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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Reason In Audio => Topic started by: ALLEN WRENCH on January 27, 2006, 11:22:20 pm

Title: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: ALLEN WRENCH on January 27, 2006, 11:22:20 pm
The argument of “What’s better, Analog or workstation?” seems to be endless and I really never care if I see another thread on this topic.  But in this particular thread, lets just say that, theoretically, digital HAS won out and is the superior format.

Now in the category of ROCK… what’s the best single song, songs OR record you’ve ever heard that’s been recorded on ANY type of workstation.  
I’m interested in distorted ROCK guitars and acoustic ROCK drums.

THIS IS NOT A TRICK.  I’m NOT going to come back and say… “SEE!  It’s NOT as good as... [SOME SONG] from [SOME YEAR]!"

I simply would like to know what is possible to achieve on a DAW by the BEST of the BEST.  I’m just doing some listening research for my own purposes and would like to know what all you engineers and producers with the advanced EARS think the best digital rock is.

Any and all input is greatly appreciated… and if you HAVE to deviate from the rock category, that’s OK.

Please name the song, artist and record.  I’m planning on buying them to listen to for a while.


- ALLEN WRENCH -


Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Pingu on January 28, 2006, 07:51:34 pm
Im pretty sure Symphony X did there albums digital.

Pretty compressed but it gets ya rockin.

Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Greg Youngman on January 28, 2006, 08:23:01 pm
Wow... I'm not for SURE these are digital, but I think they were.  With that disclaimer, I'll list a few of my favorites.

Little Feat - from "Let It Roll" on, sound damned good.
Aerosmith - Some of that stuff sounds good.
Toy Matinee - Ooops! That's analog!

I'll try and think of some more...

Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: KingDaddyO on January 29, 2006, 02:28:49 pm
Greg Youngman wrote on Sun, 29 January 2006 01:23

Wow... I'm not for SURE these are digital, but I think they were.  With that disclaimer, I'll list a few of my favorites.

Little Feat - from "Let It Roll" on, sound damned good.
Aerosmith - Some of that stuff sounds good.
Toy Matinee - Ooops! That's analog!

I'll try and think of some more...





YEAH buddy - always a thrill to see someone spread the word about the late great Kevin Gilbert (Toy Matinee). The songwriting/engineering/performances on this release never grow tiring to these ears.
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: maxdimario on January 30, 2006, 08:06:52 am
for rock, I don't think it's possible to get the same live feel effect as you do on tape.

I'd like to be proven wrong with an example.
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Ronny on January 30, 2006, 11:31:16 am
maxdimario wrote on Mon, 30 January 2006 08:06

for rock, I don't think it's possible to get the same live feel effect as you do on tape.

I'd like to be proven wrong with an example.



Prove it to your self Max. Can you listen to any cd and automatically know if it's recorded digital or analog?
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Bob Olhsson on January 30, 2006, 12:29:52 pm
My experience has been that it's very easy to over-process well played electric guitars and kill the vibe. It's also my experience that this isn't an analog or digital thing although converter quality matters big-time the moment you begin applying signal processing.
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Ronny on January 30, 2006, 01:04:24 pm



The best rock recorded on any workstation was "Stars And Stripes Forever", recorded and mixed in Pro Tools at 16 bit, by John Sousa in 1906.  
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: maxdimario on January 30, 2006, 02:32:23 pm
I usually can spot the digital sound.

It's no use theorizing, where's the example?

Just one digital rock album (guitars etc.) and I will buy it tomorrow to check it out.
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: minister on January 30, 2006, 06:58:05 pm
Ronny wrote on Mon, 30 January 2006 12:04

The best rock recorded on any workstation was "Stars And Stripes Forever", recorded and mixed in Pro Tools at 16 bit, by John Sousa in 1906.  
wasn't that a shave and a hair cut, 2 bit recording?   Laughing  Laughing
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Etch-A-Sketch on January 30, 2006, 08:10:38 pm
ALLEN WRENCH wrote on Fri, 27 January 2006 20:22

The argument of ?What?s better, Analog or workstation?? seems to be endless and I really never care if I see another thread on this topic.  But in this particular thread, lets just say that, theoretically, digital HAS won out and is the superior format.

Now in the category of ROCK? what?s the best single song, songs OR record you?ve ever heard that?s been recorded on ANY type of workstation.  
I?m interested in distorted ROCK guitars and acoustic ROCK drums.

THIS IS NOT A TRICK.  I?m NOT going to come back and say? ?SEE!  It?s NOT as good as... [SOME SONG] from [SOME YEAR]!"

I simply would like to know what is possible to achieve on a DAW by the BEST of the BEST.  I?m just doing some listening research for my own purposes and would like to know what all you engineers and producers with the advanced EARS think the best digital rock is.

Any and all input is greatly appreciated? and if you HAVE to deviate from the rock category, that?s OK.

Please name the song, artist and record.  I?m planning on buying them to listen to for a while.


- ALLEN WRENCH -





Hi Allen,

You'll have to be a little more specific... do you mean mixed in the box?  or do you mean using the workstation just like you would a tape machine and still mixing through an analog console?  Please specify.

Technically if you are talking about mixing in the box then you aren't just comparing tape to DAW, you're comparing tape AND console to DAW and DAW mix engine.

I would have to say most albums done in the recent years have all been DAW through a console.  I don't have specific numbers... I would imagine there is some way to look that up on billboard's website.  Usually in the Magazine they list albums currently in production, who's producing them, the studio they are working out of, and the medium they are working on... the also list who mixed the album and what medium they used to mix it.  I'm not sure where it would be on the Billboard site but there might be a way to search for that...

Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Eric Rudd on January 31, 2006, 12:53:16 pm
minister wrote on Mon, 30 January 2006 17:58

wasn't that a shave and a hair cut, 2 bit recording?   Laughing  Laughing


My nominee for "post of the year."

Eric
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Ronny on January 31, 2006, 12:54:32 pm

I second that nomination.
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: ALLEN WRENCH on January 31, 2006, 11:47:04 pm
OK, this is exactly what I DID NOT want to happen with this thread.  I don’t care if it’s all IN-THE-BOX, with an SSL, 16 bit PT, 64bit Cakewalk, ADAT’s and Mackies, Logic and a HUI, what ever.  

Really guys… use all the OTHER threads for all the dumb discussions regarding anything other than NAMING a song or two that was tracked with converters.  ANY DAW used in ANY way… EXCEPT tracking on tape and then digitizing.

I’m looking to put together some songs to hear what’s POSSIBLE to do with the digital format.  Although it may NOT BE possible to do good rock drums on digital, I’d like to hear the best that's been done so far.

With all the experts here, you’d think a few of you guys would be able to name off a few good rock songs tracked with converters.

Stop your talkin, start your rockin.


- Allen Wrench -
international Superstar
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Pingu on February 01, 2006, 03:18:02 am
Since you got mad at us im not contributing anymore.







































Just jokes

i got nothing more to add.
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Malcolm Boyce on February 01, 2006, 10:14:17 am
Maybe I'm not the only one who doesn't consider tracking digitally, using a "workstation", the word used in the TITLE of your thread.  If I track to DA98s through a console is that a workstation?

If you mean digital, use the word.  Don't try and be fancy just to impress us losers.
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Eric Rudd on February 01, 2006, 10:20:42 am
ALLEN WRENCH wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 22:47

OK, this is exactly what I DID NOT want to happen with this thread.  I don’t care if it’s all IN-THE-BOX, with an SSL, 16 bit PT, 64bit Cakewalk, ADAT’s and Mackies, Logic and a HUI, what ever.  

<snip>

 ANY DAW used in ANY way… EXCEPT tracking on tape and then digitizing.

I’m looking to put together some songs to hear what’s POSSIBLE to do with the digital format.  

<snip>
Stop your talkin, start your rockin.


- Allen Wrench -
international Superstar


Sorry that you're getting your upset, but "DAW" pretty much is implying 'in the box' these days. (except for hybrid users) So your question above is confusing from a terminology POV.

So as I understand it....  are you looking for songs that are done "in the box" with a "DAW?"

Or are you looking for songs that are "digital" that can be ADAT, 3348, DAW, etc? I think you'll get many more responses if you don't limit it to DAW-only projects.

Eric
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Greg Youngman on February 01, 2006, 11:50:32 am
Little Feat - "Let It Roll"

Where's George when we need him?  That record kicks ass.  I think it classifies as "rock".  It's not country.  It's not jazz.  I use it for comparison all the time.
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded in DIGITAL format
Post by: ALLEN WRENCH on February 01, 2006, 12:58:21 pm
You know, I re-read my last reply and maybe I do sound a little PISSY.  Apologies to everyone.  I’ve been wound a little tight for the last few days because I just got sentenced to court ordered rehab and I don’t think that’s going to be fun.  On top of that, My JH-16 is so fucked up I’ve decided to stop using it after finishing my current project. What I’m trying to do now is figure out what I’m to do, mostly for drums, from now on.  Frankly digital, for rock, is looking pretty bleak.  

For this thread, I’m trying to target some music for audio research… listen to a variety of music that’s been tracked digital, pick out some styles that I like, and then interact with the producer and/or engineer of that or those works.  So, with this in mind, WHAT may be wrong with something, or WHAT might be possible is not really of any concern.  What I’m interested in is WHAT has been done so far... with the digital format

As far as saying workstation (DAW), I was using that term to NOT exclude anyone that does not use ProFools.  I suspect that if you’re a Radar, Innuendo, or Logic guy you may be getting annoyed with PT being synonymous with digital.  Not trying to offend or act uppity with that.  As a matter of fact I personally consider my engineering skill to be a touch BELOW novice.

And don’t get me wrong, I would greatly appreciate any and all help… BUT lets keep the tread on topic!

My records suck, that’s why I’m here.


- ALLEN  
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Invisible Member on February 01, 2006, 03:32:03 pm
ALLEN WRENCH wrote on Fri, 27 January 2006 20:22

The argument of “What’s better, Analog or workstation?” seems to be endless and I really never care if I see another thread on this topic.  But in this particular thread, lets just say that, theoretically, digital HAS won out and is the superior format.

Now in the category of ROCK… what’s the best single song, songs OR record you’ve ever heard that’s been recorded on ANY type of workstation.  
I’m interested in distorted ROCK guitars and acoustic ROCK drums.

THIS IS NOT A TRICK.  I’m NOT going to come back and say… “SEE!  It’s NOT as good as... [SOME SONG] from [SOME YEAR]!"

I simply would like to know what is possible to achieve on a DAW by the BEST of the BEST.  I’m just doing some listening research for my own purposes and would like to know what all you engineers and producers with the advanced EARS think the best digital rock is.

Any and all input is greatly appreciated… and if you HAVE to deviate from the rock category, that’s OK.

Please name the song, artist and record.  I’m planning on buying them to listen to for a while.


- ALLEN WRENCH -





Well without getting into too much rhetorical questioning.

For starters I would say listen to Slipknot's "Subliminal Verses 3".

Tracked to ProTools and just about every song fits the rock genre. Its a fairly recent recording using readily available bits and peices. Some of the best drums Ive heard in awhile. IMO

You can also listen to Racer-X's last three albums. Otari console tracked into RADAR, sounds pretty rockin to me. I believe Paul Gilbert does alot hardware. Drums and guitar heavy music, if this isn't convincing digital can rock you caint be convinced period.

Steve Vai's "Alive in a Ultra World", tracked to ProTools on a G3 Mac, edited/mixed/overdubbed on ProTools, API legacy console.

I've used ProTools since 2000, and own Samplitude. I've used Vegas and Cakewalk products as well. Small variations of a theme, your normal workflow might like one more than another. Its highly personal. There are plenty of folks using hybrid systems so hang on to the reel to reel unless you sell it to dampen your impending purchases.

Take a listen to these 3 albums, all these bands have top rate drummers.



Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded in DIGITAL format
Post by: djui5 on February 01, 2006, 07:25:33 pm
ALLEN WRENCH wrote on Wed, 01 February 2006 10:58


My records suck, that’s why I’m here.


- ALLEN  





I don't mean to derail this thread, but what sucks about your records?

It might not be a "gear fix".
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Ronny on February 01, 2006, 08:15:17 pm
Eric Rudd wrote on Wed, 01 February 2006 10:20

ALLEN WRENCH wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 22:47

OK, this is exactly what I DID NOT want to happen with this thread.  I don’t care if it’s all IN-THE-BOX, with an SSL, 16 bit PT, 64bit Cakewalk, ADAT’s and Mackies, Logic and a HUI, what ever.  

<snip>

 ANY DAW used in ANY way… EXCEPT tracking on tape and then digitizing.

I’m looking to put together some songs to hear what’s POSSIBLE to do with the digital format.  

<snip>
Stop your talkin, start your rockin.


- Allen Wrench -
international Superstar


Sorry that you're getting your upset, but "DAW" pretty much is implying 'in the box' these days. (except for hybrid users) So your question above is confusing from a terminology POV.

So as I understand it....  are you looking for songs that are done "in the box" with a "DAW?"

Or are you looking for songs that are "digital" that can be ADAT, 3348, DAW, etc? I think you'll get many more responses if you don't limit it to DAW-only projects.

Eric




That's what I was thinking too. It wouldn't surprise me if there were more charted tunes mixed on 02r's in the 90's than Pro-Tools or other single DAW type platforms. James Taylor for one used a couple on some of his material. Not exactly AW's style of music but good sounding recordings for digital. Look for Eliot Scheiner material, he uses a DM2000 on a lot of his stuff, records a lot of people and always sounds good.  
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Etch-A-Sketch on February 01, 2006, 09:43:23 pm
Ok Allen, first I'd say anything done by Richard Mouser.  (you know Rich don't you?  I think we met once at his studio?)

Other than that, here's a partial list taken from billboard that digidesign compiled and posted on their website.  Digidesign obviously removed any non-digi references but contact billboard for more current (and complete) versions of this list.  They have a list like this in every billboard issue towards the end of the magazine.  


http://www.digidesign.com/news/credits/archive/2003/2003.cfm
http://www.digidesign.com/news/credits/archive/2002/2002.cfm
http://www.digidesign.com/news/credits/archive/2001/2001.cfm
http://www.digidesign.com/news/credits/archive/2000/2000.cfm

Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: maxdimario on February 02, 2006, 01:06:26 pm
Everytime a thread like this comes up, you get a lot of explanations, but few real world examples.

Slipknot sounds 'caged in'.

Racer-x doesn't have oodles of depth either..recording-wise.

Steve-vai. I haven't heard the album, but I doubt that the recording can aim to do more than showcase his guitar playing, so that doesn't really count.

the problem lies in the fact that rock recording, unlike pop, r&b, guitar hero rock etc. needs to capture feel and raw energy.

it also has to be able to keep the sounds distinct.. even though guitars and vocals are often pushed to the limit in the mid-band frequencies.

excellent rock albums, with potential mass appeal?
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Invisible Member on February 02, 2006, 05:01:14 pm
Nice response maxdimario.

Or was that a blatant insult of my personal tastes?  

Got any examples yourself?

Irregardless of ones personal tastes on a genre, the fans are buying the records and the bands are making money.

Which is the point in the end.

I personally would not expect to hear raw with any DAW or Board with and a Rack.

Plug-in-itis and Boutique-rack-mosis have more to do with the raw sounds not being there than the abilities of the bands themselves or thier musical depth of field.




Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: minister on February 02, 2006, 09:25:32 pm
Eric Rudd wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 11:53

minister wrote on Mon, 30 January 2006 17:58

wasn't that a shave and a hair cut, 2 bit recording?   Laughing  Laughing


My nominee for "post of the year."

Eric
Ronny wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 11:54


I second that nomination.

gosh fellas  Embarassed

i TRY  Razz
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: maxdimario on February 03, 2006, 01:36:23 pm
Quote:

Nice response maxdimario.

Or was that a blatant insult of my personal tastes?

Got any examples yourself?


...err

every recording made up to the mid 80's?

...even the hardcore punk records of the early 80's recorded in one day in cheap studios sound bigger...considering the lack of musicianship, totally distorted guitars, and anti-aesthetic writing.

we're looking for the best digital rock album..

Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: Invisible Member on February 03, 2006, 02:57:31 pm
maxdimario wrote on Fri, 03 February 2006 10:36

Quote:

Nice response maxdimario.

Or was that a blatant insult of my personal tastes?

Got any examples yourself?


...err

every recording made up to the mid 80's?

...even the hardcore punk records of the early 80's recorded in one day in cheap studios sound bigger...considering the lack of musicianship, totally distorted guitars, and anti-aesthetic writing.

we're looking for the best digital rock album..




LMBBO

I missed the word "best"

.... for subliminal reasons I sure.

Is there such an animal is such a subjective world?

Is it digital...

or plug-in-itis or Boutique-rack-mosis that is the reason...

SmackieDat killed Analog...

I have an E16 in the closet...

I never left the 80's...

Most of my gear is pre 1984 with a few exceptions in the mics...


Your are descrbing me as if you knew me Wink
Quote:

considering the lack of musicianship, totally distorted guitars, and anti-aesthetic writing.


Im working on a solo project for myself where the ground rules are no more than 2 takes per song and no overdubs. Lots of dynamic mics and nearly no limiting. No cutting, no pasting, no splices and completely non-pop. The songs are a little long and suck too.

Uhhh.... you're not a domestic spy are you?




Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded in DIGITAL format
Post by: doc willie on February 03, 2006, 03:08:05 pm
ALLEN WRENCH wrote on Wed, 01 February 2006 10:58

 I’ve been wound a little tight for the last few days because I just got sentenced to court ordered rehab and I don’t think that’s going to be fun.  . . . My records suck, that’s why I’m here.




Connection?

Get back to us in 28 days and a month.
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: NoWo on February 03, 2006, 06:43:55 pm
Hi guys,

I
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: minister on February 04, 2006, 11:47:26 am
NoWo wrote on Fri, 03 February 2006 17:43


The situation in Europe is completely different. Never heart of "Techno"? This music ruled Europe the last 10 years and was completely done in the box. As a result nearly all conventional studies vanished. Although I
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: NoWo on February 04, 2006, 04:24:21 pm
Hi minister (of what???),

what is hybrid other than digital? Some analog is always included starting at the microphone and nearly always ending at the speakers.
And "any" music isn
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: minister on February 05, 2006, 12:42:25 pm
NoWo wrote on Sat, 04 February 2006 15:24

Hi minister (of what???)
...fancy noises  Razz

by hybrid, i meant something along the lines of tracking drums on tape, transferring to digital, tracking more & editing digital, than mixing on a desk or summing box and summing analog.  use analogue eq's and comp's etc.  or some combination there of...  i don't mean merely analog mic & pre to get it into the DAW.

i personally don't have a 2" or a desk, so most of my stuff is in the box.  and, yes, i just finished a pop/rock album, ITB, and a whacky, kinda avant quasi-classical thing in the box and i am very happy with the sound.  but, i have used my Dangerous 2 BUS to mix rock and other styles and i liked the results with that too.

but i have a long-time engineer friend who did 2" and an anlog desk, but then was forced into DAW mixing for about 2 years (because of moving his studio and practicalities) and is now set up again with his neotek desk.  and he MUCH prefers mixing (especially) rock stuff on the desk and printing it off to 1/2".  and yes, his machines are aligned and his stuff sounds fantastic!
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: NoWo on February 05, 2006, 04:16:45 pm
Ya,

I thought you meant that by hybrid.

Of course it is another thing to mix on real desk. A while ago I send 16 DAW audio outs into my old desk and mixed a little bit...old skool, free style. AAHHH, what a feeling, 100mm fader, I had totally forgot how cool that is.
And yes, if you have 64 EQs, all with real knobs, at hand you mix a lot faster and because everything is going so fast you mix with much more accuracy. All this MUST result in a better sound no matter what brand the mixer is.
Unfortunately you will never get as loud and simultaneously smooth with pure analog than it is possible with digital. Although digital is said to be hard there are enough possibilities to get the sound smooth.

But I see in general we are brothers in mind.

Keep on rockin Dutchman.
BTW I
Title: Re: The BEST rock recorded on ANY workstation
Post by: minister on February 05, 2006, 04:27:59 pm
NoWo wrote on Sun, 05 February 2006 15:16

Keep on rockin Dutchman.
BTW I