Al
Oh Thanks.
Al
Al
I am looking for a workhorse, to marry the OCL2 in the compression department.
| Noah Mintz wrote on Mon, 26 May 2008 14:30 |
Al
ha!!!!ha!!!! 
Updating the list with models and prices:
a) Great River EQ-2NV Mercen. U$2900
MEQ 2NV U$4100 (!!) (eliminated)
b) Avalon AD2055EQ U$2450 (eliminated)
c) Crane Ibis U$3750 ( see it is a favorite among MEs)
d) Millenia NSEQ-2 U$3149,99
e) Ted Fletcher P9 U$2999
GML8200 - GML9500 - Prism Maselec -
Manley Massive Passive - Fairman Tube EQ (all over U$4000!!!)
| zmix wrote on Mon, 26 May 2008 09:33 |
The TF Pro P9 is a nice piece, no pots! Evey control is a switch,..it can be complemetary to a more surgical digtal EQ
|
Yeah. While I don't use it on every record, it's a good complement. Plus, it got a bad review in EQ magazine, which is worth something right there.
I thought the Ibis was quite harsh sounding, I've been surprised that people don't comment on that.
The Avalon that I tried, probably 10 years ago; hated it. Not as bad as the compressor, but really weird sounding to my ear.
The NSEQ sounds great, I use it literally every day, and it's not that expensive.
For around USD$4000 you could get a custom Barry Porter paramedic, which has even replaced the revered Sontec, in some rooms.........
DC
| dcollins wrote on Mon, 26 May 2008 21:20 |
For around USD$4000 you could get a custom Barry Porter paramedic, which has even replaced the revered Sontec, in some rooms.........
|
*clears throat audibly*
Hi, DC
In fact a member of Gearslutz mentioned on a PM that the top end was somewhat harsh.
Brad and You recently substituted the Sontec for the Harry Porter EQ, right?
Harry Porter
LOL
Here is part of the PM I received:
"Concerning your list (as I studied and studied before making my purchases).
- The Great River I think has a similar circuit to the Mic pre, which is great but can be a little teethy/edgy. Especially when boosting top end. I've heard it before in samples of the eq. It must be in their transformer or something.....anyway I lost interest in it.
- The Ibis I have heard from many respected MEs that the high end is just not that good. You could ask Dave Collins about that.
Apparently it will do fine with maybe 1 db of boost, but then get edgy after that.
- All of the Avalon gear I've heard is too pillowy, which would drive you crazy for mastering.
Nothing worser for me than losing all the transients you've worked so hard to maintain just by putting a soft sounding eq in your chain.
-Some people like the TF Pro piece, some people hate it. I had the stereo comp for a while, it had a nice action but the sound of the box itself was very cheap."
i had a P9 for like a minute... i was one of those ppl who did not like it.
also, i did not like using the NSEQ, but i loved the sound and always wanted to hear the forrsell mod.
i really wanted one of those barry porter EQs, but unexpected financials didn't make it happen.
you may want to think about the api 5500
i think the 550M modules sound better and are worth the extra bux.
but, everyone has their own opinions.
Al
Oh, Sure!
The P9 has been pointed as being noisy. DC, what were your impressions about it? electronics, S/n?
Also, The Drawmer 1961. does it deserve to be in the "list" ?
May I ask who is making all these statements against EQ's that are used by respected mastering engineers? I mean, if it's just some internet commando, think about it - I stand behind my decision to use the Ibis, and I trust (completely) the decision of DC to use the P9.
IOW, not arguing from authority, but you need to weigh the perspectives of what you read...
In the end, just go to Gearslutz and watch the w**kers debate endlessly about their gear. All the differences multiply by x1000, good gear gets a crap reputation and the thing with the pimpiest front panel wins the price..
Yeah, where can i get me one of those Harry Potter EQ's?
(i heard they're magic)
| bblackwood wrote on Tue, 27 May 2008 13:26 |
The Barry Porter did indeed replace one of my Sontecs in my chain.
|
Replaced one is the key word, I can't imagine needing 2 Sontecs. Brad if you could only keep one which would you keep, the Barry Porter or the Sontec?
Matt
Al
| Matt_G wrote on Tue, 27 May 2008 07:58 |
| bblackwood wrote on Tue, 27 May 2008 13:26 |
The Barry Porter did indeed replace one of my Sontecs in my chain.
|
Replaced one is the key word, I can't imagine needing 2 Sontecs. Brad if you could only keep one which would you keep, the Barry Porter or the Sontec?
|
The BP - my other Sontec is on long term loan to a friend...
Hi, Brad
I am not bashing nice gear I would dream to have.
There are several opinions which somehow help me a lot, because I do not have access to test them.
If it weren't for your advices, (mainly you, DC, Bob Katz) I would never have the OCL2.
Different points of view also coming from here:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/200065-first- hardware-eq-mastering.html
AS I checked there too, someone else also doubted the person who mentioned the P9 as noisy.
Al
| Quote: |
The BP - my other Sontec is on long term loan to a friend...
|
You are a generous friend Brad!
Way to be.
Ok!
I know I'm still a relative newbie (and haven't posted for a while), but just wanted to say that my BP is in final testing, and might get to me by the end of the week. I'm excited.
I dig my Ibis, but not the high shelf. My word choice would be "exciter-like".
I've found using a bell shape to be more pleasing.
| T. Mueller wrote on Tue, 27 May 2008 19:45 |
I know I'm still a relative newbie (and haven't posted for a while), but just wanted to say that my BP is in final testing, and might get to me by the end of the week. I'm excited.
|
You're gonna' love it.
delete
bab
I'd probably get a Fosselized NSEQ2.
| Bob Olhsson wrote on Tue, 27 May 2008 20:43 |
I'd probably get a Fosselized NSEQ2.
|
It would rock.
DC
| dcollins wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 05:49 |
| Bob Olhsson wrote on Tue, 27 May 2008 20:43 |
I'd probably get a Fosselized NSEQ2.
|
It would rock.
|
"A sound carved in stone"
| Viitalahde wrote on Tue, 27 May 2008 23:21 |
| dcollins wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 05:49 |
| Bob Olhsson wrote on Tue, 27 May 2008 20:43 |
I'd probably get a Fosselized NSEQ2.
|
It would rock.
|
"A sound carved in stone"
|
Anyway, it's spelled Forssell!
www.forsselltech.com
Scandinavians had an early auto-repeat function on their keyboards.
DC
I've never heard any rackable Forssell products, but his JFET amps are cool for sure. I think a few of them will find their way inside a new EQ..
OT, but not without interest: I just had a nice note from Fred Forssell saying that his new top-range mastering EQ has been held back so other products can come through, but that he hopes to have a prototype by the end of the year.
Fred Forssell NSEQ-2 is the name of the hardware eq?
Thanks
Al
Oh, I see. I thought I had mistyped because I had already seen this same name model from Millenia. LOL
What is the maximum Q setting you can get with the Forsell reissue?
| dcollins wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 00:49 |
| Bob Olhsson wrote on Tue, 27 May 2008 20:43 |
I'd probably get a Fosselized NSEQ2.
|
It would rock.
DC
|
I'd be petrified to hear that.....
Al
Thanks, Jerry.
But Q goes to 4. So for a more surgical procedure you guys probably use a second EQ or some digital box like the Weiss or.... plug-ins?
Al
someone has a Sontec 250 for sale, in the Saloon Forum on PSW>
http://web.mac.com/gcelis/Killer_Gear_for_Sale/choose_your_s ecret_weapon%21.html
bab
| bblackwood wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 10:37 |
Al
| minister wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 19:30 |
| bblackwood wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 10:37 |
Al
| minister wrote on Thu, 29 May 2008 01:30 |
| bblackwood wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 10:37 |
Al
Brad, I need Q=11
LOL
BTW.. I found this about the Sontec 250, old thread from 2006:
"i would be wary of the Sontec...it may be unrepairable...as they used custom op amps...and may be out of business. anyone know where Burgess Macneil is??"
I use to own the GML9500, it's a great EQ. Shot it out against the Sontec years ago at Sony. They were so similar I went with the GML because George was always open and honest with me. He truly is a great guy.
I also use to own the Millenia EQ. Another great EQ but put the tubes in it that Fred designed it with Amperex Bugle Boys and Mullard 4004 military grade tubes. It really opens this little monster right up. And hey you get two EQ's in one. I'd probably still have this unit if I didn't end up owning my current (last 10 years) EQ...
Now the EQ's I use on the analog side are strictly for broad brush strokes and character. The Pultec EQP1A3's and Sphere 920 graphic EQ's. When I want to get surgical I use my Weiss EQ1 MK2. They all do their jobs well and they are all different from one another.
I asked Chris Muth what his Favorite EQ's are since he has been in so many mastering rooms throughout his life. He too seems to like "character" EQ's as he recommended an old ITI 230 and in the new world The Great River mastering EQ. Said they aren't lifeless and boring like the surgical analog EQ's used in mastering.
Here's the other thing to consider. Each piece leaves it's own sonic stamp. Listen to the box with nothing going on. In other words if it has a bypass button put it in and run the material into it while switching it in and out. Do you like the sonic stamp it imparts? Over the years this factor alone is what makes me keep a piece of equipment or move on.
+1, Larry!
| Silvertone wrote on Thu, 29 May 2008 07:49 |
I asked Chris Muth what his Favorite EQ's are since he has been in so many mastering rooms throughout his life. He too seems to like "character" EQ's as he recommended an old ITI 230 and....
|
I was in a day session recently with Chris and George Marino.
George uses the very first ITI 230 and that thing is so amazing it's ridiculous. Apparently Burgess drove this one up to NYC himself after the first couple caught fire! No stepped switches on this thing.
Some of the "whoah, what was that?" moments in the session where when the ITI was put to use. Of course, being George Marino didn't hurt.
We have a modified ITI-230, re-capped with 6dB boost/cut and extra frequencies. It's the top EQ in this mods page http://www.jlmaudio.com/neveracks.htm
It's such a unique EQ, kind of dark but very musical. I use it in conjunction with the Maselec MEA-2(which is very clean).
Bit pricey at $3500, They go for around $2000 at the moment. I think Thermos has a Sontec 250C for sale on gearslutz.
FYI Burgess is back in action so you can get them repaired.
Burgess will likely sell you a new 250EX for the same price, or that ballpark anyhow.
| hnewman wrote on Thu, 29 May 2008 22:39 |
Burgess will likely sell you a new 250EX for the same price, or that ballpark anyhow.
|
$2890 for a 250EX is what his price list at AES 2007 in NYC showed.
I purchased my EX used for $1850 including shipping. To me the ergonomics of seperate controls for each function are much better on the EX than the B or C models (which have concentric knobs for Q & Frequency choice). So again - over $3g's for a 250C seems way high to me.
fwiw - Dan Zellman was repairing Tony Maserati's ITI 230 recently and he showed me the insides of it - definitely way heftier of a power supply on that thing than the MEP250EX and a bit more going on in terms of its signal path as well. Paraphrasing the ITI Audio literature (viewable at http://www.totalsonic.net/sontec.htm ) according to Burgess the ITI is stronger in its colorations and effect while the Sontec smoother and somewhat more transparent.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
| hnewman wrote on Fri, 30 May 2008 12:09 |
Burgess will likely sell you a new 250EX for the same price, or that ballpark anyhow.
|
This is via an email conversation with Burgess:
"EX costs a bitt less than US$3K delivered in the U.S.
Out of this country we deduct US$50 from the price which partially pays for shipping."
He said they are almost ready to go.
There you have it. I will say that I have one of the "new" 250EX's already and really like it, although I had to mod it to make the gain controls useful in a mastering environment, and would definitely not want it as my only EQ.
Pretty interesting!
I will ask a friend's gal to bring it inside her panties.
Al
| Ben F wrote on Fri, 30 May 2008 00:12 |
Al
Hi
I am still waiting for some price qotes from brazilian sellers.
However, I have found here:
1)Drawmer 1961
2)Klark Teknik DN410
3)Great River Eq2Nv
4)BSS DPR 901
5)API5500
Would you guys use any of them for professional mastering?
An Avalon Box (2055) costs here something like U$7000 which is ridiculous high fr a so-so product.
Any inputs are wellcomed!
Dave, one of my fav episodes..... My wife and I still say "HUGE" like in the show whenever we use the word.
Dave
Al
I have got reasonable prices for the Drawmer 1961 and the API5500.
But will wait until next week.
| Adam Dempsey wrote on Sat, 31 May 2008 23:02 |
I know Carl Saff or others may chime in regarding the 5500..
|
Sure, I'll chime in!
I've had it for nearly a year now, and I can say that I like it. I don't love it. While it excels in some key areas (great in the lows and low mids), I find myself using it less and less in other areas (in the high mids and highs, especially). Therefore, I'm finding myself feeling that it's not a terribly well-rounded EQ. Don't get me wrong... it sounds good across the board... just not exceptional, outside of a couple of ranges. By comparison, there are very few ranges where my Massive Passive and NSEQ-F don't sound brilliant.
So I find the 5500 handy as a couple of extra low/low mid bands when my other EQs are tied up... but I do find myself thinking about replacing it with something more well-rounded. And probably, by necessity, more expensive.
Cool!
I was trying to examine the API5500 (standard model) front panel on the web and I can not see a button to set Q. It says it uses bell shapes only and there is a switch to vary gain from +-12 t +-6 r to +-3.
a) So how can it be used as a main EQ on mstering? SO you must use their factory fixed curves...
b) Today I finally discovered what is the HAMMER. A 3-band-per channel equalizer produced by A Designs. HAs anyone here ever used this product?
http://www.adesignsaudio.com/hammer.html
Al
Al
| Bob Boyd wrote on Tue, 03 June 2008 13:57 |
Probably another casualty of having the PQ in the rack.
|
It's really that good?
Can you describe the tone?
| Phil Demetro wrote on Tue, 03 June 2008 14:49 |
| Bob Boyd wrote on Tue, 03 June 2008 13:57 |
Probably another casualty of having the PQ in the rack.
|
It's really that good?
Can you describe the tone?
|
It's a really powerful and very flexible EQ. I find it to be the best general shaping tool I've heard (so far). And I love having 5 heavily overlapping bands. The top end is detailed in a way that may not work for everything. That said, it can be amazingly articulate and save the day on somewhat veiled material and also excellent when needing to remove top end without overly dulling transient detail. And it's dead quiet.
The PQ and the Massive (which I typically run M/S) compliment each other very well.
Long term, I can see adding a Sontec MES-4XX but in the interim, I'm replacing the API 550m with an MEP-250. Great little EQ. I had one in here for a few days. It was enough for me to see why people like that flavor - sounded great, dialed quick - but not enough to kick the PQ out the door. Each had their place.
(I just got yelled at on the other forum for drastically changing topics so I might as well keep on misbehaving!)
Bob,last question. I promise
Why did you pick the 250 Sontec over the ITI?
Just Curious? Been thinking about getting one myself. I don't need no stinking switches...
| Phil Demetro wrote on Tue, 03 June 2008 15:37 |
(I just got yelled at on the other forum for drastically changing topics so I might as well keep on misbehaving!)
Bob,last question. I promise
Why did you pick the 250 Sontec over the ITI?
Just Curious? Been thinking about getting one myself. I don't need no stinking switches...
|
No particular reason. Would love to hear the ITI sometime. The 250 (either flavor) is probably something Al
Al
Thanks, Andy!
| Bob Boyd wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 08:19 |
Would love to hear the ITI sometime. The 250 (either flavor) is probably something Al
| Bob Boyd wrote on Tue, 03 June 2008 17:19 |
No particular reason. Would love to hear the ITI sometime. The 250 (either flavor) is probably something Al
Hi, Matt!
This thread is really helpful. Thanks for the thread Alecio.
I am in the process of setting up a mastering room here in INdonesia. All these while, it's been done 'rock and roll style'. I'm hoping that I could learn a thing or two from this forum.
I have read that the Sontec and ITI is still being made today. Does anyone have the contact for Mr. Burgess?
How important is the transfer console in your way of working?
I am curious about the M/S process realized in analog domain in your chain. How often and so...
You wellcomed!
It might be a good thing for a few folks who use the M/S EQ technique on a daily basis to do a simple explanation of their process here. Many may not understand how it is implemented.
Al
| ribbonmicguy wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 03:10 |
This thread is really helpful. Thanks for the thread Alecio.
I am in the process of setting up a mastering room here in INdonesia. All these while, it's been done 'rock and roll style'. I'm hoping that I could learn a thing or two from this forum.
I have read that the Sontec and ITI is still being made today. Does anyone have the contact for Mr. Burgess?
How important is the transfer console in your way of working?
|
Sending you a PM.
| compasspnt wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 09:06 |
It might be a good thing for a few folks who use the M/S EQ technique on a daily basis to do a simple explanation of their process here. Many may not understand how it is implemented.
|
In my experience, I can find the EQ I'm looking for a bit easier/faster if it's in S/D. Instead of two hands for left and right I just turn the Left side (Mono in this case & the bulk of the modulation is there anyway)of my Sontec EQ and turn until i find what i want. Then it's a question of more or less. More often than not the Right side (difference) follows to the same frequency.
I often see the settings of an independent ME who works afterhours in my room and the L/R or S/D settings bear no semblance to each other. It's weird.
The can be a real danger in mis-using this technique. You don't want to diffuse the sound or image or power of the track. Don't overthink it.
After many many years of compressing in S/D I don't anymore. Dessing is really effective with this method to take out some glare off the top end of the middle without collapsing stuff on the outside.
I can see the advantage of using a non-stepped EQ for correction and creativity using this style, as well.
| Phil Demetro wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 12:33 |
I can see the advantage of using a non-stepped EQ for correction and creativity using this style, as well.
|
That's why I started using M/S EQ in the first place. I have an old set of Telefunken EQs that just don't track well but work fine in M/S.
GR
| Phil Demetro wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 03:33 |
After many many years of compressing in S/D I don't anymore. Dessing is really effective with this method to take out some glare off the top end of the middle without collapsing stuff on the outside.
|
I'm with you Phil, I think it's very easy to screw up the balance of the stereo image if you compress S/D. I am looking forward to the S/D upgrade to the Weiss DS-1 though so de-essing can be set up in this way. In L/R mode you often find that you get the threshold right & it gets the mono stuff but if there is delays or reverbs they normally get through.
Al
| Matt_G wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 09:03 |
* For those that are still learning the lingo S/D (Sum & Difference) is the same as M/S (Middle & Sides).
Matt
|
I'm using a proprietary hybrid approach: S/S.
| Bob Boyd wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 11:00 |
| Matt_G wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 09:03 |
* For those that are still learning the lingo S/D (Sum & Difference) is the same as M/S (Middle & Sides).
Matt
|
I'm using a proprietary hybrid approach: S/S.
|
That's funny?
It's not mentioned anywhere on your website? 
it's a secret.
Thanks, MAtt!
| Bob Boyd wrote on Fri, 06 June 2008 01:00 |
| Matt_G wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 09:03 |
* For those that are still learning the lingo S/D (Sum & Difference) is the same as M/S (Middle & Sides).
Matt
|
I'm using a proprietary hybrid approach: S/S.
|
Damn man, don't be giving those sorts of techniques away on a thread like this. It took me years to learn those tricky S/S techniques...
BTW...
I am almost fishing a Crane Ibis EQ ( factory model).
BTW... I find its panel a bit polluted for the eyes.
why not skip those musical notes?
Another final candidates are the Drawmer 1961, although rarely used among people here and the standard Millenia NSEQ2, without the FF card.
| Matt_G wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 18:53 |
| Bob Boyd wrote on Fri, 06 June 2008 01:00 |
| Matt_G wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 09:03 |
* For those that are still learning the lingo S/D (Sum & Difference) is the same as M/S (Middle & Sides).
Matt
|
I'm using a proprietary hybrid approach: S/S.
|
Damn man, don't be giving those sorts of techniques away on a thread like this. It took me years to learn those tricky S/S techniques...
|
And I thought it was those tricky S&M techniques that you had down.
Ed
If you had to pick only one unit, would you choose:
a)Crane Ibis - standard model
or
b)Millenia NSEQ2 - no forsell mod
I like gear that you may color or not the sound. And these 2 boxes seem to provide me this. Millenia has 8 Equalizers while Ibis has 10.
So, what is your opinion?
I might be picking one box very very soon in this U$3000-U$3500 range, which is my budget.
I have already eliminated Drawmer 1961, API500 non mastering version, Avalon 2055, Ted Fletcher P9 ( could not find it), Great River non mastering mod.
Thanks
| Ed Littman wrote on Fri, 06 June 2008 13:09 |
And I thought it was those tricky S&M techniques that you had down.
Ed
|
Not much difference actually, similar techniques apply... the goal is to spread wide & retain a solid centre image... if you know what I mean
| Matt_G wrote on Sun, 08 June 2008 09:04 |
| Ed Littman wrote on Fri, 06 June 2008 13:09 |
And I thought it was those tricky S&M techniques that you had down.
Ed
|
Not much difference actually, similar techniques apply... the goal is to spread wide & retain a solid centre image... if you know what I mean
|
Well, after reading this post:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/201533-master ing-pros-how-do-you-use-m-s-processing-improve-already-good- mix.html,
I guess you and I are the only ME's that might use a touch of this for a teeny, weeny bit of stereo enhancement !
My analysis of the average major label CD tells me that NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM had any m/s enhancements added at the mastering suite, unless of course the mix had to be fixed  (big fat tongue in big fat cheek).
Yeah I read that & had a chuckle... I don't like the sound of spreading with M/S very often although it can come in handy in certain situations on occasion. But I do like what M/S EQ can do to enhance not just repair a track. I can't hear too many negatives using this approach over normal L/R EQ techniques yet the benefits are obvious to me.
Matt
| Matt_G wrote on Sun, 08 June 2008 08:04 |
Not much difference actually, similar techniques apply... the goal is to spread wide & retain a solid centre image... if you know what I mean
|
Wow.
| Matt_G wrote on Sun, 08 June 2008 08:44 |
Yeah I read that & had a chuckle... I don't like the sound of spreading with M/S very often although it can come in handy in certain situations on occasion. But I do like what M/S EQ can do to enhance not just repair a track. I can't hear too many negatives using this approach over normal L/R EQ techniques yet the benefits are obvious to me.
Matt
|
I agree. I will usually adjust the width only if I think it really fits the tune. Maybe a touch more width to bring out electrics and drum OH or a touch less if the vocal feels buried.
These instances are the exception, not the rule. M/S leveling is not something I regularly look to change. In fact, I avoid it unless I really feel it's an asset. I'm more likely to use subtle M/S EQ to bring out what I need than adjust total width. I will often use slightly different midrange EQ settings between mid and sides. Can very effective at creating a nice focus and clarity.
please tell me that I don't have to explain the whole S&M joke... 
| Matt_G wrote on Sun, 08 June 2008 10:18 |
please tell me that I don't have to explain the whole S&M joke...
|
You said please. I think we know which side you're on.
YOu guys are "M/S...ing" my Thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guys, I am prety happy.
I got a Crane Ibis EQ!
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