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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab => Topic started by: radiovinheta on September 03, 2010, 07:35:26 AM

Title: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: radiovinheta on September 03, 2010, 07:35:26 AM

I'm buying a Manley Ref. Cardioid...
I found an information that i need to know that's true.
This mic uses Chinese Capsule? High price for these, if true...

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: Tim Campbell on September 03, 2010, 08:33:22 AM

As far as I've been told by Manley they use David Josephson's capsules. The confusion might  come from the fact that David uses phillips head screws to secure his membranes so that they look a little similar to some of the chinese capsules.

-After checking around the web a bit it may be that only the gold reference mic uses David's capsule.

They claim that  the Langevin fet mic uses the same capsule as the Reference cadiod and go on to say that all it's parts are sourced overseas.

Maybe Eveanna can chime in and clear this up?

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: Nick Sevilla on September 03, 2010, 11:17:23 AM

Just to chime in,

I use one of these for a few years with a client who has one.

Wonderful mic, regardless of where the parts are actually made.

Cheers

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: radiovinheta on September 03, 2010, 11:32:35 AM

Yes, Gold use Josephson capsule.
But Cardioid seems to use chinese capsule, is the same of Langevin fet mic?

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: compasspnt on September 03, 2010, 01:48:22 PM

Merely the fact that a capsule is made in China does not by definition make it terrible.

There are a couple of good capsules made there, based in fact and in part upon direct input from Gefell; but of course the majority is certainly less than that quality.

If using the best of Chinese capsules, it would then depend upon how the designer had implemented it into the total system.

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: Didier Brest on September 03, 2010, 03:25:54 PM

I found nowhere the self-noise level values in dBA of the Manley mics. Who knows ?

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: radiovinheta on September 03, 2010, 03:56:25 PM

I read on another forum, from a user that compares U87 to Manley Cardioid, that Manley have more noise, aprox 10+dB. And U87 isn't the quietest condenser on market.

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: J.J. Blair on September 03, 2010, 03:57:41 PM

The Ref Card uses the exact same capsule as the CR3A, which is made in China by Feilo.  These are great sounding capsules, and great sounding microphones.  I have owned CR3As for sixteen years, and the only capsule failures ever were caused by a drummer hitting the mic with his stick really hard.  

Are the materials as good as a Neumann capsules?  Probably not.  Are the tolerances from one capsule to the next as tight?  Definitely not.  Have I ever been displeased with the seven examples of mics with these capsules, that I have either owned or used?  Certainly not.  

Just because they are Chinese does not mean they are cheap.  And the craftsmanship and quality of the circuitry justifies the cost, in my mind.  They are not cheap mics, and I would certainly rather use one of these over, say, a new U87ai, which costs more.  

And personally, I would use a these Feilo capsules before I'd ever use a Peluso capsule.

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: J.J. Blair on September 03, 2010, 04:03:04 PM

Didier Brest wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 12:25

I found nowhere the self-noise level values in dBA of the Manley mics. Who knows ?

"Noise typically -120dB EIN"

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: radiovinheta on September 03, 2010, 05:44:07 PM

Check this out: http://www.feilo-usa.com/

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: KB_S1 on September 03, 2010, 06:25:32 PM

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 20:57

And personally, I would use a these Feilo capsules before I'd ever use a Peluso capsule.

What's up with the Peluso mic's?

I have not had any opportunity to try them yet but my usual kit supplier is now pushing them. I thought they looked interesting, good value and worth a punt. Lots of good reviews out there too.

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: Nick Sevilla on September 03, 2010, 09:23:32 PM

I have the 22 47 LE. It's good.

Cheers

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: radiovinheta on September 04, 2010, 08:31:14 AM

I've tested Peluso k47 and k67, great sounding capsules for the price!
PK47 in u47fet sounds almost like to original, a little more bright.
Pk67 in u87Ai sounds like original.

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: Didier Brest on September 04, 2010, 08:01:16 PM

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 22:03

"Noise typically -120dB EIN"

Yes I saw this in Manley's specs. But how this translates in a equivalent acoustic noise in dBSPL (or A-weighted in dBA) as given by all the other microphone manufacturers?

The sensitivity specified by Manley is 17 mV/Pa, that is -35 dB re. 1V/Pa. Then we must know the electric noise level at the microphone output to get from here an acoustic noise at the microphone output. If it it x dB re. 1V, then the equivalent acoustic noise level equals  x + 35 in dB re. 1 Pa and x + 35 + 94 in dB SPL. I don't think that x equals -120 dB (or -122 dB if the Manley figure is not in dB re. 1V but in dBu) because the noise figure would be about 10 dBSPL (or dBA assuming that the -120 dB figure from Manley is A-weighted ?). This is far below what I experienced on a Reference Gold.

Actually Manley specifies an electric noise level at the input of the internal preamp in the mic (EIN means Equivalent Input Noise). We cannot derive the microphone self-noise from this figure without knowing the gain of this preamp. Let us assume that this gain would be equal to 20 dB. Then x would be equal to -100 dB re. 1 V and the noise level would be equal to  30 dB SPL. This is certainly closer to the truth than 10 dBSPL.

I asked Manley about that. They did not answer.

 

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: Klaus Heyne on September 04, 2010, 08:20:53 PM

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 10:48

Merely the fact that a capsule is made in China does not by definition make it terrible. There are a couple of good capsules made there, based in fact and in part upon direct input from Gefell.

Tell us more. News to me that MG collaborates with Chinese capsule manufacturers.

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: J.J. Blair on September 04, 2010, 08:31:08 PM

KB_S1 wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 15:25

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 20:57   And personally, I would use a these Feilo capsules before I'd ever use a Peluso capsule. What's up with the Peluso mic's? I have not had any opportunity to try them yet but my usual kit supplier is now pushing them. I thought they looked interesting, good value and worth a punt. Lots of good reviews out there too.

I have never personally cared that much for their sound.  I find them to be too "exciting."  

Also, a good friend was using their capsules, and stopped, because of the unreliability.  Of the last batch of 100, he told me that he sent 75 back.  

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: compasspnt on September 04, 2010, 09:11:24 PM

Klaus Heyne wrote on Sat, 04 September 2010 20:20

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 03 September 2010 10:48 Merely the fact that a capsule is made in China does not by definition make it terrible. There are a couple of good capsules made there, based in fact and in part upon direct input from Gefell. Tell us more. News to me that MG collaborates with Chinese capsule manufacturers.

I was quoting third party information I have heard several times regarding consultation years ago, not today...for instance, in posts such as this:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/322664/6490/?sr ch=gefell+china#msg_322664

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: Oliver Archut on September 04, 2010, 09:45:08 PM

The information I got was direct from Gefell and from the Chinese, in the 1950 and 60s Gefell trained several engineers form the PRC, as well as sending techs to China evaluating their capsules.
On account of their last sales manager, Frank, there is still some information exchange.

Best regards,

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: Klaus Heyne on September 05, 2010, 03:06:56 AM

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 04 September 2010 17:31

[ (...) Also, a good friend was using their capsules, and stopped, because of the unreliability.  Of the last batch of 100, he told me that he sent 75 back.

J.J., you probably know the rules here quite well. You'll have to reveal the source in order to avoid "third party / hear say" accusations.

Title: Re: Manley Reference Cardioid - Chinese capsule?
Post by: J.J. Blair on September 06, 2010, 03:21:59 AM

Klaus, sorry.  I wasn't sure if I was in violation.  Feel free to delete that.