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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Brad Blackwood => Topic started by: REX1 on October 22, 2008, 08:28:57 AM

Title: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: REX1 on October 22, 2008, 08:28:57 AM

Hello professionals

I have several albums, recorded digitally, that sound far better (I actually enjoy listening to them!)on vinyl than on cd. I recently met a recording engineer, Tony Faulkner, who recorded the Othello opera for EMI on 16 bit 44k. The vinyl version sounds great, the cd sounds crap, Tony couldn't explain why, can anybody out there?

Thanks guys!

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: tom eaton on October 22, 2008, 08:48:24 AM

Given that it's impossible for a vinyl playback to ADD original (related to the source) information to a digital recording, I would say that you are making production decisions along the way that aren't providing you with the sound you want when your product is delivered digitally.  

Know what I mean?

tom

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: Dave Davis on October 22, 2008, 09:43:27 AM

I'm with Tom: too many uncontrolled variables to know.

I would reject the assertion that any particular program sounds inherently better on vinyl.  Well mastered vinyl sounds very nice, but often require a bunch of work to get there (just the riaa curve is a lot of eq).  Well mixed digital recordings often sound good with no work at all... press play (I find originals frequently sound better than recent reissues or modern releases mastered to contemporary levels).  In the best-case scenarios, both can sound great, and in the worst case, both can be awful.  I'd argue strongly that:

- vinyl requires great mastering and competent manufacturing to sound good
- high res digital formats can sound literally as good as the mix right off the drive
- both manufacturing and mastering for digital release are more objective tasks than those steps are for vinyl (granting there are still plenty of subjective decisions to made in digital; speaking relatively here).

20 years ago I'd have been inclined to accept the underlying assumption of the thread.  Not only were converters and dsp weaker, there were many talented, experienced ME's still cutting lacquers on a daily basis.  Today it's a specialist task, not available in many (most?) mastering studios.  The spread in talent (good/bad engineers) is as great as ever, but in vinyl you really, truly get what you pay for.  The built-in costs are great enough to discourage the sorts of revision cycles that are common with CD mastering.  So good-enough is a defacto standard for many indie bands, which lowers the quality of much of what's on the shelf, and skews the average quality slightly downward.

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: REX1 on October 22, 2008, 11:33:47 AM

Thanks for the feedback guys, you obviously feel cd sound is acceptable, I dont. I'm trying to find a way of improving cd sound. If an original 16bit 44k recording can sound great on vinyl, then it's not the digital recording thats at fault. So why does the vinyl sound so much better than the cd? What could be making the difference?

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: tom eaton on October 22, 2008, 11:43:51 AM

Can you see that the vinyl playback is really just a complex transfer function?  The source is not the issue, meaning that the digital recording in and of itself is not the problem.  Your delivery to the digital medium is the issue.  You have to mix to the medium... if you want what vinyl playback DOES to be part of your digital delivery, you have to incorporate that sound into your master.

Or your a/d converters are terrible.  That's another option.

tom

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: TotalSonic on October 22, 2008, 11:47:32 AM

I'll conjecture the following:

for some inane reason the human brain always equates "more" with being "better" - but as someone who in the past cut many 16bit/44.1kHz sources onto DMM master I found that the vinyl often sounds better than the digital version simply because it has LESS of some things.

i.e. - you simply can not cut onto a vinyl master high levels of frequencies above say around 15kHz without risking distortion on playback or even damage to the cutter head - so instead with the careful application of LPF's, high frequency limiters, de-essers to avoid this problem - sometimes countered with a small boost in the upper mids to offset the resulting high end cut - what happens is that often you get a "warmer" more focused high end spectum on the vinyl master in comparison to the original source.

Next - you simply can not cut onto a longer length sides large constant amounts of low end frequencies (as these cause wide excursions that take up the available cutting space - aka "land") - or cut even an instance of extremely low frequencies at very high cutting levels without risking mistracking during playback - so often an HPF or low shelf cut is applied to deal with this problem - sometimes countered with a small boost at the next octave in the low end - so what you often end up with is a more focused low end with less nonmusical rumble but more "thump" in the vinyl master in comparison to the original source - again a case where less becomes more!

And - you simply can not cut uncorrelated low end frequencies at high cutting levels without risking mistracking due to grooves getting thinner or even potentially disappearing at these points. To deal with this often an Elliptical Equalizer (which sums to mono frequencies below a crossover point) or a Vertical Amplitude Limiter (which limits the level of the Side channel) would be applied - sometimes giving a more centered and focused low end image to the vinyl master in comparison to the original source.

Another thing to consider as a possibility is that for your particular playback system the phono pre-amp you have might have a more flattering frequency response or coloration for a particular release than your CD transports' DAC does.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: compasspnt on October 22, 2008, 12:27:52 PM

I'm basically with Steve, above.


Plus, there are going to be obvious differences between your playbacks.

You have some certain D > A converter in your CD player, and none in your vinyl player, for instance.

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: Dave Davis on October 22, 2008, 01:28:56 PM

Rex,

Well, again, I reject your premise that vinyl sounds better than CD for some rational or technical reason.  Some vinyl sounds better than the CD version, and that difference in "some" is possibly much greater in contemporary releases than older content, simply because the tools have changed, and tastes have changed for the worse with new digital formats like mp3.  The differences between these media, to the extent that you can compare apples/apples, are more a product of fashion and technique than the performance of the medium.  Vinyl is simply not inherently "better" sounding than a digital medium.

Having said that, I'll note a leap you make from my point to your assertion.  There are digital formats other than CD, that can and do sound much better.  They also deliver content that simply cannot exist on vinyl (e.g. 5.1 mixes, continuous programs longer than 20 minutes etc).  While I've heard many CDs I prefer to the vinyl (e.g. Sony's excellent reissue of Coltrane's "Love Supreme", or the mid 90s Rhino reissue of Gang of Fours "entertainment") , I readily concede this is not the case on many records today.  I'll go farther and join you in rejecting many early CD releases (1982-90).  But the issue isn't primarily related to differences in the media (though that plays a role).  It's far more related to fashion and technique.

As a couple folks have noted, there are differences in processing that affect the sound.  When I was at QCA, I often used our old-school vinyl mastering chain to print those effects to a master.  Elliptical EQ, and a fancy-schmantzy HF limiter were always there to drop in the signal path, and I'm not ashamed to confess to using them just as you describe; they gave me a shortcut to a classic sound that my newfangled digital stuff couldn't deliver.  Fortunately, technology has caught up with us, and most of these tricks can be (and are!) done digitally with little fuss.  I've built a couple ellipticals in SonicBirth, and hacked one together in +DSP with MH gear.  That's a big part of what you're hearing.

So to address your question, lets back up.  If one were to deliver a CD with the same processing as vinyl, minus the RIAA curve, it will sound pretty much the same as the vinyl with decent converters.  Only it will lack wow and flutter, surface noise, and non-linearities in de-emphasis and playback related to electronics and cartridges.  If those non-linearities, noise, and constant tiny variations in pitch are your bag, and how you define "better", well, you've got me there, and chalk it up to radically different sematics and call it a day (with the understanding that even those artifacts are attainable in the digital domain).

-d-

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on October 22, 2008, 02:17:48 PM

delete

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: Gold on October 22, 2008, 05:11:47 PM

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/23895/0//1 084/

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: Andrew Hamilton on October 22, 2008, 06:48:02 PM

Dave, you didn't yet mention what Doug Sax said about vinyl....   That what it has working for it is that it preconditions the signal to be analogous to the mechanical hysteresis of the loudspeaker.   Digital can do HF de-celeration and eliptical eq all day, but there's something magical about the reluctance of laquer and how it normalizes the slew rate of all frequencies in a way that couples nicely with air-wigglers (i.e., drivers).   The analog output of an otherwise digital recording is riddled with all sorts of upstart transients.   Somehow, compression and limiting, alone, do not make the familiar - easy to "suffer through" - oscillations of the needle swinging frenetically (or not) in a big ol' wavy groove.


One label that has hit a few home runs, if you ask me, is Harvest Records.  They issued a couple of my all-time favorite lps - Fripp and Eno / Evensong   and also The Fourth Way / Werewolf (Live at Montreaux Jazz Festival-1970) *****    

Also, I noticed on my copy of O'Brian's "You and I,"  which is electro-funk from the early '80s, on Capitol Records, that Wally (Herschberg?)  signed the dead space.    Anyone know if he's still cutting (or kicking)?



Andrew

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: compasspnt on October 22, 2008, 07:11:51 PM

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/147939/6490/#ms g_147939

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: Eliott James on October 23, 2008, 12:21:41 AM

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 11:47

I'll conjecture the following: for some inane reason the human brain always equates "more" with being "better" - but as someone who in the past cut many 16bit/44.1kHz sources onto DMM master I found that the vinyl often sounds better than the digital version simply because it has LESS of some things. i.e. - you simply can not cut onto a vinyl master high levels of frequencies above say around 15kHz without risking distortion on playback or even damage to the cutter head - so instead with the careful application of LPF's, high frequency limiters, de-essers to avoid this problem - sometimes countered with a small boost in the upper mids to offset the resulting high end cut - what happens is that often you get a "warmer" more focused high end spectum on the vinyl master in comparison to the original source. Next - you simply can not cut onto a longer length sides large constant amounts of low end frequencies (as these cause wide excursions that take up the available cutting space - aka "land") - or cut even an instance of extremely low frequencies at very high cutting levels without risking mistracking during playback - so often an HPF or low shelf cut is applied to deal with this problem - sometimes countered with a small boost at the next octave in the low end - so what you often end up with is a more focused low end with less nonmusical rumble but more "thump" in the vinyl master in comparison to the original source - again a case where less becomes more! And - you simply can not cut uncorrelated low end frequencies at high cutting levels without risking mistracking due to grooves getting thinner or even potentially disappearing at these points. To deal with this often an Elliptical Equalizer (which sums to mono frequencies below a crossover point) or a Vertical Amplitude Limiter (which limits the level of the Side channel) would be applied - sometimes giving a more centered and focused low end image to the vinyl master in comparison to the original source. Another thing to consider as a possibility is that for your particular playback system the phono pre-amp you have might have a more flattering frequency response or coloration for a particular release than your CD transports' DAC does. Best regards, Steve Berson

Hmmm. is there a plug-in (AU) that will handle these duties with simple presets? (I'm a simple man....)

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: REX1 on October 23, 2008, 10:11:28 AM

THANK YOU TOTAL SONIC!

I think you've answered my question. The difference in sound between cd and vinyl versions of the same digital recording appears to be down to the EQ applied before the vinyl cutting process. I will experiment with similar EQ prior to burning recordings to cd to see if I can get the superior sound I want.

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: brett on October 24, 2008, 03:20:52 AM

I have plenty of 12" records that don't sound as good as the CD master. and fewer the other way around. Sounds like the mastering engineer on the vinyl made better choices. My choice has nothing to do with loudenss either. vinyl has more limitations, width, and freq. The high end is usually subdued to protect the head and has roll off to it. Can sound silkier than the CD which often has no freq specific limiting and is more open. The bottom on vinyl is also summed, and on CD is stereo. this allows phase issue to translate to the speakers giving some size. The bottom can get lost on vinyl if not checked in mono while mixing. I think most vinyl cuts that didn't work for me suffered from this the most.

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: Glenn Bucci on October 24, 2008, 04:58:43 PM

1. What are the quality of the converters of your CD player? This will make a difference right off the bat.
2. If your playback is on the same audio system, what is the quality of your turntable? I have a Dual CS 5000 turntable with a grado cartidge. There is a difference in the sound between my vinyl records of the same music with the CD, but I think Total Sonic answered some of those reasons.

I hope that someday 24 bit DVD audio will be a popular as 24 bit DVD video. It's kills me to reduce the quality of the music just so you can play it on a CD.

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: TotalSonic on October 24, 2008, 05:52:33 PM

Glenn Bucci wrote on Fri, 24 October 2008 16:58

1. What are the quality of the converters of your CD player? This will make a difference right off the bat.

It will make a big one.  Usually a high quality phono signal path will sound better than a crap DAC!

Quote:

2. If your playback is on the same audio system, what is the quality of your turntable? I have a Dual CS 5000 turntable with a grado cartidge. There is a difference in the sound between my vinyl records of the same music with the CD, but I think Total Sonic answered some of those reasons.

I should note that even if the vinyl was cut with no additional processing (i.e. a true "flat transfer") then there will be differences just because of the technology of analog playback which in some cases might lead to a subjective preference for it even though it is less accurate presentation of the original source (i.e. presence of rumble, wow, flutter, additional cross talk, tracing distortion, etc.).

Quote:

I hope that someday 24 bit DVD audio will be a popular as 24 bit DVD video.

Unfortunately those hopes are completely unfounded as far as I can tell.  The window of opportunity for a high res audio only optical disc format to be a success with consumers was essentially completely over a couple of years ago.  At this point it's a very small niche item that has less market success than even vinyl records, and has showed no significant market growth the last few years.  

I'd say instead efforts by those wishing to distribute music in high res form should be redirected towards coming up with online stores aimed at the audiophile offering 24bit files data compressed in lossless codecs such as ALAC, FLAC or Monkeys Audio.

Quote:

It's kills me to reduce the quality of the music just so you can play it on a CD.

To me if it's done well the true importance of the recording - the ability to communicate an emotion to the listener - does not get lost simply by going from analog and/or 24bit/sample rate of your choice down to 16bit/44.1kHz.

There are indeed even hundreds of CD's which consider leave nothing to desire sonically.  Of course I still have held onto (and expand occasionally) my vinyl record collection!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Title: Re: Why do digital recordings sound better on vinyl?
Post by: cass anawaty on October 24, 2008, 07:20:29 PM

Glenn Bucci wrote on Fri, 24 October 2008 21:58

1.  It's kills me to reduce the quality of the music just so you can play it on a CD.

I just don't think this is the case, especially when you're talking bit depth reduction reducing quality.  What do you think is happening?