Post by: zmix on October 16, 2009, 04:30:26 PM
Any alternative replicators who do accept DDP?
Post by: Waltz Mastering on October 16, 2009, 04:46:00 PM
Post by: bblackwood on October 16, 2009, 04:58:17 PM
Post by: TotalSonic on October 16, 2009, 05:10:43 PM
Seems a lot of my clients these days go to Discmakers or Nationwide in Texas - but neither will accept DDP.
I understand the reasons for this as they have a strict work flow for their glass mastering that makes it more of a non-brainer to keep going. In this case "inputs" are CD-R's only - first tested to see if they are to spec - and then the passed ones read into hard drives into DDP formatted exactly as needed, with entire batches able to be queued to the LBR. It's an either/or work flow - not a "maybe if" that you can get with DDP images not being formatted in precisely the way you need them.
Of course it wouldn't be all that hard for them to change this so that they could easily accommodate DDP via FTP - but once a plant determines the "way they like to do things" don't hold your breath for it to change.
btw - the "greenest" policy regarding CD's is just not to make them!! As far as digipaks and jackets that Oasis spouts as being so environmentally conscious - sure, there's more elements to them that are biodegradable - but anyone who has ever lived next to a paper mill knows they are a far thing from being truly "green." For some reason this absurd pandering to folks guilt as a misplaced and misinforming marketing plot always rubs me the wrong way.
Best rewgards,
Steve Berson
Post by: zmix on October 16, 2009, 06:45:31 PM
| Oh as is wrote on Fri, 16 October 2009 16:30 |
Chuck, We do have an FTP for design, however it is not a perfect world. We do get a small percentage of corrupted files which we don't find out until it's been opened up. With a clients master we don't feel we want to gamble on the their final product or chance an issue. I hope you understand. Sorry for any inconvenience. Chris Walthy Client Advisor Oasis Disc Manufacturing chris@oasiscd.com |
To which I replied......
Hi Chris,
So it is the official position of Oasis to say that possible file corruption has eliminated the possibility of any FTP transfer?
I would expect an equal number of corrupted discs to FTP files... I routinely use my FTP site to accept client projects and masters and I urge then to ZIP the files as any errors are detected immediately upon unziping and substitutes may be uploaded to replace them. There are several replicators who do accept DDP via FTP, and more mastering houses which transfer files this way (Sterling, for just one huge example, has their own client software for downloading a DDP file and burning a disc for reference.) I thought that given Oasis "Green" posture you would understand the importance.
-Chuck
Post by: bblackwood on October 16, 2009, 07:04:37 PM
Bizarre that in this day and age the fear of 'bad FTP transfers' still exists...
Post by: carlsaff on October 16, 2009, 07:14:38 PM
That is diligent error-checking there, Brad! I'm pretty sure that ZIP-ing alone is more than sufficient protection against data corruption. If the uploaded ZIP doesn't open, the data is corrupt. If it does, it's not. Someone please tell me if I'm wrong.
Post by: bblackwood on October 16, 2009, 09:39:39 PM
| carlsaff wrote on Fri, 16 October 2009 18:14 |
That is diligent error-checking there, Brad! I'm pretty sure that ZIP-ing alone is more than sufficient protection against data corruption. If the uploaded ZIP doesn't open, the data is corrupt. If it does, it's not. Someone please tell me if I'm wrong. |
Could be, but when it only takes five minutes, I hardly see it as over-zealous.
Post by: Bob Olhsson on October 17, 2009, 12:50:55 AM
Post by: bkuijt on October 17, 2009, 09:26:18 AM
| Bob Olhsson wrote on Sat, 17 October 2009 06:50 |
Remember that they are dealing with all levels of clients and mastering facilities. I suspect they've gotten burned where the client hadn't actually heard and signed off on a CD-R that had been made from the DDP. |
Over here in the Netherlands they tell me: "there's no point because we have to burn a CDR of the DDP and this is extra work and risk of something going wrong. We assume you don't want us meddling with your product..."
The bigger ones accept DDP and ftp but the cheapo's don't.
Post by: Bob Olhsson on October 17, 2009, 11:22:45 AM
| carlsaff wrote on Fri, 16 October 2009 18:14 |
...If the uploaded ZIP doesn't open, the data is corrupt. If it does, it's not. Someone please tell me if I'm wrong. |
Post by: Viitalahde on October 17, 2009, 02:51:00 PM
| Bob Olhsson wrote on Sat, 17 October 2009 16:22 |
I recently learned the hard way that a zip can be opened with the audio corrupted. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a RAR package is immune to this? I honestly don't know how widely RAR is supported, though. I've always liked it.
ARJ X *.*
Post by: bkuijt on October 17, 2009, 03:55:53 PM
| Viitalahde wrote on Sat, 17 October 2009 20:51 | ||
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a RAR package is immune to this? I honestly don't know how widely RAR is supported, though. I've always liked it. ARJ X *.* |
Drifting off topic a bit:
RAR is very robust but I've had BOTH zip and rar failures (also found out the hard way).
When zip made it's first error I had to re-author the SACD and switched to RAR.
The RAR error was spotted by the MD5 check (so theoretically it could also be an unreported HD write failure, there is no way of knowing).
I check MD5 all the time: reading CD's or DVD's, unpacking archives or when people send unpacked data by FTP. Even when copying lots of data to a different drive.
With returning customers I ask them to include the checksums from their end, saves a lot of time.
Post by: crna59 on October 17, 2009, 04:03:00 PM
Regards,
Post by: hnewman on October 17, 2009, 04:03:20 PM
Post by: TotalSonic on October 17, 2009, 07:32:20 PM
| hnewman wrote on Sat, 17 October 2009 16:03 |
I believe FLAC is also error immune, and most of the frontends let you fingerprint when you encode. I wish FLAC would catch on, I like that most software will play them without decompressing. |
I agree - FLAC is excellent format and the one current lossless codec I'm most hoping becomes an "industry standard" in the future. The big barrier to its acceptance is whether Apple will support it. Currently they don't - but they don't sell audio on the iTunes store in their own ALAC lossless codec either - meaning a lose/lose situation for those of us who accept that physical digital audio delivery formats are heading to extinction, but who would still like a high-fidelity format that is widely used by the end listener base.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: blip on October 27, 2009, 10:28:19 AM
Do understand though that we are a big ship, not a speedboat, and sometimes it takes a while to change course. The reluctance to accept masters via upload was more of a workflow issue, and not so much a technical one with the plant. If we book 100 new jobs in a day, there has to be some way to track where all of those masters are, and since delivery on physical media was the norm for so long that is what our flow developed around here, a physical master traveling with the appropriate paperwork.
You or your client just need to inform the Product Specialist or Project Manager you're dealng with that you wish to upload your master(if they say we can't accept it that way just politely inform them that we certainly can and you received that information from me). Log in information will be generated and e-mailed to you so you can complete the upload.
In the very near future we will be making available an uploader that any client or studio can access to upload files for replication or mastering. I also spoke with a mastering engineer at AES who was interested in us providing a dedicated FTP share for studios in our Studio Partner program. We're exploring this as well, and this would certainly simplify the process of delivering masters to us for those studios that do a lot of business with us.
Post by: bblackwood on October 27, 2009, 10:59:53 AM
Post by: zmix on October 27, 2009, 12:41:52 PM
| blip wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 10:28 |
FYI. We can and do accept DDP files for replication via FTP at DiscMakers. Do understand though that we are a big ship, not a speedboat, and sometimes it takes a while to change course. The reluctance to accept masters via upload was more of a workflow issue, and not so much a technical one with the plant. If we book 100 new jobs in a day, there has to be some way to track where all of those masters are, and since delivery on physical media was the norm for so long that is what our flow developed around here, a physical master traveling with the appropriate paperwork. You or your client just need to inform the Product Specialist or Project Manager you're dealng with that you wish to upload your master(if they say we can't accept it that way just politely inform them that we certainly can and you received that information from me). Log in information will be generated and e-mailed to you so you can complete the upload. In the very near future we will be making available an uploader that any client or studio can access to upload files for replication or mastering. I also spoke with a mastering engineer at AES who was interested in us providing a dedicated FTP share for studios in our Studio Partner program. We're exploring this as well, and this would certainly simplify the process of delivering masters to us for those studios that do a lot of business with us. |
Thanks for this information, Brian..! I was told recently that Oasis was purchased by Discmakers, is this true?
-
Post by: blip on October 27, 2009, 01:09:11 PM
Post by: K. Evan Hodge IV on October 29, 2009, 12:47:45 AM
They don't have it all set up yet, so there are still a few quirks. But I got to test out their setup to help get it running. So far so good.
K
Post by: blip on October 29, 2009, 02:31:20 PM
Glad it worked out for you! Post by: Silvertone on October 30, 2009, 08:43:46 AM
| zmix wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 11:41 | ||
Thanks for this information, Brian..! I was told recently that Oasis was purchased by Discmakers, is this true? - |
reply deleted due to incorrect information.
Post by: djwaudio on October 30, 2009, 09:23:20 PM
After the CDs were produced, we'd run a data comparison/verify.
It's not surprising to me that the plants want physical media still. Anything that resemble a "black box" or is new and different does not mesh well with that kind of production environment. Changing input media specifications requires an engineering process change, then all of procedures need to be updated, and the customer service and production staff need to be retrained. Of course they will make costly mistakes in the process.
If there's any chance that there could be problems, they will shoot it down. Without something physical, the perceived weak link may be in the verification step.
Post by: blip on October 31, 2009, 05:59:02 PM
Post by: Greg Reierson on November 24, 2009, 04:00:42 PM
| blip wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 09:28 |
FYI. We can and do accept DDP files for replication via FTP at DiscMakers. |
I just got off the phone with Joe Roman at DiscMakers. He was emphatic that they DO NOT accept DDP...
Has this changed in the last few days??
GR
Post by: Garrett H on November 25, 2009, 10:08:50 PM
I wrote Mr. Gil. Regrettably, I don't think its appropriate to post that missive on a public forum.
And, yes, they accept do DDPs.
Post by: Greg Reierson on November 25, 2009, 11:19:53 PM
GR
Post by: blip on December 04, 2009, 05:00:10 PM
| Greg Reierson wrote on Wed, 25 November 2009 22:19 |
Yes, they did finally accept the DDP. I'll let Brian elaborate rather than further muddy the DM waters. GR |
Yeah, sorry again about the confusion Greg. We had to try to limit the number of FTP uploads we were accepting until the IT dept. wraps up work on our new upload site. So the sales staff was told to try to keep uploaded masters to a minimum, though they shouldn't be denying that option completely.
Seems like everyone was trying to upload a master this busy season in hopes of shaving some time off their turn!
Post by: Greg Youngman on December 04, 2009, 05:21:43 PM
| TotalSonic wrote on Fri, 16 October 2009 14:10 |
btw - the "greenest" policy regarding CD's is just not to make them!! Best rewgards, Steve Berson |
And.. no tube amps! Or, anything with a power supply!
Post by: blip on December 04, 2009, 07:23:06 PM
Post by: bblackwood on December 04, 2009, 08:14:16 PM
I have to tell you, for a company of this size to even give the slightest grief over accepting DDP masters is stunning. If this were 1999 I might understand it, but come on!
Post by: cass anawaty on December 04, 2009, 09:42:00 PM
Post by: blip on December 04, 2009, 10:57:30 PM
| bblackwood wrote on Fri, 04 December 2009 19:14 |
Had a client need a master delivered earlier this week, so I called, and while they didn't tell me they wouldn't accept DDP, they stressed over and over that they 'prefer' hard copies. I have to tell you, for a company of this size to even give the slightest grief over accepting DDP masters is stunning. If this were 1999 I might understand it, but come on! |
Our size is the reason for the delay in taking DDP uploads.
I know it's hard to understand, but our procedures have been in place for years, long before it was feasible to deliver masters electronically, and so we have a system based around physical masters that come in and are labeled and able to be tracked in an 80,000 sq. ft. facilty with hundreds of employees.
We're getting there, but we have to make sure we do it right. We booked almost 200 jobs in a single day recently, all of those masters need to be accounted for.
The overwhelming number of masters we receive are still plain Jane audio discs, so while there is certainly demand for uploading masters from the more professional mastering houses like yourself the truth is we're putting a system in place that will only be used by a small percentage of clients for the foreseeable future.
We deal with some pretty large outside replication companies like Sony, and pretty much across the board they won't accept DDPs via FTP, so I think industry wide the mentality is that the current system works fine and therefore why change it.
I'm definitely an advocate for this happening because I know many of you would find it convenient and you send a lot of work to us. The Soundlab haven't delivered physical discs to our plant in about a year, we're all DDP across the network internally, so I know the benefits of that method of delivery and you can trust that I do want to see a safe, reliable method for our clients to upload masters to us.
Post by: Greg Reierson on February 01, 2010, 03:13:41 PM
GR
Post by: Waltz Mastering on February 01, 2010, 03:40:19 PM
Might be worth another try. Brian would know.
blipski@discmakers.com
Post by: urm eric on February 01, 2010, 03:55:41 PM
| Waltz Mastering wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 14:40 |
I think they are testing the beta version of their new upload service, and currently working with a a few clients in that respect. Might be worth another try. Brian would know. blipski@discmakers.com |
Is there a way to get onto that beta list? Though we're UK based we also have US clients and DDP via internet vs physical media via costly Fedex or Royal (slow) Mail can be a deal breaker.
Thanks,
Eric
Post by: Peter Beckmann on February 01, 2010, 06:17:34 PM
Worked out fine, a few screens of info to fill in and then was underway.
Really good from my perspective: much much quicker than UK to stateside by Fedex and no courier bills either!
Peter
Post by: blip on February 01, 2010, 10:48:28 PM
| Greg Reierson wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 14:13 |
I was told again today not to send a DDP. GR |
PM'd you Greg.
Post by: blip on February 01, 2010, 11:04:38 PM
| Waltz Mastering wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 14:40 |
I think they are testing the beta version of their new upload service, and currently working with a a few clients in that respect. Might be worth another try. Brian would know. blipski@discmakers.com |
Yes, we are currently testing the beta version of the upload service we've been working on recently. It is currently "live"(but not public) and being used by a limited number of our Product Specialists and Project managers. Right now it is only available if someone internally sets it up, and that is on a case-by-case basis. Eventually this will be a part of our MyAccount site(where clients and Studio Partners track jobs, etc.) and a client or their studio/engineer will be able to upload at will.
I have to stress that I still have a couple of training/demo sessions scheduled with the sales staff prior to this going public, so you may still get some resistance to delivering via upload at the moment.
I will certainly make an announcement here when this is 100% ready!
My 5-year old daughter asked me to add the smilies!
Post by: blip on February 01, 2010, 11:08:58 PM
| urm eric wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 14:55 | ||
Is there a way to get onto that beta list? Though we're UK based we also have US clients and DDP via internet vs physical media via costly Fedex or Royal (slow) Mail can be a deal breaker. Thanks, Eric |
There isn't really a beta list Eric. A limited number of our sales staff are authorized to either grant access to the upload service, or have been instructed to ask me to grant access.
You can feel free to contact me if you do need to send a master via upload. I will do whatever I can to help facilitate that process for you.
Post by: blip on February 01, 2010, 11:12:29 PM
| Peter Beckmann wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 17:17 |
Just thought I'd mention that I sent a DDP for replication to discmakers last week using their system. Worked out fine, a few screens of info to fill in and then was underway. Really good from my perspective: much much quicker than UK to stateside by Fedex and no courier bills either! Peter |
Glad you were able to utilize the new system Peter!
Post by: bblackwood on March 02, 2010, 02:03:17 PM
They also lost a physical production master that was shipped for another client last month. (edit: just got an email from said client informing me DM is refusing to pay for a replacement master even though they admit they lost it.)
I used to have no problem with clients going to DM, but now I'm rethinking it.
Not sure what's going on in Pennsuaken, but wasting my time because of disorganization is not an endearing quality...
Post by: Viitalahde on March 02, 2010, 02:18:39 PM
But my favourite ones were the guys who said DDP was OK, and after uploading it I got an email asking "What is this and what kind of a software do we need to burn it?".
In the end, it's the mastering engineer who rushes to the rescue.
Post by: Greg Reierson on March 02, 2010, 02:22:17 PM
GR
Post by: Waltz Mastering on March 02, 2010, 03:21:36 PM
| bblackwood wrote on Tue, 02 March 2010 14:03 |
I used to have no problem with clients going to DM, but now I'm rethinking it. |
When I deal with DM, I sometimes go through/notify the local DM project manager to make sure things go smooth. I'm sure they'll make good on it. They seem to go the extra mile for the client sometimes. I hope everything gets sorted out.
Post by: blip on March 02, 2010, 08:41:58 PM
| bblackwood wrote on Tue, 02 March 2010 13:03 |
So I uploaded an emergency (rush job) DDP for a client to the Discmakers server over a week ago, just got an email from the client saying "they can't find it", so I logged back in to upload another copy and it's right there in the list of files already uploaded... |
Like I mentioned in my email Brad, one of the possibilities is that all of pages weren't clicked through. There are several pages, and the final page gives a "Your files have been successfully uploaded" message. That is when we are officially notified that the upload is complete and we need to retrieve files, though the files are actually uploaded to the server on the second page. (this actually allows a client to upload files at different times, and not "finalize" the process until they have everything uploaded)
We ran into this once or twice already, and have added the "subway stops" along the top of the screen to help guide people along to the end. We're likely going to add some additional verbiage that is more clear and indicates that ALL steps must be completed in order for the upload to be considered "finished".
Like Greg said, we are making progress. We've already taken dozens of DDPs through the upload site, and for the most part the Beta stage has been fairly smooth sailing, and while still not officially "live" to the general public, at this point all of the sales folks have been given the green light to accept/offer uploads, with an emphasis on DDP masters.
I look forward to continuing to refine the process and making it as reliable as possible for all of you.
Now, if we can stop clients from uploading MP3s........
Post by: Garrett H on March 02, 2010, 08:57:47 PM
However, you must wait for the upload to completely succeed. THEN, you must fill out the next page or the DM Project Manager won't know about the DDP or won't be able to access it.
I hope there is someway to change that required step as its not conducive to the production life cycle.
Otherwise, I'm very happy that they're finally allowing DDP uploads. In the past 5 weeks I have had to go around with 5 different sales people who all said "I've been here for 10 years and we've never allowed an upload of a master. . . "
Of course, they assumed I meant uploading MP3s (despite using DDP in my emails). And to defend them, you all know people constantly ask if the can 'email their CD out of iTunes and just have DM make it....'
Post by: blip on March 02, 2010, 10:52:56 PM
| Garrett H wrote on Tue, 02 March 2010 19:57 |
So, this past week DM rolled out an upload page that allows you to upload DDPs. However, you must wait for the upload to completely succeed. THEN, you must fill out the next page or the DM Project Manager won't know about the DDP or won't be able to access it. I hope there is someway to change that required step as its not conducive to the production life cycle. |
Garrett, glad you were able to upload your DDP files for Jordan's project recently, looks like all went well.
I'm all for making things simpler, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have to click through a few pages and provide some info to ensure that we can track your uploads properly.
For DDPs it's really pretty simple. The clients info on the first page(have to have this obviously), pick your DDP files/upload them on the second page, album name and artist name on the third page(helps with tracking), and a brief review of what files and info is being sent.
Maybe we can ask for the Artist/Album name on the upload page and save a step/page, and some may feel the final "confirmation" page is redundant, but it doesn't hurt to check one last time that you've uploaded the correct file, version, etc.
Being in the Beta stage still we will tweak things as necessary, so feel free to email feedback or comments if you've uploaded through the site.
Post by: bblackwood on March 02, 2010, 11:28:29 PM
That being said, simply allowing DDPi upload is a huge step forward, so no complaints.
Post by: Greg Reierson on March 03, 2010, 08:49:11 AM
| bblackwood wrote on Tue, 02 March 2010 22:28 |
A basic FTP server with assigned folder names would be ideal - that's what most every other place does and it's easy like pie. |
I actually prefer the 'drop box' approach of the DM upload page, but they need to eliminate that last confirmation page and put those questions on the same page as the file selection. Then we could select the file to upload and walk away.
Nobody wants to wait for the upload to finish before entering more info. We're well into the next project by then.
GR
Post by: Peter Beckmann on March 03, 2010, 05:00:43 PM
| Greg Reierson wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 13:49 |
Nobody wants to wait for the upload to finish before entering more info. We're well into the next project by then. GR |
Exactly.
Especially if failing to fill in a form means you have to start the upload all over again....
Make the form filling come first, confirm and then upload the DDP [zipped or RARed for integrity ]
Switch brain back to listening mode
Peter
Post by: blip on March 04, 2010, 05:49:30 PM
I don't have an ETA currently for when these updates will go live, within 1-2 weeks is realistic though.
Post by: TotalSonic on March 04, 2010, 05:52:31 PM
| blip wrote on Thu, 04 March 2010 17:49 |
We'll be making some tweaks to the upload process for DDP masters based on your feedback. What we'll be shooting for is that any info we require will be entered prior to you initiating the upload. Successful completion of the upload will trigger everything on our end. There will be no need for any further confirmations or action on your part after you hit "upload files". I don't have an ETA currently for when these updates will go live, within 1-2 weeks is realistic though. |
Good stuff! Count me as one person who has clients regularly send replication orders to you who also appreciates being able to enter any required info, hit "upload" and then walk away.
Best regards,
Steve Berson