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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Budget? Budget? We Don't Got No Steekin' Budjet => Topic started by: Dave Martin on December 16, 2005, 04:01:29 pm

Title: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 16, 2005, 04:01:29 pm
Maybe it's just me, but I like records to sound like they 'could' be performed live by the artists. So the '50 background vocal tracks' or '9 guitars playing stupid noodly parts which are all on the record' thing kinda pisses me off when I hear it. But a relatively new thing that's happening  - even in country music - is that multiple takes of the drum parts, played very differently,  are being comped together, so that the drummer seems to go from brushes to sticks with no time in between. That seems to be cheating.

I've been on many, many sessions where the song seemed to require this sort of thing, but it's always been done live by the drummer; perhaps starting by playing with brushes with sticks under their arms or somwhere so that they could change the timbre of the kit to suit the sections. I've even done sessions where we would stop at the point that the brushes are done and do a gang punch with the drummer playing with sticks. But somehow, simply choosing between diferent playlists seems like cheating.

Or is it just me? Anyone feel like the ability to actually PERFORM the songs should play any part in the production process?
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Fibes on December 16, 2005, 04:26:24 pm
Dave,

I'm not sure this is very new. I remember the cutting of endless verses, chorus' and whatever on 2" and the "best" stuff getting spliced up. Today it's easier than ever and yes in the quest for Hyper-reality the linear process of recording is being thrown away. That said, my best/favorite projects were done live/all at once or with minor overbubs.

People are cheating and that's why i stopped going (blind) to concerts because most of the bands just don't cut it.



Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 16, 2005, 04:29:16 pm
In country music? Damned right! Country should not be allowed to change. It's never much changed for the better. I like country/blues. I like it plunking down, and telling me about the woman that did it wrong, and the drinkin'.

You are talking about that country/rap stuff!

Our Father, who is rarely in Nashville, how'd you let that slip by? Are you only cardioidpotent?

That all said (poorly) there are certain songs, then there are certain productions. I say it depends on the song.

I have been blown away by the live recreations of things I never thought would fly, and I have fallen down laughing over a lame attempt, likely more often.

Then again, most of the tracks I have loved, translate a whole different way from recorded, to performance.

For instance, Zeppelin doing Celebration Day. The studio version has all these things, like a row of first chair familiars, playing a symphonic of undiscovered instruments.. and then live, it just rips your face off.

My, my, my I'm so happy...

I am upset about country music productions. I like Hank Williams.


M
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: bilco on December 16, 2005, 05:02:02 pm
I noticed that on a U2 cut recently; it seemed like they started out fairly unplugged with a subtly brushed snare and acoustic guitars, then by the end, there's a full kit and the band is a veritable Wall 'O Guitars.  You don't realize it's amping up because it's pretty gradual.  That is fine if you're U2 and you can come close to pulling it off live..  

They can of course.  And I love that song.... the name excapes me.  "and it's you that I see in the mirror....., sometimes we can't make it on our own"?  I guess that's the title.

What I DON'T like is artists, usually local solo acoustic singer/songwriters (of which I am one) who are comped and tuned so much that you think they can actually sing and play from listening to their CD...... until you hear them live and realize they can't even tune the guitar, much less play it. Our guitar player calls them "no singin'/no playin' sum bitches." It's like false advertizing to me.  

On the other hand, I guess I are one too. I don't have perfect pitch and I hear it on playback, just can't seem to hear it recording the take.

From a recording vs. performing point of view, I am always torn about this.... There are times I want to record all the parts I hear in my head, no matter how overproduced it might end up sounding.  There is a side of me that wants to triple track my lead vocal, comping and Autotuning the life out of it so that there are "no mistakes."  I play in a pretty cool request/copy band in Austin and I have been a bass player for 34 years, so the thought of a song without a locked in rhythm section is foriegn to me. As a singer/songwriter though, I will probably almost only ever be heard solo in coffee shops, opening for house concerts and such.  There is a part of me that wants to do the Gillian Welch & David Rawlings 2 vocals and  2 guitars inspired and passionate, head on till you get it right thing and what you hear on CD is what you're gonna hear live, sparse perfection!  The other side of me with a PTLE rig and Otto Toon wants to fill up all 24 tracks.  I think I need a producer...... Jeckyl and Hyde here....... um, what was the question?

bilco
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 16, 2005, 06:53:44 pm
Musical cosmetics, and surgery.

Nice tits, U2!


M
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Frob on December 16, 2005, 08:16:11 pm
call me old fastioned, but i like the small natural ones.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 16, 2005, 09:03:44 pm
Fibes wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 15:26

Dave,

I'm not sure this is very new. I remember the cutting of endless verses, chorus' and whatever on 2" and the "best" stuff getting spliced up. Today it's easier than ever and yes in the quest for Hyper-reality the linear process of recording is being thrown away. That said, my best/favorite projects were done live/all at once or with minor overbubs.

People are cheating and that's why i stopped going (blind) to concerts because most of the bands just don't cut it.




And you know, I don't mind (and regularly use) the 'punch your way to success' method of recording; it's just hearing a drum track that I KNOW can't be done live that pissed me off.

But then, it seems that a lot of my all time favorite records were live recordings - Humble Pie's "Rockin' the Fillmore", The Meters "Live on the Queen Mary", Deep Purple's "Live In Japan", Ella Fitzgerald in Berlin... I LIKE great live performances.  
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 16, 2005, 09:09:37 pm
DivideByZero wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 15:29

That all said (poorly) there are certain songs, then there are certain productions. I say it depends on the song.

I am upset about country music productions. I like Hank Williams.
M


Yep - and even though I thought about(and complained about) it, that's not to say that I won't do it on the next project that I produce.  Very Happy

But still...

And I like hank's songs, too - but I prefer the sound of Red Foley's records from the same time.  
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 16, 2005, 09:12:11 pm
bilco wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 16:02

I noticed that on a U2 cut recently; it seemed like they started out fairly unplugged with a subtly brushed snare and acoustic guitars, then by the end, there's a full kit and the band is a veritable Wall 'O Guitars.  You don't realize it's amping up because it's pretty gradual.  That is fine if you're U2 and you can come close to pulling it off live..  



I know what you mean - but it sounds like it's subtle enough that it sounded 'natural'. It's when it's not that it bugs me...
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: rnicklaus on December 16, 2005, 09:29:39 pm
Dave Martin wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 18:03



But then, it seems that a lot of my all time favorite records were live recordings - Humble Pie's "Rockin' the Fillmore", The Meters "Live on the Queen Mary", Deep Purple's "Live In Japan", Ella Fitzgerald in Berlin... I LIKE great live performances.  



Speaking of Humble Pie, one of my faves when I was a kid, I had the first 2 albums (imports on Immediate) Safe as Yesterday Is (right?) and Town and Country, if I have both titles correct and they were much more acoustic blues (like stones country honk) than they were live.

I saw every show of theirs I could when I was in high school.

A few years back I was meeting with Framton about a possible project and I think I floored him with what I knew about all their history.

To see Steve Marriot with his goose neck mic stand and all his energy, HE was my hero.  Add Frampton's style - he wasn't just another blues riff minor boring player - and wow.  Greg Ridley on bass and vocal (he was from spooky tooth) as well (much trading verses) and damn if I can't remember the drummer's name right now.

The idea that their shows were so much rockier than their records, was awesome to me.  It was like the record on steroids.

Marriot and Framton each had 2 half stacks, one using the 6 10 cabs the other the 4 12.  Bass was a mashall and an acoustic 360, if I remember that far back.

Too bad they didn't have video or film of those shows.

They would start the set with 4 Day Creep.  I still have never seen a rock band more powerful or better. Simple, tight, LOUD, energy like never before - they killed.

Others had pop hits and therefor got bigger - Hey Zepplin had Good Times Bad Times on POP radio, but nobody had a better live show than Humble Pie.

Rant off.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: compasspnt on December 16, 2005, 10:57:18 pm
HP drummer was Jerry Shirley.  Nice guy; worked with him once.

PS:  Marriot was awesome!
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 16, 2005, 11:31:18 pm
This thread is not about food.

I have 30 days in my playlist.


M
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 17, 2005, 12:27:42 am
I loved "30 days" back in the day. And I once started a band just so we could do 4 day creep (and Highway Star). That, to me, is what 'rock music' was all about. But that might mean that we're old...
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: maxim on December 17, 2005, 12:42:42 am
i reckon, anything goes

recording is not live, like film isn't theatre

one of the best things i discovered (by accident), while making the last record, was that you can comp not only different takes and different instrument setups, but entire recording sessions

i had the basic tracks tracks for a song, which changed between the tango and the waltz during the chorus, and the drummer, although great with the waltz, just couldn't get the tango right

by the time i had accepted that it wasn't good enough, i was in another country, so rerecording the session was out of the question

so, i found a great spanish gypsy guitar player and we cut the verses together

then it was just a simple case of adding the two, and now it's the track most people seem to like listening to

for the next record, i plan to do more of it, but this time, with preparation

imo, tape flattens performane, so any tricks that prick up the interest are fair go

as long as they don't simultaneously prick the ballon of suspension of disbelief

which, is what, i guess you (dave) are talking about

another question, is would it be the same if you didn't have engineers ears?


ps i just reread the post, and realised how naive i am, of course, people must have cut between sessions before, it's just that i never had thought it before

Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: rnicklaus on December 17, 2005, 01:30:15 am
compasspnt wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 19:57

HP drummer was Jerry Shirley.  Nice guy; worked with him once.

PS:  Marriot was awesome!


Thanks!
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: rnicklaus on December 17, 2005, 01:32:29 am
DivideByZero wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 20:31

This thread is not about food.

I have 30 days in my playlist.


M


Clem Clempson replaced Framton on that record, i'm pretty sure.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 17, 2005, 02:22:46 am
I had Marriot's 3 pickup Les Paul for a time, he had to get the middle pickup from another guitar he put it in.

I kind of wish I had that now.


M
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Revolution on December 17, 2005, 07:48:12 am
Well to me cheeting is almost every live album since Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous album.
Why do bands release live albums/DVD's when everything but the drums are overdubbed.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tim Halligan on December 17, 2005, 09:00:12 am
Revolution wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 20:48

Well to me cheeting is almost every live album since Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous album.
Why do bands release live albums/DVD's when everything but the drums are overdubbed.


It's been going on this way for decades...sadly.

There are some real ones around...at least they sound real. Clapton live in Japan from the late 70's, or early 80's springs to mind...

The ultimate "cheat" live album is reputed to be Supertramp Live in Paris. Allegedly the only thing kept from the gig was the crowd...and that was sweetened as well...


Cheers,
Tim
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 17, 2005, 10:23:28 am
maxim wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 23:42

i reckon, anything goes


as long as they don't simultaneously prick the ballon of suspension of disbelief

which, is what, i guess you (dave) are talking about

another question, is would it be the same if you didn't have engineers ears?




It is, actually - I listen to these sorts of tracks and all i can think of is 'They couldn't do that live'. On the other hand, there are records that couldn't be done live that don't 'prick the ballon of disbelief; An Oasis record comes to mind that seems to keep adding guitars in every section until it's absolutely huge. And I thought that was cool...

And I don't know if it would bug me if I wasn't listening with ears that have spent 35 years listening to drummers.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 17, 2005, 12:28:29 pm
god at least the drums are live!

m
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: hargerst on December 17, 2005, 01:17:15 pm
Seems to me that we're talking about two different groups of people here.  To make an analogy (God, I love analogies), it's like a conversations between a photographer (realism) and an artist (impressions).  Both camps have valid points and it's possible to appreciate both disciplines on their own merits.  I enjoy looking at Ansel Adams prints, but I enjoy Van Gogh too.  Both very different interpretations of the world around them.

Seems like a similar situation here.  We can record something in the studio that can be played live (photograph), or we can create a sonic painting (art) which can only be enjoyed on the medium used (a CD in this case) and never intended for live performance.

In this instance Dave, you're really asking if it's okay that the artist uses a different color blue for the sky.  I'd say, fine - if that's how the artist wants us to see the sky.

With all the new tools at our disposal, I'm not sure where we fit in these days; part photographer, but at times, artistic collaborators as well.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: James Duncan on December 17, 2005, 02:38:14 pm
I have to say that I used to be of the "photography camp" (to use Harvey's analogy), but I find myself now thinking that whatever works is the mantra of the day.

Obviously, a lot of songs are either not going to be played live, or just played badly since a lot of parts are missing.

As an engineer however, it seems like my job to produce the best product possible, and if that is from an inspired live performance, then great! But, if things require a wall of guitars and 5 different drum kits, then so be it as well.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Brian Jansen on December 17, 2005, 05:46:05 pm
hargerst wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 10:17

Seems to me that we're talking about two different groups of people here.  To make an analogy (God, I love analogies), it's like a conversations between a photographer (realism) and an artist (impressions).  Both camps have valid points and it's possible to appreciate both disciplines on their own merits.  I enjoy looking at Ansel Adams prints, but I enjoy Van Gogh too.  Both very different interpretations of the world around them.

Seems like a similar situation here.  We can record something in the studio that can be played live (photograph), or we can create a sonic painting (art) which can only be enjoyed on the medium used (a CD in this case) and never intended for live performance.

In this instance Dave, you're really asking if it's okay that the artist uses a different color blue for the sky.  I'd say, fine - if that's how the artist wants us to see the sky.

With all the new tools at our disposal, I'm not sure where we fit in these days; part photographer, but at times, artistic collaborators as well.



I don't really mind when a recording is something that can't be done live.  I prefer it when live versions of a song are different then the CD versions anyway.  I mean I can stay home and listen to my CD for free.  Why pay to hear the some thing somewhere I can't be naked?  Razz  Even if it is possible to play the recorded version live.  

A band playing live and a band making a record do seem to be connected.  To me they are very different types of art.  But I think that bands who make the best records are the ones that have spent years playing live and working on their sound.  Just like I think the best film actors are the ones who can do it on the stage too.  

I really like playing guitar in my home and recording it but I have no interest in playing live.  I just don't enjoy it.  
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 17, 2005, 08:18:43 pm
Just go to a 'modern diva' show.. it *is* the record, with goofy dancing...

Well, all modern divas, except for Junior Brown..


M
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: maxdimario on December 17, 2005, 09:04:16 pm
Quote:

Others had pop hits and therefor got bigger - Hey Zepplin had Good Times Bad Times on POP radio, but nobody had a better live show than Humble Pie.



to understand where led zeppelin got some of their concepts, you've gotta hear Steve Marriot singing with the Small Faces.

most notably whole lotta love, which had a big influence from the SF cover of You Need Lovin' as far as the singing and loud electrics.

I think I read that Marriot used to see Plant coming to Small Faces shows in his pre-zep days. Sounds like it.

Plant did develop his own style very well, of course...

Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: compasspnt on December 18, 2005, 12:32:56 am
Which would you rather hear by The Beatles...

Twist And Shout

or

Strawberry Fields?
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 18, 2005, 02:09:50 am
compasspnt wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 23:32

Which would you rather hear by The Beatles...

Twist And Shout

or

Strawberry Fields?

Twist and Shout.

Err... does that make me a bad person?
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 18, 2005, 02:14:00 am
hargerst wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 12:17

 In this instance Dave, you're really asking if it's okay that the artist uses a different color blue for the sky.  I'd say, fine - if that's how the artist wants us to see the sky.



I certainly see your point, Harvey... On the other hand, I much prefer Rembrandt to Van Gogh, and I've probably complained to someone or other about Vahn Gogh's use of colors, too...  Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: maxim on December 18, 2005, 04:29:26 am
really, twist and shout?

i guess you must be a naturalist

you do work in nashville, right?
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: bilco on December 18, 2005, 09:30:24 am
A lot of my favorite snippets of band performances are live:

Yes: "Yours is No Disgrace" - Bill Bruford's drum breaks! actually all the songs off the Yes album live are killer

The Who Live at Leeds: All of it!

Joni Mitchell Miles of Aisles: All of it again!

Phil Keaggy: Check out the live version of "Shouts of Joy" on Time Volume 2, which I think has only 1 live cut other than this one - best loud as death monster guitar tone (Marshall?) and great drumming, vintage Keaggy guitar solos too,  go out on that limb, cut half way through it and  pull it off!

bilco
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 18, 2005, 03:06:45 pm
Dave Martin wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 02:09


Twist and Shout.

Err... does that make me a bad person?


No, to be a bad person, you'd have to act out in some way.. like dancing to it, in news socks, on a wooden floor.


M
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 18, 2005, 06:36:00 pm
maxim wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 03:29

really, twist and shout?

i guess you must be a naturalist

you do work in nashville, right?


I am kind of a naturalist, though I'm usually not nekkid outside... Oh, wait - that wasn't what you meant.

I just prefer the higher energy of the early Beatles. But remember that I think Humble Pie was one of the all time great live bands...
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 18, 2005, 06:37:17 pm
bilco wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 08:30


Joni Mitchell Miles of Aisles: All of it again!

bilco


Ooh, if you liked that, try Shadows and Light.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: maxim on December 18, 2005, 07:36:25 pm
dave wrote:

"I am kind of a naturalist, though I'm usually not nekkid outside... Oh, wait - that wasn't what you meant."

who sez?
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Revolution on December 18, 2005, 09:07:16 pm
I remember an interview with ex Bangles singer Susanna Hoffs who claimed in her solo album that she was nude when se did her vocals.
So I gather if se didn't sing nude live then she would have been cheeting right.
I know id be asking for my money back.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: maxdimario on December 19, 2005, 04:44:12 am
performing live to tape, like on strawberry fields, isn't the same as what's going on now.

even the beatles themselves degenerated as they spent too much time in the studio.

the 8 track beatles sounded worse than the 4 track beatles.

if you had to have one album to know what they were really about it would be one of the early ones with minimal overdubbing.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: bilco on December 19, 2005, 12:14:12 pm
I agree about the Beatles.  Those earliest recordings, like "Meet the Beatles", were marathon recording sessions and you can hear it in Lennon's vocal on some of the rockers.  I can't remember how many hours that session was, but it was brutal.  It captures the energy though and everything that is so cool about a really good band hitting on all cylinders at the same time.  As much as I love the other extreme, like the Yes Fragile album, live or as close as you can get to live is hard to top.  

I hate being isolated from the drummer by a pane of glass and listening in headphonse is just strange; I can't get past it. I really don't like to overdub the rhythm guitar and vocals separately; I play and sing differently when I break it down than I do when I am just playing and singing at the same time.

I am really tempted to find someone who would be willing to record my singer/songwriter stuff with 1 omni mic and everyone standing around in a circle, moving in closer to the mic for solos.......  It would no doubt capture my less than perfect vocals, but if the band is happening, it captures the fun!

bilco
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Fibes on December 19, 2005, 12:26:07 pm
bilco wrote on Mon, 19 December 2005 12:14

I am really tempted to find someone who would be willing to record my singer/songwriter stuff with 1 omni mic and everyone standing around in a circle, moving in closer to the mic for solos.......  It would no doubt capture my less than perfect vocals, but if the band is happening, it captures the fun!

bilco


Practice and prepare that way and do it.

The pre-pro makes up for the lack of post...
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: maxim on December 19, 2005, 08:19:13 pm
bilco wrote:

"I hate being isolated from the drummer by a pane of glass and listening in headphonse is just strange; I can't get past it. I really don't like to overdub the rhythm guitar and vocals separately; I play and sing differently when I break it down than I do when I am just playing and singing at the same time.

I am really tempted to find someone who would be willing to record my singer/songwriter stuff with 1 omni mic and everyone standing around in a circle, moving in closer to the mic for solos......."

you can have the best of both worlds if you set up right

when i did my record, mike stavrou had me(vox/rthm gtr), the drummer and the bass player sitting in the same room

the vox30 sat in the kitchen, and the bass amp in the bathroom

the final isolation was fantastic, except for the vocal mic, but it was always going to be a scratch (i find it hard to put 100% concentration into 2 activities, so the rthm gtr was the priority on the day

we were wearing headphones, but you could certainly feel the kick and see the drummer's hands, and, besides, mike's headphone mix already sounded like a record!
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Roadster on December 20, 2005, 04:20:35 pm
Seems like it's cheating? Interesting thread.

Multitrack recording is cheating.
Sequencing is cheating.

If there had been laws against it, would the music scene or musicians be any different today? I think so.

These are pretty much my thoughts also:

hargerst wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 10:17

Seems to me that we're talking about two different groups of people here. To make an analogy (God, I love analogies), it's like a conversations between a photographer (realism) and an artist (impressions). Both camps have valid points and it's possible to appreciate both disciplines on their own merits. I enjoy looking at Ansel Adams prints, but I enjoy Van Gogh too. Both very different interpretations of the world around them.

Seems like a similar situation here. We can record something in the studio that can be played live (photograph), or we can create a sonic painting (art) which can only be enjoyed on the medium used (a CD in this case) and never intended for live performance.

In this instance Dave, you're really asking if it's okay that the artist uses a different color blue for the sky. I'd say, fine - if that's how the artist wants us to see the sky.

With all the new tools at our disposal, I'm not sure where we fit in these days; part photographer, but at times, artistic collaborators as well.

And another view:

I don't really mind when a recording is something that can't be done live. I prefer it when live versions of a song are different then the CD versions anyway. I mean I can stay home and listen to my CD for free. Why pay to hear the some thing somewhere I can't be naked?  Even if it is possible to play the recorded version live.

A band playing live and a band making a record do seem to be connected. To me they are very different types of art. But I think that bands who make the best records are the ones that have spent years playing live and working on their sound. Just like I think the best film actors are the ones who can do it on the stage too.

I really like playing guitar in my home and recording it but I have no interest in playing live. I just don't enjoy it.

Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 20, 2005, 05:35:24 pm
Playing live never lasts long enough, I want to do 8 hour shows.

Todd Rundgren made an album in front of an audience. It sounded the same live, as recorded.. they could play it again.. anytime.

I wish they would not.


M
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: rwj1313 on December 20, 2005, 06:09:46 pm
hargerst wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 12:17

or we can create a sonic painting


You really shouldn't tempt J.J. like that!
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: rwj1313 on December 20, 2005, 06:17:48 pm
Damn that Les Paul,

Because of him we are all cheaters
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 20, 2005, 11:36:06 pm
DivideByZero wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 16:35

Playing live never lasts long enough, I want to do 8 hour shows.

M


Trust me - you don't want to do an 8 hour show. At least you won't want to do it twice...  Shocked

The longest gig I ever did was 13 hours. The last 3 were kinda painful (I was playing acoustic bass - with no amplification).
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Roadster on December 21, 2005, 11:02:16 am
Quote:

Damn that Les Paul,

Because of him we are all cheaters

Smile
I stumbled into the recording process after many years of the band thing. Taking that little snapshot of yourself as a player soon becomes an addiction.

It came as almost a revelation to me that I could cheat like a s.o.b. and it simply didn't matter if I were caught!
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 21, 2005, 12:02:37 pm
Dave Martin wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 23:36


(I was playing acoustic bass - with no amplification).




heh... the Lance Armstrong of bass.


M
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: maxim on December 21, 2005, 07:16:37 pm
plugging in would be cheating, no?

i admire your purism, dave
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: maxdimario on December 21, 2005, 07:29:01 pm
Quote:

Damn that Les Paul,

Because of him we are all cheaters


except that if he made a mistake he'd have to start over again.

we can do it note-for-note.

those dang punch-ins! they ruined musicianship!
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Dave Martin on December 22, 2005, 10:48:36 am
maxim wrote on Wed, 21 December 2005 18:16

plugging in would be cheating, no?

i admire your purism, dave


Nah, it was a walking around gig - there was no pa available. And the singers got beat up more than I did.
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: Tidewater on December 22, 2005, 01:41:04 pm
I know there are more singers I would like to beat, than actually have been beaten.

Oh yes...


M
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: maxim on December 22, 2005, 08:53:25 pm
dave wrote:

"And the singers got beat up more than I did."

well, you had a weapon in your hands
Title: Re: Seems like it's cheating...
Post by: tmoney on December 29, 2005, 01:16:25 pm
I don't agree. I think you have to do what you can to make the recording of the song as good as possible. Some songs will sound better if there's noodley crap all over that can't be performed live, others will sound better if they're, in fact, recorded live. Don't restrict yourself or the artist in NOT recording some additional parts that come about in the process. That's probably more "artificial" than creating a recording that can't be duplicated live.

Having a record that can't be performed live is a problem, but that's the bands problem-- they're duty is to come up with a good show. You're duty is to make a great recording.