R/E/P Community

R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Reason In Audio => Topic started by: Benmrx on July 04, 2005, 05:04:02 PM

Title: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Benmrx on July 04, 2005, 05:04:02 PM
First off, thanks to everyone who's helped me out on here.  I just discovered online forums a few months ago.....and have become addicted!

Well, someday soon (hopefully) our studio will be on the look-out for a decent console.  We're a smaller studio, and really geared towards the analog way of recording.  I have no interest in dropping the cash for a PTHD system.  

Our budget will probably be under $10,000.  

Automation is a tricky one......The Otari and Soundtracs seem to be about it in our price range...although I've seen a few Neoteks with VCA go for under $10K.  Basically a console without automation means I'll have to use Pro Tools, as I really like to "build a mix", but my dream is to keep it all analog.

Is the option of upgrading one of these types of boards with say.....an uptown system be out of the question?  I don't want to spend more money on the automation then the actual console.

My guess is that the Otari and Soundtracs would have the weakest sounding preamps, but that's not a big deal as there are more then enough options for outboard preamps.  I would be more interested in having some decent EQ's.  

Is the Otari Status or Soundtracs Solitaire a modular console?  Cause that would play a big part in making a decision.

I know Oram is not a popular name here, but I just saw a 32 ch. BEQ24 go on ebay for $5,000.  And at that price range.....maybe it's a good deal?  Would a BEQ be better then a Trident series 65/75 in terms of preamps, EQ's, maintaining?

I really don't know that much about Ameks...I've seen a few Einstiens and Langelys in this price range.

BTW, not interested in MCI or Soundcraft.

Sorry for the long post, any help/advice/past experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Also, we pretty much record bands.....drums, bass, guitars, keys, ect.  Mostly "indie rock".........mostly......If  you care to take a peak at the studio, there are some pictures at:

http://myspace.com/mysteriousredx





   

Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: RKrizman on July 05, 2005, 12:47:42 AM
I'd forget the Trident 65.  I get better mixes in the box.

-R
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Benmrx on July 05, 2005, 01:27:37 AM
good to know, that's the kind of feedback I'm looking for.  I really want to stop mixing in the box, and I want a console where the extra effort (recalls, automation, ect.) will be worth it.





Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Brian Roth on July 05, 2005, 03:05:10 AM
I can comment on the Otari "Concept 1" desk since I installed one new-from-the-crate approx. 12 years ago.

Exceptionally reliable.  The power supplies are a semi-weak point (what else is new???) but are easy to repair since they use industry-standard open frame linear modules mounted inside Otari-branded rack chassis boxes.

I've replaced one bad opamp and one bad coupling cap in different modules in the past 12 (?) years.

Nothing else has failed in a desk that was powered 24/7/365.  It IS fed from a UPS system since the computer-driven parts get really spacey with power "blinks", etc.

The Concept is NOT a "hard motherboard" design since it uses a lot of ribbon cables.  One downside has been audio crosstalk in the patchbay wire harness with semi-Hi-Z sources such as synths.

The mic preamps, and EQs, are at-best "pedestrian" quality.

Bri







Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Brian Roth on July 05, 2005, 03:06:22 AM
I can comment on the Otari "Concept 1" desk since I installed one new-from-the-crate approx. 12 years ago.

Exceptionally reliable.  The power supplies are a semi-weak point (what else is new???) but are easy to repair since they use industry-standard open frame linear modules mounted inside Otari-branded rack chassis boxes.

I've replaced one bad opamp and one bad coupling cap in different modules in the past 12 (?) years.

Nothing else has failed in a desk that was powered 24/7/365.  It IS fed from a UPS system since the computer-driven parts get really spacey with power "blinks", etc.

The Concept is NOT a "hard motherboard" design since it uses a lot of ribbon cables.  One downside has been audio crosstalk in the patchbay wire harness with semi-Hi-Z sources such as synths.

The mic preamps, and EQs, are at-best "pedestrian" quality.

Bri







Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 05, 2005, 04:37:02 AM
BTW, why not MCI?  There have been some amazing records made on MCIs.
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Benmrx on July 05, 2005, 10:42:14 AM
Brian - That's great news about the concept you installed.  Sounds very reliable.  You'll have to excuse my lack of knowledge here, but not sure what you mean by a "hard motherboard" design.  I only wonder what similarities the Concept and the Status have in common.  

Blair - correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression that most MCI desks (at least the older models I would be able to afford) and Harrison desks would require the most tech work and upkeep.  And I'm not that great a tech.  

We have an Otari MTR90 MKII 2" machine, and it works great.  It's a work horse.  I can calibrate it, and keep that end up.  But when (for instance) we needed to replace the left hand tension arm, we brought in a tech.  Which is fine.  It wouldn't be fine if we had to bring in a tech all the time just to keep sessions going, but once every so often to check the mechanical alignment and maybe replace a part here or there is too be expected.  That's the kind of relationship I would like to have with a console.  





Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: seriousfun on July 05, 2005, 02:51:40 PM
Benmrx wrote on Mon, 04 July 2005 14:04

...

Is the option of upgrading one of these types of boards with say.....an uptown system be out of the question?  I don't want to spend more money on the automation then the actual console.

...


Unfortunately, that will be the case (unless you find a used console with automation installed, or a used automation system pulled from a console). Flying Faders is the only currently available and supported automation system, and it always was premium priced.
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Benmrx on July 05, 2005, 07:18:40 PM
Doug - I figured that would be the case, but wasn't sure if there were some less expensive options.

It really seems that if you want a board with automation for under $10K, then the only choices are the Otari Status and the Soundtracs Solitaire.

I would love to hear from someone that has worked on both of these boards.  Off the bat, I would think the Otari would be a bit better in terms of build.  Not sure about the sound though.  

I know there were some old API guys involved in some of the Otari desks, but I would think that they sound/work nothing like an API.

Also....I know, I know....but what about the Oram BEQ?  Putting all politics aside, is it just total crap.....maybe a Mackie with a better routing scheme?  Would you go with a Soundcraft Ghost over an Oram board if they were priced the same.  

Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: natpub on July 05, 2005, 10:23:47 PM
Tactile Technologies (Tac Tech) boards are in that price range and have quality pre's., eq, etc., as well as full automation and flying faders.

They are no longer commercially manufactured, so you have to look around for them used. There are numerous folks in our various forum communities who swear by them.

As always with such a desk, be prepared for maintenance costs.
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: drumsound on July 05, 2005, 10:27:58 PM
First off the Neotek consoles (Elan and Elite) sound great and seem to be pretty trouble free,  The mute buttons are a little hinky, I need to replace a few of mine.  I have VCA auto that works well, but it is mutes and faders only, nothing like recall without making sheets by hand...

Second let's talk Oram.  I've heard various thinks as have you.  the biggest things that stick with me though are the John Klett story (search the rec-pit archives), and what I was told by a Sweetwater employee.  I asked a Sweetwater guy why they didn't carry Oram any longer.  He told me that every Oram piece they ever sold came back for warranty work.
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Benmrx on July 05, 2005, 11:32:47 PM
Tactile Technologies - haven't ever heard of them before.  Got something new to look up.  

Oram - no matter how hard I try, I can not get a single person to ever swain my interest towards purchasing one of their products.  Even a 32 ch., 24 buss BEQ console for $5,000!.  I guess if it's too good to be true.........

Neotek really seems to be the way to go for a good used console in the $10K range, unless you randomly run across a 24 ch. Calrec or something.  I'm curious as to why they don't go for more in the used market?  It would also be nice, cause I don't any other studio's around here have a Neotek.

Still would love a Soundtracs Solitaire vs. Otari Status comparison.  Is one more vanilla then the other?  better (which to me means more stable) automation?

I feel like I made a good choice going for an Otari deck, I want to make that same type of console purchase.....reliable workhorse, may not sound the best, but it'll do the job quite well.

Thanks for everyones input so far.  
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Rick Sutton on July 05, 2005, 11:50:53 PM
The Otari / API connection was when some API employees were combined with SoundWorkshop people to design Otari a "flagship" console about 15 years ago. The result was the Otari Series 54. I bought one new in 1991 with Discmix automation and the board has been extremely reliable. Have seen these come up occassionly for stupid low prices like 10k for a console with moving fader auto. Probably 120k when new. Like any console, maintenance history is critical. Mine runs like new but I know of one series 54 that was totally screwed up by a tech that reinstalled some jumpers backward and powered it up messing up the control room module and the solo logic. Take a good look and listen to any used console before laying your money down. If they won't get it in a situation where you can run it through its paces, beware.
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Benmrx on July 06, 2005, 12:12:35 AM
"If they won't get it in a situation where you can run it through its paces, beware"

Very good point.  I was wondering what people do when they win a bid on ebay for some large format console.  If it were me, and I was laying down 10K, I think a $200 plane ticket could be arranged to check it out in person.  

If it weren't set-up to run signal through, would a qualified tech be able to give a proper check up?  Enough to lay down the cash?  I wonder.

At the same time, when the time comes I'll wait till the right board comes along.  I just want to narrow it down to a couple specific models.  I completely understand that any board will need some maintenance from time to time, and most likely any board when it first arrives will need a couple things fixed.  For me, it's worth it.  I really enjoy the workflow of a real console....and analog for that matter.  

Rick - That story of a tech screwing up a series 54 is scary.  
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Brian Roth on July 06, 2005, 12:58:16 AM
Benmrx wrote on Tue, 05 July 2005 09:42

Brian - That's great news about the concept you installed.  Sounds very reliable.  You'll have to excuse my lack of knowledge here, but not sure what you mean by a "hard motherboard" design.  I only wonder what similarities the Concept and the Status have in common.  




I found a pic of a Status just now to see what it was.  It looks like a slightly smaller version (less sends or EQ perhaps?) of the Concept.  Cosmetics are very similar.

When I refer to a "hard motherboard", I mean where the modules plug into sockets down inside the frame.  The Concept uses ribbon cables instead.  On one hand, that does mean you don't need an extender module to service a module.  In this case, it's extender wire harnesses.

Bri


Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Benmrx on July 06, 2005, 01:44:09 AM
Brian - Thanks for the info.  Makes sense to me.  Is that a way to cut costs down?
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Brian Roth on July 06, 2005, 03:24:14 AM
Benmrx wrote on Wed, 06 July 2005 00:44

Brian - Thanks for the info.  Makes sense to me.  Is that a way to cut costs down?


It does simplify the mechanical design since the modules don't have to slide into VERY carefully-positioned motherboard connectors.

I'm somewhat "agnostic" on the subject.  Classic boards like Neves, etc used a "hard mother board", but as time progressed, so did the problems.  The sagging frame of a Neve 8068 comes to mind.

Bri


Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: George_ on July 06, 2005, 03:36:34 AM
sorry, but where do you buy (USED) consoles?

Location: europe
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: t(h)ik on July 06, 2005, 03:59:51 AM
http://www.adalt.de/schmitronic2/

http://www.proaudioeurope.com/

http://www.cmlstudio.de/

Ebay

http://www.desch-audio.com/

Lemme nough

Tik

Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: George_ on July 06, 2005, 05:43:00 AM
once again, thanx a lot tik:)

Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: Benmrx on July 06, 2005, 10:44:35 PM
TIK - nice links, thank you for sharing.

Brian - I thought that might be it.  I'm no tech, by any stretch of the imagination, but I would think that all around using ribbon cables would be a better way to integrate each channel.  Even if it means replacing a ribbon here and there.  It just seems very practical to me.

BTW, I thought this was funny:  I went and bought the nicest gold CD-R to burn the final mix for a client.  And my Mac PB Ti G4 on OS9 wouldn't even recognize the gold CD-R.  I went upstairs to a friend who just bought a new G5 Dual 2.7 with Tiger, and it worked just fine.  I guess my computer is OFFICIALLY out-dated.  
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: meverylame on July 06, 2005, 11:14:01 PM
The man to talk to about Soundtracs consoles in the US is Steve Magalnick, the only authorized Soundtracs tech left in America. Great guy. I own a Soundtracs Topaz, which by no means is in the same league as to what you're referring to. PM for his contact info.

Also one thing that I don't believe anyone else has noted is that Neotek is still producing consoles. So parts, service etc. are still available from the maker. So thats a major plus on the Neotek end.
Food for thought mobstahs...
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: drumsound on July 07, 2005, 03:46:48 PM
Benmrx,

A couple things based on your posts.

1) On checking the console out, hire a tech that is local to the console who you can trust.  My Neotek was in Denton Texas and I emailed Harvey Gerst and he gave me a number of a guy who was good.  I felt it worth the money he charged me to look at the console and for his travel to know the thing was worth buying.

2) Hard motherboards.  I had movers ruin a console in a local move because two motherboards got cracked internally.  Luckily the Neotek had ribbon cables and it was mover from Texas to Illinois with no problems.  Just something to think about if you're having something shipped.
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: tom eaton on July 12, 2005, 09:20:26 PM
Otari comments:

The Status18r is a pretty different board from the Concept and Concept Elite.  The Concepts have two 100mm fader paths and two eqs per module, the Elite has two four band eqs, mid bands parametric,  and 10 sends on 8 knobs, per module.  A 24 module Elite console (like the one I have) has 48 inputs, 48 4 band eqs, 24 hi- and lo-pass sweepable filters, and complete automation (either VCA, or VCA with moving faders).  The Concept does not have the parametric eqs that the Elite has. The Status has one 100mm fader and one 60mm fader, one eq and 8 aux sends per module.  All the consoles have "image recall" which allows nearly every knob on the control surface to be recalled manually to a stored value.   Works well...takes me less than 10 minutes to recall my board.  

Brian-

The modules do, in fact, have a finicky fit into a card (the Quad Channel Processor card) at the rear end of the module...the bulk of the audio is carried on the ribbons though.

I think the mic pres are actually pretty decent...the EQs are functional, no particular magic.

The strength of the Otaris is the recall...and the master section control of the console.  Two or three botton pushes in the master section can reconfigure the entire console, really nice.  You can also bypass the VCAs...viola, instant summing mixer with pans.  

These things run warm!

-tom
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: jaguarsg on August 29, 2007, 09:01:31 PM
are the channel strips swappable in the concepts and elites?

can i put an elite strip in a concept 1 and have it be functional or are there modifications that have to be done?
Title: Re: neotek elan, otari status, Soundtracs Solitaire, trident series 65/75, Amek.......Oram??
Post by: tom eaton on August 29, 2007, 11:02:24 PM
You can put an Elite module in a Concept 1 if you have the right software loaded in the computer.  You configure the software to recognize the particular modules and their locations in the frame.  There were stereo, aux, standard w/mic pre, and dual line input modules made, and any of those can be dropped in if you want to go reconfig the setup files in the computer.

I have an Otari page on my site:

http://www.thomaseaton.com/otari

It has a bunch of basic info.

t