Post by: j.hall on September 08, 2008, 09:42:46 PM
i'm starting to track more guitars, and cut more vocals.
it also seems that i might be doing more drum tracking.
guitars and vocals are happening here in the mix room (also my house where two toddler boys run around)
so, i'm looking into the Grendel Dead Room speaker isolation cabinet for guitars.
this will allow me to cut guitars any time the client wants without waking my kids up.
any one use one? or the randall isolation speaker?
i'm also starting to wonder if it isn't a good idea to put together a small rack (or box) to send with my clients that cut tracks on their own.
i'm thinking a good mic pre, good converter, maybe a mic. this will ensure that i at least get a better signal path from them.
thoughts on that?
any one have experience with the sherman filter bank? i need to explore a hardware device that can easily do the bleeps and bloops. maybe i should just get reason?
and finally, tracking guitars here, i'm thinking about adding some guitars.
i have three tele's all with P-90s. i probably need a les paul, or at least a gibson of some kind, and probably a P-bass.
pedals?
Post by: marcel on September 09, 2008, 01:24:56 AM
| j.hall wrote on Mon, 08 September 2008 18:42 |
so, i'm looking in my crystal ball and seeing some current trends that aren't going away in my work. i'm starting to track more guitars, and cut more vocals. it also seems that i might be doing more drum tracking. guitars and vocals are happening here in the mix room (also my house where two toddler boys run around) so, i'm looking into the Grendel Dead Room speaker isolation cabinet for guitars. this will allow me to cut guitars any time the client wants without waking my kids up. any one use one? or the randall isolation speaker? |
Build a box with 2x4 walls/floor/ceiling, plywood screwed and glued to both sides. Fill the wall cavities with silica sand. Hinge one side. Carpet the interior. It'll be heavy as s**t (like 1500lb - no second floor locations!) but it'll isolate like nobody's business. Doubles as a safe. If you want, I can draw you some plans... (Seriously)
| Quote: |
i'm also starting to wonder if it isn't a good idea to put together a small rack (or box) to send with my clients that cut tracks on their own. i'm thinking a good mic pre, good converter, maybe a mic. this will ensure that i at least get a better signal path from them. thoughts on that? |
| Quote: |
any one have experience with the sherman filter bank? i need to explore a hardware device that can easily do the bleeps and bloops. maybe i should just get reason? |
| Quote: |
and finally, tracking guitars here, i'm thinking about adding some guitars. i have three tele's all with P-90s. i probably need a les paul, or at least a gibson of some kind, and probably a P-bass. |
| Quote: |
pedals? |
I think I just spent a whole bunch of your money.
Hope that's what you wanted. Other than the API (I have their pre's and Apogee converters), I regularly use all these things and they serve me well.
Post by: SingSing on September 09, 2008, 02:36:30 AM
I have one of the quad modular filterbanks (4 x sherman in a big box basically) and I think it does a wonderful sound mangling job. I disagree a bit with the previous poster that it lacks versatility (at least compared to other filters). It has a very unique and recognizable sound, still I never get tired of twisting those knobs.
Perhaps looking into a small modular would do the trick? Kind of like Frusciante? I think there's a rather nice article about it in TapeOp a couple of months back.
Take care,
Stefan
SingSing
Post by: NelsonL on September 09, 2008, 04:00:06 AM
Reason is really useful and could certainly take care of electronic sounds. While perhaps not "the best" at anything, it's very versatile and can do a great many useful things in a pinch (click tracks that don't annoy, passable keys and synths, loops etc.)
I'd agree that the API A2D looks really appealing at that price point, my attempts to rent one never worked out so I haven't used it yet.
Before I left I was really enjoying the Heil PR-30 and the Chandler TG-2 on heavy guitars, although not always together per se.
As for the Grendel, I presume it will make everything sound like SDRE.
Post by: grantis on September 09, 2008, 06:16:27 AM
| NelsonL wrote on Tue, 09 September 2008 03:00 |
Reason is really useful and could certainly take care of electronic sounds. While perhaps not "the best" at anything, it's very versatile and can do a great many useful things in a pinch (click tracks that don't annoy, passable keys and synths, loops etc.) |
Yes, the sounds that come with Reason are passable.
But when you start getting into extra ReFills, the sounds become REALLY good. I own the piano refill and it sounds fantastic, FAR better than the piano sounds that came with it.
come on J, REASON!!!!
Post by: NelsonL on September 09, 2008, 07:27:01 AM
| grant richard wrote on Tue, 09 September 2008 03:16 | ||
Yes, the sounds that come with Reason are passable. But when you start getting into extra ReFills, the sounds become REALLY good. I own the piano refill and it sounds fantastic, FAR better than the piano sounds that came with it. come on J, REASON!!!! |
Yes, the Piano refill is pretty great. I still think the stock piano is better than the onboard sounds in at least 75% of the junk people show up to sessions with though. I think I may have a crappy keyboard hex on me.
Post by: Fibes on September 09, 2008, 09:26:02 AM
Those boxes don't do it for me, too limiting and (this is a BIG statement)most times I'd rather use a good simulation.
Yeah, I said it, here are my .02:
1. Track the guitars with "Eleven" while maintaining a re-ampable channel and re-amp when the time is right if the tones aren't. This re-amping can be done at home or elsewhere with a "kit."
2. Create a kit, but you go with it. Lap top, small interface, couple pre-amps, cabling, packing blankets and mics. By doing this you will still be able to get rooms in your sound which IMO are paramount to great guitar sounds.
Post by: iCombs on September 10, 2008, 02:47:11 AM
Get the performances whenever...reamp and get the tones when it's convenient.
I've actually been doing TONS of direct guitars lately (as part of my songwriting/demo process) and there are definitely times I know I should just save the takes that I got and reamp them for the mix.
As a matter of fact...if I get a chance...I'm gonna give that a shot this week...
Post by: rankus on September 10, 2008, 01:46:25 PM
For studio Guitars I would definitely start with a Les Paul and a Strat. Sell one or two of those Tele's and add these two. They are the staple of rock... but you already know that.
After that I would add a Tele (you already have) and then a Gibson ES335 ... with these 4 guits you can cover almost any style/tone
(This is what is hanging on the wall over here) (along with about ten others than never get used...)
Post by: imdrecordings on September 10, 2008, 02:00:48 PM
That A2D sounds killer and is WAAaaaYY usable !
I second the VSTi with a good reamp.
Post by: iCombs on September 10, 2008, 02:11:54 PM
Also...as an interesting additional feature to this technique...with the lack of compression on the direct guitars, you get big transients that make editing easier...and actually can facilitate drum-styled gridding if you've got a particularly heinous guitarist. Not to mention the processing options you get pre-amplifier...you can use your outboard EQ's if there's something in the guitar tone you don't dig, you can scoop it out before the amp and change the way the amp reacts to the guitar.
Yep...this is NEAT.
J...bud...this seriously is your best option. The options it gives you are so friggin' stellar that there's no reason not to.
Post by: rankus on September 10, 2008, 06:20:49 PM
Yes yes. The Re-Amping scenario allows you to use the EQ's on the amp(s) instead of the mixer/daw while mixing.
If I can, I will leave the re-amp until mix time and use mic changes, amp eq, stomp boxes etc instead of plugs.
I have always done this with bass gtr as well. I can avoid using an amp while tracking and not have to worry about leakage etc.
Also makes sessions go a lot faster for bass when all there is to do is set up a DI box and hit the red button.
Post by: NelsonL on September 11, 2008, 02:07:36 AM
I've taken homestudio m-box DI'd guitars and reamped them to great effect at the studio-- I'm not knocking. You just need a space for that or it's back to the speaker in a box concept.
Uroboros.
Post by: iCombs on September 11, 2008, 10:01:30 AM
And, to be totally honest, close-miced guitar amps sound pretty good in just about any room so long as it doesn't have some sort of GLARING acoustic issue. I've done killer guitars in VO booths.
but it sounded like j.'s issue wasn't one of space, but rather time. anyone feel free to correct me on this if i've misread something.
Post by: NelsonL on September 11, 2008, 12:09:20 PM
Clearly it gives you control over when you print the tracks. So if sleeping babies are the only problem then there ya go.
From other conversations I'd gathered that space is an issue, but maybe my memory is faulty.
I'd have a hard time selling the amp sim in my world-- but that's another conversation.
Post by: iCombs on September 11, 2008, 12:37:10 PM
They are HANDS DOWN the best basses Fender has made in the last 10 years (at that price point). I've played a few and they've all been consistently good.
As far as attacking the Les Paul angle...I'm a BIG fan of Tokai...the bummer is they're illegal to retail in the states, but you can buy them for fairly cheap off eBay. If you get one of the Japanese-made Love Rock models...you'll get a guitar that is built as well as a Gibson for like...1/3 the price of a new LP standard. Toss some shit hot rockin' pickups in it and get some good pots and caps in it and you'll have something that will walk on most any stock LP.
Also...just got a PRS SE Soapbar II Maple the other day...and I gotta say that it's a totally decent guitar for the price. Perhaps one of the PRS SE Singlecuts with some upgraded electronics would also fill that sort of gap without breaking the bank. I've gotta play some more of them, but those SE's seem to be a hell of an instrument at the price point.
Just a thought. Or two.
Post by: j.hall on September 11, 2008, 09:31:31 PM
| iCombs wrote on Thu, 11 September 2008 09:01 |
. but it sounded like j.'s issue wasn't one of space, but rather time. anyone feel free to correct me on this if i've misread something. |
exactly. i have space for cabs and amps, but, as a hard rock guitar player, i'm well aware of how loud my own personal amp runs for me to feel good about it's tone. that level, shakes my house.
i work with some bands that have day jobs and want to keep their vacation time for holidays. they also are asking me to track guitars. after hours just doesn't work here.
so isolation is key.
marcel, honestly, i can get the grendel for 350, i can see me building one for much cheaper. i love to build things, and i'm moderately good at it. i just can't see how that much material and my time will equate to much less.
i want to hear more about converters and synths. ANYONE with experience in this PLEASE post.
i need to make bass guitars synthie and cool. i need to turn any instrument into a cool synth pad/patch.
i need to get my "take the tracks home and overdub" clients to deliver better tracks. i LOVE, LOVE!!!! API gear. but i want to hear what else you guys have used.
forget budget. just tell me what you dig and why.
Post by: grantis on September 11, 2008, 10:35:29 PM
Post by: j.hall on September 12, 2008, 11:05:32 AM
does anyone know what jeremy ward (deceased member of mars volta) used on De-Loused.... to manipulate the vocals?
Post by: marcel on September 12, 2008, 01:49:49 PM
| j.hall wrote on Thu, 11 September 2008 18:31 |
marcel, honestly, i can get the grendel for 350, i can see me building one for much cheaper. i love to build things, and i'm moderately good at it. i just can't see how that much material and my time will equate to much less. |
I think you're probably right at that price...
| Quote: |
i want to hear more about converters and synths. ANYONE with experience in this PLEASE post. i need to make bass guitars synthie and cool. i need to turn any instrument into a cool synth pad/patch. |
| Quote: |
i need to get my "take the tracks home and overdub" clients to deliver better tracks. i LOVE, LOVE!!!! API gear. but i want to hear what else you guys have used. forget budget. just tell me what you dig and why. |
I dunno, I think stuff sounds good primarily because of the people who are using it. Think of how many things go thru your head when you put up a mic, even something simple that you've done lots of times. 'Does this sound like before?' 'Is this right for the track?' 'Do I need to roll off the bass on that guitar amp?' etc, etc, etc.
I still think the quality of this stuff is going to be a crapshoot, no matter what you give them.
Maybe you need to get a part-time second engineer who can handle the remotes? I would have jumped at that when I was a young guy...
Post by: j.hall on September 12, 2008, 03:04:18 PM
| marcel wrote on Fri, 12 September 2008 12:49 |
Maybe you need to get a part-time second engineer who can handle the remotes? I would have jumped at that when I was a young guy... |
problem there is travel budget.
i'd be sending a guy to chicago, upstate new york, texas, st. louis, etc....
the whole point is to cut budget. sending some one churns away airfare, room and board and a day rate.
Post by: Fig on September 12, 2008, 03:47:45 PM
| j.hall wrote on Thu, 11 September 2008 20:31 |
i want to hear more about converters and synths. ANYONE with experience in this PLEASE post. i need to make bass guitars synthie and cool. i need to turn any instrument into a cool synth pad/patch. |
Hi J,
I like to use Line6 ModPro and FilterPro for these kinds of effects. They are discontinued, unfortunately - as they are very cool.
If you can find one or the other - get 'em. The EchoPro is cool, too - but doesn't do what you are talking about.
Another neat box is the MFC-42 from Akai. A MIDI controllable/syncable, multi-pole analog filter. Actually, its a stereo filter and a mono filter - sounds really cool on basses, IMO.
Of course everyone has mentioned the Sherman, already.
Also consider, something simple like a Korg MS-2000 or MicroKORG which has a vocoder path. You can run stereo audio through these things, too.
Can't comment on Reason - you know why <wink>
Hope this helps,
Fig
Post by: j.hall on September 12, 2008, 04:01:46 PM
is the akai a stomp box?
Post by: Fig on September 12, 2008, 06:11:41 PM
| j.hall wrote on Fri, 12 September 2008 15:01 |
Fig, what are your thoughts on the sherman. i know very little and need to collect more opinions. |
Well... I've only used one, I do not own one ($$$).
It is the ultimate mangler and when used subtley, can be really cool, too.
| Quote: |
is the akai a stomp box? |
Nope:
http://www.akaipro.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1754/tt /5
Two rack spaces - a dedicated stereo filter and a dedicated mono filter (3 inputs) mixed to a stereo output (2 outputs).
Syncs to MIDI for time-related sweeps of the built-in LFO, envelope and trigger modes. Sends MIDI data, too. Its pretty cool. Only thing missing is an input level meter (duh!)
Originally manufactured to link to MPC devices, but works great as a standalone analog filter set, too.
Also, look at some of the recent MoogMusic pedals:
http://www.moogmusic.com/moogerfooger/
simple one-trick ponies, when ganged together can make just about any sound unrecognizable from its true origin.
$0.02,
Fig
Post by: Firefly on September 12, 2008, 06:27:36 PM
Post by: Gabriel F on September 13, 2008, 12:22:41 AM
and for tracking an sm7 and a good pre should be good enough and you eliminate a good part of the room with that mic.
Gabriel Fonts.
Post by: NelsonL on September 13, 2008, 06:09:21 AM
Pitchshift (Melodyne) > FX/Sound design IR's (TL Space) > long delay (Massey TD5) > Verb or short delay.
Plus, those are all very useful plugins on their own.
Post by: rankus on September 13, 2008, 01:05:33 PM
| Firefly wrote on Fri, 12 September 2008 15:27 |
I'm not meaning to hijack this thread, but there seem to be some ardent fans of re-amping here. Whats your guys preferred method (of dealing with the impedance mismatch from your soundcard to the amp)? |
Well there are dedicated boxes that are made for this... but:
I like to use two DI boxes. One active and one passive. Run the line out from your board (or daw) into the active DI's input then use a female to female xlr adapter to connect the output of the active DI to the output of the passive one.. This effectively drives the passive DI in reverse. You take the 1/4" "input" of the passive DI and run that to your amp.
Sounds like a hassle but it's quick to setup, and the bonus over buying a dedicated re-amp box is that you now have two DI's that come in handy all the time.
I use Radial JDV for the active and a Radial JDI for the passive... all those Jensen transformers in the path don't hurt!
PS: Make sure you start with all your faders DOWN and bring em up slowly... less "surprises"
Post by: Firefly on September 14, 2008, 10:40:11 AM
(Although something that just occurred to me, wouldn't the effect work just as well without the active DI in the chain?)
Post by: marcel on September 14, 2008, 02:16:30 PM
I usually engage the 15dB pad on the DI box, and then bring the bus fader up slowly, as Rick says, to avoid explosion.
Post by: Fibes on September 14, 2008, 05:20:05 PM
| marcel wrote on Sun, 14 September 2008 14:16 |
I just take a balanced, line level bus out into the 'output' of a Radial JDI, and go from its 'input' to the amp. Don't know why Rick uses the (active) first box..(?) I usually engage the 15dB pad on the DI box, and then bring the bus fader up slowly, as Rick says, to avoid explosion. |
I've done the same.
My headphone system works for this much of the time now...
Post by: rankus on September 15, 2008, 02:43:50 PM
| marcel wrote on Sun, 14 September 2008 11:16 |
Don't know why Rick uses the (active) first box..(?) |
Hmm. I do it this way as it is the way I was taught.. It never occurred to me to try without the active DI to be honest!
In my defense the Radial literature shows this same method as I use. I think it is to ensure that the passive DI sees the correct impedance at it's input..
I should also note that the JDV (active DI) has a "drag control" to vary the impedance which I make use of while in re-amp mode as well.
Post by: Fig on September 15, 2008, 04:31:18 PM
| Firefly wrote on Fri, 12 September 2008 17:27 |
Whats your guys preferred method (of dealing with the impedance mismatch from your soundcard to the amp)? |
What's a soundcard?
Any passive DI in reverse will do what you ask.
Make sure you have an attenuator (aux send or fader) in front the DI (like for sending to a reverb or something) and that you do, indeed, start with it all the way down!
$0.02,
Fig
Post by: Tomas Danko on September 16, 2008, 07:59:16 AM
But it's not a swiss army tool.
That Akai filter is more towards a classic analog synth filter box, sounds OK but it's rather limited.
A very good way to get any track to sound like a synth, is to run it through a synth.
Something like a big modular thing with audio inputs.
I have an EMS VCS-3 for that, as do some others. There are plenty of new and old options out there.
Post by: ATOR on September 17, 2008, 05:55:31 PM
| Tomas Danko wrote on Tue, 16 September 2008 13:59 |
I love the Sherman, and would love to own one. I've tried it quite a lot though. It is very harsh and nasty to the point of buzzy and broken sounding. In a very good way. But it's not a swiss army tool. That Akai filter is more towards a classic analog synth filter box, sounds OK but it's rather limited. A very good way to get any track to sound like a synth, is to run it through a synth. Something like a big modular thing with audio inputs. I have an EMS VCS-3 for that, as do some others. There are plenty of new and old options out there. |
The VCS-3 is great. I'd love to have one of those one day, they are truly mesmerizing.
I'm using a KORG MS-20 to mangle sound. It's a great synth with a hipass and a lopass filter, an LFO, two envelopes and it's pseudo modular meaning you can patch the envelopes, LFO and external audio to where you want.
You can run external audio through the filters but you can also use external audio to control the filter cutoff and the oscillator pitch. So you can run a boring synthpad through the filters and have a percussionpart control the cutoff and end up with an out of this world electronic percussive part.
Or run a guitargroove through the lopass filter and set the envelope to trigger on every attack and let the envelope control the filter cutoff.
The filters are selfoscillating so they'll do plenty of weird bleep and bloop shit.
You can even plug in a (bass-)guitar and have the oscillators track the guitar pitch if the part is clean and not too fast.
It's the most inspiring sound machine I have. And hey, you can even use it as a synth. It screams and cuts through a mix like no other.
Post by: Tomas Danko on September 18, 2008, 06:35:54 AM
| ATOR wrote on Wed, 17 September 2008 22:55 | ||
The VCS-3 is great. I'd love to have one of those one day, they are truly mesmerizing. I'm using a KORG MS-20 to mangle sound. It's a great synth with a hipass and a lopass filter, an LFO, two envelopes and it's pseudo modular meaning you can patch the envelopes, LFO and external audio to where you want. You can run external audio through the filters but you can also use external audio to control the filter cutoff and the oscillator pitch. So you can run a boring synthpad through the filters and have a percussionpart control the cutoff and end up with an out of this world electronic percussive part. Or run a guitargroove through the lopass filter and set the envelope to trigger on every attack and let the envelope control the filter cutoff. The filters are selfoscillating so they'll do plenty of weird bleep and bloop shit. You can even plug in a (bass-)guitar and have the oscillators track the guitar pitch if the part is clean and not too fast. It's the most inspiring sound machine I have. And hey, you can even use it as a synth. It screams and cuts through a mix like no other. |
The nifty thing with the Korg MS20 is that the LFO goes way up into the audible band. That calls for some great modulation akin' to ringmodesque sounds but different. The MS20 is very fierce and aggressive, great sound.
One could perhaps start out with a virtual modular such as something from Arturia or the likes. But somehow, when it comes to messing up audio tracks the analog hardware versions makes more of a difference.
One fairly inexpensive alternative is the Doepfer A100 modular system.
Post by: j.hall on September 23, 2008, 04:23:58 PM
i do what a sherman filter bank for straight out mangle, but i'll play with indigo first, as it might be able to hang.
Post by: T. Mueller on October 13, 2008, 04:05:56 PM
| j.hall wrote on Thu, 11 September 2008 20:31 |
i need to make bass guitars synthie and cool. i need to turn any instrument into a cool synth pad/patch. forget budget. just tell me what you dig and why. |
J., when you come over this week, remind me to show you my pedal rack. There's definitely synth/pad stuff on there. Some of it's crap and will be removed in the next two weeks; some of it's cheap and not bad. Some of it is ridiculously ethereally kick-you-in-the-teeth. Ironic juxtaposition intended.
Post by: garret on October 14, 2008, 09:58:37 PM
| j.hall wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 15:23 |
indigo is working nicely for actual pads and such. it was free with PT and i've never used it. i do what a sherman filter bank for straight out mangle, but i'll play with indigo first, as it might be able to hang. |
Also check out FreeAlpha3. It's a freeware, stripped down version of Alpha3 from Linplug, which is a very nice synth.
http://www.linplug.com/Download/download.htm