from how it actually sounds doesn't help much...



sounds utterly reasonable to me.
In fact, after being told once or twice that my experience didn't matter because the forum wasn't "about" what things sound like... that's why i just stopped ever looking at that board.

I think i said, in one of my last posts there, that in my view the great technical people explain why we hear what we hear; the not so great ones try to tell us what we hear is "wrong"




You were simply asked to discuss your subjective opinions elsewhere.  The forum was about the technical side of things.  I don't understand why this was offensive or difficult to abide by.

Is it just unbridled arrogance that makes people unable to "stick to the facts" and unable to comprehend how some of us might not care about what your subjective opinion is?

Chris
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 27, 2006, 06:21:40 pm
wwittman wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 13:14



and:
anyone who thinks 96k digital recording doesn't sound better than 44.1 needs to spend less time selling gear and moderating forums and more time making records (or watching people make them)




This is exactly my point.  Having a place to get away from entirely subjective, blanket statements like this was really nice.

Chris
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: wwittman on November 27, 2006, 06:48:15 pm
danickstr wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 16:57


And I think Dan's point about converters was 96/88.1 vs 176.2/192 was not a necessary jump.


NO, I think his "point" had to do with 96k being "not really better" than 44.1

or something along the lines of there being "no REASON it should be better..."


Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: wwittman on November 27, 2006, 06:52:23 pm
crm0922 wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 18:19

You were simply asked to discuss your subjective opinions elsewhere.  The forum was about the technical side of things.  I don't understand why this was offensive or difficult to abide by.



and I did so.

and ultimately the 6 people who think this makes for a better discussion had a great time.

I guess I also benefited by "getting away from" snarky passive agressive comments like yours.
huh?

If I hear something as "better", telling me, in essence that,  I'm "wrong. it's not" is pointless.

That's not being "technical". That's being arrogant.

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 27, 2006, 09:11:19 pm
wwittman wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 18:52

crm0922 wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 18:19

You were simply asked to discuss your subjective opinions elsewhere.  The forum was about the technical side of things.  I don't understand why this was offensive or difficult to abide by.



and I did so.

and ultimately the 6 people who think this makes for a better discussion had a great time.

I guess I also benefited by "getting away from" snarky passive agressive comments like yours.
huh?

If I hear something as "better", telling me, in essence that,  I'm "wrong. it's not" is pointless.

That's not being "technical". That's being arrogant.




I don't think the comment was passive-aggressive.  It was meant to be taken literally, so I'm not sure how that could be passive-aggressive.

There were a lot more than 6 people involved in the clocking and sample rate discussions.

Without a proper ABX double blind test, comments about 96k "just sounding better" are totally meaningless in real life.  Do you really disagree here?

Chris
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 27, 2006, 09:27:18 pm
wwittman wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 23:48

danickstr wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 16:57


And I think Dan's point about converters was 96/88.1 vs 176.2/192 was not a necessary jump.


NO, I think his "point" had to do with 96k being "not really better" than 44.1

or something along the lines of there being "no REASON it should be better..."





What I took form the discussion is that  above 60 there were things gained but also things lost so around there would be the ideal.

I don't think he really was  that negative about  96 but 192 he dismissed as  marketing hype, which it surely is.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Ashermusic on November 27, 2006, 09:30:45 pm
wwittman wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 23:52

crm0922 wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 18:19

You were simply asked to discuss your subjective opinions elsewhere.  The forum was about the technical side of things.  I don't understand why this was offensive or difficult to abide by.



and I did so.

and ultimately the 6 people who think this makes for a better discussion had a great time.

I guess I also benefited by "getting away from" snarky passive agressive comments like yours.
huh?

If I hear something as "better", telling me, in essence that,  I'm "wrong. it's not" is pointless.

That's not being "technical". That's being arrogant.




Well count me as one of the six.

There are a gazillion forums where people can talk about what subjectively they think is better.

Dan would frequently say and I am paraphrasing, "I am not telling you that you  do not hear what you hear and think is better I  am only telling you that there is not a scientific reason to support it so something else must be going on."

I learned a lot from Dan and his forum.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Tomas Danko on November 27, 2006, 09:47:02 pm
Mr. Lavry pointed out that theoretically one should not need more than 44.1 kHz.

However, in reality implementation will change things as always. And he was up front regarding this, stating a higher sample rate due to practical reasons in respect to this.

Mr. Lavry said that around 50-60 kHz would be good, but in the real world people are already using 96 kHz as a standard and since it's the closest figure that's what he does.

He never said a converter will not sound better at 96 kHz compared to 44.1 kHz, in practice.

Now, enter the statement that Mr. Lavry allegedly insisted on having his own CD mastered at 192 kHz and THAT is one helluva can full of worms.  Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: studiojimi on November 27, 2006, 09:47:49 pm
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 18:27


I don't think he really was  that negative about  96 but 192 he dismissed as  marketing hype, which it surely is.



i have done 2 classical guitar cds

i used 3 mics on the guitar and mixed to taste

my client and i feel we love 192

even thought it is bounced to 44.1

when we compared the sound quality it to the other classical guitar cds we had....it just was so much clearer than the competition.

we didn't even consider mastering....it just satisfied us.

as momma said though

to each his own, said the lady who kissed the cow.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: PookyNMR on November 27, 2006, 10:25:33 pm
wwittman wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 16:48

danickstr wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 16:57


And I think Dan's point about converters was 96/88.1 vs 176.2/192 was not a necessary jump.


NO, I think his "point" had to do with 96k being "not really better" than 44.1

or something along the lines of there being "no REASON it should be better..."




Actually we had several conversations on several threads where 96k was shown to be better than 44.1, particularly for processing the signal.

Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Revolution on November 27, 2006, 11:20:56 pm
wwittman wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 10:48



NO, I think his "point" had to do with 96k being "not really better" than 44.1

or something along the lines of there being "no REASON it should be better..."





William can you post a link to the thread involving this post?

It's not much point arguing about what Dan "may" have said without the facts.

I guess that is exactly what Dan's forum was about. Sticking to the scientific facts and not what we thought may have been possibly the truth.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: wwittman on November 27, 2006, 11:24:25 pm
I doubt it as it's probably years ago now.

But does it MATTER anymore?



and just for the sake of clarity - I meant the 6 people (sarcastically) who really enjoyed having all "subjectivity" banned.


Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Revolution on November 28, 2006, 12:26:27 am
OK now this is quite sad.

Dan has accused Fletcher of instigating or at least having a significant roll in his departure.

Yes the same person who posted this slur over at gearsluts.

If the person who posted this has a saying in the running of this forum them all credability must now be lost.

I also like the request to lock the thread at the end. Just like Apogee's reply on Dan's forum.

Fletcher;991827

Wow.

Okely dokely... I will be as brief as possible.

David Manley was part of a company called "Vacuum Tube Logic", I believe his son still has something to do with it.  

Somehow they parted ways and "Manley Laboratories" was born.  David decided that the inside of a bottle was more attractive than wife and company so he fell off the face of the earth in said bottle leaving the wife behind with a bunch of debt [which David didn't help very much by buying a warehouse full of Neve
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: crm0922 on November 28, 2006, 01:04:36 am
I dunno.  Fletcher is a very close friend of EveAnna.  So he is entitled to have his opinions about the shitty things that he knows happened with her and David, etc.

Obviously he takes her side, and it is probably the right side from the sound of it.

Why does that post bother you so much?  I have friends who have been in relationships with drunk shitbags and I wouldn't hesitate to call them out as such either.

Chris
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Revolution on November 28, 2006, 01:15:22 am
crm0922 wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 17:04

I dunno.  Fletcher is a very close friend of EveAnna.  So he is entitled to have his opinions about the shitty things that he knows happened with her and David, etc.

Obviously he takes her side, and it is probably the right side from the sound of it.

Why does that post bother you so much?  I have friends who have been in relationships with drunk shitbags and I wouldn't hesitate to call them out as such either.

Chris




Just don't think it's appropriate to either side to have this stuff brought up in internet forums.

I think it just shows lack of character.

While im not saying Dan Lavry, David Manley, John Oram, EveAnna  are good people or not.

It's just cheep.
Title: Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
Post by: Fletcher on November 28, 2006, 08:36:56 pm
I agree with you that it was indeed a cheap shot that was being flung at EveAnna... and more importantly, the thread had no business being posted or left in the "High End" audio forum.  Their "moan zone" perhaps, but not the "High End" forum.

FWIW, I also thought it was particularly bad form that their moderators edited the posts subsequent to my making my post, and edited them in a manner that removed all dissenting viewpoint that EveAnna "stole" the company from the drunken pant load... which, seeing as EveAnna is one of the moderators over there I found to be exceptionally bad form.

I also spent a good portion of my afternoon lobbying one of the moderators of the forum to either kill the thread or move it to "The Moan Zone" [in other words to get a non-audio related discussion out of an audio forum].

As for the junior Oliver Stones in the "let's lynch Fletcher/Dan Lavry love fest"... I don't know how much clearer Mark Herman's post [it's back on page 6] could have been... while I was the guy that brought Dan in I had nothing to do with the final decision to show Dan out.

Y'all can cry whatever conspiracy theory you'd like, and you can cry it all day long... but that my friends don't make it so.  The fact of the matter is that the Lavry divorce from Mercenary Audio was made by Jay Fitz [official title: "Capo di tutti Capi" (which literally means "boss of the bosses")] because of somekind of issue where Lavry Engineering would no longer take Mercenary Audio's checks for product and Mercenary Audio doesn't have a corporate Mastercard or Visa [but much like the Olympics... the Lavry's don't take American Express which is the only card we have for things like paying for product and/or airline tickets... we get frequent flyer bonus points with that card which is how our crew gets to AES Europe every year... but I digress]... the PSW divorce was just a timing issue as Mark had enough of the nonsense at the same time Jay did.

Coincidence?  Maybe.  Probably.  I dunno... more importantly, I don't care.

Chris wants to talk about "ABX" tests... bro, have you ever sat through one of those things?  After about 3 tries I wouldn't know if it was live, memorex, 44.1, 96, or two cans with a string in the middle.  I have been forced to sit though more of those than I will ever hope to face for as long as I am on this planet... in fact, if I have to sit though another one of those things I'm doubling my appearance fee rate... or blowing my brains out.  What an abject waste of fucking time and resources... if I wanted to be confused and/or disoriented again I'd go back to doing drugs... which ain't on my list of shit to do today [unless ya got some that is].

That said, I am making an excecutive decision... something I'm actually fairly good at from time to time.  Today's executive decision is that this thread is going to say "nighty night" and go to sleep.  You may feel free to start another thread all about the closing of this thread... but this sumbitch is done.

...which brings us to the close of yet another broadcast day... thanks for stopping by... hope to see ya around reeeeeeeeel soon.

Good night... and good luck.