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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Brad Blackwood => Topic started by: Robert Bartko on April 28, 2005, 10:42:04 PM

Title: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Robert Bartko on April 28, 2005, 10:42:04 PM

I have just finished mixing (3) songs. All three sound great when played on my studio monitors (Event 20/20's). The mixes also sound great to me when played on my boombox, walkman headphones, NS-10m's, etc...

BUT, when I play the mixes on the car stereos of the two different cars I own, they sound extremely bassy. I would just pass this off as my car stereo being too bassy in itself, BUT when I play other artists commercial CDs, their mixes sound fine. Their bass has a lot of clean presence, mine is too bassy!

I have gone back and remixed the bottom end of these (3) songs several times. I have used high-pass filters on the bass guitar and kick drum. I have also used them on anything else that has unwanted bassiness. I have done so much cutting of the low end, that the mixes are starting to sound as if they are lacking in bottom when played on my studio monitors... BUT in the car they are still bassy.

Any suggestions or hints would be very much appreciated! Thanks for your time and thoughts! Robert Bartko

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: lucey on April 29, 2005, 01:53:30 AM

You need better speakers to monitor the low mids and low end while mixing.

NS-10s are a skill to mix on ... you're making them sound "good", which means too much bass. WAY too much

20/20s are no better.


Put those same commercial CDs from the car A/B on in the studio and hear how thin the low end is, and how much midrange there is.  Match that.

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: TotalSonic on April 29, 2005, 09:19:55 AM

In your setup none of the monitor choices you listed are really giving you an idea of what is happening below 60Hz - which is why your mix isn't translating at the bottom end.

"back in the day" being able to check bass response of the mix was kind of the reason for having mains (besides having something to impress clients with a playback through them at the end of the session).  It's interesting that this seems to be the one area where the project studio owner hasn't been marketed to yet.  Maybe luckily - the idea of Chinese built Behringer Mains doesn't sound that appealing actually.

Anyway - probably the best solution is to integrate a subwoofer into your setup so that you have at least an inkling of what is going on in the bottom octave when your mixing.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Fibes on April 29, 2005, 09:25:15 AM

Cars usually have a bit more bass tilt than regular systems, that said they also have a buildup around 100-115 that can sometimes get weird too.

Chances are you aren't hearing the lows/low mids anywhere else. Bass is a tricky thing, yep.

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Trillium Sound on April 29, 2005, 09:50:30 AM

Definitely your monitors and the monitoring chain. I'd listen to commercial CD in your studio from the same path your are listening to your mixes.

Regards

Richard

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: bluecouchstudios on April 29, 2005, 10:48:12 AM

i assume you're sending the mixes off for mastering.  let the ME worry about bass levels.  i think the best you can do it make them sound good on the system you have, though it's good that your referencing on other systems.

--
lance

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Bob Olhsson on April 29, 2005, 11:12:58 AM

bluecouchstudios wrote on Fri, 29 April 2005 09:48

...let the ME worry about bass levels.

NOT a very good idea!

If the relationship between low frequency instruments is screwed up, it can't be saved by overall eq. A mastering engineer can correct for differences between speakers to a certain degree but it'll never have the translation and immunity to broadcast processing that a properly structured mix will. A good mix is one that a consumer's bass and treble controls can make just about perfect.

If your monitors haven't got any low-end, at the very least get some headphones that will tell you what's going on down there.

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on May 01, 2005, 01:29:04 PM

I agree that adding a subwoofer is a good idea. My friend has his on a foot switch so he can mix in a regular way on the NS-10M's and bring in that sub occasionally to check whats happening. It helps to get up and walk around the room with the sub playing and hear what builds up as you move around.

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: bblackwood on May 01, 2005, 08:40:58 PM

Bob Olhsson wrote on Fri, 29 April 2005 10:12

bluecouchstudios wrote on Fri, 29 April 2005 09:48 ...let the ME worry about bass levels. NOT a very good idea!

Agreed.

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Ed Littman on May 01, 2005, 08:57:07 PM

Robert Bartko wrote on Thu, 28 April 2005 22:42

Any suggestions or hints would be very much appreciated! Thanks for your time and thoughts! Robert Bartko

Untill you take all the other advice.... try some trial & error & make sure it sounds good in your car. than play it against cd's you know on the boom box & walkman.
From my experience walkmans don't like to much low mids. If you turn the volume up & distorts to soon it's a good sign that it won't translate well on other systems.
Ed

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: electrical on May 02, 2005, 01:37:47 AM

Robert Bartko wrote on Thu, 28 April 2005 22:42

I have just finished mixing (3) songs. All three sound great when played on my studio monitors (Event 20/20's). The mixes also sound great to me when played on my boombox, walkman headphones, NS-10m's, etc... BUT, when I play the mixes on the car stereos of the two different cars I own, they sound extremely bassy. I would just pass this off as my car stereo being too bassy in itself, BUT when I play other artists commercial CDs, their mixes sound fine. Their bass has a lot of clean presence, mine is too bassy!

Stop listening to them in your car.

Seriously, trying to out-think the end listening enviornment is crazy. You should try to make things sound good while you're working on them, and that should be your only concern. Trying to make them sound "bad in the right way" is a sure way to drive yourself nuts, and you're more likely to screw things up in the attempt. Continuously second-guessing yourself (and worse, second-guessing a guess at what you think something "should" sound like, rather than what you like already) only instills doubt and fear into a process you must become comfortable with, and "what if?" thinking has second-guessing built into it.

If it sounds good in a controlled listening environment, the good part is more important than whatever "compensatory badness" you might add in an attempt to please your damn car.

What about all those people out there who will be listening to it on their Hi-Fi systems rather than in your car -- don't they count?

All talk of manipulating the sound in the studio so it "sounds good in a car" or "sounds good on radio" is nonsense, because there is no standard for those situations.

You know for certain what you're hearing in the studio, and you must learn to trust what you're actually hearing, rather than imagining hearing something else and then trying to make adjustments based on that. That's a roadmap to insanity.

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Ed Littman on May 02, 2005, 07:52:29 AM

In my old not so steller room i had to use trial & error(lots of 703) until i learned how the room/monitors translated. Not a method but a means to an end.
Ed

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Fibes on May 02, 2005, 08:19:37 AM

Quote:

Stop listening to them in your car.

Once again an absolute taken out of context which in some ways is spot on and at the same time forgets the surrounding connections.

Listening in the car for me helps for a number of reasons, most of which are not related to mastering but...

1. The car helps to shut off the left brain listening mode, once your left brain takes over the driving, the right brain explores the music. So i'm not getting mix help from listening in the car as much as "big picture" help.

2. Sequencing and the proper ebb and flow is something that reveals itself when driving moreso than in a controled environment. Cross fades and the like can also benefit from a little background noise. Even the HIFI gys have refridgerators and HVAC in their house.

3. I know what my car does to music and never "mix for the car" but having that extra window can't hurt if you don't let it rule over the production environment.

4. Keep in mind that production and reproduction are worlds that shouldn't meet. ---What Steve said

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: PP on May 02, 2005, 10:46:22 AM

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: TotalSonic on May 02, 2005, 11:21:31 AM

I'm going to have disagree with Mr. Albini here in that it seems that the poster has stated that the problem is a lack of translation of mixes onto what is essentially one of his "references".  To me what makes any monitor a "reference" isn't necessarily their particular accuracy but more the listeners complete and total familiarity with the sound of lots and lots of differenent sources on them.  If say, 98% of commercial releases are having their low end translate onto his car speakers well but his own mixes are sounding way too bassy when taken out of the studio then it is indeed pointing to a problem of lack of bottom octave in his studio's monitor chain.   It's possible his room is also contributing to a thin bass sound for his 20/20's also.  I'd say the best thing for him to do is run a series of tones sweeping from 30Hz to 200Hz to see where the bumps and holes in his setup are now.  But I agree with Steve that it's somewhat futile to try and second guess mix translation radio broadcast and that one should just mix for things to sound good through your monitors - although I feel strongly that it is best not to clip wav forms if one can avoid client demands for it for the sake of better translation when the track is run through broadcast processors such as Optimods.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Trillium Sound on May 02, 2005, 11:23:46 AM

I agree with Steve there at 100%. Who cares if it sounds good in the studio if there is too much bass in the outside world ??

Richard

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: electrical on May 02, 2005, 12:04:31 PM

trilliumsound wrote on Mon, 02 May 2005 11:23

I agree with Steve there at 100%. Who cares if it sounds good in the studio if there is too much bass in the outside world ?? Richard

What we're talking about is something that (apparently) only sounds bad when played in a couple of particular cars. That is not the "outside world," that's a couple of cars.

Given a choice, I think it is wiser to listen to the speakers in a controlled environment and make decisions there, and just accept that there may be a car or two where it won't sound as good.

There will be plenty of proper listening environments where it will sound as good, and I think those are more important. Unless you intend to make car-only music for a particular car, in which case you should mix in the car.

I also think the shock of hearing something in a different environment can be disorienting and disquieting, and should not be given too much consideration. All those records that do sound good in the car, are you as familiar and as attached to their original masters as you are with these "problem" songs? No, you've probably never spent hours listening to and adjusting those original masters in a controlled environment and then immediately listened to them in your car in order to make them "sound bad" there.

Fuck the car. The car is a random element. The car probably has a tone control, so turn the bass down if you want to listen to it there, but don't let your car override the careful decisions you make in a controlled environment.

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Trillium Sound on May 02, 2005, 12:15:51 PM

Well, it does not seems that he has a controlled environment ! If all the cd sounds good in my $29.99 boom box and my mix sound too boomy, am I going to buy a $3,000 boom box to make my mix sound better ??

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: electrical on May 02, 2005, 01:32:16 PM

trilliumsound wrote on Mon, 02 May 2005 12:15

Well, it does not seems that he has a controlled environment ! If all the cd sounds good in my $29.99 boom box and my mix sound too boomy, am I going to buy a $3,000 boom box to make my mix sound better ??

Why do you care so much about this particular boom box? Do you think that specific boom box is what will be used by the rest of the world to listen to it?

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: Trillium Sound on May 02, 2005, 01:43:01 PM

Steve,

I know what you are saying and I do not care if it is boom box, car or whatever. I really think that if his mix is too boomy or have too much bass, there is too much of it, that's it. I know that  a car stereo is not accurate to get your final decision out of a mix but if everything sounds decent in your car except your mix then there is something wrong with your mix. Even if it sounds like a Billion Bucks in your studio Room, there is something wrong with the mix because of the monitoring is not translating what is really.

Regards,

Richard

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: electrical on May 02, 2005, 03:15:52 PM

trilliumsound wrote on Mon, 02 May 2005 13:43

Steve, I know what you are saying and I do not care if it is boom box, car or whatever. I really think that if his mix is too boomy or have too much bass, there is too much of it, that's it. I know that  a car stereo is not accurate to get your final decision out of a mix but if everything sounds decent in your car except your mix then there is something wrong with your mix. Even if it sounds like a Billion Bucks in your studio Room, there is something wrong with the mix because of the monitoring is not translating what is really.

And a car or a boombox is "translating" better than a monitoring system designed to do just that? A car, a boombox, any boombox is "better?"

Hooey.

If your car or boombox makes your mix sound too bassy, then it makes everything too bassy, it just doesn't bother you with other things because you're not attached to them in the same way.

Ignore the car. Ignore the boombox. They're chimerical "standards" that aren't likely to be duplicated anywhere else. Ignore them.

If you think it sounds good in your studio, then at least you know it sounds good. If you try to make it a little less good, in a way you hope will please your car or your boombox, then you're making the whole process more intellectual and less responsive to reality. Trust what you hear and decide is right.

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: PP on May 02, 2005, 04:33:11 PM

Title: Re: Final Mixes Too Bassy in car.. but sound fine other systems.. any advice?
Post by: JackJohnston on May 02, 2005, 05:53:57 PM

You might be adding a lot of extra bass to the mix to try to get the Event monitors to sound more balanced. They are on the bright side aren't they? I seem to recall hearing them and thinking that they were horribly thin.

Jack