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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => j. hall => Topic started by: j.hall on March 07, 2008, 04:36:06 PM

Title: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 07, 2008, 04:36:06 PM
as we continue to grow IMP into a great learning tool, i was wondering if mixing a hundred years war tune might be helpful.

the only difference is this time i would post my unmastered mix with the tracks.

less of a "can you make it sound exactly like this", and more "here's something to shoot for"

copying some one else's work is very difficult to do, and can often times teach you a lot about your own habits and tastes.

thoughts?
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: grantis on March 07, 2008, 05:26:34 PM
I think something like this could help develop critical listening skills.  I'm game.

Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: maxim on March 07, 2008, 05:38:44 PM
not sure about the "pre-mix"

rather hear it AFTER the mix

i guess i have that choice though...
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: grantis on March 07, 2008, 05:45:03 PM
maxim wrote on Fri, 07 March 2008 16:38

not sure about the "pre-mix"

rather hear it AFTER the mix

i guess i have that choice though...




that would defeat the point of this idea.  the point is to...not necessarily "match" j's mix, but rather "aim" for it.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Adam Miller on March 07, 2008, 07:46:25 PM
Do it! I might even have some free time this coming week...
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: maxim on March 07, 2008, 08:35:06 PM
" the point is to...not necessarily "match" j's mix, but rather "aim" for it."

i'd prefer a "blank state"

maybe, some sort of written instructions/keywords/inspirations?

at most, a basic mix...
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 07, 2008, 11:17:48 PM
fair enough.  hope a few more chime in.  i'd like to see what people think about this idea.

i'm really indifferent
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: garret on March 07, 2008, 11:32:15 PM
I'm cool with the idea...

I wonder if it might be a great exercise for folks here who are just starting out... by trying to match your mix, we would have something objective to talk about.

I know sometimes you push for the opposite.. you want less discussion like "+6db at 1khz", and more "the chorus needs to lift more, my head isn't banging."

I find it hard as hell to match someone else's mix... so it would be a challenge.

-G
p.s. In other news, baby #3 was born a week ago, and she is a girl... two boys now and a girl.  Mom & baby are doin well...  So what choo think, the oldest son on drums, middle one on guitars and vocals, and youngest girl on bass + bg vox?  Me, I'll be the mean manager Dad who makes 'em practice Pixies tunes all day long.

Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: grantis on March 07, 2008, 11:34:24 PM
Quote:

-G
p.s. In other news, baby #3 was born a week ago, and she is a girl... two boys now and a girl. Mom & baby are doin well... So what choo think, the oldest son on drums, middle one on guitars and vocals, and youngest girl on bass + bg vox? Me, I'll be the mean manager Dad who makes 'em practice Pixies tunes all day long.


i'd say make both your boys learn guitar and drums, then see who's a better singer when they get older.  Smile




Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: garret on March 07, 2008, 11:37:16 PM
grant richard wrote on Fri, 07 March 2008 22:34


i'd say make both your boys learn guitar and drums, then see who's a better singer when they get older.  Smile



Good point... safer too, so we can avoid having a singing drummer.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: grantis on March 08, 2008, 07:08:10 AM
garret wrote on Fri, 07 March 2008 22:37

grant richard wrote on Fri, 07 March 2008 22:34


i'd say make both your boys learn guitar and drums, then see who's a better singer when they get older.  Smile



Good point... safer too, so we can avoid having a singing drummer.



Laughing
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: scott volthause on March 08, 2008, 09:51:24 AM
I know I haven't participated in IMP in a while so I may not have a dog in this hunt, but that sounds like a pretty cool exercise. I'd say that mostly I'd prefer to do it with my own style, but it might make a good learning tool. It might also make it easier to critique knowing what all the mixers were shooting for.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Antman on March 08, 2008, 10:10:27 AM
I haven't had the time to partake in the IMP's for the last few months but this idea seems cool.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: T. Goodwin on March 08, 2008, 11:38:11 AM
I'm all for it. It will end up being very different from the other IMPs. How would the reviewing process go? Would we note the differences between the two? Would you explain how you got certain sounds?
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: ATOR on March 08, 2008, 11:55:06 AM
I've just finished my IMP16 mix, am I still in time Very Happy


If we'd have J's mix we could do some comparative improving on our own mixes before submitting it.

We would also have a roadmap so the IMP would focus more on the 'how did you get there' and not on the 'where did you go'.


I think it's nice for a change.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Gabriel F on March 08, 2008, 11:55:13 AM
i like the idea, but maybe it would be more helpful to do it like a real situation so instead of you suplying your own mix maybe you supply another mix of a track with the vibe you are aiming for ( maybe another hundred years war song).
Like some of us do for example when mixing classic hard rock you check against an ac dc song or something like that.

I mean checking against a mixed version of the same song is very uselful for learning critical listening skills but that situation almost never happen in a normal mixing session.

but i am fine with both ways, i just like to mix and improve my skills.

gabriel fonts.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: WallyWest on March 08, 2008, 03:47:35 PM
I'd be up for trying this out if I have Time. It'd be my first Imp.

As still somewhat of a beginner I think this would help me out atleast.

Nice Idea.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Greg Dixon on March 08, 2008, 04:36:45 PM
I also think it's a good idea. No matter how long you've been mixing, this sort of exercise can only help develop your ear.

It doesn't matter that it's not a real world situation, it's a good exercise.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 08, 2008, 04:42:57 PM
another thought is to give you guys the song to mix, then halfway through the week i could post my mix for comparison.  that kinda seems like a pain though.  you'd be making lots of changes after you already had something you liked.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: mcsnare on March 08, 2008, 08:38:13 PM
I'm up for it. It's pretty common in the big leagues for labels to give the same song to several mixers to see which one they like best. The bad part is they used to pay regardless, now they usually only pay the winner. So maybe the exercise could be some scenario like this: The band's manager sez, "Here is the last guys' mix. The band likes it but the label is not totally in love with it. Show us whatcha got and if you can top this you get the gig."

Dave
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 09, 2008, 02:29:53 PM
i like that idea.

i'll get a song put together and ready to go.


Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: rankus on March 09, 2008, 03:49:13 PM
mcsnare wrote on Sat, 08 March 2008 17:38

 Show us whatcha got and if you can top this you get the gig."
Dave


This would be how I would approach it... "beat me if you can".

Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Iain Graham on March 09, 2008, 11:26:10 PM
Not sure how totally into it I'd be, and I'll finally be able to do this IMP, but it will be a fantastic challenge. Which may be what's putting me off....

If you're going to do it in mcsnare's label style, you have to be able to say what's wrong with your mix and how you want it bettered. The label would explain what they didn't like or wanted improved.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Firefly on March 10, 2008, 04:21:28 AM
I'm game. Had a similar experience recently, where a more experienced engineer mixed a couple of tracks on an album and from there I did the rest. Really learnt a lot, especially things like choosing the right spaces...
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: ryst on March 10, 2008, 10:15:16 AM
Count me in!
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 10, 2008, 03:29:45 PM
Iain Graham wrote on Sun, 09 March 2008 22:26

If you're going to do it in mcsnare's label style, you have to be able to say what's wrong with your mix and how you want it bettered. The label would explain what they didn't like or wanted improved.



I'm sort of in agreement with this.

J. is there a particular mix you're not 100% happy about? Probably not.  Laughing

Maybe you could just act like the label/client and pretend there was something you wanted done differently.

"... I really liked this guy's mix, but the [blank] could be more/less [blank]." You know... something like that?

If the mix was perfect, then there would be no reason to give it to another engineer. Right?


Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: T. Goodwin on March 10, 2008, 04:47:14 PM
rankus wrote on Sun, 09 March 2008 15:49


This would be how I would approach it... "beat me if you can".



what happens if we do?  Razz
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 10, 2008, 07:30:48 PM
Iain Graham wrote on Sun, 09 March 2008 22:26


If you're going to do it in mcsnare's label style, you have to be able to say what's wrong with your mix and how you want it bettered. The label would explain what they didn't like or wanted improved.



that's not been my experience, but i'm happy to do that if you want.

i've always gotten, "what can you do with this?"  or, "can you do any better?"  and you're on your own to deal with it.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: SingSing on March 11, 2008, 02:45:19 PM
I think it's a brilliant idea Jason. Though I'm thinking these last IMP's have steered towards more conformity than earlier. Maybe it's the songs or maybe we've learned what our 'audience' wants. But I like the idea of you acting as a virtual "band/manager/A&R/label". As an added extra, maybe namedrop a few bands or songs to put us in the right mood?

Anyways, I'm in.

Stefan
SingSing
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 11, 2008, 03:49:03 PM
SingSing wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 13:45

I think it's a brilliant idea Jason. Though I'm thinking these last IMP's have steered towards more conformity than earlier. Maybe it's the songs or maybe we've learned what our 'audience' wants. But I like the idea of you acting as a virtual "band/manager/A&R/label". As an added extra, maybe namedrop a few bands or songs to put us in the right mood?

Anyways, I'm in.

Stefan
SingSing


let me address a few points here, because i agree with some and think they need some explaining.

1.  IMP becoming conformist:

i think i am some what to blame for that.  the past 3 i've taken a much firmer stance to my own opinions.  i was thinking that being wishy washy and leaving large holes for people to jump through wasn't really helping.

like this, me saying, "i think the kick could use more bottom, but that's just my opinion"  the responses were typically, "well, i like it like that and that's exactly what i was going for."  OR, "i didn't have enough time to really work it"

so, i've decided to take my opinion out of the picture and make it (my opinion) more of a fact based statement.  my hope was to stop getting excuses and start teaching people something.

in doing so, i think people just tried to mix in a manner that wouldn't "bring me out"

ALSO, i think IMP is working.  i'm hearing a lot of improvements in people's work over the last year.

2.  maybe it's the songs:

indeed it is that as well.  i've been picking more "top 40" style songs in the attempt to eliminate some of my opinion as just opinion.

plus i strongly believe that thick guitar rock is the hardest thing to mix well.

i fully plan on returning IMP to a broader brush stroke of genres and art.

i think for this imp i'm going to have a few different submission threads.  a choose your own adventure type thing.

same song, however path one you decided to listen to my mix and try to copy it.  path 2 you listened to my mix, read the text document of things i wanted changed and tried to beat my mix.  path three, you don't listen or read and just mix the tune the way you want.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Adam Miller on March 11, 2008, 04:01:41 PM
j.hall wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 19:49


same song, however path one you decided to listen to my mix and try to copy it.  path 2 you listened to my mix, read the text document of things i wanted changed and tried to beat my mix.  path three, you don't listen or read and just mix the tune the way you want.



Good idea. Any of these options would make for a good learning experience, I think.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: SingSing on March 11, 2008, 04:55:45 PM
j.hall wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 15:49



let me address a few points here, because i agree with some and think they need some explaining.




Maybe it's a language thing...didn't mean to come across as negative at all...I hope you didn't interpret it like that. Like I've said before, I think you're doing a great job keeping the IMP running, and I have had no problems at all with the songs.

With that out of the way.....
With more 'arty' songs there is possibly a broader palette of interpretations, whereas top-40 begs a different position. I guess that's what the conformity wording comes from. Me? I think they're all equally challengning and fun, and I have complete faith in the 'good' quality of the chosen tracks.

All the best
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: maxim on March 11, 2008, 09:33:25 PM
"plus i strongly believe that thick guitar rock is the hardest thing to mix well"

agreed
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 11, 2008, 10:55:46 PM
SingSing wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 15:55

j.hall wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 15:49



let me address a few points here, because i agree with some and think they need some explaining.




Maybe it's a language thing...didn't mean to come across as negative at all...I hope you didn't interpret it like that. Like I've said before, I think you're doing a great job keeping the IMP running, and I have had no problems at all with the songs.

With that out of the way.....
With more 'arty' songs there is possibly a broader palette of interpretations, whereas top-40 begs a different position. I guess that's what the conformity wording comes from. Me? I think they're all equally challengning and fun, and I have complete faith in the 'good' quality of the chosen tracks.

All the best


i didn't take it as negative at all.  just wanted to expand upon the comment and offer up my opinion to those reading.....
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Gabriel F on March 11, 2008, 11:04:47 PM
i dont believe its the songs. i agree with the dense rock is the hrdest to mix, and in my case thats not what i usually mix. i think the problem is this is getting like a routine. and i believe that making each IMP a different exercise with specifics goals and instructions will inject some new excitement.

Gabriel Fonts.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: grantis on March 12, 2008, 03:09:43 PM
J Hall wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 13:45



i think for this imp i'm going to have a few different submission threads.  a choose your own adventure type thing.

same song, however path one you decided to listen to my mix and try to copy it.  path 2 you listened to my mix, read the text document of things i wanted changed and tried to beat my mix.  path three, you don't listen or read and just mix the tune the way you want.




ah ha!  i like this simply because it's combining the best of all the approaches.  that could end up being way cool.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 12, 2008, 03:51:12 PM
i just thought of this as well.

nothing is to stop you from submitting to all three.....

Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 12, 2008, 06:18:18 PM
j.hall wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 14:51

i just thought of this as well.

nothing is to stop you from submitting to all three.....




Nothing is stopping someone from bullshitting either. Going in blind and not listening to the example mix. Not to say that I don't trust anybody... but I don't trust anybody.  Rolling Eyes  There are a lot of egos out there to protect!

EDIT:

I guess it doesn't matter... one would only cheat his own growth!
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: rankus on March 12, 2008, 06:22:29 PM


Awesome idea J!

Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Jimibeen on March 14, 2008, 07:51:36 PM
hey everyone, brand new to the forums and i love this idea! cant wait to give it a shot!
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Eric H. on March 16, 2008, 10:11:58 AM
i think it would be great to have do both:
1 mix as we like, and then trying to copy and improve a mix.
both great exercises to learn.
i feel like i've learned a lot about mixing with the imp tracks, and this new exercise is more than welcome
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: T. Goodwin on March 17, 2008, 08:51:55 PM
So when should we expect this to start?
Are we going to get the normal week, or longer so we can submit multiple versions?
Could this possibly extend into multiple "heats" , with the reviewing taking us closer to our chosen goal?
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: osumosan on March 17, 2008, 11:52:22 PM
I can't wait to try this one myself. I hope I am not too crazed to partake.

Happy St. Patty's day, all.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: scott volthause on March 20, 2008, 12:37:37 PM
Another cool learning tool would be to mix the song in two parts. Part one would be everyone on their own. Those mixes would be uploaded and locked down, but not listened to yet. Part two would be everyone gets J's mix of the song, then starts from scratch (no cheating) and mix again. Then upload and compare both mixes, and discuss how after listening to J's mix how you changed your approach and blah blah blah.

Just a thought. Interesting study of psychology and hearing and stuff.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 20, 2008, 04:03:21 PM
i think you will still have one week.

i think that's plenty of time to do a few versions.

personally i think it will be hard to go your own direction then start over trying to match mine.......but i encourage you to do what you want.

i don't want to hold the mixes back.  there will be three submission threads.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Rob Darling on March 22, 2008, 09:14:13 AM
I learned far more from doing recalls than I ever did watching sessions go down.  I would play tape as I did the recall, channel by channel, and listen as the mix grew under my fingers.  

I'd start by listening to what I was recallng, and then listen as it turned into what it was supposed to be.

Pretty good stuff.

Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 22, 2008, 10:09:44 AM
I learned more from listening to about 5 seconds of Dave "McSnare's" and J.'s mixes.



ps. LET'S ROCK THIS BITCH... I'M STOKED!!!!!!!

PPS.... It seems I have, well... right now free.  Rolling Eyes  LOL
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: M Carter on March 22, 2008, 12:53:42 PM
Something like this would probably help all of us learn our monitoring systems a little better too, huh?

Matt
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 22, 2008, 03:44:32 PM
M Carter wrote on Sat, 22 March 2008 11:53

Something like this would probably help all of us learn our monitoring systems a little better to huh?

Matt



10-4... Especially low end!
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Eric H. on March 25, 2008, 03:12:43 PM
So, what will be the style this time?
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 25, 2008, 03:34:43 PM
hard rock.

it'll be a tune off my band's record.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 25, 2008, 05:21:34 PM
j.hall wrote on Tue, 25 March 2008 14:34

hard rock.

it'll be a tune off my band's record.


So you should have all of the tracks already nice and neat and ready to upload?  Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Iain Graham on March 25, 2008, 05:36:14 PM
Patience is a virtue you know.... Laughing
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 25, 2008, 09:46:57 PM
Iain Graham wrote on Tue, 25 March 2008 16:36

Patience is a virtue you know.... Laughing



... You're exactly right!








So J.


When are we starting?
Laughing
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 25, 2008, 10:14:15 PM
J-Texas wrote on Tue, 25 March 2008 16:21

j.hall wrote on Tue, 25 March 2008 14:34

hard rock.

it'll be a tune off my band's record.


So you should have all of the tracks already nice and neat and ready to upload?  Rolling Eyes



true.  although my internal struggle is holding things up.

do i deliver the tracks exactly as we cut them.  OR, do i deliver the tracks with the tiny bits of elastic audio i've done.

the song i want to put up has a touch of editing, not much, but it makes a big difference if you are attempting to match my mix.

right now i think that giving the edited tracks is the most fair, as it can just keep you focused on sonics.

not trying to put any one down, but the edits are so minimal that i'm not sure anyone would catch them except me, and probably mcsnare.

Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: maxim on March 25, 2008, 10:21:28 PM
give the tracks as you would give them to a mixing engineer...
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: garret on March 25, 2008, 10:34:55 PM
I vote for including the edits.

One way to think of this... I don't believe teaching editing is your goal here.  By delivering them already-edited, you make sure the mix work is about tone, dynamics, and balancing.  

Having the same edits is particularly important if we're trying the "match J's mix" approach.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: M Carter on March 26, 2008, 07:39:37 AM
I'm with Garrett on that as well.  I would think that in most cases the tracks would be edited before the mixing starts, aside from maybe last minute arrangement decisions made by the producer (at least that's how I'm used to seeing things unfold).

Matt
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 26, 2008, 12:19:26 PM
J. I WANNA ROCK.

http://pspupdates.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/14184/kid_crying.JPG
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Gabriel F on March 26, 2008, 02:11:56 PM
any idea when this IMP will start?

Gabriel Fonts.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 26, 2008, 09:47:55 PM
thanks for chiming in guys, that tips the scales.  i'll get the tune packed up and ready to go.  we'll start within the next 5 days.


Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: Boedo Constrictor on March 26, 2008, 11:02:57 PM
COOL!!!!
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 26, 2008, 11:56:15 PM
j.hall wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 20:47

... we'll start within the next 5 days.




GEEZ. I HOPE I CAN WAIT THAT LONG!  Surprised

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n145/valca97/fergie_1.jpg
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 28, 2008, 12:22:09 AM
FATHER TIME SAYS ONLY 4 MORE DAYS!

http://www.happyentertainment.com/images/father-time.jpg
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 28, 2008, 03:46:35 PM
3 MORE DAYS!

http://www.ospreydesign.com/foreword/archives/3-more-days.jpg
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 29, 2008, 10:02:38 AM
ONLY TWO MORE DAYS!

http://garagebandidol.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/days.png
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 30, 2008, 03:16:59 PM
THE SUN 'LL COME OUT... TOMORROW.

http://www.baylessfamily.org/~marissa/archives/PICT1530annie.jpg
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 31, 2008, 10:11:19 AM
COULD IT BE THAT...


http://blogs.guitarworld.com/metalkult/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/titd-axis-cover2.jpg
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: j.hall on March 31, 2008, 10:15:46 AM
the RAR is uploading.
Title: Re: imp17 interesting thought
Post by: J-Texas on March 31, 2008, 10:44:18 AM



I must scream it to the world, my excitement from the top of someplace very high


http://disney-clipart.com/Cars/Disney-Cars-Luigi.jpg