Print Page - Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help

Are we not the only nation on earth who must suffer school shootings over and over while the 900 pound gorilla giggles in the corner unnoticed?

bab

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 11:14

Are we not the only nation on earth who must suffer school shootings over and over while the 900 pound gorilla giggles in the corner unnoticed?

bab

When marksmanship/riflery was taught in schools there were no school shootings of this ilk.

Your point was?

Fibes wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 09:07

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 11:14

Are we not the only nation on earth who must suffer school shootings over and over while the 900 pound gorilla giggles in the corner unnoticed?

bab

When marksmanship/riflery was taught in schools there were no school shootings of this ilk.

Your point was?

talk about sniping!

The immediate impetus might be to address guns, but mental health is the real root of the problem. School can be a very stressful environment when you don't fit in. This guy was clearly identified as having mental problems. More than gun control, we really need a functional mental health system.

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 10:14

Are we not the only nation on earth who must suffer school shootings over and over while the 900 pound gorilla giggles in the corner unnoticed?

bab

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

While we certainly have a majority of those schools here in the states, we are by no means the only nation who must suffer through such horror...

Not the only country... http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/school-shootings/

Tell us about this Gorilla?

its alot harder to kill 32 people with a knife.

or a bow and arrow. or a rock. or.......

i understand that some people want guns for protection, and some have reason for it such as if you live way out in the country and it would take a long time for help to arrive. however, in a place such as NYC, or a college town with a few hundred thousand people, there really is no need. You have police nearby which when combined with proper mental health treatment and much less guns you'll have alot less problems.

when was riflery last taught in, lets say england? how many shootings do they average per year?

I tend to concur but it should also be pointed out that the lack of ammunition dispensing machines in favor of soda machines and snack dispensers of all kinds in US educational establishments has lead to stressful overcrowding, obesity and frustration and with all the target practice available in the limited spare time of todays student and keen NRA member, finding a way up the class average via attrition may well require a more robust attitude to ammunition availability balanced against the higher mobility
of the targets. Historically speaking It would be quite unconstitutional and very un American to let intelligence and academic prowess win over against "might is right".

el duderino wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 16:24

when was riflery last taught in, lets say england? how many shootings do they average per year?

Proof that it is easy to dismiss a point out of hand when it does not easily fit into ones personal agenda.

It's a sign of the times, not of the access.

Would anyone like to discuss the ease of which guns and ammunition can be made illegally? How much more do you think they will be worth when guns and ammo become scarce.

This is a societal problem, not a gun problem.

Remember that McVeigh thing?

Let's outlaw Ryder trucks.

Fibes wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 14:58

Remember that McVeigh thing?

The Osama attack cover up? (IMO)

people with guns kill more people than people without guns do.

America isn't going to get rid of guns... but it would be nice if the right-wing gun nuts would ADMIT that the price we PAY for that is this sort of random occasional gun violence.

Phuckwit wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 22:48

I tend to concur but it should also be pointed out that the lack of ammunition dispensing machines in favor of soda machines and snack dispensers of all kinds in US educational establishments has lead to stressful overcrowding, obesity and frustration and with all the target practice available in the limited spare time of todays student and keen NRA member, finding a way up the class average via attrition may well require a more robust attitude to ammunition availability balanced against the higher mobility
of the targets. Historically speaking It would be quite unconstitutional and very un American to let intelligence and academic prowess win over against "might is right".

Nicely done...

now...

brush your teeth!

wwittman wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 01:07

people with guns kill more people than people without guns do.

America isn't going to get rid of guns... but it would be nice if the right-wing gun nuts would ADMIT that the price we PAY for that is this sort of random occasional gun violence.

They would be super retarded if they couldn't exterminate more with a pump gun than a stick.

I like how their bodies aren't even cold and the subject is gun control....

It makes me ill....

Some idiot on NPR was blaming Bush and the assault rifle ban.

What a jackass....

lemme nough

Nicely done...

now...

brush your teeth![/quote]

Thanks awfully for the kind words and advice, speaking of gunfire I must once again unreservedly apologize to our German cousins about the unfortunate misunderstanding between my great uncle Henry and the Herr Langsdorff in the approaches to the river Plate a little while back but I feel that it should be pointed out that the first shot was in fact fired by Herr Langsdorff and at a calibre of 381mm seemed rather threatening at the time.
Also my stepson James would like to apologize to our American cousins about his
great great granddad Philip's little problem with the USS Chesapeake and although we turned it into a flour mill my family would be quite happy to return the timber and several of the deck fittings in exchange for the return of our new world estates you now call Virginia and we will show you how to run it. Who the hell is this chap George Bush, funny the last George my family had any proper dealings with was called Washington but now I hear you have a rather common little Texan ranch hand running the place, no wonder its a bloody mess, same as it is here now, democracy eh! never quite got the hang of it myself. Dominion! Now that's the Fairfax watchword.

Sorry, but riflery secured US independence from England when the bastards went too far. Good lord, No one needs the police to come and "save" the back half of your family from being killed. By the time the cops arrive, game over.

I saw a gun wandering the streets aimlessly the other night, Thank god it didn't have a fool behind it.

Wake up.

el duderino wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 14:24

its alot harder to kill 32 people with a knife.

or a bow and arrow. or a rock. or.......

i understand that some people want guns for protection, and some have reason for it such as if you live way out in the country and it would take a long time for help to arrive. however, in a place such as NYC, or a college town with a few hundred thousand people, there really is no need. You have police nearby which when combined with proper mental health treatment and much less guns you'll have alot less problems.

when was riflery last taught in, lets say england? how many shootings do they average per year?

Fibes wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 17:58

el duderino wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 16:24

when was riflery last taught in, lets say england? how many shootings do they average per year?

Proof that it is easy to dismiss a point out of hand when it does not easily fit into ones personal agenda.

It's a sign of the times, not of the access.

Would anyone like to discuss the ease of which guns and ammunition can be made illegally? How much more do you think they will be worth when guns and ammo become scarce.

This is a societal problem, not a gun problem.

Remember that McVeigh thing?

Let's outlaw Ryder trucks.

ryder trucks? come on dude. mcveigh was using bombs, not guns.

i did not dismiss your point. In fact you didnt really respond to anything i said. just something asked.

As for the times, yes it plays a part. But easy and unnecessary access is a much larger part.

I just did a google search for gun statistics in england (which actually shows as England & Wales btw) and for multiple years on several sites it ranged from about 160 to 250 per year.

Doing the same search for the US showed that roughly 30,000 people die from gun violence each year. it goes up to about 35,000 some years.

Now the population for england and wales is about 60 million and here we're at 300 million. so multiplying theirs by 5 at the high end seems fair. 30,000 to 1250.

does it solve it? no. but its a hell of a lot better.

as for making guns and ammunition illegally, yeah it can happen and does. if it were scarce the price would rise dramatically which is a good thing. less could afford them which means less guns which gives the potential for less violence.

ever heard that joke about if bullets cost a million dollars each? i think it was chris rock, not sure.

on a side note, I think Tik and Phuckwit should start a band. id totally go see that.

Taproot wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 22:36

Sorry, but riflery secured US independence from England when the bastards went too far.

plan on taking over the gov't?

do people use muskets these days?

Wasn't it in Scotland where somebody went to a preschool and stabbed a bunch of kids?

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 04:36

Wasn't it in Scotland where somebody went to a preschool and stabbed a bunch of kids?

Dunblane, Shot 16 school children. 1996.

Also we had the Hungerford Massacre in 1987, where 16 people were randomly shot and killed in a small market town by Michael Ryan.

Phuckwit wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 02:50

Thanks awfully for the kind words and advice, speaking of gunfire I must once again unreservedly apologize to our German cousins about the unfortunate misunderstanding between my great uncle Henry and the Herr Langsdorff in the approaches to the river Plate a little while back but I feel that it should be pointed out that the first shot was in fact fired by Herr Langsdorff and at a calibre of 381mm seemed rather threatening at the time.
Also my stepson James would like to apologize to our American cousins about his
great great granddad Philip's little problem with the USS Chesapeake and although we turned it into a flour mill my family would be quite happy to return the timber and several of the deck fittings in exchange for the return of our new world estates you now call Virginia and we will show you how to run it. Who the hell is this chap George Bush, funny the last George my family had any proper dealings with was called Washington but now I hear you have a rather common little Texan ranch hand running the place, no wonder its a bloody mess, same as it is here now, democracy eh! never quite got the hang of it myself. Dominion! Now that's the Fairfax watchword.

Excellent!

Love it!

Love it!

I'm on my way over for a pint!

Since you brought up military endeavooueurs...

Let's get down to cases...

There's really no reason to apologize, I think any thing y'all managed to thieve over two-hundred years ago has been more than made up for by the fact that our young military lads stationed in your fine land are and have been over there deflowering all your young lasses...for er...the last sixty years.

Since about twenty percent of the population of England got much better looking right after '45 I would say...

No hard feelings.

You guys would look like a bunch of inbred island monkeys if we didn't come over there and save you from the nazi's and inseminate the rest of you.

We've easily cornholed the equivalent of your entire female population by now....

I eagerly await you response.

Your new fan....

tik

an emotional situation like this is a great opportunity to outlaw firearms

nobody NEEDS a gun....

It's Pandora's box and it's already open...

There are an estimated 80,000,000 (yes, 80 million) gun owners in the US, and many of those own several guns - they won't all just go away. Even if the gov't outlawed all guns, there would still be many, many millions of guns floating around.

I don't know what the answer is (other than social reform), because we aren't about to get rid of the guns - they're simply everywhere in this country...

maxim wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 04:29

an emotional situation like this is a great opportunity to outlaw firearms

nobody NEEDS a gun....

Campus security sure NEEDED a gun to take that ***ker out. But I bet you could've saved the day by running up to the gunman and telling him, "No no, you have to stop. This is against the law."

It all boils down to a lack of personal responsibility in this entire country. The animal that killed these people is already being viewed as a victim because of his depression and issues. Boo hoo. The students were at the wrong place at the wrong time. They should've known better and stayed out of his way because he's special and we need to be sensitive to his condition. At least that's how the media is portaying it.

I think W. Wittman put it best in stating that the bodies aren't even cold and it's already a political issue. Sickening.

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 07:49

It's Pandora's box and it's already open...

There are an estimated 80,000,000 (yes, 80 million) gun owners in the US, and many of those own several guns - they won't all just go away. Even if the gov't outlawed all guns, there would still be many, many millions of guns floating around.

I don't know what the answer is (other than social reform), because we aren't about to get rid of the guns - they're simply everywhere in this country...

If you research it you'll quickly learn that firearms are not a leading cause of death in the U.S. Even counting for people shooting in self defense, etc. etc. They're not even in the top 10. Far more people are killed in traffic accidents every year, yet you don't hear any out cry about that.

The events in recent days are a real tragedy, but not critical mass. But it's not as sensational as heart disease, so the media does their thing, and we all just follow along like sheep. And we're lead to believe this is a widespread problem, and something must be done.

So the liberal answer is let's take all the guns away, and eliminate one of the least leading causes of death in the U.S. while exposing the law abiding citizens of the country to God knows what kind of victimizations.

If you don't think people "need" guns than you've never been in a situation where you needed one.

"Even if the gov't outlawed all guns, there would still be many, many millions of guns floating around."

at least, if they were outlawed people wouldn't feel like they have the RIGHT to own one

most people i know are law abiding citizens (as much as they can help it...)

RPhilbeck wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 08:32

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 07:49

It's Pandora's box and it's already open...

There are an estimated 80,000,000 (yes, 80 million) gun owners in the US, and many of those own several guns - they won't all just go away. Even if the gov't outlawed all guns, there would still be many, many millions of guns floating around.

I don't know what the answer is (other than social reform), because we aren't about to get rid of the guns - they're simply everywhere in this country...

If you research it you'll quickly learn that firearms are not a leading cause of death in the U.S. Even counting for people shooting in self defense, etc. etc. They're not even in the top 10. Far more people are killed in traffic accidents every year, yet you don't hear any out cry about that.

The events in recent days are a real tragedy, but not critical mass. But it's not as sensational as heart disease, so the media does their thing, and we all just follow along like sheep. And we're lead to believe this is a widespread problem, and something must be done.

So the liberal answer is let's take all the guns away, and eliminate one of the least leading causes of death in the U.S. while exposing the law abiding citizens of the country to God knows what kind of victimizations.

If you don't think people "need" guns than you've never been in a situation where you needed one.

Of course they're not a leading cause of death. That statistic is totally irrelevant. Are they the leading instrument of death in murder cases, though? I don't know, but I'm sure the statistics will read much differently when they actually apply to the situation.

BTW, I'm not picking sides here (yet), I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument, cause I'm a bastard like that. Twisted Evil

Fox

maxim wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 06:40

"Even if the gov't outlawed all guns, there would still be many, many millions of guns floating around."

at least, if they were outlawed people wouldn't feel like they have the RIGHT to own one

most people i know are law abiding citizens (as much as they can help it...)

It would put more guns in the hands of criminals and turn many, many 1000s of honest, hard working people into criminals. Sort of akin to the "War on Drugs". Little Johnny down the street gets 20 years for having some of them Marijuana Pills. Meanwhile, a man in Vermont kidnaps and sodomizes a child and the judge gives him 6 mos. house arrest (true story).

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 08:34

There's really no reason to apologize, I think any thing y'all managed to thieve over two-hundred years ago has been more than made up for by the fact that our young military lads stationed in your fine land are and have been over there deflowering all your young lasses...for er...the last sixty years.

Since about twenty percent of the population of England got much better looking right after '45 I would say...

No hard feelings.

You guys would look like a bunch of inbred island monkeys if we didn't come over there and save you from the nazi's and inseminate the rest of you.

We've easily cornholed the equivalent of your entire female population by now....

I eagerly await you response.

Your new fan....

tik

Quite right too, we did need a little help dealing with Herr Hitler, shame you chaps turned up a tad on the tardy side but better late than never. I would be the first to admit that particularly in this area the enormous ingress of US armed forces mainly
airmen and their supporting personnel armed with Liberators, Fortresses, Mustangs, silk stockings gramophone records and chewing gum, did a great deal to draw down the defenses of not not only Nazi germany but the underwear of a great many young women of the peasantry, thus vastly improving the breed. It should however be pointed out that my socioeconomic grouping have sought to improve our looks
by importing American actresses for breeding stock, in my case I managed to get a superb one from paramount pictures in Hollywood. See the following:
http://www.LouiseRobey.com

Frightfully pulchritudinous dontc'a think old chap?.
PS Vis a Vis the ownership of firearms in the US education system if you chaps limited it to say only the Ivy League college students and alumni you would probably have few if any problems. My family where very concerned about firearms falling into the hands of red indians and the French.
God save the Queen.

maxim wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 07:40

at least, if they were outlawed people wouldn't feel like they have the RIGHT to own one

most people i know are law abiding citizens (as much as they can help it...)

Indeed, but there's this pesky thing called the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution which reads:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
A majority of Americans read that to mean we can have guns. The 2nd Amendment will never be over-turned, and the US Constitution over-rides any other laws...

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20070417/D8OILK8O0.html

Japan is a country with virtually no guns, what makes anyone think gun control will work in a country with well over 100 million guns?

Just a thought...

It probably wouldn't be a success, Brad, but I'm sure it would help some.

Bull Craaaaap.

M

it's F'in crazy that a 9mm glock,

an assault weapon,

can be purchased legally,

as easily as a big mac in this country.

how about "some" gun control.

Brad made THE point.

It's tragic that people have to die, hell, I lost a brother to murder so I understand COMPLETELY what those people are going through. I also understand that if there was another SANE armed individual around 25-28 of those families wouldn't be feeling the emptyness and pain they are right now.

i dig music wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 18:58

it's F'in crazy that a 9mm glock,

an assault weapon,

can be purchased legally,

as easily as a big mac in this country.

how about "some" gun control.

Why did you use the term "assault weapon".

Never heard that term before.

lemme nough...

tik

I think a little gun control couldn't hurt.

But I also agree with Fibes ... If others there were armed, things would have turned out differently.

You guys (in the US) need a level playing field. Either everyone carries a gun, or no one does. (not too doable I know) I would opt for the second option.

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 12:16

i dig music wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 18:58

it's F'in crazy that a 9mm glock,

an assault weapon,

can be purchased legally,

as easily as a big mac in this country.

how about "some" gun control.

Why did you use the term "assault weapon".

Never heard that term before.

lemme nough...

tik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon

Assault weapon... 'general term'. Assault rifle... established technical definition..

Assault weapon? My .357s? Says you. Assault rifle? My AR-15? Says you.

It's all BS, it's you making something sound bad.

All weapons are made for assault. Careful not to assault the wrong person, lest ye be assaulted.

Wiki is a good loophole. Finally, agenda has found resource.

M

Tidewater wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 20:02

Assault weapon... 'general term'. Assault rifle... established technical definition..

Assault weapon? My .357s? Says you. Assault rifle? My AR-15? Says you.

It's all BS, it's you making something sound bad.

All weapons are made for assault. Careful not to assault the wrong person, lest ye be assaulted.

Wiki is a good loophole. Finally, agenda has found resource.

M

Exactly.

Heralding terms like this is:

boring.

anti-communicative.

I only asked out of respect.

I am definitely a big fan of the system for gun control they have here in Germany.

There are two major problems.

1. A shitload of foreign types are illegally armed. If the economy ever takes a serious dip and the folks here have to resort to priorities on who gets what hand out.....we/they are in some deep kimchi.

1 (part two). It has some serious aristocratic trappings.

FUKK THAT!

My current inventory here in the studio:

Handguns (read:assault revolvers)

S&W .44 mag
Freedom Arms .454

Long shtuff

Beretta 12 gauge
No name cheapo M1 copy
Mauser 100 year anniversary .416 Rigby
Mauser 1909 "Agentino" 7x57

That's it. Just what I need.

Had to sell the rest to keep the studio running.

They have very strict rules here.

No history of public goofiness.

Clean Polizei record.

But you could get any weapon you want (so I'm told) illegally.

Most euro-ding dongs have no idea which end the bullet comes out of.

I am convinced that if any jackass could buy a gun this place would be zippin' with lead.

lemme nough...

tik

lemme nough....

tik

rankus wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 13:40

You guys (in the US) need a level playing field. Either everyone carries a gun, or no one does. (not too doable I know) I would opt for the second option.

i like this idea. would those of you who are all about guns feel better if every single person in america had at least 1 gun with them and fully loaded at all times?

i think shit would get chaotic pretty fast. but hey....

im off to the shootin range....

rankus wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 11:40

You guys (in the US) need a level playing field. Either everyone carries a gun, or no one does. (not too doable I know) I would opt for the second option.

I tell you what. An armed society is a polite society. Not joking.

Taproot wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 20:39

rankus wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 11:40

You guys (in the US) need a level playing field. Either everyone carries a gun, or no one does. (not too doable I know) I would opt for the second option.

I tell you what. An armed society is a polite society. Not joking.

I totally disagree.

London is very polite. 12 million or so mother fukkers packed in there and people say "excuse me" right and fukken left.

And

No shootin' irons.

It has nothing to do with having a piece.

It's the ability to wander outside and not be a psycho jackass.

lemme nough

It would kinda be like every country in the world having the doomsday machine from Dr. Strangelove.

Not so sure that'd be a good thing...

Wait, apparently there's a town in georgia where it's mandatory to own a gun!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070418/us_nm/usa_crime_shooting _town_dc_2;_ylt=Ar9F9wOreic8eWSFTw5fHdpH2ocA

look, let's forget about definitions, but i will say it was not a bb gun used in these horrific killings.

i am not attacking responsible gun owners. i understand it's anyones right to bear arms, so i don't care if you have a 100 357's. my point is that maybe some common sense might help where regulation is concerned. the dealer said, "he seemed like a regular college kid", i don't know of any regular college kids, let alone adults, walking around with 9mm glocks, so what would be wrong with wondering or saying to a college kid, what the hell you gonna do with that?

if by asking that question, is a violation of someone's rights, then yes, we should all stock up to level the playing field to get the bad who did'nt get the girl. maybe they should issue glocks to all students from the campus book store. maybe if there were other students packing glocks the death toll of this shooting would've been kept down in the single digits.

or maybe, somebody could have said to the kid, what the hell you gonna do with that?

i dig music wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 21:06

look, let's forget about definitions, but i will say it was not a bb gun used in these horrific killings.

i am not attacking responsible gun owners. i understand it's anyones right to bear arms, so i don't care if you have a 100 357's. my point is that maybe some common sense might help where regulation is concerned. the dealer said, "he seemed like a regular college kid", i don't know of any regular college kids, let alone adults, walking around with 9mm glocks, so what would be wrong with wondering or saying to a college kid, what the hell you gonna do with that?

if by asking that question, is a violation of someone's rights, then yes, we should all stock up to level the playing field to get the bad who did'nt get the girl. maybe they should issue glocks to all students from the campus book store. maybe if there were other students packing glocks the death toll of this shooting would've been kept down in the single digits.

or maybe, somebody could have said to the kid, what the hell you gonna do with that?

Cool post.

I guess when you find an answer, we'll all know.

tik

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 19:44

Taproot wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 20:39

rankus wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 11:40

You guys (in the US) need a level playing field. Either everyone carries a gun, or no one does. (not too doable I know) I would opt for the second option.

I tell you what. An armed society is a polite society. Not joking.

I totally disagree.

London is very polite. 12 million or so mother fukkers packed in there and people say "excuse me" right and fukken left.

And

No shootin' irons.

It has nothing to do with having a piece.

It's the ability to wander outside and not be a psycho jackass.

lemme nough

Dear Tik. That has nothing to do with availability of fire arms for British citizens, its simply a very real fear, born of some considerable experience of getting into an argument with anyone and an American friend turning up with a very large gun and shooting everyone, friend or foe. All I can say is thank God the shooter took his own life before the campus police had a chance to open fire or the death toll would have been in the hundreds.

Phuckwit wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 23:03

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 19:44

Taproot wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 20:39

rankus wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 11:40

You guys (in the US) need a level playing field. Either everyone carries a gun, or no one does. (not too doable I know) I would opt for the second option.

I tell you what. An armed society is a polite society. Not joking.

I totally disagree.

London is very polite. 12 million or so mother fukkers packed in there and people say "excuse me" right and fukken left.

And

No shootin' irons.

It has nothing to do with having a piece.

It's the ability to wander outside and not be a psycho jackass.

lemme nough

Dear Tik. That has nothing to do with availability of fire arms for British citizens, its simply a very real fear, born of some considerable experience of getting into an argument with anyone and an American friend turning up with a very large gun and shooting everyone, friend or foe. All I can say is thank God the shooter took his own life before the campus police had a chance to open fire or the death toll would have been in the hundreds.

LMFAO...

It's really the same shock value if some limey bastard leaves a tip or offers to pick up the check.

Or is able to actually do something without telling everyone about it...

lemme nough

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 07:50

maxim wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 07:40

at least, if they were outlawed people wouldn't feel like they have the RIGHT to own one

most people i know are law abiding citizens (as much as they can help it...)

Indeed, but there's this pesky thing called the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution which reads:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
A majority of Americans read that to mean we can have guns. The 2nd Amendment will never be over-turned, and the US Constitution over-rides any other laws...

Well-regulated militia? That implies all gun owners have registered their weapons with the state and receive proper training on a continuing basis. They should all be subject to regulations regarding background checks. They should also be available to be called up to defend said Free State.

So all gun owners should expect their draft notices and as such should get ready to be shipped off to Iraq.

Unless they want to rise up against a government that would force them to serve overseas.

A conundrum.

I'm still waiting for the 2nd Amendment Absolutists to start defending the REST of the Bill of Rights.

We didn't need habeus corpus anyways.

-a

Fox wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 12:00

Wait, apparently there's a town in georgia where it's mandatory to own a gun!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070418/us_nm/usa_crime_shooting _town_dc_2;_ylt=Ar9F9wOreic8eWSFTw5fHdpH2ocA

This town is what I was thinking about when I posted.... In the "wild wild west" there was very little crime... everybody was "packin"

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 22:52

Phuckwit wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 23:03

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 19:44

Taproot wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 20:39

rankus wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 11:40

You guys (in the US) need a level playing field. Either everyone carries a gun, or no one does. (not too doable I know) I would opt for the second option.

I tell you what. An armed society is a polite society. Not joking.

I totally disagree.

London is very polite. 12 million or so mother fukkers packed in there and people say "excuse me" right and fukken left.

And

No shootin' irons.

It has nothing to do with having a piece.

It's the ability to wander outside and not be a psycho jackass.

lemme nough

Dear Tik. That has nothing to do with availability of fire arms for British citizens, its simply a very real fear, born of some considerable experience of getting into an argument with anyone and an American friend turning up with a very large gun and shooting everyone, friend or foe. All I can say is thank God the shooter took his own life before the campus police had a chance to open fire or the death toll would have been in the hundreds.

LMFAO...

It's really the same shock value if some limey bastard leaves a tip or offers to pick up the check.

Or is able to actually do something without telling everyone about it...

lemme nough

Check out my new european ride man!, got this sucker from the guys at das basampt fur wehrtechnic und bershafung, Mercedes dealership in Dortmund Dude!.

http://photos.hi5.com/0001/630/704/GAS43C630704-02.jpg

Fully loaded man. 88, 7.62's V12 Ouyh! Hummer Schmummer! this is a Panther Man!.
Hey I got me the chauffeur dud's too kinda snazzy huh? wait till I get the spinner rims and candy apple paint and cherry bombs, headers an shit. Sound System needs some work though, was thinking JBL homes! Chick magnet for college you kidding me?.

Obviously I am impressed.

I guess that's a super sport (ss).

The 88 is way out of my league.

Rounds are way to much, but the hunting revier needed...

The neighbors would definitely bitch.

As far as picking up chicks...

weigh! brough!

lol... no.. lmao.

M

So who makes all these handguns that everyone living in fear feels the need so badly to go out and buy? Could it be the same people selling us all this fear?
I carry a knife for protection from dogs or in a pinch if I was in a life threatening situation, self protection. (I have several friends who have been mauled badly by dogs) If someone has a gun, he can have my wallet, car whatever. I can always get another.

We are all being sold a bill of goods all the time by all media. The trick is to make people think that they are not being manipulated, but are choosing by free will.

Be afraid, be very afraid! Yellow alert! Terrrrists!

Fuck guns and the people who make and sell them and sell us on the idea that we need them. If you live in grizzly bear country, you need a rifle. No-one needs a handgun unless you plan to kill a person with it.

Quote:

If someone has a gun, he can have my wallet, car whatever. I can always get another.

Funny, in my hood most of the muggings by handgun wielding perps end up with the victim shot no matter how quickly they give up the loot.

So, start saving for a lung, heart or some other parts you might need.

Fibes wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 14:06

Quote:

If someone has a gun, he can have my wallet, car whatever. I can always get another.

Funny, in my hood most of the muggings by handgun wielding perps end up with the victim shot no matter how quickly they give up the loot.

So, start saving for a lung, heart or some other parts you might need.

I get your point. Maybe it's time to move on. It's a big world........

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 05:11

Obviously I am impressed.

I guess that's a super sport (ss).

The 88 is way out of my league.

Rounds are way to much, but the hunting revier needed...

The neighbors would definitely bitch.

As far as picking up chicks...

weigh! brough!

Ya Die Bremsspur! Donna und Shizer das 88 ist zer gut!
index.php/fa/4904/0/

Und das V12 wirtschaftlich? Ya Stalingrad hin und zur

Welp, I guess now Santa drives a Prius.

M

Les Ismore wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 22:50

So who makes all these handguns that everyone living in fear feels the need so badly to go out and buy? Could it be the same people selling us all this fear?
I carry a knife for protection from dogs or in a pinch if I was in a life threatening situation, self protection. (I have several friends who have been mauled badly by dogs) If someone has a gun, he can have my wallet, car whatever. I can always get another.

We are all being sold a bill of goods all the time by all media. The trick is to make people think that they are not being manipulated, but are choosing by free will.

Be afraid, be very afraid! Yellow alert! Terrrrists!

Fuck guns and the people who make and sell them and sell us on the idea that we need them. If you live in grizzly bear country, you need a rifle. No-one needs a handgun unless you plan to kill a person with it.

Dude!

It's cool that you can sum all of this up so easily.

I own a .44 mag and a .454, both revolvers.

There is no way I would even think about using them to shoot a human.

I think you are way wrapped up on this.

I definitely would not give someone my wallet though.

Fukk that!

I have never met anyone that was attacked by a grizzly.

I know three guys very well that have been attacked by boar here.

But you pretty much can't get the revolver out fast enough.

And they attack super fast and low and are cutting arteries with their tusks before you can get the hammer back.

One guy I hunt with shot one in the face while being chewed on.

The Saturday after next I will be at the foot of the Alps running around the woods like a maniac. None of the people I will be with will be thinking about crazy bullshit, but we hope to eat well and shoot clean.

Then off to AES in Vienna....

Good luck with figuring all this shit out.

tik

Phuckwit wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 23:57

Ya Die Bremsspur! Donna und Shizer das 88 ist zer gut!

Und das V12 wirtschaftlich? Ya Stalingrad hin und zur

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 19, 2007, 06:54:22 PM

Les Ismore wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 23:18

Fibes wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 14:06

Quote:

If someone has a gun, he can have my wallet, car whatever. I can always get another.

Funny, in my hood most of the muggings by handgun wielding perps end up with the victim shot no matter how quickly they give up the loot.

So, start saving for a lung, heart or some other parts you might need.

I get your point. Maybe it's time to move on. It's a big world........

C'mon over to Europe!

There are a shitload of guns in every country except maybe Old Blighty.

The gunshows over here are even bigger than the ones your prolly used to.

lemme nough...

tik

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Phuckwit on April 19, 2007, 08:37:06 PM

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 23:49

Phuckwit wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 23:57

Ya Die Bremsspur! Donna und Shizer das 88 ist zer gut!

Und das V12 wirtschaftlich? Ya Stalingrad hin und zur

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: PRobb on April 19, 2007, 09:49:26 PM

Fibes wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 13:01

Brad made THE point.

It's tragic that people have to die, hell, I lost a brother to murder so I understand COMPLETELY what those people are going through. I also understand that if there was another SANE armed individual around 25-28 of those families wouldn't be feeling the emptyness and pain they are right now.

Here's the problem with that. Let's try two scenarios.

1. Cho walks into the crowded classroom. Someone in the class is armed. He pulls his weapon and calmly puts a bullet between Cho's eyes. That would have been lovely.

2. Cho walks into the crowded classroom. Twelve people in the class have guns. Some are calm, some aren't. Some are trained in the use of their weapons, some aren't. They all pull their guns and start shooting. All the students in the other classes, also armed, hear the commotion and pull their weapons. Someone in one of the other rooms panics and fires. Everybody starts shooting.

I'm sorry about your brother I can't imagine the pain and rage.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: rphilbeck on April 19, 2007, 10:17:05 PM

Les Ismore wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 16:50

I carry a knife for protection from dogs or in a pinch if I was in a life threatening situation, self protection.

Oh this is golden. Rambo here is going to knife Chile the Chihuahua should he come nipping at his feet.

Seriously though, I'd like to see you muster the strength to hold on to a knife, much less lunge it into the muscle bound bone filled frame of a pit pull as he chews your leg off. Unless you're that dude from Young Guns II...get some mace.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: rankus on April 19, 2007, 10:25:01 PM

PRobb wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 18:49

2. Cho walks into the crowded classroom. Twelve people in the class have guns. Some are calm, some aren't. Some are trained in the use of their weapons, some aren't. They all pull their guns and start shooting. All the students in the other classes, also armed, hear the commotion and pull their weapons. Someone in one of the other rooms panics and fires. Everybody starts shooting.

Referred to as "contagious gunfire" ... VERY real and very dangerous.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Les Ismore on April 20, 2007, 01:24:15 AM

RPhilbeck wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 19:17

Les Ismore wrote on Thu, 19 April 2007 16:50

I carry a knife for protection from dogs or in a pinch if I was in a life threatening situation, self protection.

Oh this is golden. Rambo here is going to knife Chile the Chihuahua should he come nipping at his feet.

Seriously though, I'd like to see you muster the strength to hold on to a knife, much less lunge it into the muscle bound bone filled frame of a pit pull as he chews your leg off. Unless you're that dude from Young Guns II...get some mace.

Mace is unlikely to work on a pit bull in attack mode.
The appropriate place for your knife I believe on a pit bull is the jaw muscle in the back of the their mouth. Otherwise they don't release.
A good friend of mine was on tour in Europe a few years ago when she was walking on a beach and a German Shepherd attacked her. She spent a long time in the hospital and was messed up pretty bad. Another friend who literaly had her face ripped off, again by a German Shepherd. Thirty years later she still has the scars.
Mace will work on most dogs but not necessarily Pit Bulls.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 20, 2007, 04:20:46 AM

Phuckwit wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 02:37

What oh Tik! thanks awfully old boy, mines a half of bitter as it happens.
Seriously though chaps its far worse buying oranges in Bagdad
this week. You might even get run over by a bus. Having to cart about a jolly big gun seems a hell of a drag, Christ one could get all hot and bothered and jolly baitey and get into a skirmish and what not with someone, that wouldn't do at all. Besides chaps there is the school of thought, that its better duck and hide, if its a surprise attack.. and if it isn't, why aren't you dug in and further more the key question happens to be, is there any very good reason why are you still hanging around here.

It don't matter if it's all bitter, it's on me.

Never bought an orange in Baghhdahd.

You've prolly heard of this thing called the British Army?

Or maybe I don't get your joke. Since they are over there as well.

I think the key question is not why we are still hanging around.

I think it could be will our imcompetence (you're at the front of the line btw) and our arrogance somehow not overwhelm our stance for humanity.

But maybe your right.

Finally, as I am sure you know, you have to assault through an ambush...or suprise attack or whatever.

Obviously that's not easy when said ambusher has just vaporized himself.

lemme nough limey...

tik

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: vegas4ever on April 20, 2007, 09:22:41 AM

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 03:20

Phuckwit wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 02:37

What oh Tik! thanks awfully old boy, mines a half of bitter as it happens.
Seriously though chaps its far worse buying oranges in Bagdad
this week. You might even get run over by a bus. Having to cart about a jolly big gun seems a hell of a drag, Christ one could get all hot and bothered and jolly baitey and get into a skirmish and what not with someone, that wouldn't do at all. Besides chaps there is the school of thought, that its better duck and hide, if its a surprise attack.. and if it isn't, why aren't you dug in and further more the key question happens to be, is there any very good reason why are you still hanging around here.

It don't matter if it's all bitter, it's on me.

Never bought an orange in Baghhdahd.

You've prolly heard of this thing called the British Army?

Or maybe I don't get your joke. Since they are over there as well.

I think the key question is not why we are still hanging around.

I think it could be will our imcompetence (you're at the front of the line btw) and our arrogance somehow not overwhelm our stance for humanity.

But maybe your right.

Finally, as I am sure you know, you have to assault through an ambush...or suprise attack or whatever.

Obviously that's not easy when said ambusher has just vaporized himself.

lemme nough limey...

tik

Not that it has to do with anything but.....

When I was 15 my dad took me to San andres (small island) there I saw a man without his right arm, ask we walk thru the plaza I saw many people with missing arms,legs,eyes I remember turning to my dad and asking was up? he said look at the cops, I look and they had a run down uniform and a shiny beutifull "machete", my dad said "If you steal they cut your finger off, the second time long sleve (take off the hand), the thrird time short sleve and the forth the cut the head off. for every law there is a sentence carry on with the machete."

as for the guns... I have a gun, its a auto w/ hollow points w 300 rounds ? no!

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Fibes on April 20, 2007, 09:57:34 AM

Quote:

as for the guns... I have a gun, its a auto w/ hollow points w 300 rounds ? no!

I hope you never get attacked by a mob of 301 people.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 20, 2007, 10:05:31 AM

Fibes wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 15:57

Quote:

as for the guns... I have a gun, its a auto w/ hollow points w 300 rounds ? no!

I hope you never get attacked by a mob of 301 people.

Best to line up your shots.

Vegas,

The 300 rounds and your signature block are very scary.

lemme nough....

tik

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: danickstr on April 20, 2007, 10:21:12 AM

guns are penises for the sexually dysfunctional. If a guy is getting laid all the time he won't have time to dick around with stroking his guns.

Girls, your job is to lay all the geeks with guns, for the good of humanity.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Taproot on April 20, 2007, 10:29:25 AM

Self edited

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: danickstr on April 20, 2007, 10:33:54 AM

I guess you mean a woman's sexual area represented by a weapon and it seems to do fine without a metaphor. Sent many men to their doom. Or paradise, however you want to put it. Laughing

edit: but if you are trying to be funny by calling me a girl, then I pity your infantile sense of humor.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Taproot on April 20, 2007, 10:53:20 AM

danickstr wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 08:33

I guess you mean a woman's sexual area represented by a weapon and it seems to do fine without a metaphor. Sent many men to their doom. Or paradise, however you want to put it. Laughing

edit: but if you are trying to be funny by calling me a girl, then I pity your infantile sense of humor.

Post something "infantile" and you've got to expect something "infantile" thrown back at you.

I've edited this comment and extend an apology. Just enjoying a little sparring match, but out of respect to the deceased (which is a the heart of this thread) I concede. No hard feelings i hope.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Phuckwit on April 20, 2007, 11:00:48 AM

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 09:20

Phuckwit wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 02:37

What oh Tik! thanks awfully old boy, mines a half of bitter as it happens.
Seriously though chaps its far worse buying oranges in Bagdad
this week. You might even get run over by a bus. Having to cart about a jolly big gun seems a hell of a drag, Christ one could get all hot and bothered and jolly baitey and get into a skirmish and what not with someone, that wouldn't do at all. Besides chaps there is the school of thought, that its better duck and hide, if its a surprise attack.. and if it isn't, why aren't you dug in and further more the key question happens to be, is there any very good reason why are you still hanging around here.

It don't matter if it's all bitter, it's on me.

Never bought an orange in Baghhdahd.

You've prolly heard of this thing called the British Army?

Or maybe I don't get your joke. Since they are over there as well.

I think the key question is not why we are still hanging around.

I think it could be will our imcompetence (you're at the front of the line btw) and our arrogance somehow not overwhelm our stance for humanity.

But maybe your right.

Finally, as I am sure you know, you have to assault through an ambush...or suprise attack or whatever.

Obviously that's not easy when said ambusher has just vaporized himself.

lemme nough limey...

tik

Yes I have heard of the British Army and "here" might be defined by feet or yards rather than countries. In fact it would be rather safer if the British army could stand around the back of one of those large solid looking Abrams M1 A1 thingies until the pubs open old chap.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: danickstr on April 20, 2007, 11:02:52 AM

edit: I will stop goading the gun-owners. It can be a fine hobby.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Les Ismore on April 20, 2007, 04:29:00 PM

People, especially North Americans are very good at trying to deal with symptoms while never addressing the causes. One buys a gun to protect oneself from others who would attack or hurt you. Meanwhile their society has a long history of and continues to disenfranchise certain components of their society, leading in many cases to crime, riots, violence, drug abuse, etc. and a loss of security to all of society.
The more one tries to find security while treating the symptoms but not the causes the farther one gets away from it.
In the case of this particular massacre, it's very unfortunate that this individual did not get the correct treatment and help he needed, probably institutionalization. A number of years ago in Canada they stopped institutionalizing most people with mental illnesses. They kicked them out into the street with enough money to survive only on skid row.
Some people need institutionalization. How we treat our most vulnerable citizens is a reflection of who we are as a society.
But hey, they saved some money!

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Phuckwit on April 20, 2007, 05:34:19 PM

Yery astute! Yes well Britain on the other hand continues to disenfranchise almost all components of our society, leading in the main to a real sense of community. Our mental hospitals have all been closed and the occupants thrown out in the street with about the same fiscal situation as the rest of the vast disenfranchised population, result relative harmony.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 20, 2007, 06:03:03 PM

Phuckwit wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 23:34

Yery astute! Yes well Britain on the other hand continues to disenfranchise almost all components of our society, leading in the main to a real sense of community. Our mental hospitals have all been closed and the occupants thrown out in the street with about the same fiscal situation as the rest of the vast disenfranchised population, result relative harmony.

But enough about the royals...

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: ssltech on April 20, 2007, 10:27:56 PM

He wasn't talking about the Palace...

He was referring to the pubs!

Keef

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: bigaudioblowhard on April 21, 2007, 01:30:45 AM

Its certainly okay with me if people own guns. I've owned three myself, but own none right now. Two were .22 sport rifles and one was a 1943 Lee Enfield 303, full stock, bayonet mount, no bayonet. (like a shoulder mounted cannon lads!). I let em go before I moved here, and through the riots and I still don't think I need one.

Here's my point. We've gotta have a better way of making sure people like Cho and Phil Spector don't get access to guns, period. As I said in an earlier thread about the Spector trial, given his history, how the fuck did he still have guns anyway?

"oh, you're a complete wacko with a history of waving loaded guns at people, but no one is ever going to do anything if you have a few around the house".

You can get an FBI army after you for having a Swiss Army Knife on Jet Blue, but complete lunatics having faced judges about the condition of their sanity go home back to their arsenal? I'm sorry, this is outta control.

bab

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 21, 2007, 04:15:45 AM

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Sat, 21 April 2007 07:30

Its certainly okay with me if people own guns. I've owned three myself, but own none right now. Two were .22 sport rifles and one was a 1943 Lee Enfield 303, full stock, bayonet mount, no bayonet. (like a shoulder mounted cannon lads!). I let em go before I moved here, and through the riots and I still don't think I need one.

Here's my point. We've gotta have a better way of making sure people like Cho and Phil Spector don't get access to guns, period. As I said in an earlier thread about the Spector trial, given his history, how the fuck did he still have guns anyway?

"oh, you're a complete wacko with a history of waving loaded guns at people, but no one is ever going to do anything if you have a few around the house".

You can get an FBI army after you for having a Swiss Army Knife on Jet Blue, but complete lunatics having faced judges about the condition of their sanity go home back to their arsenal? I'm sorry, this is outta control.

bab

You are absolutely right.

I think Germany has it right.

I own a small arsenal.

If I get too many DUIs and lose my drivers license permantly...

NO MORE GUNS.

If a doctor says I'm whacko...

NO MORE GUNS.

If I beat someone's ass because I am attacked then it's up to the legal system.

But if I go around menacing people or start the fight.....

NO MORE GUNS.

There was a kid here who dressed in camo and face paint and shot his teacher then tried to commit hairy canary...

He failed and is still in a coma.

He was able to get the gun from his father's gun safe by having a copy of the key made that his father didn't know about.

So you can do it here but it's not easy.

The only problem is that there are a shitload of illegal weapons and it is my opinion that if times get hard here shit will get interesting.

index.php/fa/4917/0/

Mandrake! in the name of Her Majesty and the Continental Congress come here and feed me this belt, boy!
lemme nough

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: danickstr on April 21, 2007, 11:50:41 PM

It just occured to me that mandrake is a poisonous root. I will have to watch Strangelove again with that in mind.

So many symbolic metaphors, so little time.

Tik wrote : Enough about the royals...roflmfbo.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Phuckwit on April 22, 2007, 11:09:48 AM

Anybody know what the US attitude to gun control is in Iraq? So if the marines bust into a suspected terrorists house in say Bagdad is it absolutely no guns, ammunition, IED's or large truck bombs. Or does the US military just let them keep a few of them in deference to their own laws?. I think I might just have hit on one of the slight problems needing to be addressed here.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 22, 2007, 11:21:35 AM

Phuckwit wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 17:09

Anybody know what the US attitude to gun control is in Iraq? So if the marines bust into a suspected terrorists house in say Bagdad is it absolutely no guns, ammunition, IED's or large truck bombs. Or does the US military just let them keep a few of them in deference to their own laws?. I think I might just have hit on one of the slight problems needing to be addressed here.

Actually old chap...swing and a miss for you....

Once you're a felon you lose your constitutional right to bear arms....

Also, it is up to each state's constitution...

And the United States Federal Government is mismanaging things in Iraq...

I know it's confusing for you since we don't have a queen or a bunch of ga-hey royal buttboyz running things....

So...

You just hit air this time...

BTW...Your posts have a lot of people cracking up that come by here

Classic Material...

Cheers...

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: danickstr on April 22, 2007, 03:39:41 PM

Tik is this bitterness warranted? Surprised

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: stevieeastend on April 22, 2007, 04:24:57 PM

Sometimes I got the feeling that the gap between middle europe and the rest of the world gets even bigger than the ozone whole.. only TIK right there in the middle Wink

Seriously, obviously the answer to this topic is very easy... Civilize the people. Nobody can really think that there´s a reason and space for guns when starting doing so...

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: wwittman on April 22, 2007, 04:54:57 PM

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 11:21

I know it's confusing for you since we don't have a queen or a bunch of ga-hey royal buttboyz running things....

well, there's Karl Rove.
close enough

actually as it turns out there IS a federal law that prevented this guy from buying guns, as he had been ajudicated as mentally unstable... and the federal law supercedes state law.
but, naturally, Virginia, like many states, simply chooses to IGNORE the federal law.

I hope some families sue the pants off the Virginia governement.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 22, 2007, 06:51:03 PM

danickstr wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 21:39

Tik is this bitterness warranted? Surprised

Wow....

Bitterness....

I can't wait to share a pint and continue.

I am pretty sure it is understood that it seriously taking the piss...

But just for you watching at home, I of course adore every little island monkey, product of mother england, shit talking bloke out there...or perhaps you didn't see me defending Winnie earlier....

Nick,

This piss taking between those fukkers on that stupid island and god's chosen from the greatest country in the world, bar none has been going on for a long, long time.

I personally relish the fukk out of it as there is nothing I enjoy more than a great toe to toe encounter....

I completely revel and enjoy when the "other side" trumps my last insult.

It's good natured...

and as god intended...

In fact, three hours earlier I was handed an insult on the phone from my ex bass players father (Londener) and we both had a good chuckle at my expense....

When you get a good angle and work it in to the banter over dinner it's THE best...

There is of course a modicum of respect evidenced by my use of the term "royals". You won't see me making direct insults or getting personal. It's all banal shit talking...

Nick,

Just know that inside of every limey, cheap, good for nothing, non-space progamme having, shitty teeth chomping, boring and mealy mouthed Brit, there is an 'merican waiting to come out....

Look at Wittman, couldn't wait to get over and start talking shit about us...

lemme nough...

tik....

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 22, 2007, 06:57:27 PM

wwittman wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 22:54

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 11:21

I know it's confusing for you since we don't have a queen or a bunch of ga-hey royal buttboyz running things....

well, there's Karl Rove.
close enough

actually as it turns out there IS a federal law that prevented this guy from buying guns, as he had been ajudicated as mentally unstable... and the federal law supercedes state law.
but, naturally, Virginia, like many states, simply chooses to IGNORE the federal law.

I hope some families sue the pants off the Virginia governement.

W,

Really? Ajudicated?

If true you mentioned the problem....

government!

But they don't ignore federal law, they are too lazy to do their fukken jobs.

That's why the government never put out a good album.

lemme nough

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: maxim on April 22, 2007, 09:54:18 PM

tik wrote:

"That's why the government never put out a good album"

you mean the parliament?

(ducks out of the way)

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: i dig music on April 22, 2007, 10:14:56 PM

Quote:

lemme nough

tik mon,

you say this so often.

has no one ever told you before?

Laughing

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 23, 2007, 02:14:38 AM

i dig music wrote on Mon, 23 April 2007 04:14

Quote:

lemme nough

tik mon,

you say this so often.

has no one ever told you before?

Laughing

LMAO

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Phuckwit on April 23, 2007, 06:48:45 AM

Dear Tik
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! Jolly good show old chap, makes mental note, understands a bit of good old fashioned banter eh, Huzzar!.
I don't know if any of you chaps from the old US of A have an in with anybody from Pittsburgh but my brothers old regiment has just had a tiny prang with a roadside bomb and a Challenger 11. If you could see your way clear it seems we would like to borrow a few sheets of good quality steel and a big welder. Previously the Fuzzy Wussys had only managed to put annoying dents in the floor. I wonder if you could be awfully kind and try to see if you can do something about undercover munitions factories up north. And stop building that bloody useless wall. Its hearts and minds dear boy hearts and minds remember. Go out and buy some Tea chap and invite the bloody Sunnies round and get a few cucumber sandwiches while your at it. Don't you yanky chaps know how to run a bloody Empire.
Yours Fairfax

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Kris on April 23, 2007, 03:25:16 PM

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 18:57

wwittman wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 22:54

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 11:21

I know it's confusing for you since we don't have a queen or a bunch of ga-hey royal buttboyz running things....

well, there's Karl Rove.
close enough

actually as it turns out there IS a federal law that prevented this guy from buying guns, as he had been ajudicated as mentally unstable... and the federal law supercedes state law.
but, naturally, Virginia, like many states, simply chooses to IGNORE the federal law.

I hope some families sue the pants off the Virginia governement.

W,

Really? Ajudicated?

If true you mentioned the problem....

government!

But they don't ignore federal law, they are too lazy to do their fukken jobs.

That's why the government never put out a good album.

lemme nough

I thought the IRS tapes was pretty good... http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album/0,,137816 ,00.html

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: wwittman on April 24, 2007, 01:06:02 AM

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 18:57

But they don't ignore federal law, they are too lazy to do their fukken jobs.

I'm letting you "nough"... no.. they CHOOSE to ignore the federal law.
as several other states do as well.

when a state chooses to pass a law that contradicts federal law on, say, medical marijuana, the feds are QUICK to jump on enforcement of the superceding federal law.

but when it comes to guns... they CHOOSE to turn a blind eye and stay clear.

we'll see if it changes now.
but I doubt it.
this admin is utterly in love with the gun lobby.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: maxim on April 24, 2007, 02:32:24 AM

"this admin is utterly in love with the gun..."

wot? cheney?

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 25, 2007, 12:43:02 PM

Phuckwit wrote on Mon, 23 April 2007 12:48

Dear Tik
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! Jolly good show old chap, makes mental note, understands a bit of good old fashioned banter eh, Huzzar!.
I don't know if any of you chaps from the old US of A have an in with anybody from Pittsburgh but my brothers old regiment has just had a tiny prang with a roadside bomb and a Challenger 11. If you could see your way clear it seems we would like to borrow a few sheets of good quality steel and a big welder. Previously the Fuzzy Wussys had only managed to put annoying dents in the floor. I wonder if you could be awfully kind and try to see if you can do something about undercover munitions factories up north. And stop building that bloody useless wall. Its hearts and minds dear boy hearts and minds remember. Go out and buy some Tea chap and invite the bloody Sunnies round and get a few cucumber sandwiches while your at it. Don't you yanky chaps know how to run a bloody Empire.
Yours Fairfax

Again for those of you not here in our studios, I would like to explain my take on this paragraph.

Then I have to stop fukken around and get to work.

Obviously, the whole goddamn thing is classic English.

It escapes cliche yet embodies something that would be the opposite of cliche...

Where was I?

Yeah,

This paragraph could simply not be written by an American.

Even if attempting parody.

Even after living amongst or breeding with "them"...yucky...

After attempting to conquer the world, reaching beyond the solar system, inventing most useful stuff, inventing all cool stuff except Mauser and Marshall, forging and outpacing the world in medicine, science and culture....

We still...

could not even begin to convey so many ideas or manipulate the language so skillfully in such a small space.

I don't see how these goddamn boys do it.

Mark Twain...

Noted for conveyance of an idea without all the frills.

And the ideas he espoused were big....like 'merica

Where as the above paragraph is precise, multi layered and enormous....all at the same time.

This is why 'merica is so fukken violent.

Most lashing out occurs after the phrase, "whut da fukk did you just say?!?!"

Just like when watching a dog lick his balls, a man must know his limitations. And there is no way any gringo could just start jotting some shit of that order.

The paragraph contains inclusiveness, and a very insightful self deprecating approach.

It is warm and meant to be deeply disturbing and provoking at the same time.

The reference to empire is completely sarcastic, self condemning, funny, and lacking any ostracizing element.

And that's all I have to say about it right now...

So fukk off people at home...

lemme nough...

tik

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: theremin on April 29, 2007, 03:00:20 PM

While gun control is not a bad idea. et al. keeping guns out of the hands of violent criminals with the use of background checks. gun bans are just plain useless, because the violent criminals can still get guns.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
"According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

* a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
* a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
* family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%"

criminals say they get guns from primarily illegal sources, that means they can still get guns while law abiding citizens will no longer be able to protect themselves.

And another quick statistic from the same source (the US Department of Justice)

"Incidents involving a firearm represented 9% of the 4.7 million violent crimes of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated and simple assault in 2005."

So the lion's share of violent crimes do not even involve firearms.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=paFiguresThurs18Crim efiguresud2Substitute&show_article=1
Gun crime has risen in Britain despite the gun ban.
"Guns were used in 4,120 robberies last year - a 10% jump - including a 9% rise to 1,439 in the number of street robberies where guns were used."

To comment on one other poster's thoughts that more people are killed in the US by guns is ludicrous. In fact it would be much more effective to ban driving. That way we can save even more lives. To be fair however, the traffic fatalities have been getting better over the last decade because of vehicle improvements such as electronic stability control. To that end, why not simply make guns safer for law abiding citizens and more difficult to obtain for criminals, solving the problem on all fronts.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0210e.asp
"Gun-control advocates look at guns only as a means to harm others even though they are more often used to prevent injury. According to a 1995 study entitled “Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun” by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, published by the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology at Northwestern University School of Law, law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year."

http://www.rense.com/general76/univ.htm
"Readers may be interested to know that Kleck is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause, among other politically liberal organizations. He is also a lifelong registered Democrat. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to the NRA, Handgun Control Inc., or any other advocacy group on either side of the gun-control issue, nor has he received funding for research from any such organization."

Gun control is a much smarter solution than gun bans.

In fact, imagine gun bans were implemented today, what could we look forward to?

Well if 80% of the criminals that use guns are still able to get them (see my cited source above), that means we will still likely have 80% of the offenses with firearms. That is 381,632 violent crimes with guns still.

approx. 2.5million crimes per year are prevented by law abiding citizens using firearms. A gun ban will drop this statistic to 0, as law abiding citizens tend not to break the law Razz

. Violent crime will certainly increase by several orders of magnitude.

In summary, yes we will have less accidental shootings, maybe less school shootings, but as an unfortunate side effect violent crime will most certainly increase as it has in Britain and other countries banning ownership for law abiding citizens.

And for a last bit of fat for gun ban advocates
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html
England, Denmark, Australia and other ranked higher for violent crime than did the US.

Hopefully the intelligent group in this forum can digest the info and come to sensible conclusions that gun bans do not work.

S!
Jason

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: stevieeastend on April 29, 2007, 03:30:38 PM

theremin wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 20:00

Hopefully the intelligent group in this forum can digest the info and come to sensible conclusions that gun bans do not work...

... in the U.S.

In middle europe it does, I can assure you..

There IS a substantial difference between the U.S. and europe when it comes to the usage of guns. It´s because of gun control since a VERY LONG period of time so that people adjust their manners. One could state gun control as a tool in order to civilise the people...

St.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 29, 2007, 04:16:42 PM

steveeastend wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 21:30

theremin wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 20:00

Hopefully the intelligent group in this forum can digest the info and come to sensible conclusions that gun bans do not work...

... in the U.S.

In middle europe it does, I can assure you..

There IS a substantial difference between the U.S. and europe when it comes to the usage of guns. It´s because of gun control since a VERY LONG period of time so that people adjust their manners. One could state gun control as a tool in order to civilise the people...

St.

Have you ever lived in the states?

People generally in Europe treat each other like shit.

I wouldn't say one group is more civilized at all, they're both monkees, but the gun control helps keep the shit out of the hands of the crazies...

BTW you guys just sold a shitload of sniper rifles to Iran...

congrats on the profit.

Steyer Mannlicher.

Anyway I find the differences and simularities very interesting.

Hey, I'll bring some German bier BTW...

lemme nough...

tik

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: theremin on April 29, 2007, 07:08:20 PM

steveeastend wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 14:30

theremin wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 20:00

Hopefully the intelligent group in this forum can digest the info and come to sensible conclusions that gun bans do not work...

... in the U.S.

In middle europe it does, I can assure you..

There IS a substantial difference between the U.S. and europe when it comes to the usage of guns. It´s because of gun control since a VERY LONG period of time so that people adjust their manners. One could state gun control as a tool in order to civilise the people...

St.

I am not saying gun control is not a good thing, just that gun bans are a bad thing. gun control and gun bans are different animals.

And people DON'T adjust their manners.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=paFiguresThurs18Crim efiguresud2Substitute&show_article=1
Gun crime has risen in Britain despite the gun ban.
"Guns were used in 4,120 robberies last year - a 10% jump - including a 9% rise to 1,439 in the number of street robberies where guns were used."

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: wwittman on April 30, 2007, 12:57:34 AM

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 16:16

Have you ever lived in the states?

People generally in Europe treat each other like shit.

I wouldn't say one group is more civilized at all,

I've lived both places... I don't think Britons "treat each other like shit" as much as Americans do... and I think in many ways Europeans ARE more civilised.

certainly as regards shooting each other... (which they do much less often)

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on April 30, 2007, 03:20:31 AM

wwittman wrote on Mon, 30 April 2007 06:57

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 16:16

Have you ever lived in the states?

People generally in Europe treat each other like shit.

I wouldn't say one group is more civilized at all,

I've lived both places... I don't think Britons "treat each other like shit" as much as Americans do... and I think in many ways Europeans ARE more civilised.

certainly as regards shooting each other... (which they do much less often)

W, it was an obvious reference to the continent...

get your shit together!

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: wwittman on May 01, 2007, 12:19:36 AM

oh okay.

so the fact that Britain seems able to control both guns and gun violence is irrelevant because you were tlaking baout the continent?

how many gun deaths per capita in Britain in a year versus in the US.
even NOW.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on May 01, 2007, 03:37:05 AM

W,

I guess you don't keep track of who says what in any given thread...

But that's cool...

Let's argue about whatever you want.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Larrchild on May 01, 2007, 04:37:29 AM

Quote:

W, it was an obvious reference to the continent...

get your shit together!

Enough incontinence, We are the cowboys of the world, I admit it.
But there are hot spots everywhere.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: PookyNMR on May 01, 2007, 11:46:53 AM

Larrchild wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 02:37

We are the cowboys of the world, I admit it.
But there are hot spots everywhere.

Yes, America seems to be quite the anomaly when it comes to violence. I've heard many reasonings, but whatever the case, it's observable that there is a culture of violence in the USA that you don't see as much in other 1st world nations.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: danickstr on May 01, 2007, 11:52:04 AM

thats cause we have to kick so much ass to keep you furigners from getting eaten by the big bad commies.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on May 01, 2007, 11:56:52 AM

PookyNMR wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 17:46

Larrchild wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 02:37

We are the cowboys of the world, I admit it.
But there are hot spots everywhere.

Yes, America seems to be quite the anomaly when it comes to violence. I've heard many reasonings, but whatever the case, it's observable that there is a culture of violence in the USA that you don't see as much in other 1st world nations.

I don't understand the comparisons to Western Europe....

Not only that our genetic composition was every crazy mother fukken religious fruitcake that they put on a boat to get rid of. Every mad murderous bastard that was too big for his little dorf in the Hessian hills got on the boat to kill and savage. Every whacked out loser who didn't fit in...on the boat.

Every poor loser mother fukker from Ireland and Italy who couldn't cut it...on the boat...

Every brother who got rounded it up in Africa...on the boat...

Every complete psychopathic restless dog fukking retard...on the boat...

Every burned out British rock star whose offspring look like they came from the Island of Dr. Monreau...

Mix that all together....

Here I am...

So don't compare me to these perfectly logical, conservative euros....

Cause I'll fukken bite you!

lemme nough...

tik

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Jon Hodgson on May 01, 2007, 12:29:22 PM

wwittman wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 05:19

oh okay.

so the fact that Britain seems able to control both guns and gun violence is irrelevant because you were tlaking baout the continent?

how many gun deaths per capita in Britain in a year versus in the US.
even NOW.

I suspect a lot of it may be down to perception and attitude to guns.

There seems to be much more of a macho attitude about guns in the US than in Europe.

Just look at the tv/movies...

In a British film, if someone pulls out a gun it's unusual, it's scary, ugly death is the most likely outcome, it's not glamourous.

In an American movie, guns come out all the time, there are endless gunfights where the good guys (or maybe the antihero in the film) are practically bulletproof, guns are cool, gunfights are exciting.

Take a look at where a lot of our increases in gun crime in the UK are happening, with street gangs caught up in the myth of "Gangsta" cool, perpetuated by artists who'd probably just end up as someone's bitch if they ever really went to prison, people are starting to think that carrying a gun makes them cool and tough... and then others start to carry guns in case they meet one of these guys...

Or look at Switzerland, more guns per citizen than the USA, but much less gun crime, why? I get the impression that in the USA owning guns is seen first and foremost as a RIGHT, whereas in Switzerland it is seen as a RESPONSIBILITY.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: danickstr on May 01, 2007, 12:32:59 PM

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 12:29

with street gangs caught up in the myth of "Gangsta" cool, perpetuated by artists who'd probably just end up as someone's bitch if they ever really went to prison

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on May 01, 2007, 01:01:34 PM

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 18:29

wwittman wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 05:19

oh okay.

so the fact that Britain seems able to control both guns and gun violence is irrelevant because you were tlaking baout the continent?

how many gun deaths per capita in Britain in a year versus in the US.
even NOW.

I suspect a lot of it may be down to perception and attitude to guns.

There seems to be much more of a macho attitude about guns in the US than in Europe.

Just look at the tv/movies...

In a British film, if someone pulls out a gun it's unusual, it's scary, ugly death is the most likely outcome, it's not glamourous.

In an American movie, guns come out all the time, there are endless gunfights where the good guys (or maybe the antihero in the film) are practically bulletproof, guns are cool, gunfights are exciting.

Take a look at where a lot of our increases in gun crime in the UK are happening, with street gangs caught up in the myth of "Gangsta" cool, perpetuated by artists who'd probably just end up as someone's bitch if they ever really went to prison, people are starting to think that carrying a gun makes them cool and tough... and then others start to carry guns in case they meet one of these guys...

Or look at Switzerland, more guns per citizen than the USA, but much less gun crime, why? I get the impression that in the USA owning guns is seen first and foremost as a RIGHT, whereas in Switzerland it is seen as a RESPONSIBILITY.

Those Swiss are some repsonsibility having mother fukker....

They sell their guns to the highest bidder...

right on...

fight the power...

what else do the movies say?

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: PookyNMR on May 01, 2007, 01:02:54 PM

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 10:29

There seems to be much more of a macho attitude about guns in the US than in Europe.

Just look at the tv/movies...

In a British film, if someone pulls out a gun it's unusual, it's scary, ugly death is the most likely outcome, it's not glamourous.

In an American movie, guns come out all the time, there are endless gunfights where the good guys (or maybe the antihero in the film) are practically bulletproof, guns are cool, gunfights are exciting.

Take a look at where a lot of our increases in gun crime in the UK are happening, with street gangs caught up in the myth of "Gangsta" cool, perpetuated by artists who'd probably just end up as someone's bitch if they ever really went to prison, people are starting to think that carrying a gun makes them cool and tough... and then others start to carry guns in case they meet one of these guys...

Or look at Switzerland, more guns per citizen than the USA, but much less gun crime, why? I get the impression that in the USA owning guns is seen first and foremost as a RIGHT, whereas in Switzerland it is seen as a RESPONSIBILITY.

Exactly - it is all part of the American culture of glamorized violence.

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: stevieeastend on May 01, 2007, 03:02:36 PM

Hi Tik,

see you on saturday and looking forward to the german beer, which I pretty much know from a couple of experiences in good old germany.

I´ve been to America very often, long stays, and I have to disagree that americans somehow treat each other better. I really do think that europeans, especially when it comes to the use of guns, ARE FOR SURE more civilized than americans.

The fact that european countries take the guns they keep away from their people, and sell it to, f.e. Irak is, on the other hand for sure an uncivilized act of ingnorance and greed.

cheers
steve

Title: Re: Maybe A Little Gun Control Might Help
Post by: Die BREMSSPUR on May 01, 2007, 05:31:24 PM

steveeastend wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 21:02

Hi Tik,

see you on saturday and looking forward to the german beer, which I pretty much know from a couple of experiences in good old germany.

I´ve been to America very often, long stays, and I have to disagree that americans somehow treat each other better. I really do think that europeans, especially when it comes to the use of guns, ARE FOR SURE more civilized than americans.

The fact that european countries take the guns they keep away from their people, and sell it to, f.e. Irak is, on the other hand for sure an uncivilized act of ingnorance and greed.

cheers
steve

Thanx for the kind words.

My intention, and maybe I am waaaaayyyy out there, is to challenge people here to come up with their own opinions instead of repeating what is being fed to them.

I hope this comes across to some...

Anyhoo...for European civility, please see Yugoslavia or all the minority police officers and small town officials here in Germany.

Go anywhere outside a major city here and tell them you are from Israel...

Free drinks all around....

Butt...

I was referring to just your everyday common civility...

Most places here on the continent people step on your dick and bum rush you constantly....

It happened to me twice today at the music store of all places....

Sorry a chick bum rushed me too...so three times...

Anyway, I don't give a shit or I would move.

It's just an observation.

And it was a response about civility....

But if you look at the last hundred years many more euros have died from gunfire than 'mericans...

So we're obviously in the same bucket...

Speaking of buckets...

Bier coming south...

variety pack...

tik

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