Post by: hargerst on April 28, 2004, 09:51:45 AM
Most of the "workhorse" mics either have a strong specific coloration (a "signature"), or they are very neutral sounding. They become standards in the studio because they work well for a particular task (e.g., a 57 on snare or electric guitar), or they are fairly neutral, without big peaks (Schoeps, B&K, or ribbons on strings and horns).
The "one-trick pony" mics generally have less uses, but when they work for something, they may work better than anything else you have. These are usually the "try this; maybe it'll work" mics, but they can sometimes surprise you in some applications. I had an AKG C3000 (which is known for its screechy top end), but on one singer I recorded, it sounded perfect - better than anything else I had. After we finished that project, I sold the mic, since it wasn't worth it to me to keep it around just for that one singer.
So, let's talk about workhorses and one-trick ponies. I'll start a separate thread for each, and we'll see how different mics fit into these two different categories. We'll talk about using specific mics and what applications they've worked well in. Some of the choices and applications may be surprising.
Post by: wireline on April 28, 2004, 10:18:19 AM
That said - we've been reserving using an RE16 for almost all lead vocals these days...of course, the 10" speaker mic is pretty much a one trick device for kiks...
This is not to say that if the budget permitted, we wouldn't have a couple of high end one trick devices....but hey - dems cost money which we doesn't got quite yet...
Post by: hargerst on April 28, 2004, 10:33:11 AM
| wireline wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 09:18 |
In my little bitty shop, we don't have the luxury of one trick ponies...EVERYTHING has to serve many purposes, or it is not a cost effective tool... That said - we've been reserving using an RE16 for almost all lead vocals these days...of course, the 10" speaker mic is pretty much a one trick device for kicks... This is not to say that if the budget permitted, we wouldn't have a couple of high end one trick devices....but hey - dems cost money which we doesn't got quite yet... |
There are some pretty cheap one-trick ponies out there, and sometimes a workhorse just won't do the job. For example, small omnis are really accurate, and if the slightly higher self-noise isn't a problem, they can beat out almost any other mic when you want a faithful reproduction of the sound. But most studios seem to ignore them.
Post by: wireline on April 28, 2004, 10:44:33 AM
Post by: hargerst on April 28, 2004, 11:13:24 AM
| wireline wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 09:44 |
got a specific example of a small omni, Harvey? I found a Shure boundary (391?) few months back, but haven't really tried it on anything... |
Okay, the Behringer ECM8000 1/4" omni calibration mic at $35 brand new. Pretty much ruler flat. I've used them on acoustic guitar, upright bass, violins, tambourines, congas, as drum overheads and on cowbells with excellent results. Others for a bit more money include the Audix TR-40, and the T.H.E. KP-6M.
Post by: josh on April 28, 2004, 11:24:17 AM
| hargerst wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 16:13 | ||
Okay, the Behringer ECM8000 1/4" omni calibration mic at $35 brand new. Pretty much ruler flat. I've used them on acoustic guitar, upright bass, violins, tambourines, congas, as drum overheads and on cowbells with excellent results. Others for a bit more money include the Audix TR-40, and the T.H.E. KP-6M. |
I have used ECM8000 a lot lately on electric guitar cab, it rocks. Drum kit. Snare drum, kick drum. Rocks. Of course acoustic guitar, percussion, all the other stuff Harvey mentions. Falls flat on vocals but other than that, there's nothing that it won't do at least a passable job on, and for some things, it's great. Don't leave out stereo recordings, where it really REALLY shines.
See ya-
Post by: nobby on April 28, 2004, 01:15:11 PM
Another one trick pony are sennheiser e604's which I only use for rack toms and snare. 421 for floor tom. They say you can use them for horns; being a clip on it would be handy especially for live, but if I wanted to record a horn I'd probably reach for the RE20 or a 421.
Which brings us to workhorses.
Dynamics: Shure SM57, Sennheise MD421, EV RE20
What can't you use these for in a pinch?
Small diaphram condensers: A pair of Shure SM81's are all I have inthis category (home project studio) and really all I need for overgeads and acoustic instruments
LDC's: A pair of AKG C3000 - I wouldn't use them for vox, but they work decently as drum room mics aimed over the kit at the wall behind the drums. Use them through a warm pre, and other possibilities open up. I have a pair of GT AM51's and a pair of GT AM62's. LDC's in general are versatile.
Post by: sstillwell on April 28, 2004, 01:36:55 PM
SD condensers? I started a thread on that just a few days ago...and for about an eighth of what you paid for the SM81s, you could get a pair of MXL 603S...gorgeous. Overheads, acoustic guitar, orchestral stuff...they're wonderful. The SM81s are great if you want absolutely flat on a budget (compared to DPA, Schoeps, et. al.), but the MXLs SOUND good (translation: slightly colored with a nice high-end rise great for distance miking). My $0.02 worth.
I like the e604s for toms...especially for live stuff. The RE20 works great on sax, or on kick. I'm still KICKing myself for getting rid of mine. I'm an idiot.
The E609s is great for a relatively inexpensive guitar mic...lays flat against the grille. You can just drape the cable over the top and call it good. It's a little bright for live use, but fits pretty decent into a mix
MD421 works a treat on the bottom of a Leslie cabinet.
EV DS-35 (kind of like an RE-16 without the Variable-D) works great on anything that's too effin' loud. They've got very low output for a dynamic, so you don't have to worry about padding on channels. I've used 'em on guitar cabs with great results, and on the top rotors of Leslies.
And it's not recording (unless you're doing live recording, which is about all I've been doing recently), but I LOVE the Audix OM-5 for live vocals. It works for an amazingly broad range of singers.
Scott Stillwell
Post by: plughead on April 28, 2004, 02:15:54 PM
Workhorse mics: 421, 57, 451/414, and even ribbons like an SF-1/R-121/Coles 4038 - all of these see very regular use..
"sleeper" Workhorse mics: E-100's - some laugh, but I often use these for kik/snare, and sometimes prefer it to a 57 (on snare) - also for smokin gtr. cabs - they can take the juice, and provide solid sound - these mics have a dropoff above 10 or 12 k (I can't remember accurately), and don't fall into the typical "bright" category. FWIW, I heard an opera concert recorded with a stereo pr. of E-100's and it sounded remarkably good - not in the league of B&K/Neumann/Schoeps, but damn respectable IMO - Not to mention you can use them as a hammer should you need to pound some nails...
Another "sleeper" IME is the Shure KSM44: this mic has failed to disappoint me in a variety of applications, and rarely is "wrong" when I pull it out: a very good sounding condenser, at any price...
Not going to mention any one trick ponies, mostly due to not experimenting enough with some mics to fairly evaluate whether they suck bad enough to call a "one trick pony"
Great thread!
Post by: josh on April 28, 2004, 03:12:43 PM
Post by: Kooch on April 28, 2004, 04:04:24 PM
SD Condensers: C451s, KSM32
LD Condensers: LomoM1, fet47
All my favorite horses.
Post by: meverylame on April 29, 2004, 03:15:04 AM
Post by: nobby on April 30, 2004, 04:43:28 AM
| sstillwell wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 13:36 |
Heh, SD condensers? I started a thread on that just a few days ago...and for about an eighth of what you paid for the SM81s, you could get a pair of MXL 603S...gorgeous. Overheads, acoustic guitar, orchestral stuff...they're wonderful. The SM81s are great if you want absolutely flat on a budget (compared to DPA, Schoeps, et. al.), but the MXLs SOUND good (translation: slightly colored with a nice high-end rise great for distance miking). My $0.02 worth. |
They weren't available when I got the SM81's. Sometimes you can't wait around for something to be invented. Does the 603s have a -10dB pad and 2 position rolloff? These things can come in handy. Marshall stuff used to have a bad rep for QC issues also, although I don't know if the reputation was deserved. Finally, the SM81's only cost 4x as much
Post by: John Ivan on April 30, 2004, 09:44:05 AM
Post by: Vertigo on April 30, 2004, 09:54:49 AM
-Lance
Post by: sstillwell on April 30, 2004, 03:26:40 PM
1/8th versus 1/4...my bad, you're right. Stupid mistake.
Re: waiting for things to get invented...you're also totally correct, but they're STILL a good investment even if you already have the 81s.
Re: pads and switches...nope, not a single one. You are giving up SOMETHING for the price.
Vertigo...
Check out 8th Street Music. They have single 603S, single units with shock mount, two-packs with cables, four-packs with cables, and stereo pairs in a padded case with shock mounts (that's what I bought). I had zero problems with them, and I understand that they're quite reputable.
Scott
Post by: McAllister on April 30, 2004, 05:09:28 PM
LDC: AT 4050 & 4033
Ribbon: Oktava ML19
I use the Oktava on OH, guitar cabs, horns - whatever. Sounds great. Built like a tank.
I have a great Gefell LDC that is perfect for my voice, but oddly enough I have never ever tried it (!!) on anything else.
I'd like to get:
Dynamic: SM7, RE20, 441, 421
SDC: a matched pair of something - this is the big hole in my mic closet.
M
Post by: oudplayer on May 02, 2004, 12:23:11 AM
Post by: Vertigo on May 02, 2004, 07:51:36 PM
Has anyone here tried the AKG C430's? Only $199 for two and a friend of mine highly recommended them as cheap overheads. I need an extra set of SDC's for mic'ing a double high-hat setup and I was wondering if anyone has tried the little C430's. I was wondering if they'd compliment my setup or if the MXL 603's would be better.
-Lance
Post by: Family Hoof on May 02, 2004, 08:03:05 PM
| Vertigo wrote on Sun, 02 May 2004 19:51 |
Has anyone here tried the AKG C430's? Only $199 for two and a friend of mine highly recommended them as cheap overheads. I need an extra set of SDC's for mic'ing a double high-hat setup and I was wondering if anyone has tried the little C430's. I was wondering if they'd compliment my setup or if the MXL 603's would be better. |
I'm wondering the same thing. I had been eyeballing both of these mics as an alternative to my Rode NT5s but have heard neither. When I saw the data sheet for the c430s, I was immediate deterred by the 5dB boost from 5 - 10kHz. I can only imagine this rendering them extremely harsh and unusable.
I've only heard great things about the MXL603s. Indeed, Harvey owns a whole bunch and says they sound almost exactly like Oktava MC012s. However, I have to pick and choose where I spend my nonexistent budget so alas I still don't own a pair.
Post by: carne_de_res on May 04, 2004, 03:18:23 PM
Behringher ECM8000 mic.they're so inexpensive
i could buy them without even trying them!
my workhorses:
dynamic: 421 for bass amp,bass drum,toms,electric guitars,
harsh rock vocals,even as _overheads_!!!
ribbon: beyer m160.well...it's the only ribbon mic
i own but i use it a lot:electric guitar,cello,mono
overhead,some vocals.
LDC:shure ksm 32.works great on just about anything.
Post by: covert on May 05, 2004, 07:13:18 AM
| Quote: |
I've only heard great things about the MXL603s. Indeed, Harvey owns a whole bunch and says they sound almost exactly like Oktava MC012s. However, I have to pick and choose where I spend my nonexistent budget so alas I still don't own a pair. |
The 603s as overheads work great. Last project drums were done with these as overheads, a kick mic, and a snare mic. Even the dumb guitar player complimented me on the drum sounds.
Post by: Phillip Graham on May 06, 2004, 07:18:13 PM
Over time I have learned a lot more about the mics out there from the studio guys. Over in the live world many of the good ribbons, etc. are too fragile to use regularly unless you are touring every night with the same people.
For all of those who like the SM57 for various things, I strongly recommend trying the Beta 57a instead. If I had to mix an entire stage of Rock n Roll using one microphone on all instruments/vocal, this would probably be it. It also holds up to being whacked by the drummer much more than a 57.
The SM81 has proven a reliable live pencil condensor microphone over the years.
The KSM series mics are durable enough to use live all the time, too.
Two other budget mics I like are the superlux ECM999. This is their omni pencil condensor. A better version of the Behringer 8000 for about 2x the price.
CAD (cadmics.com) also makes a rockin' vocal condensor called the C195 for about 75 bucks. It's very similar in tone to the Neumann KMS105 (Neumann's live vocal mic). It's also useable on guitars and amps where some extra "air" is nice.
Post by: josh on May 06, 2004, 09:12:51 PM
| gtphill wrote on Fri, 07 May 2004 00:18 |
Two other budget mics I like are the superlux ECM999. This is their omni pencil condensor. A better version of the Behringer 8000 for about 2x the price. |
FWIW I think this may be exactly the same mic as the Behringer with a different color paint and a different name silkscreened on it. The frequency response plot looks worse than the Behringer.
I just recorded some drums today with my ECM8000's earlier today. It's not that "they're great for the money", but "they're very useful, versatile, and good-sounding microphones". Period.
There may very well be better omni mics out there, but there's nothing wrong with the ECM's other than perhaps the stigma of the Behringer name.
Post by: hargerst on May 06, 2004, 11:30:11 PM
Post by: josh on May 07, 2004, 09:49:17 AM
| hargerst wrote on Fri, 07 May 2004 04:30 |
I think I used some 70% denatured alchohol, but the Behringer name wipes right off the mics (which surprised me) when I went to clean them. |
That's a good tip. Acetone works well too.
Maybe I'll try that.
Last night I also laid down some vocal tracks with one of my grille-modded Oktava MK-219's. Another great workhorse mic. Tremendous on snare drum. Gotta finish the mods on the other one so I can try it on kick.
Post by: Phillip Graham on May 07, 2004, 11:21:02 AM
| josh wrote on Thu, 06 May 2004 21:12 | ||
FWIW I think this may be exactly the same mic as the Behringer with a different color paint and a different name silkscreened on it. The frequency response plot looks worse than the Behringer. I just recorded some drums today with my ECM8000's earlier today. It's not that "they're great for the money", but "they're very useful, versatile, and good-sounding microphones". Period. There may very well be better omni mics out there, but there's nothing wrong with the ECM's other than perhaps the stigma of the Behringer name. |
The body of the behringer is similar to the ECM999, but the electronics, and frequency response (measured with TEF against a B&K) is better for the superlux. Also the mic to mic tolerance is better for the superlux than the behringer, based on measuring multiple samples. Behringer "specifications" have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Many of the omnis, Behringer, superlux, and earthworks included, use variants of the panasonic electret capsule. Just that some suppliers (namely earthworks) are much more careful of what capsules they accept. The front end electronics also differ.
I use the ECM to do FFT based acoustics analysis, and recordings made from it are incidental. The approximately 1dB narrower window of it's frequency response over the Behringer makes it worth 2x the (very modest) price.
Post by: sstillwell on May 10, 2004, 02:33:58 PM
| covert wrote on Wed, 05 May 2004 06:13 | ||
The 603s as overheads work great. Last project drums were done with these as overheads, a kick mic, and a snare mic. Even the dumb guitar player complimented me on the drum sounds. |
Kick mic??? How did you mic the kick? I've heard that you have to be real careful when using them for vocals so that you don't bottom out the diaphragm from p-pops and such...wouldn't you have the same problem with the air moving on a kick?
I also think that you'd have trouble with isolating individual drums due to the wide pattern of the mic.
All that being said...good grief, I've GOT to try this!
THAT is thinking outside the box.
Scott
Post by: bgavin (Bruce Gavin) on May 11, 2004, 02:39:51 PM
ATM23HE appear to be a well kept secret. I just acquired a pair of them, but them seem to be more "with it" than my Audix D4. The ATM23HE will do multiple duty on snare and guitar cabs.
I have an Audix D4 for an alternate flavor on drums, and bass cabs.
For live vocals, I tried replacing my pair of SM58 through Rane MLM preamps (burr-brown INA163). Even with JBL mains, the SM58 were kinda muffled. I put up my ancient pair of RS #33-1080 electret SDC and got a huge boost in clarity. The vocal thing just comes alive with these old dawgs.
Post by: Duardo on May 11, 2004, 07:20:46 PM
As for one-trick poines, I'd put most large-diaphragm condensers into that category. Most of them seem to have a fairly distinct character to them that works great on some sources and not so well on others. There are a few of the more neutral-sounding ones, like perhaps Audio Technica's 4050 or AKG's C414B/ULS, that I've worked with that I'd consider to be workhorses, but I don't own those particular microphones. Large-diaphragm condensers I find myself using on vocals and just about nothing else these days, although I'd be perfectly comfortable laying down a vocal track with an R121 and a good EQ.
At this point I'd consider my SM57's to fall more on the one-trick-pony side of things than I would the workhorse side, since pretty much all I use them for is close-miking drums. I haven't felt the desire to put one on a guitar amp since I picked up my Royers. And I do have a D112 and an ATM25 I use on kick and floor toms that I'd put on the one-trick-pony list as well.
-Duardo