Ashermusic wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 17:06 |
And no doubt some of you will. Muslims are calling for the DEATH of a teacher who committed the sin of allowing her students, after they voted to do so, to name a teddy bear Mohammed. More moderate Muslims only want her to be whipped. No other religion in the modern era has examples of this kind of intolerance even remotely commensurate to this from its adherents. Please spare me the Chrisitianity did this hundreds of years ago, not all Muslims are like this, and the other obvious facts that we are all aware of and acknowledge. |
studiojimi wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 18:22 |
kill everybody |
i dig music wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 22:41 |
asher, no disrespect to you, but it appears like you are trying to call some people out. we all have different opinions and views, but i don't believe anybody here is going to to try to "defend" that. there's all sorts of unbelievable shit going on in this world, but you can't lump in all muslims in to the same basket and tell us that they all feel the same way, or approve of the same things. in the middle east {or everywhere else} you have radical, moderate and stoned nonconformists. it's hard to get people on the same page, but when radicals in any neighborhood are using chainsaws to sever heads and getting away with it, people that live there take notice and don't make to many waves for obvious reasons. what we see and hear about in that part of the world is not only to terrorize us, but to terrorize the people that live there to. the point to this brand of terrorism is to keep any opposition to an ideology or government afraid and compliant. we have seen it in history many times before. it's nothing new. it's very hard to take a stand against. all sorts of things motivate people, but fear usually does the trick in most cases. it should not to be taken lightly. |
JS wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 16:14 |
But then, before we Westerners take the moral high road, let us not forget that 50 years ago in certain parts of this continent an African-American could easily be lynched for any number of insignificant reasons. As I understand it, from the late 19th century through the 60's there were literally thousands of lynchings. Don't get me wrong, I'm not analogizing racists with "religion"...but ..... |
Ashermusic wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 23:06 |
And no doubt some of you will. Muslims are calling for the DEATH of a teacher who committed the sin of allowing her students, after they voted to do so, to name a teddy bear Mohammed. More moderate Muslims only want her to be whipped. No other religion in the modern era has examples of this kind of intolerance even remotely commensurate to this from its adherents. Please spare me the Chrisitianity did this hundreds of years ago, not all Muslims are like this, and the other obvious facts that we are all aware of and acknowledge. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 17:10 |
We cannot deal with the cultural differences if we do not acknowledge they exist and be willing to simply say that it is wrong to advocate putting a person to death for this kind of offense. |
Larrchild wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 01:26 |
As I Dig Music put it really well, these countries have a vested interest in people-control through fear. |
malice wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 18:38 | ||
But is it ok to emprison and torture a person for no clear reason without giving him the right to get a proper defense according to our laws ? malice |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 20:41 | ||||
No it is not. But it is better than killing him. |
mgod wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 16:55 | ||
50 years ago? How long ago was it that a man in Texas was was chained to the back of pickup truck and torn in two? Must have been those Texas Muslims did it. Asher, it was Polish Catholics who put my family in gas chambers and ovens, while the Pope watched. It was Polish catholics who slaughtered Jews in 1946 when they returned home. Do I think this could happen again? In a heartbeat - do I think this could happen again here - yes, but this time it might be you doing it to Muslims. I don't mean that as a personal insult - this shit begins somewhere. Usually inside people. May I suggest with respect and love - please calm down. No one means you any harm. The world evolves. I'm married to an Irish/German/Swedish catholic girl. You can't force anyone to see it your way. Lucky for me. Its another thing to appreciate about America - you live in a land where you agree with the laws. If you didn't you could go elsewhere. How about you start a thread in which we all get to list all the things we don't like elsewhere? How about we just focus on our opinions of Africa and see how high up on the list this one is? Some religious fanatics going apoplectic in Africa means little to me - I'm more concerned about religious fanaticism at home - condemnation of Islam being one manifestation of it in my opinion. There - got what you were looking for? DS |
malice wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 19:48 | ||||||
1) This poor teacher has not been sentenced to death as far as I know. 2) torture being better than death is highly debatable 3) Does the expression wiping your own floor before giving lesson to anyone else rings a bell now ? malice 3) |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 20:53 |
You have no sense of proportion, do you? The torture of hundreds is identical to you to the killing of thousands? |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51 |
1. I am calm. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51 |
2. No there are people who do mean me harm and you harm also because we do not share their values or religion. The difference is I acknowledge it and you dismiss it. The Jews in Germany did the same thing. And Hitler and Stalin, who killed the vast majority of people killed in the 20th century, were not Christians or Jews. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51 |
Slumber on, folks, slumber on. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51 |
1. I am calm. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51 |
2. No there are people who do mean me harm and you harm also because we do not share their values or religion. The difference is I acknowledge it and you dismiss it. The Jews in Germany did the same thing. And Hitler and Stalin, who killed the vast majority of people killed in the 20th century, were not Christians or Jews. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51 |
3. There is a difference between the actions of people in isolated incidents and the religious/ cultural belief in the correctness of these actions of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. Slumber on, folks, slumber on. |
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Why? There are only two possible reasons that I can come up with: 1. They are afraid they will be killed. 2. They agree with the actions. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 13:52 |
Jay, apparently you are not aware that the Cole was bombed, the WTC attacked twice, attacks on the Spanish, the British, and, oh yeah, the French and Germans, who did not support the Iraq war. You underestimate them at your peril. |
Larrchild wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 22:12 | ||
If you apply this model to why Italians didn't have a public outcry against the Cosa Nostra, you would find it to be mainly "1", eh? |
Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 22:13 | ||
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Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 13:52 |
Those who carried out Hitler and Stalin's orders were not doing so because of Christian philosophy or beliefs or in its name. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 13:52 |
When the U.S. engages in war with Iraq and in the opinion of some kills innocents wrongfully... |
mgod wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 22:32 | ||||
So they did it despite their faith which explicitly forbids them from harming another person. You're quibbling about words. There have been tens of millions slaughtered in Jesus' name. They've still got the edge over Islam when it comes to numbers.
In the opinion of some? I'm not interested in defending the actions of some loony Muslims in Africa- I'm more more concerned with and interested in the Western obsession with the so-called Islamic threat to our precious civilization. The threat in my own back yard is bigger - and a far greater danger to our civilization. Witness the rationales for fear, war and hate put forth here. DS |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 17:00 |
Those "loony Muslims in Africa" share views about the way to treat those with different values with hundreds of thousands of others, perhaps millions, and you are making it sound like they are a handful. They are not. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 15:00 |
I can walk out in the middle of a street and say, "George Bush is a fascist" or "Catholic priests are all pedophiles" or "Jesus was an homo" and while it is possible I will offend some individual who will be moved to throw a punch at me I will not be imprisoned or killed by the government or police, no responsible religious group will be calling for my execution, etc. |
i dig music wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 16:23 |
how would you determine who is bad or good? |
Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 00:00 |
And indeed, that DOES make our civilization "precious." |
malice wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 03:07 | ||
All civilisations are "precious" regardless malice |
i dig music wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 00:23 | ||
so asher, what do you want to do about the "hundreds of thousands of others, perhaps millions" of muslims? maybe....just maybe....it's a few arsehole's ruining things for everybody else in the world. maybe....just maybe...... as mgod has has pointed out to you very clearly, history is repeating. same game. new place. new faces. different time. maybe....just maybe..... orders and policy are made by a few arsehole's in power for other reasons, using ideology as their excuse and justification. it wouldn't be that much of a stretch. but what i think your saying is that we should weed out the bad ones and "deal with them"? let's pretend like your in charge now. how would you determine who is bad or good? again, what would you do to the bad ones if you had the "power" to change and control what you fear? |
Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 09:25 |
1. Decrease our dependence on foreign oil so we are free to work to push repressive regimes to moderate and stop treating faux friends like the Saudis as true friends, which they are not, and pressure them to move to more humane treatment of women and non-believers. 2. Continue to work for a settlement to the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. While it will not really change much in the eyes of the terrorists it perhaps will decrease support of them by the so-called moderates. 3. Spend more of our military budget on intelligence so that we have a better chance of disrupting terrorist activities. We also need to work to secure more international funding for Interpol, which would like to play a larger role and is capable of it but simply does not have the money. 4. Encourage Muslim groups to denounce terrorism, the treatment of women as second class citizens, and intolerance of non-believers. 5. Enlist NATO to apply pressure to Iran and Syria to stop supplying terrorist groups. I do know if this can happen however because several of the key NATO countries are deathly afraid of their large Muslim populations. 6. Enlist and empower people like Richard Clarke who have proven their understanding of this and unlike the Bush administration, actually LISTEN to them. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 18:12 |
I disagree. A civilization that condones honor killing, clitoridectomy, killing as a permissible punishment to those who violate their sensibilities of offending their religion, etc. is NOT "precious." |
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It is backward, medieval, inhumane, sexist, racist, reprehensible, and we should not be afraid to stand up and say so. |
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The idea that all civilizations are morally equal, just different, is pernicious and IMHO the biggest danger to the world. |
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There are no such opportunities permitted in the "precious" civilizations of the Middle East. |
Jay Kadis wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 11:17 |
Those ideas only nibble around the edges of the problem. Poverty is the real underlying root of nearly all of the discord. When there's a more equal distribution of global wealth there will be far less trouble with radicalism. Once everyone has a reasonable standard of living you will see the other issues fade. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 14:52 |
I totally agree with John McCain in his unequivocal condemnation of torture. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 09:12 |
It is backward, medieval, inhumane, sexist, racist, reprehensible, and we should not be afraid to stand up and say so. |
mgod wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 20:19 | ||
Not so long ago the Christian west was exactly that, burning heretics and "witches", driving Jews from their homes, etc. All the while Islam was giving us modern mathematics and architecture. Really, the Christian West is still at it, as you demonstrate - continuing to demonize the other, in this case Islam, which gives rise to terrorism against "us" and massive invasion resulting in outright theft of property and life against "them." The idea that Muslim terrorism is sui generis, its own evil thing with nothing giving rise to it, is I think the single most evil thought that is perpetrated in the West - we are absolved of all blame because their tactics are not addressable by the conventional warfare which "we" excel at. If only those evil doers would play the game! So, then the logical conclusion of everything Mr. Asher has said is that if we face an invading force of Muslims from around the world, we could not have a legitimate complaint against Islam itself. Mr. Asher - you're in a fit about tactics, and you're using your ancient and highly propagandistic ideas about the enemy you select to justify traditional barbaric thinking. Yes, this is a war and we started it. And we use religion to justify and excuse ourselves. That's what this discussion is really about. Mr. Asher is simply either distracted by, or trying to distract us by complaining about a way of life he doesn't know but of which he disapproves. I'll go Richard Clarke one better: leave them alone, pay market prices for their oil, and I bet we go a looooooong way to peace. DS |
Andy Peters wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 19:57 | ||
Exactly. And as long as there is poverty and the world is divided into the haves and the have-nots, there will be people who will tell the have-nots that some group is to blame for all of their ills. When your "target demographic" is poor and uneducated, they're easier to manipulate. Of course, on the side of the "haves" there is always the active effort to maintain the status quo. Interestingly, some of the same techniques used by those who incite the rabble (if you will) are used by those who incite the upper class: fear of those "others" who would take the have's (typically God-given) property, which is not much different from the fear of those "others" would would prevent the have-nots from obtaining their (typically God-given) property. it all gives me a headache. -a |
Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 22:09 |
3. I find it interesting how you avoid even discussing the sexism of the culture. You bet I disapprove of it and you should too. Even at its worst Christianity never tolerated honor killing, clitoridectomy, etc. But who cares, after all, you are not a woman, right? And after all, it is just another value system, no more or less moral, right? |
i dig music wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 23:05 |
asher, i feel your solutions on how to address the issues are in direct conflict with your argument and position. it's almost like your playing both sides of the fence. this tells me there is something else bothering you. what is it? |
malice wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 14:22 |
I think I'm done with the subject, really. |
studiojimi wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 16:58 | ||
promise? |
i dig music wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 23:46 | ||||
i think you guys should kiss and make up. like i said earlier, it only takes one ass-hole to ruin a party, and neither of you were remotely close to being the one. you guys use to be friends.... but were effected by the same brand of shit politics, {different place} we are talking about here. say hello...how are you. it's not that hard. |
i dig music wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 22:05 |
asher, i feel your solutions on how to address the issues are in direct conflict with your argument and position. it's almost like your playing both sides of the fence. this tells me there is something else bothering you. what is it? |
maxim wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 00:20 |
" I find it interesting how you avoid even discussing the sexism of the culture." koran is less sexist than the bible. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 18:11 | ||||||
Hey, I am not angry with anyone here. We are having an exchange of ideas and we disagree. |
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 00:27 | ||
That may be, but the practitioners are not. Tell me honestly, do you know a Christian that believes it is OK to kill his daughter if she dishonors him? |
Jon Hodgson wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 01:41 | ||||
Well Hassan Habash apparantly for a start... http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1512394,00.htm l In 2003 the police suspected they had 12 honour killings in the UK, which were not just amongst muslims, but also Sikhs and Christians. Until 1991 it was legal in Brazil to kill your wife if you found her in an act of adultry, similarly in Colombia until 1980, and still the case in Haiti... none of these are muslim countries. Yes, the majority of honour killings do seem to be in muslim families, but not all by any means. It seems to be cultural, not religious. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 13:09 |
Your idea of going Clarke one better is is essentially how Neville Chamberlain proposed dealing with Hitler and we all saw how well that worked. |
mgod wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 15:48 | ||
"So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe they will be a small people - a silly people." This is a quote from "Lawrence of Arabia". Its still how the west views the world of Islam - with total disrespect. There is no Muslim terrorist threat that is or can be divorced from the military threat they face from the west, specifically the US. We depose their heads of state and wonder why they fight back. Who gives them the right to try to control their own destiny? You use a few religious cranks, no more than we have here and who justify terrorism here at home in the name of Jesus, to vilify whole populations' resistance to Western manipulation. Good boy, good lap dog for the Neocons! DS |
mgod wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 17:54 |
You keep changing the subject. There are substantial numbers of every kind of person who think it OK to kill others - not just Mooslims. Witness our American 2003 slaughter from the air of an innocent populace who had nothing to do with attacking us in 2001. You seem to think that's OK - even though far greater numbers of "those types" were killed than "our types." This is simply terrorism, with a nationalist justification behind it. I understand you don't support this war - how then to support the excuse, which continue to be justified by demonizing Islam? It might well be that if Israel was not there, but more importantly if we had no bases there, we would have no conflict with that part of the world. Currently, and for a large part of the last century, we've been literally or practically an invading and occupying force. If we were gone then they're killing each other would be their own business, and you likely wouldn't have any more opinion to express about it than you do about Africans slaughtering Africans for ancient tribal reasons: i.e. 0. DS |
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 16:10 | ||
First of all, we have not been discussing Africa so you have no idea what my views are or are not. Bill Clinton says his biggest regret was not intervening there and I agree with him. It is shameful. You view on the Iraq War is IMHO as extreme and distorted as Bush's on the other side. Turn 180 degrees from wrong and you end up at wrong. I mourn the loss of any innocent, American or Muslim, but there is a huge moral difference between accidentally killing one while attacking an enemy and targeting them, a distinction you clearly do not make. To call it terrorism is absurd. To call it a huge mistake is far more reasonable. And much as we all hate it, the world runs on oil and we have a geo-political and economic need to have a presence in the region and it is not wrong for a country to protect those interests. But you have the right to your point of view so vote for Kucinich, or Ron Paul, or whoever else represents your views. I will be voting for either Hillary or Obama in all probability, neither of whom go as far left as you do, and I say to you respectfully that I will be thanking whatever gods there be that more Americans think like me than you. And now, I really am done. |
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:10 | ||
It was indeed meant as a call out but not a hostile one. I am just trying to shake the folks who believe that "all cultures are morally equal, it is just a matter of your perception and you simply need to get together to talk out your differences" crowd out of their dream world and recognize what it is we are dealing with. I guess what bothers me overall these days is the refusal of liberals ( I am a Centrist) to simply acknowledge that fact that unlike any other religion at this point in history Islam has a large number of adherents that believe death is an acceptable punishment for any perceived disrespect for their religion and are unwilling to condemn that. Do I believe that ALL muslims or even MOST believe this? Of course not. Do I believe that out of the app. 1 billion Muslims on the planet perhaps millions and certainly at least hundreds of thousands do? You bet I do and every kind of polling that is done supports that. We cannot deal with the cultural differences if we do not acknowledge they exist and be willing to simply say that it is wrong to advocate putting a person to death for this kind of offense. |
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10 |
First of all, we have not been discussing Africa so you have no idea what my views are or are not. Bill Clinton says his biggest regret was not intervening there and I agree with him. It is shameful. |
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10 |
You view on the Iraq War is IMHO as extreme and distorted as Bush's on the other side. Turn 180 degrees from wrong and you end up at wrong. |
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10 |
I mourn the loss of any innocent, American or Muslim, but there is a huge moral difference between accidentally killing one while attacking an enemy and targeting them, a distinction you clearly do not make. To call it terrorism is absurd. To call it a huge mistake is far more reasonable. |
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10 |
And much as we all hate it, the world runs on oil and we have a geo-political and economic need to have a presence in the region and it is not wrong for a country to protect those interests. |
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10 |
But you have the right to your point of view so vote for Kucinich, or Ron Paul, or whoever else represents your views. I will be voting for either Hillary or Obama in all probability, neither of whom go as far left as you do, and I say to you respectfully that I will be thanking whatever gods there be that more Americans think like me than you. |
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10 |
And now, I really am done. |
mgod wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 12:19 |
Not so long ago the Christian west was exactly that, burning heretics and "witches", driving Jews from their homes, etc. All the while Islam was giving us modern mathematics and architecture. |
Hank Alrich wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 06:34 | ||
Just the other day I was trying to calc available disc space for a tracking session, using Roman Numerals. I found this difficult enough that if I had a religion I'd have thought of changing it. |
kraster wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 06:19 |
It's not fucking religion IT'S PEOPLE that do these things. It's the same old same old. Asher, do you sincerely think that if religion were eliminated from the face of the earth that the killing would stop? I would truly advise you to think again if you believe that to be true. It would serve people well to look beyond it and see that the old timeless problems are at the bottom of this. Poverty, injustice, inherited mistrust, intolerance and greed. All our unfortunate human traits. |
malice wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 04:47 |
I can't be more peacefull than that, I'm at the max now peace to all, even asher and Jimi malice |
studiojimi wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 19:24 | ||
we'll be the judge of that! |
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why single asher and myself away from the group of the rest of this bundle of God's kids? |
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was it a peaceful thought that made you distinguish where you choose to spew your love? |
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love is all inclusive and to separate two of God's kids from the pack.... well.... is....conflictive. and what peace is in that? |
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i'm not sure i believer you. |
Ashermusic wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 20:33 |
Ashermusic wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 10:13 |
2. While there were some good reasons for going into Iraq they were not the ones that the Bush administration used as justification and the war has been ineptly prosecuted and as a result there have been needless deaths. Nonetheless it is not morally equivalent to the targeting of innocents, including fellow Muslims, by Al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah. |
Ashermusic wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 10:13 |
Finally, I am not angry with anyone here nor was I personally offended by anything anyone wrote and if I offended anyone I am sorry. I come from a Jewish-American background where these kind of discussions/disagreements are common practice among those who love and respect each other. |
Ashermusic wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 10:13 |
And DS, I would be happy to meet you for lunch. |
mgod wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 21:54 |
[ I suggest Amir's Falafel, Colfax and Ventura, a bunch of crazy Israelis who make the best falafel and potato salad in town. DS |
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On the other hand I am still awaiting the day when I see a protest by Muslims in great numbers anywhere in the Middle East condemning an attack against innocents by Al Qaeda,etc. while when an Israeli attack occurs there will be a lot of protesters in Israel and around the word as there is when the U.S. attacks. The proof of one';s moral integrity is the willingness to criticize "your own." It is abundant in Western civilization but almost non-existent in non-Western civilization. Does no one else here think that is kind of an important point? |
mgod wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 13:54 |
I suggest Amir's Falafel, Colfax and Ventura, a bunch of crazy Israelis who make the best falafel and potato salad in town. DS |
Daniel Farris wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 22:59 |
They may disagree with Islamic Extremists, but they aren't going to demonstrate publicly about it. That just isn't done in their culture. DF |