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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => j. hall => Topic started by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 09:39:45 am

Title: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 09:39:45 am
Like the title says I'm new around here and I think I need someone to tell me what Indie Rock would be. Independent Artists?? Unsigned?? Whinny,Oversensitive, Bar Chord Playing, Twenty Somethings that want to sound EXACTLY like the last band that was just on the radio (with a lot of WHOAs in the chorus)??????

So someone try to let me know so I know what I'm in for...
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: archtop on February 23, 2006, 11:22:21 am
Imposter.





I could tell
because analog wasn't mentioned.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 11:31:18 am
Who needs analog.... I've got plugins for that..and I can put them everywhere.. Make the drums sound like one tape machine... vocals sound like another... Guitars on a studer, bass on Otari... Razz  Evil or Very Mad

Anyway back to the question.... INDIE????
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 23, 2006, 11:47:56 am
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp? z=y&isbn=0316787531&itm=1
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 11:57:20 am
pg666 wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 11:47

 http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp? z=y&isbn=0316787531&itm=1



Thats 15 years old! How does that help? Thats almost vintage! Would that be classic "indie"?
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 23, 2006, 12:10:18 pm
the book was put out in 2001..

and yeah, if you're interested in learning about it, you might as well go straight to the classics.

plus, almost all the people involved are still kickin' around.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: NelsonL on February 23, 2006, 12:46:28 pm
I went to a mastering session last weekend where the ME was saying that his most challenging clients are indie rockers-- they're the most opinionated.

As for the question above, just fake it until you make it cuz the kids can smell fear.

I'll be in Brooklyn this weekend helping open a new project studio, if I see any indie rockers I'll send them out to Jersey to explain themselves!

El Presidente should be along any minute...
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 01:55:34 pm
rattleyour wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 12:46



El Presidente should be along any minute...


I think a visit from the President would be a good thing. I would expect someone to come up with some kind of answer to this eventually. I mean - you've got a whole forum dedicated to it! Doesnt seem like there's anything different going on here than anywhere else.... just different faces...

So whats the deal? Is it a sound?? Like Motown? Surf music of the 60's.... Modern Punk?? Can a jam band be indie? Can a rock band be indie? Can an indie band be rock??

Should I be handeling "indie" clients differntly ? Is the band going to sound indie despite what I do as an engineer? Do I need certain gear to achieve an Indie sound?? Should some gear be avoided because its not indie enough?

I think these are real questions that should be answered. Right???
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: Iain Graham on February 23, 2006, 02:14:53 pm
rattleyour wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 17:46


El Presidente should be along any minute...


I thought you meant the band from Glasgow. I was trying to figure out how they were indie rock.....

Iain

*badly need a day off, alcohol has stopped working*
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 02:17:18 pm
Iain Graham wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 14:14

rattleyour wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 17:46


El Presidente should be along any minute...


I thought you meant the band from Glasgow. I was trying to figure out how they were indie rock.....

Iain

*badly need a day off, alcohol has stopped working*


A mexican band from Glasgow- now that sounds indie!!!

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: garret on February 23, 2006, 02:26:58 pm
MorningStar wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 13:55


So whats the deal? Is it a sound?? Like Motown? Surf music of the 60's.... Modern Punk?? Can a jam band be indie? Can a rock band be indie? Can an indie band be rock??

Should I be handeling "indie" clients differntly ? Is the band going to sound indie despite what I do as an engineer? Do I need certain gear to achieve an Indie sound?? Should some gear be avoided because its not indie enough?

I think these are real questions that should be answered. Right???


Let's see if I can make things even more confusing.

A rock band can be indie.  An indie band can be rock.  But not necessarily.... Guns and Roses was a rock band.   Definitely not indie.   Belle and Sebastian are indie, but not rock.  Most indie bands are on small independent labels, or unsigned.  There are some exceptions who make the jump and keep their indie cred.  Modest Mouse would be one example...

Most jam bands _cannot_ be indie rock.   Instrumental wanking is off-limits in indie rock.  There are very few exceptions... Built to Spill is one of them.

Indie = independent of major labels... fresh, without commercial intent, do-it-yourself, etc.  Heritage goes back to punk bands, but the genre is more open-ended.  There are indie bands that are inspired by surf music (Los Straitjackets), 70s jazz fusion, or 60s french pop.  You get to be called indie pretty easily.  You only get to be called indie rock if you bring the rock.  Otherwise, you are called twee or more generously indie pop.  That's where I get shoved.

As for handling indie rock clients, you might want to get familiar with a short list of indie heroes.

Off the top of my head...

Yo La Tengo
Built to Spill
Sonic Youth
Modest Mouse
Pavement
Fugazi
My Bloody Valentine
Guided by Voices
Neutral Milk Hotel
Flaming Lips
Interpol
Mogwai
Pixies
Sea and Cake
Sigur Ros
Stereolab
Tortoise

More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indie_rock_artists

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: NelsonL on February 23, 2006, 02:34:28 pm
MorningStar wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 11:17

Iain Graham wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 14:14

rattleyour wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 17:46


El Presidente should be along any minute...


I thought you meant the band from Glasgow. I was trying to figure out how they were indie rock.....

Iain

*badly need a day off, alcohol has stopped working*


A mexican band from Glasgow- now that sounds indie!!!




Yer a mole! Myspace reveals an affilaition w/ Kevin AKA The Viking who was among the first to be exiled by El Presidente for Felonious Alanis w(h)orship. [Edit: the H is optional. Heh.]

Move along people. There's nothing to see here...

  http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/125850/898/?SQ= 836f4ba9664c8098cbb3274ee27a180c#msg_125850

What do you like your MP1A on?
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 03:04:34 pm
rattleyour wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 14:34

MorningStar wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 11:17

Iain Graham wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 14:14

rattleyour wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 17:46


El Presidente should be along any minute...


I thought you meant the band from Glasgow. I was trying to figure out how they were indie rock.....

Iain

*badly need a day off, alcohol has stopped working*


A mexican band from Glasgow- now that sounds indie!!!




Yer a mole! Myspace reveals an affilaition w/ Kevin AKA The Viking who was among the first to be exiled by El Presidente for Felonious Alanis w(h)orship. [Edit: the H is optional. Heh.]

Move along people. There's nothing to see here...

   http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/125850/898/?SQ= 836f4ba9664c8098cbb3274ee27a180c#msg_125850

What do you like your MP1A on?


NO MOLE!! He cant answer the question either!!! I cant be exiled, I dont have membership! I'm kinda like a diplomat. I get to go where I want and not pay my parking tickets. and if you'll notice, I appeared in that thread in support of the president....


And I like the MP1A on bass guitar, I like to run the subkick through it on kick drum, bass cabs. Its also great on brass.


Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 03:10:04 pm
garretg wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 14:26

MorningStar wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 13:55


So whats the deal? Is it a sound?? Like Motown? Surf music of the 60's.... Modern Punk?? Can a jam band be indie? Can a rock band be indie? Can an indie band be rock??

Should I be handeling "indie" clients differntly ? Is the band going to sound indie despite what I do as an engineer? Do I need certain gear to achieve an Indie sound?? Should some gear be avoided because its not indie enough?

I think these are real questions that should be answered. Right???


Let's see if I can make things even more confusing.

A rock band can be indie.  An indie band can be rock.  But not necessarily.... Guns and Roses was a rock band.   Definitely not indie.   Belle and Sebastian are indie, but not rock.  Most indie bands are on small independent labels, or unsigned.  There are some exceptions who make the jump and keep their indie cred.  Modest Mouse would be one example...

Most jam bands _cannot_ be indie rock.   Instrumental wanking is off-limits in indie rock.  There are very few exceptions... Built to Spill is one of them.

Indie = independent of major labels... fresh, without commercial intent, do-it-yourself, etc.  Heritage goes back to punk bands, but the genre is more open-ended.  There are indie bands that are inspired by surf music (Los Straitjackets), 70s jazz fusion, or 60s french pop.  You get to be called indie pretty easily.  You only get to be called indie rock if you bring the rock.  Otherwise, you are called twee or more generously indie pop.  That's where I get shoved.

As for handling indie rock clients, you might want to get familiar with a short list of indie heroes.

Off the top of my head...

Yo La Tengo
Built to Spill
Sonic Youth
Modest Mouse
Pavement
Fugazi
My Bloody Valentine
Guided by Voices
Neutral Milk Hotel
Flaming Lips
Interpol
Mogwai
Pixies
Sea and Cake
Sigur Ros
Stereolab
Tortoise

More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indie_rock_artists




NOW we are getting somewhere! Here is the problem I have now. I understand the non-major part of it. But the FRESH, WITHOUT COMMERCIAL INTENT is where i get lost. Most people who talk indie , talk about bands that i think all sound exactly alike. There's nothing fresh about it. Everyone wants to sound exactly like what they are hearing on the radio.
I'm going to freshen up on some of the bands you listed so I can be hip again.
But with all that in mind.. wouldnt it be more indie to be a "rock" band?? Bringing back all that freshness of the late 60's? early 70's???
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: scott volthause on February 23, 2006, 03:26:11 pm
[/care][care]

oh look. i stopped caring before i even started.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 03:27:56 pm
scott volthause wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 15:26

[/care][care]

oh look. i stopped caring before i even started.


Hey. Thanks for stopping by! Have a good one.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: Bivouac on February 23, 2006, 03:30:16 pm
My definition of indie rock is about as open-ended as the cornucopia of sounds it associates with...

"I know it when I see it..."
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: garret on February 23, 2006, 04:12:03 pm
MorningStar wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 15:10


NOW we are getting somewhere! Here is the problem I have now. I understand the non-major part of it. But the FRESH, WITHOUT COMMERCIAL INTENT is where i get lost. Most people who talk indie , talk about bands that i think all sound exactly alike. There's nothing fresh about it. Everyone wants to sound exactly like what they are hearing on the radio.
I'm going to freshen up on some of the bands you listed so I can be hip again.



Commercialized poppy punk is huge right now.   Ya know the stuff, bad punky vocals, three chords, inane mopey lyrics, etc... the high school kids eat it up.  A small amount of that is indie... most of it isn't.

Here's an attempt at explaining "emo"... seems to get close.
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring03/Seawell/history.htm

There are/were some amazing bands in that subgenre...  Promise Ring, Joan of Arc, Braid, Sunny Day Real Estate, and a huge number I can't remember because they were best in person, in someone's tiny apartment, with a couple PBR's in ya.

Quote:


But with all that in mind.. wouldnt it be more indie to be a "rock" band?? Bringing back all that freshness of the late 60's? early 70's???



Yes.  70s rock is out of fashion, so it's cool in the counter-culture.

The best indie bands (like the best non-indie bands) are the ones whose sound doesn't fit any single stereotype.... it's just good stuff, inspired by whatever the principals involved grew up listening to.  Lots of 70s & 80s stuff is showing up now in indie circles... Ted Leo's track "Timorous Me" could be a Rick Springfield outtake.     I forgot Ted Leo.  Put them on your short list... get the Tyranny of Distance, it's a stunner.

My brother's band (Aloha) even put some guitar solos in their last record.... took me a while to forgive em, but now I like it.

The bands I listed aren't current... some are a decade old or more.. if you want to know what the kids are listening to now, someone else will have to fill in the details.  But it's all good stuff, that I can guarantee.

-Garret
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 23, 2006, 05:58:44 pm
AHEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I walk away for five minutes and the class goes crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!

pg666 wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 10:47

 http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp? z=y&isbn=0316787531&itm=1


Brian, is right, this book is practically required reading.  

Garret is really cranking away here.  I’ll try not to re-type what he has spent time typing in the first place.

I’d like to start off by saying 2 things.

1.    I hate labels.  music is music, art is art.  IMO, labeling it only draws lines, and puts things into boxes.  That behavior only creates static boundaries that inhibit creativity and expression.  However, without some sort of general reference we would have a really hard time communicating.  Thus labels come into play.  I did not coin the term "indie rock" nor, emo, garage, punk, screamo, hardcore, grindcore......etc......  Nor did I place certain ideas, sounds, concepts into the definition of "indie rock" or any of the other terms.  My use of that term is merely to communicate to others like me, where I’m coming from.  Unfortunately, saying "I’m an indie rocker" carries meaning with others like me.  It’s like telling a group of random people, "I’m a boy scout" then you end up weeding out all the other people that are not boy scouts and you can now hang out with like minded people.  So, I use this term for the purpose of communication.  The negative side of advocating its use I’ve already typed, and I accept those.

2.   Do not confuse “indie rock” with the roots of the two words “independent rock n roll”.  Anymore, it has little to do with the record label that holds any one band’s contract.  At one point it did, this is no longer the case.  You have to separate the idea that “indie rock” only applies to those bands NOT belonging to certain record labels.

Now that we have that out of the way I’ll add one more thing before I let every one argue.

Bivouac wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 14:30

My definition of indie rock is about as open-ended as the cornucopia of sounds it associates with...

"I know it when I see it..."


Thus proving my more recent points that indie rock has become more about fashion then attitude, music, or politics.

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 23, 2006, 06:15:42 pm
Yeah but everyone knows what a boy scout is
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 23, 2006, 07:40:47 pm
Quote:

Most people who talk indie , talk about bands that i think all sound exactly alike. There's nothing fresh about it. Everyone wants to sound exactly like what they are hearing on the radio.


this is where you were fooled. it's really cool (and commercial) to throw the term 'indie' around these days. the bands you were probably told were indie most likely have nothing to do with the spirit that fueled great bands like Husker Du, Mission of Burma, Sonic Youth, and Big Black (names that would mean something if you READ THAT BOOK, seriously, it'll rekindle your spirit in rock). Bands like the Killers, Rilo Kiley, Death Cab For Cutie (sorry folks, time to let go..), and Elephant are so far removed from underground rock they are better off being classified alongside Madonna... which is fine, just don't confuse it with the type of music that keeps many of us going.

These current bands do embody that same punk rock spirit and sound nothing like stuff on the radio (or each other): Medications, Electrelane, Oneida, Lightning Bolt, Pelican, Make Believe, Dead Meadow, the New Year, Liars, Deerhoof, Breather Resist, and about a trillion others.

uh, why did i even post that? i like scott's response more..
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: garret on February 23, 2006, 07:52:15 pm
pg666 wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 19:40


These current bands do embody that same punk rock spirit and sound nothing like stuff on the radio (or each other): Medications, Electrelane, Oneida, Lightning Bolt, Pelican, Make Believe, Dead Meadow, the New Year, Liars, Deerhoof, Breather Resist, and about a trillion others.



See, there ya go, I told ya I was out of it.  I don't know any of these bands.. Smile I realy gotta buy some new records.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: Bivouac on February 23, 2006, 08:05:31 pm
j.hall wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 15:58



Thus proving my more recent points that indie rock has become more about fashion then attitude, music, or politics.




Well, let me clarify since I'm pretty sure we agree with each other...

When I say, "I know it when I see it", I'm not insinuating that I think anyone with Buddy Holly glasses and a pair of Chuck's is indie rock.  In fact, I'm not trying to make any points about aesthetics at all...

Perhaps it would be more accurate of me to say, "I know it when I (hear) it"--and I'm not saying because a band sounds like another band previously classified as indie rock, they're indie rock either...

I'm saying when I hear a certain commitment to songwriting and originality, an underlying attitude or strife, artists more concerned with the significance of their music than fame or fortune, THAT'S indie rock.

I'm not talking about a look or a sound.  
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: scottoliphant on February 23, 2006, 09:13:23 pm
Quote:

There's nothing fresh about it. Everyone wants to sound exactly like what they are hearing on the radio.
no "indie" bands i personally know prescribe to this. anyone else? lot's of good bands where mentioned. try out spoon. great songwriting. exploding popularity (well deserved) and doesn't sound a thing like radio (at least not in austin, maybe radio is different elsewhere, but, i doubt it).

Quote:

Everyone wants to sound exactly like what they are hearing on the radio.
is this true for the majority of music you record? just curious

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 23, 2006, 09:53:54 pm
Quote:

I don't know any of these bands..


nah, you mentioned Joan of Arc earlier, so you kinda already know Make Believe (Tim Kinsella's new band that's less artsy, more Captain Beefheart-y).
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 24, 2006, 09:57:47 am
ok- so I 've been checking out some of the bands mentioned in this thread... I think I need El Presidente to give me a list of whats hot at the moment... and start from the top down...
From what I'm gathering, its more about an attitude. I havent been blown away by the originality of anything I've heard so far. Some of its cool, but nothing ground breaking.

and why can't anyone sing anymore? Whats the deal. Where all all the good singers??
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: cdr-1 on February 24, 2006, 10:18:42 am
I've got a Thomas Jefferson Slave Appartments record that came out on one of Pollard's lables.

Best line in the record...

"indy rock is just bad punk"
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: starscream2010 on February 24, 2006, 10:36:13 am
MorningStar wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 08:57

ok- so I 've been checking out some of the bands mentioned in this thread... I think I need El Presidente to give me a list of whats hot at the moment... and start from the top down...
From what I'm gathering, its more about an attitude. I havent been blown away by the originality of anything I've heard so far. Some of its cool, but nothing ground breaking.

and why can't anyone sing anymore? Whats the deal. Where all all the good singers??


While I'm not El Presidente and my membership has been revoked due to the "Journey incident" of '06... I would like to recommend that you check out all and/or some of the following bands... Minus The Bear, Riddle Of Steel, The Life and Times, Mogwai, Open Hand, Burning Airlines, HUM, Pelican, Mono, Pinback, Roman Numerals, Roma 79, Bloc Party... that's all I can of off the top of my head right now.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 24, 2006, 10:40:00 am
MorningStar wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 08:57

I think I need El Presidente to give me a list of whats hot at the moment...



i'm not an encyclopedia of indie rock bands!

i'll tell you what i'm into, but indie rock is a HUGE world that exist just under the surface of the mainstream.  there are so many bands, and i have so little time.

i typically only get exposed to the indie bands that have landed decent deals with decent promotion and distro, or i happen to catch them at a show and buy the record.

yes, i still buy most of my CD's at shows, and about 90% of my wardrobe comes from shows.

i think we should honestly start with the past.

i bought my first fugazi record (repeater) cause i thought the band's name was cool, and i saw the dischord imprint on the back.

if it weren't for that record i would have continue my listening trends into a life of metal.  it's no secret people, j.hall has a major soft spot for metal.....

so, let's go to the roots of j.hall's entrance into indie rock.

records appear in the closest order, i can remember, in which i acquired them.

1.  Fugazi - repeater
2.  Jawbox - Grippe
3.  Helmet - meantime
4.  Minor Threat - Discography
5.  Quicksand - Slip
6.  Fugazi - 13 songs
7.  Fugazi - Steady Diet Of Nothing
8.  Drive Like Jehu - Yank Crime
9.  Helmet - Strap It On
10. Nation Of Ulysseys - Plays Pretty For Baby
11. Rocket From the Crypt - Scream Dracula, Scream
12. Shudder To Think - Pony Express Record

i'm sure the time line is completely screwed on that.

when i was a teenager i was buying tons of records.....all my money was going to it.  i would buy records if they were on labels i liked.......if the band's name was cool....whatever.

here is a list of indie rock records to note.

burning airlines - identikit (or mission: control, both records are GREAT)
sunny day real estate - LP2
afghan whigs - congregation
boys life - departures and land falls
braid - frame and canvas
shellac - 1000 hurts, at action park, terraform
june of 44


the list is way too long!

more recent stuff that's caught my attention

bullet train to vegas
the valley arena
new black
minus the bear
the life and times
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 24, 2006, 10:42:45 am
cdr-1 wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 09:18


"indy rock is just bad punk"


i might have agreed with that if indie rock used less then three chords per song all of which were power chords.  since it doesn't, i'd have to say that "alt country" is just bad punk.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: xonlocust on February 24, 2006, 11:17:43 am
j.hall wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 09:40

more recent stuff that's caught my attention

bullet train to vegas
the valley arena
new black
minus the bear
the life and times


i'm flattered j. thanks!

morningstar if you wanna listen for free even you can at:
http://www.purevolume.com/newblack

at any rate... i also wanted to throw in another small sampling:

the birthday party
brainiac
failure
girls against boys
the gossip
helium
hot snakes
icarus line
the jesus lizard
jud jud
les savy fav
lost sounds
mclusky
milemarker
nick cave & the bad seeds
no knife
pixes
the ponys
pj harvey
q and not u
quintron
scratch acid
six finger satellite
sonic youth
superchunk
u.s. maple

(can you tell i just scrolled through my itunes playlist for bands not already mentioned that i think are of note....)

i think we all have our own little personaly tastes and subsets of indie music that we like. what everyone that i know has in common is a sense of finding some band or record or seeing some small show that drastically shifted how they perceive music.  you'll get a different list from everyone here. i guess in some respect we're a bunch of born again christians.  maybe it is some wierd sort of elitism - or i found this great band noone else knows about.... i dunno. it's just music. whatever.  i also listen to a lot of houston rap so what do i know.

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 24, 2006, 11:25:49 am
Quote:

since it doesn't, i'd have to say that "alt country" is just bad punk.


haha. i'd also call alt-country "an excuse to drink. a lot."

to answer the question "where are the great singers?"...

Shannonwright
Spoon
Cat Power
Electrelane
Open Hand

probably a bunch more i can't think of

yup
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 24, 2006, 11:48:57 am
pg666 wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 11:25

Quote:

since it doesn't, i'd have to say that "alt country" is just bad punk.


haha. i'd also call alt-country "an excuse to drink. a lot."

to answer the question "where are the great singers?"...

Shannonwright
Spoon
Cat Power
Electrelane
Open Hand

probably a bunch more i can't think of

yup


Shannonwright- Fionia Apple is indie??
Spoon - eh maybe, its cool
Cat Power -yes - thankyou!
Electrelane- vocals are most definately weak- can we sing in tune???
Open Hand - YES YES YES- is this indie???
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 24, 2006, 12:08:58 pm
Quote:

Open Hand - YES YES YES- is this indie???


yup. they even turned down a few major label contracts. (and not your standard, obviously shitty deals...)

admittedly, their sound isn't too far from some commercial rock, but whatever.

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 24, 2006, 12:34:45 pm
indie rock has never been about vocal talent.

if we are going to talk about vocals as it relates ti indie rock this is the most true statement:

indie rock is mostly about what you have to say, not how in tune you say it.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: Fabricoh35 on February 24, 2006, 12:42:39 pm
j.hall wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 12:34

indie rock has never been about vocal talent.

if we are going to talk about vocals as it relates ti indie rock this is the most true statement:

indie rock is mostly about what you have to say, not how in tune you say it.


Can you say Halo Benders!
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: starscream2010 on February 24, 2006, 12:54:37 pm
j.hall wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 11:34

indie rock has never been about vocal talent.

if we are going to talk about vocals as it relates ti indie rock this is the most true statement:

indie rock is mostly about what you have to say, not how in tune you say it.



I couldn't agree more with that statement.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 24, 2006, 01:13:23 pm
j.hall wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 12:34

indie rock has never been about vocal talent.

if we are going to talk about vocals as it relates ti indie rock this is the most true statement:

indie rock is mostly about what you have to say, not how in tune you say it.


Oh boy... I hate to even say this then- but it comes back to image and attitude then doesn't it?? Talent isnt really part of it. Its all about what I have to say and how I'm getting my message across..

So just to tie this in to what I think the point of the forum is. The real question is How do we go about capturing that "message" on tape (hard drives, whatever..)
Now I really hate to  say this but doesnt it really tie into the Albini philosphy of just being the guy that captures what the artist is, without imparting any of my own sound to it?? Wouldnt the point be to stay out of the way  and let the artist create?? Gear becomes less important then doesnt it.  

And I still want to know when music stopped being about talent. I cant get away with sucking as an engineer. Can I create a sound where out of phase drums is how I express myself.
Twisted Evil
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 24, 2006, 01:34:04 pm
MorningStar wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 12:13



Oh boy... I hate to even say this then- but it comes back to image and attitude then doesn't it?? Talent isnt really part of it. Its all about what I have to say and how I'm getting my message across..



talent is still a huge part of it.  just not vocally.

image is going to always be apart of any movement, or trend.  punks looked a certain way (for the most part), cowboys have a look, etc.....

attitude is probably what most defines indie rock.

Quote:


So just to tie this in to what I think the point of the forum is. The real question is How do we go about capturing that "message" on tape (hard drives, whatever..)



ummmmmmmmm, i guess.  my view of this forum has always been, "i'm a life long indie rock kid.  i know it, live it, and love it.  i happen to record it and mix it A LOT!  with all these other forums talking about recording, i should probably concentrate on what i know, and live daily.  that happens to be low budget indie rock records........."  the people that run this place requested that we all put a very short blurb up about our forum.  i figured that "indie rock in practice and in theory" would be sorta open ended to those in the know.  and that's where i set my sights.

Quote:


Now I really hate to  say this but doesnt it really tie into the Albini philosphy of just being the guy that captures what the artist is, without imparting any of my own sound to it??



not a bit.  i openly admit that my records (while each one sounds a bit different) all have the "j.hall sonic thumbprint".  i'm proud of it, it's who i am, and i can't change it.  people seem to dig it and they hire me to do it to their songs.

Quote:


Wouldnt the point be to stay out of the way  and let the artist create??



i can't stay "out of the way" if i'm the one mixing the record.  the concept of that blows my mind.  how do i not be in the room working and blending to my own ear and still get the songs mixed?

Quote:


Gear becomes less important then doesnt it.  



can you record without gear?

i sure can't.

and the gear i choose imparts a character on what i pass through it, so gear is very important to me.

Quote:


And I still want to know when music stopped being about talent.



when lawyers and record labels got involved.....HAHAHAHAHA

Quote:


I cant get away with sucking as an engineer. Can I create a sound where out of phase drums is how I express myself.



you can suck all you want, just don't expect to have a lot of clients.

out of phase drums, sure! just don't expect to have a lot of clients or radio play.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 24, 2006, 01:53:02 pm
Quote:

Oh boy... I hate to even say this then- but it comes back to image and attitude then doesn't it?? Talent isnt really part of it.


uhh... no, sheesh.

john lennon sang off key sometimes and if you think he's not a talented singer... i'm near exit 10 on the NJTP right now and i'll come up there and slap ya

just kidding.. but not completely  Twisted Evil

there are a LOT of talented people in indie rock. there are a handful who are amongst the all-time greats at their craft. what some underground bands realized by the late 70s is that technical proficiency shouldn't get in the way of honesty and emotional content. that doesn't mean people aren't talented if they are missing notes; hell, they might be doing it purposely for a reason. i personally like it when a singer is truly going for it even if quivering a bit. it makes it all the more human and relatable, something you won't get out of your Totos and Steely Dans..

applying conventional standards ("the singer's off key" or "why is there all that noise", ya know.. things my fuckin' grandma would say about music) doesn't work when it comes to (often) very unconventional music.

[edit: garretg's 1st paragraph below says the same thing more eloquently]
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: garret on February 24, 2006, 02:06:09 pm
There's a big different between talent and skill.   I guess that's the thing... Ira from Yo La Tengo has gobs of singing talent, but there's no way he'd make the first cut of american idol.  I do think singing talent is part of indie rock.  But keeping exactly on pitch, having a rich timbre to your voice, etc., are not necessarily requirements.  In indie rock circles, timing & delivery, feeling & energy, are more important than having a voice that can span 6 octaves.  There are great singers in indie rock circles that can do both.  Ted Leo comes to mind again.... the folks in Stereolab, Jeff Tweedy from Wilco, to name a few.  They all have voices I'd enjoy hearing read the phone book.

It's interesting to see the issue of "declining skills" turning up often on these forums.  I'm someone who I think has talent, but not a lot of skill... so for me the recording process is about capturing whatever magic I can create with the limited skills I have.  That's rather punk, I think.


Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: Iain Graham on February 24, 2006, 02:19:47 pm
MorningStar wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 18:13

So just to tie this in to what I think the point of the forum is. The real question is How do we go about capturing that "message" on tape (hard drives, whatever..)
Now I really hate to  say this but doesnt it really tie into the Albini philosphy of just being the guy that captures what the artist is, without imparting any of my own sound to it?? Wouldnt the point be to stay out of the way  and let the artist create?? Gear becomes less important then doesnt it.  



To me that would make the gear even more important. You'd want it to be as neutral as possible. Anything even remotely coloured that you'd choose to use would be imparting your sound on the artist.

The mics/pre-amps that you choose to use during recording are imparting your sound. Because you chose that combination. We're all just capturing what the artist is doing. It's how we capture it that gives us "our sound".

The fact that Albini doesn't use very much processing means he's happy with the way his capture translates to the delivery medium.

Those of us who use more processing do so because we feel it is the best way of getting what we've captured onto the delivery medium, and getting the best representation of the artist out there. Or we've been asked to match the way someone else has done it before us.

I'm talking about a basic recording here, not including any special or different effects. I'm thinking of the project I'm on just now where the kit has gone through all kinds of processing, from the B4 to Amp Farm and back. Of the 8 songs I tracked kit on, 2 of them have a straight ahead drum sound on them. Never mind the rest of the band.

It's not indie rock, but most of the stuff I do isn't.  I just happen to be a rock and roll engineer making mostly folk records  Twisted Evil  Laughing

Iain
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: xonlocust on February 24, 2006, 03:47:37 pm
garretg wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 13:06

There's a big different between talent and skill.   I guess that's the thing... Ira from Yo La Tengo has gobs of singing talent, but there's no way he'd make the first cut of american idol.  I do think singing talent is part of indie rock.  But keeping exactly on pitch, having a rich timbre to your voice, etc., are not necessarily requirements.  In indie rock circles, timing & delivery, feeling & energy, are more important than having a voice that can span 6 octaves.  There are great singers in indie rock circles that can do both.  Ted Leo comes to mind again.... the folks in Stereolab, Jeff Tweedy from Wilco, to name a few.  They all have voices I'd enjoy hearing read the phone book.

It's interesting to see the issue of "declining skills" turning up often on these forums.  I'm someone who I think has talent, but not a lot of skill... so for me the recording process is about capturing whatever magic I can create with the limited skills I have.  That's rather punk, I think.





that is an excellent post. one thing i look for in records i make or like is something unique. although i spose that's true for everyone, but more often than not, the thing that i personally like about a record is that quivering voice, or slight speeeing up... all those things that are left in or kept as a choice to separate it from the slew of other records out there.  the fact that it's so easy to engineer those things out these days w/autotune or sample replacement makes the point that records being made right now with those "mistakes" intact, really shows they're not mistakes at all...

as i get older - the more i see distinct parallels between indie/punk and the folk movement & dylan.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 24, 2006, 04:27:48 pm
we are not going to turn this into an albini debate.  take that to his forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the odd thing to me about all this is the overwhelming desire for those who don't know what exactly "indie rock" is, to find out.

not slighting those who don't know in anyway.  i just find it interesting.

i don't really understand what hip hop is, but i honestly couldn't care less.  i have a basic idea that hip hop is the rap equivilent to indie rock, but i haven't a clue where it begins and ends.  and yes, i do enjoy some rap and/or hip hop.

something else i've noticed that really intrigues me.

it seems as though the mainstream market is just as fascinated about indie rock as those inquiring about it form time to time on my forum.

about 6 years ago i told a friend that it wouldn't be too long before the lines of the underground and the mainstream became blurred.  he disagreed and thought that underground rock would never see the light of day and would essentially be kept "safe" by it's on idiosincricies that keep the mainstream from liking it.

my 13 year old neice has been wearing a white studded belt since she was 11.  she has slowly stopped shopping at limited and A&F and started asking me if KC has a hot topic and urban outfitters.

the "look" of indie rock is so mainstream now it is popular fashion.

we're even seeing the musical lines of indie rock getting blurred.

with band's like the used, hawthorn heights, coheed and cambria, open hand, etc.... hitting the mainstream with decent to great success it's getting even harder to say what exactly indie rock is or isn't.

i feel like i need to take an adam sandler moment and point out just who's "jewish" and who isn't.

those of us who have spent our "formative years" to present in the underground know exactly "what time it is".  those who haven't are struggling to figure out what the hell we are all talking about.

fibes, xonlocust and i once spent many hours discussing this topic.  we sorta came up with the analogy that indie rock, anymore, has become a secret society completely on accident.

perhaps not on accident.

a syndicate if you will.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: Fabricoh35 on February 24, 2006, 09:37:24 pm
Morningstar, I give you something to check out.  Go listen to Archers of Loaf (old) and then Crooked Fingers (new).  Same guys fronts both bands.

Let me know what you think.  I don't want to influence your thoughts so I won't say anymore.

Eric knew what was coming back on the Vee Vee album when he sang "the underground is overcrowded".
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: John Ivan on February 25, 2006, 04:20:41 pm
Fabricoh35 wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 21:37

Morningstar, I give you something to check out.  Go listen to Archers of Loaf (old) and then Crooked Fingers (new).  Same guys fronts both bands.

Let me know what you think.  I don't want to influence your thoughts so I won't say anymore.

Eric knew what was coming back on the Vee Vee album when he sang "the underground is overcrowded".



This is a very interesting thread and I'm glad I read it.

It has always puzzled me as well. I don't care what the label might be on any given record or whether it's called indie or mainstream. I just dig music so, if there's a group of musicians and engineers that have this thing called indie, great!

I think J-Hall is right on when he says it's a way to communicate. I know what people mean when they say, "Jazz" although, people are butchering this term more and more, those of us who are jazz lovers know it when we hear it. Right?

I used to sorta raz folks who talked about Indie or being indie but have come around to seeing that it means something to them. That's very important! They know each other and there's a scene there that really IS different from all the rest of the stuff out there.

Now, when it comes to musical taste,I don't really dig most stuff I've heard called indie but I haven't heard nearly the amount I need to, to make a judgement that is sweeping.

I think back on the music the really moved me and it was all soul r&b, jazz,blues, funk and certain rock bands. So, maybe there's some great stuff like that happening in what is known as the "Indie" world.

Look, if this term is somehow bringing like minded folks together to express themselves through music,all one line jokes aside about being indie,, I think it rules. Anything that generates forward motion in music is cool with me.

Here's a band I dig a lot From Flint MI/.

http://www.funkilinium.com/
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: scottoliphant on February 25, 2006, 07:47:12 pm
Quote:

And I still want to know when music stopped being about talent.
when it became easy with click of a button to make people sound talented? There is a lot less of this in "indie" circles, which is maybe why you hear people who you think can't sing =)

And J, thank you for reminding me about the sunny day record with the fly on it. haven't heard that album in a while and it rocks (morning star will LOVE his voice).
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: xonlocust on February 26, 2006, 01:41:53 pm
check out the gossip too. beth ditto can sing like a mofo.

http://www.gossipyouth.com/
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: ridgeback on February 26, 2006, 10:07:04 pm
indie? vocal talent? attitude? innovative?

the new pornagraphers
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: starscream2010 on February 27, 2006, 09:40:30 am
Fabricoh35 wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 20:37


Eric knew what was coming back on the Vee Vee album when he sang "the underground is overcrowded".


Indeed he did... I love that record. I saw Archers on that tour with The Poster Children and Orbit for $5 and it remains to be in the top 5 of my all time favorite shows... I was 14 and that was one of those shows that changed my perspective and pointed me in the 'right' direction.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 27, 2006, 04:08:19 pm
ivan40 wrote on Sat, 25 February 2006 15:20

Anything that generates forward motion in music is cool with me.



that's an awesome attitude to have!  good post Ivan!

Quote:


morningstar wrote:
And I still want to know when music stopped being about talent.



we can all point the finger at autotune, beat detective, sound replacer, the ability to punch in, copy and paste, multi-track.  but all that is technology improving the speed at which we can do our jobs as engineers.

the real answer is......as soon as music became a product that was mass marketed to a specific demographic.  from that point forward, it's been a slippery slope to simply feed the machine what it wants, regardless of quality.......it's all about quantity and that age old top seller......sex.

and this is aperfect example of why indie rock is a movement, a way of life.....not just about bands that are unsigned.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 27, 2006, 04:18:58 pm
so i have a question.

since i'm the moderator, and i created the focus and direction of this forum, i'm curious.

is my own band "indie rock"

i'd like to hear some honest thoughts.  do i "practice what i preach"

http://www.thesecretclubhouse.com/

http://www.myspace.com/secretclub

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: starscream2010 on February 27, 2006, 04:30:33 pm
j.hall wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 15:18

so i have a question.

since i'm the moderator, and i created the focus and direction of this forum, i'm curious.

is my own band "indie rock"

i'd like to hear some honest thoughts.  do i "practice what i preach"

http://www.thesecretclubhouse.com/

http://www.myspace.com/secretclub




it is...
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 27, 2006, 04:56:24 pm
j.hall wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 16:18

so i have a question.

since i'm the moderator, and i created the focus and direction of this forum, i'm curious.

is my own band "indie rock"

i'd like to hear some honest thoughts.  do i "practice what i preach"

http://www.thesecretclubhouse.com/

http://www.myspace.com/secretclub




ok. I would say that it is. This is what I think of when someone says indie rock. but this is coming from the uninitiated
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 27, 2006, 05:01:21 pm
Quote:

i'd like to hear some honest thoughts. do i "practice what i preach"


yeah, it's definitely indie in a midwest sorta way.

interestingly, a lot of those KC/champaigne bands can sound pretty 'slick' sometimes, which might throw you off if you never saw any of those bands playing a dive with 30 other people..
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: Iain Graham on February 27, 2006, 05:49:56 pm
j.hall wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 21:08

ivan40 wrote on Sat, 25 February 2006 15:20

Anything that generates forward motion in music is cool with me.



that's an awesome attitude to have!  good post Ivan!

Quote:


morningstar wrote:
And I still want to know when music stopped being about talent.



we can all point the finger at autotune, beat detective, sound replacer, the ability to punch in, copy and paste, multi-track.  but all that is technology improving the speed at which we can do our jobs as engineers.


To me, the argument is how do you use the technology? Do you spend hours tuning a vocal to make it sound good, meanwhile sucking all the life out of it, when the guy can't even sing? Or do you slap autotune on a couple of lines to keep a great performance for the whole song?

I regularly loop sections of a song. Why spend forever pissing yourself and the player off dropping in endlessly when you can just grab the first chorus and drop it on the 2nd???

It's pointless not using the technology because of some kind of stigma attached with it. It's obvious when someone can play or not.

j.hall wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 21:08


the real answer is......as soon as music became a product that was mass marketed to a specific demographic.  from that point forward, it's been a slippery slope to simply feed the machine what it wants, regardless of quality.......it's all about quantity and that age old top seller......sex.

and this is aperfect example of why indie rock is a movement, a way of life.....not just about bands that are unsigned.


This is why I hated most of my university course. It was more orientated on the business people then us techies.

It was all why people will dress a certain way and buy a certain type of music.

For people who want to be A&R or publishing people, or whatever, it's great. I'm an engineer. It doesn't matter what the fuck it is, it's gotta sound good, or, more importantly, like the client wants it. I even told the lecturer that. She left me alone after that. Cool My job is done by the time someone decides which genre it is.

I did the course because I wanted to understand the business of music better. I do now. I just like it even less. Embarassed I also wanted a degree.  One year was painless enough.

I work for a studio in Scotland. I do whatever comes through the door. I like working with rock bands. Most of the techniques are based on that fact. It's just the best way of capturing anything for me. I started doing rock. That's why I hang out here. You guys talk my language.

A huge part of my workload is trad Scottish music. At least they can keep their instruments in good condition and can play, mostly anyways. Better than fixing the intonation on the 4th bass of the week.

To methough, putting music in a pigeon hole is bullshit.

It's music.

It either sucks or it doesn't.

I'm sure most of you guys feel the same. I accept that making a living out of the music you love and have devoted your life to changes things a bit. I guess this is more a fans topic than an engineers topic though. Very Happy

It is just music though. I try and capture what they're doing to the best of my abillity's.

Kinda went on a ramble there. Whoops. Sorry guys.

Iain

Edit to add that indie rock is the same but different over here, so I've got no clue about most of the bands ya'll are talking about.  

P.S. anyone know which track "Mr Beast" is on the Mogwai album of the same name? (Don't ask)
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: floodstage on February 27, 2006, 06:28:24 pm
j.hall wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 16:18

is my own band "indie rock"


I do think The Secret Club is Indie.  



However, my opinion isn't probably worth the electrons used to display it though as I often wonder if I know what indie rock is myself.

I asked my wife (who is a kick ass musician btw) and she said she thought indie meant your band isn't signed and you're selling your music yourself.  I think this is probably the most common description/perception of indie even though it's like calling a disease by a symptom's name.

If someone asks me, I try mis-direction, so I don't have to show my ignorance, and just say: "attitude, not the music, defines indie rock".  

Not giving a crap about talent, especially vocal talent, must also have something to do with it.  (I'm going to get killed for the following statement:) I think Fugazi is a poster child for not giving a crap about what people think.  If they had a singer that sang instead of yelling/screaming with little attention to tune, they'd be bigger than U2.  (Listen to the Destiny's Child/Fugazi mashup I posted a while back if you don't believe me)  I'd put good money down that Fugazi is well aware of this and that they continue to do what they do because that's what they want to do, and couldn't give a fu** about what record companies or anyone else cares.  

(After saying that, I'm sure my indie club application has been denied, shredded, burnt, and denied again for good measure!)
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: TheViking on February 27, 2006, 07:38:50 pm
There are only two kinds of music...   good music and bad music.

Having an opinion is a privelage.

We can all sit here and argue what is and isn't indie to us.   That's relative to our own personal prefrences and opinions.   J and I both like the Counting Crows and they are not considered to be 'indie'.   We just like them because we like them and we have our own personal reasons for liking them.

So, because we like a certain band or don't like a certain band, does that make us more or less indie?   I like Sunny Day Real Estate and Fugazi because I heard them and liked what I heard.   So, because I like those bands, does that make me indie...   apparently not...   I like other bands that are too mainstream and they take away my 'indie points''???  I think this is the confusion that MorningStar is getting at.

The Promise Rong and Sense Field played a show near me and I went to check them out with a friend back in the late 90's and I liked both bands.   I even dug Davy's whole lisp pitchy vocals...   because I believed every word coming out of his mouth.   He meant it and that's more important than anything to me IMO.

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 27, 2006, 09:27:02 pm
TheViking wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 19:38

There are only two kinds of music...   good music and bad music.

Having an opinion is a privelage.

We can all sit here and argue what is and isn't indie to us.   That's relative to our own personal prefrences and opinions.   J and I both like the Counting Crows and they are not considered to be 'indie'.   We just like them because we like them and we have our own personal reasons for liking them.

So, because we like a certain band or don't like a certain band, does that make us more or less indie?   I like Sunny Day Real Estate and Fugazi because I heard them and liked what I heard.   So, because I like those bands, does that make me indie...   apparently not...   I like other bands that are too mainstream and they take away my 'indie points''???  I think this is the confusion that MorningStar is getting at.

The Promise Rong and Sense Field played a show near me and I went to check them out with a friend back in the late 90's and I liked both bands.   I even dug Davy's whole lisp pitchy vocals...   because I believed every word coming out of his mouth.   He meant it and that's more important than anything to me IMO.




uh oh- I dont think your allowed in here...

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 27, 2006, 09:42:41 pm
TheViking wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 19:38

There are only two kinds of music...   good music and bad music.

Having an opinion is a privelage.

We can all sit here and argue what is and isn't indie to us.   That's relative to our own personal prefrences and opinions.   J and I both like the Counting Crows and they are not considered to be 'indie'.   We just like them because we like them and we have our own personal reasons for liking them.

So, because we like a certain band or don't like a certain band, does that make us more or less indie?   I like Sunny Day Real Estate and Fugazi because I heard them and liked what I heard.   So, because I like those bands, does that make me indie...   apparently not...   I like other bands that are too mainstream and they take away my 'indie points''???  I think this is the confusion that MorningStar is getting at.

The Promise Rong and Sense Field played a show near me and I went to check them out with a friend back in the late 90's and I liked both bands.   I even dug Davy's whole lisp pitchy vocals...   because I believed every word coming out of his mouth.   He meant it and that's more important than anything to me IMO.




So I guess we're not working on an indie rock record together??
I think it is, but what do i know?? Can a real rock record be indie-?
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: scottoliphant on February 27, 2006, 10:06:05 pm
what's a real rock record? hah
what color blue is the sky? how spicy is that curry?
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 27, 2006, 10:33:49 pm
scottoliphant wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 22:06

what's a real rock record? hah
what color blue is the sky? how spicy is that curry?



Led Zep II? Who's Next? Appetite for Destruction?
AIC- Dirt? Black Crowes- Southern Harmony? Foo Fighters One by One? Audioslave? Superunknown? Ten?

and the sky is sky blue- That was an easy one
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 27, 2006, 11:44:19 pm
TheViking wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 18:38

So, because I like those bands, does that make me indie...  


it would have, had you shut your mouth about journey and maintained your membership......IDIOT

counting crows are unbelievable writers.  grab any of their records and pick any song and i'll bet the vocal performance will give you goosebumps.  that band is my example of knowing when NOT to play.

anyway....this thread is derailing.

flood is right, the majority of "outsiders" just think indie rock is independent bands trying to "make it"

i'm completely uninterested in changing that popular opinion.  it matters very little to me what other people think, or what exactly "we" decide to call this "genre"

i know what i like, and i know what i don't.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: TheViking on February 27, 2006, 11:55:14 pm
so...   we're basically talking about a genre with no rules, boundaries, guidelines or any structure to speak of.   Yet some know what is indie and what isn't.   This logic is dizzying.

Also, at what point does a band like Death Cab for Cutie cease being indie?

When I was in high school, it was a really big deal when all of our favorite (dare I say 'indie') bands became mainstream.   REM will be my example as I was a huge fan even before Out of Time and Automatic for the People.   I remember seeing the band on the tour of the Monster record and friends of mine telling me that REM were 'sellouts' and all the fans at the show I was at were 'posers'.

This logic is also dizying and not worth my time to try to figure out.   Success and failure are two drastic opposites.   'Indie Rock' sounds like it's a genre rooted in glorified failure because as soon as you find success, you are disowned by the very people who got you there.

Dizying.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 27, 2006, 11:59:32 pm
TheViking wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 23:55

so...   we're basically talking about a genre with no rules, boundaries, guidelines or any structure to speak of.   Yet some know what is indie and what isn't.   This logic is dizzying.

Also, at what point does a band like Death Cab for Cutie cease being indie?

When I was in high school, it was a really big deal when all of our favorite (dare I say 'indie') bands became mainstream.   REM will be my example as I was a huge fan even before Out of Time and Automatic for the People.   I remember seeing the band on the tour of the Monster record and friends of mine telling me that REM were 'sellouts' and all the fans at the show I was at were 'posers'.

This logic is also dizying and not worth my time to try to figure out.   Success and failure are two drastic opposites.   'Indie Rock' sounds like it's a genre rooted in glorified failure because as soon as you find success, you are disowned by the very people who got you there.

Dizying.


wait wait wait... wasnt REM alternative???
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 28, 2006, 12:44:07 am
TheViking wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 22:55


Dizying.


you're just a sore loser for getting kicked out.

maybe the country "underground" will take you.  that seems to be the spot for all the ex-punk rockers these days.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 28, 2006, 09:53:31 am
Quote:

'Indie Rock' sounds like it's a genre rooted in glorified failure because as soon as you find success, you are disowned by the very people who got you there.


this is a stretch. fugazi's sold over a million records and you don't hear anyone screaming 'sellout'. same with sonic youth. some landmark indie records were even released on majors (drive like jehu, jawbox, at the drive-in, jawbreaker, etc). sure, there's always folks who'll cry 'sellout' over almost anything.. but in the long run it's the music that's judged.

people probably started 'abandoning' REM because they didn't like the direction they were going in.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: TheViking on February 28, 2006, 10:07:35 am
It may be a stretch...   I was making a pretty extreme statement.   The fact of the matter is in five pages of posts, no one has yet to answer the question MorningStar has asked.   We were almost getting somewhere when people started flexing the nuts of their indie rock knowledge by sharing the kinds of bands that were indie.   Unfortunately, you guys can't even all agree on that.   This thread loses me when bands like Death Cab for Cutie or Sigur Ros are said to be NOT indie but now At the Drive In IS indie.   Is the Mars Volta indie then?   If Jimmy Eat World had never released 'Bleed American', would they still be considered indie?   Is my mom indie?   If the Secret Club falls down in the woods, do they make sound???

Answer the questions!!!
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: garret on February 28, 2006, 10:26:49 am
I've always hated that "they're not indie anymore because" logic.   People always like to feel they're part of a clique, and drawing boundaries where the clique ends makes the insiders feel superior.

To me, there's something very punk about making great records even after you get a major label deal.

Yah, we can do the sm57 in someone's basement thing.  And if the music's good, we don't care what anyone says about the production values.  But we can also do the high-end studio thing with a 128 piece orchestra.   The music's still good.  It's the same value system, same innovative writing, with better tools.

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: scottoliphant on February 28, 2006, 10:28:11 am
Quote:

Led Zep II? Who's Next? Appetite for Destruction?
AIC- Dirt? Black Crowes- Southern Harmony? Foo Fighters One by One? Audioslave? Superunknown? Ten?

and the sky is sky blue- That was an easy one

you've totally missed my point. I'm just suggesting that it's all subjective. Someone just as easily could claim that any of the records above are not "real" rock records. Or ask you to define what "rock" is. But, you are probably just trying to rouse a few feathers and play devils advocate anyways to have a lively discussion, so i guess it's moot. noone here is going to be able to perfectly describe what "indie" is, at least not well enough to equip you with a measuring stick to go out and hold up next to xyz band. that's the beauty of music





Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 28, 2006, 10:43:33 am
is 'bitches brew' a jazz record? who was the first heavy metal band? are weezer emo? do these pants make me look fat?

not everything fits neatly into a category and that's not exclusive to indie rock. it's also not that interesting. there are a lot of common traits you find in indie rock (especially when talking about peoples' approach to music) and that is interesting imo.

i think plenty of people gave MorningStar genuine answers and all they got back were stubborn dissmissals and a slightly condescending attitude, so they quit trying.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 28, 2006, 10:56:15 am
floodstage wrote on Mon, 27 February 2006 17:28

If they had a singer that sang instead of yelling/screaming with little attention to tune, they'd be bigger than U2.


i had to think about this portion of your post for a while.  

i think you have practically nailed what the indie rock mindset is in a round about way.

fugazi could not have been huge.  they had and still have something very specific to say, and very specific to do.  neither of those goals/plans have anything to do with anyone thing in particular as far as market consumability.  they have never advertised, promoted a show, or pursued any sort of media attention to further promote their band.

their agenda has always been self serving.  sure, they make and sell records, they tour, they turn a profit.  yes they work hard at what they do, but i've never seen or heard of any member of fugazi trying to change people's lives'.  their music is deeply political, and deeply motivational, but if you talk to Guy, or Ian (which i have) neither of them preached to me.  to me, fugazi has always been about trying to get other people to think for themselves.

i think a few of their lyrics some up indie rock better then anyone of us can come up with.

"you will do what looks good to you on paper, we will do what we must"

"the tools they will be swinging, but we will not be beaten down"

"you are not what you own"

"Life is what you want it to be
So don't get tangled up trying to be free
And don't worry what the other people see
It's nothing."

"We draw lines and stand behind them
That's why flags are such ugly things"

"and if I stop to catch my breath
I might catch a piece of death"

"Bred in bone and finely honed
To always sell what we can't own"
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 28, 2006, 10:59:33 am
j.hall wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 16:58


1.    I hate labels.  music is music, art is art.  IMO, labeling it only draws lines, and puts things into boxes.  That behavior only creates static boundaries that inhibit creativity and expression.  However, without some sort of general reference we would have a really hard time communicating.  Thus labels come into play.  I did not coin the term "indie rock" nor, emo, garage, punk, screamo, hardcore, grindcore......etc......  Nor did I place certain ideas, sounds, concepts into the definition of "indie rock" or any of the other terms.  My use of that term is merely to communicate to others like me, where I’m coming from.  Unfortunately, saying "I’m an indie rocker" carries meaning with others like me.  It’s like telling a group of random people, "I’m a boy scout" then you end up weeding out all the other people that are not boy scouts and you can now hang out with like minded people.  So, I use this term for the purpose of communication.  The negative side of advocating its use I’ve already typed, and I accept those.



Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 28, 2006, 10:59:39 am
Fabricoh35 wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 21:37

Morningstar, I give you something to check out.  Go listen to Archers of Loaf (old) and then Crooked Fingers (new).  Same guys fronts both bands.

Let me know what you think.  I don't want to influence your thoughts so I won't say anymore.

Eric knew what was coming back on the Vee Vee album when he sang "the underground is overcrowded".


This was rather interesting. Suprising its the same guy. I'm not sure what to make of that. To me it sounds like 2 different guys.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 28, 2006, 11:33:56 am
TheViking wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 09:07


Answer the questions!!!


i'll answer them with a question.

describe to me what country music is.

pick up your pitch fork and torch for a cause that matters
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 28, 2006, 11:57:08 am
pg666 wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 10:43

is 'bitches brew' a jazz record? who was the first heavy metal band? are weezer emo? do these pants make me look fat?

not everything fits neatly into a category and that's not exclusive to indie rock. it's also not that interesting. there are a lot of common traits you find in indie rock (especially when talking about peoples' approach to music) and that is interesting imo.

i think plenty of people gave MorningStar genuine answers and all they got back were stubborn dissmissals and a slightly condescending attitude, so they quit trying.


Thanks for mentioning Bitches Brew, I've got that on now. Theres some great stuff on there. Yes its still Jazz (imo), just the start of something new. I'm going with Black Sabbath for the first heavy metal band. I'll stay out of the emo stuff and i dont know on the last one.

I really liked the answers from garret early in the thread. It still seemed to be about the music and the free expression of ideas.
The point that i think is being missed here and its the thing i struggle with, is the idea of this "secret club", and having to fit into a certain look or scene. If you play lead guitar on a cd your not indie. If you care too much about pitch your not indie. If you sell too many records, your not indie.
I like the whole idea of small labels, unsigned bands, regardless of the specific genre. I guess I'm off base with that, but its much more friendly isnt it?

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: scottoliphant on February 28, 2006, 12:05:33 pm
i think you are totally overthinking it.
it's not a secret club. it's just music. different people play different types of music. it's not an enigma code that needs breaking. you keep trying to apply rules to it, which would be hard for any type of music, and what a stressful way to enjoy music. you either get it or you don't, and you don't

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: MorningStar on February 28, 2006, 12:20:51 pm
scottoliphant wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 12:05

i think you are totally overthinking it.
it's not a secret club. it's just music. different people play different types of music. it's not an enigma code that needs breaking. you keep trying to apply rules to it, which would be hard for any type of music, and what a stressful way to enjoy music. you either get it or you don't, and you don't



I enjoy music with out any stress, thanks. I also "get it" pretty easily.

j hall wrote


fibes, xonlocust and i once spent many hours discussing this topic. we sorta came up with the analogy that indie rock, anymore, has become a secret society completely on accident.

perhaps not on accident.

a syndicate if you will.



Now I didnt say this as you can see. Those arent my words. So I'm just playing the hand I've been given.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: pg666 on February 28, 2006, 12:22:58 pm
Quote:

If you play lead guitar on a cd your not indie. If you care too much about pitch your not indie. If you sell too many records, your not indie.


guitar solos= dinosaur jr.

good singing, well, that's been covered.

by this point every sonic taboo has been covered (horns, strings, linn drums, concept albums, literally anything) in indie rock. the point (even if only idealistically) is that these people are making music because they must; not for popularity, money, critical acclaim, etc. that's the only common ground you'll find between all of the bands that were recommended.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 28, 2006, 12:30:58 pm
here's the bottom line.

indie rock as it exists is something that happened in time.  those of us who lived it (within the time line) fully understand what "it" is, and what it means.  those who want to know can only be given a rough outline or general run down of SOME of the ideas.  but unless you lived it, you can't really "get it".

i can sit with a recovering heroine addict and understand their pain, but i don't get it, as i've never lived it.

can you describe to me what the black panthers were?

no....you can give me a brief run down, but it was something that happened real time, and it can't just be explained.

i think the rock n roll world is fascinated by indie rock because of this.  it's like you all went to sleep one night while we stayed up and created a mystery.  you aren't really that interested in living it real time, but the human experience eggs on your desire to be "in the know".

i can't live that moment where i put metallica down and picked up fugazi for you.  i can't live, the countless times i went to all ages shows and raised my fist in the air to the pulsing sounds of what i thought was a revolution, for you.  i can't consume your life with fan-zines, basement record stores, hard to find 7"s, mail order catalogues from touch and go, and years of word of mouth communication prior to the internet, for you.

you want to know EXACTLY what indie rock is?

find a time machine, go back 12 - 15 years and live it with me, when it started.  then, and only then, will you fully understand.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: Fabricoh35 on February 28, 2006, 12:51:13 pm
MorningStar wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 10:59

Fabricoh35 wrote on Fri, 24 February 2006 21:37

Morningstar, I give you something to check out.  Go listen to Archers of Loaf (old) and then Crooked Fingers (new).  Same guys fronts both bands.

Let me know what you think.  I don't want to influence your thoughts so I won't say anymore.

Eric knew what was coming back on the Vee Vee album when he sang "the underground is overcrowded".


This was rather interesting. Suprising its the same guy. I'm not sure what to make of that. To me it sounds like 2 different guys.


My point in using those bands as an example was to show that vast different sounding things can both be "indie".  

So in my opinion then what is and isn't indie has little to do with the sound (in or out of tune vocals, solos, leads, effect pedals, banjos, 3 chord progressions or 40 chord progressions) but is more about the message and the purpose of the music.

Yes there will be a "look" and "style" that goes along with any "label" but not all people associated with that "label" fit that style or look exactly or at all.  Take the look of Pavement vs Built to Spill.  Similar?  Perhaps.  Different?  Perhaps.  Depends on the year, the week, the day.

So, again to me it is in the message and purpose of the music.  I'd say that at a certain point U2 would/could have been considered indie, but now based on their current message/purpose they are not at all indie.  Same with REM.  You can lose you "indieness" but it has less to do with sucess and more to do with a change of message/purpose.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: TheViking on February 28, 2006, 03:52:04 pm
j.hall wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 12:30


i think the rock n roll world is fascinated by indie rock because of this.  it's like you all went to sleep one night while we stayed up and created a mystery.  you aren't really that interested in living it real time, but the human experience eggs on your desire to be "in the know".

i can't live that moment where i put metallica down and picked up fugazi for you.  i can't live, the countless times i went to all ages shows and raised my fist in the air to the pulsing sounds of what i thought was a revolution, for you.  i can't consume your life with fan-zines, basement record stores, hard to find 7"s, mail order catalogues from touch and go, and years of word of mouth communication prior to the internet, for you.



You have an interesting way of romanticizing marketing.   Which is all you are really talking about here.

Understand that my questioning here is not in disrespect of the 'real' indie rock subscribers.   I have a deep respect for the genre as a whole.   I just get lost when music becomes less of the focus and starts moving into fashion, scenes, posers and sellouts.   Defining a band by their studded belts and chain wallets doesn't sound very educated...   or musical.

The reason I share this is because in my own scene here, bands are judged more on appearence than talent.   It's unfortunate.   Then the bands that actually have talent and find success get put down by the scene they are birthed out of because they 'sold out'.   This is where I am coming from in all this.

Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: scottoliphant on February 28, 2006, 04:19:46 pm
Quote:

You have an interesting way of romanticizing marketing. Which is all you are really talking about here.
is it marketing following the music or the music following the marketing (as you suppose)? I'd hazard to guess that fugazi 20 years ago was not that marketable but still impacted peoples lives to varying degrees of importance. Marketing follows trends, trends originate somewhere. Before we saw "Singles" and heard about "grunge" the NW was teeming with activity. The same could be said for any musical movement.


and one more thing
Quote:

Defining a band by their studded belts and chain wallets doesn't sound very educated... or musical.
this happens in every genre of music, hip hop, jam bands, country, etc etc
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: ridgeback on February 28, 2006, 04:39:06 pm
Being from the 80-90's Minneapolis scene, the "successful bands suck" syndrome was in full swing. Replacements, Soul Asylum, HuskerDu, Jayhawks, Golden Smog....all of which had their major label fly's and failures. Most of the "little guys" never made it. But those who did "sucked". Which was pretty ridiculous in itself. Those bands worked extremely hard and had very colorful roots in the scene which they basically created. Granted alot of those major label releases lost their oomph due to poor production and loss of energy in the songwriting process. Complacency? Maybe, who knows unless you were there.
When I was playing regularly and touring, everything was out of pocket. You payed for your tour costs, studio time, mastering, pressing, and hopefully a small "indie label" would see some potential and release it. It was a great lesson in DIY. I think thats where the true indie spirit lies. Indie labels, well we all know how many slutted to the majors but that's the game.
So "indie rock" = "fledgling rock"? Not that simple of course.
Again I turn back to the DIY process. There were tons of bands and labels which trudged along not giving a hoot what the industry wanted. And there still are some. The folks who don't give a f*ck about being "rockstars" for a year (which is the going rate it seems) in the major industry.
In this day of home studios and pressing options as well as internet music, again the majors are getting a run for their money and I for one like it.
My ought two
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: TheViking on February 28, 2006, 04:59:22 pm
scottoliphant wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 16:19

Quote:

You have an interesting way of romanticizing marketing. Which is all you are really talking about here.
is it marketing following the music or the music following the marketing (as you suppose)? I'd hazard to guess that fugazi 20 years ago was not that marketable but still impacted peoples lives to varying degrees of importance. Marketing follows trends, trends originate somewhere. Before we saw "Singles" and heard about "grunge" the NW was teeming with activity. The same could be said for any musical movement.


and one more thing
Quote:

Defining a band by their studded belts and chain wallets doesn't sound very educated... or musical.
this happens in every genre of music, hip hop, jam bands, country, etc etc



Just because it happens other places doesn't make it more or less acceptible.

Shouldn't we be striving for more as musicians and music lovers???

I'm a musician.   Not a scenester or a male model.

I'm not suggesting that things will change or that we should start some kind of crusade either.   I'm just challenging people to think about why they believe what they believe.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: j.hall on February 28, 2006, 05:16:08 pm
my wife and i saw this whole 2 hour documentary on PBS a few years back.  it was focused on how the "mainstream" looks to the underground for it's next big marketing move.  it wasn't pro underground, or pro mainstream.  it was simply a brilliant look into a concept this "reporter" had.  the thought was that all trends start with out any marketing or anything, they just simply happen.  then the mainstream business men see their 14 year old kids doing this and they dash off and mass market it to make some serious cash.

i tried to get a copy of that program but couldn't.

anyway, the piece was really profound.  they used a handful of bands and showed how their hometowns built them up and supported them, then when it got larger, their home towns abandoned them.

basically the model looked like this.

kids come up with new trend, music, fashion, whatever.  

mass market grabs hold.

original kids either ditch it cause it's mainstream, or they have already moved on to something else.

in the end of the film, the point derived from all this was simple, and i loved it.

"the underground will always be the place the trends begin.  whether they are ditched or just play themselves out makes no difference.  the mainstream market is always playing catch up."

whether you not you think my posts are marketing dribble is meaningless to me.

most humans want to be part of something that is unique and special.  something they can claim their own.  it creates identity, and avoids "same-ness".  

when i say you had to be there, i mean it.

when shudder to think ad jawbox both left the most talked about indie label ever (dischord records) for major labels within a few months of each other, you simply had to be there at that time to understand how earth shattering that was.

bands don't leave dischord for a major.......it was unheard of.

keep in mind we're talking the mid 90's here.  major labels were gobbling everything up that could possibly bare the name "alternative", stripping the cool away, and cramming it down your throat.....FORCE FED.

so as the scene buzzed with rumors of heresy, both of those bands proceeded to crank out two of the most influential indie rock records to date........ON A MAJOR LABEL

so not only did they do the unspeakable at that time, but they delivered something that was not only unheard of on a major, but they re-defined indie rock right then and there.

BAM.....the whole game changed.....literally over night.

shudder to think - pony express record
you won't hear anything like it now, then, or ever in the future.

jawbox - for your own special sweetheart
see above comment.

just a bit before that, drive like jehu dropped yank crime on interscope and rocket from the crypt dropped scream dracula scream on interscope.  the indie world almost crashed to it's knees right in the first 5 years it was birthed.......

helmet went from AmRep to Interscope and cranked out Meantime.

the list goes on...........

if you were there, and were burried in it, you would know what these records did.

they changed lives, they broke down barriers, they redefined a fledgling genre of music......

don't trivialise something i've put my whole life into, by calling it "marketing".
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: NelsonL on February 28, 2006, 06:00:36 pm
  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415039495/qid=1141165785/s   r=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-5344283-9821654?s=books&v=glance&am p;am p;am p;n=283155

Here's a well recommended book along the lines of what J.'s talking about. I haven't read the whole thing-- so no quizzes allowed. Anyway it's not specifically about this debate, but I think a lot of what he lays out could apply here.

I'll give everyone a month or two to read it before I check this excellent thread again
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: scottoliphant on February 28, 2006, 06:46:15 pm
Quote:

shudder to think - pony express record
I can't say enough good things about this record. way ahead of it's time. still sounds like it's ahead of it's time. blows me away. like a surrealist painting done with music. Saw the band tour for this in 94? or 95? don't remember. but it was incredible. this record turned me on to other other bands like failure, jawbox, chavez and the like.

Quote:


Just because it happens other places doesn't make it more or less acceptible.

Shouldn't we be striving for more as musicians and music lovers???

I'm a musician. Not a scenester or a male model.

I'm not suggesting that things will change or that we should start some kind of crusade either. I'm just challenging people to think about why they believe what they believe.


Music is most young peoples first foray into individualism. They can instantly differentiate themselves from their peers, their parents, a whole social group. It's only natural that fashion falls into the mix shortly thereafter as another device to stand out and explore yourself and what you like at a young age. I personally missed the fashion boat (ask my wife), and don't see why it's necessary to ever wear anything other than a pair of comfortable jeans and a t shirt. Most of the musicians i know (myself included) don't dress their scene "part". I remember thinking in my old band when the skinny kids with tossled hair and really tight t shirts started showing up in droves, our band was starting to get somewhere (even though i didn't get it).
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: TheViking on February 28, 2006, 07:43:36 pm
scottoliphant wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 18:46


I personally missed the fashion boat (ask my wife), and don't see why it's necessary to ever wear anything other than a pair of comfortable jeans and a t shirt. Most of the musicians i know (myself included) don't dress their scene "part". I remember thinking in my old band when the skinny kids with tossled hair and really tight t shirts started showing up in droves, our band was starting to get somewhere (even though i didn't get it).


I agree with you 150% there!   That is definately where I'm at...   and plan to stay.
Title: Re: New to the forum and looking to start trouble..... Indie Rock???
Post by: Daniel Asti on March 24, 2006, 01:28:52 pm
Indie ( band signed to independant label )
Rock  ( general style of music )

The term was (is) used to define bands who don't have a major label, or polished studio sound, either by choice or budget.

Bands on labels like SubPop (i.e. Nirvana) were obviously considered Indie.  Bands like The Pixies on 4AD were considered Indie as well because the labeal was not owned or operated by a Major.  Bands like Pearl Jam could be considered Indie in sound but were signed to a major.  At that time I never remember personally considering them indie or alternative in any way which brings me to my next point:  

It's all subjective but "lot of WHOAs in the chorus", "last band that was just on the radio"  and "Twenty Somethings" sounds like "All American Rejects" or newer "Fall Out Boy" or "Hawthorn Heights" which are big studio - big budject - big production - big marketing - MAJOR LABEL POP ROCK.  Maybe this is what you're talking about?  

When you're critisizing an artists' and producers' lack of originality, especially those who have had commercial success, it totally opens yourself up to the same critique.  

Are you just a jealous Joe / can't stand others success?  

Are you bitter having been repeatedly rejected?

Are you just a lazy SOB who loves to complain?

Are you just not talented?

Talented but unlikeable with no networking skills?

(Or is it the era) - "It just aint like it used to be, man"?

Since it's hard to know EXACTLY who or what you are whinning about my only suggestion is to buy a radio with a power button if you can't find a station to your liking.