Post by: j.hall on March 11, 2010, 10:43:54 PM
remember guys, keep the submission thread to submissions ONLY. makes it much easier to find submissions, and simply listen to mixes.
Post by: Podgorny on March 11, 2010, 11:01:41 PM
I smiled the ENTIRE time. Evidently someone was too busy stirring things up to be bothered with making sure the snare samples were on every hit.
Everybody else - Great job.
Post by: h2o2 on March 12, 2010, 12:48:57 AM
| Podgorny wrote on Thu, 11 March 2010 22:01 |
Everybody else - Great job. |
LOL
)))so u mean others have placed samples on every hit?
I agree, maybe we should employ westerners in eastern europe to place samples on every hit after our craft is made.
Post by: Gabriel F on March 12, 2010, 12:55:26 AM
I didnt have time to cut the samples and aligning them properly, . Thats not and excuse, but i think i would not have done it if i had the time because my tendinnitis is killing me this week.
Damn, i made the bass too muddy.
Post by: h2o2 on March 12, 2010, 02:46:02 AM
I will concentrate on problems since there will be enough thanksgiving without me...
Greg Dixon:
I hear every single year, uselesly spent on recording to 16 tracks in this mix. Ah thanks god it was just 8 years because 12 years could be much much worse... There could me so many other interesting things to be learned meanwhile...
Mix doesn't have enough definition, snare is bad (what is this pluk pluk?). Vocal too distant. Guitar no attack and mix overally overcompressed.
JHall:
JHall should use only Hall preset in the reverb and never try plate or chamber,(period) NEVER! I don't believe you had just 12 years of experience, this sounded like you have all 20 years or maybe even 30 and you are just about to be retired...
Limiters... oh looks like USA is a country of Limiters...
But limiter is a perfect tool to show just how noisy this mix is..
Isn't that clear that Guitar bite is fighting with vocals?
Guitars are noisome, can you really enjoy that sound? it is so clearly disbalanced and over-presenced what u cannot listen for it more then 1 minute.
Snare transients are destroyed with compressors. Overral lack of punchiness and definition. Too distant and muddy vocal.
Mafigi:
Can be a good mix if not a) Vocal b) Snare.
This is probably a worst snare here. Vocal is behind everything it is even behind backing vocals... Why cymbals are soo close while rest of drums are soo distant?
Nizzle:
Limiters...
Luck of dynamics and guitar attack. A bit unbalancced guitars with too much bite. Overally noisy. Cymbals are too close comparing to snare for example. Vocals are good enough..
Overall luck of punch.
RANKUS:
bad bad bad. over-muddy, flat, no punch.
TELERIC:
Bad snare. Toms are from another universe. noisy. no punch.
grantis:
jhall like guitars. Could be good if vocal wont be that shit..
slash5969:
no punch. muddy lowend.
SRIOU:
same.
ScottFeatherstone:
same.
2pulse:
Too distant, also a bit muddy.
Adam_Miller:
Good drums, i would want a bit more transients on snare (not to drive that hard transient designer, etc) i would put a little more middle frequencies since it is a bit hollow in the middle.
Billybehdaz:
Too distant and muddy. Vocals are good however it is more like a vocals and a mix thing.
DCombs:
jhal like guitars. snare transients are gone...pluck pluck.
DMc:
too much reverb on vocals.
DanDigby:
What are u monitoring on?
Meverylame:
nice warm guitar tone. Drums should have more punch and transients. Abit muddy overally.
Rune:
nice effect on kick. unfortunately after it the mix starts...
pluk pluk snare. Vocals are good however.
The_Straws_RENO:
noisy and no punch but instead is over fatty kick. Looks like just out of McDonalds...
Yoons:
Snare transients... Muddy low end.
gio_fixed:
drums are not fixed however. What is this paper snare?
h2o2:
snare is not replaced on every hit. Ideally there should be two replacing sessions for fast notes and long, I went with just long. bridge before chorus lucks something, there should be some power chords done properly. Could use of some vocal riding and automation.
mkane:
not enough punch. Snare..
revolver9:
McDonalds kick. and muddy base.
southboundloco_mix:
carton snare. Vocal distant.
yoink:
McDonalds kick. too noisy. too much reverb on vocals. Snare no transients.
Fiasco:
it is fiasco...
hallams:
snare is bad. noisy..
iCombs:
u cannot adjust level? snare is destroyed. noisy and muddy.
caintorst:
carton drums, no transients. Too much reverb on vocal.
lluis:
fiasko of sample rate... otherwise could be good, why somebody records 48khz for CD?
Music_Junky:
carton snare. too much cymbals. vocal is distant.
NelsonL:
McDonalds kick. and carton drums. disatant vocal.
b-undo:
snare could use more weight. noisy.
graham:
paper snare. noisy.
Post by: Seb Riou on March 12, 2010, 03:51:26 AM
I will ignore this post as it comes from the most unbalanced, unprofessionnal, and worsely un-rock'n'roll mixes of the lot.
First I'm really grateful to J.Hall and the contributor who gave the tracks, this is priceless for a beginner mixer like me to try and learn with y'all wild bunch. THANKS !
We all agreed, snare and drums in general were a pain in the ass to breathe life into.
Almost everybody (I didn't) replaced the snare, and yeah we have a wide array of sizes and tones
More than the drums, it's the lead vocal that gave me a hard time, It bored me to death ! So I ended up putting this rotary effect that dulled it completely, but I liked this kinda "plastic" !
J.Hall, you succeeded where I failed, vocals sound great and they don't bore me ! Your whole mix is unreal, snare cracks, Kick is huge, space is there, man you rock.. maybe a little hyped ?
Guitars sounded great, it was hard to get them bad. But panning was something else ! 3 guitars, three position (L,C,R). Or maybe not ? ha ha, I liked the different options ..
And the reverb, man the verb is so personal ..
A lot of us must tune our room, I hear tonal shifts (in mine too), and some of us master mastering, some better keeping a low level
I had a very good time mixing and listening to all of your works, I will do it again.
Congrats evryone for the work and let's talk !
Post by: Seb Riou on March 12, 2010, 03:59:29 AM
Post by: Hallams on March 12, 2010, 06:10:43 AM
confession time...i did the mix at 44.1 and after i realized, my mix was done, i was out of the studio so i simply changed the sample rate and bounced the mp3
most of the mix translated ok but for the lows....couldn't help but thinking the original recording had the vari speed wound up a notch.
Post by: h2o2 on March 12, 2010, 06:47:53 AM
| Seb Riou wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 02:59 |
Oh yeah, one thing I forgot. What really made a difference between the mixes are vocal placement. Some made it really wide and come up front. Since it's an Indie Mixing Project, that kinda surprised. In indy rock I always see (hear) the vocals in the mix, almost behind the snare, and surrounded by a wall of guitars. That's what I tried to do, and yeah I know that's what J.Hall achieved ! |
Nothing should be surprising here...
there is just a bunch of kids here. Who decided among themself that they are somebody they are not. The worst thing they honestly believe they are professional mixing engineers.
C'mon get to the ground finally...
Post by: h2o2 on March 12, 2010, 06:51:16 AM
| Hallams wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 05:10 |
Well H2... thanks for the insights, but i think the bottom end in my mix is more of a problem than the snare....on ordinary playback systems i didn't pick it up but when i played my mix back in the studio i think it could be wound back in the low end a bit. One thing for sure, you really are flying blind to some elements in the mix if your monitoring is not up to scratch.... confession time...i did the mix at 44.1 and after i realized, my mix was done, i was out of the studio so i simply changed the sample rate and bounced the mp3 most of the mix translated ok but for the lows....couldn't help but thinking the original recording had the vari speed wound up a notch. |
I was just very lazy to write duplicate things, since most of the mixes had that problem. Most detailed are the first 5 reviews.
Post by: Chris Ilett on March 12, 2010, 06:56:00 AM
Post by: johnR on March 12, 2010, 08:06:12 AM
| h2o2 wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 11:47 |
The worst thing they honestly believe they are professional mixing engineers. |
The fact that most of them are paid good money by satisfied customers for their mixes is perhaps what leads them to believe that. How about you?
Post by: h2o2 on March 12, 2010, 08:15:12 AM
| johnR wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 07:06 | ||
The fact that most of them are paid good money by satisfied customers for their mixes is perhaps what leads them to believe that. How about you? |
Taking into account variety of customers and variety of ppl out there and especially knowing that loudness war there or even just average customer level of education and understanding i would say thet is a VERY VERY weak argument... and professionalism of mixing engineer does the faaar less difference then professionalism of talking shit and making PR for the customer... also alot of customers are happy with bad records. they just make this as a hobby or to show to the friends, etc.
I won't comment anymore any point about money or ROI because of that is a way too boring... ppl who use that point are small and grey...
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on March 12, 2010, 08:16:51 AM
I can't wait till you are banned, so we all can go back to sucking in peace.
Post by: johnR on March 12, 2010, 08:36:13 AM
| h2o2 wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 13:15 |
Taking into account variety of customers and variety of ppl out there and especially knowing that loudness war there or even just average customer level of education and understanding i would say thet is a VERY VERY weak argument... and professionalism of mixing engineer does the faaar less difference then professionalism of talking shit and making PR for the customer... also alot of customers are happy with bad records. they just make this as a hobby or to show to the friends, etc. I won't comment anymore any point about money or ROI because of that is a way too boring... ppl who use that point are small and grey... |
Have you considered a career in politics? With your obviously well developed ability to evade direct questions you could go far.
Post by: Gio on March 12, 2010, 08:59:22 AM
Just a friendly disclaimer..... The name of my file is in no way meant to come off as cocky, or imply that I fixed the tracks in any way. The original mix I uploaded had a severe L-R imbalance (or so I thought). Turns out my 4yr old had been playing with the balance control on the computer I use for internet. lol! hence, the file name "gio_fixed".
I hope we get some constructive and useful discussion going here. I'm not too interested in troll feeding.
And thanks to J. for doing this.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.....
<eats popcorn>
Post by: Reno on March 12, 2010, 09:24:38 AM
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Now I wait for the reviews made by people with ears...
I will do mine the w-e
Post by: yoink on March 12, 2010, 09:41:04 AM
In case anyone hasn't looked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLd-XbPwSN8
I wish I knew this particular band we're mixing (I probably missed that)... I would check out some of their other work.
About the mixing: I tried to give myself a two hour time-limit (and failed) it ended up being a three and a half hour thing. I find lately, if I don't do that I will fiddle and twiddle all day.
Post by: bblackwood on March 12, 2010, 09:44:24 AM
Back to IMP24...
Post by: Daniel Farris on March 12, 2010, 09:56:37 AM
For those of you with the horsepower to do so, I highly recommend this: I imported all of the mixes into a single PT session, lined them up, turned off solo latch, did a quick level match, and then ran the song in a loop, going down the console and soloing various mixes, without knowing whose mix I was hearing.
Wow. Never mind balance choices; some of the overall tonal differences are staggering. The people who have obvious problems with monitoring/room tuning were instantly obvious.
I'm still listening, so I don't have detailed critiques, but I really love listening to them like this.
DF
Post by: j.hall on March 12, 2010, 10:06:09 AM
thanks for keeping an eye on this for me Brad, appreciate it!!
i'll start doing reviews today. looks like i also need to go look at my mix again to answer some questions.
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on March 12, 2010, 10:24:26 AM
| Daniel Farris wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 09:56 |
So, this is the first time I've listened to all the IMP submissions in quite this way, and it's been very revealing. For those of you with the horsepower to do so, I highly recommend this: I imported all of the mixes into a single PT session, lined them up, turned off solo latch, did a quick level match, and then ran the song in a loop, going down the console and soloing various mixes, without knowing whose mix I was hearing. Wow. Never mind balance choices; some of the overall tonal differences are staggering. The people who have obvious problems with monitoring/room tuning were instantly obvious. I'm still listening, so I don't have detailed critiques, but I really love listening to them like this. DF |
I do basically the same thing, except I use Cubase... so it probably sounds different.
Post by: 2pulse on March 12, 2010, 10:41:06 AM
Once thing I noticed.... NO ONE panned the intro guitar to the right of center. I was never conciously aware of this convention, but apparently I adhere to it.
Post by: Daniel Farris on March 12, 2010, 10:50:01 AM
| 2pulse wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 07:41 |
Once thing I noticed.... NO ONE panned the intro guitar to the right of center. I was never conciously aware of this convention, but apparently I adhere to it. |
I noticed that too.
I frequently pan intro guitars (or whatever) to the right. I just went left this time, for no real reason.
(EDIT: Hang on a minute! Spike went to the right with it.)
DF
Post by: DCombs on March 12, 2010, 12:50:12 PM
| h2o2 wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 05:47 | ||
Nothing should be surprising here... there is just a bunch of kids here. Who decided among themself that they are somebody they are not. The worst thing they honestly believe they are professional mixing engineers. C'mon get to the ground finally... |
okay, seriously? dude if you called what you did professional mixing...i'm sorry you've missed your mark. your entire mix was weak, and boring. don't worry it will be duly noted
also, i know this would be an extra step, could we make teams of people who review their own stuff? i feel like it would be a way to allow for people to make critiques, then make fixes then critique again?
the only reason i bring it up is because just posting a single song once isn't learning or helping. it's the process of refining that makes you learn. does anyone else agree?
Post by: DCombs on March 12, 2010, 12:58:11 PM
| 2pulse wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 09:41 |
Big variety! Lots of creative edits, some work some don't. I'll have to do my reviews in installments, as listening to 30 versions of the same track is quite a test of endurance. Once thing I noticed.... NO ONE panned the intro guitar to the right of center. I was never conciously aware of this convention, but apparently I adhere to it. |
i think it was due to the track lay out. it allows for alternative panning methods, but it's as if the song already had mix decisions already built into the track layout. and in that sense everyone caught on, and mixed instinctively. the only thing that got paned in my session was the rhythm guitars, toms, and cymbals.
the engineer really did his work when packaging this up.
much kudos.
Post by: jonathan jetter on March 12, 2010, 02:04:08 PM
i wasn't able to find time to get my mix done- this would have been my first IMP submission and it would have been a lot of fun to throw my work up there. unfortunately my schedule got nuts and today would have been the day where i would have had time to do it.
hoping it's kosher for me to comment despite not having submitted-
tracking i thought was pretty solid. drums were maybe slightly harsh and guitars a bit wooly but nothing complicated to fix.
i downloaded about 10 of the mixes and listened just now.
i don't want to name specific names but several were very thin, excessively hi-passed, and poorly compressed. several others were very muddy. i do think it becomes apparent who has accurate monitoring and who doesn't.
i thought DMc's mix was quite good, and along the lines of what i would want to hear out of the track. i'd have gone for a drier vocal treatment but that's just subjective preference on my end.
super-cool of J. to facilitate this and i'm looking forward to participating in the next one.
Post by: mafigi on March 12, 2010, 02:43:35 PM
| h2o2 wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 08:46 |
Mafigi: Can be a good mix if not a) Vocal b) Snare. This is probably a worst snare here. Vocal is behind everything it is even behind backing vocals... Why cymbals are soo close while rest of drums are soo distant? |
Hello, thanks for listening and for the advice, the snare is the original track, what you hear is the best I could do with that snare drum, there's nothing to trigger in the drums mix, and the voice I loved so how I did it.
Thanks more.
Post by: j.hall on March 12, 2010, 03:28:14 PM
Greg Dixon
good mix. i feel like the bass is a touch too "round". vocals are nice. for my taste, i'd want to hear the drums be more aggressive (not easy with the tracks, i know). but overall, this is a good mix.
mcsnare
ah, the apprentice critiques the mentor......MUW HA HA HA HA. well honestly, there isn't much to say. it's your typical vibey, yet appropriate treatment. i didn't dig the slap on the guitars until the band kicked in, then i totally got it and loved it. bass feels a bit forward, but that's nit picking.
caintorst
i get the idea of the verb to give it that "throw-back" feel. i think the verb is kinda honky. probably an easy tweak. bass feels thin and mixed back. good wall of guitar, and it's balanced well with the vocal. your top end is a little sizzley for me, but you did a great job balancing it.
NelsonL
holy lowend batman. what are they doing to you over there in Dubai? that bottom end is swallowing your mix alive. listening around it, there are some really cool things going on here. that vocal delay is nicely placed.
Will F
the intro felt weird, mainly the kick drum, but once it kicks in it makes more sense. not sure what that means to you, but whatever. feels pretty bright to me, but it's balanced so mastering could probably line this out. bass feels forward. tone is good, maybe just a touch hot. BGV's are really hot for my taste, but i dig the treatment. separates them from the lead.
Seb Riou
LOWEND!!! wonder if you have an acoustics issue. the bottom is HUGE, top is ducked. vocal feels quiet and a bit dark. if you tamed that bottom down you'd probably have something pretty cool. guitars feel good to me.
Hallamas
pretty good. that snare samples is not my cup of tea. the vocal doesn't match the top end of the snare and guitars, whatever that means to you, i always try to match that. the verb is a bit shimery for my taste as well. toms feel good, that's often an overlooked detail.
Music Junky
tons of verb, HUGE low end, too huge, though the mix is REALLY bright as well. this isn't far off. if you hype up the right things, and tuck back that verb you'd be rockin.
yoons
mix is kinda dark. cymbals are bright though, so mastering would have a tough time. bass feels kinda honky to me and vocals are mixed back a bit for my taste. if you pushed a few key things around this would be solid. that snare pops a little too hard for me, if that's possible, HA!
yoink
this mix feels good to me. it's a bit midrangey overall, but mastering might fix that. the snare sample is not my bag. doesn't have much impact. the low end is a bit too big. guitars could probably stand a level bump, but this mix is "recallable". good job.
slash5969
this is really dark, lowend is all over the place. the guitars are really good. they need more top (whole mix does). man that kick drum is just shaking my room. most of this mix feels like EQ issues.
grantis
really WIDE. wonder how you did that.......(sarcasm) overall pretty thin. more verb then i would use, but the verb sounds good at least. first mix i've heard that has noticeable "lift" in the chorus. nice!
Adam Miller
man, i always dig your submissions. this feels like that first bloc party record. this is more present, and not quite as quirky, but the vibe is there. this mix might be a touch midrangey, but i dig it. cool treatment, i was hoping to hear one like this.
Nizzle
guitars are great, nice job. drums feel a touch hollow to me, bass to. sounds like a vibe you went for intentionally though. there is something 500-ish overall that's weighing this mix down. i think it's specifically the bass guitar. good submission.
page 1 complete. page 2 will be later.
Post by: Scott Featherstone on March 12, 2010, 03:49:32 PM
THANK YOU Mr. Blackwood.
Loved hearing everyone's mixes !
I have alot to learn from this forum
Post by: NelsonL on March 12, 2010, 04:10:47 PM
| j.hall wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 12:28 |
for my reviews i'll only listen to the intro, verse and 1st chorus. KNOW that when reading. if you did anything "fancy" past that point, i'll never hear it. NelsonL holy lowend batman. what are they doing to you over there in Dubai? that bottom end is swallowing your mix alive. listening around it, there are some really cool things going on here. that vocal delay is nicely placed. |
Ha! I was afraid that might happen.
Apparently supporting my wife's career has given me a swollen bottom.
You just convinced me to buy better headphones though.
Post by: grantis on March 12, 2010, 09:06:47 PM
| NelsonL wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 15:10 | ||
Ha! I was afraid that might happen. Apparently supporting my wife's career has given me a swollen bottom. You just convinced me to buy better headphones though. |
Sennheiser HD-580's, if you can find em.
Post by: caintorst on March 13, 2010, 02:58:33 AM
To be critical of my own mix after hearing the rest as a side-by-side:
I did definitely drop the ball on the bass and specifically the low-end of the bass. No real excuse for that, maybe my monitoring situation or just a bad balance call.
The verb was indeed a little thick, perhaps, or I failed to get a good overall balance with it.
My high-end was still a touch sizzley, as Mr. Hall pointed out. While I rolled back the high-end on the drum overheads, which I felt was pretty harsh, I left perhaps a bit much in the high-hat -- I did like, though, having it forward a bit to get some interplay with the tambourine.
After hearing Mr. Hall, Graham and Mcsnare work with the tambourine, I think I didn't do it a great deal of justice with regard the power it had to lift the chorus.
I thoroughly enjoyed the overall feel of mcsnare's mix, the mono slapback vocal delay was perhaps more what I myself should have gone with to acheive, again, that throw-back kind of feel vs. what I myself ended up with.
I also was pretty impressed with Adam Miller's mix as a whole, it feels pretty solid, maybe a touch much on the high-end of the bass, but I think it's just a matter of personal taste there.
More impressions to come as I continue to listen, it's a bit hard being critical of other engineers and their mixes as a new guy to the forum, so I'm trying to ease into it.
Post by: caintorst on March 13, 2010, 03:02:13 AM
Thanks!
Post by: Seb Riou on March 13, 2010, 06:30:52 AM
| j.hall wrote on Fri, 12 March 2010 21:28 |
Seb Riou LOWEND!!! wonder if you have an acoustics issue. the bottom is HUGE, top is ducked. vocal feels quiet and a bit dark. if you tamed that bottom down you'd probably have something pretty cool. guitars feel good to me. |
I think you're right, something wrong with my room here. I always thought it had a 125 Hz bump but never care to treat, so got used to mix with a bassy sound (Focals Solo 6Be w/o sub here). Lately clients recalled for more kick and bass, so I guess I tried to mix with an over lowish environment, and lost perspective !
Time for a real room tuning, for high ends too.
It's funny cos at first I dug mixes that sounded close to mine (Nelson L. I loved yours !) before realising we were in the bushes ..
When I listened carefully to Yoink's, J.'s, and Adam Miller's, I was like "Duh ! THEY got it Right".
Great lesson..
Post by: NelsonL on March 13, 2010, 09:02:00 AM
| Seb Riou wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 03:30 | ||
I think you're right, something wrong with my room here. I always thought it had a 125 Hz bump but never care to treat, so got used to mix with a bassy sound (Focals Solo 6Be w/o sub here). Lately clients recalled for more kick and bass, so I guess I tried to mix with an over lowish environment, and lost perspective ! Time for a real room tuning, for high ends too. It's funny cos at first I dug mixes that sounded close to mine (Nelson L. I loved yours !) before realising we were in the bushes .. When I listened carefully to Yoink's, J.'s, and Adam Miller's, I was like "Duh ! THEY got it Right". Great lesson.. |
Here something that can be instructive: put on a track you know well and that you know to sound great.
Try moving from mix position to the back of your room. Listen to how (possibly) the low end changes. You might actually be sitting right where some sort of cancellation is particularly nasty.
Post by: Seb Riou on March 13, 2010, 10:05:45 AM
funny you say that, cos there's a spot near the entrance door that's got BIG subs. I always figured it was a build up with a corner wall, I gues I was wrong. Could I have both a 125/140 Hz bump and a 60/80 Hz dip at mix pos?
Nevermind, analyser is on its way for an accurate measure !
Thanks for the tip
Post by: NelsonL on March 13, 2010, 10:15:00 AM
| Seb Riou wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 07:05 |
Hi Nelson, funny you say that, cos there's a spot near the entrance door that's got BIG subs. I always figured it was a build up with a corner wall, I gues I was wrong. Could I have both a 125/140 Hz bump and a 60/80 Hz dip at mix pos? Nevermind, analyser is on its way for an accurate measure ! Thanks for the tip |
I don't really know enough to make any assumptions about what might be going on in your room. It's just a phenomena I've observed in a few completed rooms and on a buildout that I helped with.
But I think yes, you can have both a null and a build up in different bands. I should leave this stuff to the experts though. Maybe a good idea for a new thread?
Post by: grantis on March 13, 2010, 10:16:33 AM
Post by: bblackwood on March 13, 2010, 10:23:28 AM
| grantis wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 09:16 |
If I remember correctly...a 60 hz wave is about 3 feet long. |
Speed of sound - 1130 ft/sec @ nominal temperature (20C).
1130fps/60Hz = ~19' wavelength.
A 3' wavelength would occur at a frequency of about ~380Hz.
Post by: grantis on March 13, 2010, 10:33:07 AM
| bblackwood wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 09:23 | ||
Speed of sound - 1130 ft/sec @ nominal temperature (20C). 1130fps/60Hz = ~19' wavelength. A 3' wavelength would occur at a frequency of about ~380Hz. |
So....what you're saying is...I remembered wrong.
That's good info. I had no idea 60 hz was so long.
Post by: Daniel Farris on March 13, 2010, 10:39:32 AM
DF
Post by: bblackwood on March 13, 2010, 11:55:11 AM
| Daniel Farris wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 09:39 |
So remember... always mic a bass amp or bass drum from at *least* 19 feet away. |
Haha, indeed. Kinda shows those "room is long enough to support X frequency" claims made by some to be incorrect. That and headphones...
Post by: Seb Riou on March 13, 2010, 01:03:22 PM
Hello Daniel, I liked your submission (the "second liking"), a nice solid mix, and you kept the original snare didn't you ?
Post by: NelsonL on March 13, 2010, 02:43:48 PM
| bblackwood wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 08:55 |
That and headphones... |
I know, I know... weak sauce. I just don't want to buy anything that won't fit in a suitcase.
Post by: mcsnare on March 13, 2010, 02:52:59 PM
Seriously, I've found over the years that the interaction between the mixer and client is important to get a great mix. We (the mixers) should go for it and get crazy, then the artists either like it, want it crazier, or want to tone down some aspect. Or all of the above. I always like to hear what the artists' reaction is and I know from experience whatever I do on my own will not be as cool as the final mix which is a process of give and take. Which is to say that part of being a good mixer is to not get massively attached to every decision that you make.
I think most of the mixes that people did on this tune are pretty good. Better overall than some of the IMPs in the past. I think J.'s analysis of each submission is pretty right on, and I don't think I'd have a lot to add that he hasn't already said.
Dave
Post by: rankus on March 13, 2010, 03:10:38 PM
Great post Dave! I agree 110%... the longer I do this the more I realize that the artists input is VERY important at the final stage of a mix. Always makes for a better mix imo.
Also in agreement with J's comments. Spot on!
From iPhone
Post by: Nizzle on March 13, 2010, 03:11:33 PM
| mcsnare wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 11:52 |
Why y'all gotta be hatin' on my slap? |
Awww, goo.
Post by: Greg Dixon on March 13, 2010, 04:28:01 PM
| mcsnare wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 06:52 |
Why y'all gotta be hatin' on my slap? Seriously, I've found over the years that the interaction between the mixer and client is important to get a great mix. We (the mixers) should go for it and get crazy, then the artists either like it, want it crazier, or want to tone down some aspect. Or all of the above. I always like to hear what the artists' reaction is and I know from experience whatever I do on my own will not be as cool as the final mix which is a process of give and take. Which is to say that part of being a good mixer is to not get massively attached to every decision that you make. I think most of the mixes that people did on this tune are pretty good. Better overall than some of the IMPs in the past. I think J.'s analysis of each submission is pretty right on, and I don't think I'd have a lot to add that he hasn't already said. Dave |
This is why I like to start the mix by myself. It maximizes the client input by letting them hear it fresh. I take it as far as I can and then we finish it together and take it to the next level.
Some clients worry that they won't like mix I do without them, but I don't think I've ever had them tell me I'd gone in the wrong direction.
Post by: Adam Miller on March 13, 2010, 07:30:09 PM
Greg Dixon - Good balance- snare drum feels a bit too weak, if there's sample in there it needs more balls. The level of and upper mid in the guitars interferes with the lead vox slightly; otherwise, I think the vocal treatment would be pretty spot on.
McSnare- I'm gonna hate a little on the slap as well I'm afraid! A great balance otherwise though... The snare could have been a bit more bombastic for my taste, but that is just my taste. Otherwise, everything sits really well. Wish I had made more of the tambourine in my mix, it works really well here. Good guitars.
Caintorst- A bit mid heavy, and too much on the verb are my first impressions. It all feels a bit too overblown- a bit too much compression without enough finesse. A combo of overly loud gtrs, the tonality and the verb gives an unflattering perspective to the mix when the track goes into the chorus for me.
NelsonL - Lack of ambience in the intro makes the vibe seems too clean and separated for me. Guitars are a bit thin and scratchy, and the bass is too subby- it all makes for a bit of a tonal disconnect between the two. The drums also need more work here- they need to provide the backbone of the track, because at the moment it's quite guitar driven, and that gets a bit samey after 3 minutes!
WillF - Another one with slightly thin, scratchy guitars. The printed gtr sounds were fine, but they need a bit more 'bending' to really have enough size to do the track justice. BVs too high- higher in spots than the lead! It's ok- but the rhythm just needs more balls to go to the next level.
SebRiou- Big disjoin between the sub and the rest of the mix. The midrange drive of the track- the snare, the front edge of the guitars, the attack of the vocal- it all needs to come forward and have more punch, at the moment it feels a bit like I'm listening with a cold. The tonality of the vocal also feels a bit pinched here- and is there some kind of modulation effect that's blurring the center of the vox slightly in the image? The mix just needs to assert itself with a bit more confidence.
Hallams - I can tell from the intro that this feels too overblown on the compression front. It makes it sound a bit cheap and fizzy- and the snare sample doesn't help too much, feels like it's been brutally hipassed. Like how the vocal sits in the chorus though- it's a hard one to nail, to work out which aesthetic is right for a track and pursue it with confidence. The attitude is good in this one, it's the individual sounds that don't match it.
Music Junky - Cheap reverb. You can't skimp on verb, it's just one of those things that needs the expensive shit, unfortunately. Guitars are too far forward, at the expense if everything else. The snare is the weakest sound printed to tape, so it really needs some help here- no amount of eq or compression or mega plugin is going to help it like the right sample will.
Yoons - Thin. The guitars need some work here- they sound a bit scratchy, but also tubby as well, and they tread on the rest of the mix a little. Snare is crying out for some love again. The chorus should just swagger more than it does- your mix doesn't do justice to the rhythm of it.
Yoink - OK... bright, but I'm kind of digging the vibe. It has the right attitude, but not quite the right tonality. Too heavy on the hat, and I wish there was a bit more ambience on everything. Guitars are treading on the vocal again... it shouldn't be a pop vocal mix, but it still needs to be there at the front. Dynamically, the mix needs a bit more push and pull between the different sections, because the compression has flattened that out.
Slash - Monster sub. In this context, it actually robs the bass+kick of a lot of energy- in this kind of track i hear the kick and bass as being a little leaner down below and a little punchier in the mid bass region. Guitars are treading on everything again... the hi end feels very muted in comparison... it's a shame, because behind that, I think I like where you're going with the drums, but it's hard to tell!
Grantis - Ok, these drums are a bit more like it. The execution is lacking in finesse... the sample kind of just 'sits' there... but the attitude is getting closer to the ballpark. Feels like a bit of phase jizz throwing the guitars out really wide? Maybe a bit too much in a track like this. Compression is OTT overall, and the tonality is bright... this is tiring to listen to for long. But the attitude is getting there.
Nizzle - Woah, too slammed... Makes want to turn it down... then down some more. Down this low, it's got quite good balance! Vocal sits better than some others. Drums have something approaching the right level of bombast, they just need more control along with it. I like the tambourine in the choruses. It's just suffering from a compression overdose, that's all. It actually gets quieter towards the end when everything's playing!
Jhall - Good attitude. I'd say it's a bit too bright and 'tacky' for want of a better word- the front end on the drums feels a bit too artificial for a straightforward old-school rock band. The vocal also feels slightly thin- it doesn't quite take command like it should for my taste. Otherwise- the balance is great, although I'd say the compression is a bit overbaked, but that's just a personal thing. The overall size of the mix is right where it needs to be.
Rune- No on the intro. Doesn't work. Past that- it actually ramps up better. There's a balance problem here- the sub bass is too OTT. Again, the snare can't stand on it's own, it needs help! Vocal is too forward in this one- it's tough to get right- but the mix between vocal and guitar feels a little messy here. Perhaps bolder panning on the guits to open up the center a little?
Southboundloco - Something about the bass sound is fishy, can't work out what. The balance is ok, but the individual sounds need to be worked on- they're all weak. Actually perhaps the vocal is quite cool- it's a good treatment. But it's obscured by the rest- feels like the compression is treading on things here.
Graham - ok, cool, nice balance. It's nice to hear something not blasted with compression, although this has gone too far the other way- It's too polite. Snare in particular needs more oomph. It's all fine- but it's not sexy enough.... Gtr solo should be down the middle, unless it's multitracked.
Revolver9 - Lowend feels like I'm in front of a bassbin at Carnival. Top feels like it's all happening at 12k and upwards... that's RnB breath region, not rock'n'roll! Frequency extremes aside, I reckon the balance is actually quite good- it just feels like a big smiley face is over the mix bus. Cutting the drums isn't doing for me I'm afraid.
Rankus - Intro reverb feels a bit cheap. It's all quite thin and bright... not so sure about the vocal slap. Balance is there, and it's compressed well- it just doesn't hit me like it should. Partial vibe castration for want of a better term... the chorus swaggers like it should though.
Magfigi - STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPRESSOR!! It's so flattened and distorted, I can't hear past that, sorry!
Reno - I think I dig the intro with no kick. Good balance. Guitars are a bit scratchy. Drums are too thin, and could benefit from more room. The vocal is too upfront, and sounds a bit pinched- makes him sound like he's just eaten a four cheese pizza. It ain't bad though.
Dcombs - A warmer tonality which I like... but the guitar sounds are a bit whiney though- I think a bit of notching might sort that out. Drums are suffering from a testosterone shortage- not bad, but not rawk either. Vocal a bit weak, but overall it's a decent mix.
Gio - Weak drums. Again, the rest of the mix suffers at the expense of the guitars. It's ok- but it needs to sound more expensive and fuller.
Teleric- Ok... It's not bad. Feels like an awkward scoop somewhere in the midrange. Guits sound a bit jangly, not ballsy like they should. Drums need more work, but again not bad- maybe just a bit more level in the mix. I quite like the overall attitude though.
Fiasco - Loadsa bass, loadsa top, it's missing the middle. Drums are bad.... you need to put more effort in! Guits and vox are ok... it's hard to get over the tonal imbalances though.
ScottFeatherstone- Did you notch out a massive wedge of mids somewhere? Feels like I went to a MBV gig last night! Again, it's hard to get past this... i think if I did, the mix actually ain't too bad... heavy on the hihat though.
b-undo - Cool- good attitude. Execution is a bit sloppy- drums are thin, and the compression is not 100% there, but it's alright. Good guitar sounds actually- the printed sounds were ok, but not stellar- you've taken them up a notch. It just needs the drums to match that.
Billybehdaz - drum verb is distracting. Too much compression of the wrong sort. All feels a bit forced as a result of that. Balance is a bit off- the drums need to be higher and more present.
DanielFarris - Sounds muffled up top. Good rhythm sounds though. The guitars jarr a little... the rhythm tracks are lacking in bite, the gtr melody track is too jangly. The mix is ok, it just feels closed in because of the top end.
2pulse - good attitude. Drums need more work again. Guits treading on stuff... they rob the track of its rhythmic pulse at this level... although it probably wouldn't be an issue if the drums were augmented with some kick ass samples.
iCombs - Thin, really thin. Almost feels like no matter how loud I turned it up, it would never sound loud. Correct the tonal problems, and it's probably quite a decent balance.
Meverylame - Like the mids on the intro guits- the top end just needs to be opened up. it's ok, but everything just doesn't hang together that well. Again, drums need more oomph.
Spike - bottom end is thin and bit pinched, but the balance is pretty good. Jangly guit melody bits are a bit distracting. The mix as a whole needs to be a bit bolder and assertive- harder panning with the guitars, more punch with the drums. Do I hear some sample flamming on the snare fills? Kick needs work to make it punch as well. Overall vibe is cool though. Whereabouts do you work?
GabrielF - Muffled top. The overall tonality is a bit weird, and the guitars need a little sorting out- but past that I reckon this has the potential to be quite a cool mix. Definitely a different take from most others.
Iluis - I don't understand why people track at 48k for a CD release either, but they do, so you need to watch out for it! I quite like the vocal down here though...
And that's my ears gone for the evening! Thanks to Podgorny for putting this up, I'd be interested to hear his mix... I'd also like to know what Jhall and McSnare are mixing on these days- these were the best mixes for me- I'd also be interested to hear how long you both spent on your mixes!
Ta
Ad
Post by: grantis on March 13, 2010, 07:49:23 PM
| Quote: |
Grantis - Ok, these drums are a bit more like it. The execution is lacking in finesse... the sample kind of just 'sits' there... but the attitude is getting closer to the ballpark. Feels like a bit of phase jizz throwing the guitars out really wide? Maybe a bit too much in a track like this. Compression is OTT overall, and the tonality is bright... this is tiring to listen to for long. But the attitude is getting there. |
Thanks for the review. I definitely agree the guitars are too thin and bright, but the mix overall is too bright? I guess I'd have to ask specifically....what else is too bright (instrument-wise)?
Post by: Gabriel F on March 13, 2010, 09:55:24 PM
I agree the hi end sounds muffled. Half on purpouse because i went for a warm kinda 70s vibe and the other half because i could not make the cymbals crisp and nice, i boosted everywhere with every plug in i had and could not found something that worked. Now that i think i would try with the sonnox inflator and see if it creates a nice hi end.
I did a quick listen of some mixes and i a cuple souns pretty good but i dont quite like the direction took by most of them. So far I like mcsnares the best but too me this song screamed for some 80s vibe drums (but not cheesy and overdone) and not the snappy drums and modern sound everyone went.
Post by: rankus on March 13, 2010, 10:21:14 PM
| Adam Miller wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 16:30 |
Rankus - Intro reverb feels a bit cheap. It's all quite thin and bright... not so sure about the vocal slap. Balance is there, and it's compressed well- it just doesn't hit me like it should. Partial vibe castration for want of a better term... the chorus swaggers like it should though. |
Thanks Adam! Ya the verb on rhythm gtrs is a Bricasti Impulse in Waves IR... Not understanding why folks are talking that up... I usually use IMP to experiment with new toys like that... Lack of vibe may be due to to much smashy with my new Api 2500 toy.. I was pushing the limit of good taste on her for sure
I dug your mix a lot too!
Also intersted in what J and Dave are mixing on and how long... Mine: Nuendo ITB/ summing through my Toft ATB with Api 2500 on the 2bus .. Prolly 2.5 hrs total .... Pretty slammed with gigs so had to do this around midnight!
Post by: grantis on March 14, 2010, 12:48:41 AM
Overall, I think everybody continues to improve and this IMP showed it. Lots of mixes had decent energy and a good vibe to call their own. Well done everybody.
If I missed your mix...let me know.
2pulse
Lacks power. Guitars are nice and loud, could stand to hear more of the vocal, or at least have it more up in my face. A little flat overall
Adam Miller
Nice balance, although vocal is a bit loud compared to guitars, probably easily fixed by turning vocal down, guitars are fine where they are with everything else. Could use more breath on snare. Good energy overall.
B-Undo
Beefy...maybe too much. Balances feel good overall. Drums lack a little power, maybe the bass is swallowing them. Chorus is lackluster. Not bad though.
Billybehdaz
Seems a bit scooped? Badly needs more powerful drum samples, and drums turned up overall. No lift in chorus.
. Caintorst
Honky. Kinda thin too. Huge lack of energy. balance feels alright, just not much vibe here.
DanDigby
Reminds me of IMP10, when I took 8 db off my 2buss with the Massey CT4. Ouch. Thin, pinched, tinny...all of the above. Turn your sub down.
Daniel Farris
A bit dark, but good energy. Low end maybe a bit out of control too. Balance feels good. Like how the vocals sit.
DCombs
Nice. Good energy, good balance. Drums need more power. Chorus needs a lift.
McSnare
Dlaaaaaaay. Wurd. You got vibe. Balance feels good. No lift in chorus? hmmmm....
Falamix
Boom.
Fiasco
Good energy....kinda tricked me since your mix is quiet...but once i turned it up...good stuff. bass is boomy tho. guitars are a bit dark. overall not bad.
Gabriel F
Honky, and the vocal is a bit buried. Guitars are hurting me....not too bright, just honky. Drums need power.
Gio
Good guitar balance, need a lot more vibe out of the drums though. Where's the bass?
Graham
Dry...except the vocal. Interesting choice. Snare is thin. Guitars are OK...
Grantis
Guitars thin. Overall decent vibe...lack of execution. A bit "baked" as they say. The stereo thingamajigger got weird on me....or I used it wrong......
Greg Dixon
Reggae style snare. Interesting. Guitars are alright, just kinda dark. Lacks energy overall.
H202
Who the hell cares
Hallams
If not for the super thin papery snare, this would be one of my faves thus far....
iCombs
Pretty good. Snare is a bit thin, but the balance is good. Could use more bottom on the kick drum. Good energy overall.
J Hall
The padiwan reviews the Jedi...so that would make skidd.......YODA? Balances are great, guitars are nice and thick. Did you build a double for the guitars?
LLuis
I don't get it
Mafigi
COOL intro. Very nice idea. Overall the drums are very indie rock, but I want more power out of them. Sounds like the snare is all overheads....guitars are a bit honky
Meverylame
LPF on whole mix?
Mkane
Like the drum verb. This is pretty good. good energy, drums feel good, guitars are nice and loud. cool
MSTR 4
Feels like i'm in the room. I love how loud the bass is. Somewhat dominates the guitars though. Vocal is a bit dark.
Music Junky
Sounds a bit filtered. Drums are distant and honky
NelsonL
Like the energy. Low end is a bit off....like...too big. Guitars are cool, and vocal is placed nicely. Not bad.
Nizzle
Like the compression, just a bit much (even for me, who always overbakes stuff). Seems a bit squeezed in the mids so there's not much breathing going on in the mix.
Rankus
Keep that Toft. This sounds good. I love the energy. Kick is a bit loud (or just too clicky), and vocal delay is a bit much for me, but that's just taste.
Reno
Good power. The vocal just about took my head off though. Turn it down and back off the deep subs and this is a good mix.
Revolver
Turn your sub up.
Rune
A wash of honk and verb. Vocal is too loud, guitars are too quiet, drums lack power.
ScottFeatherstone
Scooped out and distant. Maybe intentional, but inappropriate for my taste. This is just a big rock tune, needs more agression, and mids.
Slash5969
Bottom too big, no high mids. Fix those and this mix isn't bad. Good energy.
Southboundloco
Like the guitar edit, make sure to do your fades though....clickin and poppin. Good energy, guitars are honky. Vocal feels nice.
Spike
intro Guitar Panned right of center!!!! Well done (only since nobody thus far did it). Other than that, this mix is lackluster. Vocal too loud, drums distant, guitars quiet.
SRIOU
Weird phase thing with the vocal...dunno if I like it. Seems to bury the vocal. Decent energy, drums need more impact. Mix is dark overall.
Teleric
Nice mix, a bit generic, but decent power. Vocal is pretty loud, makes me want more guitar.
WillF
Cool power. I like the snare sound. Dry and in my face. Very ska of you. vocal is kinda boring. bgv's too loud. rebalance this a bit and it's good
Yoink
Mix off balance to the left. Decent vibe, I really want that right guitar panned hard right though. Vocal sits pretty well.
Yoons
Kind of narrow, I suppose it's OK. Snare sticks out a bit, I want it to sit better. Vocal is being swalled by narrow guitars.
Post by: meverylame on March 14, 2010, 01:16:16 AM
| Adam Miller wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 19:30 |
Meverylame - Like the mids on the intro guits- the top end just needs to be opened up. it's ok, but everything just doesn't hang together that well. Again, drums need more oomph. |
Yeah, I mixed it a little last minute over my dinner break. Shows.... Bleh.
Post by: Spike on March 14, 2010, 03:29:03 AM
| Adam Miller wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 18:30 |
Spike - bottom end is thin and bit pinched, but the balance is pretty good. Jangly guit melody bits are a bit distracting. The mix as a whole needs to be a bit bolder and assertive- harder panning with the guitars, more punch with the drums. Do I hear some sample flamming on the snare fills? Kick needs work to make it punch as well. Overall vibe is cool though. Whereabouts do you work? |
The Way Studio, over near London Fields... but at the moment I'm in NYC doing nothing but pop/rap sessions which is a far cry from the rock and jazz back home, probably why I'm a bit rusty
Thanks for the comments, I'm curious as to the "harder panning" comment as the rhythm guitars are panned 100 % left and right! As for the sample flamming.. the samples are placed correctly but since I knocked this out about an hour between sessions I didn't get round to automating the samples to match the levels of the original, giving that lovely artificial drum machine-gun fill feel and flams with both hits at the same level. Also it means that the reverb (which is where most of the sample is going to) is fed too hard off the sample, making it sound like the sample is misplaced...
I know that you were asking more after Jhall's and McSnare's equipment/time use than mine, but seeing as you gave me a fairly positive review it's probably worth mentioning that this was mixed on an mBox and headphones (ATH-M50s) using only the default plugins that ship with PTLE and a single snare sample...
I can't really speak as a mix engineer as the vast majority of my paid work is tracking, but:
I can't emphasize enough the importance of getting a good sound when tracking (these raw tracks were really great and fun to work with, except maybe for the snare) as well as being able to get a decent balance with a minimum of fuss, fancy processing (both hardware and plugin) and time. I don't know what kind of environment you guys work in but since coming to NYC to do pop I've learnt the hard way that sometimes the reference mix you make at the tracking stage can make or break a song to an A&R. It can determine whether the song lives or gets nipped in the bud. In pop only a handful of songs that you track with songwriters track will get cut by the artist, and of those only a handful will be sent off to mix. You have to have things sounding good and balanced as soon as possible because while some A&Rs are good enough to know a good song regardless of the engineering, some A&Rs will get really put off if things aren't sounding nice when they stroll in at any point. I've had to learn this by having beatmakers and songwriters look like they want to kill me because I was gonna leave the balancing til "when I've finished tracking" and an A&R has passed through. Also the better the balance from the get go the better whoever's in the booth will track. Just a little early morning hours random insight!
But, since people were kind enough to listen to mine, some impressions. Disclaimer that I'm listening on headphones, am a tracking engineer and my notions of how things should balance (especially in terms of vocal levels) have been severely warped by working pop for two months... I'm also a firm believer that reverb should be missed when it's gone but never super-obviously heard in rock!
Before I go in too deeply, in most of these submissions I felt the vocals were too far back. I know it's an "indie" thing but every single engineer I've worked with over here has hammered into me that the vocal treatment is crucial to making something a bestseller, and that you can get away with a lot if the vocals sound amazing. Secondly, if I didn't say something good about your track I apologize - a lot of these mixes are passable but when you're trying to listen to all of them in one sitting and type comments you will invariable focus on the bad. It's great that so many people took part and I hope that everyone learns something from the process (me included). These views are purely my opinion and in no way a suggestion that you suck or that I can do better! (well.. listen to my submission and let me know!)
yoink - weird transition from the intro into when the band kicks in... sounds like slightly late panning automation move on the guitar? Otherwise I like the guitar sound and general balance, but the snare doesn't have enough beef for my liking. For some reason at the end of the track the backing vocals don't feel properly tucked behind the lead. But pretty good
caintorst - the track feels stripped of upper upper mids and treble overall... is your listening environment really bright? Also maybe a touch too much reverb, stuff felt a little bit cavey, for lack of a better word
Gabriel-F - trim your tracks dude! No A&R will wait 7 seconds between you hitting play and the first chord to coming in! Um, this has a lot of reverb, the drums lack definition and the whole thing is super mid heavy... If that's the sound you were going for then please don't take this personally but it's not really my thing. However, your vocals somehow fit nicely into your mix, considering how pronounced the low mids in the guitars are. Just not a sound I'm into
lluis - ohman! Yes, it pays to look at the format that the original files were... That said the I prefer the vocals at this pitch! I'm sorry man, I really can't give much comment on this because I was cracking up at the slowed down version and actually quite enjoying it at this speed..!
fala (? sorry guys I'm just going through the folder from the top, not the submission thread) - vocal is buried! If I didn't know the words from doing this myself and listening to other submissions I'd say that it's hard to understand the words under the thick guitars and snare hits. Guitars are super forward, and the the everything lacks "air". Also the kick feels super exaggerated
DMc - In the intro I hated the amount of verb on the guitar, but when the song kicks in it makes sense. Great overall balance but what's with the slapback?? (wait...looking back over the thread would you be McSnare?) I think the problem is that the new transients from the slapback interrupt the flow of the lead vocal... it's a shame because otherwise the balance is great
Rune - verb! So much verb! And the snare is too much pop and not enough body. HOWEVER one of the few tracks where (dare I say it) the vocal is floating too far in front
The Straws - intro has a weird distortion effect on it? I'm not too keen... but the rest of the mix would be ok if it didn't feel like it was pumping a bit and was lacking top end...
Teleric - too much beater click on the kick for my liking, overly accentuated by the reverb in the intro. For some reason the mix sounds disjointed, like everything is sitting in its own space (good) but not locking together (not so good)
Adam Miller - YES! Those vocals are in the right place. The cymbals seem a bit lost though? (I've just listened back to mine and realised I'm guilty of the same thing though...) The bass seems a bit slappy... where are you based?
JHall - The guitars are great but holy fucking RMS batman! Vocals seem to take a backseat to the guitars... This may be the result of being a tracking engineer but watching my meters constantly flash red made me feel a little queasy, and it may have been expectation bias from that but I feel like your mix was fatiguing to listen to all the way through. The instrument balance is great but the vocal just feels too low...
slash5969 - From the intro I could see that kick is gonna be a problem... drums feel a bit muffled maybe? Again, vocal feels obscured, for some reason I feel like your mix would have worked better with a less hyped kick and the vocals cutting through telephone vocal style. There's also almost no cymbals in the mix and everything seems really concentrated in the low mids...
Scott Featherstone - That kick sample is really strange... it seems to be truncated? The decay is not right on that. Toms feel weirdly overstated. Again, like a lot of these tracks, it feels like you've ignored everything above 12k... However, other than the toms for some reason the drum sound reminds me of Nirvana and that's not necessarily a bad thing.. the rest of the song has to match up to that though!
2pulse - again, vocals low compared to guitars... and the cymbals (especially crashes) are almost completely gone. There's no real sense of dynamic change between the verse and chorus, as in, nothing MORE happens in the choruses which leaves the whole track feeling flat...
DCombs - I really like the bite on the guitars. However as a result the other instruments feel subdued in comparison. The bass also feels like it needs a bit more in areas other below 100hz to give it more definition. The drums sound like they're pumping quite hard and, yet again, vocals are so down in the mix...
mkane - Nothing is punching through on the mix and everything feels like it's a bit behind a blanket. Worth maybe mentioning at this point that it feels like most people here are scared of bringing out frequencies above 10-12k... they are there and they need to be there for balance's sake. Again I'm curious as to how much is to do with people's ears and their listening environment... I can imagine a room with a lot of hard reflective surfaces would cause overly dark mixing
willf - I can't get your mp3 to load? Strange. Sorry
iCombs - the balance seems decent, maybe a bit too much on the bass guitar and snare (very snappy) but the whole thing seems crushed to hell... it feels robbed of transients. I tried listening to it at low levels and it feels like the mix is competing with itself
b-undo - I like what you were trying to do with the intro but for some reason it almost feels like the final frequency the flanger settled on set the tone for the rest of your mix. Just feels like everything needs to be bigger, somehow...
Meverylame - The guitars are weird dude, what did you do to them? No top end and a bit lacking in definition BUT I will say your vocals were just about high enough for me
h2o2 - considering how much you came off as a dick in your critiques (no need for personal attacks) I don't even feel like I should bother with yours... funnily enough your vocal is the right level but then the guitars are nowhere to be found and the drums are seriously screwed up by the snare sound... the balance is full of seriously frequency holes... ugh whatever, next!
mafigi - I really like what you tried to do in terms of making a huge dynamic change between the intro and everything kicking in... the transition is sloppy and the sounds either side I don't agree with but so far it's the only mix that tried to make such an ambitious dynamic leap. As for the mix itself... there are just huge gaps in the frequency balance, too much compression and reverb
hallams - guitars a bit fizzy in the intro maybe? Ok they work better when everything is in. Vocals are around the right level! The snare distracts me for some reason, there's no body for it and it pokes out of the track
BillyBehdaz - Vocals maybe even too loud (did I just say that after all my bitching?) The mix was really fatiguing, too much of everything, and I'm not just saying that because you're the however manieth mix I've listened to...
NelsonL - trim those first few seconds off! I know this isn't a professional context but it's a good habit to keep, if it's a ref mix that's being played to people and not just for the mastering house TOP AND TAIL. Mix feels like you balanced it ok then added a shitload of bass for no reason, which also made everything sound quieter
DanDigby - For some reason the mix feels dry, and even though I usually like my mixes really dry it just feels like there's not depth to it. The snare kinda goes "pok" too...
Graham - I quite liked this one... maybe the snare is too prominent because it's so toppy? It feels like you could dry it up a touch to give it a bit more aggression
southboundloco - Guitars are nice and big... but they're all I can focus on. The snare also has too much crack without the subsequent body
Gio-fixed - vocals didn't grab me, which is crucial. Seems bass-lite in my cans and missing some frequency where the bass should meet the guitar
Ok... my sincere apologies to those I didn't get to... my ears are exhausted. Also possible my last few comments are not as vaild because I've was in a session all day and then have spent the past however many hours listening to these mixes on cans.. hopefully I'll have some energy to do the rest tomorrow
Post by: Spike on March 14, 2010, 03:50:12 AM
| grantis wrote on Sat, 13 March 2010 23:48 |
Spike intro Guitar Panned right of center!!!! Well done (only since nobody thus far did it). Other than that, this mix is lackluster. Vocal too loud, drums distant, guitars quiet. |
Intriguing... thanks so much for taking the time to listen. Almost makes me want to bounce down again with vocals -1db and -3db and see whether you prefer either of those, especially since I seem to be complaining that most people's vocals are low. Sorry I didn't get round to yours, will try to get to it tomorrow
Post by: mafigi on March 14, 2010, 06:09:39 AM
| Adam Miller wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 01:30 |
Unfortunately I'm listening on headphones Mafigi - STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPRESSOR!! It's so flattened and distorted, I can't hear past that, sorry! |
Thanks for listening, I do not think that other listeners have heard all this compression you heard my mix to a proper control room? ...
Post by: Adam Miller on March 14, 2010, 06:29:01 AM
| mafigi wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 10:09 | ||
Thanks for listening, I do not think that other listeners have heard all this compression you heard my mix to a proper control room? ... |
No- just the cans I'm afraid... are we listening to the same mix- this is yours right?
http://www1.prosoundweb.com/imp/files/IMP24_mafigi.mp3
It feels like there's something biting into the rms region of the guitars- like they've been blasted through Vintage Warmer or something. And the drums are set quite far back in comparison as well.
Post by: mafigi on March 14, 2010, 08:33:20 AM
| Adam Miller wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 11:29 |
It feels like there's something biting into the rms region of the guitars- like they've been blasted through Vintage Warmer or something. And the drums are set quite far back in comparison as well. |
Thanks again for the review, the guitars are no eq, just a little bit of CL 1B on the guitars bus, and are pan different between them; on drums I tried to interpret what was played, with no trigger ..., the drums has a comp parallel bus with AC1, I This seems quite drum sound on the mix layers.
On the master bus: AC2, C4 and bx control (wide image)
If you happen to listen to the mix inside a control room, tell me if it seems consistent frequency response of the song.
Post by: Adam Miller on March 14, 2010, 05:49:37 PM
| Spike wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 07:29 |
The Way Studio, over near London Fields... but at the moment I'm in NYC doing nothing but pop/rap sessions which is a far cry from the rock and jazz back home, probably why I'm a bit rusty |
Good stuff, I think those kind of pop/rap tracking sessions are where some of the most interesting stuff happens in music right now... there's nothing like a producer turning up to a session with nothing but a laptop and logic and building a track from the ground up in a couple of hours.
| Spike wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 07:29 |
Thanks for the comments, I'm curious as to the "harder panning" comment as the rhythm guitars are panned 100 % left and right! |
Ha, I did actually listen to your mix twice trying to work out if the panning comment was maybe a bit dumb, but went with it anyway! Maybe it's more that the guitar in the center is too loud vs the others. Not sure, it's just something in there felt like it was bringing the overall width and separation of the mix in a bit.
| Spike wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 07:29 |
Before I go in too deeply, in most of these submissions I felt the vocals were too far back. I know it's an "indie" thing but every single engineer I've worked with over here has hammered into me that the vocal treatment is crucial to making something a bestseller, and that you can get away with a lot if the vocals sound amazing. |
In complete agreement- maybe this is a British vs US aesthetic?
I once quizzed a pretty legendary engineer about his vocal levels, and he told me that never in his 30+ year career had an A&R ever asked him to turn a vocal down. | Spike wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 07:29 |
... where are you based? |
I'm lucky enough to be up at AIR, and occasionally down at Strongroom. Cheers for the crit!
Ad
Post by: Hallams on March 14, 2010, 07:27:17 PM
My mix was ITB using Logic's and a few free plugins, Camelcrusher as a parallel on the drum bus and vox bus, the whole mix was parallel comped using rough rider. The vox had some of logic's tape delay and the vox verb was the bicasti PO64 impulse response in Space Designer. Rather than bounce in Logic, i sent the mix out through my Avalon 747 for about 2 dB gain reduction and a bit of eq and back into the box using the soft limit of the ensemble to get a bit of peak limiting.
One nagging question i still have is if the original recording was sped up a bit?? as i too found the vox more natural sounding whe played pack at 44.1?
Again thanks for all the work involved in the IMP.
Post by: Hallams on March 14, 2010, 08:10:36 PM
Post by: Spike on March 14, 2010, 09:06:49 PM
| Adam Miller wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 16:49 |
Good stuff, I think those kind of pop/rap tracking sessions are where some of the most interesting stuff happens in music right now... there's nothing like a producer turning up to a session with nothing but a laptop and logic and building a track from the ground up in a couple of hours. |
Yeah, I still can't decide whether that or the topline writers coming in and not just writing a ridiculously catchy song + all BVs in the same or less time is more impressive..! It has been an eyeopener. Wish the beatmakers were a bit less paranoid though, tracking vox against a 2track mp3 and making it all sit right is a nightmare.
Anyway, last few listens I didn't manage last night:
Fiasco - kick is too big, even in my fairly bass-lite headphones. If you picture your mix vertically (rising in frequency from top to bottom) then there's a hole both above and below the vocals. Chorus guitar leads are totally buried too and the mix feels right-heavy for some reason
Rankus - too much beater click perhaps? I think that might be why the reverb sounds odd on it. Snare feels like it's lacking body. Otherwise the balance is decent
Revolver 9 - kick is sub heavy... ok, now it's kicked in everything is too bassy. Weirdly enough you've got the vocals sitting at about the right relative level to the rest of the track.. just the rest isn't quite right.
Sriou - too little vocals and too much bass! More so than others... The guitars are tonally dull and something weird is going on with that snare sample - on some hits it sounds fine, on others it sounds metallic and a bit like a "clank". One of the few I let run to the end and again, top and tail your submissions people! The only time you can (and should) leave extra time around the music is if it's being sent to mastering
Grantis - nice drums, snare feels like it could be blended in a bit more? Depending on how modern of a sound you were going I'd say that the mix feels a bit too wet, which combined with the lack of attack on the guitars makes everything feel like blurry
DF - Nice but felt like the cymbals and air were completely gone.
Nizzle - enjoyed the feel of this one, except for the choice of snare sound... For me it doesn't match the rest of the sound you went for. Also the vocals felt like they could have done with just section by section automation just to make sure they didn't fall back when the guitars get thicker
Yoons - Feels like a slight gap where the guitars end and the bass start. Happy to hear cymbals but like a lot of these mixes everything feels congested in the lower mids
Music Junkie - the snare is way too slappy.. also feels like too much reverb on the kit. Guitars lacking bite and highend...
Greg Dixon - Other than the snare (needs a bit more body) I liked this one quite a bit...
I think that's everyone... as said before, a lot of these mixes were fine, but we're here to pick them apart, right? I think I'll be quite happy to not have to hear that intro again for a little while...
Post by: grantis on March 15, 2010, 01:24:21 AM
| Spike wrote on Sun, 14 March 2010 20:06 |
Grantis - nice drums, snare feels like it could be blended in a bit more? Depending on how modern of a sound you were going I'd say that the mix feels a bit too wet, which combined with the lack of attack on the guitars makes everything feel like blurry |
OK, that's now 2 comments that my snare needs better "blending" or that it "sticks out" a bit. I have such a hard time with that, because when I try to blend it more, it feels like it loses power.
Thanks for the comment!
Post by: Seb Riou on March 15, 2010, 08:23:34 AM
| Spike wrote on Mon, 15 March 2010 02:06 |
Sriou - something weird is going on with that snare sample - on some hits it sounds fine, on others it sounds metallic and a bit like a "clank" |
It's because it's not a sample, it's the original snare with room mics (Coles 4038's catching a speaker playing the track in my drum room)
Thanks for the time spent on that Spike !
Post by: Scott Featherstone on March 15, 2010, 06:57:29 PM
I definitely have some mid range issues to resolve with the new room.
Thank you all for your feedback.
Scott
Post by: revolver9 on March 16, 2010, 09:13:11 AM
I really need to listen through everybodys stuff, theres alot to learn from this.
Thanks J.Hall for this forum, these tracks were def alot of fun. To have my crappy mix listened to AND critiqued by such a talented group...well i'm pretty darn thankfull to you all.
Post by: fiasco ( P.M.DuMont ) on March 16, 2010, 05:42:19 PM
I am swamped at "regular" work, so I don't know if I will get to review everyone's submits.
I'll try, though.
Post by: j.hall on March 17, 2010, 11:00:44 AM
Rune
starts out pretty dark, but it opens up once the band kicks in. guitars feel a touch dark, but that might be cause the vocal and overheads are so bright. mix feels pretty balanced to me. i like the vocal FX, nice placement. i could stand to have the guitars more hyped up to fill in behind the vocal.
southboundloco
that verb at the top bugs me, but that's just me. vocal feels too quiet and a touch dark. (i got the vocal level wrong as well......rookie mistake.....it happens) something feels wrong in the lower mids. can't really pinpoint it. that snare drum is popping. i dig that. i think that kick drum is just too big, maybe that's what is pulling the mix down.
graham
top end feels kinda dark, but the drum overheads are above all that. vocal is inbetween. this means that mastering would have trouble balancing this out. over all balances are pretty good. the extreme subs are a bit big for my taste and the snare feels a little too robotic. when you do the sample, just set the "dynamic tracking" a bit higher. should smooth some of that out. maybe you did, i don't know. i kinda want to hear the guitars match the aggression of the snare. they just kind of sit there now, IMO.
revolver9
holy bowel movement batman. i think we have an acoustics issue here. the lowend is SO HUGE it's like a hiphop mix. i mean, the top end actually does come through, so kudos on that. wow, tchad blake would be proud of the effort......vocal FX feel a little 80's synth rock to me. man, if the bottom was cleaned up and the vocal FX were tamed down, this would be a good mix. the guitars feel really good.
rankus
you really "threw" this one back. feels like a hyped version of a 70's rock record. which is awesome, cause what you went for actually came across. in that vein, i might have gone a bit "plunkier" with the bass, and not so attacky with the kick drum. nice job though. toms feel good to. too bad about those overheads, if they sounded good you could have really made this thing hit.
mafigi
intro is weird. not the effects, but the timing of the band entering. vocal is really pushed back. maybe you meant to do that. bass guitar is pretty loud. the drum room doesn't really work for me. if you went a bit more "dry" with it, i could see it working. the mix is pretty wet.
reno
bottom end is pretty big, but there is still a good balance here. i'm sure mastering could work with this mix. i'm glad to hear attention paid to balancing the top end. vocal feels filtered up too high, and compressed in an awkward way. attack and release times are grabbing it funny. this is the first submission i would say is too bright, IMO.
DCombs
feels good. the room on the kick isn't my bag, but it's a decent room.bass might be a bit tucked back. guitars feels nice and big. wish the chorus lifted harder. doesn't lift at all now. vocal EQ doesn't match the overall top end of the music. this is all minor detail work (stuff you either overlooked, didn't care about, or haven't thought about) hopefully it's helpful, cause this mix is solid.
Gio
really thin mix. probably nothing below 200Hz here. if you filled out the bottom, this mix would be pretty solid. your chorus has a decent lift to it, which seems to be rare in all these submissions. kudos on that.
Eric H.
overall it's a touch too wet for me. it feels pretty good aside from that. a bit harsh in the top end. those overheads were rough to work with, i know. guitars have a nice bite to them.
Fiasco
that bass guitar is really up there. those overheads are rattling my fillings out. really bright.... if you tamed that down and got the bass under control this would be in the ball park. guitars feel really pushed back. EQ balance is decent otherwise. that snare feels a little "toyish" to me. just my take on it.
page 3 coming soon.
Post by: j.hall on March 17, 2010, 11:16:02 AM
| Quote: |
Reno Said: Whaouw... J.Hall How you make it? What do you use to inflate, enhance the sound like this Your guitars are... great! lots of harmonics and presence what's your secret... please tell me Hedd crane song? OTB mixing? analog summing? aphex?? |
thanks for the kind words. my mix has plenty wrong with it. totally missed the boat on the vocal level. rookie mistake.......
the guitars are just EQ'd, and they have the crane song phoenix plug-in on them
"guitar 3" has a compressor on it that's working fairly hard actually.
here is a pic of the plugs on my guitars.
guitar 1 and 2 are identical EQ's and crane songs. screen shot is left to right, guitar 1 (and 2), guitar 3, and solo.
there are a few other subtle things happening to the guitars as well, but they don't really amount to much other then depth of field and vibe.
hopefully i answered the question.....
Post by: Gio on March 17, 2010, 02:23:46 PM
It's obvious I've not yet solved some monitoring/room issues in this particular space, what with all the "thin", and "where's the bass" comments my submission has gotten.
As others have said, there's nothing much to add to what J. has already mentioned. And of course, from where I sit, I would consider many to be way heavy in the low end. I should have some time to write some crits in a day or two, if anyone cares.
And yes, Grantis, I would be another to pile on about the snare sample!
Cheers, all. Time to go try and tweak the room some more, or myself if I can't get this sorted out soon. 1 more year here, and I move, and get to start all over.......
Post by: Reno on March 17, 2010, 03:22:22 PM
| Quote: |
thanks for the kind words. my mix has plenty wrong with it. totally missed the boat on the vocal level. rookie mistake....... the guitars are just EQ'd, and they have the crane song phoenix plug-in on them "guitar 3" has a compressor on it that's working fairly hard actually. here is a pic of the plugs on my guitars. guitar 1 and 2 are identical EQ's and crane songs. screen shot is left to right, guitar 1 (and 2), guitar 3, and solo. there are a few other subtle things happening to the guitars as well, but they don't really amount to much other then depth of field and vibe. hopefully i answered the question..... |
You're the man...
I've never seen the phoenix plug-in by crane song before. I know the hardware HEDD that is a wonderful tool but this plug-in is pretty awesome...
Thank you for this answer!
Post by: mafigi on March 17, 2010, 06:03:12 PM
| j.hall wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 16:00 |
Page two of the submission thread, reviews: |
Thanks for the reviews J.Hall
Post by: Scott Featherstone on April 04, 2010, 08:54:49 PM
Post by: rankus on April 14, 2010, 08:53:13 PM
Shite, I've been absent from this thread too long! Thanks so much for your review J. You nailed it! It means a lot man... Thanks again. Cheers
Post by: tiller on August 24, 2010, 08:30:34 PM
First post here, and apologies for the slight derailment, but I am curious in checking out the IMP stuff (and hopefully participating in No. 25).
Is anyone else experiencing a redirect problem when trying to access the links in the IMP submission thread?
Cheers,
Adam