Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 28, 2005, 08:24:11 PM
It's a sad day for the industry... those were great sounding rooms when I worked there when it was Oceanway.
Rail
Post by: WhyKooper on January 28, 2005, 09:15:30 PM
......."The studio expects to announce a new owner at the beginning of 2005, and will change its name to Western Recorders. The studio has hosted staff engineers Chuck Britz, Bones Howe, Wally Heider and Lee Hirschberg. The Mamas and the Papas’ "California Dreaming," Frank Sinatra’s "Strangers in the Night" and Bing Crosby, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr., Nat King Cole and Johnny Mercer Lou Adler all recorded hits at the facility....."
Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 28, 2005, 09:23:47 PM
If this was planned then folks who had booked sessions would have been warned... as would the current sessions which were ongoing... and find themselves not being able to return in the morning.
Rail
Post by: Nika Aldrich on January 28, 2005, 10:14:09 PM
Nika
Post by: JamSync on January 28, 2005, 10:28:11 PM
| Rail Jon Rogut wrote on Sat, 29 January 2005 01:24 |
Just heard that Cello.. which used to be Oceanway.. which used to be Western Recorders have closed their doors today. It's a sad day for the industry... those were great sounding rooms when I worked there when it was Oceanway. Rail |
I think most of us knew it was only a matter of time...there were a lot of rumors floating around, but, geez...I hate to hear it.
Post by: 3D Audio on January 28, 2005, 11:17:35 PM
| WhyKooper wrote on Sat, 29 January 2005 02:15 |
Why is it sad? Wasn't this part of the plan announced a couple of months ago?........... |
Saddest probably because they'll turn it into a parking lot or office condo. That's where the money is.
Don't mean to start any rumors. I have no knowledge of the situation at all. It's just that when the studio space can earn more money with blacktop down than with a $3M buildout and isolated spaces, it is sad. I hear from studio owners regularly who have watched most of their recording investments turn into liabilities and the only value left is the real estate. As long as the studio covers its expenses, that works. If not, then it's office condo time. Or worse still, paved-over history.
Post by: Eric Rudd on January 28, 2005, 11:39:52 PM
I wouldn't put it past him!!!
)Eric
Post by: lucey on January 29, 2005, 01:21:06 AM
| Eric Rudd wrote on Fri, 28 January 2005 23:39 |
Watch Allen S. buy it back for a SONG!!! I wouldn't put it past him!!! )Eric |
would be cool ...
Post by: David Schober on January 29, 2005, 01:27:16 AM
I remember working at Studio 55. Tons of great hits there....all the way back to Bing Crosby's "White Christmas." Last I heard it was a parking lot for Paramount Pictures.
(I'm hearing a Joni Mitchell song in my head....)
Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 29, 2005, 01:35:15 AM
I also believe Gower Studios are interested in the property... which means the building will be destroyed.
Rail
Post by: jfrigo on January 29, 2005, 02:35:05 AM
Post by: Curve Dominant on January 29, 2005, 04:12:23 AM
What a bummer.
It makes me worry about the few big houses left in Philly.
Post by: mcsnare on January 29, 2005, 10:31:48 AM
Dave McNair
Post by: Bob Olhsson on January 29, 2005, 10:36:16 AM
Post by: Eric Rudd on January 29, 2005, 10:40:14 AM
| mcsnare wrote on Sat, 29 January 2005 15:31 |
This is really sad. I hope someone takes it over. I worked there quite a bit in the late 80's early 90's and it was always a special experience. That Neve in the back room(studio 2?) has got to be one of the best sounding consoles ever. Dave McNair |
Hey Dave,
The "Arc Angels" record we did together was one of my favorites of our work at OWR.
Still using those crossover-modified NS10s????
All the best!!
Eric
Post by: David Kulka on January 29, 2005, 12:22:50 PM
Not to mention the great engineers and producers...the legendary Chuck Britz (who took me under his wing during my first fitful month there), Ed Greene, Lee Herschberg, Matt Hyde, and of course Bill Putnam himself. And the session players, composers, arrangers...
After leaving there (24 years ago, unbelievable) it became Ocean Way and kept cranking out the hits. I still got called in for the odd job, and found reasons to drop by and visit old friends, it was always a thrill to walk through those big doors and inhale that aroma -- studios have signature smells, don't they.
I showed up for the AES tour a couple of years ago, it was Cello by then and the Control Rooms looked much different, though the Studios themselves were nearly unchanged. It was great to the walk through and watch expressions on the visitors faces as they learned the history of 6000 Sunset. We even set foot in the famous echo chambers including #3, the famous "Good Vibrations" chamber where (now it can be told) I had an encounter with a beautiful young woman so long ago...
The building looked pretty rough around the edges though. Driving away, my wife and I talked about the electrical, the plumbing, the roof, the air conditioners. It must cost a fortune to maintain a big old building like that. Driving past it on Sunset, I always wondered if one day I'd see the wrecker's ball taking it down, or perhaps come back from a vacation to see a vacant lot there. There had been rumors of closings and buy outs, now this.
I'm sad to think this might be the end. Maybe new blood will come in and the place can keep working. The acoustics in those rooms are just incredible. Hearing piano or strings in Studio 1 will give you goosebumps. I hope the place survives.
See my website for some United/Western history and the old United Recording "Newsletters" http://studioelectronics.biz/newsletter.html
Post by: Arf! Mastering on January 29, 2005, 12:53:28 PM
Post by: mcsnare on January 29, 2005, 02:32:57 PM
Dave McNair
Post by: Myerberg on January 29, 2005, 10:30:01 PM
The facility was closed by it's owner by surprise on friday. It is a bankruptcy and this is how businesses are closed and also how they are purchased and reopened. You can be assured that there are people working towards this goal, but I don't know what the future holds or if this goal is even possible. There are forces at work both malevolent and benevolent so throw your good vibe's to the great 6000 Sunset blvd. The great Tradition it stands for: Room as an instrument, a recordable 'Vibe" Always booked, with the best most gracious clients anyone could ever ask for! BILL PUTNAM BUILT 6000 TO LAST! A TOAST TO BILL TONIGHT AND TAKE OUT THE GOOD BOOZE!
To my Blood sister Candace Stewart. We proved that it really is all about the "LOVE"
A big shout out to Mr. Jim Scott THANKS!!!
To anyone who dances on this grave... A Phoenix has been known to rise, wings of fire burn your eye's.
Below you will find the e-mail I had sent to my engineering staff at Cello I feel it sum's up my feelings and no shit I did wake up this way.
Hey,
I woke up this morning California Dreamin' with Jimmy Webb music in my head, Frank's fingers snapping I could smell Dean Martins martini. Nancy's boot's walking down the hall Mr. Wilson's crooked "smile" The wrecking Crew on golden time!...........I was up all night thinking, will all these moments be lost in time like my tears in this rain?? I know this is a fire we all must pass through, on the other side If it is to be Western Recorders and if it is not to be? Well.... we all got the greatest ride there ever was! Because of all of your efforts, 6000 is truly the best it has ever been and we have all served this Legacy proud. In-spite of our owners disinterest Candy and I have done our best with only our wit's to keep the old girl going over these last 6 years and now someone with $$$ needs to take this burden from us.
I just want to thank each and every one of you from the bottom of my heart. Your spirit for this place. Your loyalty to Candy and I gives me pause and great pride.I love you all for it. You are all the finest professionals I have ever worked with. It is my hope that we are all together soon to continue this great mission and serve this great Legacy. If our paths part ways let us always remember the great times and great music we shared.
So drink a toast to 6000 and pray for safe passage though this fire.
My last day as your Chief Engineer 1/28/2005
ROCK&ROLL!!!!!!!
Gary Myerberg-Lauter
Chief Engineer-Director of Technical Operations
Cello Studios
6000 Sunset Blvd
Hollywood,Ca
90028
323-871-5955
323-871-5974fax
Always do right- this will gratify some and astonish the rest."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910)
Post by: Extreme Mixing on January 29, 2005, 11:01:59 PM
We are all wishing the best for 6000. I had the honor of working there a few times, and I loved every minute that I was in the house. I also did a week of 5.1 mixing in the A&M 5.1 Euphonix room before its big change, a few years ago. It is a sad day for this business.
Steve
Post by: profesrgeo on January 30, 2005, 12:28:14 AM
Just a bit of an idea?
Should a wrecking ball, or even the hint thereof appear on the horizon, a local campaign to designate the building an historic landmark may be an effective tactic to prevent disaster.
I know diddly about Hollywood's historic preservation ordinance and its criteria for designation but it would be hard to imagine that 6000 wouldn't pass muster. Chess Studios in Chicago is a landmark. Chicago's ordinance virtually prohibits demolition of a designated structure.
again, just an idea?
geo
Post by: David Kulka on January 30, 2005, 01:06:52 AM
Also Gary (or anyone), looking at the Cello web site today, I noticed that the history page states that the Beatles Sgt. Pepper album was recorded at Western. I assume that the writer meant "part of" the album, but even that's a little hard for me to believe. It's an intriguing claim, though. Comments?
Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 30, 2005, 01:27:01 AM
While I'm the last person to wish any harm to the structure... I highly doubt that would be in the owner's or the creditor's best interests. Most of the creditors are small rental companies and tape suppliers who can't afford to not get paid.
The best bet is that it be placed up for auction and hopefully a studio with a better history of studio management will take over and salvage whatever is left.
I'm sorry Gary.. but you were nowhere near 6000 Sunset during it's "best years". I've heard far too many stories in the last 4 years to even consider it coming close to attaining the stature of what it once was. I'm actually pretty angry at the existing management for placing the property in the precarious position it now faces.
Rail
Post by: djui5 on January 30, 2005, 03:36:28 AM
This is horrible.
I always wanted to work at Cello......dreams are good I guess.
My condolences to all who work there
Post by: Dave Rosen 1st on January 30, 2005, 05:37:39 AM
6000 Sunset is far to significant of a facility to be torn down. It is imperative that a solution is found. Although It is far to early to see if this can be an actual reality I do have some ideas of possible buyers. If anyone has any insight into some of the numbers we are talking about please have them contact me.
In the mean time I look forward to reading postings of 6000 Sunset Stories
from The Cash is King Market" through the Western years, onto the Ocean Way years (especially 1984 -1991 my own personal favorite) and finally the Cello years..
As I think I speak for all that have either worked or performed at 6000 Sunset There is a felling you get from these walls that you can not duplicate anywhere else in the world.
Dave Rosen
World Link Digital
(818) 842-2828
Post by: profesrgeo on January 30, 2005, 09:49:35 AM
It depends. Designating locally may have that effect. In fact the landmark designation process is commonly used as a thwart to redevelopment in my neck of the woods.
Getting 6000 on the National Register of Historic Places would have no effect on the value or saleability of the building (unless local ordinances protect National Register properties). National Register designation simply opens the door to some significant tax releif and does not have any real teeth. I assume the zoning on the site allows a far greater degree of development. The incremental difference in value between the existing and potential develpment forms the basis for the tax releif. The vehicle for securing these tax advantages is a facade donation.
This designation along with the tax releif may make the facility more arttractive to buyer interested in continuing the current use of the facility.
geo
Post by: George Massenburg on January 30, 2005, 10:22:02 AM
And now this...
I'm stunned. We made a lot of great records there. It's almost unimaginable that there wouldn't be a Studio 1 to do an orchestra in (in fact I just mixed a record that had been overdubbed in Studio 1).
But having seen it, I think the roof and structure are rotted away like you couldn't imagine, and I'm not sure that the building's salvagable at any realistic price. I'd like to be wrong.
George
Post by: Eric Rudd on January 30, 2005, 10:42:54 AM
| Dave Rosen 1st wrote on Sun, 30 January 2005 10:37 |
the Ocean Way years (especially 1984 -1991 my own personal favorite) As I think I speak for all that have either worked or performed at 6000 Sunset There is a felling you get from these walls that you can not duplicate anywhere else in the world. Dave Rosen World Link Digital (818) 842-2828 |
Dave Rosen???? THE Dave Rosen!!!???? Wow, what a blast from the past! How are you???
I am very proud to be part of the brotherhood that has worked within those historic walls. My years were from 1987-1994. I started as a "gofer" only days after graduating college and worked my way up to freelance work by the time I moved to Nashville in the spring of 1994.
It was literally my home for 8 years (I often had to sleep in a corner room on some packing blankets because my night session went late and I had an orchestra to set up for the next morning).
I remember going to dinner with Allen Sides one night. We had just finished our dinner and were waiting on dessert when a Frank Sinatra song came on the Muzak of the restaurant. Allen pointed at the speaker in the ceiling and said, "I was there in Studio 1 at Western when that was recorded. I was a runner working at the studio at the time."
I hope that this situation can be remedied and the studio can be saved. It's unfortunate that we are now into a generation who have never experienced studios like these, or the smell of analog tape for that matter.
A request: Those of you (Rail, Dave R., etc) who are out in California, please keep us up to date as you hear things.
Best,
Eric Rudd
Post by: Gil on January 30, 2005, 11:30:06 AM
The last time I was at Cello I literally bumped into Kevin Killen in the hallway. A great place with a great history and vibe - like many others posting here I would hate to see it become a parking lot.
-g
Post by: WhyKooper on January 30, 2005, 12:51:16 PM
Post by: Myerberg on January 30, 2005, 01:32:18 PM
| Quote: |
I'm sorry Gary.. but you were nowhere near 6000 Sunset during it's "best years". I've heard far too many stories in the last 4 years to even consider it coming close to attaining the stature of what it once was. I'm actually pretty angry at the existing management for placing the property in the precarious position it now faces. Rail |
Well what do you really know Rail? You never came by in 6 years. Our owner left us penniless. Allen left us with a building in taters our crazy owner tore out the upstairs!? but we still managed to refurbish all the consoles fix 3/4 of the infrastructure 2/3rds of the roof, the plumbing, 5 ac units and give our clients world class service...Your angry? When we got the building it was fucked! A neglected step child. every cent we made went back into this building.
Am I surprised at your level of disrespect? Not at all, you along with squeeze Chevon and many other ney sayers were always tring to put us down and thats fine your entitled to your opinion as ignorant as it might be...
We were always booked our clients always came back our parking lot full when the rest of the city was idle. Including next door.. Who are you to judge? You listen to hearsay and make it fact. If you want facts Talk to Jim Scott/Don Was/Joe Chicarelli/Ed Cherny/Rick Rubin/Rich Costy/Bob Rock the list goes on and on they have an opinion because they worked here. Is this list enough to trump your BS "stories"
When you worked here did Ocean Way let you bring in bands and record.....No
All my staff got access to the rooms they served we all got to use this great place.
So go ahead and disrespect Candy and I what more would I expect from you.
Honestly I don't have any more time for blowhards you have nothing but speculation you no nothing of the circumstances and are far removed from the scene. but in spite of this you are the first to trumpet our demise and place blame as well
No class kid none at all....
The best years were the putnam years anyway. I take nothing but that knowledge and respect.
Candy and I did our best against all odd's and I am proud of what we did. Your disrespect is noted and expected.
Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 30, 2005, 02:40:06 PM
Allen never owned the building when he ran it as Oceanway... it was put together in the sales package to Cello. The studios and their equipment were in excellent running condition when he sold the facility and remained in that condition until the maintenance agreement with Oceanway ran out. If the building was in such bad shape when they bought it… why did they go through with the deal… or pay over 6 million for the privilege? Candace, John and Holroyd put the package together for the owner… who’s to blame?
I have spoken with some of those people in that list and you may be surprised to know what they really feel about the management and the conditions of Cello in your tenure.
Oh, and yes... I have worked at Cello twice since it was sold (heck, I even have a T-Shirt).
Oceanway has always had a high quality of standard… from it's maintenance to it's assisting staff. I worked at Oceanway for 9 years and never had any downtime in all those years.. if something broke during a session I could work around it, and the problem would be fixed immediately or overnight by the on-site maintenance staff. Whoever came in to work there (no matter their level of engineering experience) would always leave happy with the product and level of professionalism they received.
Yes, I date someone who successfully runs another studio - without having a 6-figure salary or a huge expense account... Someone who would take a pay cut herself rather than not be able to hire qualified/paid assistants and runners. Someone who runs a studio with no maintenance issues and which is old but clean… and a staff who know what they're doing. Someone who is respected by the engineers and producers she works with… and who consider them more than clients... but family. I may add she also took a studio, which had no clients and was in terrible condition and turned it into a studio that runs consistently in the black -- and has one of the best reputations in town. Someone who’s run a studio that has fostered more successful producers and engineers than any other studio I know. Perhaps you can list your management’s experience of running a successful studio -- how many studios has she run which no longer exist?
Lastly, I'd heard a week ago that the owner was going to file bankruptcy -- how come you didn't warn your staff or the clients who were working there?
Hardly dancing on the grave of a facility I love... rather pissed off at the folks who didn't know how to run it successfully.
I absolutely agree the Putnam years were the best years (I never said that they weren’t)... however Oceanway continued that high level of service and I’m proud to have worked there under Allen’s ownership. You’re correct, I didn’t get to bring in my own free sessions... but Oceanway helped to get me my own paying sessions… one of which garnered me both TEC and Grammy nominations for engineering... how many of your staff have become successful independent engineers?
Rail Jon Rogut
Post by: Eric Rudd on January 30, 2005, 02:51:57 PM
| Rail Jon Rogut wrote on Sun, 30 January 2005 19:40 |
Oceanway has always had a high quality of standard? from it's maintenance to it's assisting staff. |
Speaking of which, Rail, where is Bruce Marion these days?
Eric
Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 30, 2005, 02:56:59 PM
Rail
Post by: Myerberg on January 30, 2005, 05:51:25 PM
you cross a line you talk a line. You push the wrong buttons.
I must say I am impressed!! your a regular encyclopedia of misinformation.....With that inside track you should buy Cello...I hardly have time (like you) to go back and fourth. But BS must be answered. I only knew the reality on Thursday so if you knew a week ago you should have called! Shame on you...
Obviously you have your finger in the crack don't you. I can smell it from here, You are plugged in! Your career must be booming. Of course you know that a massive fraud was committed against Cello and has closed 4 other area studios as well as our's. It isn't as you claim mismanagement, we are victims of white collar crime of the highest order. This is Bush America so if your Collar is white you win!!Between this and a disinterested owner we were out of time. Your ignorant words speak for themselves. Kick people when their down...I don't know you but I can tell that you are a class act.(NOT)
I am proud of what I accomplished at Cello, You have no idea because you never worked at Cello....As with any facility, some people like, some people don't. It happens everywhere Oceanway, A&M Capitol you name it. In the end the marketplace decides and in this tight market we had a lions share!
You cannot be a MAN by having the opinion of others. if you don't have first person experience you should humble your opinion because it is only you speaking another's words which goes to the heart of the matter..... Your Credibility!
There are others from your time with a better view. Alan Sanderson, Jon Sorenson, Jen. All understand the difference between how we treated our people and how other studios did their business.
Rail, I don't know you (only your roumor mill) maybe my own experience can explain your problem....I had almost 14 years at A&M but I have been gone for 6. In the day If somebody would tell me A&M is better then ever, I used to shrug with disdain. If someone said It was great I ignored it, if they said it sucked I latched on to it..after a while I realized it was only because of my memories mixed with nostalgia and misplaced loyalty clouding the reality and my credibility..The truth Is I have not been there in 6 years..So it could very well be better than its ever been.
I will leave it there. I really feel that you want the last word so be my guest. I have real work to do, I have kid's to support and a job to find... responsibilities beyond anything you can grasp. I only came to this forum to answer>I have done that.
I am now done with this process. Who has the time.
Bruce is celebrating 20 years at Oceanway doing what he always does making it happen! he is the greatest and I owe him a great debt of thanks. As I do Allen Sides.
There are many people who have credibility and I will always listen to what they say...You just don't happen to have any.
Over and Out of here.
Post by: Mark Ettel on January 30, 2005, 06:33:06 PM
Huh? The best years were when I was there.
Post by: RMoore on January 30, 2005, 06:50:42 PM
Just curious - what was the fraud?
Like most people here (I assume) - hate to see a classic facility get into trouble
Thanks for the info,
RM
Post by: patrick_wilson on January 30, 2005, 08:34:47 PM
My band Weezer has recorded there extensively and it has always been a pleasure. It's very sad that it might be flattened and it's certainly eye-opening to me that the market for studios is so tough.
The big room has the best drum sound when you stick the drums in the little area next to the control room with partitions.
Maybe someone will keep it going but it seems more and more unlikely as I speak with people.
Best,
PW
Post by: David Bock on January 30, 2005, 09:29:10 PM
It would be an absolute shame to loose the structure as it is! BTW, for anyone who hasn't been there, you can get a tiny glimpse of it in the movie, "what's love got to do with it" which was filmed in Studio One (the great big room) and it's iso room.
If I had never worked there I never would have lived to see the day it cost $400k in FOOD ALONE to make a hit record!
Gary, if you're throwing out the ATR 124 remotes I'll take one for my machine.
Regards,
David Bock
Soundelux Microphones
Hollywood, CA
six blocks away
Post by: Geoff Grace on January 31, 2005, 04:44:11 AM
I only recorded there during the Ocean Way years and only a handful of times; but I was there enough to know what would be lost if the building were torn down.
Now, I'm more grateful than ever for Altiverb's Cello Studios impulse responses. Let's hope that's not all that's left in a few months...
Life can sure be strange sometimes - here I am in a virtual cyberspace raising the subject of a virtual Cello Studios. What's next?
Best,
Geoff
Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 31, 2005, 12:49:25 PM
I’m not uninformed, you unfortunately seem to have been misinformed if you only knew about the bankruptcy on Thursday. Perhaps you should be wondering why you weren’t informed... rather than attacking me.
As for the so-called “massive fraud”… I’ll let you explain your issues with the company you claim has done you no good.
I apologize to George for voicing my anger here... but the potential loss of something I hold dear has made me very angry. This has nothing to do with any rivalry between studios – if that were the case I would be happy for my girlfriend who no doubt will be getting plenty of calls to fill the gap left by this.
As those who know me can attest to, I tend to be too blunt sometimes. I’ll let that aspect of this thread drop.
Best regards to all… and I actually wish you well Gary.
Rail Jon Rogut
Post by: Ross Hogarth on January 31, 2005, 01:14:38 PM
We actually are all in this together
In the tenor of where we need to be and need to be going
I am glad and relieved to see Rail bury the hatchet and ask Gary to do the same
I do not want the importance or the greatness of Cello/Ocean Way/United Western
to be overshadowed by the petty bickering of 2 guys that probably actually agree with each other over many of the KEY issues here
Gary, on a personal note, I wish you and your family the best and everyone who just lost their gigs .... I never thought this day would come ....
Post by: Curve Dominant on January 31, 2005, 02:23:06 PM
Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 31, 2005, 03:14:23 PM
| Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 31 January 2005 11:23 |
Maybe someone who's name begins with an R will step in and save Cello... |
Rick would certainly be an excellent candidate for saving the studio... he loves the rooms and definately could afford it. He already has two "studios" though and I honestly don't know if he'd want the headache (or cost) of owning a professional facility.
I'd be happy if he did buy it though.
Rail
Post by: Dave Rosen 1st on January 31, 2005, 03:38:55 PM
If I can be any help to any interested buyers please contact me
Dave Rosen
World Link Digital
(818)842-2828
I am only interested in helping those who will keep 6000 Sunset a recording studio
Post by: Mark Ettel on January 31, 2005, 04:15:01 PM
I just thought I'd chime back in since I have a little time to type. Having been the first engineer to be hired by Allen Sides to work at Ocean Way when we just had Studio B in the back of 6050, I was there as we expanded into Studio A, then over to the 6000 building. I have a lot of memories in those spaces having worked hundreds and thousands of hours in all the rooms during the 80's and 90's. I fully transitioned into mixing for film in 1994, but still have many friends in the music business. I think Cello's situation is just symptomatic of:
A) The massive theft of intellectual property (songs) on the Internet. The simple fact is that Cello (and other studios) couldn't make enough money. If the record companies, artists and producers that book studios can't make money because their product is being ripped off, that = less money for future production. One of my best friends, Jay Baumgardner, who I helped get started in the studio business with NRG Recording, arguably one of the best studios in the country, doesn't have the quadruple booking/waiting list he had a couple of years ago and has had to hold off on some expansion plans (he's doing just fine though). Internet theft has hurt the business tremendously.
B) Technology. I remember when we got our first Ampex ATR-124 at Ocean Way. I think it was about 80 grand, and that was 1981 money (I'll have to check with Allen about the exact dates, but he's out of town this week). Then we bought one of the first GML fader automation systems (hi George!). It was so expensive (100 grand I think) it was the first time Allen had to get an equipment loan. Man, for 100 grand, now you can get a Pro Tools system with 192 tracks, 100% automation and recall, every plug in, a nice control surface and still have money left over to convert your garage into a control room. Which brings up the next point;
C) Technology. A large facility like Cello can't survive by artists booking a week of time to record drums and then do everything else at the producers home studio. Which of course he had to build because the record budgets are so small (because of point A) that he can't afford to do all the work at a commercial facility. There will always be a place for a few mega-studios that have incredible service and state of the art gear (like Ocean Way and NRG), but the good old days are gone forever I'm afraid.
Post by: Curve Dominant on January 31, 2005, 04:24:31 PM
Yes, his first name also begins with an R.
I just figured the person who we are initialing might appreciate having a professional studio at his disposal.
In addition to his living room.
Post by: Geoff Grace on January 31, 2005, 04:32:01 PM
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Best,
Geoff
| Quote: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Originally posted by Mark Ettel: Hello Rail and all. I just thought I'd chime back in since I have a little time to type. Having been the first engineer to be hired by Allen Sides to work at Ocean Way when we just had Studio B in the back of 6050, I was there as we expanded into Studio A, then over to the 6000 building. I have a lot of memories in those spaces having worked hundreds and thousands of hours in all the rooms during the 80's and 90's. I fully transitioned into mixing for film in 1994, but still have many friends in the music business. I think Cello's situations is just symptomatic of: A) The massive theft of intellectual property (songs) on the Internet. The simple fact is that Cello (and other studios) couldn't make enough money. If the record companies, artists and producers that book studios can't make money because their product is being ripped off, that = less money for future production. One of my best friends, Jay Baumgardner, who I helped get started in the studio business with NRG Recording, arguably one of the best studios in the country, doesn't have the quadruple booking/waiting list he had a couple of years ago and has had to hold off on some expansion plans (he's doing just fine though). Internet theft has hurt the business tremendously. B) Technology. I remember when we got our first Ampex ATR-124 at Ocean Way. I think it was about 80 grand, and that was 1981 money (I'll have to check with Allen about the exact dates, but he's out of town this week). Then we bought one of the first GML fader automation systems (hi George!). It was so expensive (100 grand I think) it was the first time Allen had to get an equipment loan. Man, for 100 grand, now you can get a Pro Tools system with 192 tracks, 100% automation and recall, every plug in, a nice control surface and still have money left over to convert your garage into a control room. Which brings up the next point; C) Technology. A large facility like Cello can't survive by artists booking a week of time to record drums and then do everything else at the producers home studio. Which of course he had[/I to build because the record budgets are so small (because of point A) that he can't afford to do all the work at a commercial facility. There will always be a place for a few mega-studios that have incredible service and state of the art gear (like Ocean Way and NRG), but the good old days are gone forever I'm afraid.[/Quote] Post by: Extreme Mixing on January 31, 2005, 04:37:42 PM I'm not very happy about seeing the great studios vanish. I don't know what I could have done to make things different. We all have to make choices based on our own self interest. It is a sad state of affairs. Steve Post by: Mark Ettel on January 31, 2005, 05:27:31 PM Post by: Level on January 31, 2005, 05:33:29 PM Lets look at this model and even see if it could be (hypothetically) workable. Think about it. Lets suppose 6000 Sunset could be divided into 20 workstations and have several really good rooms available for all to book time in and schedule around each other for tracking. Lets suppose the building costs about 70K per month to deal with. (all costs) The building I was in (Whole floor of a tower) was right at 60K/month. This means each workstation would have to Net at least 3500.00/ month to break even, before equipment costs. No one is getting paid yet at all. I base the 70K/month on todays real estate rates of a buyout of 6.5 million and we have not even talked about remodeling the facility for 20 workstations or even getting the subleasee's in the building. I know these are totally inaccurate figures to throw around and it is hypothetical but suppose it was cut into 20 workstations with common recording areas, how many would even be able to spend 3500/month for a space to do your work..providing their would be 20 "studio set-ups" and if those figures are even anywhere close? A facility like this costs around 600k to 800K a year to operate..unless it is paid in full to begin with. With taxes, personell and electricity, you see how hard it is for a facility like this to survive. Even if we half the figures and half the number of studios within a complex, it is still 3500 per month each, before a penny is being made. Folks, full scale facilities are extreamly expensive to operate. I pulled these figures out of the hat and they are simply for some form of comparison. I have looked into this type of venture and the figures are not that far off, could even be low. Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 31, 2005, 05:38:22 PM True, but managing a studio in this climate takes skill and hard work.. knowing your clientelle and what they can and can't afford. It's certainly not the time to do wild expansions and install new high priced consoles... as you said, the budget's aren't there.. unless you're hooked into one of the high profile mix engineers who will book the room full time. It also means balancing your running costs/overhead against your income -- and tightening your belt. These are indeed lean years for everyone. The budgets are set up to spend almost nothing on tracking and overdubs.. but huge amounts on mixing. As for Cello I don't think they had a chance going into this.. they paid way too much for the property and the contents. They didn't buy the Oceanway name. Their best bet would have been to sit back for the first year and make as much money as they could with barely any overhead.. they had no rent or lease payments. It certainly wasn't the time to jump in and start major construction and raise everyone's salaries sky high. The business was doing well at that time and 6000 was a working succesful studio. They also had a maintenance contract with Oceanway so they had no outside maintenance costs to factor in. I was shown an article in today's Valley paper announcing the closure of Can-AM.. another studio I've spent some time in. It's definately time for producers to challenge the labels and help out the studio owners.. and try and get bigger budgets for tracking.. or there won't be any large tracking rooms around. The demise of the large facilities will also endanger the art of recording.. since where are the next generation of engineers going to learn their art? Certainly not from any of the engineering schools or via the internet. Best regards. Rail Post by: Mark Ettel on January 31, 2005, 06:21:47 PM Rail, good point on the overblown "executive" pay. I think this is a problem at the record companies too. Huge executive pay and not enough put in to developing talent. >The budgets are set up to spend almost nothing on tracking and overdubs...< Yeh, this is bad. All the best, Mark. Post by: David Bock on January 31, 2005, 07:24:31 PM Post by: henchman on January 31, 2005, 07:58:38 PM
Letr's not forget the exorbitant out of control fees that some producers charge to do a single track. Let alone a whole record. Everyone wants the big upfront payout. So there's no money left in the budget. So they keep throwing otu these lame cookie cutter records, since it doesn't matter if they sell, as they've made their money in advance anyway. Post by: C_F_H_13 on January 31, 2005, 08:08:04 PM I grew up in some shit hole town in B.C. Canada. When I was a punk ass 18 year old, I decided I wanted to be an engineer, and started putting in motion my plans to do so. My big idea was to email anyone and everyone I could, from studio managers, engineers....anyone who I could get contact information for and ask them for some pointers. I sent out 57 emails....I got 3 responses....Ron from the warehouse in vancouver, a guy from hensen (sorry forgot your name!!!), and Gary of Cello. While the two other gentlemen's emails were somewhat...ummm....disheartning, Gary's email was very upbeat, personal, and insightful. Throughout the next couple of months, I kept in contact with Gary and he was always willing to answer my questions. Finally about 6 months later, me and my father made a trip to LA to check out some schools and take a nice vacation. I gave Gary a call at Cello, just to say hi and told him me and my dad were in town. He quickly responded "Well come on down man, I'll give you the tour!" Gary showed us all around the rooms, and was more than willing to spend some time talking to me, and easying my dad's fears of me trying to get in the business. Aside from Gary, the staff that I did meet on this and two other trips to cello, were always cool and equally willing to share knowledge. I had always been looking forward to being able to repay Gary for his time and effort by doing some work at Cello....oh well...I'm sure he'll land on his feet somewhere else.... It's always sad to see a business close, but more so when it's such a well known facility. RIP CELLO... Post by: WhyKooper on January 31, 2005, 08:22:05 PM Doesn't matter. IMO it's all gonna go. The "art" of recording won't die. But this wheel is in full motion. It all started when the white coat EMI days ended and it's been gathering steam ever since. How many people could afford a three track multitrack machine in 1962? Look where things went in the 70's. Look at the splintering that began in the 80's with the accelerating technology pace. Look at where things are now. It's a natural progression. The old "system" is fading in the sunset fast. Today music. Tomorrow, movies. Watch where we'll be in two decades. The old days are over. Big rooms are over. Big equipment is over. This is going to filter right on down from rooms to suppliers to engineers to producers. The next generation of engineers are engineering right now. Mostly at home. Mostly with no training except for whatever feedback they pick up from the other ten bazillion engineers working at home now. Five bazillion of them might be creating junk. But the other 5 bazillion are creating very interesting stuff, however they're figuring it out....and sharing the knowledge. For free. On software/conditions that are repeatable for any number of people. Who then also learn. All these people doing this...who don't do it to make a living. This is snowballing. There were not ten bazillion people sitting around in 1975 with MCI 24-trakcs in their garage. Whether anyone likes it or not, the technology is firmly in the hands of the masses. The masses who don't need budgets but do learn from earlier works. The masses who can get distribution without budgets...or income for that matter since production of music on all this great mainstream technology ain't the "day job". In this evolving "convolution everything", most everything I can think of that's associated with the production of music is on the way to extinction. Studios. Suppliers. Engineers. Producers. Music is a teeny tiny slice of the available entertainment pie. It's all different than when there were only three tv stations and one Billboard chart. Nothing is going to survive this evolution. In fact, ProTools HD WILL be an eight hundred dollar item at Sears a decade from now. There's no way it won't be. The writing on the wall is so simple. I could see that so clearly just by walking around with all those other 70,000 people at Namm last week. Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on January 31, 2005, 08:52:02 PM
I was just given an update to this.. no surprise, the newspaper article is not exactly acurate -- Can-Am are looking for a buyer, but the facility is still available for sessions. Rail Post by: Curve Dominant on January 31, 2005, 09:30:39 PM
NOT PRODUCERS!!??? Damn! What about cooks? Do you think cooks will become extinct? Post by: WhyKooper on January 31, 2005, 09:44:00 PM Actually, in terms of securing a career with liveable wages, aspiring cooks may have an edge over aspiring Producers. And I might have quoted a little high on what Protools will be selling for when it hits the malls. I might seem flip with my comments, but I've been around this stuff since 1962 or so. I just don't see how this industry is going to pan out any other way. I don't see it as a sad thing...just the way it's going to go down. Post by: Lee Blaske on January 31, 2005, 10:24:07 PM
Well, if 70,000 people were walking around NAMM, I'd say that NAMM might survive the evolution - at least for awhile. There's obviously going to be some kind of business servicing all the wannabes.  By and large, I unfortunately agree with your pessimism. I do think, however, that extremely motivated people with passion who can adapt will find a way to scrape by. It's going to take a LOT more hustle than before, though, and more focus on business. It's mind numbing how much the industry has changed over the years. Looking at that record, it's impossible to truly predict where things will be 10 or more years from now. Forces that we're not even aware of will shape that future. Heck, the Apocalypse could happen, and it will all be moot. Lee Blaske Post by: Level on January 31, 2005, 10:42:14 PM As a matter of fact, the 7 Universities that are near me get service, with their rooms from yours truly, when tracking for such an event. The cost is minimal. Rooms are so important...and the best playback system is also dependent on the room as well. We will evolve into our niches of favorite acoustic spaces and talents we have. I like to see the gear slutting, go away somewhat because their is nothing out there that can compensate or recreate an actual room or a set of vintage killer microphones plus engineers knowing how to use them...and the TALENT to project into them. It truly is a VIBE VS Economic feasibility issue going on. Yes I hate to see nice set-ups like 6K go down..but their are alternatives that do well and the technology is there for mobilization. Post by: supafuzz on January 31, 2005, 10:42:22 PM
I just read your insightful quote on the closing of cello and am wondering If you would allow me to post the quote on the tape-op message board. I think you hit it exactly that everything we know is changing and will continue to change as a result of the power of knowledge and the sharing of information. I remember the days when all you had was the local music store and the faint hope that one of the sales people knew a little bit of information that you could absorb. Or you had to find a book or go to the library to answer any question or apprentice somewhere for years. The closely guarded secrets are out.[ no matter how hard the old school guys like Rudy van Gelder try to hide them]. oh yeah I'm one of those bazillion who's toiling at home.. but still supporting based tape systems [as well a P-tools] thanks harley fine www.harleyfine.com Post by: Level on January 31, 2005, 10:47:05 PM That is all it is about. It don't come easy but it happens. It will continue to happen. It will happen...time and time again. Post by: Curve Dominant on January 31, 2005, 11:41:11 PM
Agreed with 100%. A bazillion peeps with $400 HD M-Boxes are not automatically going to produce a bazillion recordings that lots of people will want to pay for. My take, is that the producers of the future will be guys and gals who are good at identifying talent, and nurturing it to marketable levels. Then hopefully, we'll make enough $$$$$$$ to eventually invest in building (or buying) rooms like the ones at Cello, in an ever-evolving quest to increase production value. Which would bring the cycle swinging back to where it started in "the good old days." That's the "optimist" view of this situation we're in now. In times like these and in light of these events, it's good to remember the Hagakure chapter about "the spirit of an age":
Post by: Curve Dominant on February 01, 2005, 12:13:34 AM
Bill, This antecdote goes RIGHT to that point you just made: Just this past Saturday night, I took my lady to a modern dance performance at the Wilma Theater (http://www.wilmatheater.org) in the heart of Philly's theater district on the Avenue Of The Arts. It's a wonderful little 300 seat venue, very newly designed and built. The opening improv piece featured a solo pianist with a single ballet dancer. Halfway through the piece, I leaned into my girl's ear and whispered, "Ooohhh, the acoustics! I have to record something in here!" The second dance piece featured a solo upright bassist + improv dancer, and again, I was thinking, "OOOH!!! WHAT A SOUND! I HAVE to record something in here!!!" Then I remembered: Thinking the EXACT SAME THING at a service at the Rodeph Shalom Synagogue on North Broad Street a few years ago, and then later at a wedding service at the Church Of The Holy Trinity on Rittenhouse Square last year. There are amazing acoustic spaces, everywhere, right under our noses! Here we are lamenting the closing of a commercial room...as if it was the last? It's not. They are everywhere. You hit on it, Bill. We just have to go to these places, strike deals and times, set up our mics...and make it happen! In music (as in life), what do you do when you get lost? Improvise. Post by: David Kulka on February 01, 2005, 12:19:24 AM Learning that 6000 closed was awfully bad news to me, but there's been some consolation in seeing that I'm not alone. I didn't expect this thread to gather so many replies, or this much concern. Well, we all know that Protools was inevitable and has totally transformed our industry, and that there's no way back. But I disagreed with the statement "Today music. Tomorrow, movies. Watch where we'll be in two decades. The old days are over. Big rooms are over." Hey -- Warners, Universal, Paramount, and Skywalker are doing just fine, and I expect they'll continue to. I mean, home studio; yes -- home sound stage; no. And this raises a question. When I was at United/Western in the late 70's, record projects accounted for maybe half the sessions. The other half was movie scores and big TV specials (high dollar union projects) and voice-overs. Now granted, ISDN and home facilities have surely cut in to the V-O jobs, but what of the other projects? Maybe the rock and roll vision (the overwhelming theme on this forum, and others) is a bit limited, and disconnected from economic realities? Now, shifting gears a bit, there's one factor in 6000's troubles that I don't think has been mentioned -- the Hollywood audio exodus, which is nearly complete. I was a tech at Western, and an independent tech/contractor afterwards. In the beginning (1981) most of my work was in Hollywood, with a few odd jobs on the West Side, or in the Valley. Now it's the opposite. 80% of my work is in Valley, the West Side and "out of town" account for maybe 10%, Hollywood almost zero. In fact, during the last two years my out of state jobs far exceeded my work in Hollywood, and the last big job there entailed helping a studio move from there to Burbank. This is a little ironic, because Hollywood actually looks better now than it did in '79. Back then the view from the front door of United/Western was hookers and homeless, and women needed to be walked to their cars. Hollywood really is much improved these days...but maybe it's too late. My wife and I were driving Koreatown for dinner last night. (And BTW, K-town exploded and flourished the last ten years, the exact opposite of what we're discussing. But that's another story -- or is it?) Anyway, I took the Sunset exit and stopped in the red zone in front of 6000 for a couple of minutes. Locked tight of course but other than a trash bag sitting in the lobby, nothing really looked out of place. A big sign on the door said that Western Recording was coming this Fall. Clearly it was left over from last year, and Western had never arrived. I thought of the Cello web site, where the most recent news item seemed to date from last April. What's been going on down there over the last year or so? The sign and web site seem to hint that things began sliding some time ago. And what's the story with this big mystery client that sent the place into bankruptcy? I''m left with a deep feeling of sadness. The numbers thrown around in earlier posts are probably about right. How do you make a place like that work these days? There may well be an answer, but I don't know what it is. My brothers and I are selling a large commercial building at the moment, as the elder sibling I have been looking for new investments that might be worthwhile. Over dinner last night I talked with my wife, wondering if there was some crazy way my family could get with other investers and breathe new life into the place. All my ideas were dead ends. Perhaps some person or group with a lot more vision (and cash) will come along with a business plan that works, and do 6000 right. I sure hope so. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. We'll all be waiting and watching, I'm sure. P.S. Next reply here, will attach some photos. Post by: Eric Bridenbaker on February 01, 2005, 12:32:52 AM So a home studio is fine, but there will still be a need for properly treated environments, and not everyone has regular access to a country barn or church after hours. Very sad to see any great sounding room get closed up. I love the way those country snare drums sound in there. Cheers, Eric Post by: Level on February 01, 2005, 12:46:15 AM The places I record in, you don't need soundproofing. Independent structures, far away from the noise or neighbors. I have a buddy building a 18000sq ft situation in the middle of a corn field in lower Alabama to test Peavey speakers at concert level. He also will have rolling acoustics. Improvise. That is what we all do all the time. Those with rules play a game that is certain defeat..in the arts. Funny thing, I crossed to "mastering only" in 98 and I do more production now than I ever did. Really. It is like this, you cross to a different path and all the old stuff comes back and gets exercised all over again. Don't you just love it? No hijack, but I was contacted by a cat that played and wrote with Ellington (a monster) today to archive, properly his 102 songs that were hits. Done deal. You just never know. Indie is strong with the web. 6K was a fine place. I hope to see a "model" of economic feasibility work out...but I have seen whole lots go down because of a lunch meeting too. The art will keep improving as long as those who care, still have opportunities to be involved. It is the old ones that need to be seeked, found and documented folks. Post by: Curve Dominant on February 01, 2005, 01:28:14 AM
Bill, How Zen Warrior of you, with a classic line like that! I always felt the beauty of this industry, was that there are no rules, only those which one can make, re-make, bend and break at will. As long as it works, feels right, and makes things happen.
Indeed. After years of producing urban music, a southern/country rock artist came to me from the south for production last year. I thought she was crazy, but I don't turn down work these days. In the middle of the project, I remembered all those years in high school jamming to ZZ Top, Allman Bros., Johnny & Edgar Winter, Led Zep III, et al....and then suddenly the whole project came together. Now, HipHop is turning to old-school rock&roll for inspiration. And so is country music. Like you said, Bill...What goes around comes around. That's why I don't see the end of anything here. I just see things coming back around. Which brings me BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND... I hate to say this, but from my view as an artist, it is relevant: The studios were/could be, sometimes, part of the problem. Overblown budgets, overblown salaries, high overhead, obstinate engineers resistant to new and unorthodoxed methods and ideas... That last bit is in no way directed to present company. I have the highest regard for GM, Rail, Bill, and countless other legendary recording engineers and producers on these forums, from whom I've learned invaluable wisdom. But let's face it: There was a business model in place which begged to be destroyed and replaced. I saw it happening years ago, and got into a fierce argument with Fletcher about it in the fall of 2000 on the MusicPlayer forum. We have to be like water, and flow with where the music is, at all times. So it's not in the big old-time studios right now. So be it. Where is it? Go find it, right now. The future is not coming towards you, it is moving away. Sometimes you have to run to catch up with it, so it is important to stay in shape so you can run fast if you must. Post by: drumsound on February 01, 2005, 01:57:48 AM Post by: Level on February 01, 2005, 02:12:34 AM
I like the philosophy of, If you are up to your ass in alligators, it is time to remind yourself, why you did not drain the swamp. Also, Life hauls ass. Instead of keeping up with it, stay ahead of it..and grab hold of that which scurries faster than you can run. Post by: captain54 on February 01, 2005, 03:39:18 AM Great performers and performances can be recorded anywhere and an audience will sniff it out... You can't swing a dead cat these days without finding someone with a home studio rig...out of all of those, the ones that will stand out are the ones that are lucky enough to have the opportunity to record great performances and not get in the way.... Legendary recording rooms, gear, and engineers have brought us to where we are now....I think we are seeing them passing the baton... just like the baton was passed to them I was fortunate enough to have time to sit in on some of the seminars with some recording legends at AES last October, and what I got out of all of it was that all the rules were meant to be broken... In the end, a recording is, was and always will be about capturing great performers.... Post by: Ross Hogarth on February 01, 2005, 12:23:48 PM this is the way of the future here in LA, the property is worth more than the lives and the business and the history and it all comes down to a bottom line ..$$$ here is a picture of Leeds Rehearsal studio which was another one of the great spots of great music in LA, it is connected to a block which was Amigo Recording, the Warner Brothers studio that lost the battle a few years back ..Leeds lost the battle this past spring .... Post by: Level on February 01, 2005, 12:34:31 PM (The irony being, look who sells the product) Post by: ted nightshade on February 01, 2005, 12:47:54 PM Damn shame about Cello. Post by: RMoore on February 01, 2005, 12:53:31 PM Of course everything has a birth, life & death - studios included.. But all I see is de-evolution & mass extinction..of animals and culture.. If the days of a great room, great gear, great techs, great designers, great arrangers, great musicians, great vibes, great songs - all working as a TEAM are to be superceded by the one guy, one found room, one mic, one PT rig vibe... how is that going to be BETTER for creativity & great musical ideas and performances to be translated onto a recorded medium.. ? Post by: Bob Olhsson on February 01, 2005, 01:00:40 PM The best studios have been the ones that consistently produced the best results. It isn't a matter of rules, it's a matter of how well what people hear in the studio relates to what one's fans hear. There has been little progress and arguably even regression in the art/craft of studio building. I suppose in a sense, one has to have been there but those of us who HAVE been there know how much the confidence of knowing what you are going to end up with can bring to a performance. Yes, it's all about performance but there are definitely factors that help or hinder a performance no matter who it is. Post by: ted nightshade on February 01, 2005, 01:32:09 PM
Only in some cases will it be. And why does it have to be a PT rig? I know it so often is, but there's more than one way. And don't knock the one-mic! =) We're have so, so much baggage as an industry- "this is the way it's done on a pro session"- "this is what a commercial record sounds like"- all that. Bob, I hear you on the confidence thing. That's why I think I'm sticking with back porch recording from here on out! YMMV... Post by: Gil on February 01, 2005, 01:36:22 PM
Well, George Martin and The Beatles made a pretty good team - one guy (in a white lab coat!) and 4 musicians. Elvis was originally recorded with one microphone - it forced the band to be better musicians, as you couldn't "fix it in the mix". If you flubbed a note, the whole band had to re-do the entire song. Woe be unto you if you were the one who flubbed the note. Before music became the "music business" is was just about the music. If you wanted to hear it, you had to go out to where it was being played. With the advent of studios and stereos (hi-fi) we tried to re-create spaces and environments and venues to make it sound as good (or better) than it did live. (Interesting that now we are trying to re-create the same in software modeling for our DAWs) But it all comes back to music, and I think there is more music being created now (good, bad, and otherwise) than ever before in history. And ultimately this is a good thing - people are creating music, blending styles and genres and discovering their talent (or lack thereof) by pushing the boundaries in their own home studios. The power is back in the hands of the person (or persons) creating the music, for better or worse. If Ocean-way closes in the future will Jack Joseph be out of work? Or will he pack up and move his "vibe world" and set up shop somewhere else? 6000 didn't miraculously appear - it was the result of creative minds seeing a need, creating a solution and fulfilling it, evolving as the need evolved. If the need has evolved past the infrastructure and expense that 6000 had become, then 6000 should have downsized (like many other industries had/have to) and followed the need in its evolutionary path. I spoke with a Nashville studio owner who recognized the evolution a few years ago and modified his studio to embrace the trend, beefing up his rooms for short-term recording of live drums and other hard-to-do-right-in-the-home-studio instruments, and setting up mix rooms and Pro Tools suites and adjusting his rates accordingly. He conveniently offers a la carte, fill-in-the-gaps services for all the Nashville cats who do the rest of the stuff on their own. All of us have been impacted in one way or another by the changes in our industry, and have had to evolve or die. Some of us are just dying slower than others!! Post by: Eric Bridenbaker on February 01, 2005, 02:04:51 PM It is interesting to note just how this post is getting into some deep core beliefs. Seems that there are a number of practitioners that don't find any value or simply can't afford what a proper room provides, and an entire industry is receding because of it. It would be unfair to expect an entire generation of upstart engineers, producers, musicians, labels etc to go broke in an increasingly competetive environment when they can't afford it. On the other hand, it is really sad to see these traditions fade as a result of recording arts becoming more accessible, affordable and hence more mainstream. Looking at the big picture, there is some hope in the fact that TOTAL quantity of good sounding recordings, and good engineers, is actually MORE than ever before. Previously "Arcane" careers in recording arts are now more readily accessible, which IMHO will be a good thing in the long run for the business as a whole. I feel that forums such as this one are doing the most important thing here, which is making an education availiable to this new generation. The passing down of this knowledge is commendable, and those that are spending their time here really are the stars. It will be the responsibility of this new generation to see to it that these facilities and recording history in general is carried into the future. I sense that there are enough out there to ensure this happens. Cheers, Eric Post by: Joshy on February 01, 2005, 02:07:32 PM Post by: henchman on February 01, 2005, 02:13:49 PM
I'm sorry Eric, but you have no idea what you are talking about. You haven't spent thousands of hours working in professional facilities, with clients breathing down your neck. And stop acting like every engineer in these places is rigid and resistant to new ideas. When the budget allows it, engineers will do anything and try anything. The fact that people are blaming the recording budgets on the demise of the industry is ridiculous. The recording budgets even on expensive records pale in comparison to the costs of videos and promotion. If you want to see who is responsible for the demise of these great facilities that at one time were also the trainingn ground for people who were serious about becoming an engineer, walk over to the mirror. The day when everyone started accepting pro-sumer substandard digital recording gear as "good enough", was the beginning of the end. And I have news for all the recording schools as well. Guess where you're headed. Once the glamour and chance to work with REAL pro gear is stripped away, as well as the lack of available jobs, recording schools will start dropping like flies as well. Post by: henchman on February 01, 2005, 02:17:41 PM
I disagree. I find the current quuality of records today mostly appalling. Where will these new engineers get their training? From an instructor in a school, who has never worked in a pro environment, and graduated 2 years earlier from said school himself? I don't think so. Post by: Level on February 01, 2005, 02:23:53 PM (good grief) Post by: Ross Hogarth on February 01, 2005, 02:42:42 PM
Do you really think that the land barons of Los Angeles are going to stand by and watch their prime real estate on Sunset Blvd become a museum ? Post by: Joshy on February 01, 2005, 02:46:56 PM Post by: Nika Aldrich on February 01, 2005, 02:56:02 PM It is also hard to compare recordings like those of the Beatles with albums of today. Frankly, I'm not much of a fan of the Beatles recordings when I separate the sound of the recording from the influence that the recordings had in their day. What we seem to be lacking today is a push on the envelope that will one-day be regarded as a significant advancement in the art of recording. For an album today to truly stand out as an advancement of recording engineering it is going to have to break through a much larger field of people who are all trying to do just that. Watergate taught the lowly reporters in the field that if they did their job well and got the good scoop they could become an international sensation. Now you have 165 times as many reporters all trying to do that, and the more that happens the less ANY of them has a chance of getting good, genuine, unique scoop. Just the same, Sir Martin taught the world that it was possible to be revolutionary in producing audio albums. Now we have an exponentially increased quantity of recordists trying to do just that, and in effect, nullifying their opportunity to do so. There have always been a lot of really mediocre and even bad sounding albums. I haven't heard anybody complimenting the great sonic achievements of The Band, Bread, The Little River Band, Blue Oyster Cult, Black Sabbath, Yvonne Elliman, etc. There are a lot more today. There are also a lot more albums today. Nika Post by: Nika Aldrich on February 01, 2005, 03:27:01 PM Post by: captain54 on February 01, 2005, 03:49:21 PM
While I have normally been on the performing end rather than the engineering end, I can honestly say that having confidence in knowing the studio has produced consistently good recorded material has not necessarily been the deciding factor in whether or not I have recorded a killer track.... And then again, there have also been the occasions where not being able to have an engineer who was flexible in their technique has hindered the creativity of the performance... that being said, I would be an idiot to prefer to record in Joe Blow's basement as opposed to a session with Steve Albini, it's a brand new day and I consistently hear outstanding results coming out of project/home recording rigs.... Post by: CCC on February 02, 2005, 12:33:28 AM I just read the thread about the status of the studio and wanted to tell you how sorry I am about the news. In one of your posts you mentioned my name, along with Al and Jen, as a few of the staff people (along with Mike Scotella) who worked at OWR then went to Cello in 99 when 6000 Sunset changed hands. Gary, as one of the few people somewhat familiar with the inner machinations of BOTH OWR and Cello I have to say that I have the greatest respect for you and Candace and the work you did with the studio (and will continue to do as other options present themselves). I thank you for the honor of working with you, for the opportunities that you gave me, and for the energy and enthusiasm that always infuses your work. And as I freeze my ass off through another Canadian winter I fantasize about driving to another exciting session at Cello on a warm, sunny California morning..... On another note; Now is not the time to draw adverse comparisons with other facilities and their owner/managers - now is the time to feel damn bad about this and hope for a turnaround - and worry about what is happening (or has already happened) to pro audio. I remember a conversation I had with Candace years ago - a competitor studio was in financial trouble and I made a wisecrack about it. Candace said, rather solemnly, that we shouldn't enjoy the misfortune of a rival studio because the demise of rivals is a symptom of a wider set of problems in the business. It's the "canary in the coalmine" analogy. Finally, let me offer my kind regards to the lovely and talented Ross Hogarth, Rail, and Dave Rosen (and of course the Godfather - George Massenburg). All the best, John Sorensen Post by: Dave Rosen 1st on February 02, 2005, 02:15:55 AM When studio 1 was Altiverb Sampled was it an empty room?? I always found the room sounded best with a certain level of stuff. baffles, chairs, people etc. I personally have never heard the digital version of the room. Is it close ?? Another thought maybe a recording school could take the studio. They seem to still have more students then ever. They receive an endless stream of state funding to churn out the recording engineer of the future. Post by: Level on February 02, 2005, 02:30:59 AM I am not interested in moving right now. Low?/High? If this is touchy, I understand. I do think it would be nice to see a approximation on what it would take for value sakes. Just curious. Post by: PaulyD on February 02, 2005, 03:06:12 AM Maybe have everyone buying in agree to submit to board of director approval for the sale of any "shares" if someone wanted out. If a single investor in the group started buying up other investors' interest over time, so be it. The goal is to save the place, right? I wonder if there is enough passion, capital and drive to do it right from these very ProSound Web forums? Lord knows the board of directors would not want for qualified personnel. Of course there would have to be a compiling of information and a presentation on the amount of debt being assumed, the feasibility of running it at a profit, a business plan and a time frame to turn it around. It would be utterly tragic to see a studio with so much history fall by the wayside. I know; I'm crazy. But I still like to dream big dreams... Post by: Kentish on February 02, 2005, 09:21:26 AM I can't really say more; but this isn't a joke. The age of the "Professional Studio" is coming to an end. How are we all to continue to support our families? One of the big studios over here in Paris filed for bankruptcy protection just last month as well. 
Post by: Eric Rudd on February 02, 2005, 10:27:16 AM
The character of the impulse response is comparable....it *sounds* similar to studio 1. To my ear, the sound doesn't have the same size or body that I remember getting from sticking a pair of M50s in front of a drum kit, or the orchestra, or ....... Eric Post by: Lee Blaske on February 02, 2005, 01:03:33 PM If not Apple, how about Digidesign? How about Mixerman (if his book turns out to be a success)? With a structure of that historical importance, you would think that somebody influential would step forward to save it -- somebody wealthy enough to not be overly concerned with the bottom line. Rich people put up buildings for all sorts of purposes. Surely, there must be someone out there that could take this on as a pet project. Lee Blaske Post by: drew on February 02, 2005, 01:32:15 PM Post by: WhyKooper on February 02, 2005, 01:35:16 PM Post by: Nika Aldrich on February 02, 2005, 01:47:27 PM Having said this, Paul seems like the type of guy that likes to put money into investments that yield soceital progress and advances in technology. I don't see Cello as the right project for him. Perhaps? He certainly has passion for the industry - or at least recording for fun. Nika Post by: Rail Jon Rogut on February 02, 2005, 01:57:56 PM The owner of Cello is supposed to be worth somewhere around $500 million... most folks with money still want the company to be self sufficient. They're not going to buy a facility with only 2 running rooms (I understand the console in studio 3 isn't owned by Cello) and be expected to dump money into it indefinately. Paul Allen's yacht: http://www.studio440.com/projects_yacht.htm Rail Post by: RMoore on February 02, 2005, 03:04:15 PM
That Drumcore looks interesting, Think of all the out of work drummers, I too think people with $ tend to want to make MORE dough with their investments.. Post by: Gil on February 02, 2005, 06:00:16 PM Okay, so I'm at NAMM, listening to this killer new Orchestra sample package, very realistic. The developer tells me they spent over a million dollars, rented the famous venue for 6 weeks, hired a full orchestra and sampled each and every last one of the musician's to the nth degree, then spent 6 months editing the samples. I'm sitting there thinking what it must have been like to get the call for that gig - "Hi. We'd like to hire you to play for 6 weeks, during which time we are going to sample every nuance of your performance so that we can put out a software package that will replace the need for you." On the one hand, it's 6 weeks of work. On the other hand, it may be the LAST 6 weeks you'll ever work. What a world. -g Post by: David Bock on February 02, 2005, 07:52:58 PM BTW, I'm looking at a business card given to me last AES from Mr. Tony Valenziano reading: "Western Recorders" 6000 Sunset etc. What happenned to that deal? Post by: David Kulka on February 02, 2005, 08:26:02 PM Chuck's in the traffic office, with United/Western's lobby behind him. You can see the two clear door handles on the big double doors leading out to Sunset. The stairway in back led up the the second floor where The Crusaders, Peter Yarrow, and hilarious voice over man Joe Nixon had their offices. Post by: David Kulka on February 02, 2005, 08:33:16 PM As Mary Hopkin sang: "Those were the days, my friend / We thought they'd never end..." Post by: David Schober on February 03, 2005, 01:22:11 AM
I was fortunate to have worked in Oceanway in the Allen Sides days. It was a wonderful environment with top-notch staff. I'm a bit in the mourning process myself, while at the same time connect with Eric's quote above. These kinds of rooms, like most things were made by necessity. In those days one needed a large, good sounding room to make a great recording. (Putnam may be the greatest of all time in my book) Capitol A needed a place for Sinatra, Nat King Cole and others to knock out great performances with a killer orchestra blowing down a superlative arrangement from the likes of Don Costa or Nelson Riddle. They served that kind of music well. Here in Nasvhille I worked in the old RCA big room and liked it a lot. One day, however, I recorded a big band and WOW! I could hear what the room was made to do. Nowdays, what do these wonderful rooms (those still in use) do? The occasional tracking or string date. Most of the time we're recording one or two things at a time. Look at this year's Grammy nominations or last year's top ten. Almost all, if not all are records that can be done in a bedroom. Fact is that's what's selling. And what sells breeds more of the same...until someone comes along and makes something different that sells. Those rooms were made because that kind of music was what sold. Not today. Frankly I feel I was born in the wrong era. I love that stuff. But between file sharing and what's currently selling, no one needs these rooms to make records. I don't like it and it gives little for the future to remember...but there you have it. Still, as I think about it Les Paul and Rudy Van Gelder worked in a house. And Tom Dowd did all those great early Atlantic albums in the offices. But I remember the first time I worked at Oceanway and pushed the fader up on an M50 in a quiet Studio A. Even the room with nothing going on sounded amazing. Thirty minutes later the musicians arrived and I realized how much easier it was to make a great sound in such a place. The genie is out if the bottle. Until music that sells requires lots of musicians to be a room playing together again I don't see this trend stopping. I don't like it. I don't want it. I didn't get into the music business to be holed up in a room mostly by myself and a computer. But here I am! Post by: acech on February 03, 2005, 02:14:31 AM Maybe the answer is surround sound. If anything we (the audio industry) are gaining a collective interest in it. A surround studio isn't something that can easily be built in a living room - and ProTools LE doesn't come with true surround capabilities (and I doubt most casual Digi users have an interest). The public is yet to embrace it because they don't understand it - not long ago I was approached by a couple Best Buy employees (who were selling SACDs and DVD-As) asking what the difference was and what type of player was necessary. If the salespeople can't sell it, why would the public want it? Maybe there's some other answer - regardless, the industry has to change (or evolve) and with that there's a lot of room for new technology and ideas. Post by: henchman on February 03, 2005, 02:20:45 AM
Except that the music industry is becoming more and more about the lowest bidder. Not experience and talent. And ideas and technolgy cannot thrive on that kind of attitude. Post by: RackAttackRentals on February 03, 2005, 02:34:16 AM Feb 2nd, 3:00 PM: We spoke with Candace Stewart (Cello Studio Manager) today in an effort to retrieve some gear that was still at the facility. Candace had few comments as to the future of the studio... We were advised that various cartage/rental companies were doing the same.It appears that several of the former staff have already made other arrangements, namely; exploring job offers. The studio had considerable bookings into May... doesn't appear to have mattered. Were sorry to see this happen; we facilitated more than our share of projects at Cello. Thank you Candace, thanks to you Jen. We wish you only the best. Daily News Article Cello Studio - Bill Putnam's Legacy A dozen L.A. facilities have met the same fate in the last six. Rack Attack Post by: i dig music on February 03, 2005, 12:05:35 PM studios is now a clothing store. A nine room place I grew up in {Streeterville} that opened in 1969 had a killer remix suite and 2 big-rooms that could do up to 40 pieces. A post-production biz that was also in the same building bought the building and turned studio A 50x30 with 20 ft ceilings, into a golf range and B into a "client jam room". What a waste. CRC is still there, mostly because of audio post, but I can now get there SSL or Neve rooms for 140 an hour. 8 years ago CRC would have cost me 400 an hour to book. Consider this, back in the 1969, when streeterville first opened, the hourly rate was 160 by the time they closed doors in the early 90' s, you could get the room for half that or even less if you put the screws to them. Post by: Tonelux on February 11, 2005, 11:58:07 AM What does anyone think? 100% of the time when a plug in is compared to the real thing, everyone goes WOW. The studio provided us with the best tone that there was, but because no one gives a shit anymore, and they are happy with MP3s and streaming radio on the computers what do you expect? This is why they are going away. Even though so many "home engineers" don't even know what a patchbay is, they cluelessly crank out misdirected music because they have no one to learn from. Now, it seems like record companies don't even want to sign artists anymore. They merge and release everyone. Sounds like a new weight loss program--- Merge and Release ---. Is it because they don't have the brains? or is it because they would rather own content and reissue it over and over? or is it because there is nothing new out there? If this community doesn't get a grip and start forcing distribution of good music again, there will be no industry. If everyone is satisfied with MP3s, why are we developing higher quality anything? Why do we need DSD, Blue Ray, DVD-HD or anything better? I see so many good bands playing and they come up and ask what they should do next. I have no idea anymore. I used to record a band, get on the train to NY, go see an A&R guy, play it and he would either like it or not. Now days, unless they do rap, which seems to be the only thing record companies do any more, there is nothing to tell them. I guess instead of my ranting, I should simply say "What did you expect?" Post by: Phil on February 11, 2005, 12:58:58 PM Post by: Tonelux on February 12, 2005, 12:11:35 AM
Well, that is a good point. I live in DC and know people "all the way to the top". I'll talk to some people and see what they think. Any ideas would be good, as I am not much of a politician, but I know many. Post by: stevieeastend on February 12, 2005, 07:53:01 AM cheers steveeastend Post by: djwayne on February 12, 2005, 09:28:48 AM Post by: Ross Hogarth on February 12, 2005, 10:11:22 AM
ASSlee Simpson's record is triple platinum because the genuii factor decided to force feed her crap on the public like Lucky Charms or any other cereal that doesn't taste good, isn't good for you but you buy it anyway... If you blitz the media with any one piece of bullshit, the kids eventually buy it ... Sorry but find some other data to support your claim that the business is doing great ... Post by: Tonelux on February 12, 2005, 10:26:16 AM Which, as you well know from the recent Yahoo news article, results in a fast apsorbtion, high return and fast decay, with the risk of death... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573& ncid=757&e=8&u=/nm/20050210/od_nm/odd_enema_dc Post by: djwayne on February 12, 2005, 11:01:30 AM
Loreena McKennitt, her sales are over 13 million worldwide, with very little airplay in the U.S.... iTunes is reporting 100 million + download sales. Somebody's doing well. Did I hear somebody say, "Loreena who ??" I heard Sir Paul got paid 3.3 million for the Superbowl performance... How much is Madonna worth ?? I've heard reports of 300-500 million. How about Metallica ?? How many records did they sell ?? Regarding Ashlee Simpson...nobody's forcing anybody to go down to the record store and open their wallet and hand over the cash for an Ashlee Simpson cd, that's done because the buyers WANT to. Post by: antti on February 12, 2005, 11:24:48 AM
Apparently over 100 million which I still can't believe. Ok, it was massive but not MASSIVE. Then again everybody who got hooked up around the Black album went and bought the entire back catalogue. But 100 million.. And it's not that cheesy either (well, some of it is). Post by: djwayne on February 12, 2005, 12:02:44 PM Post by: stevieeastend on February 12, 2005, 12:49:27 PM In fact people still buying more CDs than in the 70ies. Production costs decreased dramatical due to digital. Majors are cutting costs. Contracts usually include "recouping", in fact labels take very low risks. cheers steveeastend Post by: Tomas Danko on February 12, 2005, 05:33:22 PM
Loreena McKennitt's "The Mask And The Mirror" is my choice for that one-album-on-an-island contest, hands down. I've bought it many many times so that I can give it away to people I love, because I love the music so much. And even though I can hear technical flaws in the production nowadays, it has served as the perfect sound recording for me and I always forget about analyticism when I hear it. I listen to her nearly every day, still. Regards, Tomas Danko Ps. And to think that she's running her own thing, record company and all. Eat your heart out, Sony. Post by: Phil on February 12, 2005, 07:30:33 PM Post by: Rob Darling on February 12, 2005, 07:44:29 PM The tail does not, in fact, wag the dog. Amercians are vain and shallow, so they buy vain, shallow music. That's it. Americans are wealthy with nothing to do, so they buy frustrated, frenetic music. Americans are violent, they buy violent music. That is it. Recorded music is in fact a drug. The desire to hear the same message repeatedly is an addiction. People pick the drug they want. Americans are not healthy, and they buy some god-awful crap that is a deep reflection of this. Post by: Tonelux on February 12, 2005, 11:34:46 PM When Prince went out, he had no record company. He asked the RIAA and SoundScan what needed to be done to get record (CD) sales certified. THey said that it had to be traceable, and there had to be an audit trail, like a reciept. So, he said on his ticket, "The ticket price includes the price of the new Prince CD blablabla". Everyone that went through the front door got a CD handed to them, which was valued at $9.95, which in itself was a good deal. Do the math. He played 3 to 5 nights per venue, had options for an extra night and most places he took it. The gardens in NY, 20,000 seats, times 5 shows, 100,000 certified sales. One city... I was talking to one of Billy Corigan's guys on the phone. We were talking about that and how smart it was. He said "We were inquiring about that to SoundScan and they told us that they were told that if they did it again, they (the majors) would not use them any more to certify airplay. And so it ended. Fucked up? You betcha. That is why there needs to be something going on in DC. Just like Payola days. They can't figure out how to shit, but they sure as hell don't want you to in the mean time. Another example. Orgy sold some 3.5 million copies of one of their records (CD, sorry, I'm old) and decided not to go through the record company for the next one. At the time, they had sold 40K copies of the new one. Everyone has made 2X what they made from the last one. Since the majors don't want to develope artists any more, they need to GET OUT OF THE WAY. Something to think about. None of the "bigger" engineers are going to rock the boat, as they are getting less and less of the pie too. The first one that starts shit won't have any work from then on. It's like being in the middle of a highjacking, but the highjackers can't decide where they want to go, so you fly around in a circle until you run out of gas. And of course, the first thing they do is shoot the radio, so no one knows what they want anyway. Sick, but true. Post by: seriousfun on February 14, 2005, 06:08:38 PM
Loreena McKennitt 'Paris & Toronto' Live is the biggest selling single item on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3 07&item=4700437522&rd=1. Jay and Marie of 1CentCD broke this open when they bought a box of these, started them on eBay for one penny and they all sold for a good multiplier of 1CentCD's cost. This album doesn't have distribution, let alone airplay, in the US. This is a great example of alternative distribution. Post by: Dave Rosen on February 14, 2005, 11:19:19 PM I think this is Academy awards pre record with Bill Conti conducting but Im not sure Dave Rosen Absolute Rentals dave@worldlinkdigital.com 818-842-2828 Post by: Dave Rosen on February 14, 2005, 11:21:42 PM I think this is Academy awards pre record with Bill Conti conducting but Im not sure Dave Rosen Absolute Rentals dave@worldlinkdigital.com 818-842-2828 Post by: hollywood_steve on February 15, 2005, 06:51:43 PM Post by: Casey Monroe on April 04, 2005, 10:20:45 PM I was hired as a runner about three months before Cello closed. I was a lucky, lucky kid...fresh out of recording school, armed with a home Pro Tools studio, a willingness to do whatever it took, and not much else. Candace took me in basically off the street--I sent resumes to everybody in the industry, much like I'm sure the rest of you all did, and only Candace gave me the time of day. I don't have much to start a career on. But everything I have, basically, I owe to Candace and Gary. Thank you guys, if you're out there. And those of you who might be in a position to hire them, do so. They're some of the kindest people in the industry. And those of you who might be able to hire ME...well, I'm available, and I have references!
Post by: RMoore on April 05, 2005, 06:12:46 AM
I guess they would be!  sorry couldn't resist,I know you mean - albums Post by: David Bock on April 05, 2005, 12:16:06 PM DB Post by: rankus on April 05, 2005, 04:01:09 PM
And WE (indie types) need to get out there and pick up where they drop the ball. There are just too many alternative outlets (that have been mentioned earlier in the thread) to even BOTHER with any labels or distributers... Just do a net search on DRM (Digital Rights Management) or Creative Commons (a new type of Copyright) and spend a couple of hours thinking about how these will affect the future of the biz..... you will be VERY optomistic (sp?) I know I am! Post by: Alan Meyerson on December 01, 2005, 11:25:35 PM Gary is one of those rare people in the industry that makes you feel safe and in good hands, I'll miss him and am keeping his name in the forefront of my mind in my future endevors. I can;t imagine a career in the indusrty without Gary Meyerberg around. Gary, Candace, you can always reach me at alanmeyerson2@mac,com, All my love, Alan Meyerson Post by: Giovanni Speranza on December 02, 2005, 07:49:35 AM This studio was IMO the best sounding studio in the world. I have cold. Post by: Etch-A-Sketch on December 02, 2005, 03:19:42 PM
How could you think that? They didn't use Logic!!!! If they aren't using a 32bit fp audio engine then wouldn't the recordings coming from the Celloo all have that "crunchy distortion" you say you can hear on anything done in protools? Interesting... I guess you do like the sound of protools after all! Post by: Mr sprouts on December 02, 2005, 05:26:22 PM But who cares things change. Or we would all still be listening to new kids on the block. Knock the bastard down and all who are in it should perish for that place has become a home for vultures and ....... Viva the audio revolution. Long live magix music maker and freely avalible plugins.
Post by: danickstr on December 04, 2005, 11:32:07 AM david bock said he saw an alarm company and a dumpster..if Allen S was still in charge the alarm company would be rigging the dumpster to keep out mic scavengers. i wonder who actually owns the lots? hey Thorbing (throbbing, perhaps?) helm guy: free plug-ins means someone doesn't get paid for their work. this type of pirate mentality is going to make your generation look pathetic if it catches on.
Post by: danickstr on December 04, 2005, 12:15:35 PM 
Post by: Apournelle on December 04, 2005, 01:26:33 PM --Alex Post by: Giovanni Speranza on December 04, 2005, 01:52:05 PM
Because most of my favorite songs were done there. |