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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Fletcher => Topic started by: BrianS on August 15, 2009, 10:04:12 AM

Title: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: BrianS on August 15, 2009, 10:04:12 AM

I was browsing the DUC looking for the confidence to upgrade from 7.4.1 to 8.x and noticed the announcement that there will be no Digi/Avid presence on the showroom floor at AES 2009.

Seems odd to me that the most "professional" audio solution is ignoring the most "professional" gathering of AE's in the US.

Does this say something about Avid?

Does this say something about AES?

Does this mean nothing?

Hmmmm

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Jim Williams on August 15, 2009, 10:53:27 AM

It's a business decision, that's all. AES is a small trade show and it is very expensive to exhibit there. Avid gets thousands more people at Namm and NAB, it's about the numbers.

SMPTE was wise to break with AES and merge with NAB, they have a huge show in Vegas each year and SMPTE gets way more traffic than if they had stayed with AES.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Fletcher on August 15, 2009, 11:11:02 AM

If I remember correctly Avid / Digi hasn't done AES in years. Guess they figure everyone knows who they are so there is no need to remind them. Must be nice to be the 900lb. Gorilla

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: BrianS on August 15, 2009, 11:55:40 AM

They were in NYC in 07. They had a very large booth. I skipped the west coast AES show last year so I don't know about that. I went to Vegas for NAB instead. It was my first NAB

I didn't feel at home at NAB. No DW Fern, no John Hardy, didn't see you there either Fletcher. I like going to AES and seeing many of the same faces for the last 25 years.

Not sure if I'm gonna go to the NYC show or not.....

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on August 15, 2009, 09:05:19 PM

For Digi to do an island like they normally do would cost around $250,000 all in.. not worth it for the attendance the AES show's been getting... very few software developers will be showing this year.

Rail

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: J.J. Blair on August 15, 2009, 10:27:16 PM

UA skipped AES a year or so ago.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Fletcher on August 16, 2009, 05:53:41 AM

For the more 'pedestrian' companies [the ones you find in Banjo Mart] NAMM has become the new AES. For companies that are still involved in the "audio" business, AES is the place to be.

UA, Digi, Behringer, etc., etc., etc. are all at NAMM [& / or "Musikmesse]... there is really no reason for them to do AES as the people involved in actual "audio" [as opposed to moving bad music files around] is not as large a market as it once was.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Jeff Goodman on August 16, 2009, 11:10:05 AM

Did Digi do NAB last year? I kinda remember them pulling out of that one as well. May be wrong. Anyone know for sure?

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: GK on August 20, 2009, 07:36:03 PM

Thought I'd chime in on this one
as nothing has shown up on the
net about this.
I was an HD dealer until July 31.
We heard through the grapevine
that they were closing all HD dealers
that were Music stores. Contacted
my former rep and had it confirmed.
No notice from Digi.... (whoops)
"Avid Audio". No letter, no email,
no call. That is what I call "channel
partnering" (their term) at it's finest.
Millions of dollars of business over
the years and we don't even merit a
call. Does Rodney Dangerfield come
to mind
In Canada(33 Mil. population)there
are now only 3 dealers. Montreal,
Toronto, and Vancouver 2 of which are
primarily Post oriented. Good to give
client options.
So no surprise that they are not at
AES. probably no new product
Glad I got heavily back into
analog the last five years.
Not sure what's happening in the US
maybe some else can get offer some
info.

George Klaus
Pro Audio Manager
Steve's Music
Montreal

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: leonardo valvassori on August 31, 2009, 09:46:32 AM

Does this indicate some kind of major development/shift in their hardware product line coming down the pipe?

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on September 01, 2009, 07:32:26 AM

Good Call L,

Perhaps both that and distro..

j

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Fletcher on September 01, 2009, 11:07:35 AM

I was still at M-A when Digi approached us about being a dealer [and possibly doing a "Mercenary Edition"]. At that time they had just released software "revision 8". They had intimated that there was new hardware in the pipeline... but there was no indication as to when it might come out. The guys at the shop who were familiar with P-T said that "8" was a bit easier to use... but overall it still wasn't up to the audio standards that Mercenary has adopted.

Since I started my new gig last April I don't really know much more than that... I'm sure someone somewhere knows something. If I remember correctly the "President" of Digi jumped ship to work at Apple [presumably on Logic], so who knows what the future holds.

On the bright side [for them I suppose], Avid stock seems to be slowly coming back to being worth more than being worthless... perhaps a good sign for their continuance.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Jay Kadis on September 01, 2009, 03:44:49 PM

Perhaps this explains something?

http://www.prosoundnews.com/article/23768

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: KB_S1 on September 01, 2009, 04:33:18 PM

Jay Kadis wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 20:44

Perhaps this explains something?

http://www.prosoundnews.com/article/23768

Hmm, if that is not sanctioned then surely it is in breach of the old millennium digital copyright thing.

Actively circumventing a digital protection system type affair.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: bigbone on September 02, 2009, 11:20:23 AM

I'm not sure that AVID really support digi even if they own it................

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Jim Williams on September 02, 2009, 11:31:14 AM

bigbone wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 08:20

I'm not sure that AVID really support digi even if they own it................

Sort of like the Feds and GM?

I wonder how many more will cancel on this year's NYC AES fest. With the economy and the sky-high NYC prices, I would expect a smaller show, if that's even possible anymore. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of attendies and their shows of choice over the years, I believe it would show a steady migration away from the pricy and small AES for wider reaching exibitions like NAB and NAMM.

The question remains: Can AES survive on it's own?

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: mixwell on September 02, 2009, 02:01:13 PM

Jay Kadis wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 14:44

Perhaps this explains something?

http://www.prosoundnews.com/article/23768

Mackie Mixers and PT M-powered!!!

Finally, GOOD HARDWARE can be directly used with Pro Stools!!!

I know, I know, BUT Its probably infinitely better than those M-blue-cheese-wedge-door-stops.

I don't think Digi has anything new. I feel they are pimping the same "buy our system" approach, that seems lost considering the power of the native processing. There are two sides to every story and I see the business and preference side, but all these DAW's are the same to me, and buying into their proprietary system, means your studio needs THAT kind of business to succeed.

If you take 20 minute's to discuss the project with your client and educate them on the actual material you will be recording, you can make this work in any DAW. The choice is preference to me. Business of Recall and travel? Well, I want to promote OTHER kinds of business, so as to ENRICH the society of music and the quality of the musicianship that can be found during the dance. Not cut and paste albums.

On to the technical, I ask myself; Are we close to getting a software only Pro Tools? NOPE! God I hope they end this pipe dream of world domination at some point before they go out of business. Personally, I believe the engineer working on the PCM audio, which all DAW's work with, IS the real standard. I will use Pro Tools, when its truly native. Give us the Software only please. I want Universal compatibility, but alas, Digi has NOTHING for me.

Flame Suit Ready.......

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: compasspnt on September 02, 2009, 10:48:24 PM

As I have posted elsewhere on PSW a couple of times before, I have been considering switching to Logic for a while now.

So imagine my delight when we recently had a very well known group come in to track, bringing their own fully-loaded, newest-version Logic system with them.

This would be a chance to check native out, and surely I would soon be leaving the PT world behind!

Not.

There is absolutely no way I could use a native system until they get the latency thing completely corrected.

We had to jump through so many hoops on the desk to be able to monitor real-time through the headphones whilst tracking, that I was just completely unimpressed.

But at least I did invent a couple of cool new product ideas to work on that will help people deal with these inadequacies.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Hank Alrich on September 02, 2009, 11:53:29 PM

Terry,

What interface were they using?

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: compasspnt on September 03, 2009, 02:18:47 AM

AD/DA-16X.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on September 03, 2009, 09:57:34 AM

With a Firewire card? Apogee Symphony? Some other PCI interface? What sample rate? Buffer rate? Latest driver for the interface? How much muscle on the computer?

We record 24+ tracks here on a first generation 8-core with AD/DA16X and Symphony...with no audible latency, so long as there aren't oodles of plugins engaged, eating our resources. Sometimes we've gotta click on the Low-Latency-Monitoring button in Logic if we're getting a couple more ms than is tolerable.

Were you running Logic 9? That program is kind of horrific with stability and speed right now, even on built-in audio drivers. We've not yet moved over from 8 at the Meth Lab.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Tomas Danko on September 03, 2009, 10:23:54 AM

I can set up my Logic 7 and RME Hammerfall DSP audio interface to pretty much TDM standards when recording, depending on the complexity of the project at hand.

All this without using any nifty patching about using an external console or such.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Hank Alrich on September 03, 2009, 10:37:17 AM

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 23:18

AD/DA-16X.

I'd be curious to hear your opinion if you ever get a chance to run Logic with Metric Halo kit. The MH stuff seems to have figured out how to handle the latency problem.

I don't see any mention of "direct monitoring" for the Apogees.

Perhaps MOTU has this figured out, too, though I've no experience with their stuff.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on September 03, 2009, 10:44:11 AM

Hank Alrich wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 10:37

I don't see any mention of "direct monitoring" for the Apogees.

Because they're just converters...the interface with the computer is what does direct monitoring stuff (like Apogee's "Maestro" mixer, or RME's "TotalMix", or a low-latency button in your DAW).

I'm curious to hear of this rig and its configuration, Terry...

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Podgorny on September 03, 2009, 11:23:11 AM

Seems like ASIO had all that low-latency stuff figured out years ago.
Of course, you cannot monitor with plugins. And in order to handle truly complex tracking sessions, you need a system whose price rivals that of a used HD rig (which could do all these things more than six years ago).

People love to sound the death knell of the juggernaut, but it's just not going to happen yet.

I KNOW TDM is long in the tooth, and am looking forward to hearing whatever Digi has to announce in the coming months. I just hope it's less pro-sumer crap (ie. adding more preamps to the 003 instead of getting rid of them altogether).

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: compasspnt on September 03, 2009, 11:28:12 AM

It wasn't my rig, rather was owned by the very well known producer/friend.

As best I remember, it was Logic 8, Apogee Symphony, not firewire.

(I was so glad to see it go, I have erased some of the memory of it from my mind.)

The session did have plug-ins that he wanted to run live...that was the reason latency would rear its ugly head.

In our fast-paced, schedule-driven, professional-studio world, this was unacceptable.

TDM handles such things easily for us every other day of the week here.

I am no Digidesign apologist (or lover), but we have to use what we have to use.

So my quest for something else is still on hold.

(Haven't ever used anything MH, and unlikely to have the time to experiment.)

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on September 03, 2009, 11:34:38 AM

I wouldn't poo-poo this rig right away...probably just needs some tweaks to driver/audio/MIDI settings.

It is also worth noting that Symphony is faster/more efficient at higher sample rates.

Again, we do 24+ tracks on a Symphony rig into Logic 8 with a couple-tree plugins going and do not experience the "unusable" conditions you describe.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Tomas Danko on September 03, 2009, 11:39:43 AM

Podgorny wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 16:23

Insert/In-line plug-in's will increase latency. But reverb and delay sent through aux's can sound just fine no matter what during recording, just imagine that you're getting a wee bit more pre-delay to your reverberation...

In order to just get rid of any potential problems in the studio when the clock is ticking and talents are expensive, I also choose TDM all the time. For this reason alone, I might add.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: MI on September 03, 2009, 12:59:05 PM

Podgorny wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 16:23

People love to sound the death knell of the juggernaut, but it's just not going to happen yet.

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 11:28

*snip*
In our fast-paced, schedule-driven, professional-studio world, this was unacceptable.

Quoted for emphasis.

People must realize Professional Studios are not there to play games and jimmy rig some cheap solution that kinda works.
Equipment must work perfectly and downtime cannot happen.

Quote:

So my quest for something else is still on hold.

(Haven't ever used anything MH, and unlikely to have the time to experiment.)

With good reason. Again, time is better spent earning a living making music rather than experimenting and testing and configuring.

I'm no fan of Digi, but the package system WORKS. And hence this is what is needed in the REAL world. This and compatibility.
You can take a PT session anywhere and it works.

It's a tool to work with. You can't let emotions get in the way of the tools required to do a job.

MI

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: rankus on September 07, 2009, 11:01:14 PM

Apogee 16xs over here... running them on an RME AES32 card that is capable of real time monitoring using the RME "Total Mix" app built into the interface card.

100% STABLE ALL THE TIME. 100% PRO system. Period.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Podgorny on September 08, 2009, 12:30:08 AM

rankus wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 22:01

running them on an RME AES32 card that is capable of real time monitoring using the RME "Total Mix" app built into the interface card.

Built into the interface card.
Not the audio software.
Satori only comes when the software controls the hardware directly, a la PRO TOOLS (or Digital Performer with MOTU hardware).

But now we're back to that pesky proprietary thing.
Oh bother.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: trock on September 08, 2009, 01:16:37 PM

i recently purchased logic 9 for my mac to learn while i use cubase 5 on mac. i know the optimization is much much better than cubase so i thought since i am on mac now it would be a good program to use and learn

then i learned apogee recently moved there stuff to mac/apple?

and euphonix also?

sort of seems that apple is actually making a concerted effort to take on PT HD?

with some of the defections in personnel also?

once they get it all hammered out i would think logic/apogee/euphonix would be one heck of a nice system and still less than a typical HD setup?

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: rankus on September 08, 2009, 04:06:44 PM

Podgorny wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 21:30

rankus wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 22:01

running them on an RME AES32 card that is capable of real time monitoring using the RME "Total Mix" app built into the interface card.

Agreed Kyle. But at thousands and thousands cheaper I can deal with opening another window to control the cue mix.

But yes, I DO agree with you... proprietary seems to keep coming up

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: marcel on September 08, 2009, 05:01:22 PM

Terry was specifically referring to tracking 'through' plugins. If I'm not mistaken, with the exception of PTHD, none of the card-based cue systems will allow this.

That's the whole beauty of PTHD, the card is doing the heavy lifting on several fronts, no?

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: rankus on September 08, 2009, 06:54:19 PM

marcel wrote on Tue, 08 September 2009 14:01

Terry was specifically referring to tracking 'through' plugins.

I doubt Terry would be tracking through pluggins... In fact I don't understand why anyone would want to.

It really comes down to what one is used to working with - native vs pro tools - I find absolutely no significant difference in speed, time or convenience with either system once properly setup, and the user is confident/competent in the system...

Remember we have PT rig in one room and Nuendo/RME/Apogee in the other.. Each of us has considered switching platforms but decide to "stay with what works for us" .

I switched from PT to Nuendo about 7 years ago, so have experience on both.

In the end both systems are stable fast and sound great. Latency is not an issue with either. (I monitor with a console btw it's more comfortable for me and my old ways)

It's the nut behind the wheel

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: compasspnt on September 08, 2009, 07:21:02 PM

I personally would be very unlikely to be tracking through plug-ins, but *my clients* might well do.

And what about overdubbing once the basic track is cut...?

The native system was simply unusable for both of those scenarios.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Extreme Mixing on September 08, 2009, 07:52:36 PM

Yes, Terry. The latency of native systems sets recording back 30 years, or so. I want to monitor through "tape" so I hear what I'm recording too.

Steve

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Podgorny on September 08, 2009, 08:47:12 PM

I regularly track with TDM plugins when doing vocals. An over-compressed vocal in the cue mix can help a singer to work their performance, and I don't necessarily want to print that sound.

I can do it on a native system too - with the buffer set very low, but I run out of power for the plugins that have showed up on the session by the time we're doing vocals.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: marcel on September 09, 2009, 09:46:07 AM

Podgorny wrote on Tue, 08 September 2009 17:47

You can print a mix of the session for the singer to work to, import this into a new session (where processing headroom is now available again), and then export the vox back to the master session when you are done.

It's a workaround, but it's not too bad if you're prepared for it.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on September 09, 2009, 09:49:11 AM

compasspnt wrote on Tue, 08 September 2009 19:21

And what about overdubbing once the basic track is cut...?

Not sure I understand. What exactly was the problem you had with overdubbing? You would be in the overwhelming minority that has a problem overdubbing with Logic...

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: marcel on September 09, 2009, 10:04:08 AM

Sean Eldon Qualls wrote on Wed, 09 September 2009 06:49

compasspnt wrote on Tue, 08 September 2009 19:21

And what about overdubbing once the basic track is cut...?

Not sure I understand. What exactly was the problem you had with overdubbing? You would be in the overwhelming minority that has a problem overdubbing with Logic...

Sean, I think he's talking about this:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/24864/2571/

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Sean Eldon Qualls on September 09, 2009, 10:30:39 AM

The problem described in that thread would be null and void if his computer was quick enough to monitor through Logic.

We're talking about a native system. Your computer has to be up to snuff, period. I can monitor and send cues through Logic all day long with no hiccups and invite anyone to come on down and see for themselves. If the computer Terry was using was a newer machine (hell, our computer is at least 3 years old now!) and he could not monitor through Logic without latency, the problem is that the system was not properly set up/optimized.

I'm not saying it's the perfect system that has absolutely no flaws (fuckin' thing does live inside a computer, after all!), but I am saying that the system doesn't really have all of the issues some people are saying it does.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Tomas Danko on September 09, 2009, 11:41:19 AM

marcel wrote on Wed, 09 September 2009 14:46

Podgorny wrote on Tue, 08 September 2009 17:47

I've done this a lot.

Having a clean, minimum amount of tracks and so forth, project for recording only.

Print the song to a stereo track, import it to the recording project.

Record vocals, no latency to speak of on a proper computer and audio I/O. Even with some plug-ins rolling.

Drump the vocal tracks into the full song project, keep working.

I've even done this on an old Powerbook G4 with an RME interface.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: compasspnt on September 09, 2009, 01:35:56 PM

I give up.

No need rehashing this.

The native system (with the latest, fastest computer), just didn't cut it in our world. Too many splits, too many workarounds.

But when there is a truly professional alternative to PT, I will be the second one there.

And I hope it is from Apple.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: KB_S1 on September 09, 2009, 05:00:08 PM

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 09 September 2009 18:35

Have you tried PT8 yet?

Only used it on LE so far but it is a noticable improvement.

Or, is it to get away from PCI cards that is your desire?

Would running a UAD or TC card for plug-ins improve matters?

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: BiasRocks on September 10, 2009, 11:42:24 PM

compasspnt wrote on Tue, 08 September 2009 19:21

I
And what about overdubbing once the basic track is cut...?

The native system was simply unusable for both of those scenarios.

It can be done.

That particular native system was not usable, but I wouldn't be too hasty to paint all native systems with that brush.

I routinely record/overdub/mix on a totally native system here, Samplitude in my case. I can track through a plug-in without issue, as long as it's fairly low latency. Overdubs with a loaded up native mixer @ 24/96kHz is also no problem.

My system is rock solid with an Apogee AD16X front end, I've invested the time to make it a totally stable system.

Mark

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: compasspnt on September 11, 2009, 03:59:42 AM

Understood, and "Well done you."

But in our client world, we have no room for "...as long as..."

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: BiasRocks on September 11, 2009, 11:10:59 AM

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 11 September 2009 03:59

Understood, and "Well done you."

But in our client world, we have no room for "...as long as..."

Understood.

Cheers.
Mark

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: compasspnt on September 11, 2009, 01:05:12 PM

Understanding understood.

With respect.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Fletcher on September 16, 2009, 08:44:11 AM

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 11 September 2009 03:59

Understood, and "Well done you."

But in our client world, we have no room for "...as long as..."

If I'm not mistaken [hopefully Sean or Adam can pop on and confirm or refute this] there is a function in Logic that permits you to "monitor input" [just like on a tape machine] when you're doing overdubs.

It might just be with Apogee converters [which is what is used at The Meth Lab] but if I'm not mistaken it is a part of the Logic software.

I'll pop Adam / Sean an email so they can confirm [or refute] this impression.

Title: Re: No Digi on the showroom floor
Post by: Tomas Danko on September 16, 2009, 11:14:39 AM

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 16 September 2009 13:44

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 11 September 2009 03:59

Understood, and "Well done you."

But in our client world, we have no room for "...as long as..."

You can do this in Logic regardless of interface. You can also set up nifty splits in the older versions of Logic and do something similar with pretty latency free results (audio interface permitting).

There's also a record mode where it kills plug's temporarily if they are the culprits.