MoreSpaceEcho wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 08:31 |
thomas, has a day ever gone by where you weren't complaining about your clients? |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 00:30 |
Any suggestions????? |
Viitalahde wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 11:10 |
If I were a hairdresser, I wouldn't tell a customer that "I can't your hair because you're ugly". |
MoreSpaceEcho wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 11:31 |
thomas, has a day ever gone by where you weren't complaining about your clients? |
rankus wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 14:08 | ||
For real. Maybe you are in the wrong line of work? |
dave-G wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 23:44 | ||
Well, now we know why you shave your head. (hides) -dave |
Viitalahde wrote on Fri, 07 May 2010 00:43 |
Aerodynamics? |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 23:05 |
About a year ago we reduced our rates for indie non signed artist. That seems to be when all the problems started with some very strange clients finding us and asking us to do work. As of July 1, 2010 we are going back to our normal rates. We may not get as many clients but hopefully they will be bringing in more well done materials. Only time will tell. |
Samc wrote on Sun, 06 June 2010 16:47 | ||
You are a mastering engineer, people don't hire you to like their work or to critique their talent and work. Being so concerned with these things must be taking your concentration away from what should be your only job and concern...mastering. |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Mon, 07 June 2010 13:33 | ||||
Agreed!!! but like most things in life there is no black or white. If the music or the musiciansip sucks then it is not as much fun to work on. I am a professional and I do the best I possibly can for a client no matter what but it is always easier for me master when the music and the musicianship are both GREAT. Many of our indie clients are short on recording experience and technique. We try and help them by having them bring in their mixed tracks before the mastering session so I can listen to them and make suggestions. This is always done off the clock. This lets the artist have another set of ears listening before the mastering session and if there are problems it is a good time to fix them BEFORE the session so the mastering goes along smoothly. |
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I think to say "people don't hire you to like their work or to critique their talent and work" is really not true. Up until the mastering the artist/band may have done everything in house so no one except the artist and a couple of band mates have really heard "their music" and it is sometimes a splash of cold water/wake up when the mastering engineer notices things that may make the album less than perfect or may not sound like they think it sounds. If I had Fleetwood Mac or James Taylor in my studio I would probably treat them much differently since they are established artist with an extensive discography but that is NOT who most of my clients are. Most of my clients are indie artist who maybe releasing their first album and are sometimes clueless in what sounds good or not so good. They trust my ears and my experience to tell them if there are problems or things that should be looked at in the cold light of reality. |
Samc wrote on Mon, 07 June 2010 12:52 | ||||||||
You have made yourself the arbiter of what's good for the band...You might as well be producing their records at this point.
Ok. |
Fibes wrote on Mon, 07 June 2010 14:22 |
Why should it have to be "easy" all the time? All I ever hope for out of an ME is for them to do their best just like i did with what i was dealt. it's incredibly hard to critique a production since there are so many factors that go into it, commenting on anothers work needs to be about the body, not the parts. On the few occasions where I've gotten comments from MEs, it broke down to things like: "Sounds like they were looking over your shoulder on this one- I've noticed you're a little 60hz shy over the course of 4 albums check your room, Alcohol U sounds like a good wholesome Christian band song title and I never have to do much good job." Complaining about stuff is a sign of a lack of character and doing your best no matter what is the inverse. |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Tue, 08 June 2010 02:36 |
If you master something for a client and you don't mention that there is some out of tune sections, that the vocalist is flat for most of one of the songs and that the drums are really really low in the mix I think you are doing the artist/band a disservice especially if they are just starting out which is where many of my indie clients are when they come to me. |
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I am not trying to be their producer but I am trying very hard to help them make a better CD and anything that seems suspect should be at least mentioned IMHO. |
Samc wrote on Tue, 08 June 2010 03:10 | ||||
If I'm not a member of the band or the producer, and especially if I'm not asked, NO...there is no disservice. Giving unsolicited comments about stuff that's not your concern can be annoying and may even be construed as meddling. I don't understand why you need to adopt this paternalistic attitude towards your clients...even the ones who are just starting out.
You're trying hard to help them make a 'better' CD or just a CD that you like!?!? This in my opinion is not/should never be your concern and will only distract you from doing a good job of mastering. |
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So if an artist brought you something that sounded really really bad but you knew that by making a couple of suggestion and maybe having them remix part of their material it could sound much better that you would say nothing and just take their money??? I guess what ever works for you. |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Tue, 08 June 2010 06:34 |
So if an artist brought you something that sounded really really bad but you knew that by making a couple of suggestion and maybe having them remix part of their material it could sound much better that you would say nothing and just take their money??? |
Waltz Mastering wrote on Tue, 08 June 2010 09:50 | ||
By the time a project gets to mastering you would hope the musicality and mixing issues have been sorted out, and that all that's left to do is "master the record". |
Ed Littman wrote on Tue, 08 June 2010 11:03 |
it's all in knowing when to make a suggestion & how to word it...as everything might have someones ego attached. |
Gold wrote on Tue, 08 June 2010 11:25 | ||
Including the ME's ego. It's always possible that the kids are digging some new god awful sound. |
Ed Littman wrote on Tue, 08 June 2010 16:03 |
IMO this is what is part of the job. If they didn't want a remix no prob...go forward. it's all in knowing when to make a suggestion & how to word it...as everything might have someones ego attached. |
Samc wrote on Tue, 08 June 2010 16:34 | ||
I hear what you're saying Ed and even agree with you, but when a mastering engineer declares that his advise will make a client's CD 'better', or make it sound as if they always know (more than the artists) what's best for the them, that sounds very pretentious to me. It even smacks of disrespect for the clients; just look at the thread title... Maybe one day the client's will find a place where they and their work are accorded the same respect accorded to James Taylor...despite their inexperience. |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Wed, 09 June 2010 08:04 |
I find it appalling that some mastering engineers here would hear problems, chose to ignore them or never mention them to the artist, master the music and take the artist's money and feel good about it. |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Wed, 09 June 2010 07:04 |
I find it appalling that some mastering engineers here would hear problems, chose to ignore them or never mention them to the artist, master the music and take the artist's money and feel good about it. |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Fri, 11 June 2010 12:49 |
His voice cracks, he is not on pitch and his phrasing is not working with the songs. |
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The client will not listen to the producer/recording engineer who is basically trying to save him some grief when his stuff goes up on the WWW and he gets some unwanted negative feedback. |
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I get to master the material in a couple of weeks. Not a good situation. |
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Most of his "new" songs sound dated and the accompaniment sounds like it was done in the '80s which it was. |
Patrik T wrote on Fri, 11 June 2010 07:13 |
You ask for tips but it seems you just can not absorb up anything being said here. Regards Patrik |
Patrik T wrote on Fri, 11 June 2010 08:13 | ||||||||
Some of the best songs I've heard had all that.
Maybe because it is his music.
Say "no" if it bugs you this much.
So now you're also into judging what's hot or not? Being a ME? You ask for tips but it seems you just can not absorb up anything being said here. Regards Patrik |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Sat, 12 June 2010 12:33 |
I read very well and I am absorbing everything you are saying but...I don't think I am getting the same courtesy from you. |
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I want to HELP this person NOT just take his MONEY which seem to be a foreign concept to you. |
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I guess it is a cultural difference in the way we interact with out clients. Lets just agree to politely disagree. Fair enough? |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Sat, 12 June 2010 11:33 |
You do things your way and if it works fine. I read very well and I am absorbing everything you are saying but...I don't think I am getting the same courtesy from you. I want to HELP this person NOT just take his MONEY which seem to be a foreign concept to you. I guess it is a cultural difference in the way we interact with out clients. Lets just agree to politely disagree. Fair enough? |
Samc wrote on Sun, 13 June 2010 15:56 | ||
Thomas, I'm really puzzled by this attitude, especially since you came looking for advice. I think it is safe to say that most people here do not agree with your modus operandi, in fact, I have strong feelings against it because I think it's meddling. Trying to make yourself out as the (only) one with the client's interest at heart is a little misleading in my opinion. Even the title of this thread (which you wrote) suggest that you are just out to 'stick' it to the client. By your own account this client has already refused the advise of his producer and engineer, yet you insist on 'helping' him. One seriously have to wonder about your motive(s). For someone who is always complaining about his clients I'm puzzled that you refuse to even entertain the advise/opinions of others. Anyway, that's your prerogative, do let us know how it turns out after you've told your client how much he sucks... |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Mon, 14 June 2010 03:33 |
I guess I am really confused. If you are getting ready to do some mastering for a client and it could be materially upgraded simply by the client going back and redoing some parts of the recording to make it sound much better why wouldn't YOU suggest that to them instead of just taking their money and saying "what the he!!, I got my money and so what if the client did not get the best job possible". If that is the way that most mastering engineers here work (and that is what you ARE saying isn't it) then I think you are short changing your clients BIG TIME. Do what you want to do and do it the way that works for you. I will still work with my clients and try and make their project the best I can make it. If that means telling them that there are things that could be done better then I will tell them that if they say no everything is fine then I will simply master what I am given. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. We are, after all, in the SERVICE business aren't we???? <Just an aside. If I go to my doctor and she tells me that if I would walk some more I could lower my cholesterol and if I stay away from too many carbohydrates I could lose weight I don't say to her "you are meddling in my life and I don't like it." Instead I usually say "thank for the friendly advice" and then it is up to me to decide whether to do anything about it. I really don't see the difference between that dialog and what I am talking about with my clients> |
Samc wrote on Mon, 14 June 2010 03:29 | ||
Thinking that your intervention is always needed to make your client's work 'better', or equating what you do with what your doctor does is the height of presumption in my opinion. I still think...in fact I know for sure now that my original suggestion that you should just produce and engineer for your clients would be the best solution for all your client problems. It is your doctor's sworn responsibility to look after your health, she bares some legal and moral responsibility to do so...THIS IS THEIR JOB! The mastering engineer.....well, If you don't see and understand the difference between what your doctor does and what you do, I don't see the need to even go any further... The part that makes me scratch my head though is that you came asking for advise, and now you turn around and tell the people you don't agree with to go mind their own business... |
Patrik T wrote on Mon, 14 June 2010 09:24 |
I think in music, there are no ideals. Nor are there tracks sounding the same. And I do love that. |
urm eric wrote on Mon, 14 June 2010 16:40 |
`polished to imperfection'. |
Nick Sevilla wrote on Sun, 20 June 2010 11:35 |
A.- If you want to work again for that artist or his friends, then do not say anything further. You have to take the material you get to master as if it is already approved by the powers that be, EVEN IF YOU THINK THEY'RE WRONG. B.- If you do not want to ever work with that particular artist ever again, then by all means, tell him exactly what you think of his singing. then, be prepared for some badmouthing directed towards you from the artist, and expect no more work from that camp. Those, are your two options. Cheers |
Tim Halligan wrote on Sun, 20 June 2010 00:57 | ||
There is an adage from the restaurant business that's kinda apt in this instance: A satisfied customer will tell on average 5 - 10 people; A dissatisfied customer will tell everyone. I guess the moral here is piss off a client at your peril. Cheers, Tim |
lowland wrote on Mon, 14 June 2010 12:15 |
To me the facts are these in order of importance, greatest first: 1. It's not the ME's function to tell clients what to do musically, recording or mix-wise by default. 2. Mastering is a people business and a good ME should have a sixth sense about what is or isn't appropriate to discuss with a customer. Given a situation like the one you originally described, Tom, I would follow my instinct: it rarely lets me down. |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Mon, 14 June 2010 12:46 |
If an architect draws plans for a building and a mechanical engineer sees that there maybe problems then it is up to them to inform the architect of the potential problem. If an electronic engineer designs a piece of equipment that maybe hazardous to the person using it then another engineer who sees the potential problem should make the first engineer aware of the problem so it can be fixed. |
Dale Francis wrote on Sun, 20 June 2010 14:10 |
Yes I read the title and took it with a tongue in cheek |
JimK wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 22:33 |
.....or how to tell a ME his grammar sucks! |
Harland wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 23:48 |
Tom, just going on the title and content of the original post, a person would have to conclude that you were at the same relative level of professionalism as your client. Can you imagine how that long time client is going to feel if/when he reads this thread? It's a betrayal to post that up for the world to see. Which doesn't lend any credibility to your claim that you want to help him. Anyway, the answer to your question is obvious - if you really do care about him then talk to him openly, honestly, from the heart and tactfully, with a ton of consideration for the sensitivities most artists have. That conversation is the one you should have had instead of this one. |
urm eric wrote on Tue, 22 June 2010 12:42 | ||
Or: `how to tell *an* ME his grammar etc ...' Cheers, Eric |
dcollins wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 20:25 | ||
The expression is "crisis of conscience" anyway...... DC |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 22:04 |
This client completely redid the vocals. They sound GREAT and I get to master his material this weekend. FYI besides being a client this is also a good friend whom I have known for years. MTCW and YMMV |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 22:04 |
To those of you that do mastering of marginal materials and just take peoples money without giving them anything of real value in return |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 21:04 |
To those of you that do mastering of marginal materials and just take peoples money without giving them anything of real value in return I personally think you are doing a disservice to your clients and their music. I really care about my clients and I care that they are coming to me, as a professional, to help them and not just take their money. I am sorry if what I do bugs you. |
Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 09:07 |
When I get comments like: Just do the job and send the invoice. It's that complicated. I begin to question people's motives. Are you trying to help your clients realize their dreams or just profit from them? |
Waltz Mastering wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 07:32 | ||
I think it's a bit unfair to insinuate this:
Of course there's no ME that gets ONLY stellar projects. That is a myth imo/e It seems like you are saying that it's the ME's job to critique the production, recording and mix and if the ME does not give an honest opinion and remedy to the client, then they are doing them a disservice? Taking a personal vested interest in one of your friends projects is one thing, but...is it now the ME's job to be the central scrutinizer? |
urm eric wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 05:34 |
A friend of mine advises me that you should never say anything behind someone's back that you wouldn't say directly to his face; but just between you and me, I think he's a bit of an arse. |