Post by: breathe on July 03, 2009, 05:50:29 PM
Nicholas
Post by: breathe on July 03, 2009, 05:54:09 PM
Nicholas
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 03, 2009, 06:23:13 PM
I disagree with the "not bright enough" and "too bright to be" this or that. You never know what mics were used, or how it was mastered. I especially disagree with the idea that an API is brighter than the rest.
Post by: meverylame on July 03, 2009, 06:58:02 PM
| breathe wrote on Fri, 03 July 2009 17:50 |
What mixer was this album recorded/mixed on? It sounds API-ish. Not bright enough to be Quad Eight. Too bright to be a Neve. I want my next record to sound like 'BIB'. Nicholas |
Have you worked on ANY of the three consoles(not the mic pre) listed above?
Post by: maarvold on July 03, 2009, 11:49:28 PM
Post by: jimmyjazz on July 04, 2009, 02:56:21 AM
Post by: compasspnt on July 04, 2009, 07:50:17 AM
Recorded onto an MCI 2" 24 track (which I do still have in a back storage room).
Tony Platt engineered.
Post by: tom eaton on July 04, 2009, 08:26:15 AM
MCI console (probably a 636) into MCI tape deck. Okay?
The obvious point is that your records won't sound anything like Back in Black even if you used all the same gear. You'd have to use the same people.
tom
Post by: compasspnt on July 04, 2009, 10:06:11 AM
Killed the music.
Post by: Arf! Mastering on July 04, 2009, 12:04:49 PM
Post by: archtop on July 04, 2009, 12:30:31 PM
Post by: bigbone on July 04, 2009, 03:49:56 PM
| tom eaton wrote on Sat, 04 July 2009 08:26 |
The obvious point is that your records won't sound anything like Back in Black even if you used all the same gear. You'd have to use the same people. tom |
Wise advice, but not lot's of peoples understand that.............Talent will alway
talk louder than gear.
Post by: marcel on July 04, 2009, 05:58:22 PM
Perhaps it would be more worthwhile to ask yourself what it is (specifically) that you like about BIB and then spend some time learning how to get those results yourself. "I really love that guitar tone (or snare sound, or vocal effect), now how can I get close(r) to that with what I have here?"
I know I've learned a lot by doing this, and while the records I work on never end up sounding like those I hold up in my mind, at least the things I do as an engineer have some 'direction'. A small part of this is the gear I choose, without a doubt. A much larger part is what I choose to do with it.
Post by: breathe on July 04, 2009, 06:34:26 PM
I deeply apologize if I am contributing meaningless noise to this forum, I've been really bored the last few days doing mundane video work.
Best,
Nicholas
| meverylame wrote on Fri, 03 July 2009 15:58 | ||
Have you worked on ANY of the three consoles(not the mic pre) listed above? |
Post by: breathe on July 04, 2009, 06:38:10 PM
Nicholas
Post by: compasspnt on July 04, 2009, 07:13:31 PM
If you really want to know how to put together a killer recording, why not just ask someone who’s actually done it? Well, this month, that’s exactly what we’re doing — by calling upon one of the all-time wise men of the modern studio era, the U.K.’s legendary producer/engineer Tony Platt. It was 28 years ago that Platt entered the studio with a quintet of scruffy ex-Aussies named AC/DC and emerged six weeks later with Back in Black, for many the single-most essential hard-rock record of the modern era. Like most milestone efforts, Back in Black had little to do with pop trends of the time (which, in 1980, was all about skinny ties and Farfisa organs). Instead, with Back in Black, AC/DC — guitarists Angus and Malcolm Young, bassist Cliff Williams, drummer Phil Rudd and vocalist Brian Johnson — delivered a set of ironclad songs that were stripped to the bone, jacked up at the bottom and outfitted with some of the most tastefully lean guitar accompaniment on record.
To help the band achieve its multi-platinum apex, Platt, an engineer of impeccable good taste, utilized a handful of tried-and-true recording techniques, including clever miking, skillful mixing, allowing for maximum room sound while keeping processing to a minimum. It’s the kind of stuff even we mere mortals can benefit from today.
Back in Black marked a turning point in AC/DC’s career. Highway to Hell, issued a year earlier, had finally pushed the group into platinum territory. But, as the band was pulling together material for the all-important follow-up, in February 1980 original vocalist Bon Scott died, and the band’s future seemed uncertain. Determined to push on in spite of the circumstances, in March the group hired Newcastle-based vocalist Brian Johnson to fill Scott’s shoes, then immediately began rehearsing at London’s E’Zee Hire Studios. As a diversion, that May the group repaired to the tropical surroundings of sunny Nassau and the newly constructed Compass Point Studios, where they were joined by producer Robert John “Mutt” Lange, an unlikely ally whose ear for slick pop nevertheless lent a subtle but essential mainstream sensibility to the proceedings. There, the group prepared to cut tracks for their forthcoming Atco effort, Back in Black.
With AC/DC, it had always been about the riff — and on Back in Black, there would be plenty of them: “Hells Bells,” “Shoot to Thrill,” “You Shook Me” (eventually the band’s first Top 40 hit) and the unrelenting title track featured the dynamic interplay between Angus’ right-channel SG lead and brother Malcolm’s left-channel Gretsch rhythm. From his control-room vantage point, Platt realized the sound he was after was already coming through the monitors; processing and other add-ons would be purposely left off the rhythm tracks. “We all had a good idea of how we wanted it to sound right from the start,” says Platt, “and so our goal was to get it on tape there, rather than leaving it for the final mix. Being restricted to 24 tracks meant that a lot of the decisions would be made early on, which also added to the feeling of immediacy. But most off all, they just played it like it is! There was hardly any patching required — we’d just cut takes until we had a nice balance of perfection and feel.”
As so often happens, on Back in Black the make-up of the studio itself helped determine the recording dynamics. “The set up and approach was quite different from Highway,” notes Platt, who’d come aboard during the mix phase of the previous album. “Highway had been recorded in a very dead studio, so much so that during mixing I’d fed various parts back through the speakers and into the studio, recording the result for extra ambience. So when it came time to do Back in Black, the idea was to get that ambience on tape right from the start. The room at Compass Point was fairly large but had a somewhat low-ish ceiling, which concerned me a little at first, as I didn’t want the room to compress the sound. We spent some time choosing the right position for the drums by hitting a snare in various parts of the room. I discovered a ‘sweet spot’ where the snare suddenly sounded bigger, deeper, fuller and most important, snappier. I subsequently discovered that there was a void above this position that was obviously allowing the sound to rise without choking it!”
For Angus’ solo tracks (which were overdubbed), Platt employed two stacks, one in the main room and another in a live chamber at the far end of the building. “We used Angus’s radios to transmit to these amps,” says Platt. “The radios actually proved to be quite an important part of the sound, as they added some mid bite. I used two Neumann U67s on each cabinet, so I could pan the result where I wanted. And absolutely no compression was used at all.”
Despite the volume at hand, Platt encouraged leakage in order to maintain the ambient element. “We kept Cliff’s bass in a separate booth so that Angus and Malcolm’s guitars could really bleed into the room,” says Platt. “There was some screening over the amps, but it was minimal. For Phil drums, I kept several room mics up at all times, which I would move around depending on the effect I wanted to achieve. But really, it was mainly just tuning the drums carefully to get the sound as close to where we wanted it, with the overheads providing most of the texture.”
For newcomer Johnson, cutting vocal parts worthy of his predecessor was only half the battle; crafting lyrics that fit the AC/DC sex/rock/mayhem mold turned out to be the most daunting task of the entire six-week affair. “Because the lyrics were written as we went along, all of Brian’s vocals were overdubs,” says Platt. “But that turned out to be for the best anyway, as one of Mutt’s finest attributes as a producer is his ability to enable the singer to perform to the best of his abilities.”
Mixing for the album took place at Electric Lady Studios in New York shortly after the sessions were completed. “The size of the sound is really a combination of things,” says Platt. “The tuning is good, the arrangements are spacious, the recording isn’t heavily processed, aside from some subtle addition of delays and light reverb just for extra ambience. I remember we also monitored quietly so we could balance carefully.”
Coming off years of synthesized disco and overproduced AOR, Back in Black proved once again the resilience of live, loud and melodic rock, and listeners immediately responded. At 42 million and counting, today the band’s seventh major-label release ranks as the second best-selling album of all time.
“Probably the biggest buzz I’ve ever had during my time in the business was walking into Madison Square Garden one evening and hearing Back in Black coming over the house P.A.,” notes Platt. “The engineer told me he always used that album to run up a P.A., because if it sounded good with Back in Black playing, then he knew he had it! I can’t think of a better endorsement than that.”
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on July 04, 2009, 10:53:27 PM
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 04, 2009, 11:28:49 PM
Post by: trock on July 05, 2009, 12:46:03 PM
why would they mix it somewhere else?? wouldn't it make more sense to mix it right at compass point, in a studio they were used to?
Post by: breathe on July 05, 2009, 01:16:39 PM
n.
| compasspnt wrote on Sat, 04 July 2009 04:50 |
All recording, including tracking and overdubbing, was done here at Compass Point in our A studio through an MCI desk (long gone now, replaced by Neve V3 in about '86). Recorded onto an MCI 2" 24 track (which I do still have in a back storage room). Tony Platt engineered. |
Post by: breathe on July 05, 2009, 01:19:29 PM
This record rocks!
n.
| Arf! Mastering wrote on Sat, 04 July 2009 09:04 |
Mixed off a Studer A800 (x2 IIRC) through a Neve 8078 console at Electric Lady studio A. |
Post by: marcel on July 05, 2009, 01:23:50 PM
| breathe wrote on Sun, 05 July 2009 10:19 |
I totally absolve the Neve 8000 series of all sins of muddiness. |
Good to know you approve!
You should drop the bucks one day and mix something on one of these desks, it may change your life.
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 05, 2009, 01:40:14 PM
| breathe wrote on Sun, 05 July 2009 10:19 |
Sorry for getting to these responses late. If this post is true then I totally absolve the Neve 8000 series of all sins of muddiness. |
Phew! Thank god that's resolved.
Now we can go back to using Neves with your approval!
Post by: breathe on July 05, 2009, 02:00:25 PM
n.
| J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 05 July 2009 10:40 | ||
Phew! Thank god that's resolved. Now we can go back to using Neves with your approval! |
Post by: seedyunderbelly.com on July 05, 2009, 06:21:19 PM
Yeah good thing BIB wasn't a pt record it would have ruined it from the greatest selling record of all time to shite in a slew of digits. Man they are lucky
Post by: breathe on July 09, 2009, 11:18:30 PM
Nicholas
Post by: trock on July 10, 2009, 08:34:40 AM
1) you absolutely have to crank this album, you cannot listen to it at low volume. impossible
2) everything in the song is clear, every part
3) mutt produced ac/dc better than anyone, its not even close
4) brians voice circa 1980-85 or so was the absolute best straight ahead rock voice, bar none, not even close
5) the songs and album hold up really really well, timeless, 29 years later
This is the album that changed my life about music, i was 13 the summer it came out, bought the album and cassette and played the cassette in a giant boom box. i have re bought it at least a dozen times over the years, i wore out the cassette's many time over.
Oh and one other memory, REO released an album that year to that was huge, i remember alot of the girls loved that and the guys loved BIB
Post by: eric_hedford on July 10, 2009, 09:55:18 PM
Needed some brick wall limiting. Not.
Post by: Ryan Slowey on July 11, 2009, 01:51:28 PM
Post by: compasspnt on July 11, 2009, 02:12:19 PM
Somewhere on PSW I once posted an actual equipment list from a subsequent album they did here, as found in our files.
EDIT: Well, can't find that list right now, but here is another cool BIB thread:
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/9856/0/0/6 490/
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 11, 2009, 05:00:53 PM
The record does not sound like a 4x12, to me. It does not have that standing wave that I hear on a closed back cabinet. And it certainly does not sound like JCM800. The distortion is too natural and farty to be a JCM.
The amazing thing about these records is I always feel like I can hear the mahogany in Angus' guitar. If you've played enough old Gibson SGs and LP juniors and specials, as I have, you become very familiar with the resonance and overtone of these guitars. It's totally in the wood. It's so light and porous. As a finish carpenter, I've done my whole home in mahogany, and it really has such a completely different feel and resonance from the other woods typically used in guitar making. It also absorbs lacquer so much more deeply than other woods, because of its porousness.
One of my complaints with JCMs has always been that it does not matter if you're playing a Gibson or a Charvel, it's going to sound pretty much the same, because the overdrive of that amp is such a dominant characteristic. It just eats up so many of the natural overtones of the guitar. That to me is another big clue that this is not the JCM amp, because I can hear the mahogany.
Feel free to flame away at these assertions, but that's the only way to describe what I'm hearing.
Post by: compasspnt on July 11, 2009, 06:24:00 PM
I went through some old files here, and didn't yet locate anything from "Back In Black," but I did find what gear AC/DC brought with them here for tracking during 1985-86, produced by George Young.
Here is an excerpt from the equipment list:
2 Marshall 200 watt heads
23 Marshall 100 watt heads
1 Marshall 50 watt head
3 Marshall 50 watt Combos
1 Marshall 8 x 10" cabinet
10 Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets
2 Ampeg 300 watt Bass heads
1 Crate Amp
7 Gibson SG guitars
1 Epiphone SG guitar
1 Gibson Firebird Gitar
1 Pink ESP Strat guitar
1 Gibson "Custom" guitar
1 Gibson Dove guitar
2 JD Custom Firebird guitars
1 Gretsch Roc Jet guitar
1 Gretsch Firebird guitar [?]
1 Squire P bass
1 Fender P bass
1 Williams Custom bass
1 Sonar drum kit w/2 Sonar snares
2 Gretsch snares
There was also lots of the normal little stuff, leads, etc.
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/9749/0/0/6 490/
Post by: leonardo valvassori on July 11, 2009, 08:18:19 PM
We have a Marshall 8x10 cab here:--it needs a little love, but boy it's got shall we say 'a lot' of everything.
As an aside, we also have a one of those rarely seen Marshall slant 4x12 same size as the 8x10 that sounds deadly:--projects wonderfully and has a tighter lowend then a regular 4x12. With a 'Paul and a Plexi a very dry Paul Kossof kind of tone.
I too love mahogany:--my T-Bird is all mahogany and my Wal basses have mahogany cores.
I just love amps and instruments. More than recording gear.
Post by: trock on July 11, 2009, 10:31:25 PM
Was Chris Blackwell around when BIB was recorded? just wondering if he came by to visit or might have been around then? and i know it was mutt and Tony but who was the house engineer at the time?
Have you ever come across any pics of the sessions?
I know Mutt doesn't do interviews but have you ever been able to discuss the session with AC/DC with him?
thanks!
Post by: marcel on July 11, 2009, 11:42:08 PM
| compasspnt wrote on Sat, 11 July 2009 15:24 |
23 Marshall 100 watt heads |
Really? You'd think a guy could narrow it down a little...
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 12, 2009, 06:42:23 PM
Post by: trock on July 12, 2009, 07:26:56 PM
Post by: MagnetoSound on July 13, 2009, 07:49:40 AM
Someone is missing from this thread. Anyone in Winnipeg know the score?
Post by: wwittman on July 15, 2009, 08:20:23 PM
I'm not nearly that obsessive (or patient!) but I know from my own experience that we had to have 6 or 8 heads sent from the factory in Milton Keynes to us in London for the second Outfield record, just trying to find two that sounded close to ALIKE, let alone extraordinary.
So 85 different ones doesn't surprise me in some ways.
Post by: marcel on July 15, 2009, 09:58:53 PM
| MagnetoSound wrote on Mon, 13 July 2009 04:49 |
Someone is missing from this thread. Anyone in Winnipeg know the score? |
Yeah, absurdly long posts or not, I've been wondering about that guy.
Maybe he's busy auditioning Marshall heads...
Anybody know?
Post by: cgc on July 15, 2009, 10:53:23 PM
Post by: jetbase on July 15, 2009, 11:05:17 PM
| cgc wrote on Thu, 16 July 2009 12:53 |
That one Crate amp made all the difference. The Marshall's are just for show, behind the scenes there is one 1x12 practice amp delivering those killer tones. |
Maybe it was actually an amp crate. They had to get all those amps there somehow!
Post by: Strummer on July 16, 2009, 01:13:47 AM
| marcel wrote on Wed, 15 July 2009 21:58 | ||
Yeah, absurdly long posts or not, I've been wondering about that guy. Maybe he's busy auditioning Marshall heads... Anybody know? |
No posts or visits since May. He was seriously discouraged, looking at his member page isn't cheery.
I hope he's okay.
Post by: rankus on July 17, 2009, 01:56:02 PM
| Strummer wrote on Wed, 15 July 2009 22:13 | ||||
No posts or visits since May. He was seriously discouraged, looking at his member page isn't cheery. I hope he's okay. |
Me too
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 17, 2009, 03:49:39 PM
Post by: MagnetoSound on July 17, 2009, 06:03:42 PM
| Strummer wrote on Thu, 16 July 2009 06:13 |
I hope he's okay. |
Yeah that was my thought too.
Post by: kats on July 18, 2009, 10:47:34 PM
http://uniter.ca/view/949/
Post by: MagnetoSound on July 19, 2009, 05:43:25 AM
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 20, 2009, 02:22:57 AM
"Ryan Settee likes to keep music as a hobby..."
Nothing wrong with being a hobbyist, but if you think about the lectures that a few of us professionals had to endure, it does sort of put it all in perspective.
Just sayin'.
Post by: MagnetoSound on July 20, 2009, 06:50:10 AM
Well, I have to agree ... I admit, a lot of times I wouldn't read all of his post if it was longer than a paragraph or two - and some of 'em were real dissertations - because I did find them somewhat doggedly on the negative side.
But I'm glad he's still out there doing his thing - and again, sorry for derailing this thread!
Post by: Nicky D on July 20, 2009, 11:44:46 PM
| breathe wrote on Sat, 04 July 2009 17:38 |
I will also say that I think Butch Vig's Neve mix of 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' sounds like mud. Nicholas |
c'mon now...even though it's a great song from a great band...that is a killer mix...very effective and exciting...that ,Nicholas, is not easy to achieve or retain when mixing a record. That's the shit that separates the men from the boys.....
I'm just one of the boys...for now.
Post by: leonardo valvassori on July 22, 2009, 12:51:18 AM
| J.J. Blair wrote on Mon, 20 July 2009 02:22 |
I hate to pile on here, but this sentence kinda says it all: "Ryan Settee likes to keep music as a hobby..." Nothing wrong with being a hobbyist, but if you think about the lectures that a few of us professionals had to endure, it does sort of put it all in perspective. Just sayin'. |
Yeah, Ryan I think, is a slightly misanthropic self-appointed musicologist musing in the wrong forum. Many of you were very patient and I was impressed he wasn't just chased away.
He seems to have evaporated;--maybe there was an awakening of some sort...or just carpal tunnel from verbose over-posting.
It takes a lot of balls to put your dick out on THIS (the only one I have ever joined) forum;--what convinced me to risk castration and post was the vast amount of knowledge that I could not believe was being shared, and I like knowledge. Alot.
Made a few new friends too.
And to get back on topic, it sort of amazes me when Terry tells us that a paradigm recording such as Back in Black, a recording that garners continuous curiosity, was made on gear a lot of people around here don't like.
I think all of us are really here because we love music, and when that ceases to be the driving force behind this forum then I too will evaporate.
Just sayin'
BTW:--speaking of gone, where's Brian Kehew?
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 22, 2009, 07:22:41 AM
Post by: trock on July 22, 2009, 10:37:36 AM
of course
that being said i think i realized something a while ago about this place. it truly is the best technical, in depth forum, around for gear, tests, knowledge, acoustics, recording techniques, etc etc etc
i read and read and read, i applied what i could understand....
and then it hit me. i don't really give anything back, there is nothing i know or do that is going to surprise or enlighten anyone here (this is not a woe is me at all) and then i decided what i could do was not post inane questions or comments like "greatest solo of all time" because this really isn't what this place is about
out of respect for people's time and knowledge I pretty much stopped posting because i don't want to get in the way of alot of the discussions going on that seem to truly help those who are Engineers/Producers, in whatever capacity.
I am nothing more than a songwriter, as a hobby, who wanted to try and make his home grown CD's sound better.
and i learned that in spades here.
I learned 2 things in particular that have changed how i record
- low levels
- LCR
and its made a world of diff, the rest for me is about how great the song is i am writing. Low levels and LCR, and my ear, however good or bad is truly all i need. i won't be buying consoles, or tons of mics, or even charging anyone to record in my cramped room.
i dig reading stuff here, and other places, and i found a pretty good songwriting forum, and thats actually the place i belong.
so when i read about some really great people like brian or whomever not coming here anymore i kinda think its because of, well, people like me tangling up the airwaves here.
i wish i could add something or help here, but like i said i don't bring anything to this particular table
what i can do is say thanks, a ton, to all people who took their time and shared their knowledge with me. what i can offer is its made a difference, a lot, in my recordings and for that i am TRULY grateful. hopefully you will know your time wasn't wasted
and the length of this post is dedicated to ryan
Post by: compasspnt on July 22, 2009, 10:45:12 AM
We need to remember that for each and every person that posts here, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of others reading, people that never join in at all.
Many questions answered here will help (or hinder) thousands of other people "out there."
I'm sure nothing you ever said would have driven someone like BK away.
But I do applaud your thought process of keeping posts to the truly deserving ones.
Post by: J.J. Blair on July 22, 2009, 12:08:55 PM
The grief factor I speak of had to do with arguments and the unkind words that we sometimes resort to, not anybody trying to learn more. Brian loves sharing info with people, and I'm sure he misses that aspect.
Post by: Rowdi on October 02, 2009, 04:23:32 PM
The worst sounding and in terms of feel are the post Powerage pre Fly on the Wall in terms of capturing the essence of that band. The slump started on Highway to Hell great songs horrible sounding record the vanda/young records sounded much much better(my personal faves), as did the records after mutt lange.
Mutt Lange may have been the best producer for AC/DC in terms of marketing and making their sound comfortable for the average radio listener,
but from a stylist and vibe point i think he was terrible and the worst. He was very successful at hitting the MOR market frankly there was no edge in anything he did
Don’t get me wrong he obviously knew his way around the console and how to entertain your average listener who was into Reo Speedwagon and he also made the band some well deserved cash but the production is just wrong in so many ways.
The first improvement and interesting sounding album was Fly On The Wall which was quite dark and things got better after that.
The only thing I would add as a caveat is that we will never know if Vanda/Young production would have got the best out of Brians voice it probably would have but we’ll never know
Post by: compasspnt on October 02, 2009, 05:04:44 PM
Post by: J.J. Blair on October 02, 2009, 05:17:46 PM
Post by: maarvold on October 03, 2009, 03:25:22 AM
| Rowdi wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 13:23 |
...but the production is just wrong in so many ways... |
"If lovin' you is wrong
I don' wanna be right".
Post by: kats on October 03, 2009, 09:35:49 AM
| Rowdi wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 15:23 |
Great songs dont like the production |
Interesting POV. Can you get into more detail? From my perspective, I didn't hear much "production" sonically. IE, no gimmickry etc. I did hear really good engineering and mixing chops that did not ever step on the toes of the band.
I do think BIB sounds more polished than some of their older attempts - but I think it simply came down to more experienced engineering and nothing to do with a producer [over]imposing his will on the artist.
Post by: jimmyjazz on October 03, 2009, 06:01:41 PM
Post by: Rowdi on October 03, 2009, 06:25:02 PM
Its not gimmickry I’m referring to as such im sure technically every box is ticked in terms of production etc that im not disputing. And im sure he had a vision etc…
With all due respect I would disagree with you on the idea that the producer did not impose himself on the band, on the contrary this indeed is the issue here he did over impose himself on the band on the records, to the detriment of the sound. I was never a def leppard fan but when I heard their records around the time it was clearly a mutt lange record. He is a very noticeable/visible producer and what he does works in certain context but didn’t in this.
As I said in my previous post Highway to Hell and Back in Black and For Those About To Rock(I must stress have great tunes).I think the dirt was taken out of them to sell them to US radio.
Its just a shame that some of the post lange albums (which sound better) though containing some great tunes aren’t out right classics, I feel I have been cheated out of 3 great records by the production.
The early albums especially are some of the most beautiful sounding records, you can feel the sweat and every song sounds majestic. Please go back and listen to the pre lange albums and post lange albums and really really absorb them, get drunk to them etc…….a/b them with the lange records and see the loss of vibe,spirit,etc.
Post by: Rowdi on October 03, 2009, 06:26:20 PM
Post by: jimmyjazz on October 03, 2009, 06:30:20 PM
| Rowdi wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 17:26 |
thats fair enough jimmy jazz |
No big deal, right? I like Sting and Steely Dan, too, and they're not exactly embraced around here. (Then again, my two faves are The Replacements and The Clash, so I guess production or lack thereof might not matter all that much to me in the end.)
Post by: Rowdi on October 03, 2009, 06:38:21 PM
Post by: compasspnt on October 03, 2009, 06:39:05 PM
And I would also posit that there is a very good reason H2H and BIB especially, as well as FTA2R, are such absolutely huge, giant selling, well-respected classics, whereas a couple of post-Mutt ones are generally considered "lesser," at least relative to the Acadac world.
(In fact, in a couple of ore years, BIB will become the largest selling album of all recorded history...not too shabby...and that doesn't happen without a reason.)
I think Mutt really just captured the absolute raw essence of perfection that the band were...and, as much as I love almost all of their output, and most certainly the early ones included, I think H2H and BIB are the zenith of their sound, production, songs...everything.
But I do have to do a disclaimer of sorts, in that I know Mutt well, have worked with him a lot, and know full well firsthand of his amazing musical talents and concentration abilities...not to mention that I am here at Compass Point, and was actually hired to produce the band once, post Mutt (but had to decline because of schedule).
Of course, had I done that record, it would have been the absolute best ever...
Post by: Rowdi on October 03, 2009, 06:57:31 PM
It may become the biggest selling album etc and i really hope it does because it AC/DC.
i feel in terms of their output there are better candidates for top selling albums in their catalogue production wise
OK forget the post lange records goto the pre lange records, the production captures the songs and the feel much much better
As you are a friend of his i hope i didnt offend you in any way and this is only my opinion. Im sure he is very good at what he does and frankly his sales figures and in demand he was mean he must have been doing something right.
I just dont feel what he did worked for ac/dc (im not talking radio play here), but i would in no way begrudge them making money
Post by: jimmyjazz on October 03, 2009, 07:01:00 PM
Post by: Rowdi on October 03, 2009, 07:07:17 PM
Post by: compasspnt on October 03, 2009, 07:35:05 PM
I just think Mutt did his best work on AC/DC, and they did their best work with him.
That's all.
Everyone has their own opinion.
Post by: Rowdi on October 03, 2009, 07:38:50 PM
enjoyed the debare man
Post by: kats on October 03, 2009, 09:58:26 PM
| Rowdi wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 17:25 |
Please go back and listen to the pre lange albums and post lange albums and really really absorb them, get drunk to them etc…….a/b them with the lange records and see the loss of vibe,spirit,etc. |
I know exactly the sound you refer to and exactly what you mean. I too think it was great and was always careful to make sure my mom never heard it - she would have freaked!
But the thing is that bands choose/change their producer because *they* want a change of pace, because *they* are themselves changing. Perhaps what your hearing in BIB is exactly what AC/DC was about in 1979/80.
Post by: compasspnt on October 03, 2009, 11:13:14 PM
| kats wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 21:58 |
Perhaps what your're hearing in BIB is exactly what AC/DC was about in 1979/80. |
Yes, exactly.
Post by: Rowdi on October 04, 2009, 08:07:22 AM
Your probably right HTH,BIB,FTATR are a reflection of where the band where at that time and what there aim was etc, and i fully understand that bands evolve.
Sonically for me mutt lange made them worse, but then I have never liked the sound of anything he has produced i may like the snare or the bass or what ever but overall his work has never done it for me
Still, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one gents!
Post by: maarvold on October 04, 2009, 11:15:01 AM
| compasspnt wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 15:39 |
I think Mutt really just captured the absolute raw essence of perfection that the band were... |
I didn't know ACDC, except for hearing "You Shook Me All Night Long" on the radio maybe a dozen times. At the time I was playing in a rock band and the other guitarist called me and said, "Hey, I have tickets to see ACDC tonight". The tickets were for the Back In Black tour, 7th row center, Orpheum Theater, Boston. It was maybe the most shockingly good, powerful concert I have ever seen (and I've seen a buttload of them). From the first moments, everyone in the place was standing on their chair and going nuts the entire time. I can still clearly, in my mind's eye, see the simple, effective stage setup and Malcolm and Phil(?) in their horizontal stripe, black and teal surfer shirts on opposite sides of the stage, the drummer in the back, banging it out in his white t-shirt and jeans--cigarette pack rolled up in his sleeve, Angus in his dark green velvet 'Little Lord Fauntleroy' suit, alternately running and spinning and duckwalking like a juvenile [Warner Brothers] Tazmanian Devil with limitless energy. I don't remember the singer quite as clearly--jeans and white t-shirt I think, with Angus on his shoulders some of the time, Master/Blaster style. But I do remember wondering how anyone could sing like that for more than 2 minutes without destroying their voice. The whole thing was just mind-blowing in its power and outrageousness.
When I hear BIB, I feel all that raw, 'wrecking machine' energy just like I did at the concert. I just feel like that's what they were doing at that time, captured in a 3 dimensional 'snapshot' on BIB. I don't know what else I would want from a record.
P.S., I spent a lot of time describing the visual aspects--believe me I remember the AMAZING sound the band made (and the songs) just as clearly. When I left the theater, I fully believed they would be the biggest band in the world. It was that good.
Post by: compasspnt on October 04, 2009, 01:52:25 PM
And that album ends up outselling "White Christmas," "Thriller," all individual Beatles albums...and everything else.
Raw power controlled just right.
In the best sounding room there is.
Post by: Jonah A. Kort on October 04, 2009, 02:29:45 PM
| breathe wrote on Sat, 04 July 2009 17:38 |
I will also say that I think Butch Vig's Neve mix of 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' sounds like mud. Nicholas |
Maybe he should have mixed it on a Control24!
Maybe he should have just given up and let you track and mix the
whole record for him! Because clearly he didn't know what he was
doing because he didn't have lowmids together (Nick I think you
have a lowmid bump is your ear!)
Anyways, the production on that record murders!
-jonah
Post by: jimmyjazz on October 04, 2009, 04:31:15 PM
Post by: Jonah A. Kort on October 04, 2009, 06:56:38 PM
| jimmyjazz wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 15:31 |
What mix are you referring to? I thought Andy Wallace mixed that record. |
You're right, you're right! I haven't listened to or looked at
that album in years! It is a Wallace mix!
Sorry! Just statements like breathes about "Neve mix resulting
mud, even though the record is rock solid and not even have the
facts straight" keep me up at night wondering what the fuck
they're talking about! Not that I know what I'm talking about! I
just like carefully pointing microphones at things and
documenting the results!
::rant disconnected::
Post by: trock on October 05, 2009, 12:11:27 PM
that being said, what a great topic! they are and have been my fav band for 30 years now (just saw them on this tour again) i have had every album, cassette, CD, DVD they have put out, numerous times over the years so i sort of feel compelled to add my 2 cents
for me, i think Mutt made ac/dc raw AND clear, and just about perfect (for me, caveat is the guitar sounds on FTATR).
i have compared pre mutt and after mutt albums with the mutt ones many many times and i still come to that conclusion.
so here are some bullet points IMHO
- pre mutt albums are raw but i think the sonics are lacking, i have never really liked what vanda and young did with the band in terms of the overall sound. to me its just not as clear (vocals, guitars, drums etc all meshing)
- after mutt albums are hit and miss for me. i like razors edge alot, and i like the new one to. however fly on the wall ESPECIALLY sounds bad, awash in some weird effect on vocals, drums sound terrible, and overall i think its the worst sounding album of theirs
- i think flick has some great songs and i have ALWAYS wished Mutt would have done it, i think its a prime example of Brian still in his prime with some great songs, then recorded and just not sounding ok at best (the band produced this and Fly and it shows)
- i have no idea how much Mutt changed or added to the song structures themselves but i feel all 3 of his albums put forth the strongest, catchiest songs of any of their albums. i truly feel he brought ALOT to the table as a partner in songwriting, not just sonics
- i do feel mutt had an edge with the band, in that Bon and they were peaking on HTH, and Brian was at his best when mutt worked with them. plus they were young and hungry still. the emotion of Bon's death just shines thru on BIB. everyone before and after mutt i FEEL had an inferior band and songs to work with.
- i also believe that the band was perfect and great for mutt as well as he being for them. not sure how they got along but i think that was the BEST producer/band team up of all time.
- for me, brians voice peaked with mutt, and was OK thru about 85. i have always wondered what MUTT would do with Brian now? could he have brought forth a great vocal again at this stage? some of the post mutt albums make me cringe when i hear Brian (and i truly love his vocal)
- of the 3 mutt albums i think the guitars on HTH and BIB are really good. FTATR though i didn't like the guitar sounds at all, there was a def change that i hear and didn't like.
- i think powerage is the best pre mutt album, sound and song wise
- i think Razors edge is the best post mutt album, song and sound wise, although Black Ice sounds really good, the songs just aren't that great to me
wow, sorry i am just blasting this out, its to long already
to summarize
i think AC/DC and Mutt both met and hit in their prime, like a force of nature, they both nailed it together on 3 albums and literally changed rock n roll.
* i think mutt got sort of lazy (hate to say it) later with Bryan Adams, there was a song he did with Bryan that the backup vocals sound exactly like Def Leppard, and when i heard that i though hmmmm he just recycled what he does. that was disappointing for me cause i love A LOT of mutt albums that are not ac/dc
* i think mutt DEFINED the 80's sound and was/is good enough to still be extremely relevant today (with shania, nickelback etc) he always surprises me with his arrangements and sound. its always clear to me, no matter how much is going on
with Brian retiring soon (read that somewhere) i am bummed that they won't work again. Black Ice should have been Mutt at compass point and i think it would have been a great swan song for them.
Post by: Nizzle on October 05, 2009, 12:48:38 PM
| compasspnt wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 10:52 |
In the best sounding room there is. |
You just had to throw in a plug, didn't ya!
Post by: compasspnt on October 05, 2009, 04:04:16 PM
Every single day I am amazed by that room, and excited to even be near it.
Post by: Rowdi on October 07, 2009, 03:12:50 PM
I like ur dedication im the same
Post by: mdbeh on October 07, 2009, 03:59:30 PM
| Jonah A. Kort wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 17:56 |
You're right, you're right! I haven't listened to or looked at that album in years! It is a Wallace mix! |
Hey... at least you knew a person mixed it, and not a piece of equipment.
Post by: marcel on October 08, 2009, 11:31:18 PM
| Jonah A. Kort wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 15:56 | ||
You're right, you're right! I haven't listened to or looked at that album in years! It is a Wallace mix! |
Butch Vig did mix (or start to mix, I don't know if it was ever completed) that album before it was turned over to Wallace. Perhaps Nicholas has heard the results of these sessions somewhere...
But yes, I think sounding 'muddy' when compared to an Andy Wallace mix has little to do with equipment and everything to do with Wallace's razor sharp sonic signature.
Post by: trock on October 09, 2009, 07:48:14 PM
have you noticed that on these 3 albums almost EVERY song is catchy, clear, raw and just about the perfect 3 minute or so rock song? even the non hits truly rock. these are those rare albums where you buy it for one or 2 songs and are pleasantly surprised when 8-10 of the songs are great
i think you have a band that write the catchiest riffs, coupled with the producer who probably hears not only the sound in his head but where the riff and melody should go to, and he knows how to get it there. of course credit is due to the studio, and engineers and all who contributed
i can just picture Malcolm with a riff and Brian or bon with a melody, and mutt going "yeah, now try this and this to" and bam! classic song
or so i would like to believe
Post by: kats on October 09, 2009, 08:51:12 PM
| trock wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 18:48 |
even the non hits truly rock. these are those rare albums where you buy it for one or 2 songs and are pleasantly surprised when 8-10 of the songs are great |
HAHA!
Today I just finished building a sweet sweet JTM 45 from scratch. GEC Kt66's, Mullards, mustards, the whole shebang. I plug in my trusty LP and what's the first song I play -
"Shot Down In Flames"
And there it was...
Oh yeah man, those tunes rocked. Singles/Hits? Only because they had to say so.
Post by: compasspnt on October 09, 2009, 11:25:50 PM
Post by: Rowdi on October 10, 2009, 06:37:10 AM
Post by: trock on October 10, 2009, 07:59:21 AM
Shake a leg
Evil walks
3 of my favs, one off each, non hits, totally rock
lets compare something
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa1R09SjS8E
IMHO, one of the best songs of BIB, to me, clear, raw, hits you like a 2x4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhhk80u0HH8&feature=PlayL ist&p=FC8D858DA6269168&index=7
IMHO the best song off flick.
while bedlam is a great song, to me it lacks the clarity and um "fullness"?? of the stuff on BIB, but its a good enough song to be on BIB
so you have a great song, in a great studio, same engineer even. what has changed?? to me, mutt is gone.
I also would like to say that not only Mutt with HTH, but also Terry's work with Rhino Bucket have shown me what a great sound all those early albums could have had. I had thought HTH with Bon was a rare exception of what the band could sound like with Bon. Then i heard the Rhino Bucket stuff Terry had done and i was again blown away by how clear and raw that sound could be.
I am really not slagging Vanda and young, i am just a fan and have no idea what tools they had to work with, budget, time, or what the technology was then, or even if the band wanted it that way. i truly love all those albums to, so i hope this isn't coming off as a slam, its really just my observation and taste.
wow, i could do this all day. i will bow out now
Post by: kats on October 11, 2009, 05:40:30 PM
Post by: trock on October 11, 2009, 07:39:57 PM
great sounding guitar. actually that song stands out to me as one of the best from vanda and young.
most of powerage is really good to.
let there be rock is a GREAT album but i am not enamored with the guitar sounds on it
DDDDC and High Voltage to me are clearer.
if you want blood is a great live album though
i don't know, i just think with mutt ALL the parts fell into place, whereas before and after some of the parts did but usually not all
Post by: Rowdi on October 14, 2009, 05:09:01 PM
Ive gone back and listened to everything guys from start and im up to fly on the wall.
Gotta say the the vanda/young albums still sound better to me, the mutt albums sound lightweight in my opinion
'who made who' then 'blow up' next
ill get back to you
Post by: trock on October 14, 2009, 05:23:33 PM
this is fun
i wonder if the fact that the mutt albums have been played so much over the years that we are just over saturated with that sound so anything a little different may sound better??
Post by: trock on October 14, 2009, 05:26:50 PM
off the top of my head
ruff stuff is a great song off blow up your video!
the instrumentals are great off who made who. i like who made who also, but again, for me, great song, without great production
Post by: Rowdi on October 14, 2009, 06:05:35 PM
i havent listened to who made who for years, just put it on my ipod for tomorrow
Post by: RSettee on September 29, 2010, 06:51:31 PM
| leonardo valvassori wrote on Tue, 21 July 2009 23:51 | ||
Yeah, Ryan I think, is a slightly misanthropic self-appointed musicologist musing in the wrong forum. Many of you were very patient and I was impressed he wasn't just chased away. He seems to have evaporated;--maybe there was an awakening of some sort...or just carpal tunnel from verbose over-posting. It takes a lot of balls to put your dick out on THIS (the only one I have ever joined) forum;--what convinced me to risk castration and post was the vast amount of knowledge that I could not believe was being shared, and I like knowledge. Alot. Made a few new friends too. And to get back on topic, it sort of amazes me when Terry tells us that a paradigm recording such as Back in Black, a recording that garners continuous curiosity, was made on gear a lot of people around here don't like. I think all of us are really here because we love music, and when that ceases to be the driving force behind this forum then I too will evaporate. Just sayin' BTW:--speaking of gone, where's Brian Kehew? |
Wow--I know that this is a year old and maybe opinions have changed, but I didn't see it at the time. Was this really necessary? To bring my name into a thread that I had nothing to do with--completely changing the topic, at that? And to throw around harsh character references? To me, that's not very classy, but on the bright side, I wonder if it doesn't actually sum up many others' silent opinions.
In one of my shorter posts, I can say that there's no need to worry anymore--I won't be back at PSW. I hope you enjoy it more. I've seen alot of people that I respect here leave for one reason or another, and is that what PSW really wants--more people to leave? Sure it may just be me today, but who was it yesterday? Who is it tomorrow? I'm talking about people that are interested in the continued quality of great music, great artists, great albums. Sure, alot of what I write is long and verbose and maybe not what people always want to hear. Quite often, I miss the target and am wrong or maybe the reach exceeds the grasp, but you know what? I have passion. I try. I'm willing to fight for the cause, even if it's not necessarily what the popular opinion is. And you don't always find that in this world.
As for "self appointed musicologist".....I write for Perfect Sound Forever. It's one of the most well respected music connoisseur's places that is out there. They don't just accept anything, you have to have good writing and good ideas for things that haven't been done before, it's a top notch place. Some people may have more production and recording experience than me, that's cool. But I have a valid and welcomed input and appreciation for music that's often been forgotten and left for dead. Some may call that "hobbyist", but there's often no money in that sort of thing either, those forgotten and dead art forms that fall far outside the popular consciousness. Take that for what you will.
Post by: MagnetoSound on September 29, 2010, 07:32:58 PM
Ryan, I have to apologise. It was me who brought you into this thread - but it was not to criticise you, I just was surprised that you had not spoken up in this thread about one of your favourite bands.
It is true that you had been posting a lot about having a hard time in the business and although I felt sympathetic I knew that I was not the only one that found it hard to cope with on a daily basis.
I have to say that when you returned, the mood was decidedly more relaxed, and I for one was quite glad to see you back here - in fact I seem to recall you got a few 'welcome backs' from various folks here.
I have taken a break or two myself when things have gotten on top of me, because I know it is not right to dump on other forum members when I am feeling under too much pressure. It is really not their problem.
Anyway, I am sorry. I love your passion - in fact I love anyone's passion - because without it there is no music.
Don't take too much to heart what a few people wrote a year ago when we were all stressed out, it's not important enough.
Dan
Post by: RSettee on September 29, 2010, 08:34:00 PM
And I don't think that I have enough experience with the old methods to really fit in here for anything than moral support or ideals of what I grew up with as a fan of hearing music and wondering about the song behind the song. So that idealism has, I understand, not.....ingratiated me to some here as much as others, but the only other option is just to let the mystery and the ideal of making great records just slip down the drain and become a lost art. I'm 31, and that's probably one of the more younger people that post here, but I still have that fantasy of how things used to be.....even if I don't technically know how they were done. And I think that the mindset in alot of lurkers here that are too afraid to post, is that they'll make an ass of themselves in front of the major guys (something that Leonardo said in his post).
Undoubtedly, i'll be the first to say that there's been some ridiculous things that i've said here. It comes with fast typing skills and a passionate mind. I have to apologize to anyone that i've offended. But if everyone new or newer is too afraid to talk, all you're getting is the entirely old way of making records. I started out recording on two shitty ghettoblasters....I mean, I thought that was advanced technology for me then, hahaha. But songs aren't always about what you record them on, either. Some of my favorite albums are also the most poorly "produced" in the history of music. You don't look back on what Robert Johnson recorded on, you look back on his songs. Lord knows the "proper" way of doing things ruined half of my record collection (especially in the 80's).
I'd rather stick to making no money and doing it with integrity, than to try to sort of "make it" or try to get in the door some other way and fall flat and wonder why I gave in. I hope that this clears up why "hobbyist" shouldn't be a derogatory term. When I did that interview, I sort of regretted saying "hobby", because it's viewed as a dirty word, and I somehow knew that would be blown out of proportion, somewhere. Let's replace "hobbyist", with "doing things with integrity and never doing anything you don't like". I've never had to do anything I didn't want to--not on my records, not on my friends' records, and I only write (sporadically) about the artists that I feel matter. It's certainly not for money or prestige, because anyone with a brain knows that there's no money in the fringes of music, or the long forgotten and left for dead artists and artistry. Anything that I choose to be passionate about, though, i'm fired up about it.
If I wanted to make money, i'd be in a cover band, i'd have a job at a music store listening to every version of "Purple Haze" or "Smoke On The Water", i'd pander with my own records as to what sells. Maybe i'd be taking a paycheque from someone to work on an album or with an artist that I don't like, but maybe it pays the bills. It just doesn't interest me. I fail to see how that disqualifies me for an opinion on an album that i've bought, "Back In Black", as a fan, on cassette, vinyl, reissue and re-reissue (all the more perplexing, as previously mentioned, since I never actually originally posted in this thread at all, before the ill advised character attacks came out). I'm not into telling people what they hear in records, so i'm perplexed as to why there's any "perspective" to be gleaned from qualifying or disqualifying another fan's perspective....other than, perhaps, elitism. I'm truly baffled by that one, but there are some things that people say that I truly hope they're as happy with themselves now for having once said.
I've never ever attacked anyone's on a personal level here....ever. All the thousands of posts, not one personal attack. Maybe differences over music or technique or belief (or a perceived instance where they thought the argument became representative of something that they strongly believed in--production decision, etc), but not a personally charged attack that strives to hit to the core and injure someone, based on who I think they are...which would be all the more ridiculous, since i've never met the person. Now it's become basically, "hey, you aren't qualified for an opinion". That hurts. I think that everyone that comes here is a winner, even if i've had issues or disagreements. It hurts to see that it's not reciprocal.
I love doing this, but some days, I wonder why I still bother to spend money and time trying to improve what i'm doing as an engineer and technical guy, and then you have dirt kicked in your face at the exact place that you're trying to fit in. It's like being kicked out of a volunteer group. It's not like the world of engineering is this land of greener pastures and some golden ticket....it's hard work. It's not something that I said when I was five years old that I wanted to do, but it's something that I genuinely developed a love of--how music and recordings interacted with each other to make each other better. It's grueling work at times. I mean, it's the minority, but you sort of wonder how welcome you are in the grand scheme of things, how many people that one or two opinions become something that other people really are thinking but don't want to say.
If I came across as a know it all, I really just kind of wanted help to get in the door, to get more experience--despite some of the not so good views or comments, maybe someone connected with something that clued them in to the fact that despite not having the most experience, that I was listening. Listening to recordings. Putting the headphones on. Sitting in the dark on the floor with the stereo on with nothing but the music playing. Stopping in the middle of a store while I was shopping, to listen to some song that blew me away that i'd never heard before. Sometimes I got or get the impression that people take their experiences for granted. I dunno, I wasn't around in the 70's for some of my favorite recordings. I want to be there, but obviously, it's just an idealistic view of how it happened.
Sometimes I have an abrasive, idealistic view of how it's supposed to be, just through the music...but I also have an incredibly naive, childlike view of things at the same time, too. Hell, I thought John and Paul were best friends, you know? That sounds silly, but it's those types of things that drive me. I don't quite get that John and Paul still aren't best friends--despite John's death, even. Maybe I don't want to believe it, heh.
Maybe I just never wanted to get a proper job in the industry, because maybe that would ruin the magic. I look back and think that, but i'm that way with everything. I always want to know how things work, but I never also want to ruin the magic, either. I know a fair bit about chords and notes, but I stopped in guitar lessons when I had to sight read.....it became unfun, and certain things I like to keep a permanent mystery, like when a certain progression or magic hits you without you having to say "that's a diminished blah blah suspended blah blah" and overthink it. To me, that's un-fun. I may start out with a certain overall key, but things still have to kind of work their way out organically without too much analysis. I think that sort of block is what happens to players that were trained exclusively on theory.....this can't happen, and that' can't because that's not proper, it's not correct.
I see some of my friends and some other people that I know that are miserable with having chosen a career in music (in terms of being able to pay bills and whatnot), and that never appealed to me. I also never wanted to be the guy that told a band that their drummer friend was cool and all, but he was a liability--because i'm an artist and lord knows I wouldn't want someone telling me what to do. But at the same time, i'm cognizant of brilliance. My record collection would testify that. I simultaneously don't want people to settle for mediocrity, either. It's a fine line to straddle when you come from the punk rock way, where there's no "producer" in a traditional sense. Most people are pretty happy with "okay" or "decent", whereas i'm pushing way beyond that. Maybe it doesn't end up there, but you know.....the intention is that at least that you aim for it. I may not be there, but at least I aim for it, as well. It's all I have in the end, that I won't just settle for mediocrity--it has to be a magnificent failure, at least. Like, maybe some people think that this essay styled dissertion is overly long and that they rarely see it on a messageboard because everything's supposed to be "concise" and "bite size", but passion and guts and intention is all I have. We're told not to color outside the lines, but as we grow up, sometimes those lines get pretty tried and true and uninteresting. The lines are there to hold us in as to who or what we're "supposed" to be. And maybe this post, too, is a magnificent failure in itself.
My own releases, I produce/ write/ engineer/ perform/ mix/ master. I also finance them and release them, with 100 percent creative control. Google "high watt electrocutions" and see what turns up. That's only one person. There's an inclusion on a Classic Rock magazine sampler, accolades at some major magazines or online places like AllMusic, plus, i've got radio royalty cheques over a year after i'd promoed anywhere. If that doesn't give me some "perspective".....what does one need to do? I'm entirely qualified to give "perspective", because i'm doing it every day. Maybe on a different level, but still no less committed, and dare I say--if someone were to put that much of their artistic vision out there for the world to dissect, that's MORE perspective than I think some people are qualified to comment on here. I get to fuse 100 percent creative control to 100 percent production control.
I have experience promoing and doing bios and shit like that (I also write under pseudonyms, so my own actual name is about a fraction of what i've written under) that are invaluable to running one's own label, and DJing at radio and journalistic experience that have got me some crucial ins at places. That's pretty smart. I've never otherwise had anything but shit for budgets and the music has had to accomplish itself ONLY on a promo and a well written bio. Look at all the foreign obscuro record shops online that carry the material. Or the "followers" section at All Music for Spacemen 3. That's out of an entire world of bands doing a similar style to them. That's pretty good, if you ask me.
The thing about "perspective", is that it often is skewed and is slanted to a certain way that people like to think it is, while the rest of us know that it's only that....a perspective. It's not the truth and it's certainly not close to reality. When people attack my character and qualifications.....i'd say they're in for a surprise, because they obviously haven't done enough homework. It's not the world's greatest success, but judging on the merits of creative control and being able to tell people "no" because i'm not tied into making this a career....i'd be lying if there's not a proud feeling tied to that. Some days I wonder what i'm doing it for, but there's enough things that i'll look back years from now and know that I did it my way. That's three albums now....some of my favorite bands never even made it that far. And i've got almost unanimously, ridiculously well rated albums in reviews. 4 out of 5's, A minus ratings, etc. It takes balls to put that out there, because there's always the chance of being skewered. No one technically has to like it. And i've never truly been skewered.....most just don't bother reviewing it, because they know it's well done, but it just ain't their thing. I still got a great review here, and if you check out more of their reviews, they quite brutally skewer many releases.
And as for qualifications on my current work, one of the most respected heavy rock writers nowadays (and genre appropriate in my case), has this to say about it. The cool thing about reading reviewers that "get" challenging music, is that you've made that connection. You didn't sell ten million albums, but someone gets it, they really understand it. Or maybe other people get your vision. It's not enough to make a career out of, but when you have even more people writing about how they get it, maybe if some audiences were a tad less jaded, they'd actually open themselves up to something new. If it's not the world's most popular thing, that's cool, but that's out of my hands. It doesn't mean that because I haven't had a hit record or that I haven't sold ten zillion albums as a producer, or that if you don't agree with my own music, that there's not some validity in what I write about--whether people like to agree with it or not.
Post by: RM on September 30, 2010, 02:26:39 PM
You should stick around. Who cares what anyone says? This is the internet.
Anyone that gets too uppity about anything you or anyone else types is a waste of time.
You're clearly a passionate dude. That's all there is. You want to learn more - as do most of us who come here daily (whether we post often or not).
If there is one thing that should make this place better, it's tolerance of everyone here. That's what keeps me coming back (so far).
Screw 'em.
From,
A Fellow Winnipeger.
Post by: Fletcher on October 01, 2010, 02:56:53 AM
Shouldn't happen again. Hopefully you've noticed that I've had a bit of a heavier hand in keeping things both civil and professional [or at least closer to professional] - hopefully without erasing too much of the fun [hey we're a creative group and there is bound to be some witty sarcasm strewn about - the difficult calls are which to pull and which to leave].
All of that said -- Ryan, that was one hell of a heartfelt post, I actually read it twice which lead me to reading the entire thread [whew]. All due respect, but taking a JJ Blair "social comment" seriously is like thinking Ann Coulter is a brilliant philosopher - not worth the time to get bent out of shape [at least in my opinion] -- I'm sorry I missed that one, but I have deleted more than a few of his more pointed barbs [especially lately since the chaos has at least ebbed though not completely subsided].
Terry - You mentioned [or some quoted material mentioned] that BIB was about to become the best selling album of all time [42 million units and counting (!!!) quite a feat, wish to hell I had point on it for damn sure!!] - eclipsing "White Christmas", the individual efforts from the Beatles catalog as well as "Thriller". This got me thinking -- though no sales figures have been disclosed I have to wonder how many units of "Dark Side Of The Moon" have been sold. With just a few weeks off for holiday that album has been solidly in the Billboard "Top 200" for close to 40 years. Something tells me that it is probably the "best selling album of all time" but I have no numbers to back that statement, just a gut feeling.
Peace.
Post by: RSettee on October 01, 2010, 07:29:20 AM
There's just a weird vaccuum in which I work--I can't mix or master something if I wasn't there to critique it to begin with, but I also--as mentioned--can't be the guy to tell people what to do with their art. So it leaves me in a weird position. Vig had Cobain do tons of things on "Nevermind" that Cobain wasn't comfortable with.
Obviously, "Nevermind" is, by far, the best Nirvana album. For me, as a fan, it's just their best album....but when Kurt looked back at it, himself, it's a document of someone who he wasn't. And I couldn't do that to someone, their work, their album, their art. When the artist looks at it and doesn't like it, it's a failure as a producer. You may have platinum records on your wall, you may have riches and fortune, and it may be the pinnacle of professionality in some people's eyes. You may have pleased the fans, but you, as an artist, have to be happy with what you've done. It's a document of yourself, as an artist, that you need to look back on later in your life, because success and fame is all subjective.
Alternately, I can't just make an album like "In Utero", and let someone settle for less than what can be the best, when I know how much better it can be. I can't subject someone to the excruciatingly analytical process that I do on my own albums--if I was anyone but myself, I would have walked out a long time ago.
Rick Rubin has always been brought in on albums to get the most out of them; he has said, himself, he doesn't even know how to operate a console. So I think that it's possible to have opinions on taste which may actually have less to do with technical knowledge, than the core art, itself. I'm happy enough with the history of music that I can appreciate those albums, those moments, without actually needing to re-create it. I mean, it's been done. When those artists, those producers, have done those albums like that, i'd be a fool to say that I could do that. Alot of times, I don't know what I can contribute, other than as a music fan, but I can at least align myself with what I consider good taste.
Through all the long winded messages here over the years and disputes, i've tried my best to give perspective as a fan of what i'd maybe do or what I think is an artistically good choice, even if it's short on technical details. To me, if you still believe in Santa Claus, that's okay. You don't need to know that it's your parents. You don't need to know that's a U47 that did that vocal, or even whether you like a U47 at all. You don't need to know whether Santa Claus just slid down the chimney or whatever. As long as that magic is there, as long as you're pushing for that magic, to me, that's what matters. To me, PSW has always been a balance between the equipment, and the translation of vision or ideal via equipment to a subjective and often confused--or unappreciative-- audience. Alot of times, bands step off a string of albums where they gave the audience what they expect, and deviate from that and bomb. Some of those albums remain my favorites by some of those bands. Some of my favorite bands sold zilch for records because they didn't have the "proper" approach to making those records, but I can push for the underdog, the marginalized, because that's what I think makes for good art--people just doing what they do.
How the above statement relates to this discussion in a weird way is that I would want AC/DC to be shooting for "Highway To Hell", or "Back In Black", but I wouldn't be the one to personally get it out of them. I know when a band has hit a creative wall and can do better. Speaking as a fan, as much as AC/DC's albums before that are great, they'd hit a commercial wall and needed someone to harness the commercial appeal of what they'd previously done best. Mutt did just that, and I don't understand the disdain of his work with the band. Those albums are legendary for a reason, and I really am not sure if AC/DC would have been playing venues past small halls (maybe slightly bigger than clubs) without Mutt, because I think that there was something.....the Vanda/ Young albums are great in their own way, but they're more like overdriven 60's albums, like maybe the Sonics or even George's own Easybeats. You could probably date the earlier AC/DC albums back to the 70's, and maybe even mistake them for mid 60's recordings--whereas the Mutt albums, I don't think you can date them. They don't sound like they're from '79-'81. They still hold up incredibly well, today.
The theory is that George was trying to harness the Easybeats' power, without the ballads that he regretted doing then to sell more albums and have more appeal. So he, admittedly, was going for an older and much more unfashionable sound. Mutt got the band to embrace what made them great, but updated it just ever so slightly to connect with more of the current audiences. There's no synths or anything, but there's just a slightly more professional aura around the Mutt albums that signified the band's evolution as a band, where they went from a great band to beyond whatever classification there is beyond the term "great", like they created a whole new ratings system. I was born in '78, so I can't comment on hearing those albums at the time that they were released, but I can say what my reaction to hearing BIB was--"WHOA". I had grew up in the 80's being exposed to the "Fly On The Wall" Brian Johnson stuff first, and I was used to the albums having a few or a couple knockout song--the singles, usually-- and then some songs that were just okay. But BIB and HTH were just at a totally different level, there's something about them--and FTATR, even--that just drew me in with each following song.
If there was one thing George was good at, it was getting Malcolm and Angus to just get to the core of what they were good at. That goes back to the 60's sort of garage influence that AC/DC had in the earlier days. In the early Dave Evans days and even the earliest Bon days, there was a bit of glam influence there, too. Look at the original "Can I Sit Next To You Girl" video with Dave on vocals, and Malcolm in a pseudo pilot get up....Angus' schoolboy get up is the only schtick that remains from what otherwise became just a straight up, no frills hard rock band. George was shooting for taking even that away as it distracted from the music, and his influence had extended to what I feel was always the second producer on those albums--Malcolm (who advised the band to ditch the costume approach other than Angus, and Malcolm--considered by many at the time to be the better lead guitarist, deferred all the soloing to Angus).
In terms of George's influence after he wasn't working with them on the Mutt albums, enough of his discipline rubbed off on Malcolm, who became the guy in the band to tell management, producers, industry types to get lost if it wasn't something that they wanted to do. Malcolm wouldn't have let Mutt make an album that they didn't want to make. I miss the long, dragged out songs like "Riff Raff" and "Let There Be Rock", but the conciseness, execution and quality of the sonics on the Mutt albums are just unheard of. Thousands of years from now, when they're digging up and excavating and sifting through sand, they'll find those albums because so many copies proliferated, and it will actually stand as the best that rock n' roll may have ever had to offer.
"For Those About To Rock...." is, I feel, a great album too. It would be any other band's apex. This is something that I wrote under a journalistic pseudonym of mine--if that's a bad album, then I like bad music, ha ha. That album is pretty underrated in their back catalogue, I think. I think that it just lives in the shadow of possibly the greatest rock album ever made, so it's bound to be a bit of a drop off.
Post by: Nizzle on October 01, 2010, 01:05:19 PM
| J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 04 July 2009 20:28 |
Don't forget the Eventide 949. |
This effect is not terribly subtle on either record. And I love it.
Post by: trock on October 01, 2010, 01:19:59 PM
so i have always thought Brian and Mutt were the 2 forces that took them from the nice success of HTH to the worldwide domination of BIB
they both work for their respective AC/DC era's and both are great but i truly see ac/dc as 2 different era's. Bons and Brians
the other thing i find strange is how long brian has been there now but yet is still looked at like the "new" guy, he has been there 30 years now vs Bon's 6 or so.
maybe its because bons voice never really changed and Brians has over the years. i still remember hearing BIB for the first time and being leveled by brians voice in top notch form.
Post by: compasspnt on October 01, 2010, 01:43:16 PM
| trock wrote on Fri, 01 October 2010 13:19 |
i have always thought Brian and Mutt were the 2 forces that took them from the nice success of HTH to the worldwide domination of BIB |
Of course, the biggest factor being Compass Point...
Post by: Rasmuth on October 01, 2010, 04:06:16 PM
Post by: trock on October 02, 2010, 07:27:41 PM
absolutely, that goes without saying....although it should be said often and in the same sentence as Mutt and Brian
the picture on your new website reminds me of the lyrics
I'm a rolling thunder, pouring rain, I'm coming on like a hurricane
that's a fantastic pic on the home page of the site
did you take it by chance Terry?
Post by: compasspnt on October 02, 2010, 10:01:52 PM
I didn't take that one, but I took this one two days ago...
Post by: trock on October 03, 2010, 07:24:08 AM
thanks!
Post by: amorris on October 03, 2010, 12:47:04 PM
youre killing me.... just kidding, I do remember getting the BIB vinyl LP the day it came out and playing it back to back. it was out of this world. and the last place I imagined it was recorded was in the carribean. it seemed to come from hell itself, or at least england. same thing. HA! I would have gone to "fist a cuffs" if someone said it was done near the beach!
in my opinion, you can not rock out any more than with this record. maybe rock out as much, but not more. appetite for destruction is close. appetite really saved hard rock for me. rock was dying and AFD really ressucitated hard rock.