Post by: ssltech on January 27, 2010, 10:59:02 PM
I don't have all the information, and neither does anyone else, so this is all conjecture, but -as Tiger Woods illustrated so perfectly at Thanksgiving- allowing people time to muse and ponder with no information is a terrible way to go about things... you HAVE to get out in front of stories like this before they gather their own momentum.
So here's what we know: There have been over two thousand reports of unintended acceleration/runaway engine speed. Many of these PRE-DATE the highly-publicised (and compellingly tragic) 'deathbed testimony' of the family in California last fall, who dialed 9-1-1 from inside a runaway car...
First it was all put down to floor mats. -Not 'getting stuck under the pedals' as we've heard, but the pedals getting stuck UNDER the floormats. -The temporary cure according to the Toyota TSB was to zip-tie the floor mats to the seat frame (or some similar strong point) to prevent them migrating forwards.
Next however, Toyota announces that they will have to replace the pedal assemblies in over three million vehicles... -wait, I thought the problem was the floor mats?
Now they have announced the sales ban on EIGHT of their best-selling models, including Camrys, Corollas, Tundras, Matrixes... and they've stopped production.
It can't be a poorly-executed way to stop production and circumvent the unions, allowing excess inventory to draw down, because they've halted sales.
Between them, Toyota and Honda presently have just about the highest perception of 'rock-solid reliability' that it's possible to have... and if they don't get a grip on this -FAST- they'll discover what Audi found out in the late 1980's... Stories of unintended acceleration (which in the case of Audi turned out to be unfounded, a combination of driver-error and a hatchet job by some folks at CBS) can all but DESTROY a brand.
General Motors is trying to 'put the boot in' while Toyota are on the floor, by offering an additional $1000 to anyone who trades-in a Toyota for a GM product... That's a pretty desperate straw-grasping sort of play in my book. -But moves like that keeps Toyotas trouble in people's mind... and that's how the notion of flawed-product gains traction.
-But there's one thing which troubles me above everything else, and it's the deaths. -If I recall correctly, there have either been eight recent deaths attributed to runaway Toyota-product engine revs... or eight fatal incidents, I'm not sure which. -Either way, that's a lot of deaths... but at least FOUR of them were in a Lexus.
Sure, Lexus is made by Toyota and almost everybody knows that.. but no Lexus production has been halted, and no Lexus sales have been pre-empted... so if Toyota thinks the problem is serious enough to risk the wrath of their entire dealer network by telling them that they can't make any money selling cars for some unspecified period, while they try to figure a 'fix', then why aren't they doing the same thing over at Lexus?
The only valid reason which I might conceive of is that the Lexus failures just happened to be down to the floor mats, and the Toyota failures were as a result of some pedal problem... But I wonder if such a coincidence is really plausible?
Or is this possibly a problem of 'drive-by-wire' throttle bodies, now that we've basically given the modern car engine the same sort of control system that an Airbus A320 has, with its FADEC's (Full-Authority-Digital-Engine-Controller)?
See, an internal combustion engine burns fuel... we all know that... but it can't do that, and it can't generate power without AIR. -The OLD engines (up until about a decade ago) used to have a throttle cable; -a hard, MECHANICAL link between the pedal position and the air opening, with a spring to pull it closed in the event of a cable snapping. -Race cars were required (under BRDC regulations at least) to have a second spring as a backup, in case the first spring snapped... -a real "belt-and-braces" approach.
You used to be able to FEEL the pedal 'dipping' when the cruise control was activated for example... a great example of FEELING the mechanical linkage in action.
Now most cars use a simple potentiometer in the gas pedal, and a servo motor at the throttle body, to open and shut to let more or less air in. -In between the two, there is a dedicated computer. The computer looks at the potentiometer (you could even wire a modern car to rev from a Penny and Giles fader, if you really wanted to!) and takes a few other things into account (such as whether or not the engine is near redline already) and the COMPUTER decides which way to drive the motor which opens or closes the 'butterfly' (a glorified 'flap') to let more or less air in. From that point on, fuel is injected to match the amount of airflow... and if anything goes wrong the result can easily be that the engine speed is higher or lower than what you asked for.
I'd dearly love to know what the problem really is, but I'm also rather skeptical that -whatever the hardware problem is- it is confined solely to Toyota-branded vehicles... There's so much cross-brand part sharing between Toyota and Lexus, and they evidently use these parts among SO MANY different products in the Toyota model range, I find it VERY hard to believe that there's no inter-brand sharing of the same product... after all, the whole advantage to inter-brand platform sharing is that you don't have to re-invent the wheel over and over again.
Keith
Post by: MDM, on January 28, 2010, 03:52:37 AM
would it be possible to put the car in neutral?
Post by: KB_S1 on January 28, 2010, 06:03:09 AM
This 'problem' would therefore appear to not be with the pedal assembly but the ECU running the throttle.
The throttle/brake interaction is one of the many reasons I hate DBW. Try braking/shifting/accelerating smoothly at speed in a consistent manner.
There hasn't been any publicised cases here of runaway Toyotas.
Post by: bblackwood on January 28, 2010, 08:01:44 AM
I can't help but wonder if there's not a critical issue in the computer which locks the transmission into D if the accelerator is depressed (or something similar) whereby once this issue arises there's nothing the operator can do to safely stop the vehicle.
I suspect Toyota (and be default Lexus) are going to be hurt very badly by all this.
Post by: ssltech on January 28, 2010, 08:31:17 AM
| KB_S1 wrote |
In drive-by-wire cars you cannot activate the throttle and brake simultaneously. |
I don't think that this is strictly true. -Of the three cars which I own only one is DBW, and it is my only 'automatic' (twin-clutch, technically). On it, you can definitely activate both, and doing so is part of the 'launch control'. The brake is a mechanical linkage still, and still operates uninhibited... I'd bet money that this is true in all cars. -My wife's car is also DBW, but she doesn't let me play with that car... she's seen the effect on our bank balance when the 'urge to improve' inspires me!
One problem however, is that the servo in power-assisted braking is vacuum-driven, and (in most engines) is generated by the engine when the throttle is CLOSED. SOME vehicles (such as the newer Infiniti G37) don't even HAVE a throttle... they determine how much air goes into the cylinders by varying the time that the valves are open (no intake camshaft) and/or the distance to which they open. In these cars (and diesel vehicles, which also have no throttle) there is therefore NO throttle-generated vacuum, and so there's usually a mechanical vacuum pump run off one of the main motor shafts, and an electric pump for when the engine is not running.
In a 'traditional' system, the vacuum is generated when the throttle is partially open or essentially 'closed'. The downward 'pulling' of the pistons pulls air past the open intake valves, and draws a significant vacuum (typically 20+ inches of mercury at warm idle, even more at running speed with throttle-lift) behind the (closed or partially-closed) throttle plate, usually in a plenum which is connected to the vacuum chamber in the brake servo.
When the 'gas pedal' is 'mashed to the mat' the throttling-plate opens and this vacuum disappears, so the vacuum chamber is fed from a line with a "check-valve" in it (which is analogous to a 'diode' in an electrical circuit and the servo chamber is like a 'capacitor') -the check valve lets air flow one way (AWAY from the servo) but not the other, and the servo 'stores' the vacuum in the vacuum chamber.
You can witness an example of this in a traditional servo-brake system, by running your car at idle while parked, and testing what it feels like to press the brakes firmly. -Now stop the engine and press the pedal firmly again. -IT should feel about the same. Now try a third time... then a fourth -Keep going.
The vacuum chamber usually has enough for about three full application/release cycles, and then you should probably notice that the brake pedal suddenly feels VERY 'hard'. -At this point the vacuum is exhausted, and you now have no more servo-assistance. Your braking power is now about one-tenth to one-fifth of what it was before, and at 70MPH (or in fact any other speed) your stopping distance will be extended accordingly.
For a traditional throttle-body-equipped-intake vehicle, the intake generates no vacuum when the gas pedal is "in the mat", and so the brakes would act as if the car had the engine stopped... after a few cycles, the driver would have a 'hard-pedal', the required braking effort would be enormous, and it's pretty much certain that a human driver would not have enough strength even then to overcome a 'screaming' motor.
| MDM, wrote |
If the engine goes nuts, what would turning the ignition off do? |
Yes, absolutely. -However, in the awful case of the Caifornian highway crash which was recorded in a 9-1-1 call, the driver (who was a 40-ish year old off-duty police officer IIRC) was driving a 'loaner' vehicle which had been provided to him by the Lexus dealership while his personal vehicle was in for service, and -as in the case of most disasters- it was not a SINGLE problem which made this so calamitous, but the 'perfect storm' convergence of several smaller problems...
These 'service loaner' vehicles at 'prestige-brand' dealerships are sometimes cleverly used as 'lures' to put existing brand owners (who have cars of a few years old and may be at the stage where they're considering their NEXT car purchase) in the mindset that the newer versions are familiar, yet "cooler" in some way. -For example, they sometimes have navigation systems in them. Or a more comprehensive entertainment package... All the little things which make a buyer think "well, I wasn't necessarily looking to replace mine, but this new gadget is so neat to have... I wonder how much it would be to get the newer model?"
In the Lexus crash, the car had a pushbutton ignition engine stop/start, with an electronic "key", the presence of which is detected by RF. Basically you leave it in your pocket and just just pull the door handle to open the car. -No fumbling for keys, no scratching paint trying to find the lock in a dark parking lot. And to start the engine there's no fumbling down the side of the steering column... you just press "engine start" while the automatic shift lever is in 'park' or 'neutral'.
STOPPING the engine also requires the engine to be in 'park' or 'neutral', so that the driver doesn't accidentally shut off the engine while in the fast lane due to an accidental 'fumble' while trying to turn the radio down when a phone call comes in, for example...
So the "engine start/engine stop" button DOESN'T stop the engine... unless you VERY deliberately hold the button down for an extended period, like three to five seconds.
The people in the car didn't appear to know this... it wasn't their car, and while there's a strong possibility that their personal vehicle had a traditional metal-keyed ignition switch, I suspect that MANY pushbutton-start-engine vehicle owners don't know that trick... I mean, how many people actually READ the owner's manual? (okay... apart from car-geeks like me!!!)
| MDM, wrote |
would it be possible to put the car in neutral? |
Yes. Absolutely. The engine would scream the song of near-self-destruction of course, but who cares? -This is -tragically- life or death stuff.
Sadly though, if you listen to the final phone call of the front seat passenger in the California Lexus crash, you get the impression -or at least I do- that after a few seconds (during which the phone signal is -frustratingly- poor, and some precious seconds are lost as a result), he's not LISTENING to the dispatcher who answers... he's called to talk, and seems to be certain that they've already TRIED everything. At that point they're at 130MPH reaching surface streets and heading towards a required stop at a busy intersection...
Possibly the fact that the driver represented an 'authority figure' (police officers of my acquaintance seem to have "the presence") to the passengers in the car had the effect that when HE said there was nothing that he could do to stop the accident, the passengers just accepted that nothing could be done. -Certainly I feel that the dispatcher said the right things, but the passenger really wasn't 'listening'. (Perhaps understandably... he was -correctly- fairly certain that he was about to die...)
The full 50-second recording is here but -BE WARNED- it's quite disturbing.
Keith
Post by: ssltech on January 28, 2010, 09:16:08 AM
...Yet the Tacoma is NOT among the vehicles for which is production currently stopped, and it is still on sale.
In addition, the YouTube video further down the page shows a Lexus which HAD the problem, and shows one owner's opinion of how unlikely the "mat" is to be true.
Toyota's June 2008 statement:
| Quote: |
"Toyota believes that it is likely that many of the consumer complaints about the general issue of unwanted acceleration… as well as many of the complaints about this subject that have been received by Toyota, were inspired by publicity… Even taking (the accusations) at face value, it is clear that the majority of the complaints are related to minor drivability issues and are not indicative of a safety-related defect." |
Interestingly Toyota (and most manufacturers, I understand, have programmed the ECU/DBW system to log an error if it ever detects that the accelerator pedal and throttle plate position are ever 'determined to be mismatched'...
Keith
Post by: Roadster on January 28, 2010, 11:02:11 AM
I certainly wouldn't be afraid to purchase a Toyota either.
Post by: Jay Kadis on January 28, 2010, 11:14:11 AM
Post by: ssltech on January 28, 2010, 12:08:09 PM
Two of my colleagues recently bought affected vehicles. I just chatted with them to make sure that they knew what to do... just in case the unlikely ever happened.
But GM's "kick 'em in the lugnuts" tactic shows how other makers -keen to grab any advantage in a tight market- can raise the 'specter of doubt' in people's minds.
Toyota need to get out in front of this problem before it does them some serious public perception damage. -Audi decided to pro-actively fight the 'unintended acceleration' charges back in the 1980's, but battled with the plaintiffs on a "we are completely blameless" basis, because they had a respectable amount of backup showing that it was due to the customers inadvertently pressing the gas pedal instead of the brake which was causing their particular issues. -I think that they were trying to be seen as 'trustworthy', but in the end they plummeted in the general US car-buyers eyes, even though the rest of the world still respected the brand in increasing numbers.
Perversely, the pedal-position issue which caused the driver disorientation wasn't an issue in RHD markets, such as the UK, South Africa, Australia etc. Other vehicles have had similar problems, such as the first iteration of the Jeep Grand Cherokee, and all seem to have learned at least something from the Audi debacle.
Keith
Post by: compasspnt on January 28, 2010, 12:15:36 PM
Even if it means always buying used.
Post by: jimlongo on January 28, 2010, 12:18:35 PM
For vague reasons I started thinking about a year ago it might be my last Toyota.
When I was at my dealer last fall the salesman kept pushing how many more-features-at-a-lower-price the new Matrix had. It felt flimsier than the 06.
Post by: Randirainbow on January 28, 2010, 12:23:12 PM
Post by: Roadster on January 28, 2010, 01:40:03 PM
| Randirainbow wrote on Thu, 28 January 2010 11:23 |
Well I guess that with Toyota manufacturing and sales halted for mysterious reasons, I will have to buy an American car. Hmmmmmm! |
My Saturn Vue is for sale. It will probably become a collectible.
Post by: KB_S1 on January 28, 2010, 02:40:31 PM
Try manually activating the throttle yourself whilst downshifting or applying a bit of left foot braking whilst accelerating.
Pretty sure the car will not comply and probably give you a row.
Unless you have sneaked a Fezza or Lambo purchase that you have kept quiet?
Post by: ScotcH on January 28, 2010, 09:33:58 PM
| KB_S1 wrote on Thu, 28 January 2010 14:40 |
Keith. Try manually activating the throttle yourself whilst downshifting or applying a bit of left foot braking whilst accelerating. Pretty sure the car will not comply and probably give you a row. Unless you have sneaked a Fezza or Lambo purchase that you have kept quiet? |
The point is that the brakes are mechanical. Even if what you say is true, it will be the accel pedal that will not function, unless of course the computer controlled ABS is somehow preventing you from appying the brakes ... which would be ridiculous, and indeed very scary.
Brakes will ALWAYS overpower an engine ... even at full throttle, a functional brake system will stop the car. Simply standing on the brakes will do it. I'm not sure how these poeple are dyning (very tragic), but there are always options. brakes is one, neutral is another, even if the engine cannot be shut off.
Post by: compasspnt on January 28, 2010, 10:22:32 PM
| ScotcH wrote on Thu, 28 January 2010 21:33 |
The point is that the brakes are mechanical. Even if what you say is true, it will be the accel pedal that will not function, unless of course the computer controlled ABS is somehow preventing you from appying the brakes ... which would be ridiculous, and indeed very scary. Brakes will ALWAYS overpower an engine ... even at full throttle, a functional brake system will stop the car. Simply standing on the brakes will do it. I'm not sure how these poeple are dyning (very tragic), but there are always options. brakes is one, neutral is another, even if the engine cannot be shut off. |
Does this post not address that situation?
| ssltech wrote on Thu, 28 January 2010 08:31 |
One problem however, is that the servo in power-assisted braking is vacuum-driven, and (in most engines) is generated by the engine when the throttle is CLOSED. SOME vehicles (such as the newer Infiniti G37) don't even HAVE a throttle... they determine how much air goes into the cylinders by varying the time that the valves are open (no intake camshaft) and/or the distance to which they open. In these cars (and diesel vehicles, which also have no throttle) there is therefore NO throttle-generated vacuum, and so there's usually a mechanical vacuum pump run off one of the main motor shafts, and an electric pump for when the engine is not running. In a 'traditional' system, the vacuum is generated when the throttle is partially open or essentially 'closed'. The downward 'pulling' of the pistons pulls air past the open intake valves, and draws a significant vacuum (typically 20+ inches of mercury at warm idle, even more at running speed with throttle-lift) behind the (closed or partially-closed) throttle plate, usually in a plenum which is connected to the vacuum chamber in the brake servo. When the 'gas pedal' is 'mashed to the mat' the throttling-plate opens and this vacuum disappears, so the vacuum chamber is fed from a line with a "check-valve" in it (which is analogous to a 'diode' in an electrical circuit and the servo chamber is like a 'capacitor') -the check valve lets air flow one way (AWAY from the servo) but not the other, and the servo 'stores' the vacuum in the vacuum chamber. You can witness an example of this in a traditional servo-brake system, by running your car at idle while parked, and testing what it feels like to press the brakes firmly. -Now stop the engine and press the pedal firmly again. -IT should feel about the same. Now try a third time... then a fourth -Keep going. The vacuum chamber usually has enough for about three full application/release cycles, and then you should probably notice that the brake pedal suddenly feels VERY 'hard'. -At this point the vacuum is exhausted, and you now have no more servo-assistance. Your braking power is now about one-tenth to one-fifth of what it was before, and at 70MPH (or in fact any other speed) your stopping distance will be extended accordingly. For a traditional throttle-body-equipped-intake vehicle, the intake generates no vacuum when the gas pedal is "in the mat", and so the brakes would act as if the car had the engine stopped... after a few cycles, the driver would have a 'hard-pedal', the required braking effort would be enormous, and it's pretty much certain that a human driver would not have enough strength even then to overcome a 'screaming' motor. |
Post by: ScotcH on January 28, 2010, 10:57:09 PM
| compasspnt wrote on Thu, 28 January 2010 22:22 |
Does this post not address that situation? |
Somewhat ... this is the part you're referring to I guess:
| ssltech wrote on Thu, 28 January 2010 08:31 |
and so the brakes would act as if the car had the engine stopped... after a few cycles, the driver would have a 'hard-pedal', the required braking effort would be enormous, and it's pretty much certain that a human driver would not have enough strength even then to overcome a 'screaming' motor. |
Basically you're dealing with unboosted brakes at that point like many old cars, and plenty of broken cars ... my wife's Fiat spider has no vac assist on the brakes (I diconnected it cause it was leaking), and it stops just fine ... I can lock up the whels no sweat. While the effort is certainly MUCH greater, it is still perfectly effective to use the brakes while unboosted. Yes, the pedal will feel rock hard, but there is leverage at work, and you're still appliying like pressure (like 1000s of PSI) to the brakes when you stand on the pedal. The clamping force is enough I would think ... but then car makers have obviously made other idiotic enginieering design changes, so perhaps they boosted the brakes to the point that they are no longer fnctional without the vac assist.
Post by: bblackwood on January 28, 2010, 11:01:52 PM
| ScotcH wrote on Thu, 28 January 2010 20:33 |
Brakes will ALWAYS overpower an engine ... even at full throttle, a functional brake system will stop the car. |
In the recording of the Lexus crash, iirc the brakes had faded and eventually failed. I suspect they tried riding them to control the vehicle before deciding to really step on them and by that point they were too hot...
Post by: KB_S1 on January 29, 2010, 05:43:48 AM
| ScotcH wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 02:33 | ||
The point is that the brakes are mechanical. Even if what you say is true, it will be the accel pedal that will not function, unless of course the computer controlled ABS is somehow preventing you from appying the brakes ... which would be ridiculous, and indeed very scary. Brakes will ALWAYS overpower an engine ... even at full throttle, a functional brake system will stop the car. Simply standing on the brakes will do it. I'm not sure how these poeple are dyning (very tragic), but there are always options. brakes is one, neutral is another, even if the engine cannot be shut off. |
My point was that DBW throttles will not open if the brake pedal is depressed.
A computer controlled decision. ANything more than about 0.5s will be over-ridden by the ECU.
Brakes will NOT overcome a lot of modern powerful engines if there is already momentum.
Fortunately I am unlikely to ever own an automatic so I will always have the clutch and neutral option.
Post by: MDM, on January 29, 2010, 07:03:28 AM
it feels like it's doing an average as I step on the pedal.. doesn't respond quickly.
if the motor is under full power, would I be able to push it out of drive and into neutral then?
Post by: KB_S1 on January 29, 2010, 07:43:49 AM
| MDM, wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 12:03 |
I think my BMW has this potenziometer-controlled gas pedal from the feel of it. it feels like it's doing an average as I step on the pedal.. doesn't respond quickly. if the motor is under full power, would I be able to push it out of drive and into neutral then? |
What year? Automatic?
Newish BMWs tend to have a couple of weird things going on.
There is the DBW throttle which in non M cars has a noticeable delay.
In manuals there is also a clutch delay valve which I find incredibly frustrating.
My GF's Fiat 500 has these things too and I can not drive the bloody thing smoothly at all.
Post by: ssltech on January 29, 2010, 07:47:54 AM
| MDM, wrote |
it feels like it's doing an average as I step on the pedal.. doesn't respond quickly. |
There is no perceptible lag due to throttle motor reaction time in either my wife's or my DBW cars. I can take a picture of the vacuum/boost gauge in any one or more of my cars, in an effort to show that the difference between the mechanical-linkage variations which I own behave just as quickly as the DBW ones...
Which BMW is it? IIRC BMW were using these about 20 years ago on their dual-intake-plenum V12 motors, (balancing the vacuums struck me as a challenge)
| MDM, wrote |
if the motor is under full power, would I be able to push it out of drive and into neutral then? |
Yes. There is NO connection between linkage operation and motor load in most automatics. Dual-clutch transmissions especially... although in those both clutches are computer-controlled, and operated by pump-driven hydraulic actuators... even more potential points for a catastrophic failure.
In a traditional manual transmission engine drive and shifter position is directly linked, so motive force will come into direct 'contact' (and you can 'feel' this in your wrist when performing a clutchless-shift).
| ScotcH wrote |
Basically you're dealing with unboosted brakes at that point like many old cars, and plenty of broken cars ... |
I've driven, and played with many un-assisted cars. -Take the old VW beetle. The brake arrangement in them is NOT SUPPOSED to be boosted, and the 'gearing' of the brake pedal (. in specific terms the mechanical advantage, the 'leverage' of the pedal/actuator relationship) is MUCH greater than in boosted cars.
As a result, if you disable the servo in a modern boosted vehicle, or if it fails (such as a MkIV platform VW GTI... an example which occurred to a colleague only last week, which is why it is fresh in my mind) then you'll have discovered the world's fastest-acting laxative.
| ScotcH wrote |
my wife's Fiat spider has no vac assist on the brakes (I diconnected it cause it was leaking), and it stops just fine ... I can lock up the whels no sweat. |
I've never worked on a spider, so I honestly can't say with any certainty, but I suspect that it may not have the same assistance ratio that many modern cars do... but that's conjecture. -Certainly, in last week's VW brake servo failure incident, the driver (who is bigger than me, -I'm just over 6' tall- and stronger too) could NOT lock the wheels. In addition, he had to drop a gear -FAST- throw BOTH feet on the pedal, and pull the handbrake, and STILL couldn't stop in the prescribed distance... locking up the wheels was utterly out of the question. -I know, because I tried the car before I fixed it for him.
| ScotcH wrote |
While the effort is certainly MUCH greater, it is still perfectly effective to use the brakes while unboosted. Yes, the pedal will feel rock hard, but there is leverage at work, and you're still appliying like pressure (like 1000s of PSI) to the brakes when you stand on the pedal. The clamping force is enough I would think ... but then car makers have obviously made other idiotic enginieering design changes, so perhaps they boosted the brakes to the point that they are no longer fnctional without the vac assist. |
See above. -Did the Spider also come in un-boosted versions? -Either lower-spec or earlier/older models?
If so, it's quite probable that the amount servo-assist was only very small, just to 'assist' in the typically-understood sense of the word, rather than being a significant and essential part of the required braking force.
Certainly, I assure you that you could NEVER stop a Lexus with no vacuum in the chamber and a stuck throttle, and sadly neither could any of the people who died in California last August.
| KB_S1 wrote |
Try manually activating the throttle yourself whilst downshifting or applying a bit of left foot braking whilst accelerating. |
I'm heading to work now, so I'll give it a go, -at least I'll TRY. Mine is a DSG, so things are a little tricky, but I'll watch the vac/boost gauge. It's a very reliable indicator of throttle-plate position, so you can actually see the throttle response.
Hmmmm, in a manual, how would you do a 'heel-and-toe' rev-match cog-drop on a corner entrance if the throttle is inoperative... Let me see what it does.
Keith
Post by: ssltech on January 29, 2010, 09:11:04 AM
I tried it two ways; brake-before-throttle and throttle-before-brake... I'll describe brake-before-throttle first:
Brake-before-throttle test: From a ~15MPH slow-roll, I lifted off completely, allowing the car to coast-down, then braked firmly. The brakes weren't 'banged-on', but it was pretty firm. Then as the car was decelerating, I mashed the gas pedal into the floor, and watched the gauge. The throttle went from ~24inHG vacuum to ~8psi boost before I had to let go of the brake pedal... I was almost at a stop.
Conclusion: strong brake pedal operation did not prevent subsequent throttle operation.
Throttle-before-brake test: -At 65MPH on interstate 4, having dropped a little way behind the cars in front, in 48
Post by: compasspnt on January 29, 2010, 09:49:46 AM
Post by: Roadster on January 29, 2010, 10:56:52 AM
Post by: Jay Kadis on January 29, 2010, 12:01:17 PM
| Roadster wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 07:56 |
OK. Here's what we know so far. Brakes will absolutely be useless after you've gone over a cliff. |
Post by: KB_S1 on January 29, 2010, 12:57:21 PM
Heel and Toe in a DBW should be possible as the maximum throttle time should be under 0.5s.
I am surprised by your findings. Of the 3 or 4 DBW cars I have tried they have all got huffy when attempting to left foot brake for experimenting.
I know that a lot of the current batch of DBW cars can manipulate the brakes whilst cornering to act as a stability/traction control device.
I have experienced this and it is very strange feeling.
Perhaps DSG cars in particular allow more overlap as they are programmed to blip throttle on downshifts (as does the manual shift on Nissan's 370Z).
Post by: Roadster on January 29, 2010, 02:02:47 PM
| Jay Kadis wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 11:01 | ||
|
I knew that.
So good to go, as long as you're in a semi or a bus.
Post by: Hallams on January 31, 2010, 07:58:06 PM
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/driver-taken-to-hospital-in -shock-after-miracle-escape-when-cruise-control-jammed-on-ea stern-fwy/story-e6frf7jo-1225810668864
Post by: Collins on February 01, 2010, 02:10:51 PM
More on the CTS vs. Denso pedals...Toyota now says condensation is the cause?...not floor mats wedged under the accelerator as stated before.
I'm feeling a software bug here.
I've had my 09 Tacoma since early last year...no issues.
The clutch does have a weird squeak in really hot weather though,
but overall, it's a nice truck. 2.7liter 4cyl., 5 speed, 4WD.
PC
Post by: ssltech on February 01, 2010, 03:02:42 PM
It's also interesting that they seem to be using a magnetic detection device, such as a Hall-effect sensor, instead of a potentiometer.
That way, it's not prone to troubles like the wiper-wear which can plague potentiometers, ...BUT... I've had Hall-effect sensors in devices such as Studer tape remote switches, where the failure mode has been 'full-on'...
Thanks for the link. -That's expanded my line of thought somewhat.
I want to stress that I'm not shrieking 'conspiracy' here... just that I'm worried that Toyota might be making the massive mistake of not disclosing fully, and that it might HURT them if it EVER comes out that they misdiagnosed the original problem... and just took a "blame it on the floormats" approach...
It appears that there were problems BEFORE the CTS product design... That's not a good sign...
I really want them to get this behind them, and be able to move forward.
I heard on the radio (npr) that Ford as now joined GM in offering a $1k trade-in bump for Toyota owners...
Keith
Post by: Collins on February 01, 2010, 03:56:40 PM
| Quote: |
I heard on the radio (npr) that Ford as now joined GM in offering a $1k trade-in bump for Toyota owners... |
Michelle Krebbs, senior analyst for Edmunds.com, said that, if not for this week's problems, Toyota's sales would have been up at least slightly for the month.
The expected drop could send Toyota's market share below 15 percent, which would be its lowest level in nearly four years.
Most of Toyota's rivals are expected to post higher sales compared to a year ago. Ford Motor, which last year reported its first market share gain in the United States since 1995, is expected to pass Toyota in market share in January, according to Edmunds.com.
Ford has joined General Motors and other automakers trying to capitalize on Toyota's problems, offering $1,000 to buyers who trade in Toyotas when purchasing a new car.
That could be a big problem for Toyota. "People buy Toyotas for their bullet-proof reliability," said Krebbs. "That was their main selling point, and that's taken a huge hit."
-------------------------------------------------
Fishy indeed.
Funny, the initial fix from Toyota for the floor mat thing
was to attach a simple ty-wrap to the mat and to the stay on the floor.
I've actually detached the mat from the stay and tried to push the mat under the pedal and could not see a way it could cause the accelerator to depress or stick, as the pedals are hangers.
I am now wondering if there is a similar problem with the
clutch squeak I mentioned? As many others are experiencing
the same thing in hot weather?...
More here.
This is the recall announced last week following months of insistence that the root cause of a runaway Toyota or Lexus that could kill you and your family was floor mats jamming under accelerators and pinning the pedal to the metal. Now it turns out the accelerator pedal can just plain stick on its own.
Toyota, which has been running ads lately touting its safety record, is still selling new vehicles subject to the recall. It explains that the accelerator won't stick until a critical part wears down. It won't say how many miles it will take before that could happen.
To help understand how Toyota became enmeshed in this nightmare, it's worth examining its three-year journey as laid out in a Jan. 21 letter to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. First, here's exactly what Toyota says is going wrong:
Due to the manner in which the friction lever interacts with the sliding surface of the accelerator pedal inside the pedal sensor assembly, the sliding surface of the lever may become smooth during vehicle operation.
In this condition, if condensation occurs on the surface, as may occur from heater operation (without A/C) when the pedal assembly is cold, the friction when the accelerator pedal is operated may increase, which may result in the accelerator pedal becoming harder to depress, slower to return, or, in the worst case, mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position.
In addition, some of the affected vehicles' pedals were manufactured with friction levers made of a different material (stuff called "PA46"), which may be susceptible to humidity when parked for a long period in hot temperatures. In this condition, the friction when the accelerator pedal is operated may increase, which may result in the accelerator pedal movement becoming rough or slow to return. In light of the similarity with one of the symptoms described above that are associated with the PPS material, Toyota has decided to include these vehicles in the defect determination.
Then Toyota lays out the chain of events leading up to the recall:
March 2007-June 2008
Starting in March 2007, Toyota received field technical information regarding reports of accelerator pedals demonstrating symptoms such as rough operation or being slow to return to the idle position. These reports were limited to one model (Tundra), and the accelerator pedal assemblies in those vehicles contained a friction lever made of the PA46 material. Toyota's investigation found that the PA46 material was susceptible to humidity, which could cause the friction lever to absorb moisture and swell. Environmental testing was conducted in order to understand the full impact of the swelling of the friction lever due to humidity.
In February 2008, the material of the friction arm was changed to (another kind of composite called) PPS while investigations continued. In June 2008, Toyota concluded that while accelerator pedal feeling could change under certain conditions, Toyota considered it to be a drivability issue unrelated to safety.
December 2008 -August 2009
Toyota received field technical information from the European market which indicated reports of accelerator pedal sticking on vehicles equipped with pedals containing the PPS material. The reports predominantly involved right-hand-drive versions of the Toyota Aygo and Yaris vehicles.
Toyota began a detailed investigation with an evaluation of returned accelerator pedals in March 2009. Internal inspection of the sliding surface of the friction lever and the pedal arm was found to be partially smooth. Toyota conducted some duplication tests, and it was found that the internal friction could increase if moisture was attached to the sliding surface of the friction lever as the surface became smooth. This made the accelerator pedal stick in a partially depressed position under the condition where condensation occurs on the accelerator pedal (i.e. for several minutes during heater operation after the engine is started in cold temperatures). In addition, in the condition where A/C is operated, the phenomenon did not occur.
At this time, it appeared to be a phenomenon predominantly limited to right-hand-drive vehicles, without A/C equipment, based on the location of the accelerator pedal and the heater duct. Based on the investigation results above, Toyota lengthened the arm of the friction lever and changed its material to prevent smoothing on all vehicles produced in Europe with the subject accelerator pedals starting in mid-August 2009.
October 2009- January 2010
Toyota received field technical information from the U.S. and Canadian markets which indicated reports of sticking accelerator pedals had occurred. Toyota recovered parts in order to evaluate the phenomenon. The returned accelerator pedals have the same material friction lever as previously used in the European models (PPS) and, as a result of the internal investigation, Toyota decided to conduct a voluntary safety recall of all vehicles with the subject accelerator pedals. This recall will include vehicles equipped with friction levers made with PPS material, as well as with the PA46 material, which was associated with the rough operation or slow to return symptoms.
Post by: ScotcH on February 01, 2010, 04:00:16 PM
You'd think designers would learn something from race cars by now
Hall effect cam and crank sensors are pretty common, and they certainly do fail, but if they do, it's pretty easy to detect the failure, and just pull the throttle closed (assuming the software is working correctly of course!)
Post by: ssltech on February 01, 2010, 04:28:21 PM
Two of my cars (Audi and Porsche) both have floor-mounted pedals, as did every one of my aircooled vehicles...
But now that I write about it, I'm reminded of a problem which I once experienced in one of my Beetles which I'd actually forgotten about...
In Right-hand-drive aircooled VW's, the throttle cable (which runs down alongside the transmission tunnel, towards the engine which is at the REAR of the car) exits on the LEFT side of the tunnel. For RHD (British, Australian, South African etc) variants, the pedal assembly is moved to the RIGHT side of the car, but the cable attachment is still on the left, but is covered by a small -removable- protective plate. The pedal assembly connects to the clutch cable right at the tunnel, and the accelerator passes all the way THROUGH the tunnel from right-to-left, into the (Left-hand-side) front passenger footwell, where it couples with the end of the throttle cable, under the cover-plate.
I once had a nervous passenger in one of my Beetles in England, who tried to press an "imaginary brake pedal"... and ended up shifting the plate forward, and PUSHING the cable-tip forwards, resulting in the gas-pedal being pressed forwards on MY (driver's RHD) side of the car... This was -of course- as I had left it fairly late braking into a corner... I dipped the clutch and the engine started to scream, at which point I shut it off and rolled to the side of the road.
The incident had been disconcerting, and it took a minute or two to realise why the pedal was stuck forward... and it would NEVER happen in a Left-Hand Drive (USA, Continental Europe, ROW etc.) version of the car... but I do remember the "what the HECK is going on?" confusion and the urge to 'panic'...
However, I urge ANYONE who ever has something like this happen to them to try and think calmly.
Compare and contrast the panic in the Australian Explorer driver's behaviour, with this time-aligned combination recording/reconstruction of the (almost a year ago to the day) Captain Sullenberger incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tE_5eiYn0D0#t=109
Watch very specifically the conversation between Captain Sullenberger and Flight Officer Skiles, which was reconstructed and time-synchronized with both the video reconstruction and the radio-communication recording... Particularly beginning at the bird-strike, just after 3:30...
Calmness and consideration of options is the best way. ALWAYS.
Keith
Post by: ssltech on February 01, 2010, 04:56:40 PM
See also how easy it is for a nervous front-seat passenger to 'brace' themselves by putting their foot forward and -if they cause the cover to shift- open the throttle... -From memory, that cover is held on by only one or two screws, mounted at the bottom, I think.
...Ooooh... and a link to a page featuring a couple of lovely exploded diagrams, showing the multi-concentric linkages, and the differences between aircooled Left-drive and Right-drive pedal assemblies:
http://www.vw-resource.com/brake_adjust.html
Keith
Post by: compasspnt on February 01, 2010, 05:10:05 PM
Each airplane model of course has its own type-specific checklists, and they are drilled into your head. Plus, they are printed and at hand in the cockpit.
For instance, I once had an engine out (in a single!) on long final...had I not immediately and calmly gone into checklist mode ("1. Establish proper glide speed, 2..." etc.) we would likely have had a bad ending...but around option 3 the problem became apparent, and was quickly rectified, resulting in a perfect and easy landing.
It's a shame there aren't checklists for automobiles...if the California Runaway had gone to emergency checklist mode, and started rapidly going through options, he might likely have shifted into neutral in time, and four lives might have been saved.
People, think through these things in advance...be prepared...remain calm and THINK.
Post by: Jay Kadis on February 01, 2010, 05:18:47 PM
Post by: Strummer on February 01, 2010, 09:28:50 PM
It had mechanical throttle linkage. I'd floored it (yes, a kid in dad's car), a motor mount broke, the engine torqued over, pulling and binding the linkage, opening the air intake wide open. The pedal was stuck to the floor. My first thought was to reach down and grab the pedal to pull it up. My second thought was to switch off the ignition.
I suppose eventually the engine would have leveled out and the linkage would have released, but it was a scary few seconds.
Post by: bblackwood on February 01, 2010, 10:02:30 PM
| Jay Kadis wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 16:18 |
Some people seem "hard-wired" to panic while others remain cool. |
I believe this to be 100% correct.
Post by: Edvaard on February 01, 2010, 11:27:40 PM
You guys make me nervous when you say that.
Post by: Roadster on February 02, 2010, 03:32:08 PM
1. Cellphone
2. Inbox on cellphone
3. Fax machine
4. Laptop
5. Hairbrush
6. Ipod
7. ear buds
8. Oops forgot grocery list, no prob, can just text wife doing 70 mph on the interstate and wait for her fax.
Post by: Roadster on February 02, 2010, 04:02:43 PM
It's a Mobile High Tech Storage Device or the XMHTSD as it it’s called in the experimental stage. It’s made out of 3/4" plywood and sits on the passenger seat of your vehicle. It’s a little bulky with reinforced steel braces and such, but it should protect all your toys in the even of a head-on collision. Comes in black and red sparkle only. Am thinking about having the outside cover tucked and pleated.
Post by: compasspnt on February 02, 2010, 04:21:25 PM
Post by: Barkley McKay on February 02, 2010, 04:38:38 PM
In mine its prime, ignition, starting crank...
barks
Post by: DarinK on February 02, 2010, 04:51:52 PM
| bblackwood wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 19:02 | ||
I believe this to be 100% correct. |
Yep. One evening a friend & I were standing in his backyard when something on the utility pole blew up, with a huge flash & loud explosion. I froze in place while he literally ran around in circles. I'd probably fare better in some circumstances (like an automotive emergency), but he'd do better in others (like a sudden outburst of gunfire or a vehicle crashing into a building that we're occupying). Oddly enough, I'm a much more spontaneous musician, while he contemplates every note in advance.
Post by: KB_S1 on February 02, 2010, 05:28:26 PM
Then a few minutes later I discovered that I had very little control over my car heading downhill towards a telegraph pole in heavy snow.
Fortunately the calm mental state and 'checklist' did kick in and it all worked out ok.
A good way to approach all things in life.
Now just to work on every other part of my life I get myself into trouble with!
Post by: Roadster on February 02, 2010, 05:56:39 PM
| compasspnt wrote on Tue, 02 February 2010 15:21 |
Just make it out of "black box" material. |
OK. I could probably do two for $19.95 on my infommercial in that case. But wait! I'll include this handy magnetized check list that hangs in your car if you can find anything metal.
Post by: compasspnt on February 03, 2010, 12:18:42 AM
Post by: Barkley McKay on February 03, 2010, 03:31:13 AM
Faulty pedals and millions of cars recalled: Toyota's reputation accelerates into trouble
Japanese company criticised over 'incredibly dangerous' fault as RoSPA calls for an immediate inquiry
Toyota was under pressure today over the accelerator fault that is forcing it to recall 2m cars across Europe as the RAC described the problem as "incredibly dangerous" and urged concerned owners to have their vehicles checked immediately.
Amid calls for the Japanese company to explain why it had waited for a year before issuing the recall, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents called on the manufacturer to launch an immediate inquiry into why the potentially serious fault was not detected before millions of vehicles were released on to the market.
Yesterday British owners of the eight affected models, which include the Aygo, Yaris, Corolla and Avensis, told how their cars sped beyond their control, and voiced frustration that Toyota dealerships were so slow to deal with the problem.
Catherine Block, 28, told the Guardian how her Aygo careered down a sliproad towards some roadworks on the A2 when her accelerator stuck before she took it to a Toyota dealer last October.
"It was only luck that I wasn't injured or killed, because I eventually figured out for myself how to unjam the pedal while driving," she said.
Another driver described how the throttle stuck at 60mph on a dual carriageway and it took him two and a half miles to slow down enough to drive on to a verge, where the car eventually stalled.
"Toyota needs to look at how this problem came about and why it wasn't picked up at the start in post-production checks," said a spokeswoman for RoSPA. "Was it identified as early as it could have been?"
An RAC spokesman said: "I hope they have done this [product recall] as quickly as they possibly could."
He issued advice to owners. "If your accelerator gets stuck down, it is a very frightening thing to happen at any speed. If your car is feeling slightly different from normal and there is a change in the behaviour of your accelerator, get it checked out straight away."
Toyota also came under criticism in Japan yesterday when the president of the company, Akio Toyoda, decided not to attend a hastily called press conference. In his place was the executive vice-president in charge of quality control, Shinichi Sasaki, who described the issue as unprecedented in scale and said the company was "extremely worried" about its future sales.
Senior management has come under criticism for failing to make a speedy public apology for the recall, which affects more than 8m cars around the world.
"The trust in Japanese quality, in Toyota, has been shaken," said Toshiro Yoshinaga, an analyst at Aizawa Securities in Tokyo.
Toyota said it had received 26 reports from across Europe of the accelerator pedal sticking and not bouncing back into position properly. A spokesman said yesterday the company had begun fitting new cars with a different accelerator last August, but did not initiate a recall until it become apparent that the pedal could become completely stuck down and had to be pulled back up.
Toyota is facing at least 10 lawsuits in north America, where owners have accused it of not acting quickly enough to fix the faulty pedals. Toyota in the UK said it had no evidence that anyone has been injured due to a stuck pedal, but the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it had confirmed that five people had died as a result of trapped floor mats, a related problem which also makes the pedal stick. Toyota said this was not a problem in the UK, but British Toyota drivers have claimed it has caused their accelerator pedals to stick.
"Clearly there is an awful lot of distress caused as a result of this," said David Crouch, a spokesman at the company's UK headquarters in Epsom. "As soon as we started the recall, we opened up a dialogue with Toyota owners, and we have sent out information every day."
Crouch said Toyota could not have discovered the problem in post-
Post by: Collins on February 03, 2010, 10:45:08 AM
shielded from EMI/RF interference?
btw Keith, great link to the FLT 1549 splash.
Paul
Post by: KB_S1 on February 03, 2010, 01:40:05 PM
"It felt as if I was on two wheels," she said. "I was hitting roundabouts at 30mph." Block told the Guardian she had realised the problem was serious last October when her car roared up a slip road at 50mph towards roadworks. "I was holding it back with the brakes but it was quite a struggle. It was a good job my brakes worked, otherwise I would be dead. It was a really scary experience,"
Post by: ssltech on February 03, 2010, 02:44:18 PM
I wasn't sure if the reporter for the 'Grauniad' was just some wanna-be-tabloid-hack, or if the driver really was that 'simple-minded' in terms of absolutes.
I'm not intending the 'simple-minded' term to be particularly derisory, but the tone which was conveyed -to me, at least- was fairly simplistic... from both quoted drivers.
Keith
Post by: Roadster on February 03, 2010, 03:54:25 PM
| Barkley McKay wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 02:31 |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/feb/02/faulty-cars-r ecalled-toyota-reputation Other owners said that driving an out of control Toyota is an unnerving experience. "Negotiating roundabouts was particularly unpleasant," said Catherine Block, a 28-year-old student from Kent, whose stuck accelerator made her Aygo "go mad like a boy racer". |
Well, there's a song.
Post by: ssltech on February 04, 2010, 09:49:27 AM
The Audis use CAN-bus for vehicle-wide system intercommunication, and to make the bluetooth module work, I had to program the module to let it know what model of Audi it was going into, reprogram the navigation system, to let it know that it was now also going to be receiving messages from address 77 (telephone) in addition to all the other messages on the bus (such as from the steering-wheel volume/tuning controls etc), reprogram the steering wheel interface to tell it that it now had a BT module to send messages to, then re-program the canbus installation gateway list of installed devices to include the navigation and telephone modules... oh, and the dashboard instrumentation and dash display are also Canbus, which also has to be programmed to receive and display caller ID info from the BlueTooth module...
So, while I was in there using the VCDS programmer, I took a look at all the other devices which communicate on the CAN bus... and it got me thinking.
While things like the throttle have a DIRECT connection into the ECU (the dedicated engine computer, who's PRIORITY job is to make the engine run as you wish, but also report any issues with any sensors or whatever via the CANbus), and the transmission computer is also controlled directly from the lever, the transmission ALSO takes instructions from the CAN bus... after all, this is how the upshift/downshift paddles talk to the gearbox.
It honestly made me shudder to think about how much stuff is just there, hanging onto a parallel-loaded bus which is really not that far from a glorified 'midi' ...although MIDI was not a 'bus' as such.
-And things like 'cruise control' are enabled over CAN-bus, and the switch positions are read and tested via CAN-bus (I tested this via K-line -pre-CAN bus for VW- on my VW about ten years ago, when I had to diagnose a 'cruise control not working sometimes' fault).
This really is akin to the Airbus A320's 'fly-by-wire' system, where full authority is handed to device controllers which are mechanically REMOVED from the pilot, and a computer interprets the pilot's inputs and converts these to commands for engines, ailerons, elevators, rudder, flaps, air brakes, thrust reversers, etc.
...Only in a car, it's running over a system which is not that far removed from MIDI.
-Now, does anyone remember the earlier MIDI systems, when a random 'note-off' message might get missed, and a note would just STICK on as if you were holding it down...?
...Or when it would think that the sustain pedal was being held down... -wow! -how spooky is THAT comparison?
Keith
Post by: bblackwood on February 04, 2010, 09:55:08 AM
Starting to wonder just what's going @ Toyota...
Post by: ssltech on February 04, 2010, 10:36:42 AM
You can bet that they've had lobbyists on this from the nanosecond that they realised there might be blood in the water. NHTSA and guv'mint departments are being browbeaten as I write this, with reminders (entirely unrelated, of course!) of how many constituents would be grateful for a diligent and visible investigation into the matter.
...And of course, NO investigation where the public safety is threatened should ever be rushed... No, here there must be 'no turn unstoned'. The public deserves it. the public DEMANDS it. (fade up national anthem, dim lights and project amber waves of grain rolling majestically before a golden sunset, in a half-dissolve over a fluttering flag) The brave soldiers who defend our shores, the toiling farmers whos proud offerings grace our tables, the fine engineers who make real our dreams of space travel, the fair young flowers who will mother future generations and raise their young to God's glory... ALL have been misled by a cynical, profit-whore from the land of the rising sun, and we DEMAND that this be FULLY investigated.
(...meanwhile we're having a sale.)
Dealerships for all the Detroit-three reported noticeably increased foot traffic this last weekend. -This is playing VERY well, and I have little doubt what sort of noises John Dingell will be making right now.
-This is why Toyota needed to get out IN FRONT of this nonsense, as I said from BEFORE things started to spiral down, -and they've got further to go downwards... Detroit will make VERY sure of that. -The general -and immediate instinctive reaction from myself and others was almost identical to the Tiger woods story, when the initial 'damage control' statements started to come out: "I don't buy it, and I wonder why you're not just admitting to what everyone pretty much believes is true..."
-I wonder how the general perception of Nissan/Infiniti is doing right now? -Are they being 'tarred' with the 'asian manufacturer suspicion' brush, or are they benefiting from a 'reliable brand which ISN'T Toyota' feeling...?
Keith
Post by: Barkley McKay on February 04, 2010, 12:00:16 PM
Barks.
PS, I'm VERY glad that I have direct mechanical control over every aspect of my car.
Post by: Roadster on February 04, 2010, 01:42:12 PM
Post by: ssltech on February 04, 2010, 01:43:40 PM
Actually, I may be over in Blighty next week... can't say for sure just yet... If I can get over to Leeds, you want to show me how a decent cup of Yorkshire tea is made?
Keith
Post by: Barkley McKay on February 04, 2010, 01:44:42 PM
Post by: Collins on February 04, 2010, 01:46:18 PM
What model/year Audi do you have? I have a 2004 A4 Avant, 3.0L,6speed.
I like this car. It really does well in the weather
we've had in NC this last week and the AWD is very
smooth at +highway speeds.
I've had a couple of CEL issues related to a coil misfire,
but that's about it.
Thanks.
Post by: ssltech on February 04, 2010, 04:54:46 PM
Hmmmm 2004 A4, I can't remember if that's the B6 or B7 chassis... B6 I suspect. -They used a combination of K-wire and CAN bus in the B7 I'm pretty sure, and I think only the (2009 and later) B8 version of the A4 uses full CAN-bus for everything, so yours MAY be a K-wire verison... I've never worked on one. -I do have a VAG-COM for K-wire cars as well as a separate one for CAN-bus, so if you ever have a CEL in the Orlando area, I can 'plug-in, tune-up, and turn-off'...
I bought an A3 sportback in late '08, mainly for the 'open-skye' roof. My son LOVES it in the back, and -as with all of my cars- it didn't stay stock for very long... but I only bought it because creeping arthritis means that I can no longer drive a manual transmission as my daily driver... this is my first self-shifter, and having cross-shopped every alternative, I knew that I HAD to have a twin-clutch vehicle, and not a torque-converter slush-o-matic... (shudder!) That meant a GTI or an A3... and the A3 just looks nicer to me, even if they're really the same car under the make-up.
The 2.0T FSI motor has a potential issue with the high-pressure fuel pump cam follower, but I plan to replace mine every 35,000 miles, and inspect the follower and cam lobe every 18k or mid-point, as a matter of course. The later TFSI replaced the solid-face cam follower with a roller... end of problem, but I missed out on that upgrade by about a month or so.
I diagnose all my CEL's myself BEFORE going to the dealership (even though I'm still well under warranty), and my service writer knows me by name when I arrive... I've been going to the same VW dealership for 15 years now, and everyone there also knows me by name also... the service writer in the next booth to my own service writer has known me for over a decade (he used to work at the VW place) and it's become my habit to deliver a 12-pack of beer each Christmas... It's amazing how well they remember your name after that, and the service quality and attention that you get from doing that one small thing once a year, pays for itself MANY times over.
My Porsche has been serviced by the same man since its very first service; and for a quarter of a million miles now... I'm a great believer that for certain things, you absolutely HAVE to hire a specialist.
Keith
Post by: ssltech on February 04, 2010, 08:13:10 PM
Get the kettle on!
Post by: ssltech on February 05, 2010, 01:54:25 PM
Post by: Collins on February 05, 2010, 01:59:41 PM
| ssltech wrote on Thu, 04 February 2010 16:54 |
The coilpacks do go bad... but they're much better than the older system of points, condensor, coil, distributor, spark-plug-leads... Personally, I just replace them at 4 years/50,000 miles simply 'on account of...' Hmmmm 2004 A4, I can't remember if that's the B6 or B7 chassis... B6 I suspect. -They used a combination of K-wire and CAN bus in the B7 I'm pretty sure, and I think only the (2009 and later) B8 version of the A4 uses full CAN-bus for everything, so yours MAY be a K-wire verison... I've never worked on one. -I do have a VAG-COM for K-wire cars as well as a separate one for CAN-bus, so if you ever have a CEL in the Orlando area, I can 'plug-in, tune-up, and turn-off'... Keith |
I actually got a service notice from Audi the other week about the coilpacks and some defect. That would explain the
OBD codes i get, though the engine seems to run smooth?
yep, B6 chassis.
haha...appreciate the offer, my service guy did the code reset last time after i was made aware that i could not
get my state inspection if the CEL was on.
I'll bet the A3 is a fun drive.
back to topic...sort of.
Toyota Says Cup Holders Still Working Great
Rest Your Beverages With Confidence, Says Carmaker
TOKYO (The Borowitz Report) – Embattled automaker Toyota today said that despite problems with accelerators and brakes, the cup holders on its most popular car models were “perfectly safe to use.”
“Feel free to enjoy the beverage of your choice and know that you can rest it in one of our cup holders with confidence,” said Toyota spokesman Hiroshi Kyosuke. “Our cup holders are world-class.”
But Mr. Kyosuke’s upbeat comments about Toyota’s cup holders were undercut somewhat later in the day by congressional testimony from Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.
“You should only feel safe to use your cup holder if your Toyota is parked in your driveway,” Mr. LaHood said. “At 80 miles per hour, the cup holder becomes a rocket launcher.”
Toyota’s stock plunged 17 percent on the Transportation Secretary’s remarks, prompting him to issue the following statement: “Opposite of what I said.”
Post by: ssltech on February 05, 2010, 04:38:53 PM
The orange beastie is the one in which I experienced the 'unintended acceleration' surprise... I shaved the handles and dechromed the trim strips, lowered the car, rebuilt the motor and did a few very nice body mods. The far one was the race car, the middle one was a bone-stock restored 1200.
It's a poor photo taken on a cloudy day, but that orange one absolutely GLEAMED. -It had six coats of clear, fully wet-sanded and polished between each coat... Looked like it was coated in glass!
Post by: Barkley McKay on February 06, 2010, 07:14:57 AM
| ssltech wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 01:13 |
Barks... you have a PM. Get the kettle on! |
email sent...
Post by: Barry Hufker on February 06, 2010, 11:38:55 AM
| ssltech wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 15:38 |
Here's a photo of the Parr Street Studio car park circa 1993, with a few of my aircooled bugs in it: The orange beastie is the one in which I experienced the 'unintended acceleration' surprise... I shaved the handles and dechromed the trim strips, lowered the car, rebuilt the motor and did a few very nice body mods. The far one was the race car, the middle one was a bone-stock restored 1200. It's a poor photo taken on a cloudy day, but that orange one absolutely GLEAMED. -It had six coats of clear, fully wet-sanded and polished between each coat... Looked like it was coated in glass! |
Looks like you scrubbed too hard on the license plates tho'
Barry
Post by: Barkley McKay on February 06, 2010, 12:04:25 PM
Post by: compasspnt on February 13, 2010, 02:43:58 PM
By PETER COHAN
Posted 9:30 AM 02/13/10 Daily Finance
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/company-news/how-recall-pl agued-toyota-lost-its-way/19357113/
Toyota (TM) has now recalled about 9 million vehicles and counting, including the latest recall involving 8,000 2010 Toyota Tacomas to inspect their front drive-shaft which could contain a cracked part that could get even worse when customers drive the truck. When joined with the sudden acceleration problems and flawed breaking systems of various other Toyota models, it seems likely that Toyota has lost its way. The reason? Toyota abandoned the Toyota Way in its quest for growth.
The Toyota Way was a management method in which newly hired Toyota engineers would work closely for 10 years with experienced masters who taught the newbies how to make the trade-offs between the pressure to lower costs and the need to maintain high quality, according to the Washington Post. The Toyota Way enabled Toyota to produce high quality vehicles less expensively and charge a price premium, about which I wrote, since they lasted longer and cost less to maintain.
That strategy contributed heavily to Toyota's growth over many decades because that reputation for top quality attracted more satisfied customers who recommended Toyota to others. But all that changed in the early 2000s. As I posted, in 2002 Toyota saw a chance to overtake General Motors as the world's largest vehicle manufacturer which set Toyota on a too-rapid growth path -- it produced 60% more vehicles in 2008 than in 2000 -- that stressed the Toyota Way to its breaking point.
While all the details have yet to be unearthed, a general picture of what went wrong is emerging. The biggest problem is that as Toyota grew, it was unable to produce enough engineering mentors to train for 10 years the new engineers that it was hiring to design the new models needed to meet its corporate growth targets. The new engineers made bad design choices which lowered cost and quality -- under the Toyota Way, remember, engineers had been able to cut costs while maintaining or boosting quality.
There were other problems as well -- from Toyota's decision-making style to ignoring customer complaints -- that allowed these bad design decisions to persist. For example, although most of Toyota's sales came from North America, all corporate decisions were made in Japan -- where Toyota executives lacked in-depth insights into the conditions in the U.S. market.
And as the Washington Post reported, Toyota's executives outlined specific process problems that contributed to the nine million vehicle recall:
Toyota did not thoroughly test new cars under a variety of road conditions -- instead relying on computer models which missed problems such as Prius brakes not working well on wet road surfaces;
Toyota did not gather customer complaint data from U.S. customers to identify problems and redesign its products and processes; and
Toyota did not share data about sticking gas pedals in European vehicles with managers in the U.S.
So now that all this information is out, does this mean that Toyota stock -- now trading 43% below its December 2006 all-time high of $134 -- is a screaming buy? At a Price/Earnings to Growth (PEG) ratio of 2.1 -- on a forward P/E of 25.2 and average annual earnings growth of 12% for the next five years -- the stock is not cheap.
And since I believe it will take another year for Toyota to find all the problems and discover the underlying causes of all of them, I am not expecting Toyota to be able to redesign its management methods and fix all the problems it discovers for another three to five years.
Until then, its earnings growth forecasts are suspect and I would not be shocked to see more big recalls which could further sink its stock price.
Post by: Jay Kadis on February 13, 2010, 03:56:38 PM
Post by: Jon Hodgson on February 14, 2010, 07:20:29 AM
Post by: johnR on February 15, 2010, 03:10:54 PM
| compasspnt wrote on Thu, 28 January 2010 17:15 |
I WILL NOT BUY A COMPUTER ACCELERATION CONTROLLED VEHICLE. Even if it means always buying used. |
This is my attitude too. It wouldn't be so bad if aircraft-style redundant backup systems were used, but they aren't.
There seems to be a tendency in the design of many software controlled products to ignore what could happen when things go wrong. There's a certain amount of blind trust in the technology which is not so apparent in traditional mechanical design.
Post by: ScotcH on February 15, 2010, 09:19:14 PM
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w66/aQuarius-26/?action=v iew¤t=PossessedSteering.flv
Post by: DarinK on February 19, 2010, 05:20:59 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=atXv i2msqPOM
Post by: ssltech on February 22, 2010, 03:15:30 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/video/politics-15749652/toyota-flaws-c ould-free-convict-18269140
Now the victims get full public empathy in a rising swell of public annoyance toward Toyota. -And probably some money as well.
Keith
Post by: bblackwood on February 22, 2010, 03:51:26 PM
| Quote: |
Documents: Toyota boasted saving $100M on recall WASHINGTON (AP) — New documents shared with congressional investigators could raise concerns on Capitol Hill that Toyota was more concerned with profits than safety. Toyota officials claimed they saved the company $100 million by successfully negotiating with the government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles. The savings are listed under the title, "Wins for Toyota — Safety Group." The document cites millions of dollars in other savings by delaying safety regulations, avoiding defect investigations and slowing down other industry requirements. The world's largest automaker has been criticized for responding too slowly to safety concerns that led to the recall of millions of vehicles. The company's president will appear before Congressional committees this week. A Toyota statement insists safety is the company's first priority. |
Post by: Barkley McKay on February 22, 2010, 03:59:18 PM
barks
Post by: Hallams on February 27, 2010, 01:42:37 AM
How come Toyota is not having these recall issues in Australia? Is it a coincidence that in a time of EXTREME difficulty for the historical US car manufactures Ford and GM,...all of a sudden Toyota starts to commit suicide???????? It's all industrial espionage and media propaganda.
Post by: ScotcH on February 27, 2010, 04:08:09 PM
Guess what happened? The truck started slowing down, with the engine RPMs dropping proportinately. I got down to about 40kph before letting off ... I'm sure I could have brought it to a full stop.
Keep in mind this thing is like 5400lbs, has a 5.7L V8 in it with shitloads of torque, and the brakes could easily overcome the engine power. There was no drop in brake boost at WOT.
So, back to my inital thought that brakes will overcome engine power, unless somethign else is in the way (electronics, or some shit). I'll try it in my M3 when I get it out of storage in the spring.
Post by: ssltech on February 27, 2010, 06:32:55 PM
That's not an entirely valid test as you described it; you can do that ONCE with the brake pedal, and feel reassured...
...But...
...that's not what these people who died were doing.
Try that test again of you like, but this time keep the gas pedal pressed firmly in the mat, and then hit the brakes witl all you've got, release the pedal after a second or so, then hit the brakes, release, hit the brakes.... all the while NEVER LETTING UP on the gas pedal.
After about four cycles, you'll have a sudden butthole-pucker moment, when you discover that your brakes are suddenly no longer capable of slowing the vehicle!
I'm deadly serious... try it.
See the last moment before you 'floored it', you were at part-throttle, and your intake manifold was under vacuum. The Brake servo booster reservoir was topped off.
Same thing happens when you stop the engine anr take the key out in your driveway... you can 'cycle' the brake pedal a few times, before you get a 'hard pedal' and the brakes go so weak that you have to put all your weight on the pedal just to stop the vehicle rolling down a gentle driveway slope at 5MPH in neutral... now imagine similarly impotent brakes on a family sedan with a 300 horsepower motor stuck full-on, and you'll see what killed people.
Now, if you ever do try the above described test, (cycling the brake pedal to drain the booster vacuum reservoir) then KNOW HOW TO FIX IT before you perform the test: -To make the brakes work again, LIFT the gas pedal FULLY. -The brake reservoir should be filled after about a half-second, and your brakes will work normally. -However, be advised that your stopping distance will be a little longer than normal, since your brake friction surfaces will likely be hot. -DO NOT boil the brake fluid by keeping the brake pedal held down for too long, or you'll have to drain and flush the braking system (which you should do every two years anyhow...)
Keith
Post by: ScotcH on February 27, 2010, 08:32:20 PM
Post by: ssltech on February 27, 2010, 09:24:58 PM
So brake-fade -as you know- will play one part, but the other is the depletion of the vacuum reserve. Unfortunately, the 'disorientation' feeling when the throttle goes wide-ass-all-the-way-open then gets compounded by the brakes -which they tried a couple of times- suddenly failing also... so right at the time when they're trying to figure out what the hell is going wrong... MORE stuff goes wrong and completely throws them.
Keith
Post by: MDM, on February 28, 2010, 09:37:51 AM
they should teach you this stuff when you get your license.
Post by: ssltech on February 28, 2010, 10:54:12 AM
| MDM, wrote on Sun, 28 February 2010 09:37 |
woah.. they should teach you this stuff when you get your license. |
Sadly, not all cars are the same.
Aircooled VWs don't have brake servos, so they don't have this problem... however, they usually have drum brakes, which have a different set of problems...
Keith
Post by: ScotcH on February 28, 2010, 06:40:49 PM
- Acceletared to about 100kph by matting the gas
- while floored, I hit the brakes, and slowed down to about 40
- still floored, I let up, and again it accelerated,
- repeat.
Did that about 5 times, without letting off the gas at all. Each time the brakes worked as expected ... on the last time, the check engine light came on
I guess the truck didn't like being floored for 2 minutes straight (it happenes occasionally ... I suspect O2 sensor).Anyway, at least in my case, the brake vacuum seems fine, and they are able to ovecome the engine power and slow down the truck. I guess the real test would be to actually come to a complete stop, but I don't really wanna blow up the damn thing, even if it's getting old
I guess all cars are different, and certainly neutral/engine off is the best way to prevent run-away (if the car allows it), but at least in my truck, just pushing the brakes WILL slow it down. Of course, the panic and unexpetedness of this, had it happened without me doing it would certainly make it a more hairy experience ... it's one thing to plan and execute a test like this, quite another to have something fail completely while you don't expect it (try a broken front control while doing 120k+ coming into a turn at a race track ... no steering = no fun!)
The real solution? Everyone needs to learn to drive stick, and have a real clutch they can simply push in. Done!
Post by: Nick Sevilla on March 01, 2010, 07:42:46 AM
No electronics to mess with your driving...
I'm getting me a fast one.
Post by: ssltech on March 01, 2010, 09:28:45 AM
I forgot one thing, and though it may or may not be relevant in your specific case, I should mention it none the less:
-SOME vehicles have auxiliary vacuum pumps to create the vacuum pressure, which frees them from the burden of relying exclusively on the manifold vacuum caused by the throttle plate shutting-off the pipe, and thereby creating a vacuum.
Examples of this are diesel vehicles (since diesel engines don't have a throttle) and the new Infiniti gasoline engines, which also don't have a throttle plate. As a result, they have either mechanical vacuum-pumps which are driven by the engine turning (and therefore not subject to the whims and vagaries of fluctuating manifold vacuum... if the engine is turning, you've got vacuum!) and may be replaced or supplemented by electric vacuum pumps, which -if enabled- would also allow vacuum servo when the engine has not been running, such as when the key is inserted, but before the engine is started.
I can't say that I'm familiar with the Chevy way of doing things, but it occurs to me that if there's a vacuum pump in the system (whether mechanically or electrically driven) then that would alter the equation significantly.
I do know that on the VW/Audi/Porsche motors which I deal with, the vacuum is all manifold-generated, and I've personally experienced the 'laxative' sensation of vacuum dissipation... -It's a very sickening thing! -Of course I'm also only really speculating, in extrapolating that this is why people are reporting brake failure, but it seems to make sense.
Now that brings be to another thought though; if you think that drive-by-wire is scary, the Nissan/Infiniti VVEL motor is REALLY taking things to another bold level.
In a standard gasoline engine, the manifold connects the intake valves on all the cylinders to the throttle plate. The downward-sliding pistons -sucking air past the intake valves as they open- creates a vacuum behind the throttle plate, and the amount of vacuum is proportional to how 'closed' the throttle plate is. This controls how many air molecules are drawn into the combustion chamber, and -once the corresponding amount of fuel is spritzed in from the injectors to maintain a correct air-fuel ratio- this controls how much power the engine generates.
The valves are opened mechanically by the camshaft, -the spinning bump-stick where the bumps push on lifters and open the valves. -As a result, the lift (how far they open) and the duration timing (how LONG they are open for) are fixed by the shape of the bump on the cam. Variable cam timing is available on certain motors, which allows the whole process to be shifted slightly sooner or later, to compensate for the inertia of the air molecules and thereby maintain a good power-efficiency ratio throughout a wider range of engine speeds, but the lift and duration are essentially fixed. (ignoring crude 'cheats' like Honda V-TEC).
In the newer Nissan conceptual direction however, the air allowed into the cylinders is governed in a rather different manner... -There is no throttle plate. The manifold is open to atmosphere with no throttle restriction. The intake air charge is instead determined by varying the intake valve lift and duration, over a dramatic degree, and now electrically control the intake valves. Now, not only do they have full control over lift and duration, but they can infinitely vary ALL aspects of the valve operation, including initiation timing.
To say that this is revolutionary in terms of power and efficiency is an understatement. Couple direct-injection with full electronic control of intake valve timing, and you have an incredible engine.
Now of course, back in the days of mechanical accelerator cable-driven engines, this would have been absolutely impractical, but the transition to drive-by-wire and electronic sensor input has made this engine a reality. -But it generates no vacuum, and so a parallel vacuum pump absolutely HAS to be added; otherwise the vacuum servo-assistance has to be abandoned in favour of another solution.
If you believe that the adoption of drive-by-wire is risky, the newer developments along the lines of the VVEL motor have to be viewed as one step even further down the path of chance... but at least the Nissan brakes will still be able to stop you in case everything goes awfully, HORRIBLY wrong!
-Keith
Post by: ScotcH on March 01, 2010, 10:07:08 AM
As I said earlier ... this is just one reason why I would never own a modern autotragic transmission car (or even a SMG/DSG, which has electronically controlled shifts, even if they are superior to humans at shifting) ... there is simply no direct control over what is going on, and that scares me. Not to mention that I like rowing the gears myslef of course
Post by: ssltech on March 01, 2010, 11:38:48 AM
Sadly for me, advancing arthritis in my right hand/wrist meant that I can no longer drive exclusively manual vehicles, so I was forced to buy a self-shifter.
Having test-driven several automatics, I bought a DSG because I can't abide slushy torque-converters, and because of the uber-quick changes in manual mode... but I was immensely relieved when the factory warranty was extended to 100,000 miles, because all that complexity makes me nervous.
I still love the track Porsche for the thrill of rowing through the gears though. -For as long as my arthritis allows, I'll always enjoy nailing a corner and feeling the boost build after the apex.
-Keith
Post by: Ian Visible on March 02, 2010, 09:20:20 AM
Post by: ssltech on March 03, 2010, 09:36:35 AM
So I've just received a replacement gas pedal assembly for the Audi. -I was curious to know how they work, so I ordered another one. I'm looking at it now...
...And something occurs to me which simply hadn't done so before.
-I wonder how many of the affected vehicles were automatic-transmission equipped... -this is not such a random question, because I'm looking at the Audi gas pedal, and the auto-transmission version is DIFFERENT to the manual gearbox version, in one possibly very significant way:
The automatic version has an additional switch which is mounted in such a manner that the switch is actuated when the pedal is floored... it's a 'kickdown switch', and is apparently the successor to the old kickdown cable which used to be added to the old mechanically-linked vehicles, to nudge the auto-tranny to drop a cog when you floored the loud pedal suddenly.
...I'd have to run a test, but I wonder what the effect of this switch failing might be? -if it failed in the 'activated' condition, what would the result be in the Audi? -How about in a Toyota?
I don't have a camera with me, but if I can get hold of one, I'll post up a picture of this pedal assembly. The switch basically seems to be a "wide-ass-all-the-way-open" confirmation button...
I'll have to see if I can rig it to operate without the pedal being fully pressed, to see what the effect of a particular failure might be... then I have a couple of friends with auto-box Toyotas, I might try it on them as well.
Keith
Post by: ScotcH on March 03, 2010, 10:03:52 AM
| ssltech wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 09:36 |
...and wait for the other arm to catch up! So I've just received a replacement gas pedal assembly for the Audi. -I was curious to know how they work, so I ordered another one. I'm looking at it now... ...And something occurs to me which simply hadn't done so before. -I wonder how many of the affected vehicles were automatic-transmission equipped... -this is not such a random question, because I'm looking at the Audi gas pedal, and the auto-transmission version is DIFFERENT to the manual gearbox version, in one possibly very significant way: |
Interresting thoughts ... since presumably the majority of Toyotas sold outside of North America are manual transmission, it might be related to why the recall is so USA focused.
Maybe the software interprets the kick-down switch "on" = pedal is floored, regardless of actual pedal position? In any case, regardless of what the mechanical issue it, the software is still the main problem since it lacks enough logic or redundency checking to prevent the condition, or at least the ability to fix it (ie, neutral lock out, off button delay, etc.). Or should that be mechanical redundency? Or should it be driver education before leaving the lot? I dunno.
Post by: ssltech on March 03, 2010, 11:01:45 AM
| ScotcH wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 10:03 |
Maybe the software interprets the kick-down switch "on" = pedal is floored, regardless of actual pedal position? |
The exact same thought which occurred to me. -Of course I can't say without performing a test though, so it's all conjecture... but if I owned an auto-box Toyota, I'd be performing this test right now.
Keith
Post by: ssltech on March 03, 2010, 08:58:52 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_no _fix
Keith
Post by: ScotcH on March 04, 2010, 10:53:33 AM
In other news, Toyota sales up 25% from last year in Canada.
Post by: ssltech on March 04, 2010, 06:26:18 PM
Toyota is apparently not providing EDR information from the crash-related vehicles... according to press reports.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_hi_te/us_toyota_bl ack_boxes
Either they really DO have something to hide, or someone (Detroit?) may have called in a few favors or twisted some arms in the press corps to make it look that way?
Keith
Post by: bblackwood on March 04, 2010, 06:31:55 PM
| ssltech wrote on Thu, 04 March 2010 17:26 |
Either they really DO have something to hide, or someone (Detroit?) may have called in a few favors or twisted some arms in the press corps to make it look that way? |
Either way they're gonna feel this one. I don't see Toyota going away, per se, but this may be the end of their being a major player.
Post by: ssltech on March 04, 2010, 07:40:37 PM
(VW is -I think- currently the largest motor group globally... -I think...)
Post by: bblackwood on March 05, 2010, 09:41:12 AM
Post by: ktownson on March 07, 2010, 12:42:51 AM
And if you want to further a conspiracy theory, does it seem fishy that the U.S. government, which now owns a significant part of two American carmakers, is leaning hard and heavy on the leader in the industry?
Post by: ssltech on March 09, 2010, 10:26:30 AM
http://lusciousgarage.com/blog/P5/
Looks like Toyota were careful to use TWO sets of Hall-effect sensor, for confirmation and redundancy... that's actually pretty clever.
Also, they don't think that there's any way for those pedal mechanisms to physically jam internally... that something external HAS to impede the travel in order for the pedal to 'jam'.
Now...
Yesterday a Prius 'runs away' in San Diego.
http://jalopnik.com/5488716/
I am curious about this...
Firstly, what on earth made him dial 911? Is that EVERYBODY'S reaction? The guy plainly knew about the gas pedal recalls, because he'd been to the dealership to see if his car needed to have anything done. -He was told that his car is not covered.
He reportedly tried to make sure that the pedal was not jammed down, and -apparently- the pedal was in the UP position... that doesn't square with Toyota's position at all.
Hmmmmm... More thought needed. -This assumes that the Prius driver is being entirely truthful, of course.
Keith
Post by: Larrchild on March 09, 2010, 10:44:23 AM
How my company would solve this.
Post by: NelsonL on March 09, 2010, 01:47:35 PM
| Larrchild wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 07:44 |
How my company would solve this. |
Off with their heads?
Post by: Hallams on March 09, 2010, 05:34:22 PM
| NelsonL wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 05:47 | ||
Off with their heads? |
Shock "treatment"....or electric chair?
Post by: Larrchild on March 09, 2010, 08:16:20 PM
I'd never put a computer between the human and the engine.
Post by: danickstr on March 09, 2010, 08:37:52 PM
Post by: ScotcH on March 09, 2010, 09:09:32 PM
Seriously ... the guy was going 90mph ... I suppose it might be scary in a Prius, which will expolde if pushed to 94, but comeon.
And what was the advice given by the cop? USE THE BRAKE. Wow, talk about genius.
Post by: Berolzheimer on March 09, 2010, 11:05:38 PM
| ScotcH wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 18:09 |
Yup, and the money lawsuit chasers start rolling in. Seriously ... the guy was going 90mph ... I suppose it might be scary in a Prius, which will expolde if pushed to 94, but comeon. And what was the advice given by the cop? USE THE BRAKE. Wow, talk about genius. |
And "turn off the car". In 20 minutes of "uncontrolled acceleration" that didn't occur to him? One thing this whole issue points up is that American drivers need to learn to think a little bit.
Post by: Devin Knutson on March 10, 2010, 12:19:34 AM
| Berolzheimer wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 20:05 |
American drivers need to learn to think a little bit. |
There appears to be an extraneous adverb in this sentence. Also, it's exactly three words too long.
Post by: ssltech on March 10, 2010, 09:14:55 AM
| Devin Knutson wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 00:19 | ||
There appears to be an extraneous adverb in this sentence. Also, it's exactly three words too long. |
There is no adverb in that sentence, btw.
Although I'm not sure that I accept everything that the prius driver says as accurate or correct, I do have to say that it's not easy to start or stop a Prius. -Not as easy as say turning off a key.
The Lexus driver last year couldn't figure out how to stop the engine either.
Keyless cars are all very clever, but that really IS the height of laziness, and I never wish to own one. There is NO compelling argument for totally keyless entry etc. and the only reason it's caught on is because it 'looks neat'.
I know that in trying to make things COMPLETELY foolproof, you run the risk of underestimating the average fool, but even smart people have a brain-freeze when faced with sudden, shocking danger.
Let's say that the person next to you dropped on the floor right now and started convulsing. -How many people would know what to do when suddenly faced with something shocking? -Would you loosen their collar? raise their legs? throw water in their face? Sure, you could take twenty seconds to think about it now, and maybe come up with an idea... but when you're suddenly SHOCKED abruptly, you don't do anywhere near the same amount of productive thinking in twenty seconds. -When your ideas start to 'loop' or 'repeat', you've probably had all the ideas which you're going to have.
Which is why I think that keyless engine start coupled with the lack of a simple, foolproof means of aborting the engine's power is the single DUMBEST idea that auto manufacturers have had.
I also don't use keychains, key rings or key fobs. I just use a key on its own. About 20 years ago, I had my car key on a ring with 3 or 4 other keys, and I accidentally nudged the key chain with my knee while I was driving. -This nudged the key into the 'accessory' position, and cut the engine. -The disorientation which followed probably lasted for about four or five seconds, but it seemed like an eternity, and most of my thoughts seemed to begin with "what the....???".
Sudden disorientation, haptic conflict or sensory contradiction causes brain-lock. When people don't UNDERSTAND how things work, they frequently can't come up with a solution when things don't work as they should.
The 'dumbing-down' of cars; automatic transmissions, 'keyless' engines, predictive everything, ABS, excessive power assistance for steering and braking and so forth all serve to -little by little- cocoon the driver, insulating and disconnecting him from what is happening. The driver begins to build the expectation that the vehicle will work safely no matter what, and he is progressively separated from any feedback in the same way that an auto-aligning multitrack doesn't 'tell' you how difficult it was to make spec. -You lose touch with the mechanics.
Unfortunately cars are as dangerous as ever, and the more a vehicle 'liberates' the driver from interactions with its operation, the more the drivers seem to find other ways to occupy their minds. -Witness the rise in texting while driving.
Nowadays, drivers seem to be surprised when they hit something, because they were trying to change the EQ settings on their iPod in the fast lane, when a text came in...
To an extent, they've got themselves to blame for wanting cars that were so "easy to drive".
Keith
Post by: Larrchild on March 10, 2010, 10:16:59 AM
When the thing that controlled the power locked up (computer), you still had to pull the computer out and pull it's AC cord. Very elegant and well-conceived, eh?
I was just waiting for this to come to cars, sigh.
Post by: Devin Knutson on March 10, 2010, 01:01:34 PM
| ssltech wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 06:14 | ||||
There is no adverb in that sentence, btw. |
I know, but it seemed to read better than "extraneous plural noun"
Post by: bblackwood on March 10, 2010, 01:09:36 PM
| Larrchild wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 09:16 |
I remember when Macs and PC's went to a soft power switch and removed the real inline AC switch. When the thing that controlled the power locked up (computer), you still had to pull the computer out and pull it's AC cord. Very elegant and well-conceived, eh? I was just waiting for this to come to cars, sigh. |
When you posted that pic, it hit me how simple and effective it would be - without air, fuel, and fire, engine no go....
Post by: Edvaard on March 10, 2010, 06:13:43 PM
I understand this statement ...
| ssltech wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 09:14 |
To an extent, they've got themselves to blame for wanting cars that were so "easy to drive". Keith |
given the qualifier "to an extent."
But so many products today offer a phalanx of bells and whistles not necessarily out of any stated desire of customers, but from impetus of manufacturers trying desperately to differentiate their products from competitors'. "You may not need this, but we have it and our competitors don't." Except that before long they all have variations of it, like it or not.
So it comes to being an intra-manufacturer techno-competition then, more than providing any real utility to the user.
Post by: ssltech on March 10, 2010, 10:22:49 PM
...in fact I edited the 'to an extent' on after a moment's thought. I realised that my initial thought (that they only had themselves to blame) was definitely ascribing the blame far too one-sidedly.
But it's incredible how when someone sees the keyless thing for the first time, they are 'seduced' by it VERY quickly. The fact that nobody thinks to ask 'so could this be dangerous, do you think?' is kinda led by the manufacturers, but I do also think that the driver culture these days has also become FAR too much "make it like a refrigerator", insofar as nobody wants to 'drive' -they all want to 'travel' and have the car do the 'driving' as much as possible.
This IS a downside to that approach.
Hell, when I moved to the US, I was required to re-take my driving test. -The young girl who tested me never paid attention to the various hazards... she spent the whole time chewing gum with her mouth open, gazing vacantly out of the side window, and occasionally calling out directions... Eventually sha started asking me where I was from and what it was like driving on the 'wrong' side of the road. -And SHE was testing ME.
Keith
Post by: Edvaard on March 10, 2010, 11:17:21 PM
Yup, the other side of what I pointed out previously is that there are people who just look at the latest gee-whiz tomfoolery and say "wow, neat" and think it's just the cat's pyjamas, something to show off to friends, "lookit this!", etc. Keyless unlock and entry to a vehicle I might see some actual utility for on few occasions, with armfuls of baggage, etc., but I don't understand why anyone would not say to themselves, "but, what if ... " when having keyless start proposed to them. It causes an immediate "no way!" response from me.
Aside from the marketing provocation for some of this technology, I think too that there might be the situation that that's just how things are done now. To NOT automate everything in sight is just being out of step with the times. Having direct control over things rather than through some logic controlled intermediary is considered outmoded, pass
Post by: ktownson on March 12, 2010, 09:37:58 AM
I love computers, but I don't think they belong in cars. All they seem to do is reduce the number of people qualified to work on your car, so you have to take it to the dealer. Hmmm?
Anyone remember the joke email that used to go around about what if Microsoft made a car?
Post by: Collins on March 12, 2010, 03:01:15 PM
| Quote: |
As it stands now, perhaps all driving schools and public school driver education classes should add run away vehicle training to the course. Ha! |
heh...perhaps Toyota should add passenger side pedals like the driver education vehicles...put some in the back seats too.
More braking power.
You know the old saying, "...a family that brakes together..."
PC
Post by: ssltech on March 12, 2010, 04:29:23 PM
Hmmmmm...
Post by: ktownson on March 12, 2010, 11:01:36 PM
Post by: ssltech on March 13, 2010, 09:23:15 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100313/ap_on_re_us/us_runaway_p rius
Apparently the driver has lawyered-up with the same law firm which represents the four who died... -well... they ARE only a few miles away.
Apparently he was asked on the phone to shift into neutral several times, but never replied to the suggestions. -When asked afterwards why he didn't shift into neutral, he said that 'he considered going into neutral but worried he might go into reverse or flip.' ...-Yeah. -But apparently never conveyed these concerns verbally. oh, and crashing head-first is SO much more appealing!
In addition, he never replied or responded, remaining silent when he was asked to press and hold the engine start button for five seconds.
Also, he said he was too busy trying to talk on the phone and maintain control to operate the shifter. -That simply doesn't sound right to me. -Has anyone here dialled 9-1-1 inside the US from a cellular phone lately? -Many areas have a confirmation that you have to press in order to whittle-out pocket-dials etc. -I know because I had to dial it last year when a Dodge Neon next to me moved into my lane in the wet, realised that I was already there, swerved back suddenly and then fishtailed and hit the barrier at 70MPH, airbags deploying etc... It was a surprise to me, and forced me to LOOK at the phone, locate the digit and press it. -I wasn't expecting it, because I've never dialed it before. -Now, I think it's MUCH harder to get out a cell phone and dial like that while trying to control a runaway car, than it is to carry on talking and move the shifter one click forwards... -I mean, REALLY.
Also, the cop said to reporters: "The brakes were definitely down to hardly any material." -I don't know how he determined that, since I have comparatively easily-inspected disc brakes on all of my cars, but I can't see how much material is left without removing a wheel. I think I'm gonna take a look at a Prius with wheels matching those seen in the footage, and see if it's any easier...
Also he said that he could smell the brakes having burned off. -I contend that he smelled brake FLUID having boiled, and that I could make any of my cars smell that way if I wanted to -for example- perpetrate a hoax...
Now I'm not saying that Toyota's blameless, nor that Toyota's all to blame... I'm just saying that the pieces still don't fit a 'single puzzle' to me at the moment... It's as if there's more than one puzzle got mixed up in the same box, and nobody can be sure until the whole bundle is solved 'how many puzzles' there are.
Keith
Post by: Larrchild on March 13, 2010, 02:14:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLlUgilKqms
Post by: YZ on March 13, 2010, 04:27:46 PM
| ssltech wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 11:23 |
I'm apparently not alone in being slightly suspicious about the latest Prius incident: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100313/ap_on_re_us/us_runaway_p rius Apparently(snip) Keith |
That driver who was afraid to touch the shifter, etc under concerns it may "flip the car" apparently was NOT afraid to bend down and reach the gas pedal to pull it back up, as he stated himself in one of the interviews.
I'd like to hear from anyone with access to a Prius how easy it is to do that 'twist' with the car parked...
Other reports mention a stream of fishy stories about that guy.
Post by: ssltech on March 14, 2010, 01:42:07 PM
http://jalopnik.com/5492199/
Boy, talk about fishy smells... this whole affair is like Grimsby docks at noon on Friday!
Keith
Post by: Barkley McKay on March 15, 2010, 06:45:52 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/15/toyota-runawa y-prius-not-feasible
Toyota Prius's 90mph runaway ride 'not feasible', says leaked government memo
Prius's uncontrollable acceleration not replicated in official tests, but driver's lawyers insist claim is genuine
The case of a runaway Toyota Prius that took its driver on a 30-minute terror ride has been plunged into controversy after an official inquiry failed to find any problem with its accelerator.
The credibility of James Sikes's report is now being questioned, following a leaked memo that found that government investigators could not replicate the problem of the vehicle's uncontrollable acceleration.
Sikes hit the news worldwide last week, after his Prius reached speeds of more than 90mph along a motorway outside San Diego. Sikes called the emergency services, saying that he could not stop the car, despite "standing" on the brakes. Eventually a Californian highway patrol officer had to drive alongside the Prius and tell Sikes to engage the foot brake and handbrake at the same time.
The incident came as Toyota was already reeling from several safety recalls, government investigations into its conduct, and several class-action lawsuits.
Last night, though, a six-page memo was published that casts doubt on Sikes's story. It follows a two-day investigation into the Prius by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Investigators took the car on a two-hour test drive, during which they could not get it to keep accelerating when they pressed both the accelerator and brake pedals at the same time – as Sikes said he had done. Toyota engineers also attended the investigation, and argued that the car's engine has a safety system that automatically cuts the engine power if both pedals are depressed at once.
"It does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically, that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time," said the memo, which was published by the motoring blog Jalopnik.
The memo had been sent to the US congressional committee on oversight and government reform, which recently took evidence from Toyota's president, Akio Toyoda, as part of its inquiry into the company.
The investigation did note, though, that one side of the Prius's front brake pads had been completely worn away, while seven-eighths of the rear brakes had been worn off. According to the memo, "a handful of brake dust fell out" when the car's tires were removed.
Sikes's lawyers insist that his ordeal was genuine. His attorney, John Gomez, said the investigation does not undermine his client's story.
"It's not surprising they couldn't replicate it. They have never been able to replicate an incident of sudden acceleration. Mr Sikes never had a problem in the three years he owned this vehicle," Gomez told reporters. His practice, the Gomez law firm, specialises in personal injury cases.
Sikes's wife, Patty, has also defended her husband, and asked people to leave the couple alone. She told the Huffington Post: "There's no intent at all to sue Toyota. If any good can come out of this, maybe they can find out what happened so other people don't get killed."
Other reports from the US have shown that the Sikeses filed for bankruptcy protection in 2008, after their property business was hit by the slump in the US housing market.
Toyota, which has recalled about 8.1m vehicles to fix problems with their brakes or accelerators, has said it was confused by Sikes's tale. "I'm mystified in how it could happen with the brake override system," said Don Esmond, senior vice-president of automotive operations for Toyota Motor Sales.
During his drive, Sikes was told by the emergency services to put the car into neutral, but declined, saying later that he was afraid this would cause it to "flip".
Post by: ssltech on March 18, 2010, 08:52:23 AM
What I want to know is... who the hell are they asking? -It's plainly NOT the Porsche owners!
-Seriously though... a few years ago, I read somewhere that out of all the Porsches ever produced, something like 90% of them are still extant... whether that means actually registered or simply never reported as scrapped/destroyed I don't know, but the will to maintain the brand is apparently quite strong.
Keith
Post by: bblackwood on April 07, 2010, 11:25:27 PM
Ruh-roh...
Post by: Fibes on April 08, 2010, 01:42:12 PM
I have a client that made me aware of this back in January when he resigned from his 20 year career with Toyota and decided to make a record. That's only the tip of the iceberg.
Post by: bblackwood on April 08, 2010, 01:46:30 PM
| Fibes wrote on Thu, 08 April 2010 12:42 |
Brad, I have a client that made me aware of this back in January when he resigned from his 20 year career with Toyota and decided to make a record. That's only the tip of the iceberg. |
Yah, that's a pretty damning bit of information.
If there's more, as you imply, this could get VERY ugly for Toyota..
Post by: ssltech on April 09, 2010, 01:19:10 PM
Post by: Barkley McKay on April 09, 2010, 01:22:25 PM
Wind resistance slowed me down at 50mph
barks
Post by: ssltech on April 09, 2010, 03:04:10 PM
I reckon it's too much endplay on the fonortner rods... -Common fault on that model.
Check the blinker fluid... (you 'aven't been puttin' that synthetic rubbish in there, 'ave ya?)
Post by: Barkley McKay on April 09, 2010, 03:13:10 PM
I only use the proper lubes.
I check that its got a picture of a Moggie Minor on the front then I know its ok.
b
Post by: ssltech on April 09, 2010, 03:50:58 PM
...plus, the weak, weak panelling on the white ones...
Post by: Barkley McKay on April 09, 2010, 04:18:25 PM
The Connuter Valve is especially hardened.
Its why it always seems as if you are going downhill when traveling South.
Traveling North one must watch out for the "Jibe".
In other words, its shaped like a banana already.