rankus wrote on Sun, 21 September 2008 13:31 |
I would say loosely defined as "College Rock" with a very "organic" and "real instruments" vibe. But confusingly also refering to "independent" acts as you note Bill. |
j.hall wrote on Mon, 22 September 2008 12:00 |
and it also denoted a "moral code" if you will. |
Fiasco wrote on Sun, 21 September 2008 16:26 |
While I agree with you Rankus, I consider bands like Skinny Puppy and Godflesh to be Indie, and they are hardly "organic". |
Fiasco wrote on Sun, 21 September 2008 19:22 |
I feel at the base, independent music should denote music that is trying to offer something outside of the norm. |
rankus wrote on Mon, 22 September 2008 19:20 | ||
Skinny Puppy is definitely not Indie... they bill themselves "Industrial". Godflesh list themselves as "Industrial Metal" |
rankus wrote on Mon, 22 September 2008 18:14 |
INDIE: While it's true that in the 90's the term indie meant "independent from a label" or an extension of the "alternative" movement, these days it is a defined musical genre. It defines a College Rock ethic that would have included bands like REM…. If they came out today, they would be pinned as “indie”.... |
rankus wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 17:47 |
I'm getting confused as to what to call that old genre these days, "grunge" perhaps? Damn kids/marketers are stealing our culture! |
j.hall wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 15:33 | ||
when i first heard the term "indie rock" (as noted in my previous post) it had VERY LITTLE to do with being independent and EVERYTHING to do with the "fabric of your life" and the "sound of your band" when "indie rock" was first being birthed some of the top bands to be placed in this "new sound" were: slint fugazi jawbox shudder to think polvo drive like jehu boys life giant's chair superchunk girls against boys jesus lizard aminiature rocket from the cript just to name a few..... chicago, DC, san diego, chapel hill, austin and to a lesser extent, KC. like i said, as some one deeply rooted in this scene when it was in it's hey day, it pretty much doesn't exist anymore outside of urban outfitters and a fairly established name for a genre of music consisting of bands that get college radio airplay. |
rankus wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 18:17 |
Ahh. Here in the northwest, in the 90's, Indie referred more to grunge rather than the hardcore scene... DOA, Pointed Sticks, etc. were referred to as hardcore punk in that era. An aside: Vancouver Hardcore is seeing quite a resurgence too... I just re-mastered two Death Sentence albums for release on Cargo... Many of those bands are bigger than ever. DOA just played the Commodore (1000 seats) on friday night and brought the house down... still rocking hard at 50... go Joey go! |
rankus wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 16:47 |
I agree with you J. Semantics aside, It is a term perverted away from it's origins. I think this is one of the main points of confusion with it's current meaning... (I was loosely describing the origins... I forget that everything is taken literally on the net) |
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Being in the Pacific Northwest I was heavily involved in that scene through the 90's myself. |
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Gotta love the English language. It's a moving target. |
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I suppose the bands you mention would be under the heading "Alternative" these days as noted in my post. Would you agree? I'm getting confused as to what to call that old genre these days, "grunge" perhaps? Damn kids/marketers are stealing our culture! |
Fiasco wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 17:01 | ||
I referred to the types of bands J referred to as "Hardcore". As in hardcore punk... ish. Not to be confused with what is considered hardcore today. Damn kids... |
j.hall wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 19:46 |
Alt Country |
rankus wrote on Mon, 22 September 2008 19:20 | ||
Skinny Puppy is definitely not Indie... they bill themselves "Industrial". Godflesh list themselves as "Industrial Metal" Both perhaps "independent" bands that should refer to their status as "unsigned" |
Bill_Urick wrote on Sun, 21 September 2008 08:40 |
I've always though it just meant an artist or music on an independent as opposed to a major label. It seems to also refer to a musical style, but I'm not sure what the definition or scope of that style might be. |
j.hall wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 22:40 | ||||
NO WAY. hardcore back then would have been: DOA slapshot suicidal tendencies sick of it all hardcore has actually changed very little. it's just gotten heavier in tone and a little watered down in politics. |
c17 wrote on Wed, 24 September 2008 15:42 | ||||
Well, Skinny Puppy were on Capitol Records in the US...hardly indie or unsigned. Godflesh I think had some major support or distribution at some point, but I can't remember exactly. |
0dbfs wrote on Wed, 24 September 2008 16:56 | ||
When they say F*** YOU! and mean it (doesn't really matter if they are signed or the style of music)? Cheers, j |
c17 wrote on Wed, 24 September 2008 14:42 |
Well, Skinny Puppy were on Capitol Records in the US...hardly indie or unsigned. Godflesh I think had some major support or distribution at some point, but I can't remember exactly. |
j.hall wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 19:46 |
from 90 - maybe 98 here is a short and incomplete list of the various genres punk rock gave birth too (some are sub categories of indie rock) that i heard, used, and was aware of. (i'm no authority on this matter, but i was intrenched pretty deeply back then) Indie Rock Emo (and all the various sub genres starting with "emo-") Sweater Rock Hardcore Shoe Gazer Grunge Alt Country Rockabilly add to this please. |
RSettee wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 15:51 |
I still say Guided By Voices and Pavement were the quintessential ones--you know, slacker culture, extremely lo-fi, kind of poppy, jangly. |
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The Jesus Lizard was much too abrasive and metallic to really be technically defined as "indie"....to a casual observer maybe they were, but even when they were tagged "alternative", that wasn't doing them justice. |
j.hall wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 13:33 |
when "indie rock" was first being birthed some of the top bands to be placed in this "new sound" were: slint fugazi jawbox shudder to think polvo drive like jehu boys life giant's chair superchunk girls against boys jesus lizard aminiature rocket from the cript just to name a few..... chicago, DC, san diego, chapel hill, austin and to a lesser extent, KC. |
Fiasco wrote on Wed, 24 September 2008 14:43 |
Perhaps I was quick to lump your initial band list into hardcore, but I definitely consider Fugazi and Jesus Lizard to be hardcore. |
Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 29 September 2008 04:07 | ||
I disagree on both counts ... Fugazi were (are) too smart to be limited by hardcore. Certainly one considers Minor Threat to be hardcore as well as the template for straight-edge, but their direct predecessor bands Embrace and Rites Of Spring (you can draw your "Emo" line directly back to both) had already discarded both the testosterone and the rigidity of hardcore aesthetics for something a lot more, well, interesting. The Lizard were just too mathy to be hardcore and the rhythm section was a lot more precise in their bone-crushing than any hardcore outfit. Mac didn't have to play at machine-gun speeds to kick your ass, and Duane's riffing was waay too fucking jazzy to be limited by the pejorative "hardcore." Yow, in his cowboy boots and jeans, was a much scarier frontman than any tattooed bald guy fronting a generic hardcore band. -a |
Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 29 September 2008 02:47 |
Those of us who saw them (and we had them in Hoboken like every four months it seemed, back in the day), the term that gave them justice was "The best fucking live rock and roll band you'll see." -a |
Fiasco wrote on Mon, 29 September 2008 03:26 | ||||
Well put. I suppose I never viewed hardcore as a "dumb" format. Of course, it was just my perspective. |
Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 29 September 2008 03:07 | ||
I disagree on both counts ... Fugazi were (are) too smart to be limited by hardcore. Certainly one considers Minor Threat to be hardcore as well as the template for straight-edge, but their direct predecessor bands Embrace and Rites Of Spring (you can draw your "Emo" line directly back to both) had already discarded both the testosterone and the rigidity of hardcore aesthetics for something a lot more, well, interesting. |
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The Lizard were just too mathy to be hardcore and the rhythm section was a lot more precise in their bone-crushing than any hardcore outfit. Mac didn't have to play at machine-gun speeds to kick your ass, and Duane's riffing was waay too fucking jazzy to be limited by the pejorative "hardcore." Yow, in his cowboy boots and jeans, was a much scarier frontman than any tattooed bald guy fronting a generic hardcore band. -a |
Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 29 September 2008 12:20 |
I'll now contradict myself ... there's a lot of hardcore that is not dumb. It just takes smart people to transcend its inherent limitations. I mean, for example, Jawbox, Jawbreaker, Die Kreuzen, Husker Du and arguably the Replacements all came from hardcore, learned its lessons and moved on. I suppose when you learn how to play your instrument, those limitations seem to melt away. -a |
RSettee wrote on Tue, 30 September 2008 17:39 | ||
The Replacements are a great example--I can't really listen to "Sorry Ma...", and thought that they got brilliant a few albums down the road when the sarcastic veneer of bored youth started to get old to them and wear off. Same thing with Husker Du (though I do very much listen to "Zen Arcade" and listen to "Metal Circus" and "Everything Falls Apart"), I can absolutely not listen to "Land Speed Record". |