Post by: E.P. on February 21, 2007, 07:20:41 PM
I've drawn out a diagram of what I was planning to do.
I'm in a Townhouse with drywall walls, cinder blocks between houses.
The treatment is for the inside acoustics mostly - not to stop sound carrying.
I was thinking about using 2' x 4' x 4" Rock wool covered with burlap. One in each corner, and three on the wall in front of the console, and three on the ceiling above the console.
Some specific questions I'm still tring to solve:
• There is a small bit of back wall behind me, maybe 12 ft back. I was thinking a diffuser would be good there.
• I only have treatment in the wall corners, not the ceiling corners. Do I need to address that?
• I'm wondering if I need three basstraps on the facing wall, and three on the ceiling - would two do?
• The monitors (Mackie HR 824) will be very close to the wall on Sound Anchors. I'm concerned it's too close, but the 38% rule sort of pushes me there.
What do you guys think of this plan?
Quote from Ethan.
Post by: matucha on February 21, 2007, 08:30:02 PM
tables... a bit too much of them and placed asymetricaly
the treatment behind the speakers does not address the places where you (likely) get your 1st reflection (you have a gap there)
you'll still have to put absorbtion or diffusion on the sidewalls in the back, you have too much of the bare wall and it could "ring".
what are these black curved symbols? doors? if so, why is there the hall? how are you going to use it? if you leave it without treatment it is going to color the room (or reverb characteristics). Why don't you use it as a mashine room or why don't you use it for extending a booth space? well the proportions of the booth then wouldn't be perfect, i know, but it is just a suggestion...
Post by: E.P. on February 21, 2007, 08:55:03 PM
This studio is also use to do design work, so the table to the left is for the Computer -also used in the studio.
The hall leads to a bathroom. The curved things are doors.
Since we'll be moving in a few years I don't want to do any major construction, I'm looking to put up treatment that I can take down.
Post by: jimmyjazz on February 22, 2007, 01:37:16 AM
Post by: J.F.Oros on February 22, 2007, 02:21:15 PM
Post by: Ethan Winer on February 22, 2007, 02:36:48 PM
> three on the wall in front of the console, and three on the ceiling above the console. <
The front wall is not as important a reflection point as the rear wall or the specific reflection points on the side where you have curtains. Curtains are okay in a pinch, but ideally you'd put better absorption there. In this case "better" is defined as absorbing to a low enough frequency to be useful.
> There is a small bit of back wall behind me, maybe 12 ft back. I was thinking a diffuser would be good there. <
Sure.
> I only have treatment in the wall corners, not the ceiling corners. Do I need to address that? <
Yes! It's impossible to make any room perfectly flat and with no modal ringing. So the more bass traps you add, the closer you'll get. This is another reason to consider thicker absorption at the side wall reflection points. If nothing else, it adds yet more bass trapping into the room.
> I'm wondering if I need three basstraps on the facing wall, and three on the ceiling - would two do? <
Two are fine for two channels. If you plan to mix surround you'll need to also cover the center speaker reflection point, plus the additional side wall reflection points.
--Ethan
Post by: E.P. on February 22, 2007, 03:44:30 PM
| Ethan Winer wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:36 |
The front wall is not as important a reflection point as the rear wall or the specific reflection points on the side where you have curtains. Curtains are okay in a pinch, but ideally you'd put better absorption there. In this case "better" is defined as absorbing to a low enough frequency to be useful. Two are fine for two channels...additional side wall reflection points. --Ethan |
So If I understand what you, Matous and Justinian are saying, I haven't figured out my reflection points properly, bottom line.
The corners are OK, but I need to read up on how to find reflection points and position the front wall, ceiling and side wall absorbtion there. Therefore killing both reflections and providing bass traps.
Then I can use the same broadband absorbers to kill flutter echo in corners, and also increase the bass traping.
BTW, the reason I thought I would use curtains on the right side is because there are curtains on the left over the window, and I thought that would make it even on both sides.
Post by: Ethan Winer on February 23, 2007, 03:37:07 PM
> I need to read up on how to find reflection points <
Look here:
http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm
http://www.realtraps.com/rfz.htm
> BTW, the reason I thought I would use curtains on the right side is because there are curtains on the left over the window, and I thought that would make it even on both sides. <
Your thinking is correct. Symmetry is very important, But so is absorbing early reflections to a sufficiently low frequency!
--Ethan
Post by: E.P. on February 23, 2007, 04:34:28 PM
| Ethan Winer wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 14:37 |
> BTW, the reason I thought I would use curtains on the right side is because there are curtains on the left over the window, and I thought that would make it even on both sides. < Your thinking is correct. Symmetry is very important, But so is absorbing early reflections to a sufficiently low frequency! --Ethan |
So do you think I would be better off with one side having a trap, and the other curtains, or curtains on both? It could be a problem having both sides with traps, as that is a window we use.
Post by: E.P. on February 23, 2007, 10:48:06 PM
I think the gear on the console top might be an issue for reflections (it's in a rack in two bins on either side.) I'm wondering if I should move it into the rack space under the console. I would rather not do that if I don't have to, though.
Post by: Ethan Winer on February 24, 2007, 01:52:57 PM
> So do you think I would be better off with one side having a trap, and the other curtains, or curtains on both? It could be a problem having both sides with traps, as that is a window we use. <
Another possibility is to make/buy a very thick curtain. If you got a thick stage type curtain and backed it with 1 inch thick cotton batting, that will be good for both sides and will also look nice.
--Ethan
Post by: E.P. on February 24, 2007, 02:38:01 PM
| Ethan Winer wrote on Sat, 24 February 2007 12:52 |
Gil, > So do you think I would be better off with one side having a trap, and the other curtains, or curtains on both? It could be a problem having both sides with traps, as that is a window we use. < Another possibility is to make/buy a very thick curtain. If you got a thick stage type curtain and backed it with 1 inch thick cotton batting, that will be good for both sides and will also look nice. --Ethan |
Thank you!! Excellent idea!
Do you think the gear in racks on top of my table is an issue? I could rack it in the lower racks, but I kind of like having it up top, since I would be twiddling Reverb and compressor settings with my head ducked down.
Post by: Tom C on February 24, 2007, 04:35:04 PM
My (so far) best solution is a gobo which I move in front
of the window when needed.
Tom
Post by: E.P. on February 25, 2007, 09:47:57 PM
| Tom C wrote on Sat, 24 February 2007 15:35 |
BTW, I've got the same problem with a window like you. My (so far) best solution is a gobo which I move in front of the window when needed. Tom |
Cool, Tom, that sounds like a good idea, too.
I think I might try the bulked up curtains first, and go to the gobo if that doesn't work like I would like it to.
Post by: Ethan Winer on February 26, 2007, 05:50:09 PM
| Gil1 wrote on Sat, 24 February 2007 14:38 |
Do you think the gear in racks on top of my table is an issue? |
Probably.
Me, I've been totally in the box for 5 years or more, and I've never looked back.
--Ethan
Post by: E.P. on February 26, 2007, 06:27:34 PM
| Ethan Winer wrote on Mon, 26 February 2007 16:50 | ||
Probably. Me, I've been totally in the box for 5 years or more, and I've never looked back. --Ethan |
Are you suggesting I sell my Distresors?
Actually, I thought about it when I heard about the SSL Duende.
Post by: franman on March 01, 2007, 10:34:31 PM
Keep the gear.. (but not on the table in front of the monitors).. The short reflections off that stuff is totally destructive to not only your mid range response, but to imaging, stereo depth, etc...
Remember, think of all that stuff that is in "the near field" as a mirror.. If you can "see" the reflection of your speakers in the mirror, than you should move it!! Plain and simple!
Post by: jfrigo on March 02, 2007, 02:27:31 AM
| franman wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 22:34 |
Having a few choice pieces of good ol analog is what makes it all come together.. I know it's not the forum for this discussion, but don't you guys agree.. |
Agreed all around; can't eliminate the gear yet IMO. Acousticly speaking though, you do need to be mindful where you put it.
Post by: E.P. on March 02, 2007, 10:06:52 AM
In the past my Monitors were on the top of those racks, so I wasn't getting reflections I think. But they were so close, so I wasn't following the 38% rule I saw at Ethan's.
So I realized that I would have to get stands and put the monitors on them, allowing them to be further back.
I guess I'm wondering where you guys put the outboard gear you have to tweek (Compressors, Reverbs)? I would have to duck down to tweek them, and so my ears wouldn't be in line with the tweeters. Or does that not matter as much once you get the acoustics right, for short periods of time?
Post by: jfrigo on March 02, 2007, 12:01:26 PM
| Gil1 wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 10:06 |
I guess I'm wondering where you guys put the outboard gear you have to tweek (Compressors, Reverbs)? I would have to duck down to tweek them, and so my ears wouldn't be in line with the tweeters. Or does that not matter as much once you get the acoustics right, for short periods of time? |
Try low, angled racks off to the side. Check out my mastering room at promastering.com to see some short side racks that work. Sterling, Argosy and other studio furniture companies make some similar beasts. They're simple enough that you can make them custom as we did for mine. They're out of the way for the most part, but still easy to tweak. The angle means you don't need to bend over like you do for a vertical rack.
Post by: Ethan Winer on March 02, 2007, 05:56:50 PM
> Having a few choice pieces of good ol analog is what makes it all come together <
I agree that a touch of intentional distortion can help "glue" a mix together, and I like that affect too. But there are lots of ways to add subtle distortion, and you don't need the expense and inconvenience, for lack of a better word, to get that. By expense I mean $4,500 for high end toob gear, and by inconvenience I mean having to give up the huge feature of ITB mixing where you click a button and the mix you hear is printed to tape. Versus having to go out through a mixer losing your DAW automation.
Sorry guys.
Now see what you did!
--Ethan
Post by: E.P. on March 02, 2007, 09:58:02 PM
| jfrigo wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 11:01 |
Try low, angled racks off to the side. Check out my mastering room at promastering.com to see some short side racks that work. Sterling, Argosy and other studio furniture companies make some similar beasts. They're simple enough that you can make them custom as we did for mine. They're out of the way for the most part, but still easy to tweak. The angle means you don't need to bend over like you do for a vertical rack. |
Those do look nice!
I could use one of those, and that would do for me.
But I also notice you have small angled bays on the console. Do those hold a few pieces of rack gear also?
I don't have too much that I need to get my hands on. Maybe lower
bays for the console would do.
I would like to make them custom, but what did you use for the mettle frames?
Post by: franman on March 03, 2007, 09:10:41 PM
This way, reflection off the gear will (normally) not hit your ears. It may reflect into your waste area, but that's better than in your ears (always).
Looky what I started!!!
Post by: E.P. on March 03, 2007, 09:35:33 PM
Thanks for all the help, everyone. I'll pop a revised version up latter.